Nanometers?? High Resolution Servos for the CNC Machine

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[@bunnythekid]

Why not suspend the CNC machine from the ceiling and use your house as a inverse tuned mass damper

[@TheXSairam]

Don you have to put the house on springs before hand?

[@hyperfluff_folf]

@@TheXSairam nah screw that just do it the russian way, will work somehow

[@hyperhektor7733]

you ever heard of infrasound? it can anoy you or others to death and even destroy structures. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound The knife makers with powerhammers explains the problem with heavy machinery , watch a minute or to this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2KtmYyJppqVo80#t=9m09s

[@pentachronic]

Float it on a centrifuge of liquid!!

[@lookieeight1006]

Hit it with a hammer at just the right moment so the vibrations cancel out

[@reps]

Whoops. Looks like we accidentally DDOSed their website ... For now here's some more info on the servos: www.motioncontrolproducts.com/motoranddrivesystem/estunservosystem.php?cat=11

[@DUIofPhysics]

Hi Everyone, Thank you for the overwhelming interest in Motion Control Product's CNC kits. Please send us an email over at [e-mail] if you have any questions about our kits. I'm truly sorry about our website coming down, and we will do our best to resolve it in the coming days. We will be releasing our new website with updated and new information early this Week! - Tom, Motion Control Products Ltd. ' - Applications Team.

[@KaspersMC]

sorry motioncontrolproducts.com for DDOS you ;)

[@Made2hack]

Yes, "accidentally" DDOSed their website. Reps hacking confirmed!

[@EngineeringVignettes]

You slash-dotted your sponser?

[@MichaelMantion]

I know nothing about CNC but everything is 90 degrees. Maybe some diagonal braces would stiffen things up and make it less shaky

[@oben692]

Fill the frame with sand to dampen down the vibrations, give it a try before drilling them holes

[@Norcomos]

Some Bars diagonally in the upper frame would also help stiff the frame for that Movement. They dont habe to be thick due to the fact, that they only will be stressed in tension/compression

[@Antiath]

@@Norcomos Right, Martin from the Wintergatan channel did exactly that to deal with vibrations on his monster marble machine. It worked like a charm. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZquulYOgmZaIm7s

[@Xamy-]

Give this a try!

[@GLITCH_-.-]

@fassenkugel isn't it going to rust, maybe?

[@AndersJackson]

@@GLITCH_-.- not if you let the moister out somewhere. That is used by many machinists when they want to make their machines stable. I guess you can have some oil on top of the concrete (betong) after it has burned together properly. And yes, if you want to have it hard, you have to put water on the concrete while it burns together. Sand do also collect moister. So I would guess that adding some oil afterwards will help. But that is my guess. Search for Stefan Gotteswinter for a look on his machines and how he uses sand to make his machines more stable. (Try channel NYC CNC to find him)

[@aserta]

This is probably the same grade (if not the same stuff) that comes on various medical (and other precision) type equipment. Once or twice a year i'll find an unit discarded at the scrap recycler. I found sooo many little servos and various motors this way. :) Edit: IF your application suits it, you should totally get those vibration mounts (the blue plate kind, not the green plate, stiffer rubber), it makes a humongous difference in noise.

[@keantoken6433]

Do you mean Sorbothane?

[@dimitar4y]

i'd kill to know a place like that nearby where i can get such l00t

[@lUnderdogl]

@@dimitar4y yo carefull sometimes radioactive metarials also goes to dump

[@BadFuse]

Stepper motor left the chat.

[@Cass_Rose]

step motor ❌ HIGH RESOLUTION SERVOS FOR THE CNC MACHINE✔️

[@Paul-gz5dp]

The coating on the PCB is nice, as it helps keep the boards from being dirt magnets and becoming shorted from conductive dirt. A real game killer on many machines that I work on.

[@drew6017]

I laughed so hard at the servo motor cloud machine learning bit.

[@Nocholas]

"A Message from our sponsor: 'Don't!' "

[@TheArtificiallyIntelligent]

I don't know much of what you said but I'm still listening! Wish I had a neighbor like you to hang out with and learn from.

[@xaytana]

Really hoping we can get high resolution servos within hobby market pricing in the near future. For now I think the only cost effective option is to drive each axis of a hobby cnc with a very large ratio between gears or pulleys.

[@TechTroppy]

"Hello anyone still listening?" You killed me 🤣

[@BrotherCreamy]

Hi Marco, FYI modern industrial servos run up to 23-bit (8388608 tick) encoders as standard. Not for higher positioning accuracy but for better velocity resolution. It improves control stiffness (which is important for CNC).

[@TomMakeHere]

Wow that is crazy in depth CNC! Natural frequency avoidance of the frame etc Cool stuff

[@finnsuchara1992]

Plz do some EDM (machining) with this CNC when you are done, it looks so perfect with these steppers, liniar rails, and solid construction.

[@mr.sandman4782]

Damn Marco is lucky cause that kit is almost $1900. I really hope the CNC machine comes out really nice. Can't wait.

[@glennedward2201]

You can get servos like that for less on AliExpress. Usually $250 to $300 each with drive and they’re awesome. The JMC integrated servos are around $160 and vector driven ac powered by dc supply (DC/AC).

[@cfeigel]

Well, this IS an interesting development! When this project is complete, perhaps you can use it to build a machine with even higher precision!

[@GLITCH_-.-]

Then keep going and going until you are moving single atoms.

[@EngineeringVignettes]

Neat. I was Using German Heidenhain angle encoders back in the late 90's for a 6-DOF robot. I think they were 21 bit incremental encoding. Fun with toys. Your CNC is coming along nicely. Cheers,

[@arendmookhoek4314]

Ohan i love thede videos so much, eigenfrequency was great.

[@Sazoji]

I loved that usb connection sound with the controller

[@SeishukuS12]

The internals of that look similar to the Mitsubishi servo controllers on our WaterJet at work, those run about $1500USD for *just* the controller. They're pretty nice though, they have really cool fiber optic interconnects.

[@chrisriley1450]

I had a friend who used to work for a company that made cutting edge medical diagnostic equipment. He showed me the most expensive thing in the prototyping lab. 1 micron accurate steppers. Yes, they did check my pockets when I left ;)

[@gusbisbal9803]

So I have a mild steel RHS Stand with the 5th leg like yours. It shakes as well but bolting it to the ground will not remove that. It has to do with the rigidity of the structure. Like a flower waving in the wind. Rooting it to the ground harder will not stop it from waving. I am going to add cross members at a diagonal to stop the rectangles deforming into parallelograms... if you know what I mean.

[@Garganzuul]

We have a 3-revolver CNC lathe with Y-axis on each revolver at work. It weights 11 tons and it also shakes during rapids. Seems most vibration dampening materials like cast iron need the force to be rather high for the damping to come into effect, so it would make sense if the long-term, persistent frequencies are dampened in software.

[@BZT-1]

Modbus trough profile mode, can send a chunk of position targets to all the motors at once, removes the heavy load of hard real-time on the controller. a "soft-real-time" on the pc controller could be enough. Plus, through modbus feedback you can actually get the "lag" of the servo system in real time and adjust accordingly. I'd strongly advise against pulse/step configuration mainly because of the servo position lag feedback.

[@glennedward2201]

I used 180w vector driven servos by JMC and they are more than adequate on a 6x20x40 router. They have enough torque to push my body away. Most steppers I can hold a table or gantry and get them to miss. I also have those same servos you have in larger sizes for some of my bigger machines and they’re really nice. 600w will move a bench mill around. However 750 watt or higher will shake the machine side to side.😬

[@CozzyKnowsBest]

Your CNC is looking so awesome now it's insane. Your carpet is going to get sooo fucked up with hot chips that escape though :)

[@ChaotikmindSrc]

If you need powerful & precise motors, you should look into linear motors, i work on wafer inspection machines, that are nanometer précise , able to go at 1m/s, and also pack some punch (the motors have 175 newtons of force if i remember right)

[@ChaotikmindSrc]

@Justin Mosimann I worked on piezo linear actuators too, but no i was not talking about that. Just plain old 3 phases linear motors, the 3 phases acts as the screw against a linear rails of neodynium magnets

[@isettech]

There are many DIY people who would want more information on the technical side. The very high resolution servos go far beyond the resolution of optical or hall sensors and move into the realm most CNC people have never heard about, but in semiconductor manufacture, this is the established standard. Resolvers. A resolver is a rotary transformer in a brushles configuration. It is an analog device. The rotary transformer coil is energized with about 10KHZ sine wave. The phase and amplitude of the two stationary secondaries is proportional in phase and amplitude to the shaft position. A device called a resolver encoder is used to produce an absolute value for the shaft position. Optical encoders tend to end at about 8 to 10 bits max for resolutions of 512 to 2048 counts per revolution. Typical resolver encoders start at 10 bits and to to 16 bits resolution. This is not an incremental shaft encoder that can lose counts. It is an absolute position encoder. Even after power off, it requires no home or index pulse to locate itself. For further reading, a typical data sheet for a resolver device is the Analog Devices AD2S1210 10 to 16 bit resolver. Data is serial data making interface to your favorite Pi or Nano relatively simple. Very few support components are required to enable this. A stereo op amp type device will be needed to amplify and drive the resolver transformer. An audio amp works fine as 10KHZ low distortion is pretty much the requirement to provide ~10 volts drive. Disclaimer. I work as an engineering tech in a shop that repairs these systems. Most failures are related to electrolytic caps and motor bearings. Other than that the systems are pretty bullet proof in operation. PID control in the position motor amp drive loop is a requirement and that is a big part of what the video is about. The Altera chip is for the PID portion of the control. The 20 bit encoder in the video is most likely a resolver and decoder package as that many bits in an absolute optical encoder is pretty unlikely.

[@runforitman]

Looking at the price $2,500AUD actually seems extremely reasonable for 3 of them

[@tophatv2902]

Are these better than clear path in terms of torque for the same size?

[@rudevectors8018]

Roman Voloshyn I know very little about the finer details but the clear path servo motors suffer the same downside as steppers. I.e their torque drops off precipitously as rpm increase. These ones have almost the same power curve as dmm servo motors but they come with 16bit absolute encoders.

[@tophatv2902]

@@rudevectors8018 So overall with the ones do you think are better?

[@rudevectors8018]

Roman Voloshyn I’m at the same stage of decision/indecision but based purely on absolute vs incremental encoder, seems absolute is an advantage. The dmm is a named brand, they do all their own products, rather than repackaged/resold, a bonus for future support. The prices are similar but it’s a US company, so factor in delivery/import duty. If you haven’t already checked, CNCzone.com and a poster called mactec54, recommends them, especially over clearpath.

[@tophatv2902]

@@rudevectors8018 thank for your information : )

[@Doyle69]

The knowledge blows my mind watching this.. then I remeber.. people also had to design this from scratch.. double mind blown

[@Tristoo]

"will break bones easily" proceeds to dance on it

[@nyceyes]

"...Where it connects to The Internet Of Servos cloud, where it uses machine learning..." 🤣 That was funny.

[@microdesigns2000]

High resolutions used for servo encoders is not really about accurate stopping positions. High resolutions are useful for highly accurate PID calculations. 2 million count encoders are pretty normal these days, created by resolvers with a digitizer and the use of a protocol like SSI or BISS. I've never seen servos work so well until I tried models with these high resolution encoders.

[@NeoIsrafil]

Wow... so that's why servos are so amazing... theyll spring if they stick.holy MOLY it can detect the vibration and compensate? That's RIDICULOUS! I LOVE IT!!! I NEED a set for my cnc!!!

[@John_Smith__]

Marco that is a very very good project you assembled! I am officially stoked about it :) ..and jealous ... :) And the CNC mechanical assembly you showed up in detail in the last video is also Uber Great :)

[@BZT-1]

The modBus interface is intended to daisy chain against all three servo controllers. In most configuration, specially with profile motion control mode, servos can communicate with each other to efficiently provide a feedback loop. If the x axis is having a hard time cutting and is somewhat lagging behind. the y axis knows about it and can wait for x to catch up. Something that is impossible with step-direction controls.

[@NNNILabs]

I'm dead and in heaven, where there's a Marco Reps video every day.

[@Audio_Simon]

The machine is stiff but not damped. My steel tube frame is resonant too. If you want to talk about damping methods you have my email! Now notch filters on the driver is very clever! It's unfortunately not a true minimum phase system as the amplitude at the cutter head will change dependant on position, but it's certainly a very useful feature. Any idea if this can or will be possible with any other drivers for existing steppers? Actually I wonder... DIY musings... what frequency range goes to the steppers usually?

[@papalevies]

How do you dampen a steel frame? Rubber at the joints?

[@Audio_Simon]

@@papalevies Steel tube frame can be filled to add damping. Sand is an option and not too difficult to remove later to reduce weight, but it's not the best damper at low frequencies. In my gantry I added a second steel tube down the middle that was wrapped with butyl rubber and then filled the gap with epoxy. That makes a constrained damping layer inside. For the main frame I intend to fill with a concrete latex mixture. There is research on methods for damping concrete (for bridges, suspended floors etc) and one of the best is fumed silica with concrete, but it's expensive for Joe public. Also good is latex admixture or butyl rubber admixture sold as Bytul SBR which can be mixed with concrete to add damping properties.

[@doneyandassociates]

There seems to be a great deal of difference between the product promises on the sales side and delivery on the store side. It might be the place to look if you wanted a kit of common components but all of the exciting products I tried to buy were not available (or even listed).

[@raph151515]

Great job, I can't wait to check out the performance of your machine. you can add diagonal support to the frame with thick triangular plates in the corners, it won't flex as far. Mass is useless if it's not aligned with the plan of the mechanical stress. Prefer to add the supports in the bottom : lower mass position : closer to the fixed part of the machine, less jiggly. You don't need heavy tubes in the top part of the frame, it probably adds to the jigglyness, especially without diagonal support. I'm sure you won't measure ton of flex in the bottom part of the machine.

[@fe6646]

In one of your videos you quickly filmed over a 2 micron drill press. Make a video of that drill bench press. Very cool.

[@twbrkfd1733]

Just curious; these have been on the market for ten years, Is there something new here? Closed loop stepper motors seem to fill the bill on CNC routers just fine. They only need a higher RPM when slewing.

[@henmich]

Those Junair compressors are so nice... not high cfm, but the quietest compressor I have ever used... pretty expensive stuff.

[@vasimvaleev5545]

With that resolution should be possible to build laser engraver for printing transmission holograms. Just need a way to focus laser in 1/1000mm dot.

[@mareknetzel]

Very very useful! Cheers from Poland!

[@adisharr]

As far as servo drives go, these are very nice for the cost. The feature set is fairly good too. Adaptive auto tuning has been around for years. Everyone also has high resolution encoder options but many times resolvers are used as they tend to handle noisy environments better. All that aside, that's the nicest CNC drive package you'll find anyone using on KZbin as mentioned :)

[@machine2747]

I see why you chose those servos... Nice! Did you have that t-slot table custom made? Great video!

[@TheKillerjohny]

Two videos?? In like one week? sweet

[@Gobhoblin126]

Filling the frame with sand might help with the oscillations.

[@akkudakkupl]

That 3 phase inverter IC looks like STPOWER SLLIMM modules, very cheap modules if you are into power electronics (15 euro for a 3 phase inverter capable of 20A, drivers and protection integrated).

[@tillman5788]

hey Marco ich habe ein paar Siemens Servos (1FK7042-2Af71-1RH0-Z) wenn du so was mal testen möchtest sag bescheid ;)

[@arturk4860]

Fahrad fahren

[@ewildgoose]

I think just some sides on your enclosure will substantially increase its stiffness?

[@FesixGermany]

Nice motors. Mandelbrot zoom on a CNC, yes!

[@bobmcbob4399]

Actually, at 8:46 - that is a Koch Snowflake

[@alexionescu4017]

Hello Marco! I am a very curious person and i'll be very happy if you could find explanation about how it's made this incredibile resolution encoder NIKON or if you can open one and explain in a video how it function. Also I am curious about servo motor how can move with such a precision I mean what kind of currents can move the motor and most important HOW IT REMAIN HARD STILL WITHOUT ANY MOVEMENT TO RIGHT OR LEFT? The same question I have about voice coil în HDD. How it remain STILL With such a precision? What kind of currents makes this precision when standing still în a very precise Point? Thank you very much. Good luck!

[@qt1qg]

Hi! Do you know how is the case type of that tripple H-bridge IC called? I've seen something similar inside Bosch cordless drill(though it probably is somewhat smaller). Looks really fancy

[@smoothntallGWM]

At 4:30 into the video that's a very nice digital 10Kg load cell circuit. Do you already have a video about building that ? (I searched your videos, but didn't find it).

[@MCsCreations]

Wow, man... That's fantastic! 😮 And what some beautiful servos!!!

[@crisp4085]

When you bolt it down put springs under load between the foot and the bed well between the thing touching the floor and the structure above it this is will dampen the shaking when its properly bolted to the ground remember to level it though

[@tanmaywho]

Am I mistaken or this is real. Two vid in Two days days can't get better. Thanks.

[@kendalllladnek9779]

I really like your 'internet of servos' idea...!

[@RambozoClown]

Have you considered filling your steel tubing with concrete or damping epoxy?

[@ChrisCanMakeStuff]

Whoops we killed the Motion Control Products server :P

[@DUIofPhysics]

We're Back! (Motion Control Products, Apps Engineer here!)

[@0rez]

I like the shiny blinky lights

[@GGG965]

Dear Marco! I love your videos. They are awsome! I have a little question about stepper servo motors...if they don't lose steps as a consequence of their encoder, why would the microsteps setting make a big difference? For example if 1,600 microsteps give the same accuracy as 20,000 why should we use it? Is it only to allow smaller increment movement? Thank you!

[@lUnderdogl]

I think for finer pid controls

[@jonny393]

Reps! It's Karfreitag!! you should be TRAUERN, it's TANZVERBOT, not video uploading time!

[@urugulu1656]

never again mention tanzverbot that idiot on the channel... :-) actually seing him dance on the cnc makes it even nore hillarious

[@g00st62]

@@urugulu1656 wait, we are talking about the German law that forbids any kind of public event on friday before easter, also known as "Tanzverbot" right? Ore did I just not get the joke?

[@urugulu1656]

well i did understand that very well. anyway i thought that this little ?seitenhieb? would be as much funny as its (?in?)appropriate...

[@CozzyKnowsBest]

@@g00st62 that literally translates as "dance forbidden". Hilarious.

[@g00st62]

@@urugulu1656 ok dann ist ja alles gut :) und was tanzverbot hat im Fernsehen getanzt??

[@direwolf4849]

Not bad Servo motors, but the caps blow frequently on the drives, I work with machinery that have Estun motion control equipment. On a 4 axis mill I tend to replace a Servo Drive per year.

[@fluxing5109]

I have not even seen the video yet, but already given it a like just for the thumbnail.

[@peepopalaber]

Yes Marco, i am still listening.

[@matthewjackson9615]

These videos are a welcomed relief from the ones where folks demonstrate how to use self-adjusting pliers. I'll take servo technology any day over that.

[@jukkapekkaylitalo]

Altera is known from their FBGA chips so i think it might be some low end FBGA chip. Usually FBGA's are expensive, but i thing low end ones might be not so expensive.

[@capnthepeafarmer]

You can also fill the structure with concrete for damping.

[@leonalexander26]

Wow! Two Videos in one Week! Greetings from Germany!

[@miniman3112]

Masterful pun in the thumbnail.

[@artispeedy]

Their software looks fantastic.

[@muhammadharis8313]

How to read pulse in one revolotion if i need 1 micron traveling and how to calculate plz reply me thanks for making best video

[@ftmilton]

Nice. Where did you get the awesome T-slot bed?

[@TAWithiam]

you need some diagonals on that frame, should make it way sturdier. Also fill the tubes with sand if it's not a big problem with your design.

[@jonathanvoshell7914]

Note that they don't list the encoder specifications. Need to know how precise the rotational motion is. Is it π / 180.0 or π / 1,800.0 or π /18,000.0 for each step.

[@VEC7ORlt]

1.4kgbp for 3 drives, motors, cables and shit, this is VERY good pricing. Some time ago tried looking for some closed loop stepper drives that are some kind of name brand and don't cost arm and a leg - no luck whatsoever

[@folk.]

5:33 Absolutely. CNC should be Linux native by nature.

[@dadjake]

Love the thumbnail :'D

[@sprinkhole58]

Q: What was your first print on this huge thing? A: A nanometer scale Koch snowflake fractal. OKAY ...you win.

[@SidneyCritic]

Is it shaking because it's on carpet, or because the frame has no diagonal bracing, ie how good is it bolted together. I would be screwing the center leg off the ground, because if it is the highest leg the whole thing would rock on the center leg.

[@MicrotechSAT]

I love your vídeos man, keep it up👍👍👍👍

[@jiritichy6855]

Aren't the ball screws having bigger error than that? How do you eliminate backlash in worn out ball screw?

[@alanherrera5421]

Vibration calculations in their best application...

[@ultraderek]

Is that encoder just an incremental encoder or could it be switched to absolute encoder. I would go with an absolute encoder because reasons.

[@platin2148]

Hmm i prefer personally leadshine. But might try these too.

[@MVHiltunen]

You probably figured this out already, but your steel construction has no diagonal supports, and that makes it significantly more prone to wobble. Try bolting opposing corners of the frame together.

[@shanto95]

8:36 A video on online auto tune PID maybe ? Or any links?

[@ShopperPlug]

2:06 - Whoa has a Nikon Sensor... How much did you 3 servo kit costs?

[@tristunalekzander5608]

Just a noob question: why not just use normal servos but have them on a gear with a belt? You can make it as sensitive as you want.

[@roam3r690]

That was a great, relevant sponsor! Keep up the good work!

[@apaskiewicz]

Oh I heard the USB sound when you plugged in the device that windows makes, I thought you said you were running linux? Very confused.

[@Noney8078]

Is it just me or their online shop contains only a fraction of what I see in their main page? Also - I tried to find the products listed in the video in the store and couldnt find it. Looking for a decent priced servo/driver combo (that can fit on a nema17 bracket).

[@worldburger]

@marco what is the air device on the ground @4:15? The two finned things on top are curious...

[@Conservator.]

Nice touch to have passively cooled drivers. So you won’t hear any annoying fan noise when you run the CNC! 🤣

[@John_Smith__]

Marco again a great video, I'm officially Jealous of all those Great products and the former video about the mechanical part of the build is also very very good! Again congrats ... I also noticed that on your last video's we no longer see the TS100 subliminal images :) and they've been replaced by thing's like PCB ruler, Jinhu solder (?!?! aliexp cheapo) and the 852D hot air gun on the back ... that does not fit with the overall great quality of your projects :) .. just sayin' :) a suggestion ... instead of blocking the image of the Pace solder station, block the 852D :)

[@a1970gto]

Great video and information, but seriously, who opens a box like that?!

[@breedj1]

I like servos, they are better than steppers for high dynamic systems (highs speed and high torque). Steppers have higher holding torque. For a cnc machine you can use one or the other, its is not a high dynamics system, it is a relatively slow but accurate system. The professional servo's from Beckhoff I use at work have a resolution of 24 bit, which is a few bits more than the one in this video ;-). Be aware that resolvers in servos can be single-turn or multi-turn. The multi-turn normally have to be referenced (homed) once and also know their position when you rotate the axis when powered off because of that. Unless you turn then more the 4096 times (for i.e. a Beckhoff AMP8041). The single-turn servos need to be referenced every time you power up the drive. The downside of the multi-turn servos is that the resolution is less than the single-turn equivalent. A 24 bit resolution for a single-turn means 16777216 pulses per turn, but for a multi-turn with absolute position within for instance 4096 revolutions the resolution of one turn will be 16777216/4096=4096 which is significantly less. But since servos are meant to be used with a reductor the resolution increases again. Do not buy a servo only on their power and torque specifications only, otherwise the servo can start to oscillate or other problems might occur. The inertia ratio (lambda) between the servo an the load is very important for servo systems. In machine tools like a CNC machine it should be between 1 and 3. For high accuracy systems it should be less then 1, the motion will be slow. For high dynamics systems the ratio should be around 5. If you use a direct coupling between the servo and the load it should be greater than 10. Use tools like Wittenstein Symex of Beckhoff Motion designer to simulate your system. Servo systems tend to be more expensive compared to steppers, but when you want good quality steppers (not the Chinese rubbish) and need with a resolver because you do not want to miss steps and those steppers need to be NEMA34 or bigger than a servo system might be a cheaper and better alternative.