Magic in the Ancient World (with Dr. Luke Gorton)

Dr. Luke Gorton (University of New Mexico) talks about the vocabulary and concepts of magic in the ancient world. Check out the second half of this conversation on his new KZbin channel at / @wordsafari4611
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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[@JacksonCrawford]

Part 2, on Dr. Luke Gorton's new channel Word Safari: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eXrUpXmYra99l7M We will also be hosting a Patreon-exclusive Crowdcast chat with Dr. Gorton on Friday, October 30th at 1:00 p.m. (U.S. Mountain Time).

[@39MercFlathead]

In the 1960s, when I was at the Univ of Virginia studying anthropology, my favorite professor was Ed Winter who specialized in East Africa, and witchcraft, sorcery and magic. He made a definite distinction between witchcraft and sorcery. A sorcerer was someone who gained ordinary knowledge available to anyone who would dedicate enough time to study; in other words, plants, medicines and poisons. A witch was someone who had supernatural abilities and knowledge and usually used them for evil. He defined a witch as someone who hung by their heels in the forest at night and let enemy villagers into their village at night to wreck havoc. They were the opposite of normal humans who walked upright during the day, stayed in their bed at night and kept the village gates closed and safe. We still have the verb bewitch in modern English, but the verb ensorcel has almost completely disappeared along with the distinction between these two different types of knowledge. Great video. BTW, I started a linguistics program at CU Boulder about 20 years ago, having been told that my interest in historical linguistics would be supported. A few months after starting I was told, "We don't do that here" in a less than supportive manner. Wish my time there had coincided with Jackson's.

[@iz5808]

I love how you choose backgrounds for the videos, they're just stunning.

[@nirvanic3610]

True

[@Kitsune-dono]

Dr Crawford is also stunning

[@heartpumpsair]

I took Dr. Gorton's Magic and Ancient Religion class! It was awesome :)

[@Moonsong227]

The chant at the end could also be a traditional timer, like singing a song while washing your hands, for how long to put pressure on the wound, how long to wait before jostling him, etc. (Pretty sure we talked about this in *my* bio classes lol) it could even be for the benefit of the healer

[@jenniferandrew3373]

Chants are still used now. I was taught to use chest compressions to the beat of "Stayin Alive" in first aid class. Or think of singing "Happy Birthday" twice while washing your hands.

[@celtzen]

FWIW Aspen is a member of the willow family which has salicylic acid in its bark which is the natural version of the synthetic acetylsalicylic acid which is our asprin.

[@benstoyles1297]

salicylic acid is also a main ingredient of face washes to clear acne

[@celtzen]

@@benstoyles1297 natures anti-inflammatory

[@aidanfulton398]

Could you like boil the bark or something to make a drinkable tinture or a topical ointment?

[@hoathanatos6179]

@@aidanfulton398 Native Americans do make tea out of willow bark as a painkiller, but it tastes extremely bitter. Where I'm from they would mix berries and sumac into the tea to make the taste more tolerable.

[@MohamedSamir13]

13:10 we still have those "professional wailers" in egypt

[@invidusspectator3920]

We also have them in the Balkans, even though it's starting to slowly fade away as a tradition.

[@flannerypedley840]

I is a great tradition which has faded in other culture eg Ireland

[@greywuuf]

Please don't take this wrong .... all of your videos have been interesting and enjoyable, but your conversational and intersectional colabs (such as this) are outstanding. Love it and to you .... all the best , it sounds like you could really use it and I feel that you deserve it.

[@jojones4685]

I'm a New Mexico resident who just stumbled across this video and it's tempting me to go to college and meet this man

[@macnacailli]

" 'cuz she kind of caused the whole thing..." I know it's traditional to actually blame Helen, but I'm pretty sure Paris caused the whole thing.

[@liminal.thulean9012]

Looking at it from that perspective is fine but not really helpful. The events of the trojan war were fated. The gods toyed with men and Paris was likely going to choose Aphrodite because of her seductive qualities. Thinking about who caused it implies rational thought, which didn't exist. Although Paris chose to have the most beautiful woman, he wasn't aware that she was married and was fated to have her, just as Helen was then fated to end up with Paris thereafter. If we think rationally about it, the war can also be blamed on Menelaus who is the initiator of the war. Had he been rational, he would have let it go and found another wife but he wasn't and he had the concepts of kleos and time, which the modern world might describe as toxic masculinity, to worry about. The terrible fates could have perhaps been avoided on all sides too, had Agamemnon not been so obsessed with waging war that he sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to make it happen, which cursed the whole expedition. Technically only Aphrodite is to blame for her tricks.

[@hbvinje]

No, Helen made the choice. Paris did not abduct her

[@macnacailli]

@@hbvinje Paris made a choice when he made that deal with Aphrodite; Helen was auctioned off for an apple. The choice not to choose Paris was gone the moment the goddess made that deal. Her agency was not a consideration for Paris or for the goddess.

[@macnacailli]

@@lcmiracle Ya, The only right answer could have been, “Do any of you fine goddesses have a knife? Will give each of you a share.” 😁

[@anamatva]

hail eris lol

[@latieplolo]

When you were talking about the chanting helping the healing process, like the med student it reminded me of studies that have been done on the effectiveness of treatments for pain. It's been shown across multiple studies that even strong medications don't always have any effect on the experience of pain if the patient doesn't know that they're getting it.

[@setc12]

What a pleasure to hear two intelligent people talking about subjects they love. So much better than self-appointed influencers and other assorted talking heads.

[@faramund9865]

Don't be so nervous Dr. Gorton, you are entitled to your own knowledge and opinion. Don't collapse under peer pressure as what is 'correct' and what is not. And even when you say something you later think differently on, that is fine. People move throughout time and so do their views.

[@rookfreeman1089]

Please make a short video about Old Gutnish sometime. Thnk you for your videos

[@troelspeterroland6998]

Another example of magical abilities being ascribed to a neigbouring people is the colonial Caribbean where Euro-Creoles were often quite scared of the perceived magical abilities of Afro-Creoles.

[@BlazeLeeDragon]

Excellent video, one of the issues I've always had is today we try to lump so many different cultures and traditions under umbrella terms. I really feel like this does a dis-service to the ancient traditions and take a way from them. I will definitely check out Dr. Gorton's channel. Thanks for sharing.

[@robertl6196]

Very cool. Dr. Gorton seems like another great teacher. Subscribed.

[@Auriflamme]

In the west of Ireland 'professional' mourners were common practice even fairly well into the 20th century. The practice was called keening, from the Irish word caoineadh which means crying/wailing. The mourners were women who would wear black shawls and dresses and it was particularly common on the islands and in Connemara. The belief was that the gods (later God) would know how great the deceased was by the volume of mourners and the noise of their mourning.

[@magiazwiejskiejchaty]

Love from Poland. I have learned a lot thanks to you. I'll donate as soon as possible. Thank you for what You're doing.

[@NastySasquatch]

Really enjoyed listening to the two of you discuss this topic.

[@hopeechangee12345678]

By far the most fascinating topic on this channel.

[@benstoyles1297]

A way I think about magic is like legal practice: if you are uninitiated to it a contract is borderline idecipherable document of words which hold a huge amount of meaning which you can't immdiately expain, especially without the contextual knowledge of case law. Similarly the judicial process is full of obscure process and ceremony which makes limited sense until it's explained to you. If you understand the history, the language, the process it makes sense, but if you don't it's just magic words and scrolls and incantations.

[@benstoyles1297]

And as to whether it works? All law is a mutually agreed illusion after all.

[@MrFresco25]

Oide = chanting, recitation Oído = ear (Spanish)

[@Moonsong227]

So cool to see someone interested academically in this!

[@YouTubalcaine]

Ašipu! Abgallu! This conversation makes my brain happy. It's been a rare treat indeed. Thank you, fish-men.

[@chicagoman58]

Incredibly beautiful background!

[@jarrettraymond7765]

Hey im a big fan, im glad i got to be one of the first to comment, You keep rocking it.

[@corruptcatalyst4141]

I really cannot express how joyfully hilarious I find how well this channel combines my love of ancient history and gettin out into the back country.

[@pretzeljenkins7910]

this video is magical

[@sclair2854]

Another example of "border culture = kinda magic" can be found in Shakespear, where he gives the Welsh revolutionary Owain Glyndwr magic powers for seemingly similar cultural reasons

[@Dreoilin]

Fantastic video, I'll be sharing it with my Gaelic culture friends, many good comparisons!

[@ColetteNoir]

Subscribed to your channel and Word Safari. Very much enjoy your content. Love the beauty of your state!

[@TheBestThomasJay]

If heaven exists, I really hope it’s just walking through mountains like that and talking linguistics. Lol

[@setadriftonfishandchips]

Valhalla

[@sameash3153]

Heaven is a place on earth my man

[@anotherelvis]

Great subject

[@alexalexides8947]

The dead Patroklos demanding something in the Iliad, not Achilles. That scene breaks my heart, and I realize that was a slip of the tongue. Just giving dead Patroklos his due.

[@wordsafari4611]

Actually, they both do! Achilles doesn't die until after the Iliad, but when he does he demands the sacrifice of the Trojan princess Polyxena on his grave.

[@alexalexides8947]

@@wordsafari4611 Thanks for the reply, I was just zeroing in on the Iliad (as usual), and really enjoyed your presentation here. I've long been fascinated by that scene in Book 23 as such an early example of pondering of the spirit after death (I recorded a lovely reading of it which is the only reason I have a channel here), and how starkly that highlights the distance between life and the world of the dead for quite some time, as you describe in the video. Aside from the Odyssey, of course, when the demands become a bit less poignant (to me, at least). Thank you very much for the discussion above! Many of us stuck out of school thrive on such videos!

[@Dipovinnana]

In Taiwan there’s still people today who are hired to cry at the funeral as well

[@griffinbeaumont7049]

This thing about the duality of the word meaning 'to chant/to sing' can maybe also be seen in English? Like one can chant in a religious, but not necessarily magical sense, or even just because you enjoy that kind of singing, but if you're *enchanting* an object, you're most definitely doing magic, right?

[@flannerypedley840]

@@sarahgilbert8036 Of course they are

[@PeterParkersButt]

Oh my god Dr. Gorton! I took your Sex and Gender class last semester!

[@ChrissieBear]

Professional wailers are still a thing in some countries.

[@jonadams8841]

Yonael but not as popular as professional wrestlers!

[@nirvanic3610]

Nice lecture in a nice spot but the sound is kinda low.

[@TheHillsandTheRivers]

Have you heard of Earl Fontainelle's podcast the Secret History of Western Esotericism Podcast (SHWEP)? You might have an interesting interview with him on "magic."

[@zmaja]

12:59 Very interesting! In some parts of the world, professional criers still exist and can be hired. I've seen them as a child. Yes, it's both weird and disturbing. But the fact it's an ancient thing puts a different perspective on the phenomenon :D I'm from the Balkans.

[@artcollins6968]

In the New Testament (Koine Greek), pharmakeia means "sorcery, magic arts."

[@klausolekristiansen2960]

Man skal lære så længe man har elever.

[@petrosnikolaou7316]

Greetings from Greece

[@Ratnoseterry]

The epoide song over Odysseus leg is the same idea presented where a song is sung after the binding of a horses leg, which I believe is sang by Odin. All of these ideas/stories/fables/myths overlap, saying culturally is a mistake. It is but one culture, with different languages geographically. It is our perception of nations and nationality that creates muddle.

[@jonathanswoyer5218]

I like the beer reference, particularly, since there is evidence indicating that women were the first brewers

[@vt2788]

I wanted to switch to a football match, then I heard Jackson say "völva"..

[@MarkhamShawPyle]

Gentlemen, this is excellent, in both parts and both sides and on both channels. (I’d be rejoiced were you to revisit it at some point, post-pandemic or with a link, with Dr Francis Young FRS … though if it’s all in one place, I suspect an East Anglian may want oxygen in the Rockies.) I rather think there are some aspects of recent US Protestantism that have in fact reverted to a do ut des theology; I agree that, whether as to sexes, tribes, neighbors, or the quick and the dead, we are dealing here with literally liminal spaces. What I wonder is this: as regards, say, waulking songs, sailors’ shanties, weaving- and rowing-chants, and so on, or anything to do with rhythmic and repetitive work: might not some ancient epaoidic rituals be in fact a form of τέχνη, akin to the pipe or the drum aboard a galley, or certain pop songs used to get CPR chest compressions right?

[@GaryDunion]

Does anyone know anything about how the plant-based medicine "pharmakon" became "phamakos," the ritual exile or human sacrifice? I can see how obviously the pharmakos was meant to help the city in some way, so in that sense it was a remedy. But that's still a big enough jump in usage to make me thing there must be some very interesting history and/or linguistics bridging the gap between the two concepts!

[@anthonywritesfantasy]

Curious - have you ever interviewed a Sumerian linguist? Your channel led me down quite a few rabbit holes, including Enheduanna.

[@GraemeMarkNI]

Great conversation! On the witch of Endor, I heard Bart Ehrmann say recently that they didn’t call up Samuel’s spirit, but rather his body through necromancy, because the Israelites didn’t believe in spirits or an afterlife. What do you think?

[@flannerypedley840]

Would love to hear more opinions on this.

[@tristanholderness4223]

-akon looks a lot like all the other Indo-European suffixes in -k (i.g. -ikos, -ach in Irish, -y in English) and pharm- does have the right shape for an Indo-European root. Apparently *bher- "to scrape" has been suggested, but the vocalism is odd there, in the Ø-grade with an m extension it ought to give phram not pharm. The form we see would suggest something more like **bhh2er-m- (with the m possibly an extension or part of the root proper), but I don't think this is otherwise attested. Given the unusual *bhh2- initial cluster required, pre-Greek definitely seems more plausible, but I'm not sure if the -akon is necessarily evidence in that direction

[@kena3234]

Did anyone think of that Curb your Enthusiasm episode at 13:30 ?

[@pricklypear7516]

Ha!!! I wonder how many people caught the significance of the wolf opening. Go, Lobos!

[@paladintrist4n595]

Hey Mr. Crawford, do you know any old Norse command words? I tried searching through your videos but couldn’t find what I was looking for. I want to train my new puppy with Norse commands like “sit” “stay” “come”

[@stellanathaniel3198]

"Old Norse Dog Commands" should have what you're looking for: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXSuY3isqZWKZqs

[@lughlongarm76]

@@stellanathaniel3198 even better! I didn’t know he addressed this already.

[@buttecheekums1306]

How were owls viewed in old norse

[@philljj2524]

i was expecting hot wings and trivia

[@aegirkarl1411]

Luke Gorton, Hogwarhs New Mexiko?

[@yensid4294]

👍

[@Jim-Mc]

We need a crossover between these guys and semiticist /assyriologist Dr. Michael Heiser.

[@redheadache1959]

goetia- wail! I've also seen it referred to as Howl Howler Howling! associated with talmud etc yikes Thank You both! Respectfully, S. Sprague

[@sicksour7791]

dr. crawford looks like a video game dad

[@EmberLeo]

So...Goetia... wailer -> professional mourner -> necromancer -> demonologist? *fascinating*

[@Fricker112]

74th

[@tompatterson1548]

Are you sure *bʰh₂ermh₂k- wouldn't be a valid IE root?

[@seribelz]

Luke's voice reminds me of Skallagrim for some reason

[@bullvinetheband7260]

Ancient people were born into a world of magic their were incantations at birth it was everywhere for them that's why their is so many different words that mean the same thing.

[@Tsotha]

Speak of the devil, I just finished re-reading Marija Gimbutas' "The Language of the Goddess" and in that book Gimbutas often speculates about which elements in Ancient Greek religion might be holdovers from the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the area. Which takes her across A LOT of the same topics as is discussed in this video.

[@andersbenke3596]

It seems to me that the ancients would have shared mr Crowley's definition of magic as “the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will”, at least if we define will in a perhaps broader term than Crowley did in that particular context. Be it song, necromancy, prayer or what have you, I get from this interview that magic, as we would call it, was whatever worked.

[@FranciscoFum446]

Is Galdr and Goetia related in more than concept? Is there a shared Indo-European connection, perhaps an etymological connection? We have a very interesting word in Afrikaans called goël, which people use to describe poltergeist activity or activity connected to Tokoloshe folklore from African tradition. I have a feeling "goel" is related to or somewhat cognate to galdr or rather the version found in other Germanic languages. Afrikaans, of course, deriving from Dutch.

[@13sempere]

Goël must be cognate to english "ghoul". In any case afrikaans is a wonderful language ;)

[@FranciscoFum446]

Interesting. And it is possible the Afrikaans word is cognate. But Ghoul in English ultimately is from an Arabic word. Indicates a kind of cannibalistic desert demon. On the other hand, galdr in Old Norse and Galdor in Old English, goes to Pgmc Galdraz. Goes to PIE ghel. From which comes not only Galdraz but also Galana, golijana and related. A cluster of words which gave a meaning of rushing wind, incantation, yelling and echo. Afrikaans words like galm (echo) and English gale (wind) comes from that same cluster. Also Afrikaans gil (yell). Galan and gala as well. I think it's possible the Goël is related to this group. Then again, strangely enough, Afrikaans does have borrowings from Arabic, including the word for unbeliever used as racial slur. Would be interesting to see a more expert opinion. There is less available on Afrikaans etymology than for English.

[@skitykittycat]

I'm a heathen who's been getting into magic and this video is super helpful and informative!

[@Altrantis]

Laymen tend to have a sort of magic view of science and scientists even today.

[@stanlibuda96]

Sub #130

[@vinlandreserve7830]

Jackson's hair is like a helmet

[@faramund9865]

INTERESTING that you guys speak of existing cultures before the Greeks settled there from which they took words. I noticed a lot of people are dismissive of the theory that the same happened with Germanic languages but at a much larger scale. They'll say 'oh but a lot of those words we've now found an Indo-European root for'. Is this one of those 'but akshually's'. Where people just replace one myth with the other because they are overly skeptical?

[@MushVPeets]

Across the Atlantic gets you to the land of the dead... so are we Americans all in the Underworld, then? Cynical jokes aside, does this mean that you two are literally sitting in some part of Elysium? Sure looks like it.

[@WtCBoston]

This shows how magic is fake and all the false gurus of today are pathetic. Fake blood magic and fake spells and fake methods. You're the best in America Mr Crawford