*MAJOR UPDATE* - The MINOR ISSUE: Changes to Italian Citizenship by Descent & Alternative Processes

[@joemanginelli2972]

Gentlemen, Thank you so much for doing this episode of the ICP. There are a lot of nervous people who have waited and waited only to feel as though their hopes have been squashed. I never lost faith that Marco and the team at ICA would find a way to make it all happen, as well as calm some very jittery nerves. Well done guys. Thank you so much.-Joe

[@RachelDavis705]

I waited four years for my appointment, spent lots of money and now I'm screwed. Thanks, Italy!

[@salvatoreemma]

Your channel is a watchtower for Italian citizenship seekers.

[@donnalong7260]

Thank you Marco and Rafael.... your podcast is so helpful. I have come so close to sending in all my documents to my DC consulate and the Minor Issue has sent me spinning. I feel positive that IDC will find a new route for me to apply.... probably through the court. My advisor, Erika has been an amazing advisor through this process and Marco and Giulia... you are all very skilled in your expertise! Thank you. Donna

[@maureenfullan7866]

I am in the process of getting my Italian citizenship by descent and unfortunately this new circoloare applies to me. However, I am using ICA and they are unbelievably on top of things. I have worked with Lisa and now with Selene and they are incredible. I do not feel worried at the moment because I know I have options and I have so much confidence in the expertise of the people at ICA. Lisa and Selene, you are absolute superstars. Sono davvero grata di avervi trovato. Grazie mille per tutto. 🙏🤩🥰

[@Behemoth66]

If your attorneys know what they’re doing = you shouldn’t have any issues. My case was accepted today and it cost only $6500 total and they go to court for me

[@TS-ei9qm]

​@@Behemoth66was this through ICA, as well? If so, was this the full service package? I'm trying to better understand what the costs are associated with using an agency. Thank you!

[@GotUrRain]

My facebook group is melting down right now, good thing i got you on my side Marco !

[@Forleaftaback]

Thank you for more information! I've been trying to get an appointment IN Boston for 2 years! This give me some hope. Ty

[@Behemoth66]

How so if I may ask? I’m a minor case so I’m curious

[@pumuckl0]

If you've been waiting that long then you could probably file a court case instead. Might be more expensive but could be a blessing in disguise. Best of luck to you!

[@markmasi9024]

This was very informative. It was great to hear the clarification that the circolare/memorandum of the Ministry is not legally binding and but rather a directive to Italian Public Offices and that it does not impact court cases involving Italian citizenship by descent. The “minor ruling” of the Supreme Court of Cassazione has been upheld in the Lower Courts of Torino, Teramo, and L’Aquila. While it is true that court cases outside of Rome in which the minor issue is present are still being won the Supreme Court ruling is having an impact. Before proceeding in Court with a minor issue it’s best to see if such cases have been denied in the respective provincial court and if so if more than one judge ruled in this manner.

[@chrisclocker]

Maybe some questions to answer for the next episode. I am curious about ICA's stance for those with ongoing "minor issue" applications at consulates. Should we withdraw our pending applications? Additionally, for those recently declined by a consulate due to a 'minor issue,' can they still pursue a court case? Are there any ramifications for applying via court after a consulate rejection? Finally, does being rejected by a consulate for a minor issue affect our ability to apply through the courts? Always appreciate your content, thanks!

[@anthonyguardino9268]

My GGGG grandfather came over and didn’t naturalize for over 40 years! His kids were all in their 30s when he naturalized so I got very lucky!

[@KiaY619]

We were unable to get an appt at the Chicago Consulate and so ICA is pursuing our case through the Italian courts. We have this "Minor Issue" so fingers crossed!!! Chiara is awesome, BTW!

[@BeyondAestheticsAZ]

I’m working with her as well. Just finishing apostille. I’m hoping the next steps go as easily as it seems.

[@Toolwise]

This is tough, my application was submitted June '23, pending at a consulate

[@Dolcedreamstizi]

@@Toolwise good luck!!!

[@microsoftbighard]

😂 maybe this is the hottest video of it’s category - hopes dreams and hearts broken, probably our comments are being read.

[@Japan323i]

Thanks for the timely updates- q: GGF didn’t naturalize- CONES still counts as proof of nothing found in search?

[@MrCrazz23]

Those who have to switch from the great-grandfather's line because he naturalized while your grandfather was still a minor, to the great-grandmother, that may put you in the 1948 case situation since the female line wasn't recognized. I know you have some videos on 1948 cases but it would be good to mention that and give any updated info on what to do if that's the case.

[@jerryl8281]

Hi Guys. Love the show. I just got assigned Ivana Capone out of Naples for my case! Hope all goes well.

[@norlandsq]

Although it’s clear to me, when Attorney Permunian says “an ancestor became naturalized,” he should have been more specific as “naturalized in a foreign Country such as the US or Argentina.”

[@lorenlinck4345]

I found this to be a little confusing. Are you saying that in the case where, example, the Italian born grandfather was naturalized after birth of their child but before that child reached the age of 21, the chain is broken? If yes, this is being applied at consulates but not in intalian courts?

[@pumuckl0]

Yes, that is correct. It would impact applications submitted to consulates or the comune that have not yet been approved, but it is not a directive for the court system. Court judges are free to rule as they see fit and this would not be binding for the court. It is possible that some individual judges might look to that as a reason to reject, but that remains to be seen.

[@JsRazza]

I am currently going through the process with ICA and my appointment was supposed to be Oct, 24th. This is so upsetting. But, I am confident this is just a bump in the road.

[@josephcozza3117]

Most likely if you have a minor issue your application will be rejected. This is due to a change in the interpretaion of the 1912 ruling. Your fine if you don't have the minor issue.

[@hondafemme]

Thank you, Marco and Rafael!

[@timlinator]

My grandfather was 13 when his father my great grandfather naturalized. My Italian citizenship was recognized just over a year ago and received my passport just about a year ago.

[@jesicazamora5593]

Over a year ago, this wasn't happening 😅😅😅

[@timlinator]

@ I was concerned it might be retroactive.

[@angelaa6498]

Felt like a punch in the gut when I heard this as I was gathering my documents. Mother born in Italy, naturalized in the US in Feb 1985...just 10 months before my 18th birthday of the same year. Now my line is cut. My three older siblings, that are close in age, all qualify though. In fact, one of my sibs already obtained her Italian citizenship. Now I feel like I am not a part of my own immediate family. Awful feeling, but I will move on, of course. Just sucks to feel left out.

[@jorgemaestro98]

I'm confused as to what's changed, is it basically that if the Italian naturalized while the next in line was a minor they no longer qualify? Your siblings qualify solely because they were at the age of majority? So for example my father has a similar story to yours, was a minor when they naturalized, meaning he and I are no longer eligible?

[@Calax93]

I saw another comment of a case where they got a lawyer and they were approved also it may not even come up keep trying

[@General-83-888]

Can you comment on how this might apply to adult children of already recognized individuals but the original application had a minor issue? My dad was recognized in 2018 and my application is pending.

[@josephcozza3117]

Within a week of the new minor ruling on October 3, 2024, US consulates have already started to reject new applications where a naturalization occurred when the next in line was a minor. The same will now be true for anyone who applies directly at a comune in Italy. That is why ICA (as well as other service providers) are going to now pivot and focus primarily on getting clients to go through a court if they have a minor issue case or valid 1948 case. Yes, the judiciary in Italy does not have to follow this ruling. Yet. This video is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding what this means for people who want to apply in Italy or at their consulate. Those particular routes to dual citizenship are now closed if you have a minor issue in your line of ascent. The courts may not be as great an option as ICA is suggesting here. Some regional courts including Rome, Palermo and Messina have already rejected cases with the minor issue. It will be a matter of time for us to see how other regional Italian courts will rule in light of the Interior Ministry's new interpretation of the 1912 law. Bottom line, going through Italian courts is expensive so be sure you've got a clean case without any minor issue.

[@pumuckl0]

I don't think people have to completely avoid filing minor cases in court. As long as a good number of cases are successful and people are aware that it is not a guarantee, some people are still willing to take that risk and spend that money to try. Any decent lawyer in this space will give you a success estimation before proceding.

[@arnodivalentin5639]

does the alternative ansestor have to be living in the U S, or can you use an ansestor that was born in Italy and never migrated to any onther country?

[@hondafemme]

QUESTION: When you apply for dual citizenship to a local court (1948 case) and you have more than one eligible ancestor - are you allowed to include multiple ancestors to see which one gets approved or must you apply using only one at a time???

[@pumuckl0]

You can only use one ancestor and your case is centred around proof of blood line for that ancestor. If you have more than one 1948 case ancestor and they are both equal (neither was a minor and you can easily get vital records for both), you might want to look at which regional court each would be filed in. Should have a lawyer look at both ancestors to see what they think.

[@johnatyoutube]

Thank goodness for your channel!

[@onetry7406]

How do they do this to something so fundamental to Italian law?

[@robertrosini762]

My appointment is tomorrow. No minor issue. Several name discrepancies. Fingers crossed 🤞

[@pumuckl0]

How did it go? Well I hope!

[@robertrosini762]

@@pumuckl0 It went very well! No homework! It should be official in approximately one year and then I can get an Italian passport!

[@microsoftbighard]

@@robertrosini762at a consulate? Didn’t include the minor age issue?

[@robertrosini762]

@@microsoftbighard Yes at consulate. No minor issue. It was discussed briefly in passing and they said that they won't even take an application with the issue. I'm very sorry if this happens to be your case.

[@jonathangennace2535]

Thank you for this video, what a relief.

[@sully5]

Thanks for the timely update.

[@DanielCarroll-m1e]

So it seems that my Grandfather, who was born in Bari, became a naturalized citizen as a child when his parents moved to America and became citizens. But that also means my Great Grandmother was naturalized without consent. This all happened in the early 1900's. So I would pursue citizenship through the 1948 situation via my Great grandmother?

[@microsoftbighard]

Handy, lucky I saw this. Might have to cancel my appointment.

[@brunellacarlberg6222]

What about those that naturalized and then regained their citizenship and are now dual citizenships? If they regained their citizenship when their minor child was later an adult, can that adult child still become a citizen?

[@brunofacchin3354]

never mind the passport, getting an appointment is a big hurdle in itself. You find out you get the appt and the date is a year or more later.

[@nightengale2123]

Thanks for the clarity. I had just started working on the dual citizenship process before this minor ruling came out. Actually, prior to this ruling I had two paths I could pursue through both my maternal grandparents and was going to take the path through my grandfather's line. My grandfather was born in Italy in 1899 and immigrated to the US with his parents both born before 1861 in 1913 when my grandfather was a minor. Neither of this set of great grandparents ever naturalized, and my grandfather naturalized as an adult which I suspect was sometime after he married in 1926 my 18 year old US born grandmother who was a child of two Italian Immigrant parents that naturalized when she was a minor. My mother was US born in 1928, and I find it highly unlikely my grandfather naturalized before marriage as marrying my US born grandmother made that path easier. But, since they were only married two years when my mother was born, I also highly doubt my grandfather was naturalized before she was born but when she was still a minor. When I am able to track down my grandfather's naturalization documents I will have a better idea of my dual citizenship eligibility status. Again, thanks for sharing this info.

[@joeypapas6236]

So I applied for citizenship in September of 2023, and got confirmed September of 2024. I have a brother who has an appointment set for December of 2024. We quality because our grandmother was born 4 months before our great grandfather applied and received American citizenship, and renounced his Italian citizenship. Does this disqualify him from potential citizenship?

[@amycardinale858]

All 4 grandparents born in Sicily. Both parents born in USA. All grandparents naturalized while their children were under 21. My father obtained Italian citizenship in 2001. Can I still get citizenship or does the minor issue now prevent that?

[@michaellowski7172]

You can still get it because you can get it from your daddy baby girl

[@CynthiaWithLove]

I'm so grateful I got mine and my sons before the world went haywire.

[@davidscott8638]

My mother was born in Italy and naturalized in 85 when I was 7 years old, however, she regained her citizenship in 1995 when I was 17 years old. My guess is that since she regained and I was still a minor I should be fine. Any thoughts?

[@harveypolanski755]

What is the percentage of success for cases that have the minor issue in Italian courts?

[@pumuckl0]

This is difficult to answer because it's in flux and also depends on the court. Overall, the success rate is still relatively high, however for certain courts (like Rome) the success rate is low. There are also some courts that were approving all of these cases but have now had some rejections relating to certain judges.

[@mlaiuppa]

Can the definition of "minor" be challenged? I did some research and the age of consent and marriage can be as young as 14 years of age. Can that be used to challenge the cutoff age of a minor under this new ruling? For instance if my Dad was 14 before his Father attained his naturalization, could a case be made that if my Dad is old enough to marry he is old enough to decide if he wants to retain his Italian citizenship or not? Seems like either a gray area or a loophole. BTW the same age of consent pertains to the state in which he the family were living when his Father was naturalized. His Mother did not become naturalized until 1952, when my Dad was 23.

[@theroyalbureau]

Such a horrible ruling. Italy is shooting itself in its foot (boot?).

[@norlandsq]

We need to thank the current right wing government for this new rule.

[@TimeSpace1]

@@norlandsq certainly makes me think.. i really liked meloni initially..

[@Dolcedreamstizi]

They don’t care look at the state of the county. What are they doing to create jobs and wealth? Nothing, they perpetuate a system that keeps Italy so ooor the young have to leave for pay/opportunites. The economy gets worse but they refuse to move forward and make process. Stick to the old ways, discriminate against first gen Italians simply to make less work in the embassies and consulates. This is apparently the Italian way

[@reillykat]

Shooting itself how? Apparently the consulates were being overwhelmed, as were the comunes. How is that good for Italy?

[@Dolcedreamstizi]

@@reillykat god forbid they have to work hard

[@giovanniserafino1731]

I was recognize an Italian citizen 20 years ago through the Italian consulate in Houston, Texas. Once I presented my documents by mail, I was recognized in less than 4 weeks. My case was rather simple. Grandparents born in Italy, migrated to the United States. My parents were born in the United States while my grandparents were still Italian citizens. Hence, Italian citizenship was passed on to my parents, and then to me, Unfortunately, today in Italy there seems to be a movement to restrict recognition of Italian citizenship de Jure sanguinis and make it more difficult because of political and cultural reasons. Why are children of foreigners born and raised in Italy denied Italian citizenship until they are 18 or 19 years old, while ancestors of Italian citizens who have never been to Italy, who do not speak Italian or know very much about Italy are automatically Italian citizens? I understand there is a proposed referendum to restrict and change Italian citizenship laws.

[@JohnCash001]

Talking about the CONE would be important, with this minor issue everyone may need one? The backlog for this is INSANE! I hope they can clear it with in 6-12 months but might be 1 1/2- 2 years

[@Frank-n4y]

Future FAQ: Will this affect the children of a parent who has already received Italian citizenship through the minor process?

[@josephcozza3117]

If the children are under the age of 18 get them registered in AIRE immediately. Otherwise, if they're older than 18, then unfortunately their line is cut as a result of the new interpretation of the 1912 ruling.

[@reillykat]

@@josephcozza3117 Please cite where the Circolare says this? It doesn't sound correct, since recognition of JS citizenship means a person has always been Italian, so when that person had kids, they were born to an Italian citizen.

[@gregrebis3338]

Thank you guys.

[@CherylFry-c4e]

I received my Italian citizenship via Jure Sanguinis and have my Italian passport. My citizenship & passport are in my birth name. Since I am married and changed my name, do I need to have my Italian passport changed? It took so long to get the citizenship & passport, I am very hesitant to make any changes

[@itsmyturnnow-p1o]

How would I go about applying at a court in Puglia? Could I apply at any court in the entire Puglia region or does it have to be the exact town they were from? And I am still not clear...if my mother naturalized in Canada before I was born but I was still a minor, is this how the line gets broken, or is it dependent on HER parents not having naturalized anywhere outside of Italy?

[@pumuckl0]

It would be filed with the regional court that is closest to the town or comune where your ancestor is from.

[@jvmt8719]

I think the Tribunale di Bari hears citizenship cases for anyone with a 1948 case involving an ancestor born in Puglia. I was going to file there, but the minor issue is making me attempt to work with a different, very complicated line (but that doesn't have the minor issue).

[@pumuckl0]

​@@jvmt8719 Good luck with the new line! Hopefully you can get everything you need and it's smooth sailing.

[@jvmt8719]

@@pumuckl0 Thanks! I'm trying. The main complication is that my GGM (first American-born ancestor) was born in Oklahoma before they had civil birth registration, and the church where she would have been baptized burned down when she was a child. I'm working on getting a declaratory judgment to remedy the lack of documentation for her birth, since OK doesn't issue delayed BCs for the deceased.

[@michellereyn]

Yes wasted years of money so i could work and buy property in italy. Now minor rule i will need a lawyer now for a 1948 case so upset

[@giiggii11]

All the people that have already applied YEARS AGO and are still waiting should be exempt!!!! Especially when this process cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!

[@RickVlaha63]

In July of this year, my wife received confirmation of her Italian Citizenship by Descent (under the "old" rules...Her Maternal Grandfather Naturalized to the US AFTER my wife's mother's birth, but BEFORE her mother was an adult.) In order for our children (ages 24 and 26) to receive recognition of their Italian Citizenship by descent, will they be required to prove their connection just to their mother (my wife), or would they need to prove it all the way back to the Italian-born ancestor? If the latter is the case, I assume they would no longer be eligible.

[@reillykat]

*IF* she has Juris Sanguinis citizenship, that means she has always been an Italian citizen, since she was born. So when she gave birth, she was an Italian citizen. That is the standard understanding of JS citizenship, and I don't believe the Circolare in question changes that.

[@RickVlaha63]

@@reillykat Thank you! This is my hope and my understanding, however I received a response from a JS consultant (not a lawyer) who thinks our adult children WILL have to go back to the original Italian-born ancestor, which would disqualify them under the new Circolare. Would love to hear what Marco says. It MAY just be too early for anyone to say definitively. 🙏

[@nataliesmargiassi2585]

Our 1948 case with minor issue was rejected in the Rome court in June of this year.

[@neilmadero2816]

Uff...Do you have any options left? Can you appeal to a higher court?

[@Bessintheworld2]

Oh no - I have a similar case but will be in Napoli with Permunian as my attorney 🤞

[@neilmadero2816]

​@@Bessintheworld2 Have you been pursuing the 1948 case all along? We are pivoting to this approach, so any insight would be greatly appreciated (e.g. how long does it take to get on the court calendar?, is Permunian representing you through power of attorney?, etc) THANKS

[@TimeSpace1]

looks like my GGF naturalized in 1931, gramps was born in 1919... GGM born 1893.. doesnt look like she ever filed to naturalize herself willingly.. she died in 1942. curious if im elgible through her if my GGF rules out under this new interpretation (not a law btw). Both are from Palermo.

[@pumuckl0]

@@neilmadero2816 It doesn't take very long to get on the court calendar and, in most cases, not very long to get a judge assigned to your case. But it can take quite a while for the hearing and for the judge to issue a ruling. Depends on which regional court it is and the court workloads. Mine was in Palermo and they have an extra step there between the initial hearing and the ruling that other courts don't seem to have. That added quite a bit of time to my case.

[@CHess-fq7bt]

Thank you for this episode. I started trying to locate documents near the end of 2020 and have been going back and forth with USCIS since then. I'm currently awaiting the Certificate of Non-Existence from USCIS since they are unable to locate final proof of naturalization for my father. If the certificate is issued to me, will I still be able to apply for Italian citizenship by descent? I did reach out to ICA in either August or September 2020 and Marco suggested I obtain naturalization information first before moving any further. Thank you!

[@pumuckl0]

If there are no records of naturalization and he didn't do anything that would result in him losing his Italian citizenship (like getting certain government jobs or joining the military), then I think you should be good to go. Might want to check with the comune to make sure that it doesn't have any records of him renouncing to them, but you may not need to. ICA can probably tell you if that's necessary.

[@linamonreale5129]

Mine is pending due to homework

[@johnphillips4815]

If both parents of the minor are Italian and the mother's naturalization was involuntary, does the father's naturalization still cut the line? If not, do both consulates and courts allow this path?

[@Bangle9]

Going via the mother who was born prior to 1948 means you have to hire an attorney and do a 1948 case via your ancestor’s regional court.

[@Bangle9]

The father’s line is broken at least via the consular route

[@avatara6470]

Ius Sanguinis has already been loosened and weakened in the last decades, it should be enforced more.

[@jacquelinegreazzo1538]

I have to switch from my GF to my GM - now this becomes a 1948 case. My Mother was 32 ( born in 1923) when my GM naturalized - How much does it cost for a 1948 case if we have all of our documents? - Thank you

[@Bangle9]

From what I have heard, ballpark estimate is about $6-8K. If you bring family members into the lawsuit, you can split the cost.

[@happytosti7715]

I’m going through my great grandfather who naturalized in 1940 however my grandfather was adult however my father was a minor. Does this rule apply?

[@josephcozza3117]

If your GF was an adult over the age of 21 when his father naturalized then you're fine. It doesn't matter that your father was a minor in this case.

[@MargarettCentrella]

Hi I’m confused- my grandparents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the US. My grandparents got the US citizenship or naturalization in the US when my mother was under 21 years of age. Does that mean that I cannot apply for dual citizenship if my mother was over 21 years of age, does that make a difference?

[@Chris-e3y]

I believe if your grandparents became U.S. citizens while your mom didn't yet reach 21, you can't get dual citizenship. You can't apply. But it's best to hire a lawyer. That's what I did. My lawyer knew about this issue a long time ago and we used my great-grandparent that wasn't naturalized until my grandfather was over 21 years old. Most people don't want to buy professional advice and they like to "go cheap" and get all of their information from facebook groups or some other place. Just hire an attorney. I've seen people waste years doing it themselves, only to now find out they are locked out due to this minor issue, when they could have already had citizenship if they used an attorney. Remember, the most expensive things in life are free.

[@jacquelinegreazzo1538]

As of right now, the Minor Issue ruling states that if your mother was under 21 when her (Italian citizen) parents naturalized, your lines are unfortunately cut. If your mother was over 21, you can still pursue your italian citizenship by descent.

[@dalewun]

Thank you Marco for detailing the situation. Any idea what the success rate is for a minor case in Potenza?

[@sirdesancti]

My ancestor is also from potenza

[@Bangle9]

Same. I just chatted with a fellow who won his 1948 Case, March 2024, in Potenza court. No minor issue tho.

[@brunofacchin3354]

regardless of what documents you have

[@fjbassani1]

its a shame some companies who are in the business of Duel citizenship are blowing this off and saying "Don't worry it doesn't apply to you or the US consulates" They are afraid of the huge financial loss in there Niche Business coming down the road

[@Dolcedreamstizi]

@@fjbassani1 are they still saying not to worry? I’ve not heard from my service provider this past week and I’m getting really stressed about all of this.

[@fjbassani1]

@@Dolcedreamstizi My service provider was usually very good at getting back to me in the past but I had to leave 3 messages this week. In my case I will hopefully be able to go back to my Great grandfather who never naturalized . But I think they know there is no route forward with Minor cases now (thats why there ignoring my calls)

[@pumuckl0]

The service providers are also likely overwhelmed with consultations from people that have/would have filed through the admin path but are now trying to determine their court prospects.

[@vincent4810]

For us who got our citizenship already, this ruling won't invalidate our citizenship.

[@giiggii11]

What about a refund???? We've been taken!!

[@ItalianCitizenshipAssistance]

Hello @giiggii11, unfortunately we only see a username here on youtube and are not able to confirm you are one of our clients. If you are a client of ItalianCitizenshipAssistance(dot)com., we advise you to contact your case worker to share your concerns or to fill out the contact form on our website and we will respond ASAP. If you are not a client of ICA and have worked with another service provider we would advise the same. Or if you have applied on your own directly at the consulate then unfortunately, we wouldn’t be able to assist as we only provide legal services and we are not directly part of any Italian governmental branch. If however, you do believe that you might be eligible through the courts of course, we would be happy to take a look at your situation and see how it might be possible to assist you. Unfortunately, this ruling has come as a surprise to everyone and we are doing the best we can to facilitate the process for our clients.

[@lisapagliari9232]

How does this affect people who already have citizenship through these means

[@chrisclocker]

It would not affect any prior decisions

[@TimeSpace1]

@@chrisclockerI mean.. it could.

[@pumuckl0]

It will not affect people that have already been granted citizenship. However, if you have children or other family members that have not yet applied or have pending applications it could affect them.

[@Lady-BriChanel]

The Circolare specifically says that it will not affect previously approved citizenship with the minor issue.

[@Aurora_Tom_Renton]

This has nothing to do with citizenship thru my MOM, correct?

[@Bangle9]

It might

[@michaellowski7172]

I don’t understand if this affects me all my grandparents were born in Italy and came to Canada around the age 5-17. Can I still obtain citizenship?

[@Aurora_Tom_Renton]

is it geand fathers what about MOMS

[@maryviolasse4145]

Grazie.

[@Aurora_Tom_Renton]

im confused

[@antonio36996]

So discriminating the law is - all your relatives live in Italy - cousins and aunts in Italy (1st cousins and grandparents) but denied when someone of 3 generations away from Italy can become a citizen. 2nd, in Canada most people were forced to naturalize after immigrating. At that time most people that immigrated after 1965 were concerned of their status in the country. Canada did not give any options. I am just ranting ... frustrating ... prior to 1991 anyone was Italian regardless of this law and probably on a visit to Italy you will find out that the carabinieri stop you at the airport if you are 18 and above to you know that you were called up for service but did show. Next thing you know, you are sent to the barracks. - slap in the face this law. // Once the this new law is out you are only given a time limit to reestablish your citizenship collecting documents from 3-4 different communes (some people did move around a lot especially military families or who were part of the military) one of those places doesn't submit your documents in time, the consulate closes the door and refuses to make another appointment with - REFUSES - that is shady - we are talking about a person who is born and raised there, denied while the commune whom track your whereabouts doesn't get any info from the consulate and loses all trace. Sorry for my ranting, I have more to say - but i'll stop.

[@annony1annony191]

@antonio36996 In 1991, Italy was still in the phase of the First Republic. Fast forward to 1992: the First Italian Republic fell, giving way to the Second Italian Republic. This transition brought significant changes, including the eventual removal of the national identity and the national currency, the lira, which was replaced by the euro in the following years and allowed open borders with other european countries. Italy also eliminated the requirement for military service in the subsequent decade. Additionally, on August 15, 1992, it was announced that no one would lose their Italian citizenship if they naturalized in another country. This was a positive development for those who later naturalized elsewhere. Between 1992 and 1997, the Italian government declared that anyone who had lost their citizenship prior to 1992 due to naturalization had a five-year window to reclaim their Italian citizenship, provided they had the correct documents. They were also allowed to register their children in the process. Basically The Italy you knew in 1991 was completely changed and revolutionized with the the 2nd Republic of Italy in 1992. Some say that the Year 1992 was actually the Year 0 in Italy with this reset that was going on at the time. As for me my Father was never forced to naturalize in Canada after 1965, infact he never naturalized at all in Canada he stayed Italian forever while living and working in Canada, All those Italians from that era were given a permanent resident card or permanent resident status from the Canadian Government since they never naturalized as Canadians. I went through the JS process using my Italian born father without any hitches or hicups at the Italian Consulate and everything went smoothly with all the proper documents included.

[@1jymcook]

Rafael & Marco, are you seeing an increase in enforcement of the B1 language test or 1 year residency aspects of the new ruling? Or is it too soon to tell.

[@Patrizia-IT]

I received my citizenship 2 years ago. Can I still pass it on to my daughter and 2 grandchildren? We were all born and live in Canada where getting a consulate appointment is very difficult.

[@fourpoint64]

If I lose in Rome Federal court with 1948 and minor, can I reapply in a local court in Italy? (with no other ancestors available)

[@vivianacavazzini1237]

I had my Italian citzenship taken away when I married my husband in 1970 in England. in2001 I obtained my italian citzenship, my son would like to become italian but was told this was not possible he was born in 1976.

[@user-mooq]

You were not an Italian citizen at the time of your son’s birth, so you could not pass citizenship to him. 😢

[@lucianeedgington9421]

She is trying to control the refugees situation and the process will also affect children of legal immigrants. Very difficult situation.

[@harveypolanski755]

There are ways to do this that make more sense. Allow JS citizenship. But require applicants to have a certain net worth or income to apply. That way the Italy could ensure that the people applying are doing it for the love of the country/culture and not economic reasons.

[@TimeSpace1]

Wait.. can someone help me understand. My great grandpa was born in 1883, didn’t declare intention to become a USA citizen until 1925. He was 41 at the time. I think it took several more years before he was actually naturalized. My grandpa was born in 1919, and then my dad 1969. Is the minor issue with my Great Grandpa or his son who was born in 1919? Thanks! Was planning to retire there guess they don’t want my tax money…. Guess the lawyer on this channel won’t have to much work anymore 😅

[@jma.87]

The minor issue is with your 1919 Grandpa, depending on when your Great Grandpa actually naturalized (not the intention to, but the actual moment he became naturalized past 1925 -- if your Grandpa was under 21 at that specific moment, then it's a minor issue).

[@TimeSpace1]

@@jma.87yep my grandpa would have been 12. Appears my great grandpa got the citizenship in 1931. Wow.

[@TimeSpace1]

@@jma.87looks like my great grandma born in 1893 never filed to naturalize.. idk if that’s a possible line here under 1922/1948 case law..

[@AV-wx7sf]

@@jma.87nobody seems to actually say if it’s generational. It is last Italian born descendant, no? It your GGF Italian born did not naturalize when anyone was a minor, but GF UK born doesn’t, then F UK born naturalized US when son was a minor, it has no effect? It’s only the LIRA who immigrated from Italy.

[@norlandsq]

We should all write an email of protest to the Prime Minister of Italy Ms. Giorgia Meloni, who is strongly behind this new ruling.

[@TimeSpace1]

i always found her to be so beautiful and great... this changes my views on her a lot tbh.

[@josephcozza3117]

@@TimeSpace1 Doesn't surprise me at all.

[@reillykat]

Please don't. New or hopeful citizens telling the Italian government how to administer its own laws will not go over well. Cringe.

[@Behemoth66]

Oh yes because the Italian government always has the people at heart lol. The Italian government is broken in many ways let’s be honest. Bureaucracy and politics in Italy are terrible. With that said, this new rule ( not law) is being misinterpreted greatly by everyone. I’m a minor case and my attorney said this will not affect me since we will be going through the court. This only blocks an avenue for minor cases such as going through the consulate/municipality and this is only so that they can catch up on all the backlog they have. Since Covid, they received over 10,000 cases/applications which Italy was no prepared to handle and still isn’t. This rule will allow them to halt new cases/applications so they can catch up. I believe once they do catch up, this rule will be removed. If that makes sense.

[@nicolettastrada5976]

@@Behemoth66so why do you want to be citizen of such an awful country??????

[@moscowjoe6358]

So, this is good news for some of us? There should be a LOT of cancellations at the embassy very soon, right? The circolare doesn't affect me, so i should be able to get a consulate appointment much sooner? Anyone have an idea about this, or any experience at the consulate since October 3?

[@harveypolanski755]

That comment is in pretty poor taste my guy.

[@evansshadow9018]

Marco is being ethically questionable right now by releasing this. He should be making it well known that minor issue rejections have been popping up at multiple courts now like Rome, Messina, L’Aquila, Palermo, and Ancona. He should have shared the risk involved, otherwise it seems as he’s preying on people’s hopes here.

[@garyramey9221]

"Ethically questionable" is incorrect. He is outlining that they continue to win some cases. The premise of the episode is that there is an issue.

[@Bangle9]

How are you able to track what is happening in those Italian courts? I would love to know for my ancestral region-when we file a 1948 Case. Thanks

[@evansshadow9018]

@@garyramey9221 He is downplaying the trend that’s been rising in regional courts since before the circolare. He is not sharing the full story like he should be doing. Don’t trust this firm 100%, they have a personal and financial agenda in sharing this glossed over, overly optimistic information.

[@Behemoth66]

That is not true. You’re just regurgitating what you’ve heard ergo you don’t know if it’s true and to what degree so stop with your bs accusations 🙄. I just had 3 Italian friends from NY put in their cases this week in Palermo and they weren’t rejected even with the new ‘ruling’ or ‘ordinance’ which is not a law. So it really depends how the judge is feeling that day hahah I believe applicants with minor cases who have Italian surnames have a better chance of being approved tbh

[@evansshadow9018]

@@Behemoth66 It is a fact that rejections have been seen in 5 courts now, compared to only Roma and Messina in the past few years. Mr. Overpriced trustful over here says not to worry about the circolare or Supreme Court rulings because they’re not binding. The reality, like I said in a previous comment, is that it’s a mixed bag, completely dependent on the judge you get and if they choose to follow the new minor interpretation. The fact that Mr. Overpriced trustful over here left all this information out is suss, to say the least.

[@obfuscateidentity2329]

Doesn't affect me.

[@LeftToWrite006]

So, how does this affect 1948 cases?

[@pumuckl0]

It doesn't affect them yet. This does not apply to the courts and each judge can rule as they see fit. It's possible that in the future the courts could align more with this interpretation, but that's just speculation.

[@Lady-BriChanel]

At this time it's up to the judge to decide if they want to apply the ruling or not. If you have a 1948 case and the next in line was an adult, there is no issue. If the next in line was a minor, it's at the mercy of the court. There has been a mixed bag of acceptances and rejections since the first ruling in 2023.

[@Behemoth66]

If I was born in 1986 and my mother naturalized in 1987, does that mean I don’t qualify anymore? That is absurd since I never gave up my citizenship of Italy . If I had the option , I would renounce my US citizenship and accept my Italian one

[@Aurora_Tom_Renton]

you should be good

[@scottandrews947]

@@Aurora_Tom_Renton Wrong.

[@scottandrews947]

When did your father naturalize? If that occurred before your 18th birthday, you're out of luck.

[@pumuckl0]

You don't qualify anymore unless you have another family member that you can go through. Was your father also Italian? If so, when did he naturalize? If you live in one of the places in the US where it is impossible to get a consulate appointment, you might be able to use that reasoning to get a court case going, but you would need to consult a lawyer on that.

[@Behemoth66]

So far , the attorneys I have contacted en Sicily ( where my parents were from), stated that the judges are not following that ruling and that minor cases are still being approved. I’m still going to apply anyways. I’m sure that that ruling will not survive for long as it is absurd

[@salvatoreemma]

The new ‘Minor’ rule interpretation handed down is still confusing to me. Does it affect a 1948 case of the maternal line of a great grandmother automatically naturalized (before 1922) through marriage? This has me holding my breath…🫣

[@evansshadow9018]

@@salvatoreemma that’s involuntary naturalization/ no naturalization. Talk to a lawyer

[@salvatoreemma]

@@evansshadow9018 yes, of course. Thanks 👍 but I was thinking the channel’s attorney, Marco, might share a little more on the maternal line that never naturalized - does the new Minor rule affect that pathway (?). Maybe there’s a bunch of applicants like me and it’ warrants a little more clarification. Maybe Rafael can share his opinion too.

[@evansshadow9018]

@@salvatoreemma why would the minor rule affect you if she never naturalized? Minor issue is for ancestors who naturalized, not those who never naturalized

[@salvatoreemma]

@@evansshadow9018 omg I didn’t understand. Never naturalized means unhindered… I’m grinning ear to ear. Thanks for making my day.

[@evansshadow9018]

@@salvatoreemma talk to a lawyer just to confirm but that’s my understanding

[@MargarettCentrella]

Hi I’m confused- my grandparents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the US. My grandparents got the US citizenship or naturalization in the US when my mother was under 21 years of age. Does that mean that I cannot apply for dual citizenship if my mother was over 21 years of age, does that make a difference?

[@josephcozza3117]

If your mother was under the age of 21 when both of her parents officially naturalized then that line is cut as a result of this new circolare.