Making a Sodium Chlorate Cell

[@Futt.Buckerson]

Gotta love the online Chem geniuses. They're a great resource for us rubes.

[@TeslaFactory]

Kiwi electrochemist here; hit me up if you ever want a second pair of eyes to go over things xD Love your work, mate!

[@spudd86]

If you ever need pure salt again you should probably go for pickling salt, it's non-iodized and doesn't contain anti-caking agents and should be very pure sodium chloride.

[@wat8437]

Pickling salt is a very american thing, so it might not be available over the water

[@blackirish781]

Kosher salt is pure NaCl and available everywhere.

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

Kosher salt is pure NaCl

[@MrBradshawbenjamin]

@@wat8437 really? why?

[@WizardNumberNext]

@@chemistryofquestionablequa6252 wrong kosher salt can be anything, as long it would have big flaky crystals kosher salt doesn't even have to contain any sodium

[@AllChemystery]

Nice electrodes! the best thing about these cells is the simplicity. even the simplest setups will produce chlorates if made well. plus they can just run unattended. i'm sure woeleon will appreciate the shoutout. have just last week finished a rather large run of my newly made 1.9l cell. i used the electrodes i built for my video on my cell but put them in a nice large reject shop bought barrel. two rubber grommets kept the whole thing nicely contained with no crust creep to be seen and safe enough to run inside. it was running at 5v 18A and i run about 900g NaCl. The problem is now dichromate leftover in solution and it has made the NaClO3 yellow with it's inclusion. not really sure if a re crystallization will remove it totally. but i have not tried yet. a tip to help the electrolysis go smoother would be to put it on your stir plate and spin away for a few hours at a time. i had mine running on off most of the way through on a timer for 15mins per hour.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Yeah I could chuck in on the hotplate, just to keep it at a good running temperature as it gets cold afternight, good thought. 1.9L cell, niceee. Hopefully the recryst does clear it up, working on that scale is hard, but don't see why the recryst of the material wont fix that issue.

[@AllChemystery]

NerdShedLabs TM GeekSufniLab once you work out the cell parameters eg: volume, Amps, anode surface area, the amount of salt in the cell, you can use some fairly simple calculations to get a good idea on how many amp hours are needed to convert the salt into chlorate. The main problem is calculated efficiency. Finally you can take advantage of the higher solubility of NaClO3 vs NaCl and recrystallise it. Also separate using acetone may be possible as NaCl is practically insoluble in acetone and NaClO3 is.

[@yermom1896]

AllChemystery

[@tomasbrod1533]

Nope. Mine passivated after 6 hours. It is probably because I did something wrong two times in a row. Anyway I got more and I am going to try again.

[@VerbenaIDK]

other cool thing about these cells is that you can even make perchlorate if you are determinated enough tho idk if i will even be able to make chlorate with the stuff i have, no heating, just water, table salt and graphite electrodes, been running it for pobably 2 hours rn from a old ass phone charger and all i got is a weird green stuff floating on the surface, definitively not sodium chlorate

[@willyou2199]

1 mole of electrons is 96458 coulombs of electrons. Or in other words, at 6 amps, you'd be producing 62 micromoles of electrons per second. 2 electrons are required to liberate a chlorine molecule, so 6A would be giving off 1.5mls of chlorine a second. 1.5ml/s is alot, in 24hours you'd fill 129 1L bottles. 6-7A is also crazy high current for a small setup like yours. Energy losses through wires are proportional to current squared. Just 1 ohms on your crocodile clips and you'd be producing 30-50 watts of wasted heat

[@VerbenaIDK]

well that's fine, if it keeps the cell at 80 c, for maximum efficiency, less work to do :p

[@NicholasA231]

15:43 - I can tell something funny is about to be revealed, but I didn't know I'd shortly be laughing myself to tears and giving myself goddamn hiccups for 20 minutes. Man, never stop being you. All of the careful working out, attention to detail, etc, and then... yeah. That shit never fails for me either.

[@AnthonyHandcock]

80% x 80% = Reasonable. Can't argue with the maths :-D

[@2mc29]

Hey mate 😊 Just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos. you're absolutely awesome! Please keep them going!

[@tomasbrod1533]

Thank you for working on this and making a video. I had made chlorate a few times now, first with carbon, then with MMO. Also I like your way of talking and speech. I wouldn't worry about pH controll unless you can drip-feed your acid in. you can read on APC that just splashing acid every two days won't improve the efficiency. Your constant current supply is more suited to chlorate than my constant voltage one, but is not very strong. Unfortunatelly it is way harder to modify (the free!) computer PSUs into constant current mode than to voltage mode.

[@OrbitalSaucer]

voltage is the parameter which dictates the specific chemistry occurring in the cell, and so I would choose this to be the parameter kept constant. Amperage is the number of moles per unit time produced and should be simply maximized without the electrolyte getting too hot.

[@canaan5337]

Crocodile clips is that an Australian thing? in America we call them alligator clips.

[@transkryption]

Different snout and don't eat children in Disney World

[@bearcatben4762]

@@transkryption also crocodiles can live well on land but alligators need water periodically

[@kirkc9643]

@@transkryption bahahaha crocodiles aren't fussy...they'll eat adults or children

[@chrismandros3087]

“The cats not allowed in the lab… Obviously”

[@tinobassi59]

Damn decimal points.

[@barriehemming1189]

Electrolytic cells are awesome!!!!

[@bromisovalum8417]

Yep they are! Organic electrochemistry is cool too, but ther's the eternal diaphragm issues, and you'd be best to invest in a calomel or silver/silver chloride reference electrode so you can fien tune the voltage needed for your cell conditions to maximize the wanted reaction and minimize the competing gas evolution reaction. A Kolbe reaction is a nice one to test the waters, or a simple (high overvoltage) electroreduction.

[@WizardNumberNext]

that is surprising sodium chloride dissolves 30g in 100ml water of any liquid temperature, so it may be close to freezing or close to boiling and it still be 30g/100ml

[@stephenwood4053]

Try 5 volts 1 amp and tig rods. and time 6.7 ph 70c and don't pour salt in the mix it will cause a direct short

[@stamasd8500]

You do not need to add dichromate when you use MMO anode and titanium cathode. Actually if you do use it it will shorten the life of your MMO anode. Dichromate is only needed when using a steel cathode to limit parasitic reactions, but those are very minimal when using titanium. I run a cell similar to yours without dichromate and it works very well.

[@DrakkarCalethiel]

stamasd Thanks for the information! Since dichromates are only commercially​ available I'll just need to get a titanium and a MMO electrode.

[@TheFireGoose]

Do graphite electrodes benefit from dichromates?

[@Burak_7333]

Did you place the hose so that the jar touches the water?.please i am waiting for reply

[@graemewight2975]

In evaporation pan salt making theyve got it sussed out, they know what pops out sol ( ution ) 1st and so on down to the last faction. So yeah.

[@guythat779]

Yellow chem!

[@georgeh5075]

Doing electrochem atm in uni and it's "voodoo horseshit"

[@simon.scurtu]

Is the sodium dichromate mandatory? why add sodium dichromate?

[@elephystry]

Does aqueous sodium chlorate have better or worse electrolytic properties than aqueous sodium chloride?

[@zubmit700]

Can't wait for the update. Love your videos!

[@87bwadman]

Iodine is added to salt because during the cold War, nutritional scientists found our modern diet lacked iodine, we were deficient. This is a problem because iodine helps with the effects of radiation exposure. Iodine is added salt because of paranoia.

[@Jimmy_CV]

Ah the 60's good times

[@omsingharjit]

12:30 but wikki says you have to heat nacl aqs in order to make naclo2 in this way ??

[@jonadams8841]

9:48 it’s good you’re 80% positive the electrode isn’t negative

[@accipiternisus649]

Keep it btw 40-50 celsius and it should run fine

[@Frostlander]

What is cold for you? 5C?

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

sometimes it reaches zero ok i'm soft alright

[@Frostlander]

Not tossing flak, just wanted a good idea of what the temp was in the vid. I appreciate the speedy reply.

[@Jkauppa]

its gonna boom

[@jl8n29]

Hey mate how do you measure the pH without bleaching your strips? I'm pretty sure I added waaay too much HCl as well due to difficulty reading bleached strips, and I've got two different kinds.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Usually the colour comes up first before the bleaching or your let the drop soak in enough that the edges give a good enough reading. That probably makes no sense, but it works with the strips I use. I've never liked the standard 4 panel dip pH strip ones for this reason,

[@nbrpwng]

Is it relatively easier and/or less electrical current-intensive to just make a solution of sodium hypochlorite, then use heating to disproportionate that into chloride and chlorate? I ask because maybe that could be a quicker or more viable option for people without higher-current electrical power supplies for the electrolysis.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Good question. Yes it is less current intensive, but it doesn't produce good quality Na chlorate. If it id, I could boil down the 10L of 10% hypochlorite I have lying around. Ok so think about it like this: boiling hypochlorite makes chloride and chlorate. So for every molecule of chlorate, there's roughly one molecule of chloride. The chloride is less soluble, so it will be difficult to purify a 50/50 mix of Na Chloride/chlorate. In a chloride cell, you're turning chloride into chlorate, so while you're increasing chlorate molecules you're also decreasing chloride molecules, so after some time its easy to purify out chlorate because it's in vast excess.

[@Minecraftmigapiku]

How about mixed method. Heat up to get 50/50 mix and them electrolysis?

[@arachnidadocumentary6159]

is titanium required?

[@guythat779]

Electro chemistry is interesting but not exciting not much happens and it's hard to do in casual/ghetto settings so I don't really delve in it But lovely video man

[@cleoking6312]

5 bucks that he typed in "food additive *blah blah blah*" saw conspiracy theories and them went back to search and typed "food additive *blah blah blah* identity"

[@n0username0n]

PANIC!!! Positive anode, negative is cathode Always helps me ahah

[@Timothy656]

When you talk about periodically adjusting the pH of the solution manually - that must be a hassle. Why dont you setup a simple pH Arduino controller unit with an automatic injector valve connected to a small bottle of HCl. This seems like the perfect example where it would be highly effective at and it wouldn't be to difficult to setup either considering all the parts are available online. That means you would have a fully autonomous process and you can just check on it from time to time :)

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Hey i've been thinking about this for a while so here is the reply: I mean first up is the cost and effort of such a system to fix what is a relatively minor problem for the cell. I have no idea how to code at all so there's that. pH meters, at least good ones, at quite pricey. But anyway, the major issue I feel is an issue with pH meters themselves. pH meters aren't designed to stay for long periods in solutions (other than the buffer they come with). They work but continually comparing an internal reference solution to the outside world. If the meter stays in the basic chlorate cell, it would quick begin to drift and before long it would likely be all over the shop with its values. So it needs to not soak in the solution and also continually get calibrated. I do like the idea of it being autonomous though. If the cells holds at ~50C then the evaporation rate is reasonable, so a very slow drip of a very weak acid + some NaCl would replace the water and keep the pH more reasonable, something like that wouldn't be that hard to rig up. Would also stop the chloride level falling so fast, but still lets the chlorate crystalise out when it reaches that point, as you're adding a solution of the NaCl.

[@Timothy656]

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Digital-pH-Controller-Meter-Tester-Replaceable-BNC-Electrode-220V-or-110V/201748400270?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908131621%26meid%3D52065665bfad488aaf99a74d17900d56%26pid%3D100678%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D13%26sd%3D201748400270&_trksid=p2481888.c100678.m3607&_trkparms=pageci%253Aab1e24d1-86c8-11e7-986f-74dbd180f925%257Cparentrq%253A0721c80915e0abc642f9720ffffdf68b%257Ciid%253A1

[@tomasbrod1533]

For more info see: www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/7502-ph-control-for-chlorate-cells/

[@firstmkb]

Extractions&Ire I doubt a DIY pH monitor would be worth the trouble, but you could mount the probe on a servo and have the Arduino dip it in the solution periodically. Relying on new code to release HCl would make me a bit nervous - nothing for someone that makes the products you do though!

[@RussellTeapot]

What are the best chemist compounds? Bromate ones. Because they are Bro, Mates! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAHAHHA AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA *LMAO*

[@omsingharjit]

What use of dichromate ?

[@jeroengrimmelikhuijzen6819]

Where did you find those TACC and TACN papers? I've been trying too look everywhere but i can't seem to find a good source

[@bromisovalum8417]

sciencemadness?

[@FakultasIslam]

Can i using another catode without titanium? Pls reply

[@squigglesmcjr199]

No, has to be titanium

[@omsingharjit]

Is it possible to make NaClO2 from NaCl using similar method ??

[@squigglesmcjr199]

Bleach??

[@TomsLab]

Lol that conspiracy site you linked says "No company in Australia, USA, or other developed countries is allowed legally to use the word "natural" on it's packaging, if the product contains any tape of preservatives or chemicals." I can't think of one food that doesn't contain chemicals.

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

you lose a lot of weight on a chemical free diet

[@OrbitalSaucer]

@@ExtractionsAndIre pure iron filings should be edible and an element rather than a chemical

[@DMTW]

Are you in Australia?

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

yep!

[@ethelana9627]

lmao if i can eat clay I can eat 554

[@WizardNumberNext]

yes, you can eat clay clay is aluminium oxide, same as sapphire Good look dissolving or reacting sapphire in hydrochloric acid even including all enzymes human body is using to digest food it is different with artificial additive just be safe and don't compare completely different chemicals like both are apples one maybe be Apple, but other is very much goat

[@Damon2920]

@@WizardNumberNext clay is alumino silicates not aluminium oxide. Kaolinite for example is a 1:1 clay or montmorillonite is a 2:1 clay

[@WizardNumberNext]

@@Damon2920 thank you for correction. I appreciate information. I had idea, bad half of my idea was wrong. Thanks

[@alans7358]

Lmao so true about the organic blogs and conspiracy shit online. Chemicals = hazards, didn't you know that ;D

[@MrBradshawbenjamin]

I mean they are aluminum rocks, is it water soluble? After getting to the anti-caking agent part I checked the salt in the house and it just had calcium silicate, dextrose, and KI, which did relieve me lol. I mean I'm sure the sodium aluminosilicate is in real small amounts, but it still kinda freaked me out a little

[@Haydy5040]

glassy carbon seems to work fine

[@davemwangi05]

what the hell is glassy carbon?

[@CatboyChemicalSociety]

@@davemwangi05 something not worth your time honestly. MMO is cheaper and better and with pH control your cell will run better.

[@CatboyChemicalSociety]

I actually want to get glassy carbon to dope it with boron so it can make NaClO4!!

[@nicktohzyu]

why are you avoiding potassium?

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

nickt potassium chlorate is much less soluble than sodium chlorate, so will come out as an impurity in the crop of crystals we get. Not an issue for most applications, but it's annoying for some, and so if we're going to the effort of making Na chlorate, we might as well make it as good as can be, ya feel

[@nicktohzyu]

what are applications where you want to avoid potassium? thanks for replying

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

nickt thanks for commenting! Well I was making this sodium chlorate because I wanted to make ammonium chlorate (see my other channel called Explosions&Fire2), which needs to crystallise out from solution. Any potassium in the chlorate would contaminate it, and the energetic properties of the ammonium chlorate rely on the fact that there's just ammonium and chlorate, so potassium would lead to an inferior product. Sure, it would be minor, but it is nice being sure of purity

[@bearcatben4762]

@@ExtractionsAndIre Why would your rain water have potassium in it? do you live inside of a coal plant

[@TrapperAaron]

Jesus when u said u were putting 7 amps through there I was wondering where all the heat was. God damn decimal points

[@Romuls753]

MMO?

[@OrbitalSaucer]

multiple metal oxide, a special coating to resist anodic breakdown since almost all metals get destroyed under these conditions. Lead dioxide elctrodes from batteries can do in a pinch

[@Romuls753]

@@OrbitalSaucer ah, okay. Good to know

[@OrbitalSaucer]

oh your're some nazi degenerate great

[@somniato7759]

@@OrbitalSaucer what?

[@BackYardScience2000]

@@somniato7759 , check out bruni's profile picture.

[@the_cat_prinse3506]

Was about to say 'is this really a Explosions&Fire video if it doesn't have everybody's favourite Explosions&Fire opening music?' but then I realised it's your other channel. You need theme music, my bro-mate ;)

[@the_cat_prinse3506]

Also. MORE CAT.

[@accipiternisus649]

Fck music we need facts

[@barretprivateer8768]

Hah you call alligator clips crocodile clips

[@science_and_anonymous]

it's cold in Australia mate? though most of that was a dessert hahahah

[@theterribleanimator1793]

"Cold" as in searing, not burning.

[@Pablo668]

Did you just assume that cells gender? You monster!!

[@nathanpimental4409]

"...the pHaych"

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

yo but how do you say it then?

[@nathanpimental4409]

"peey-Aych" - No hard-breath vowel...

[@the_cat_prinse3506]

That's fairly common pronunciation in Australia. Our articulation of alphabet letters are taught "ee, eff, gee, haych, eye, jay..."

[@jangisgand6140]

Why sodium chlorate but not potassium chlorate?

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Think i'll need the more soluble salt for an upcoming project or two. Also just to be a little difference, less videos on a sodium chlorate cell than potassium (not that there's much difference)

[@accipiternisus649]

It give great yellow color.And kclo3 gives more red

[@accipiternisus649]

Wei Zhao make sodium perchlorate solution then just add ammonium chloride and you have ammonium perchlorate percipate at bottom

[@crystalsheep1434]

Hmmm

[@zachreyhelmberger894]

You are making me dizzy! Can you use a tripod for your camera?

[@RR2BOX46]

pee-heyache

[@milyan360]

"80% positive" ha..ha

[@thecrudelab3204]

i thought u use bleach....

[@OrbitalSaucer]

hypochlorite (bleach) is an intermediate of the process of going from chlorides to chlorates via electrolysis, so you could use bleach if it was concentrated enough

[@guythat779]

..... 7 amps bruh

[@WizardNumberNext]

well fine this salt additive maybe be rock, but you forgotten your stomach is not full of water but hydrochloric acid, so you should first check how it reacts there with additions of other acids and enzymes, then you have duodenum, which adds other enzymes suddenly you shouldn't be that relaxed about anything containing aluminium on the other side tea contains some aluminium too I honestly don't know effects of this additive, but I wouldn't be that quick to judge either way just stay at safe side and avoid such salt, as it may end up poisonous anyway

[@wat8437]

While you're on the subject of electrochemistry . You could give methamphetamine by electrolysis a a try.