Mansfield Park by Jane Austen Review pt. 2 | Book Chats

[@parkviewmo]

These two videos allowed you to discuss a deep and layered novel in enough detail to help prospective readers and those of us who have read it to better understand and appreciate it. I think this is the novel where Jane Austen really lets loose and critiques the society of her age as harshly as she thinks it deserves. Your review was excellent.

[@Boylit]

I agree that Austen is bolder in her critique of society in this novel than in any of the others. That is why Mansfield Park feels so different from the rest of her novels and why it is a more controversial work. I am glad to hear your feedback about the longer format. Thanks.

[@RH-fh1rn]

I love how Jane Austen so masterfully portrays how Mary Crawford can be so manipulative. Her joy is to see Edmund's will and principles break. Great character development.

[@valeriebrogan1953]

Thank you SO much for your thoughtful, gentle presentation. It is obvious that you have read this book with an open mind, beautiful sensitivity, sharp perception and great intelligence. Thank you.

[@Boylit]

Thank you so much for this extremely kind comment! Means a lot. Glad you enjoyed the video :)

[@davidsaks8752]

Mrs Norris is really the 'Wicked Stepmother" of the piece (her conniving to get Fanny excluded from the visit to Sotherton calls to mind Cinderella's not being allowed to go to the ball for one thing). I see her as a disappointed woman. She is childless, and her elderly husband dies early in the book. By contrast, her one sister has made an excellent marriage and has four children and her other, despite making a bad marriage, is even more fertile. Mrs Norris, as a result of Lady Bertram's indolence, is able to express her thwarted maternal instincts to some extent through her nieces (especially through Maria), and of course makes a disastrous hash of it. That would all be quite poignant were it not for her taking her frustrations and disappointed hopes out on her other niece from the sister who made an 'unfortunate' marriage. Psychologically one of JA's 'truest' characters.

[@nhmisnomer]

Mrs. Norris was probably a horrible person's wife - judgemental and meddlesome with the parisioners.

[@SpinstersLibrary]

Great part 2! This is the first review of yours that I'm watching (certainly not the last) but I do enjoy this more detailed analytical format. Mrs Norris is perfect as a side character, you can tell she's really pulling the strings. The true villain of this novel, and she is so well written, because she seems so real and is still both hilarious and infuriating to read about. I actually found Lady Bertram to be quite an interesting character too, she seems so shut off from everything and it's hard to tell whether her complete indifference to the world is real or a cover for some deeper unhappiness. I do think that Edmund is portrayed in a more negative light than you showed him though, he says some really horrible things to Fanny, and to Mary Crawford too. When he breaks off contact with her, he blames her for having blinded him, when really she never pretended to be anything other than herself.

[@Boylit]

I agree with you on Edmund. The more I think about him, the less satisfied I am with him and with Fanny’s admiration of him. Again, I get the feeling that he’s supposed to be liked, and I guess that’s why I chose to focus on that in the video, but the more I think about his actions, the more egotistical he seems to me. Reading your comment, I remembered his reaction to the idea of Fanny moving in with Mrs. Norris. What was that?! Mansfield Park is a really complex and nuanced novel, that it definitely merits a second read. I love these discussions! Thank you for your thoughtful comments and for your feedback.

[@seto749]

Lady Bertram does manage to score over Mrs Norris rather nicely on multiple occasions; she's quite a favourite with me.

[@Icetor01]

One parallel I noticed: that detail of Aunt Norris’s character (her interference in the business of others to make herself feel important) reminded me of Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice. Both are portrayed as self-important and snobbish and not very amiable or sensible.

[@di3486]

It’s impressive to me that a Textbook narcissist was described so well by Austen in the character or Henry Crawford. The incredible insight, maturity and intuition of Fanny saved her of a miserable existence with such a monster!

[@Boylit]

So many of these great writers were psychologists even before psychology was a thing, and Austen could definitely draw up characters with incredible realism and insight into their psyche.

[@Katherine_The_Okay]

I think, for some books, shortform reviews are just fine. But, for some (like this one), it really needs a longer review and discussion to do it justice. I enjoy both formats from you, and am starting to be really glad that i recently discovered youtube's bookish corner :)

[@Boylit]

Thanks for the feedback. I am happy to hear that you and others do not have a problem with/prefer this longer format for certain books.

[@reginawhitlock4227]

One thing, if it wasn't for Mrs, Norris, Fanny never would have come to Mansfield Park.

[@Ediadana]

Thank you for your review. Aunt Norris was the one who treated Fanny the worst, but also was she the one who did the single best thing for Fanny. She arranged for her to come to Mansfield Park. This one thing, even if she did it with evil intent, which I do not know, was the kindest thing anyone ever did for Fanny. This makes the part aunt Norris plays a great deal more complex.

[@cathipalmer8217]

There is one other character in Austen (Anne Elliott's friend, Mrs. Smith) who is identified as a slaveowner. Both references are treated so casually that I get the impression that neither Austen nor her society in general had much of an opinion about it. It seems to be just one way to have money.

[@jm15xy]

I am not a Christian, but having recently reread Mansfield Park, it made me think how, in Mansfield Park and in the Bertram family, all the seven deadly sins are more or less embodied in one or more of the characters; it also made me think of the late ancient poem "Psyhcomachia", which is an allegorical battle between the deadly sins personified and personified virtues which are supposed to defeat them. These are the seven virtues mentioned: humility (as opposed to pride), kindness (as opposed to envy), patience (as opposed to wrath), diligence (as opposed to sloth), charity (as opposed to greed), temperance (as opposed to gluttony), and chastity (as opposed to lust); Fanny has moments or is which illustrate these virtues, or is described either with these terms or very similar. Fanny has an ambiguous status within the Bertram household, not equal but not abjectly subordinate; in criticizing the Bertrams' treatment of Fanny, one could build a moral criticism of slavery based on the suffering of its victims but also in the corrupting influence it has on the people who practice it and benefit from it. At the end of the novel Fanny becomes a full member of the Bertram family, but the issue of the basis on which Mansfield Park itself rests is left unchanged, and the values dissonance remains.

[@Boylit]

This is an interesting take. I haven’t thought about it like that before, but now reading your comment I can see it. I agree that Fanny is curiously situated in the Bertram family, and at one point she becomes indispensable to the family only to be then supplanted by her sister. As for her treatment being a representation of slavery, so much can be said about that.

[@jola-xl9xi]

Wow, I must say your comment really made me think. Your idea that Mansfield Park may refer to the seven deadly sins and seven heavenly virtues is quite fascinating. Now that I think of it, I agree that we can find some justification for such an interpretation. For example, Aunt Norris with her "economy" may in fact represent greed, while Dr. Grant, dying from apoplexy after eating "three great institutionary dinners in one week" seems to be a perfect example of gluttony. Lady Bertram would obviously represent sloth. Wrath - maybe Sir Thomas? Envy could be represented by Julia, lust by Maria and pride maybe by Mr. Crawford. The whole character of Fanny Price is built around her principle, so it may not be unreasonable to think that she may represent the virtues. While we cannot know whether Austen might have had such allegory in mind, it is certainly a fascinating idea, and I have fun looking for the traits in characters that would justify this interpretation. What can be sad for sure is that Fanny represents moral principle, and that the other characters all have their flaws.

[@katebuckfield7736]

Your summary on Mrs Norris is one of the most interesting l have listened to. She is a very under rated character. Her encouragement of the Bertram girls and her dismissive attitude towards Fanny reflected the thoughts of most the wider society.

[@preggioperson]

Your detailed approach suits me. Thank you for your thoughts on Mansfield Park.

[@Boylit]

Thank you!

[@MatrixManagement2]

Love the longer format. Please keep posting videos. Pride and Prejudice for sure!

[@Boylit]

Thank you so much. I will get back to posting videos very soon hopefully.

[@einahsirro1488]

My favorite character is Henry Crawford. I just find him very complex. And I like your long reviews!

[@Boylit]

Henry is indeed complex .. and mysterious at times. Thanks for the feedback!

[@di3486]

Henry Crawford is a textbook narcissist! Austen was a psychologist before psychology was even a thing.

[@cminmd0041]

@@di3486 Yes I think Henry and Mary are both very narcissistic, self aggrandizing and ambitious. And like a lot of people with those traits they're also very charming and attractive and that's what lets them get away with their behaviour! No one would put up with that from ugly people!!

[@Boylit]

@@di3486 Well, I guess we agree on this (even in the phrasing!) :)

[@cminmd0041]

I love you brought up the nature and nurture aspect of Fanny price. I actually believe that Jane wrote Emma and Fanny as the same internal woman just with totally different upbringings. Emma always encouraged her self confidence and worth while Fanny's environment constantly undermines her self confidence and worth.

[@Boylit]

An interesting notion. I am sure I’ll mull over that for some time now, but I do see what you mean.

[@nhmisnomer]

My intro to MP was the 1980s miniseries, which I found so boring that I didn't finish. Later, the 1990s movie sparked my interest. It inspired me to take another look and I fell in love with Austen's MP. I enjoy the book and the faithful 1980s miniseries. Now the 1990s movie rubs me the wrong way with its liberties, but I enjoy it for what it is and am grateful to have found it as a gateway into Fanny's world. Great review video, BTW 😊

[@HeyAllyHey]

I very much enjoyed this format! I feel that’s the best way to go with classics b/c it’s packed with so much detail. Never knew that Mrs. Norris from H.P. was inspired by THE Mrs. Norris 😆 Truly fitting! That cat was hated by all. Sir Bertram...I have so many thoughts & theories *sigh*...FANTASTIC 2 part review! ✌️

[@Boylit]

So glad to hear that! Thank you :)

[@pennyburkeen4377]

I liked Sir Thomas. He treated Fannie more like a person than the others (except Edmund), especially when his daughters left. He had a dance at Mansfield Park and encouraged Fannie to marry well (even though that would have been a terrible mistake. He still wanted her to do well in the way he understood.) I think going to visit her family was good for her. She came to realizations about herself that she couldn’t have come to at Mansfield Park, even though she didn’t enjoy the visit.

[@glendodds3824]

Hi. Mansfield Park is one of my favourite Austen novels and I have enjoyed listening to your comments. These days it's often said that the Bertrams were nouveau riche and had acquired their estate by making money through the slave trade. However, Sir Thomas may not have been new to the ranks of the gentry. For example, the fact that his mansion at Mansfield is modern does not automatically indicate (as is sometimes said) that the Bertrams were newcomers in genteel circles because many upper class families built themselves new homes in the 18th and early 19th century. For example, the Dukes of Argyll did so. Moreover, Mary Crawford mentions that Mansfield was 'a spacious modern-built house . . . wanting only to be completely new furnished', which suggests, to me at least, that some of the furniture may have come from a previous Bertram mansion. In addition, the fact the Sir Thomas was involved in trade does not prove that he was "new money" because some ancient landed families, like the Delavals and Lambtons, partly derived their incomes through trade. The Delavals did so by opening a bottle-making factory and the Lambtons became one of the richest families in England by mining coal. Finally, Austen often gave her gentry characters the surnames of real landed families and that is also true of the Bertrams, something which indicates that she may not have intended us to view Sir Thomas as parvenu.

[@Boylit]

This is quite informative, even beyond the novel. Thank you for sharing! I hadn’t given their history a lot of thought to be honest. Looking back now, their manners and behavior does not strike me as that of the typical nouveau riche, so I agree with you that maybe they have deeper roots in the gentry. However, perhaps their current quality and style of life is dependent on Sir Bertram’s involvement in the slave trade. Or at least it seems so. The novel is not very clear on that. Like I said, it’s just something that is uncomfortably present in the story. Anyway, I’m glad you enjoyed the review! Cheers.

[@jasminebolly]

I can see a resemblance between Mrs Norris and Fanny Ferrars Dashwood in Sense & Sensebility - both selfish, manipulative,greedy & cruel .

[@tonyausten2168]

Boylit i prefer anyway that makes you comfortable. I will watch avidly. My opinion about Mrs. Norris is that she is a tragic figure in Mansfield Park. She no more invisible as Fanny Price is. Even thought Mrs. Norris seemingly appears to be the great house manager. Any mistreatment she extends to Fanny is what has been done to her - two folds. The fact that she agreed to be banished with her niece, is proof that is not so bad after all. Her services will not end from quitting Mansfield, Maria will make her busy.

[@charlesiragui2473]

Was Mrs Norris so evil? Some have described her behavior as child abuse but as I contemplate what child abuse is legally, then she is not that bad. She certainly believes that Fanny should be put back in her low place at every turn but does she berate her with pointless cruelty, does she strike her when no one is watching? Significantly, when she gets the chance to have Fanny live with her, where Fanny would be completely under her thumb, she sees only the threat of expense, not the opportunity for torture and total domination. Am I being too kind? I don't think so. There are people exactly like this. Much more evil people. Is it possible that Willoughby (Sense and Sensibility) is that kind of evil (gratuitous deflowering and abandonment of Miss Williams)? Instead, I think the slavery parallel is more instructive. Mrs Norris sees Fanny as a pack animal who should be made to work as much as is possible to recover the expense laid out for her upkeep. And as all slaves and pack animals, they must be psychologically managed to train them for perfect obedience and productivity. From the first, Mrs Norris and Sir Thomas see Fanny as an expense and possible hindrance to the household: a utility experiment, where the pluses and minuses are tallied to see if the venture has a net positive value. Ok, so that sounds pretty evil, equating Mrs Norris' behavior to that of slave holders. But I would say that one of the greatest costs of slavery is the temptation to sadism and the outlet for sadism and Sir Thomas is a strict but not cruel master to Fanny and Mrs Norris is in effect his local overseer, eager to prove her worth by pushing the slave a bit more harshly than the master. I would not say that they are sadists. Fanny could have had it much worse. And that's exactly what she thinks too. Sir Thomas is effectively vindicated in his belief that Fanny will regret leaving Mansfield Park when she lives with her birth family. Sir Thomas side note: One of the intriguing aspects of JA's story is the clear transformation of Sir Thomas as he returns from his slave plantation: he is less strict in general and much kinder and more thoughtful towards Fanny. What happened in Antigua? Perhaps he just has become more indulgent due to the fondness stemming from long absence. (Of course, only Fanny questions slavery, basically the only time she ever speaks up and as usual without stimulating conversation or exchange, because she is too moral for her companions.) But is it possible that he simply likes the progress his pack animal has made? She is looking more valuable on the marriage market due to her improved looks. JA portrays Mrs Norris and Sir Thomas as essentially conservative utilitarians: morality is what makes my family better off. Clearly, JA reproves of this attitude. Last thought on Mrs Norris: JA or Fanny observes that Mrs Norris and Mrs Price should have been in each others' shoes. Part of the smallness of Mrs Norris is her lack of children and if she'd had nine on a small budget, her personality would have come off far better. Probably her children would have resented her but they would have grown up in a more orderly environment. Is JA even suggesting that Mrs Norris would have possibly been a more loving person if she'd had her own children to dote on? Given her lack of moral guidance of Maria and Julia, it doesn't seem likely that she would have done better with children of her own.

[@surfinggirl007]

Brilliant contextualisation of Sir Bertram having slaves being morally unacceptable even by his own British society standards.

[@miranda8598]

Is there an alternative ending to Mansfield Park (too)? I only knew about the deleted/altered chapter endings in Persuasion. :)

[@Boylit]

I don’t think Austen wrote a complete alternative ending, but I read somewhere (can’t remember where or find it again now!) that there were some comments in the manuscript showing that she was thinking about having Fanny marry Henry and Edmund ending up with Mary.

[@elishevaborenson4609]

Enjoyed your insights

[@bw3839]

I absolutely enjoyed this video! Fanny is one of the most underrated heroines IMO- she was so strong and Mrs Norris the absolute worse lol

[@Boylit]

Glad you liked it! I agree that she’s underrated, but I am happy to see that the novel and Fanny are getting a lot of love in this comment section.

[@seto749]

Maria and Julia were beautifully summed up in one sentence, "Their vanity was in such good repair that they appeared to be quite free of it," or something very similar. I'd describe Edmund more as "morally upright" than as having a good heart. Much agreement about the ending - it felt as if Miss Austen were bending Mary's character to fit Fanny's interpretation of it. Mrs Norris does earn the lion's share of the discourse. I'm sorry the admirable Mrs Grant (who more than anyone else had the temperament to love and be loved) was omitted, though.

[@Boylit]

I agree about Edmund. Morally upright with a bit of hypocrisy on the side. I said in the review that the more I thought I about the less I was inclined to like him, and that’s why I probably should have given him more thought before filming 😅. I would love to talk about all of the characters in Austen, since even the most minor ones are interesting and contribute in a way or another to the story, but that’s now always feasible in these reviews.

[@coloraturaElise]

I know I've read that Mrs. Norris was based on a person she knew well, perhaps her oldest brother James' wife. Of course, the character in the book would be an exaggeration, but I like to imagine Jane writing her lines and saying to herself, "take that, you witch!" I can't enjoy Mrs. Norris as an Austen villain myself because she's just too horrible. Besides her awful treatment of Fanny, she spoiled the Bertram girls, Maria in particular (Julia actually benefitted from being younger and somewhat ignored, as she did in the case of Henry ignoring her), and she's simply the most outrageous hypocrite. I suppose she's too lifelike for me to enjoy.

[@Boylit]

If Mrs. Norris was based on a real person Austen knew, then she definitely unleashed all she had on it and probably just had too much fun writing this character. But this is a reminder that characters like Mrs. Norris in real life are just too terrible and can cause very serious problems for the people around them.

[@charlesiragui2473]

On Nature v Nurture: I wonder to what extent the doctrine of Predestination played a role in JA's writing of this book. Her father was a minister and, given the conflict of branches of Protestantism within England (more Catholic v more Calvinist), it seems like this could have been an influence with regards to the characters. They don't change and in the case of the Crawfords they cannot change, even though they feel inclination to do so. The Crawfords cannot turn from what they are (Nature). Or, JA is instead promoting the importance of good parenting, noting the bad influence of the Admiral on the Crawfords and the bad influence of Sir Thomas' strictness on his daughters (Nurture).

[@katinphilly1312]

Go for the deeper dives man!

[@Boylit]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@helenavalentine9718]

My favorite Austen work too. Given her upbringing, Fanny’s strength of character is impressive. Yes, hate Aunt Norris.

[@thesisypheanjournal1271]

It's actually not clear that Sir Thomas owned slaves, only that he was knowledgeable about the slave trade. Fanny would likely not have wanted to draw him out about the slave trade (only holding back so she wouldn't make her cousins look bad for their own lack of interest) if he was actively participating in something that he knew was morally wrong or even questionable.

[@linatawil1024]

👍👍👍👍💖💖💖💖🌷🌷🌷

[@mcmurtryfan]

As to your presentation, I think that the degree to which you delve into a novel should depend on the novel. Vary your approach as needed. Mansfield Park is complicated and commands much scrutiny and consideration. I do believe that Sir Thomas Bertram being a slave owner directly relates to his treatment of his own family. Very intentional on Austen's part. I've thought that Lady Bertram's listlessness is a result of her husband's autocratic control over the family.

[@expat5854]

Lady Bertram is very much like Fanny's mother, but has the advantage of being rich and having a house full of servants. But she isn't stupid as she is often portrayed; she quite frequently makes pretty insightful comments, such as when Mrs. Norris talks about her straitened means as a widow and Lady Bettram seems to know that this is not really the case. Fanny's mother is as incapable as Lady Bertram of planning, budgeting and managing a household but can't afford decent servants. Mrs. Norris, with her cheeseparing ways would probably have been much better at raising a large family on a limited income. She might have even gotten her drunken husband to shape up.

[@jjjnettie]

Do you think Sir Bertram, after seeing how his slaves are treated, realises that Fanny is being treated in much the same way? Would that explain his change towards her upon his return to the family home?

[@Boylit]

An interesting point. Perhaps. Definitely something happened that made him soften towards Fanny after his return. But I am hesitant to make any judgement about the slave-trade business and how it speaks to Sir Bertram’s character, beyond what I mentioned in the video. There isn’t much in the book to build on (at least nothing I could pick up on in my first reading).

[@expat5854]

@@Boylit Problems with his plantation on Antigua allowed Austen to send Sir Thomas away for a fairly long space of time so that the plot could develop in the way it does. Had Sir Thomas remained at home, the theatricals with all of their accompanying issues and maybe even the engagement to Rushworth might never have come to pass. At the time, it would have been a believable scenario.

[@panchitaobrian1660]

stop inventing problems that didn´t exist for Austen and her contemporary society! Are you guys out of your mind? Why not to try and see discussion of covid19 in Romeo and Julia? Do not try read between the lines in the book - you are not very good at it

[@jjjnettie]

@panchitaobrian1660 You've not actually read any of Austens books, have you. Slavery is bought up, not just in Mansfield Park but also in Emma and Persuasion.

[@jjjnettie]

@Boylit :) She gives us food for thought on the subject though.

[@panchitaobrian1660]

to even discuss slavery talking about JA novel is just unbelievable. Why not dicsuss global warming or migration problems when you are already on that kind of 21th century topics. Austen, being deeply religious, could morally judge the system of slavery in America, but she did not discuss it in her novels. After all, the social standing of low classes in England was not much better in that period

[@Pepperjack1986]

I'd only seen the 1999 film adaptation, which, not gonna lie, made me despise all of the characters. I actually have steered clear of the actual book because of the movie. My mom loves BBC and Masterpiece Theatre, so growing up I'd pretty much seen all the adaptions of Jane Austen's books before I ever got to read any of the source material. So after seeing a film, I would decide to read the actual book for comparison. Mansfield Park was the only one of her works I just didn't want to read after seeing a film. I'm still trying to work up the nerve to watch the version that came out in 2007.

[@Boylit]

I haven’t seen either adaptation. Maybe I should stay away from the 1999 one? I hope you end up reading the novel at one point, but even if you don’t, there’s still so much of Austen to enjoy! By the way, I love that you grew up to the world of Jane Austen, whether watching or reading the stories :)

[@expat5854]

The old (1980?) British miniseries is my favorite, with Sylvestra LeTouzel as an excellent Fanny, in my view. The so-called production values in this older version are a bit dated, and perhaps some of the acting is closer to legitimate theater, but on the whole it's very faithful to the book and doesn't tty to modernize Austen as is the case with many other versions. I found the 1999 one absolutely horrible. BTW, Anna Massey is an absolutely wonderful Mrs. Norris!

[@preggioperson]

If you tie down a few examples of illuminating behaviour, meanness, kindness etc your excellent contribution contribution might be enriched.

[@Boylit]

Thanks for the suggestion. I get worried about taking too much time, but having gotten feedback that people don’t mind the lengthy format, I’ll try to do that more.

[@joanvanore322]

I prefer your taking the time you need to develop your ideas.

[@Boylit]

Thank you.

[@RitaCwise]

I like the inclusion of the Mrs. Norris. You need a variety of characters for an interesting book. If everyone was sweet the book would be very boring.

[@Boylit]

I completely agree!

[@marciamusser3179]

Don’t forget how greedy she is

[@Boylit]

True! Hoarding vegetables and whatnot always cracked me up, but her greed had its more serious aspects of course.

[@panchitaobrian1660]

well yeah, it was an extremely naive recension, you seem to be ten year old. Btw, Mrs Norris´s behaviour not "would be a child abuse", it was child abuse. I don´t know how you guys "love to hate" some character- it is something the new generation had discovered :))