The Minor Issue Part 2: Italian Citizenship by Descent - Court Strategies & Consulate Limits

[@REASONFORTRUTH]

You guys are awesome. Marco is the very best attorney in his space. I highly recommend him!-Steven

[@donnalong7260]

Thank you Marco and Rafael for the update!

[@nancyharrington-q9p]

What if you booked your consulate appointments before this memo was issued? Could the consulate honor your application based on the rules at the time you applied and booked your appointments? Thank you

[@RachelDavis705]

Doesn't matter. We're screwed.

[@pumuckl0]

It's not about the appointment date. It applies to all applications that have not yet received a final decision. It's worth going to the appointment just in case they do something quirky, but it will most likely be rejected. If so, get the rejection in writing so that you can potentially appeal or launch a court case if possible.

[@RichardNP]

So is this a potential Catch-22? Applying through my grandfather creates a Minor issue. However, if I apply through the courts in Italy through my grandmother as a 1948 Case, could the judge deny the 1948 Case application because the judge would rule I should go through my grandfather’s line because the Minor rule does not apply in his court?

[@denasutera]

Recommendation “how to file with court in town of ancestors birth” ? Do we need an attorney Or can we self file ? I’m waiting now for my consultate to approve (already filed 2023)

[@Pokephira]

In your experience, how friendly are the courts in Palermo?

[@RachelleTuescher]

Great explanation, thank you!

[@luciagetz7632]

I am clear from the minor issue on my Paternal side since my grandfather became a US citizen after my father was an adult. However, my mother became a US citizen before my birth. Does this change with the new cicolare?

[@anna-ku3fq]

If my mother naturalized in 1980 and I was 18 and 6 months would I be exempt from the minor issue. According to your website it states that if it was before 1975 minor was considered under 21. Can you please clarify. I am struggle to figure out if I am effected by this new Minor rule. Thank you!

[@JerusnamWien85]

It sounds like you shouldn’t be affected, no? In 1980, you could have theoretically walked into an Italian consulate and registered as a citizen without your mother since the age of majority was 18 after 1975.

[@steveheck4348]

My grandparents never became USA citizens. In fact my grandfather had to register as an enemy alien during WWII.

[@SALFXEF]

Please do a video on the entire process and regulations or rules of 1983. I know you've done a video in the past about it. But talk about the process of applying at a consulate or in a community or do you need an attorney what if the parents are deceased and the child wants to get citizenship it's not it laid out clearly on the consulate site. Do you need to record the marriage through the consulate first and then apply do you do it all at once.

[@lyndalombardi6473]

This is all very confusing. My husband came to Canada as a small child in 1955, his parents naturalized and so he too was naturalized automatically(? we are assuming he was naturalized because his parents were). Can an argument be made through the consulate here that he really had no say as his parents made that decision for him and now as an adult he wants to regain his Italian citizenship. From what I have heard in your videos it seems he can not regain citizenship he would have to proceed and apply to become a new Italian citizen. Our children are wanting to gain citizenship by descent but it seems they too can not even if their father and grandparents were not an Italian citizens when they were born here in Canada. It doesn't seem right that even though he was born in Italy that he has not chance of regaining his Italian citizenship when naturalization was required to immigrate to Canada at that time.

[@dissidentart5603]

This situation shows the importance of really understanding the law and/or having legal counsel. Also, is there anything in the new ruling or any other interpretation that affects Italian citizenship if an ancestor had Italian biological parents but was later adopted?

[@iseolake]

I heard that if you live in Italy under a proper visa you could file the case based on where you live in Italy. Filing in the ancestor’s home region is necessary only if you live outside Italy. Is this correct?

[@kristinkucholtz3129]

How many of you are going to pivot to a court case? The fees are much higher and they cannot back the 100% guarantee. I am concerned. Have any of you backed out- and if so were you able to get any of your $ back?

[@RideshareRevealed]

From what I'm hearing, the Departmentsl of the Exterior is not yet engaging this new policy and that the Circolare is only a recommendation from the Departmentof the Interior. Are you 100% sure that this applies to the Department of the Exterior and the Consulate, AND that it is a MANDATE?

[@pumuckl0]

It's a mandate for the consulates and the comune offices. It is not a mandate for the courts.

[@jimthefeedguy1335]

The circular affects all administrative JS applications meaning any non courts applications

[@markmasi9024]

It’s not a mandate but recommendations from the Ministry of the Interior, however, it appears the consulates will allow implement it as will the majority of Italian municipalities . The Consulates are waiting for guidelines from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on how to implement it.

[@salvatoreemma]

Sounds like court petitions for maternal line ancestors who were naturalized automatically through marriage ( between 1912 - 1922 ), regardless of whether the next ancestor was yet born, makes a good 1948 case for citizenship by descent. Is this a correct path?

[@Daves85quattro]

My grandfather, (mothers father) was born in Vallelunga, in 1906. I have his birth certificate my mother's( USA 1943 ) and of course mine (USA 1968) does this help prove a claim?

[@onetry7406]

Please talk about female ancestors who married an Italian.

[@zeitgeist888]

If a person is ready to go to the consulate right now how long is it generally to get recognized if you contact ICA tomorrow?

[@pumuckl0]

This is difficult to answer. If you are ready to go to the consulate right now, then you likely don't need the help of a lawyer. Do you have all of your documents and application ready to file? If not, it could take a while just to get the needed documents. Once your application is filed the time can vary widely depending on the consulate. And then there is the challenge of actually getting an appointment. Some people have been trying for 1-2 years or more to get an appointment. It's really difficult to get any kind of timeframe without asking people that processed similar applications through the same consulate that you will be using.

[@chillywit]

What if the mother voluntarily naturalized (post 1922) when her child was a minor but her dual US-Italian citizen husband(born in the US to Italian parents) did not naturalize?

[@Behemoth66]

Im in the same situation and have cousins who were as well. I was told that if doing it at a court ( Rome or Palermo in my case) = it doesn’t negatively affect me. It just leaves me only one way to apply which is at a court in Palermo due to my parents came from Palermo. I was born in 1986 in the USA and my mother naturalized in 1987 and I’ve been told by 3 Italian immigration attorneys that I will be fine, just have to wait 10-18 months to receive my passport etc. 3 of my cousins were in the same situation and just got approved this week in Italy

[@SALFXEF]

Since the minor issue I believe that a lot of people are not aware that they might fall into the pre 83.

[@klasicpao]

I am still confused. If someone can tell me yes o no to the following: my husband's parents were naturalized Canadians by their parents when they were 9 and 12 yrs old. They got married in the 70's and had 2 children that were born Canadians. Later on my in laws got back their Italian Citizenship when my husband was 20. Can this give a chance to my husband to fight it in court? Thanks!

[@ASRomaCalcio15]

Was it before 1975 that they got their italian citizenship back? If it was, your husband could be eligible but dont take my word for it...but it sounds like they got their italian citizenships back between 1992-97 when they were offering it back to people for a while, which would mean your husband was already over age of 18 and thus, not eligible.

[@marxtr6]

So I understand where this is going but what if my grandfather was naturalized a year before my father was born (as a second child), the first being before he was naturalized. Does that exclude me from obtaining citizenship through decent or might the courts consider this?

[@nicoleparisi-mcknight9175]

No your father never had a path to citizenship. The minor ruling would however impact his sibling’s path to citizenship, since they were most likely a minor when their parent naturalized.

[@marxtr6]

@@nicoleparisi-mcknight9175 Not what I wanted to hear but thanks for your response.

[@nickwho1177]

I'm in Canada. My father became a Canadian Citizen when I was 10. It was $400 to apply through the Consulate. How much is it through the courts?

[@pumuckl0]

You likely will not be able to do this yourself. You would need to have a lawyer representing you, so the lawyer fees are the biggest expense. Lawyer fees can vary widely, but you should expect to pay between $5k-$10k for a case like this.

[@nickwho1177]

@@pumuckl0 and Marco is an Italian Citizenship attorney.

[@Behemoth66]

$4000-$6500 I’ve been quoted and I’m a ‘minor case’. I chose this route since it has to be through the court now and I can’t spend 3-6 months in Italy right now to do it myself. Was born in 1986 and mother naturalized in 1987. They said it’s fine it just has to be in the court of where my mother was from which was Palermo Sicily . Only down fall is it takes 10-18 months to receive the passport etc I was told

[@savvysavingstephanie]

Thank you!

[@danielahaleiwa]

Marco, can you make a video about children born out of wedlock?

[@PaulFromCHGO]

@ItalianCitizenshipAssistance I assume that I am safe but just to ask, for someone who recently obtained citizenship by descent via a consulate where an ancestor's child was a minor when the parent naturalized as a US citizen, can the Italian government change their mind and now take that citizenship away? Or once we have the citizenship, are we safe and they can't take it back? Using Austria as an example, an Austrian lawyer told me that they can change their mind within 3 years of granting Austrian citizenship in certain circumstances. So hopefully this is not the case for Italy.

[@pumuckl0]

It only affects applications that have not yet been approved. There is no mechanism to change the application decision or revoke citizenship at this point. I guess it's possible that a new law could be introduced in the future, but I think that is highly unlikely.

[@giiggii11]

I believe this whole citizenship business will be out of business soon!

[@pumuckl0]

As long as the US, Canada and UK continue their downward spirals there will always be a demand to leave those places.

[@Behemoth66]

That is very ignorant to say. If anything, it will only grow more

[@annony1annony191]

@@Behemoth66 It's not very ignorant it's geting more apparent as time goes by. pumuckl0 does have a point.

[@danielahaleiwa]

@@Behemoth66i think OP is right. There is a major anti immigrant vibe in the world right now. Italy elected a far right anti immigration government, so expect the policies to follow

[@SALFXEF]

What about pre 1983 marriage

[@markmasi9024]

Women who married an Italian citizen husband before April 1983 are eligible for derivative citizenship .

[@antonio36996]

My grandparents lived in Italy. What I find weird is that people who have a connection to the country with immediate family members have more difficulty to obtain citizenship where that someone of a grandparent tracing back decades can get their citizenship due to this odd law. Someone with ancestry who at the time prior to wars never had to naturalize get it easier. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Twisted rules about 1975 ...

[@drknopoff]

This is so unfair. People were born with a right to citizenship and then due to a reinterpretation of a law, this right is taken away from them. Children didn't know then they had to reapply for citizenship if their parents nationalized, because the law at the time was that if they were born before naturalization they were citizens. This new interpretation applies the law retroactively, taking away what people understood to be their birthright at the moment. People will sue.

[@linamonreale5129]

Ive seen a lot of rejected