MAPPING COMPARISON - HQV 901 NORDEN VS KTM 890 ADVENTURE - ROTTWEILER PERFORMANCE

[@paul.vanhout57]

Very informative beyond just 890 vs 901 but overall understanding of fueling concepts and trends.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

We hope to do more and more of these when we can. Our followers really seem to enjoy them and we like making them so there it is!

[@buaan]

I've a 990A, when on a tour/long ride with my father on his 790R his bike seems to go on forever on the same tank of fuel. Amazing how far the bikes have come.

[@dusdroadadventures7978]

Appreciate all your work. As always a happy customer.

[@cammedramprocharged4927]

Great info

[@LambChopRides]

Great info Chris 👍

[@supergnorf]

Thanks for a very informative video! Interesting to see what you can do with the Norden 901, if it can be improved in any way. I know the value of remapping, previously had a 1200GSA that was completely transformed thanks to changes. Now have a KTM 1290SAS, with a Danish "black box" connected. Latter have made the engine so much smoother and better. Since Norden is on my radar for a possible bike change next year I'll keep an eye on you guys! :)

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Thanks Harold! Honestly most of that bike we already have covered because 99% of our parts convert over from the 890 KTM Adventure but we'll be producing maps for the Norden as well with the Power Commander V just to have those in our offerings. We can work wonders with these bikes in terms of power delivery and smooth running.

[@MotoPumps]

Awesome info! Really interesting. Thanks for all the time you put into this video.

[@jeffc5505]

Haha! 3:03 to 3:30 killed me! Thanks for making this video entertaining as well as informative.

[@jeffc5505]

+"Ting" Ha!

[@RottweilerPerformance]

@@jeffc5505 It's the hidden gems...

[@URBANELITECO]

Good video Dudde, excelent I have a question, When you did the test, how many HP did the 890 R have, I was referring to real HP in the rear wheel.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Pretty much the exact same motor so about the same. These engines actually very quite a bit more than you would expect in terms of power, so if a KTM made a bit more than a Husky one day, it may be the opposite the next with different bikes. They are all over the board so it's hard to look a small differences as one bike better than another.

[@user-ii9dw1mq5w]

Just learning about this subject, and still fairly ignorant, but in 4th gear how do you achieve 8,000rpm @ 20% throttle? Intuitively I would think that rpm is dependent on throttle position, but the graphs show a fixed throttle position throughout (20%, 40%, or 60% etc.) and then plot AFR vs. Rpm and Power vs. Rpm. Also, how much does changing your AFR from a lean stoichiometric 14.7 to a richer preferred power AFR of 13.2 affect gas mileage, and therefore total range of the bike? Thanks in advance and appreciate the education.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

We basically load the dyno at 3000 RPM using an 'RPM Load' (you can load by RPM, speed, brake, etc.) that will hold the bike at that RPM using the drum, this allows us to get the throttle up to whatever percentage we decide we want to look at and then start the run. This releases the drum and allows the bike to start climbing in RPMs until it either just stops building or hits the rev limiter. 20% throttle will actually get that high if you keep it there and will softly bounce off of the rev limiter. Lower throttle ranges just stop and a given RPM. Yes the bike will climb that high but most riders won't do that anyway which is why we don't feel the shift in air fuel ratios matters much there. It was probably just to protect the motor just in case someone does. This is the balance. 13.2 will certainly use more fuel and produce more power. It's a trade-off. 14.7 AFR is regarded as the point where the best power/fuel economy combination can be reached and it's at the cost of lower horsepower. 13.2 is regarded as the starting point target AFR for making the most power when that is the goal. This is why we offer map switches so that the user can run dual maps and have the best of both worlds at the flick of a switch. You can go from stock to fueled for power just like that depending on what you are doing. We also used this in rally racing where in the dunes we needed the most power, and for long sections needed fuel economy.

[@wb3809]

@@RottweilerPerformance really appreciate you taking the time and providing such a detailed response! Especially to a beginner trying to learn about these matters. I was actually wondering if the drum could be controlled, but dismissed it. Interesting to know that it can, giving you cleaner baselines and better runs. I didn't suspect that such low throttle settings (20%) could work it's way up in RPMs, so thanks for sharing that. Yes, the map switch may be the best of both worlds! Love all the work you do putting the information out there, being part of the community, and offering and creating products for these great machines.

[@barkindustry8150]

Very detailed analysis!! I had no idea you could pull out more juice via custom maps and exhaust from a bike. Nice!! Question tho, when you do those custom maps and exhaust mods, do you see significant reduced fuel consumption typically?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Some, but not overly significant. It takes more fuel to make more power, plain and simple, but with Powercommanders you can add a map switch that will allow you to toggle between a performance map and one with no added fuel, just ignition trim or whatever you like so you can get the economy miles when you need them. There are many options so you can have your cake and eat it too. That's what we love about them. Additionally, we can set them up for you for free and also install the maps for free as well when you buy them through us.

[@howlinhog]

I am very interested in your definition of "open loop". I've been a professional tech for over forty years so my beginnings are carbureted everything, meaning I have experienced every iteration of fuel delivery and management there is. This is not a challenge, I'm truly interested in your definition. My definition is the moment when the O2 sensor reaches an active state. A state totally reliant on O2 sensor temperature. A cold engine will be in "open loop" and relatively quickly goes closed loop. If the O2 sensor becomes inactive with a working temp engine (info via coolant temp sensor) a code will be generated because the ECM doesn't like the mismatch of info (hot engine inactive O2). The sooner an O2 sensor becomes active, the sooner the ECM has control of fuel mixture (enter the heated O2 sensor). In my experience, the fact that fuel mixture goes lean at high RPM is not "open loop", it's predetermined mapping, otherwise you would have a lean mixture code.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

"A closed loop control system is a set of mechanical or electronic devices that automatically regulates a process variable to a desired state or set point without human interaction. Closed loop control systems contrast with open loop control systems, which typically require manual input". In laymen's terms, open loop on KTM engines has shown to be almost always where the mixture will start coming out of 14.7 air fuel ratio. Historically anywhere we see this we typically have full control over the fueling without the ECU trying to 'undo' the corrections we have made via piggyback ECU such as a Power Commander V (We produced another video showing this a few years ago). When the stock narrow band O2's are active and will constantly maintain a stoichiometric 14.7 AFR regardless of what we throw at it, this is typically and safely considered 'closed loop', where the ECU has full control of mapping corrections using voltage inputs from the narrow band O2's. Rich being .8 to .9 volts and lean being closer to .3 volts or less. The portions of the map that we can alter without the ECU overriding them would be considered 'open loop'. Typically bikes are only in open loop for a short time when cold because the narrow band O2s have not properly heated up yet, which is why 'wide band' O2s (that can report a much wider range of air fuel ratios) began surfacing on cars in around 1992 on Honda Civic models. They don't use them on motorcycles because they are expensive and motorcycles have a bit more leniency than cars. Narrow band O2s can only report between 14.0 to 15.0:1 which is within the range the bike is required to run at. We use wide band O2s on a dyno which can report almost any air fuel ratio. See this example (below)of closed loop on a 2021 KTM 890 Rally. The deep purple parts are where the stock ECU fought our corrections and allowed us to continue to throw more and more fuel at it while still maintaining 14.7 AFR. You can also clearly see a distinctive line drawn where the stock ECU no longer fought our corrections and allows us to alter open loop to gain the air fuel ratios we desired for more power. Mapping only in open loop is what we consider 'STREET MAPS'. When we build a race bike, we unplug the O2's, effectively blinding the bike in closed loop which allows us to map the entire range of throttle and RPM. We call these 'RACE MAPS' and they come at the cost of an engine light and that's about it. www.dropbox.com/s/qcnheykqxlyvq90/2021-04-29%20%281%29.png?dl=0 In this video, we are finding two things: A) bikes are auto correcting higher and higher into the upper throttle position ranges than before, indicating that closed loop, where you cannot correct the mapping with a piggyback ECU without the stock ECU 'undoing' the corrections (while the O2s are still plugged in), is growing larger and larger as models progress and B) Open loop mapping where the factories do have more leniency to map how they see fit is also getting leaner and leaner.

[@howlinhog]

@@RottweilerPerformance Outstanding reply!! You've given me a lot to consider. I may be sixty but I'm still ready to take in info. Your time spent considering my comment is much appreciated.

[@peterrick3339]

@@RottweilerPerformance Since 2019 BMW 1250 engines have wide-band O2 sensors. There is a third O2 sensor after the Cat to compare what's coming out of the Cat so it can feed this back to the ECU for adjustment as required. They also have knock-sensors to add to the mix.

[@howlinhog]

@@peterrick3339 After Cat is primarily a health check for the catalytic converter and the knock sensor gives info related to adjustments for optimum spark advance without ruining the engine from pre detonation common to low octane fuel.

[@peterrick3339]

@@howlinhog "They also have knock-sensors to add to the mix" may have been a bad terminology on my part, as in 'mix'. I used the word mix in the sense that the knock-sensors feed back to the ECU in the overall engine management, specifically ignition timing. As an aside, both my friends & my 2019 1250GSA suffered detonation often when rolling on the throttle. It seems that when closed loop the fueling is way lean leading to detonation until the knock sensors pick it up and the ECU responds. My engine was particularly bad but i had an intermittent fault with one of the O2 sensors. My friends detonates often as it just runs too lean. We both had spark plug tips burning away under the Iridium tips which indicates the plugs BMW install are too hot. We changed to the next colder plug which has reduced the detonation somewhat and seems to have dealt with the center core burning away. The lhs plug with the faulty O2 sensor on my bike had the center electrode burn away completely & the Iridium tip disappeared. Out the exhaust valve i presume. After this happened (the engine still ran OK surprisingly) but detonation frequency & severity increased and sometimes the knock sensor did not intervene. I am of the opinion this cylinder was now suffering from pre-ignition and there was nothing the knock sensor or the ECU could do to stop it.

[@itsallgood7483]

Hi there ! Do I need to remap My stock 2022 Ktm 890r if I install the arrow mid pipe and slip on exhaust listed on your website?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

No you don't. Is it good to? Absolutely, the bike will run much better with or without the mods with a PCV, but it's not mandatory. It will compensate at stoichiometric 14.7 air fuel ratio just fine.

[@michaelgallagher7414]

I like that rivnut insert for the 02 sensor. Where can I find that?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

It's part of a dynojet kit to easily tap into a header behind a cover plate or something that can hide it and you just plug it with a button head bolt when you are done. What you are looking at is really just a 6m rivet in the header, but the wide band O2 kit is a Dynojet product that has the adaptors and tools.

[@peterrick3339]

I like this sort of technical stuff. Seeing the difference in fueling between Euro 4 & Euro5 and the power results is excellent. Thank you. Would be great to see the same comparison done with a Euro 4 & Euro5 BMW 1250 GS/GSA as i am of the opinion the Euro 4 engines run too lean.

[@emileclitheroe9564]

The 890 and 901 are both euro 5

[@WeAreChad]

Nice hat!

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Boom! Cool someone noticed!

[@guillaumepom1522]

Great video

[@emoservedwithfries]

How would you add a pc6 to your bike if you'd piecemailing it when looking at air-intake & mufflers if I have a decat already, what order is suggest? All 3 before the pc6 or should the pc6 come in before one or 2 of the three?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Kind of doesn't matter. We would suggest the PC6 last but they all work together so well.

[@PrivateUsername]

I just searched for "nord 901" and this video popped up. Subscribing so I can see what you do with the KTM/Husq tuning.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

We will be working on Power Commander maps for that bike this week!

[@kevinlancaster5714]

@@RottweilerPerformance looking forward to it. My 901 is supposed to arrive end of March

[@RottweilerPerformance]

@@kevinlancaster5714 Sweet! We will have loads of stuff for that bike by then for sure. Working on some of it the week of Feb 14 2022.

[@clonSanG]

Have you tuned a Honda nc750 2022???

[@RottweilerPerformance]

We typically focus on Husky and KTM motorcycles. That being said, we do a lot of dyno testing for Motorcycle.com and get all kinds of bikes in here, but have not tuned one of those in particular.

[@bazza8947]

So no issue installing a decat on the Norden without a tune?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Not at all. There are over 10,000 riders that we know of that have decatted with no mapping. We have verified that they fuel just fine. That being said, the target is still 14.7:1 which is safe, but doesn’t exactly make the best power, so while you are safe, there is still a lot left on the table in terms of power if you are not remapping.

[@bazza8947]

@@RottweilerPerformance Thanks and have a great Christmas and New Years!

[@ehiggins7476]

Why the 890 tail light?

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Good catch! That took us a second. We were probably playing around with a tail tidy that would work for that bike. The rear Husky tail light configuration on that bike is unnecessarily complicated and we wanted to see what we could do with what we had and were playing around with it. The stock tail light would have to be purchased and it drove the cost up high enough for us to not make them.

[@peterlosangelos4108]

Could dyno setup be used to measure torque at very low rpm in low gear used in difficult terrain. In the graph I see no data below say 2500rpm.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

You certainly could. Most dyno runs are performed in 4th gear and with 40 lbs in the tires. That's fairly standard practice and why you don't see much data under 2500, because the runs are started at the lowest RPM that the bike isn't 'chugging' at. You could do comparisons at low throttle openings in lower gears for sure, but to lay out the data and show it to someone in graph form it needs to be ascending in some way. Otherwise you just have a bunch of scribbles in the middle of a page. One thing we do when adjusting ignition advance is use the torque strain gauge to measure torque in real time on a gauge, hold the throttle with a device in a steady state and adjust the advance while we keep an eye on a knock sensor. If torque goes up and no knocking is detected, that's a good thing and we just made free horsepower and better mileage. The only caveat to spark advance is having to make sure you have good fuel, so it that's an issue, we recommend a map switch to change to a map with less ignition advance. That part is easy and we can set that up for the customer.

[@justsomedude445]

i wish i could have got a 901 with the upgraded explorer suspension , already ordered the arrow cat delete mid pipe , cannister delete kit , and race tech silencer , intake and power commander for an 890 i was told same same , wish i could just double check that ?

[@KTravelet1]

wait, did you use a rivnut for the O2 bung??

[@RottweilerPerformance]

Yes. Then we screw in a billet adapter to a wide band O2. Completely common and normal and doesn't overheat the wideband.

[@KTravelet1]

@@RottweilerPerformance Thanks for the quick reply. Can you show a video for that process? I think you could sell more if people knew that they could do this at home with out a welder.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

@@KTravelet1 Actually Dynojet sells a kit, but it's really just for dyno tuning. There is a rivet gun with 6mm x 1 threaded rivets, and an adapter kit with two wide band O2's and billet adapters and some screws to plug them when you are done. You just put them in places you can't see like under a heat shield or something like that. What are you trying to accomplish and let's see if we can help.

[@KTravelet1]

@@RottweilerPerformance Me personally, my 1290 good to go thanks to Rottweiler :) I'm just trying to point out that a lot of people are hesitant to go the wide-band/AT route since (at least I was) under the impression that you must take the pipe to a welder to get the bung welded on.

[@RottweilerPerformance]

@@KTravelet1 Ah, I see. Well one thing on the 1290 is that on Arrow headers and I believe Tekmo titanium headers we have them specially made with 18mm bungs (check website or our live chat to make sure) so if you are also getting one of those you should be good to go. If not, these adapters would not be ideal for permanent use. They are a bit bulky and stick out a bit and are really just for testing on a dyno. Many times where the O2's are mounted there isn't much room for extraneous gadgets to adapt to things so most often it's best to be able to screw the wideband O2 directly into the exhaust.

[@kjonasson10]

Why map, has enough power.