Crankset Under Rotation causes wear & friction

[@johnlesoudeur3653]

Clear educational video for people with a non-engineering background. It seems that quality control is not in a good place in the cycle industry even though prices have gone through the roof and buying a bijou frame is no guarantee of acceptable engineering standards. The shift to carbon frames without fully addressing their requirements together with all the different BB standards has become a real minefield for both bike shops and their customers.

[@Mapdec]

It sure has. I hope we are doing our bit to help.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

This isn't new, poor alignment was common with high end steel frames decades ago.

[@rodcosta2345]

I'll never have the ability to do such repairs but here I am, fully engrossed on the process and your clear explanations! Great work!

[@marlonfranklin7238]

They should definitely reconsider the Hambini solution. As the owner of the ‘wonky wilier’ I can vouch for how amazing it is. Expertly installed too of course 😉

[@Mapdec]

☺️

[@aljaliah6868]

The noise at the end ....................absolute creativity

[@Mapdec]

🤗

[@daviddjerassi]

Beyond excellent no one is doing this exacting work other than Mapdec and Hambini i never saw this problem before raced for 16 plus years on alloy frames with screw in BB so easy to fit and service thank you for this video.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you. Don’t dis pressfit. It opens up so much frame design possibilities, we just need to learn how to use it.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

Aluminum frames were often built with poor tolerances too. You may have had one without noticing simply because your cranks spun well enough for poor alignment to not be blatantly obvious

[@joelv4495]

​@@veganpotterthevegan the real issue is that it was pretty easy to correct steel/aluminum BSA shells to "good enough" performance using common machine shop tools and know-how...

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@joelv4495 not at all. If your shell isn't perpendicular to the front to back plane of the bike, those tools aren't helping you. If they don't create a straight line within reason, machining tools aren't helping either unless you cut out the BB and weld in a new one

[@ridethelakes]

Brilliant video, Mapdec setting the standard for other bike shops (and bike manufacturers!) to follow. I wouldn't trust anywhere else with my bikes.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you.

[@Captinfun101]

I came across your channel looking for bb solutions, you have excellent knowledge and help to fix these problems we should have really never had. I will never buy another press fit bb ever again . That being said if quality control isn’t proper threaded still can give headaches. But thanks.

[@stephenbarnes5850]

I wish all lbs would be able to work with this level of knowledge and engineering expertise, love what you are doing keep it coming

[@Mapdec]

We are on a mission

[@Leviathandk]

Well.. Most customers wont pay for it....

[@Mapdec]

@@Leviathandk they will when things start to creak.

[@j.k.b5014]

BB30 to bsa adapter, regular threated shimano bb, put them in a vice with wooden plates between, and pressed them in. Ultegra cranks go in and happy days!

[@JaiJai71104]

I'm all in for these tools .Fantastic concept

[@Mapdec]

Thank you

[@Blaze_75-y3l]

As you said in the video, this specific wear appears also on hollowtech crankshaft despite the use of a relatively soft plastic sleeve to fill the gap between shaft and inner diameter of bearings. In a way, this may help to compensate a little for poor radial tolerances. But no miracles, if the bearings are not properly and regularly serviced, the shaft will spin inside the sleeve and wear will take place. Even if the plastic sleeve can be considered as a sacrificial part as much softer than high strength steel, shaft will be damaged if moisture or dust are present. I bought a used shimano lx crankset on the web and i realized after transaction that what i thought to be just grease sludge on the shaft at first glance was actualy hiding wear and corrosion reducing thickness of about 1 mm. Screwed ! Although the cranks are supposed to be pressed onto sleeves by the adjustment bolt, this doesn't seem to be enough. The side surface of the plastic sleeve could have had teeth on the surface to mechanically fit into some dedicated slots on the cranks.

[@gillesaarts]

I would certainly order those tools!

[@alfaromeo1996]

I saw that bike at the Fred Whitton on Sunday!

[@phil_d]

It might be worth considering a 30 degree taper on the ground 25mm shaft that you would blue to give you a very good Iindication of the angle where misalignment is taking place. IYSWIM. If you have one of your guages installed with a needle roller bearing you should get near zero wobble of the shaft over that small distance to the other gauge.

[@Mapdec]

That’s a great idea. I’ll give it a try.

[@richardgreenfield78]

Great video, I've invested in plug gauges, internal micrometers & adjustable parallels to verify the BB shell - your tool for checking parallelism seems to be efficient and accurate method to check alignment, I would be very interested in such a checking tool.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you

[@Cyclingchoice]

I just bought a thread together token ninja BB to solve a similar issue, I notice the token BB cup.size is 40.95 compared to duraace cup size of 41 mm, the token BB is going into the the frame for about 1/3 the way with just pressing by hand , so I believe the threaded together BBs are smaller in diameter because they rely on the threading mechanism to apply tension and might prevent the bearing get crushed when installed on a slightly undersized BB shell , I am still reluctant to tighten up the token BB fully given that I ruined my duraace BB during the first install. Wish I had a 40.85 gauge. Great content as always.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you. You should tighten those to spec. They can otherwise spin in the frame.

[@Cyclingchoice]

@@Mapdec I haven't used a tool to tighten it yet , yes will have to torque it to around 30 nm for a proper fit

[@thematrickx1]

Very educational, informative video, I learned a lot, thanks.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you

[@jackiegammon2065]

I would definitely be interested in purchasing these when they become available, but wonder if all of the BB sizes will be available? I typically do a lot of older bikes, and that includes square taper BB's and a couple that are truly old that do not have sealed bearings at all. I have indeed thought about what you just did, but there truly is nothing on the market to help...glad that you are starting in that direction! (Shop name is Chase Cyclery)

[@carlcole9026]

Hambini is not the only one making thread together BB's. Some of these will include bearings for 30mm spindle and 41mm bb shell......Kogel, Cane Creek, Token, BBright, Tri Peak, and more. Jeez, give the poor guy some options. I'm just a hobbiest, no mechanic here! I do compliment your You Tube efforts. Thanks, Carl NKC

[@Mapdec]

Bb infinite do make a one piece 41mm to M30. I’m in a bit of a dispute with them at the moment about the durability of those bearings for off road use. The others only make 2 piece BB and would require some heavy frame modifications and adhesives to work.

[@rjl6789]

Do you think a problem with distributing these sort of tools to bike shops would be that the majority of frames supplied by the manufacturers would “fail”? Maybe a good way to get them to up their game? Or would it be a case of them bullying the little bike shops into accepting sub par frames?

[@Mapdec]

I think this is what bike shops need to fight back. A tool to prove quality issues and reject the junk they are being sent.

[@davidburgess741]

I believe that 24mm steel spindles are the best choice because this damage would happen more slowly. Threaded BSA outboard bearings would be a good standard if bike shops kept their BSA facing tools. Too many standards and the consumer looses. Low quality control and high prices = no sale!

[@veganpotterthevegan]

Facing tools don't fix every problem with threaded bbs.

[@gammelgemse]

@@veganpotterthevegan no tool fixes every problem.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@gammelgemse ok?

[@Simon_MCC]

Had this exact issue when trying to use a Quarq PM with a BB86 frame. Rotor BB cups that felt fine out of the frame but compressed to the point where they would barely spin freely when installed. Lesson? Stick to Shimano with BB86.

[@StreamBikesNL]

Very informative and thanks for sharing this valuable info!

[@Mapdec]

Thank you.

[@JamesSocialCycling]

Looks like you’ve been inventing👌 I’m not sure what sort of response you’ll get from some LBS, due to the fact they’ve been ignoring BB quality for too many years now. I’ve finally ridden my new Trek SL5 and would you believe it if I told you I have a noise , down stroke drive side when I am putting the power down up and hill… been here before and you just get blank looks that you’re crazy! I’ll try some old pedals and put the original wheels on before moving forward with my LBS. I have however got myself a T47 Hambini special, but it’s threaded, so if bad alignment it won’t fix the issue I suspect. More videos please, you’ve been quiet😁 always enjoy the educational value, it’s so appreciated😊

[@Mapdec]

Thank you. Holidays and the Fred Whitton rush.

[@ramsden35]

Pure craftsmanship

[@Mapdec]

🙏

[@anthonylarson7919]

a pickled iron or granite surface platform and V blocks to support that shaft....

[@janeblogs324]

9:05 get rid of the Teflon you just sprayed in there lol. Curious why you didn't try sanding the BB back to concentric as per you're other video? I assume shimano used nylon BB cups & nylon spindle sleeves as the nylon will eventually crush and effectively straighten the BB out

[@Mapdec]

Put simply, we were not being paid to correct it… for now.

[@donoldduckben]

I was looking at the time frame the whole video

[@Mapdec]

Patience. It’s coming

[@hjuha19010]

nicely done!! May I assume that the owner can get a different/smaller shaft crank and bottom bracket setup?

[@Mapdec]

Yes. I am sure I discussed this at the end of the vid. Sorry if it wasn’t clear.

[@Caleketa]

Hi Paul, great video. A couple of weeks ago i purchased a Storck Fenomalist. It has Campagnolo Chorus 11 speed. The crankset is the so called Ultra Torque, with the bearings on the shaft and hold into the bb cups. I let my lbs replace the bearings( i don’t have the correct tools to do it) my question is, can those bb problems also occur with the Ultra Torque system? Cheers

[@Mapdec]

Hey. Yes. But you will see the witness marks on the inside of the BB cups rather than the shaft.

[@jamble7k]

what's the difference between that silicone sealant vs. something like loctite 609

[@Mapdec]

Oh. That’s probably a future vid. Great question. 1. Do as instructed 2. If that’s not possible make the best choice from available knowledge and experience.

[@youling1997]

I'm a bit confused about the solution. What does that new BB do exactly? How does it remedy the situation?

[@Mapdec]

Take a look at the Hambini website. The one piece design does the alignment work instead of the frame

[@youling1997]

Got it. Is the bb in the video one side pressed into another side/shell?

[@dimitrifayolle896]

@@youling1997 It seems that this bike does not use any BB at all, just the bearings pressed directly into the shell

[@Mapdec]

Kind of. The outer race is flanged and groved. You couldn’t buy an ISO bearing for the frame. It would need to be something sold as a BB86 to M30 bottom bracket.

[@deanf2259]

Paul, why did you use Loctite Silicone sealant rather than Loctite retaining compound on this BB?

[@Mapdec]

Simple really. It’s in the Praxis instructions. Mechanics follow instructions

[@tweettweettwitch]

Should a retaining compound like loctite 641 or lithium grease or nothing at all be applied on the shaft/spindle - bearing shell interface? Looking to reduce/prevent abrasion/galling of aluminum spindle on the steel shell of BB30 6801 bearing

[@Mapdec]

Bearing grease. Neither of those 2 options.

[@tweettweettwitch]

Oh thanks, i thought/presumed bearing grease was just for the ball bearings inside the races.

[@carlcole9026]

Let me correct my comment...Pls replace bbright with bbinfinite. I am easily confused.....

[@RichChh]

Thanks for the video! If the holes are misaligned, would the bottom bracket facing tool help in that situation?

[@Mapdec]

No. That just makes the face square.

[@rp6760]

I would have fit a Hambini bottom bracket and change to a 24mm or GXP (24/22mm) crank.

[@Mapdec]

Thanks. I’m pretty sure i discussed this at the end, but so many have commented the same I’m starting to doubt myself now 😳

[@maxreynolds3538]

Why was the crankset removed in the first place? To see if the anodising on the shaft was worn? I bet the anodising would be worn in those spots even in a hambini bottom bracket

[@Mapdec]

To change the chainrings. You only see this in poor frames.

[@Steven-Sea_gull]

Great content as always paul . Disappointing to see yet another high end frame with a tolerance issue manufacturers aren't doing themselves any favours but still demand a kings ransom for new bikes frames . Time we bucked the trend and stopped paying over inflated prices for poor QC 🤔

[@Mapdec]

thnak you.. We need to change this attitude and start throwing frames back.

[@JS-up8ff]

Genuine question: why did we move away from square taper bottom brackets? I mean, my old MTB has square taper and never serviced that in 14 years time and they run just perfect.

[@Mapdec]

Mostly to save weight. Later to open up frame design for wider tyres esp in MTB.

[@JS-up8ff]

@@Mapdec I can't help it but to think that a lot of the "save weight" features really diminished the durability of MTBs and it's parts. Like I said, my old MTB is 14 years and never serviced any bearings at all, and it just runs great. No play, no strange noises. It does weigh 14kg for a alu hardtail and only has 8 gears at the rear. But still... We pay so much nowadays for bikes and they can hardly work half a year without any service. How does ditching the square taper help for wider tires? Wasn't it possible to just make the bike wider where the bottom bracket is and also equally widen the square taper shaft and everything?

[@Mapdec]

@@JS-up8ff hey man. I’m just a mechanic. Engineers make stuff, consumers buy it. I fix it. 🤷‍♂️

[@JS-up8ff]

@@Mapdec I know. It was no argument against you. I highly value your opinion on stuff because you have a clear and good mind on stuff and quality. I watch almost all of your videos just because of that. There aren't many people who think and act the way you do. Was just curious about how it transition from taper to what we have now and how it "got better" compared to.

[@user-cx2bk6pm2f]

Thanks for the education.

[@shannonparker7404]

It was all going well until I saw that beautiful TIME frame in the background. Then it was blah blah blah as I began to drool…

[@Mapdec]

That’s the next vid… or Maybe the one after.

[@steveadorjan9048]

@@Mapdec I really hope it's the next one. Been waiting ever since you posted the teaser ADHX vid :)

[@shannonparker7404]

@@Mapdec Now ya just teasing! Lol

[@matthewpeet1]

But you could have changed the crankset to a Shimano version with a 24mm axle and then it would have allowed for a Hambini BB, or did the customer not want that?

[@Mapdec]

I thought I discussed that towards the end of the vid. But, yes.

[@zedddddful]

I do wonder if a massive rush of warrantying these dodgy frames maybe concentrate the manufacturer's minds on some actual QC before they ship can you imagine if the automotive industry had this just send them attitude.

[@Mapdec]

☺️

[@sabamacx]

Ace video.

[@Mapdec]

Thank you

[@jbkltc4469]

are your re-fitting bearings that you pressed out?

[@Mapdec]

In this case yes, it’s explained why in the vid.

[@jbkltc4469]

@@Mapdec so customer came with bad BB, you checked everything, said "no it's fine", reinstalled used bearings and charged him for your expertise?

[@Mapdec]

No. Did you watch the video?

[@andyhodge9703]

The solution is proper qc from manufacturers who charge an arm and a leg for something that should never have left the factory .

[@Mapdec]

Yes. But if we ain’t checking they will get away with it. Everything needs an audit

[@jonedmonds283]

Very Good!

[@Mapdec]

Thank you

[@chrisharper2658]

Still down in that cartridge bearing rabbit hole, I see. I've got a number of old cup and cone BBs that have never exhibited any problems. But they have an axle and loose bearings. Very strange, the industry just keeps on going in that direction. I guess we can't turn back now.

[@Mapdec]

I guess. We have been using cartridge bearings. For quite a while now…..

[@chrisharper2658]

@@Mapdec Long enough to realize that maybe the old way wasn't so bad but the blinders are still on. So now all the very specialized tools and fixes. But hey, whatever... there are no real brainy-acks in charge.

[@Mapdec]

ISO cartridge style bearings are a significantly positive step forward. They are pretty universal in everything now. Even Shimano is waving good bye to the cup and come past.

[@chrisharper2658]

@@Mapdec define significantly positive. All while have to fix all the problems they've created.

[@Mapdec]

More accurate, weather sealed, preload, huge range of ISO sizes, easy to replace, less effort to get smoother faster result…..

[@markpdouglas]

Inspecting the blue dye for witness marks on the test shaft doesn't make any sense. If it's perfectly round, it should bind for a full rotation. Surely the only place to inspect for witness marks to indicate tights spots is on the bushes that are in the frame. If the shaft is only binding in one or two places, it suggests that the shaft is not perfectly cylindrical/not perfectly straight.

[@Mapdec]

Umm. A machined piece of steel not being straight. Possible, highly unlikely, and easy to test by rolling on a flat table.

[@francisbeaumonde8198]

Mark Douglas is right, I was thinking exactly the same thing. How come the shaft gets stuck at some angles if it is perfectly round? It should either be stuck everywhere or run free in the perfect setup. I guess your tool is not precise enough. If in doubt ask around with real engineers,🙃

[@Mapdec]

@@francisbeaumonde8198 This has been designed with help with a few engineers, getting all the various fits correct etc. I'm sure you will work it out. The clue is in the shaft fits.

[@markpdouglas]

Draw yourself an ellipse (an approximation of a non-round BB cup) and then draw a circle inside it that touches at the narrowest part of the ellipse. Then please explain how the circle only scuffs at certain points when rotated. Perhaps the penny will drop if you look at it long enough. My original comment was meant as a question/helpful feedback but you seem to have gone very defensive and dismissive on it rather quickly!

[@francisbeaumonde8198]

@@Mapdec Mark Douglas has worked it out and so have I. It is a great tool to check alignment. A very good Idea indeed. It is just that the tolerances should be even better than they are now. If the tool gets stuck due to poor alignment of the bike, it should be stuck a full 360° rotation, if the tool is machined correct. Please ask a mathematician if you do not trust Mark Douglas or me. Like Mark Douglas I support your idea. Please note, I don't know Mark Douglas. I would like to make your work to help build better bikes.

[@ianmangham4570]

If it aint broke dont fix it ,a shimano square taper for me always 🙏🤘🇬🇧

[@Mapdec]

Well yeah, except they round out, heavy as hell, and rust easily. They also don’t allow for much width required to stiffen up carbon frames. Octolink on the old DuraAce… was it 7600? That is a gem if you have a metal frame.

[@ianmangham4570]

@@Mapdec Don't eat breakfast

[@ShoelDaniel]

Excellent video. If hambini were to do this video, he would have used all sorts of names,called the bike shit and so on. I love his videos, but sometimes it's not nice to watch with all the name calling and swearing.

[@3TXR]

just get a 24mm crank and a one piece BB and problem solved for good… judging the bike, the customer probably wouldn’t mind the costs…

[@Mapdec]

We discussed this. You are right though.

[@gweflj]

If you’re going to go to the trouble of getting those test fit pieces machined, why not get an abrasion or cutting surface machined into one side and make the other press fit. Then you could press in the one piece male cup/spindle and then rotate the female around the spindle and accurately square both sides without any diy guess work. Then press out the male/spindle cup and you’re done. You would obviously press in the male on the better side of the BB shell as a datum.

[@Mapdec]

Thanks. What you describe is what the park cutting tool should do. It costs a lot and doesn’t allow us to correct alignment with subtle adjustments. Ideally a bike shop would have both tools. Create accurate datum with the reaming tool. Then use the gage to correct the other side.

[@gweflj]

@@Mapdec But you're so close with what you've already made...