Making Trains Part 1: Understanding Coaches

[@michaelgrey7854]

True model railway enthusiasts would gawke at my layout as I just run whatever train takes my fancy. Could be an express from the 1960's or a modern DMU. I never really considered the proper way to form a train before.

[@martinbateman2467]

Rule 1 applies

[@little_britain]

Fantastic. You managed to summarize almost everything I know about coaching formations in a single easy to understand video, and added a couple of hints I didn't. I look forward to the next episode in the series.

[@countottovanshanoo822]

Day 1, hour 1 on Guards course: "Never break the rules, but you will have stretch them a long way sometimes to do your job." (Hence 'work-to-rule' was a very effective form of industrial action). Five coach trains (and longer), c.1980, ran with a single brake in the middle, used in fixed sets. This was to avoid shunting before return trips above all, but also made it easier for station and PO staff to know where to expect the mail, parcels and disability ramps when required.

[@DongitsModelRailway]

It also makes the trains relatively immune from getting turned around on a diagram. I guess that's why the West Coast Mainline persisted with first class at the London end for so long -- there was much less likelihood of their trains being routed such that they turned up the other way round.

[@1BCamden]

Always something to learn, thanks for sharing

[@chugwaterjack4458]

Thank you for this info. You have no idea how hard it is to find some of this stuff here in the U.S. As a boy, I grew up in Cheyenne, Wyoming, where the Challengers and Big Boys lived, but modelling those in HO (1:87) with less than 60" radius curves would result in sheer silliness, so I've decided to model UK railways. That decision has left me scratching my head a few times. (We used to be able to set our clocks by the arrival or departure of some of the Streamliners - four diesels pulling over twenty cars in a long yellow streak; and boy! we they ever fun to travel in.)

[@locohauledforum]

By the mid-80's the fast majority of loco hauled trains on BR had the brake coach and first class coaches in the center of the train, even a lot of services operating out of London - think Paddington - Oxford services, or Waterloo - Exeter's. There were off course some services which operated with a more traditional style, like the West Coast with the first class at the London end. Also by this time the majority of services were running with just 7 or 8 coaches, ideal for your layout - unless you want to run the 15 coach Jumbo trains to the West Country! All rakes were technically of a fixed formation - this is how they managed to sell seat reservations - but as you mention operational reasons often meant that some 'on the day' shuffling of reservations had to be made. The difference between TSO and SO's is that the TSO's had 2+2 seating and the SO's had 2+1 seating. It's a fascinating subject once you get in to it. One of the things that always gives me a little 'internal chuckle' is when people mix vacuum braked stock with air braked stock, or when you get something like a vacuum brake only class 44 hauling air conditioned coaches - ok if you're just playing trains, not so much when you're trying to be prototypical. Keep up the good work.

[@DongitsModelRailway]

It's almost like the SOs were really intended to be the "original" second class, and TSOs were really intended to be the "original" third class. Then you add in 'T' being both 'Tourist' and 'Third', and you've got all the elements you need for a good conspiracy theory... In a future video I'm going to cover RCH vs Pullman Gangways, Vacuum Brakes vs Air Brakes, and Steam Heat vs ETH. So many things to trip you up if you aren't paying attention...

[@hoskinb1]

A really well presented video. I am pretty clued up with the formation rules myself, and as an early Southern Region modeller, most of my coaches are in fixed sets. But it is amazing how often you go to an exhibition and see the odd passenger train with no brake vehicle or a 4 coach branch line train with 60% first class accommodation! I have shared your video with my fellow club members in order to widen their knowledge and to make it clear that every coach in every train was there for a specific reason and that the rules are there for a reason..

[@DongitsModelRailway]

I understand why people end up with too many brakes, too many restaurants, or too much first class -- because thirds/seconds/standards are often first to sell out, and command a high price second hand. When it's a home layout, I get it -- people run what they have, and they have what they can get (and what they can afford). But on exhibition layouts you'd hope they would do a bit better. If the real railway didn't have enough brakes of the same design, they'd use a different design, and that's OK. One of the future videos will be on the subject of mixing coach designs and liveries in the same train -- what you can get away with (that people don't), and what doesn't work (yet people do all the time).

[@Madonsteamrailways]

As a railway modeller, I have a small layout that depicts Walmington-on-Sea, the layout being a Dad’s Army layout. I have three running trains on the layout. One is the freight train, and two take passengers. The locomotives are Southern Green, as are the carriages.

[@stephenbamber7408]

Really useful information well put together and explained. Thanks.

[@kenfox7917]

Up till now I always thought that the Brake coach was where the driver, fireman and guard went for a cup of tea and a cheese roll when they got some time off, and the Buffets was the big round metal bits at each end of the coach.. 😂

[@davidlee9024]

Hi, many thanks for your informative and well presented video, David from New Zealand.

[@ngaugefouroaksstreetstatio6932]

Thank you, i learned a lot of stuff, very well explained, thanks for sharing.

[@briancooper562]

Not often modelled but pre motorways, trains where the key transport link but only fully used on week ends. Holidays in summer, sports events year round, shopping at Christmas. Hence there where storage sidings empty at weekends, full during the week, and vandalism was rare.

[@dialwright]

Most informative; I already suspected a lot of it, (not all by any means) but confirmation makes modelling life more enjoyable - thank you.

[@theeventhorizon-valebridge9512]

A very useful insight and extremely well presented, thank you.

[@keaganwright124]

This is great! When are you planning to release Part 2?

[@mikebuick2332]

Very informative, clear and well described video. 👍

[@JPoulAndersson]

Hi Dongits, I didn’t know you had such a lovely layout I knew you only from Jenny’s Monday Club. Excellent info my friend! Rgds, Joachim

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

A couple of shorter formations. On the ECML you'd find the Deltic plus 8 coaches on the express trains. The Atlantic Coast Express was made up at the London end which served various destinations in the West Country.

[@Sarahbryson321]

This is a very good video, I hope this is a series!

[@DongitsModelRailway]

That's the plan :)

[@Push-ku4yy]

I hope I see more of this series!

[@aero-ow8lq]

A very, VERY useful video you have here! I don't model at the moment, but i'm hoping to get into it sooner or later when i have the space, and this video is giving me all sorts of ideas and visions for passenger rakes i could use!

[@Nick-vr2pf]

Thank you SO much for this. I couldn't figure out how to find articles on prototypical passenger formations and thankfully the algorithm showed me this. Hard to find material here in the States- subscribed!

[@leswall3061]

Really good information, never gave must thought to the brake coach but will do now

[@aaronbenjamin2]

Thanks for this video! I had this knowledge, once.. but it devided at Haywards Heath.. 🙄 I'll get my anorak 😉

[@chris-io1ki]

Great informative video. Can you do one on inter city sleeper formations if you can please. I have both mk1 and mk3 variants in my collection. In South Wales back in the early 80s,we used to see full BGs in the centre of our trains

[@samstergti9812]

Great video! So many people overlook this detail.

[@dibsyardshuntinglayout]

Brilliant information!

[@paulcartlidge9454]

Great video and really well explained. I know it is criminal but I run trains of different regions/ eras, but not at the same time 😊. Buying and putting together coaches is a bit confusing, thank you so much for helping an enthusiastic novice.

[@vickielawless]

Ah yes, coach codes. B for brake, or perhaps buffet. K meaning corridor, and also kitchen, S for 2nd class, and what about sleeper? Somehow it all works! Well done on a clear and concise explanation, and that from a coach nerd (I own a real mk2 as well as loads of 00 gauge coaches..)

[@dougalmcdougal8682]

Great stuff … with limited space I model the WHL , so a class 37 with 4 coaches , in winter is prototypical 👍

[@KarlAndDebbieTrains]

Hello Dongits, That was very useful and interesting, thank you for producing this series. Looking forward to the next one, thank you again Karl and Debbie Trains.

[@lukejackson8741]

Love this sort of content; trying to figure out the coach formations, periods and variations has always been a struggle can’t wait for part 2

[@coffeeisgood102]

Your knowledge is awesome. Wish someone here in the US had the same info and would share it. Would be interesting to compare the differences between the two countries. I really enjoyed this video.

[@AndyTurner-f4w]

Very informative video, could you please advise if possible what the coach formations would be for PSO trains and GUV motorail trains on the western region 1970s era

[@markwilson8002]

Excellent, thank you.

[@tmcg972]

Thank you for this very interesting and informative video, very well presented! Looking forward to your next episodes...👍

[@modelrailwaybackshop]

Hey, I'm from the US and model US Passenger trains. I've slowly been collecting all the cars for my 1930s version of the Northern Pacific's North Coast Limited and I've even got the train layout from where the coaches go, the sleeper cars and the Baggage and mail cars for the train. and it's being pulled by my Northern Pacific Class A 4-8-4 Northern Type locomotive from W&R Enterprises. so hopefully I can get all the cars I need by the end of 2024.

[@DongitsModelRailway]

That's the great thing about high profile, named trains; you can often find documentation about how they were arranged. Good luck finding all the right coaches for it :-)

[@miketreehouse]

I enjoyed this, thanks.

[@fentoncentral-ngauge]

Excellent info. What is the layout they are running on throughout?

[@DongitsModelRailway]

There are two layouts in the video. The one that's all plywood is my layout. The one that is all scenic is the Chatham & District Model Railway Club layout.

[@fentoncentral-ngauge]

@@DongitsModelRailway Thanks. Both great layouts 👌

[@LennixAlexander]

Really useful, thank you very much. My knowledge of British Rail coaching stock is pretty good but I learned around two things that I wasn't aware of from this video.

[@HushabyeValleyRailroad]

Intresting video, but i must admit i just run whatever i want. Most of mine are MK1, but in general, as long as the coaches look the same, then im not really fussed. I juat enjoy running the trains and watch them go round the layout.

[@jacobstrains-vr6uw]

Down on my line we had one or two sets of Gresley articulated coaches and the break bit was at the loco end not the trailing end

[@thomasm1964]

Presumably the brake was at the tail end on the return journey though, assuming that carriages were not detached and re-attached.

[@martinpattison1567]

In the steam long haul services where would the second Crew stay and at the change time the first crew would be covered in soot dust etc. I am talking about the trains that had a corridor Tender? Would it be in a brake coach behind the Tender? I have not seen any manufacturer make a model of this coach. I did send an email to Hornby to which I got a reply. Martin. (Thailand) "Yorkdale LNER Preservation Railway"

[@DongitsModelRailway]

ECML express corridor tenders and the working practices required for non-stop London to Scotland runs are a fascinating subject. Yes, they changed crews on the move, crossing over from the tender into the coach behind via a Pullman style gangway, which the LNER had adopted as the standard on all it's coaching stock. By convention it should have been a brake coach next to the tender with the van end facing outwards, but the gangway was a standard type and would connect to any LNER coach. There will be more about gangways in a future video...

[@beeble2003]

The corridor tenders were only used on non-stop services. For a regular long distance service, they'd simply change the crew at one of the intermediate stations.

[@briancooper562]

Not UK but Europe the king of trains is the VOSE and is in the 2020's a 18 carriage train, 12 sleeper, 3 dinner cars, bar car, and 2 staff sleeper/storage cars. Basic 3 train sets, each 4 sleeper + dinner + 2 crew car/baggage as was the original service combo. The UK train is 9 carriages

[@malminstral]

Making Trains Part 1: I enjoyed this, I have just found your channel, so is part 2 coming soon?

[@edsutherland8266]

That’s one benefit of being in Scotland, where shorter trains were/are the norm. Heck, look at the Scotrail Class 43s, which are often just three carriages in the middle.

[@DongitsModelRailway]

That's interesting, I thought they all had four cars.

[@HentisRail]

Great video. I'm Looking at a Small charter rake of MK1 blue grey / intercity livery stock and possibly Network Southeast stock. Also a HST charter rake as well. Looking forward to when you cover the various HST rakes.😊

[@DongitsModelRailway]

Mixing liveries in the same train already exists as a script, as does mixing types of coach. HSTs ... that might take me a while to get around to, as they don't cross over with anything else. From the coaching stock perspective, they are definitely multiple units.

[@beeble2003]

@@DongitsModelRailway Yeah, probably most of what there is to say about HSTs is how they varied over time and between regions. At any one time and in any one region, HSTs were just a fixed formation.

[@AlanReynoldsBucklandJunction]

A very interesting video. Thanks Regards Alan :o)

[@spongebobgrumpypants6862]

I remember the mid to late 70's when West Coast main line services were, in the main, standardised. Full brake, 2 or three 1st class coaches, a buffet then 4, 5 or 6 second class coaches and possibly a brake coach at the end. Generally 10-12 coaches per formation and yes, I think I remember the 1st class being at the Euston end of the train. They were hauled by electric locos using overhead power, something the contributor doesn't deem as important as the carriage formation lol...................

[@DongitsModelRailway]

Not quite as fixed as you think at that date. New Mk3A sets were delivered complete, had a Mk2E/F BSO attached at one end and a Mk1 BG at the other, and were put into service. But no-one told maintenance to keep the Mk3As and Mk2Fs separate -- so when a TSO came out for a service, any TSO would go back in. They didn't stay in nice neat separated formations of each build series for long! It wasn't until trains started running at 110mph in the early 1980s that sets returned to all-Mk3a formations aside from the ubiquitous Mk1 BG, and hauled by an 87 (or 86/1), as to hit the required braking performance, only one non-Mk3A vehicle (plus the loco) could be in the train. That level of detail is for a later video though... As far as installing wires on layouts goes -- I certainly do care, and that's the plan on both my own layout (see the 3 year anniversary for it's current state) and on the project layout I'm part of the group working on. But the club layout does not -- and I can hardly stomp my feet and expect a club I've been a member of for all of about 6 months to tear apart a 20+ year old layout which wasn't built with sufficient vertical clearance between the tracks (and for which the gradients are already too steep in places) so I can run my trains with raised pantographs. This is a "pick your battles" scenario...

[@westhavengwr4613]

Very interesting video.

[@amazi6542]

Excellent and informative video!! Will you be talking about older stock which had observatory coaches, saloons, and push-pull sets? Cheers!

[@DongitsModelRailway]

I have a video planned which covers how to mix different builds of coaches, covering gangways, brakes, heating, and so on -- and which will include the inter-war period where the RCH and Pullman gangway standards coexisted for some time. I'm not specifically intending to cover observation coaches (which were rare and relatively well documented, restricted to very high profile trains). Push-pull operation (in particular, what control coaches can control what motive power) does sound like an interesting subject, but that's not on my radar quite yet.

[@thomasm1964]

@@DongitsModelRailway Just reading the comments on thsi video suggests you now have a "job" for life! This was a great introduction to the subject. I particularly like the explanations of the reasons behind *why* certain things were done in certain ways. Just out of interest, who - exactly - would be responsible for puttng consists togetehr? Presumably there was an element of office planning, the results of which would be handed down to the shunters - or were they trusted with knowing what had to be where? I have no idea how the logisitcs of the operation actually worked. And who would make any last minute calls that might be required? Presumably a member of the Traffic Manager's team ....

[@robertbage5052]

Very useful. Thanks.

[@ewoodrailway]

Quite an interesting video. It’s no different to if for example your layout is set in 2018 (like mine), what were shops fronts like, what cars were and more importantly weren’t around and what liveries were and weren’t around. Ps your running a class 86 without overhead or AC wires !

[@DongitsModelRailway]

... I don't think there's a class 86 in the video, but there certainly is an 85 and a 90 at various points. Good spot! The club layout I've filmed a lot of the stock on is indeed not wired (boooo...) -- but I think showing a typical WCML formation on the move using the correct loco was worth it, even if there should be wires in the scene. I will definitely be installing at least masts on my own layout -- I will look at a full wiring installation when the time comes.

[@theisraelilocomotive70414]

Say, it has been a while, but is there any chance you'll continue on with this series? Seeing as you stated you have many more pieces of information you didn't have the time to put into this video, I believe it would be most welcome to see. I'm not sure what it could be, be it the operations of pregrouping passenger equipment, perhaps styles of coaches rostered between steam, diesel, and electric services, or something not meant for passengers altogether, but given the quality of the information in this video, I think it's still worth asking what your future plans may entail. And a good day to you, of course.

[@josefbuckland]

Pip pip tally Ho great show helped me immensely see you in the next one I unveil my cricket scene in this fridays video and it’s bigger than the ashes lol.

[@graham76man]

My mum was a bit of a character. They hadn't put enough coaches on a seaside train and there were lots of passengers without seats including us! So my mum sat down on the platform in front of the engine, saying it wasn't going anywhere till they put more coaches on. Guess what they did! ☺

[@Sarahbryson321]

I really hope they didn’t. I’m sorry if they did.

[@WalterHopevalleyrailwayenthusi]

Some cracking coaches

[@mickedgeleyparkstation5391]

Ah now i know what is what,very well explained thank you.Before this to me a carriage was a carriage.👍😂😂

[@SilverGear_]

I'm going to pipe up at a slight error regarding classes and their titles in the given periods, as well as some additional information others might find useful or interesting. Second class was abolished by the Midland Railway in 1875, with their Third class stock being scrapped and Second and Third being effectively merged to the effect of Second class treatment, with Third class fare prices under the Third class title. The reasons for retaining Third as a title rather than abolishing it outright and reducing the Second class fares is because, under parliamentary law, railways had to provide a minimum service at a reasonable cost (termed "parli trains" in railway lore) under the Railway Regulation Act 1844, hence why at the turn of the century you had First and Third, but no Second. Other railways followed suit, despite their annoyance, since they risked losing traffic to the better yet cheaper competing service the Midland provided. Since the MR's neighbours were doing it, other railway neighbours had to do so as well to keep up with the former as a result. Rinse and repeat, with the last of "Second class" being abolished just after the turn of the century. I'm not familiar with boat trains and their quirks, but it would make sense that Second was retained exclusively on boat trains for the purpose of maintaining the classist divide for the sake of through fares to Europe, though in railway terms I would imagine Third and Second were treated with similarly fitted out coaching stock for the sake of simplicity and maintaining a good public image. I should also note that "Third" was renamed to "Second" in 1956 (according to everyone's favourite source of knowledge Wikipedia, and since I don't know better I'm sticking to that).

[@DongitsModelRailway]

Yes, back in the early days there were indeed three distinct classes even for internal travel. I probably should have mentioned I was talking about Grouping railways and later in this -- there's so much going on pre-grouping I couldn't possibly cover it all in such a short video. In the Grouping era and beyond, the only reference I can find to second class is in relation to boat trains where it was required for through ticketing. BR built 15 Mk1 "Boat Second" coaches. They were open saloons with 42 seats in a 2+1 layout, similar to First Opens. They were reclassified as First Opens later on.

[@neilharbott8394]

Aside from the length of a full sized express, many modelers are also limited by the pulling power of their locomotives and possible gradients on their model (some of the 70's/80's ringfield motored locos would struggle with a 5-6 car train - yeah even the King's and Castles). But if your model has a good-sized off scene storage area, you are able to run something that is longer than your station platform as a non-stop (here) express, that passes through occasionally. Personally, I tend to look at the smaller town routes, there's less reason to include food facilities (r-t-r models can be hard to source), there's more justification for composites, rather than dedicated 1st class. And even here, if you want to run some prestige express, the main (pre-BR) companies, would trial a fresh from overhaul locomotive on a local train - so you could see something like a King near Swindon, or an A4 near Doncaster, on a short non-gangway commuter. So just base your model somewhere close to the main overhaul facilities.

[@DongitsModelRailway]

Yes, that's another consideration, locomotive traction. Even modern production steam locomotives can struggle with realistically long trains and gradients. And the practice of testing newly overhauled locos on local traffic near the depot didn't end with the creation of BR. It would still be reasonable to do that into the 1960s.

[@shannonman2]

Nice to see 1Air Con Or more,!!

[@DongitsModelRailway]

Mk2D, Mk2E, Mk2F, Mk3 and Mk3A all represented -- and there might have been few sneaky others as well. Did you spot anything more unusual than that? :D

[@bobbymcloughlin3452]

UK’s Coaching Mark Stocks Throughout The Generations Production 1. Angloceltic Railways (E & C R) Mark Stock (“MK1”) 2. BREL Mark Stock (“MK2”), A. Air Brake, B. Arc Roof, C. Heritage, D. Air Con, E. Modified, F. Classic 3. BREL Mark Stock (“MK3”), A. ICE, B. Modern, C. International + ICE-AutoVans (“90”) & Sports AutoVans (“89”) 4. Metropolitan Cammell Mark Stock (“MK4”) + ICE-AutoVans, Electrical DVT (For Suburban Stock) 5. Both The CAF Mark Stock & The Mark HST Stock (“MK5”) Prototypes 1. Cravens Mark Stock 2. Swindon Mark Stock 3. Crewe Mark Stock

[@mikeatpudhamjunction2323]

Thanks for sharing. Stay safe.

[@tripwire3992]

this video was well made, but im doing this for fun not serious modelling, so i think im going to not follow the rules, again. fantastic video for the serious type though

[@gordonhewitson5490]

I have coaches but I have no idea what is what they doors windows & wheels after that that's me beat 😂

[@FredWilbury]

Well what can I say 😎☕️

[@QuackVideo]

If Hornby has lost a significant amount of money, that might explain why they've got into bed with Coca Cola

[@fatwalletboy2]

Just gotta go and watch some paint dry.......

[@CarlosAlberto-ii1li]

Far too much anorak for me.