Make Devils & Demons Formidable in Your D&D Campaign! | Grim Hollow | DnD 5e | Fiends | Horror

[@Darkness_9.9]

7:20 interestingly enough there IS actually more in the DnD lore about why devils collect souls, at least in the plane shift setting (the setting that added most of the lore about the outer realms). There the demons of the abyss (chaotic evil) just wanna to see the world burn. But to get to the rest of the outer planes they have to go through the first layer of the nine hells (the realm of devils). And so demons and devils have fought the so called blood wars since almost eternity. To try and win this war the devils desperately needed more man power so they started to corrupt mortals to gain their souls who then, once they arrive in the nine hells turn into the lowest of devils and get pressed into service to fight this eternal war. And honestly I love this lore. Gives them a good reason to collect souls and makes it part of a larger cosmic game that questions our morality.

[@dezopenguin9649]

I love the little campaign plotline with the noble who's being tempted. The players handle a series of missions of escalating difficulty and trust, only to find out that a target is not what it was represented as being (and perhaps the noble doesn't even know), which sets off a rebellion, which may in turn lead to escalating oppression, and a general spread of chaos and despair in the area. The fiends could be prompting various different people on multiple sides, while the players are left, perhaps, thinking at first of mundane political motives which they have to see past to find the true culprit(s)...

[@gasmonkey1000]

I can see a fiend hatching a plan as such: Lets call our fiend "Planter of Plagues." It *hates* the idea that mortals can banish it by believing and reading a book. So it decides to undermine the faith. It starts by posing as an old man. It saves a young man, and proceeds to have a conversation where it convinces the monk that the [insert name of pope equivalent] is higher than any king spiritually and as their spiritual father all kings owe their crowns to [great value pope title here]. And finally leaves in such a way to make the young monk think that he'd witnessed a miracle. The boy becomes a monk and the tale spreads. Time passes, this idea spreads to the [not pope], and the devil subtly boosts his ego, until he does something to piss off a king. The king takes the [not pope] makes him abdicate, and installs a puppet. All to lead up to a massive war where finally it will destroy all credibility of the church and the faith. A plot spanning centuries to undermine the greatest shield and sword the mortal world has against demon kind

[@lechevalier-ns2pt]

… except in this scenario the church’s rule is still strengthened. The outcome of that civil war will just decide if the king controls it or not. If the king does end up victorious he will still enforce the faith.

[@gasmonkey1000]

@@lechevalier-ns2pt It could. Or the war dragon for so long, and every other king and duke set up their own "not-pope" to the point that the position loses all credibility, so many massacres carried out in the name of "the church," and the war drags on so long that the title of priest loses all meaning. Or the church becomes like the church did in France before the revolution: a cushy job less about God and more about money

[@lechevalier-ns2pt]

@@gasmonkey1000 the church is/was like that everywhere not just in france. There was a long period in catholic history where three different popes were fighting for control and calling the others heretics. The HRE was in a constant power struggle between the emperors and the popes for its entire history (the HRE lasted almost a millennium btw) The church became fractured, yes, but the faith survived and thrived regardless

[@gasmonkey1000]

@@lechevalier-ns2pt I based the idea on that, but also the idea that eventually the church forgets it's purpose and becomes more interested in money and power. But perhaps more devastatingly the symbols just becoming decorations. The idea for the demon is the priest becomes more a political position than a position of faith. And so how can a priest or holy man exercise a demon if he didn't believe in the first place and was just put there as a political lacky?

[@lechevalier-ns2pt]

@@gasmonkey1000 in pre modern times politics was inseparable from religion. If you had religious power, you had political power. you were king/lord/duke because god blessed you and your rule. The whole reformation protestant movement was centered on the political power struggle between local churches and the wider church. If you claim the [not pope] is seduced by demons, even if you have irrefutable evidence, removing that figure is a political move and those that would be threatened by it (by accident or not) would most likely oppose you.

[@Cassapphic]

Inspired by ffxiv, using dnd lore for devils and demons I renamed demons to "voidsent" as my players kept calling devils demons, so to avoid confusion I gave demons a name that better ties on what distinguishes them from devils, they are abyssal, empty souls, either chained and controlled by hubristic powerful leaders, who may break free of command and turn on their chain masters if they consume enough souls. Whereas devils are either footsoldiers sent on behalf of grand contracts made with higher devils, a sign of what the players are messing with when trying to interfere in the completion of these infernal bargains.

[@HazzardousEco]

I think it would be best if the gathering of souls served some grander purpose; one of my favorite rpg's called Kingdoms of Amalur has a faction quest for the House of Sorrows that gathers the negative emotions of their people and stores them in an Ethereal Chamber. But when the Tuatha infiltrate the House, their plan is to detonate the chamber of negative emotions to stop the advance of your allies by inflicting them with thoughts of despair, hopelessness, and suicide. So why not have Fiends do something similar in that regard? The collecting of souls through contracts can be used to siphon out those negative thoughts via torture that can be to be used in some type of super weapon or spell for the fiends to wield against mortals or celestials This is only one example, but we really need to do something about the fiends collecting souls for more than just nourishment lol

[@phoenixwithsomeflair]

I believe in the lore it actually is noted that the devils torture souls in order to make them more compliant and stronger attuned to the nine hells. Mold them into devils essentially. What you are thinking sounds like a particularly amped up version of that idea and I love it lol Also Kingdoms of Amular is so based! A real hidden gem of rpgs and one of my favs too :]

[@torinmccabe]

Lower and mid-level wizards might not be directly challenging to a rakasha, but they can cast the second level spell magic weapon to buff their party members

[@GhostfireGaming]

And that's the sort of thinking that separates a common mercenary from a monster hunter! 😄

[@archersfriend5900]

Rakasha's are unaffected by lower level spells and there effects.

[@thezerowulf2046]

​@@archersfriend5900correct, that wouldn't work. Rakshasa can walk through a wall of stone like nothing even

[@rubyseverinwhitworth9066]

Runeterra's demons are so good and don't get enough respect imo. They are made of all emotions (plus some other things). For example there is addiction, pain, secrets, doubt. The scariest to me is Ashlesh who is the the Lord of Joy who is currently bound to one of the playable characters and an effect of this on then is that they can only express joy. Nilah can actively be dying surrounded by horrible monsters and feel stuff deep within herself but is unable to manifest them, stuck being happy about everything going on (I might not have explained that well but you get the idea)

[@metadoxy]

“There are two kinds of stories we tell our children. […] The other kind: Oliver Anthony Bird, if you get too close to that ocean you’ll be sucked into the sea and drowned! This kind of story teaches them Fear. And for the rest of their lives, these two stories compete: Empathy and Fear.” That what fiends are in my game. Incarnations of our Fear and what the Frightened are willing to do.

[@Titan360]

The idea of a fiend of wrath being a skinned corpse reminded me of some of the horrifying creatures from Fear and Hunger. Including a certain boss from that game known as "the Tormented". Actually, most of the gods and spirits from Fear and Hunger make spectacular fiends. They are not cartoonishly evil Helluva Boss characters, they are inhuman creatures with alien (but mostly anti-social) values in the physical likeness of horror movie monsters. ...Horror GAME monsters, because Fear and Hunger is partially a horror game.

[@odinulveson9101]

If theres ONE thing I love about DnD inventions is classifications.Evil incarnate = Fiends = chaotic destructive Demons, lawful scheming Devils. And the ones in between Daemons ( actually irl nature spirits ). I would call them Demils or Devons😆

[@Southpaw_Blue]

Absolutely love this series. Thanks for all your work making them!

[@stevewinkleburg5300]

You know, you could've read to learn about why devils need soul, but you know, just saying there is no reason is fine too

[@camdenthompson4307]

for me personally, I rarely run fiends (I usually run abberations instead, since they fit more with being BBEG's and less explicit with their appearance). however, in my games, I usually have fiends, especially those who are incredibly well known, prefer to "Speciallize" in a type of evil, and specifically seek out people who would actually be interested with what they have. an example being having Mammon seeking out criminals, or having Levistus focus on people who seek knowledge, and they use that to turn people towards evil.

[@corbinpines4735]

Perfect video for me been meaning to run a demon base campaign in Grim Hollow and now I have the knowledge to make a bigger challenge for the players

[@lightbearerslamp]

A great example of how a devil would act is the Benefactor from Angel Studio’s The Shift. One of the best representations of the enemy I have seen recently

[@projectfantasy1385]

Ah, the good old days, when you had to be a good aligned priest with a crossbow if you wished to harm a rakshasza 😅 Nowadays a simple magic weapon is enough - or Gale (ofc, that's the DM's character) 😊

[@thewelshdm]

This has me revisiting the lore in my world to further develop the nature of fiends. The first devils were fallen angels, but thinking about the collection of souls, how does that develop into the nature of the hells as it stands now is an interesting question to answer.

[@fenthras9463]

I basically use the "fallen angels" plotline for my devils. They seek to pervert the "oh so great" mortals, almost like a vengeful child striking at their parents by convincing their more loved siblings to do horrific things. Demons are literally sins given physical form, raw manifestations of power corrupted by the malevolent thoughts and acts of mortals.

[@DM-Timothy]

Enjoyed your video, thanks! I’ve always actually enjoyed the demon and devil lore of the FR, interesting to hear a different perspective. There’s always another opinion, I guess!

[@lechevalier-ns2pt]

7:10 clearly you haven’t heard of capitalism

[@extaslash7077]

I'm planning on having a devil as a recurring character in my upcoming campaign. They're going to be essentially a card swindler, their "gimmick" being that they hold the Deck of Many Things, and most of their contracts revolve around goading people to draw from his deck, and of a visual design somewhat similar to crime city nightmare Twisted Fate from league of legends. I'm just struggling to think of ways to compellingly integrate them over the games life cycle. Do you have any thoughts Ben, or any other intrepid commenter?

[@iskandarthegreat0487]

Im super stoked for this one!

[@unseencrowyomare4143]

Well... If modern players do not see an endless cycle of promotions so you can do more work to get more promotions and capitalism for the sake of profit as existential horror...😂😝 On more serious note, I agree. Devils should be about corruption.

[@danorris5235]

Well, no, that's not what modern players see and I'm certain that's not what original creators intended. Money in itself isn't evil. Lust and greed for money is. You've replaced the evil with the thing and called the thing evil. Inanimate things aren't evil, portions of us are. What "modern" players forget entirely (and apparently this creator) is that devils get their rocks off corrupting mortals, especially in manners where the mortal is invoking righteousness and morality while doing it. This goes back for literally thousands of years in reality and used to be correctly portrayed even in this game. It's about perverting everything involved in goodness and right. The whole, "I be buying souls for muh promotions," thing is just the current IP holders not having any idea what they're doing. The original concept? If the devils have your soul you no longer do and your divine owner doesn't either. They win. The real crime here is thinking about it in economic terms instead of the sickness it is: destroying something beautiful and pure in a twisted way out of malice and spite. If that's not scary for whatever reason I wonder what that person gets up to on weekends for fun. Cuz I betcha it's nothing innocent or harmless. People who haven't had to deal with true evils often don't recognize them.

[@josephpurdy8390]

Give them 1e AD&D psionic powers. The rules work in every edition, because the powers are not associated with a class. The attribute ranges are fairly consist, and scalable.

[@dorgodorato]

The "Gods" of Bungie's Myth 1 and 2 were fantastic.

[@christopherbronson3275]

My Fiends? They just wanted to enjoy Taco Tuesday. Sadly though, they slept through it.

[@thomaspedersen6661]

warp damons!

[@jamescollins2068]

You should look up Demon: the Fallen/ Forsaken.

[@lordfenrir1394]

First? First! lol