Making a violin - step 17 - tuning the plates

[@LuigiRosa]

This "scientific" part of the violin build is a real pearl. Thank you Maestro!

[@maestrokimon]

Good to hear that you like it!

[@iokarii]

I agree, your videos, it's completeness and care is outstanding! ❤ Just this part stay for me a magic.. And I do not know how to approach.. Even I do not know what to looking for.. I tried like "violin resonance desks inspection", etc.. But found not relevant links. Can you please mention at least one relevant link, book, etc..? I have bought violin kit, and would like to inspect desks, whether I can somehow improve sound before competition.. I saw somewhere, that desk was put on box with whole, where was repro, and sound generator, and put some sand on desk, and checked created patterns formed from sand.. But how, what to expect, I do not know.. 😮 Many thanks.

[@NMranchhand]

What a fascinating topic. Well covered as an introduction. I enjoyed it.

[@Jeff034]

brilliant! Built about 20 acoustic guitars - many skills transferable but this is gold. tks.

[@romanchomenko2912]

Also is important is density to age of the woods used in violin making for example a 100 year old tree will sound different to a 200 year old tree . The trees that have been damaged by lightning also gives a different tone as the resin in the wood evaporates due to heat and foresters tend to fell damaged mature trees because of damage to the bark .

[@violinpairsendejas]

I like your videos thanks for sharing your technique I am the 3rd jeneration of my family violin maker and I use my grandfather's technique that he used in 1895 I will use some of his sound technique in the 2 parts of the violin.thanks maestro kimon

[@maestrokimon]

Thank you for your kind words!

[@SamirAzarLuthier]

Thank you Kimon. I focus also on M5, and the weight of the plate.

[@carywatmore]

Happy Christmas and thank you for your videos.

[@carywatmore]

This is another excellent video for understanding the amount of work goes into making a fine string instrument.

[@MladenSpasinoviciMusicLibrary]

Maestro Kimon I find your videos extremely useful! I watched all the series of videos and little by little I am beginning to understand a lot of things about the art of lutherie. I am trying to learn step by step the basics of the bridge making on the cello as I am a cellist myself. I tried fitting some bridges on several cellos including one on an electric cello (the front was flat so it wasn’t too hard regarding the “curvature” of the belly). I would be very happy if you could make a video about the cello bridge fitting and the tools that you use in the process. It is still hard for me to find the right tools for this as on the specialised sites it is not specified which plane, saw, chisel, etc. are suitable for the cello bridge making. I know that this is hilarious but I feel like a child in the second grade regarding the lutherie. So thank you for your useful videos! In the near future I will send you some audio with me for your use on your channel as background music. You can listen some of the pieces on my Duo Cell’Arpa KZbin channel where I play together with my friend Roxana. All the best to you and to your happy instruments!

[@maestrokimon]

Thank you for your kind words, supporting my channel on Patreon and the music you sent me!

[@hugopine7169]

Sacconi found that all of the backs of Stradivarius violins he took apart produced F# and the top plate produced a D#. In baroque tuning that’s G and E - corresponding to the pitch of the two outer strings.

[@bluehoo0]

Thank you I found this very informative.

[@maestrokimon]

You are welcome!

[@moonshade0227]

Thanks for the video. I would like to hear your view on how to tune modes. My opinion is bass bar changes mode 5 the most. Also the mass is important(For g string volume). The lighter the better. I think there's also a problem converting the open mode to closed mode (with edges glued to the ribs). I think the conversion is an empirical model. Sometimes it doesn't work.

[@vroomvreew]

Is there a need to adjust for the microphone frequency reproduction?

[@coltwarren]

Very interesting video Kimon. Thank you /Christer

[@maestrokimon]

Thank you Christer!

[@Swamp_Donkey_]

if holding an object at a point other than the node stops it from making that noise then would the ribs being glued along the perimeter stop the plates from making those noises?

[@grandpasmountain]

I am not sure why your are trying tune Mode 1. All the research points to fixing the relationship of the two plates using Mode 5 and Mode 2 . Mode 1 will always be 90hz when these first two are correct. I would point out the research of Carleen Hutchins and Al Caruth (who I know personally)-- both are internationally published and are two of the greatest researchers on the acoustics of the violin. You cannot use the bass bar to tune the plate. Tune before the f holes are cut. Then carve the bass bar to achieve the original tune. There is much I could say....maybe check out my violin tuning video on my channel and write me back!

[@maestrokimon]

Hi Jon. I did it like this because I wanted to keep everything as simple as possible and use as les equipment as possible so it is easy for everyone. In this case it's hard to hear mode 5, that's why I concentrated to 1 and 2. I had a look to your video. Very wel explained!!!

[@grandpasmountain]

Thanks! Mode 5 is the easiest tone to hear, and you can use either a guitar tuner or even an ordinary piano to find the pitch.

[@Jehag2]

I never understood this, for the blades are vibrating very differently when glued on the sides. It is like a tuned violin versus playing in tune. My stings can be perfectly in tune with each other, but when I stop a string with my finger, it might (!) be not so precise any more. Same thing if you "stop" the blade by glueing it on the side.

[@maestrokimon]

I understand your way of thinking and there is some kind of sense in what you say. Point is that we tune the blades and then fix them en exactly that same way: on the edge on the ribs. You have te see it a bit more like when you correctly tune i.e. the A and D string and the put your finger on both strings at once and play that double note. That note might not be correct, (let's say a D-G, using the third finger but a bit too high towards D#-G#) but the relation between the two notes (D&G) will be a correct 5th as it was for the free A and D string.

[@Jehag2]

@@maestrokimon Aha. thank you :)

[@janescott782]

Kimon! How great to see you!! It's me, Jane, your English friend from Cremona. How are you?

[@maestrokimon]

Hey Jane! So great to hear from you! I'm fine and what about you? Send me an e-mail if you want! [e-mail]

[@moneypenny174]

Thank you for your videos. Please tell me what the name of the app is that you use for the modes. Also can you please tell me the make and model number of the belt sander that you use for thicknessing the ribs. I saw it in the background of this video. Thanks

[@maestrokimon]

The app is just a tuner app. Any Chromatic tuner app will do the job. The belt sander comes from HBM-Machines and is the HBM 150

[@moneypenny174]

maestro-Kimon thank you!👍🏽

[@moonshade0227]

I like to use frequency analyzer. That way I can see other modes in one tap.

[@axlcrush]

Hi, I am very curious to know how much of this tuning is done for the various price range of violins. For example do they only do this in the expensive Italian made violins in the $20k range and above or do they do this also for say a $3000 German violin or $2000 Chinese violin copy of a Guarneri ? Or do these lower end violins just graduate the thicknesses to reach prescribed thicknesses by measuring with callipers with no tuning done?

[@tarcisiopereira9713]

Thank you! It was very good to me.

[@maestrokimon]

Thank you for watching!

[@woodssssss]

What app are you using on your phone?

[@shanebuyck4861]

Did you bring the thickness of the top down to 3.5 mm before you put the base bar on and started tuning the plates? And how thick is the base bar supposed to be when you glue it on the top?

[@moonshade0227]

You need to first tune thickness without bassbar then tune the bassbar. Everyone does it differently. Bassbar raise the frequency in general.

[@jens-erikagerbo9370]

where can I find basic measurements on violins

[@annemaija]

What are the knocking spots for Mode 1 and 2 ? I did not see them clearly from that video.

[@maestrokimon]

It's easier to google "vibration modes violin", you will find pictures.

[@kathyparker7140]

What hind of tuner do you used Trying to learn how to tune plates. Thanks

[@maestrokimon]

Any chromatic tuner that indicates the frequency will do the job.

[@mccypr]

Checkout Jon Mangum’s channel. He’s an amateur violin maker who uses the tuning method you’re explaining here. He also vibrates the plate(s) on using a speaker and tone generator. Thanks!

[@maestrokimon]

Thank you for the tip Prince! I know his channel and I wil try his methode on the next instrument.

[@arashamed]

hi Maestro...which app you use för measure the frequnecy? thanks

[@maestrokimon]

I used an android app called gString

[@johnalexander301]

Great videos. I’ve enjoyed following. I’m curious how many hours does it take for you to make a violin and how much do you sell them for? Thank you for sharing!

[@lamplighter9725]

Will the varnish change the tone too? I wonder if there is more plate tuning happening on the inside once the varnish is applied? Thanks for the journey!

[@maestrokimon]

The varnish will change the tone a bit, but equally on both top and back. According to some, you could apply the primer, ground and couple of first layers before tunning.

[@tamermankrious6125]

When you will finish with this, it has taken more than a year i think?

[@maestrokimon]

More than two!!! But good things take time like red wine!!!

[@tamermankrious6125]

@@maestrokimon You are right !!!

[@taldeus4008]

I might have missed it. How do you know what freq to tune them to?

[@maestrokimon]

I read it in a paper. These seem to be the ideal frequencies, and are an average of the frequencies measured of "good sounding instruments".

[@tomallen6117]

Is there a step 18 video?

[@maestrokimon]

No not yet. It will be online in October. Don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss it!

[@bethesdawoodworks2314]

What is the name of the app you’re using for the tuning? Great series!!!

[@maestrokimon]

It's called gStrings (android) but any app will do the job as long as it gives the Hz frequency. Thank you!

[@aleksinuutila2315]

Spectroid on android gives you audio spectrum which enables you to see more than one vibration spike at the same time.

[@bethesdawoodworks2314]

I have an iPhone.....what would you or anyone else that see this recommend.

[@aleksinuutila2315]

@@bethesdawoodworks2314 Anything that measures Hz should be fine. But I think that if it just shows the Hz, and not the intensity, it might be hard to know if the mic picks up the sound that you want. Also you could use some frequency generator apps, and change the sound frequency until it matches the sound you get while tapping the top or bottom, then you might have more control, after all your ear is a good instrument. Spectral analyzer or spectrogram apps work the best imo.

[@Tostra1997]

@@bethesdawoodworks2314 n-Track Tuner is probably good for this. I plan on using one of my recording microphones and audacity or Studio One when I get to this point on my own build. I don't think the added sound quality will matter, as I'm only looking for the pitch of that particular mode, so your phone and a tuner will probably be great for a simpler setup than what I'm planning :-)

[@markuswx1322]

In addition to tap tones, old makers would bend and flex the plates, roughly estimating the elasticity and sound velocity of the wood. The information gained by these techniques was particular to the maker and formed part of the art rather than the science of violin making. As you note in this video, you must experiment to find what works for you. It will be a sad day when everything is reduced to a standard set of measurements.

[@maestrokimon]

I know but the methode you describe need experience and is non transferable! That sad day will never come, trust me!

[@moonshade0227]

That's called stiffness. It can be derived by measurements these days. We don't need to bend or twist anymore. Science give us a standard and consistency. If you see enough old violins, you will agree that modern violins are more consistent. It is either consistently bad or good. Old luthiers even the famous ones made mediocre violins. Good modern luthiers can tune the violin based on customer's preference. That's the power of science.

[@markuswx1322]

@@moonshade0227 I don't necessarily disagree. Makers like Alf and Zigmuntowicz have shown that aural copies of great older violins can be made, at least to some extent, and the making of poor violins can be avoided. I wouldn't take it much further than that. Every violin has points of satisfaction and dissatisfaction to the player, and I don't think that will change as long as humans are human.

[@fiddlix]

Never been a fan of plate tuning. Still if you get better results by including it in your build then by all means use it.

[@maestrokimon]

Not everyone is keen on the approach. But everyone can do what helps him to achieve the desired result. For me it was the first time experimenting with this methode and I think that I will try it again.

[@Kelvin-ed6ce]

@@maestrokimon how did you achieve optimum results before you tried this method of plate tuning?

[@jonviol]

You should not be chasing frequencies by random planing but listening to the taptones. Your method is flawed as obtaining a natural even overall tap sound is more important than fiddling about with these pitch variants. Just get an even sound and the thickness will follow naturally , not the other way around .

[@bennyblanko3]

You should make a video showing this. I agree with you. A good clear natural even tap tone (like he had to start) might have been better. His top and back may be a little louder now when finished, but not sound quite as warm and nice, as might be a little thin - that is what I was hearing when he adjusted the bass bar thickness and width. But, I'm sure both you and Maestro know a heck of a lot more than me on building fiddles!