Live2d Artists Won't Tell You This (so I will)

[@MariYumeCh]

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[@pikepersons5055]

So I have bought several vtuber models in the past and the best thing that I can recommend is make it as easy for the person as possible. I will usually have a character already drawn out and hire someone to make the parts and some one else to do the rigging. It's a lot of work to do all of that in one go so artist are usually pretty thankful when some of the work has already been done for them. Also make your character fairly simple if you can you don't have to get rid of everything but pick a few features to make your character stand out. Doing this makes people more likely to work on your model and do it on time and can even be more affordable. Having a ton of stuff can be fine but it gets overwhelming for the artist when they have tons of work to do with clients who pay more.

[@TheSensationalMr.Science]

there is a tool that is in early stages called inochi2d that does what live2d in a similar fashion and is open source so as to not have too many issues with sudden policy changes of companies. though it will take some time to potentially get used to and some minor programming knowledge to extend the project for personal use due to its early access-esque nature. just wanted to show off a project that could be quite good for the v-tubing community. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!

[@artydoll]

As an artist, I like to make it a point not to spend the money received until I have delivered the commission. This brings me peace of mind while working on a commission.

[@skye5818]

TBH, paying half or something at the start ensures the customer doesn’t scam u 😭 art commissions is like a group project, both client and artist. Clients had to voice their opinions so the artist can change things that disappoint them.

[@pocahontasseguinart7099]

@@skye5818 as a dissabled self tought artist that's born with microcephaly that is struggling and im born in the year 1995 January 18th ahs I've been painting Sence a imfsnt and I never do stupid commissions for my original art. Reasons why even my moms friend Sence her high school life that's a famouse artist that goes to Disney doing star wars paintings ans even he say don't do commissions. I'm still struggling to get noticed and the 2 last times I did art commesions it went down hill because costumers be ungresful and don't want to understand that you can't sat you hate it, you can't say change it. I'm am expresionisim artist I do what I want to express and how I draw and paint and how I feel and see. Then people don't pay and waste your time when they judge how you do art and that's why I do my do dumb commissions. So hyper online nor worrkimg well but I still want to make my own vtube design like on vroid model and all but I need better computer and I pad. I have ko-fi to get help so I can do this. I'm not a beginner artist I've been doing a long time I just never tried vtube vroid model and I need obs. The computer I have is not compatable. If I get better notice and I get to make my model I will diffently make some to sell but I won't make it $50- up no way. I'm a better artist and indomt like doing they to people. Not everyone can't afford things. 1:54

[@pocahontasseguinart7099]

as a dissabled self tought artist that's born with microcephaly that is struggling and im born in the year 1995 January 18th ahs I've been painting Sence a imfsnt and I never do stupid commissions for my original art. Reasons why even my moms friend Sence her high school life that's a famouse artist that goes to Disney doing star wars paintings ans even he say don't do commissions. I'm still struggling to get noticed and the 2 last times I did art commesions it went down hill because costumers be ungresful and don't want to understand that you can't sat you hate it, you can't say change it. I'm am expresionisim artist I do what I want to express and how I draw and paint and how I feel and see. Then people don't pay and waste your time when they judge how you do art and that's why I do my do dumb commissions. So hyper online nor worrkimg well but I still want to make my own vtube design like on vroid model and all but I need better computer and I pad. I have ko-fi to get help so I can do this. I'm not a beginner artist I've been doing a long time I just never tried vtube vroid model and I need obs. The computer I have is not compatable. If I get better notice and I get to make my model I will diffently make some to sell but I won't make it $50- up no way. I'm a better artist and indomt like doing they to people. Not everyone can't afford things. 1:54

[@gateauauciel]

back when i did commissions i would do half up front + half after it’s finished, but i wouldn’t transfer the money out of paypal until it was finished U_U id feel too guilty otherwise

[@drewbabe]

that's smart, never count your chickens before they hatch. even if you get paid up front you should be careful because you might end up burning out in the middle of a commission and have to issue a refund because otherwise you'll get called a scammer for not fully delivering. when working as a contractor (and really, getting commissioned for a model or art in general is basically just under-the-table contractor work), you always need to make sure you only consider yourself paid once the contract is complete

[@Scalvenger]

A friend of mine won a L2D rigging contest and asked me to do the L2D art for it. I didn’t want to overcharge and I knew she was on a tight budget, so I said I’d do the art for the lowest rate I could find, which was $400 at the time. That was in OCTOBER 2023. I worked almost every day on that piece and gave her many, MANY review periods to ensure the final piece was perfect. I coordinated with the client AND rigger to make sure both of them were getting what they needed/wanted. It is currently almost MAY. I have sunk over 120 hours into the piece. Even IF the client pays me the agreed $400, that boils down to less than $4/hr for the art. People see the big ticket price but not the amount of work involved. L2D art is insanely hard and I would NOT recommend it to people just starting out or with little experience.

[@wednes3day]

Might be putting in more time than the lowest rate can afford you? Kinda the thing of "okay, it's X amount of dollars, at Y hourly rate range, I have Z hours to spend on this (+ friend discount if you want)"? Idk if it's just a one-off project for you or something you do more often, but take care of yourself

[@Tahllia]

Ah, well that makes sense why someone working out of Cambodia (random country) can charge what they do because $4/hr for them is a LOT more money

[@YayaFeiLong]

If it's at all possible you might want to try renegotiating the price. Only $400 for 120+ hours of work is frankly absurd

[@Scalvenger]

I appreciate the advice and suggestions. To clarify, I live in a more expensive part of the US, so $4/hr is in fact quite a bad rate. This was a one-off project and art is not my main or even secondary source of income. I took this as a learning experience and didn’t let it ruin my love for art or the community. Keep doing what you love friends. :)

[@ClokworkGremlin]

Work for friends isn't the same as work for other people, so I think it's OK to under-charge given it's what you promised, giving free stuff to your friends is part of being friends. I just know that when it comes to Live2D models, I still consider $1,000 "cheap" and $5,000 "average." I think Nux and Kson both have signed checks in excess of $10,000 for a single model.

[@donyori]

No, no, I'm an artist and I believe it's incredibly scummy not to refund you. If they aren't going to give you what you paid for, then you paid for disappointment, and that's a scam. I'm really sorry that keeps happening to you.

[@pikachufan25]

its cause Refunding also Cost Money to the Artist... if they use PayPal at least. There are Workarounds and Cheeky Alternatives to "Pay-Back" your Client for not Finishing the work. --- i agree tho Paying Full for not a Finish Piece is Scammy. the Artist Should have taken 25% of the money... (Cause the Artist did At least draw something "Hopefully" XD). Headaches...

[@RothAnim]

​@@solarydays Absolutely. IMO, art schools need to have mandatory business classes outlining the basics of freelancing, commissioning, Intellectual property law and labor law. (Hell, given how central capitalism is to living in most of the world, it should probably be taught in High School Social Studies, rather than paywalled behind post secondary education.) Instead we teach people how to make art, but not how to make a living based on art. While I'm 100% sympathetic to the mental health struggles of freelancing artists falling behind on commissions, contracts exist to defend both parties, and proper scheduling and pricing can help reduce the chances of burnout or budgeting disasters that result in massive backlogs.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

​@pikachufan25 Fuck that. The artist is 100% in the wrong and the commissioner wasn't buying sketches, they were buying a finished product both parties agreed upon. No one should give a shit about the cost or trouble to the artist when the artist took and spent the money and didn't deliver the finished product.

[@Pandoholic]

@@pikachufan25 Bud if you were contracted to build an entire house, but only completed the framework, you would not get your payment because you "gave them something". You deliver on what the customer asked or you refund them fully. That is business.

[@DreamyAileen]

@@RothAnim Art schools don't train students to become freelance workers, they just teach them to make art. So the burden of teaching students business stuff shouldn't fall on art schools. You're right that it should be taught in high school though

[@aque9608]

This is why I found ONE artist with a regular SCHEDULE that STICKS to it and I have not commissioned from anyone else. When you order, she tells you on what specific day she will get back to you with a sketch, and that within 2-3 days of that she'll get you flats and then once that's confirmed by you, the finished shaded picture. And she STICKS to this!! It's amazing. 10/10 work ethic. I hate when artists take on commissions because they want/need the money, but they don't have the time/headspace to actually do them.

[@Gaz964]

Hello! I am interested in starting VTubing and am willing to pay a premium for the type of work you described. Are you comfortable sharing this Creators Information? If not I totally understand, thank you!

[@aque9608]

@@Gaz964 I mean "not sure the style will fit" because the artist doesn't do live2d Comms, just normal drawings, and the style is more American comics rather than cutesy anime. When I wrote the comment I had general commissions in mind, not just for Vtubing and models.

[@shesanotaku]

@@aque9608 As a rule of thumb, I always promote an artist that does great work on a proper schedule. You dont know what everyones style is... A lot of 'Riggers' arent artists & us little people need to commission for the art as well. I have been looking for a comic artist for a PNGtuber (Regular art that can have only the eyes and mouth animated). If you still arent comfortable sharing the info that's okay but know that, I am highly interested in contacting them!

[@cosmic_seabunny]

Now THATS a professional. I seriously didn’t have any idea that the art community regularly has people who get as much time as they want to finish an art piece. That’s just..Well it’s definitely not fair and frankly it’s very childish. This is one of the reasons online artists are regularly frowned upon. Heck, as an artist myself I sometimes find myself rolling my eyes when others talk about “Doing art commissions” because it’s very rare you find anyone with actual professionalism in that line of work, especially in today’s society. It’s really awesome that you found someone with a good a head on their shoulders. Gotta say, I’m kinda jealous. 😅

[@VardenHeste]

Ive been scammed 3 times trying to get a model. First time was my fault, I have never commissioned before so didn't know how to discern artists. The next couple times they stopped giving updates a year ago, I have written those off at this point. I am still looking for an actual artist.

[@gorirad1738]

Hope you can find your style of artist and get your model, I can offer art but I mostly do girls. If you are okay with being first male model then i would want to work with you :)

[@VardenHeste]

@@gorirad1738 Thank you for the offer, your art is very skillfully done and affordable, but it may not be the style I'm looking for.

[@Sim_Pole]

try Nizima, they are dedicated to Live2D models (one pre-made and one commissioned) and I got both of my models from there with no issues. I wish you the best of luck

[@summer-oa9521]

I also make models ! There’s loads of small artists out there that can help you out . Paying 50 percent or so up front is a way to protect both the artist and the customer so make sure to go with artists who set this in place !

[@NataliaAkashiya]

I went on fiverr for my model and those are pretty legit artists. Haven't been scammed yet.

[@SuperNomnomcat]

from an artist perspective, a lot of it has to do with this economy. My landlord raised my rent by $300 I can't afford daycare for my son because it's the same price as rent and food is inflated out of the ass. I can't even remember the last time I spent money on myself.. That is to say sometimes I feel like I have to take on more and more commissions just to get by and I make more money from art than if I was working at a store or restaurant. I always keep my clients updated and I try my best to not delay commissions if I can, I should also mention that I do mostly emote commissions so if I need to delay I'm still able to deliver emotes one by one and I haven't had an issue with clients being upset about it.

[@lloyd011721]

300? what the fuck? and i thought my rent going up by 80 was alot

[@drewbabe]

@@lloyd011721 it depends on your local laws, where I live they can only raise it by up to 2% year over year, but that's only while you're renewing your lease. If you ever sign a new lease they can increase it more. And so landlords often find ways to get tenants to move out after a while, so they can make the next guy pay hundreds more for the same exact unit. OP might live in a place with basically no rent control laws at all, so the landlord could do whatever they want as long as it isn't so much that it'll make OP pack up and find a cheaper place to rent that's better.

[@chickenmadness1732]

Get a real job then.

[@Ausdrake]

@@chickenmadness1732 They just said they make more than if they were working in a store or restaurant you jackass

[@alestorprime7962]

@@chickenmadness1732 did you not read his comment? He literally said he makes more via art

[@TeaTheKhajiit]

I think things will settle eventually, but right now we have two extremes: way-too-cheap models from people just trying to attract any clients and way-too-complicated on the other extreme end of the spectrum. Which while it makes for a great portfolio piece, it's likely still very under priced for the amount of work that it put in.. It's still such a new industry, and hopefully a happy and healthier medium can be found.

[@TheMelnTeam]

I expect the tools for making the models will improve too. Mix of ai assist, faster ability for artist to tweak, and have the tweaks be iterated should help bring the sheer volume of hours down.

[@trawll8659]

The lack of a basic universal model for artists to expand upon also adds onto the amount of time required to make them, also the necessity of being totally original and not looking like a copycat makes it harder to even come up with designs these days. Another solution could just be to make payments in chunks based on what the artist delivers at an agreed upon time interval. Every step of the model gets a percentage of the total price instead of full payment up front so artists can adjust based on what steps are easier for them to complete and Vtubers don't have to shell out stacks of cash and get scammed when the transaction is complete.

[@fishbiter9409]

A new industry that's already starting to die. When it becomes too expensive to commission anything AND you can't make a living charging what people can afford, it becomes unsustainable.

[@pixelpuppy]

As a professional freelance artist for over a decade, communication is THE most important. Delays, changes, everything are usually ok for client or artist, as long as it's communicated clearly, and expectations are set. If something doesn't work out, communicating means there are ways to negotiate or solve the problems, and at the very least, not leave the client feeling like they wasted their time and money.

[@corinavi2244]

As an artist and a rigger I feel this a lot! I personally like to combat the issues of wait lists in 1 simple way I open up a certain number of slots for commissions range of 5-7 at a time. Once these are full I close them this then becomes my "wait list" and I get through them all in about 4 months. For a model it takes me approximately 2.5 to 4 months to complete depending on details and if there is rigging involved. Oh and most important, none of my clients pay any down payments to hold a spot in the waitlist (which is public for all to see) they only pay when I start their commission.

[@LoprinzessVT]

Thank you for not charging a wait list fee! As a psd artist, seeing vtubers be charged for wanting a QUOTE on their model/discussing commissions with the artists I've found can slow down the flow of commissioners and waste people's times.

[@Alexden96Channel]

One way I build trust and confidence with my commissioners is _frequent_ communication. I work on their stuff almost daily and update them on progress almost daily. If there are any delays/things that come up/etc., I let them know ASAP. I also keep things running like a hospital: it doesn't matter who you are, there is a waitlist and it's first come first serve. Commissions take a long time for me, but having those frequent updates helps a lot. I also record timelapses of the process, so they can check up on it anytime if they ask

[@brandonhowell5096]

while giving updates often is good I think doing it daily is overkill if its not a sudden problem.

[@Alexden96Channel]

@@brandonhowell5096 if they want more time in between updates, they can let me know! So far everyone’s been really appreciative even if there’s not much change, but I’m willing to change if it’s too much. It’s necessary at the beginning with the design phase, but can be adjusted later when there’s not much to visually present

[@Alexden96Channel]

​@@brandonhowell5096 my original response got flagged lol Commissioners are welcome to request more time in between updates if it's too frequent, but so far they've all been really appreciative. I can also notify them if I need more time too

[@Swiftstar88]

As a non-artist, I really don't know how long it takes to complete full model or background art, but it seems like a ton of work to me. I just assume it'll take longer than I think it will... >_> I agree that trust is the more important thing right now in part because of the scammers, but also because of how famous some artists are in the community. Is there a Mari curse for you commissioning things? Most of this just sounds like an interesting version of capitalism with cost/price issues but still with prices determined by what people are willing to pay. Great video though! Hope everything goes well with Mochi.

[@brandonhowell5096]

I can't say for everyone but for me when I've done just the art for a "just for fun let's try making one" as of this month I'm just now starting on the coloring after roughly 5-ish months of sketching/lineart, on top of working a full-time job, for a fairly "light" detailed model. For backgrounds most artist will avoid doing them like the plaque, myself included, but if I had to do one that is at least half-way decent probably 1/2 months with limited detailing to complete. Put simply if I actually did open comms for just a single model, with my limited skill, in making just the art it would be at the lowest 800/max 2k. Keep in mind this is a normal human-like model if it was a chibi model I could probably get it done quicker so I'd probably make it half the cost lowest being roughly 200/ max 600. I'm not a rigger so price for that may vary as I can't give any sort of estimation even a personal one

[@Kyosumari]

@@brandonhowell5096 Models from practiced pros still take multiple months to complete, which when you realize that they have to dedicate that amount of time to your project instead of 'working' at a traditional job, it then becomes obvious why some of the nicer ones end up being multiple thousands of dollars. YOu have to pay the artist for those months of time and they need to eat and pay rent too.

[@lilofeefuchsien]

Made one just for fun and one took me one year consistent work (we talk 3/4h average work a day). The 2.0 model took me 5 months but reusing most of the rigging (worked 5h per day). Managed to do that during lock down. I am thinking to make a new one just for fun and redoing everything about the rigging. And as a full-time student who has to commute I won't see ever finishing it xD It's too much work. But it's a nice art project on the side ^^

[@pocahontasseguinart7099]

Art takes a long time trust me I know. as a dissabled self tought artist that's born with microcephaly that is struggling and im born in the year 1995 January 18th ahs I've been painting Sence a imfsnt and I never do stupid commissions for my original art. Reasons why even my moms friend Sence her high school life that's a famouse artist that goes to Disney doing star wars paintings ans even he say don't do commissions. I'm still struggling to get noticed and the 2 last times I did art commesions it went down hill because costumers be ungresful and don't want to understand that you can't sat you hate it, you can't say change it. I'm am expresionisim artist I do what I want to express and how I draw and paint and how I feel and see. Then people don't pay and waste your time when they judge how you do art and that's why I do my do dumb commissions. So hyper online nor worrkimg well but I still want to make my own vtube design like on vroid model and all but I need better computer and I pad. I have ko-fi to get help so I can do this. I'm not a beginner artist I've been doing a long time I just never tried vtube vroid model and I need obs. The computer I have is not compatable. If I get better notice and I get to make my model I will diffently make some to sell but I won't make it $50- up no way. I'm a better artist and indomt like doing they to people. Not everyone can't afford things. 14:38

[@pewpin1039]

As a non artist that worked in a field with similar issues. You are not just paying for the time and effort spent on your commission. You are paying for the skillset the person built up, the guarantee that they will deliver, their name... I honestly didn't know that rush fees are a thing, since from my experience you tend to manage a schedule and if your schedule is full, you don't take more work.

[@dankmemeemporium7635]

ok its been like 4 videos in a row since mari has had the glasses, maybe a tease at the redesign? mari glasses arc?

[@Zedrinbot]

Honestly, my approach for big commissions like this (that aren't sponsorship related / with companies / have a contract) would be to do installments. Still paid up front, but in small amounts proportional to each step. It's the same I'd use for animation commissions if I were taking them. You can establish a rule to adjust the rates a bit for later steps if the design winds up being more complicated than expected. There's a reason a lot of rigs hire someone for the art then someone else for the rigging as well. Part of why it takes so long is just a lot of people are unfamiliar with rigging itself, which is one of the age old conundrums of "if you're more skilled, you're faster, you should technically charge more" that conflicts with hourly rates.

[@Krahazik]

When I got my first ref sheet done from an artist on vgen, the site had a system for handling the commission in stages with payments at each stage. My ref sheet was done in 3 stages.

[@Amigubunny]

Gosh, how happy I am to having learned Live2d! Honestly, I didn't find it THAT difficult, especially if you are not aiming for a waouh-amzing-over-the-top-super-detailed rigging. The beginners guide and YT videos are doing a super decent month, and I managed to rig my model in a week QAQ But this video is super explanatory, I understand better now, thank you so much! ✨️

[@KastelOkami]

Dude saaaame! I learned it in about 4 months once i finally started to use it and stopped letting it terrify me. And you only get better every new rig.

[@aubreymorgan9763]

i had a problem with my newer live 2d model with finding a PSD artist. I applied and applied to anyone who's art I liked for a year and close to 2 dozens applications. I would hear back now and then with a "oh she's so cute" and then that would be it. Then I'd see big time indie and corporate models would get a line of stuff by those people. Money isn't good enough its also your name/popularity. I lucked out with my art mama not being popular at the time and love her style and appreciate her for taking me and my remodel is already planned to be done by her.

[@ajanis95]

I've been waiting... I htink close to a year since my final payment went through for my model. However, I knew going in it would be a while. My 'momma' has health issues that get in the way at times and I know myself. I'm not the kind of guy to press too hard. I prefer keeping the relationship unstressed.Having this in mind and having all the information in front of me definitely helped with managing my expectations and dealing with the wait.

[@MariYumeCh]

i hope your art mama is okay and im glad to hear yall are talking!!! wishing you the best on your model art too!!! im trying to get enough rest so i can finish mine but life REALLY loves doing things >:I

[@CymBoy11]

Modeling a model for vtubing is a lot more complicated that drawing. Takes like 50+ layers to make an eye, imagine adding the layers of the entire body

[@defaulted9485]

It's definitely a ton of work and I can't debunk it costs less than 3000 or 5000 bucks for one. But 50 layers for a single eye seems too bloated... isn't it? 10 layers, I can get for each eye. 20, makes sense... but 50 isn't that's too overkill? The eyeiids, top and bottom. The eyeball The iris The iris' unique properties The glints of the eye The eyebrow Double all them for parallax. Double again if the parallax or effects needs improvements. At most I count that 28 layers. Added unique shading properties and color corrections, that's another 4 layers. making it 32. Unless on top of that you separate the lineart and the color - or make it have left and right parts to have that squishiness if the parallax hadn't covered it - instead of merging it into one, only then it's 28 x 2 + 4, 60 layers . There are a LOT of other parts needs that attention, especially when hairs have strands and the overall face first. Then the rest of the body which is a separate monster in of itself.

[@Gvttermvtt]

@@defaulted9485 It honestly depends on how much detail/movement the client wants in the eye and what kind of animation you want to achieve. Even the absolute barest minimum eye that still looks professional and only needs to blink/look around will still have 5-10 layers. (Eyelids are usually in at least 3 layers, top bottom and middle. Iris and scelera are on a diff layer. Some break up their shadow and eye sparkles for more realistic animation. Some even like to add layers for the eyelashes themselves for more movement etc.) But you start adding different eye-states/colors, moving sparkles, certain expressions, etc, it can add up really quickly. So likely not 50+ for eeeeevery case, but it's certainly not outrageous for a model, especially since the eyes are so important in a character and even more so in an anime style where the eyes take up such a large portion of the face.

[@gd3741]

Maybe I should get into making v tuber models since I already use way too many layers lol

[@CymBoy11]

@@gd3741 just be sure youre on the right layer lmao

[@gd3741]

@CymBoy11 Being on the right layer isn't so much of a problem. Finding the layer that random dot is on, though. Gives me nightmares

[@teddyshinobi]

If a business can't deliver the product their customer paid for it should be a full refund. Full stop, no bs. I want to get a model but I don't want to lose money to someone who won't/can't complete the work and will hide behind life problems as an excuse. I got life problems too and I still have to work so get it done or give me my money back in full.

[@jem1533]

No, customers try to screw artist ALL the time.

[@ANPC-pi9vu]

​@@jem1533 You realize the two things aren't mutually exclusive, surely? The person you are replying to is describing being scammed. The fuck are you saying 'no' to? Artists selling commissions should run like a small business, and if they don't learn how to do that, that is a them problem. It's no excuse to scam paying customers out of ever receiving finished, paid for, products. Scammers deserve no sympathy.

[@raumfahreturschutze]

@@jem1533 Artists don't scam customers?

[@Anistrae]

Thanks for bringing attention to this, Mari! Since I'm new to Vtubing, I decided to go down the PNGTuber route, and I drew my own model just to see if this was something I'd enjoy doing. It's been at least a year now, so I've been considering upgrading to an actual Live2D model, but because I'm struggling in balancing my time, I considered paying a rigger to do it for me. I'm prepared for it to be expensive, but I didn't realize how often people were getting scammed, so this video is a good reminder to think twice before spending any amount of money

[@paranorma_]

This is such a great topic for a video because it's hard to talk about on social media because most of us don't want to start drama but sometimes accidentally being scammed happens. I actually lost 6k NZD back in 2022 on a lewd model that never got done. I still don't have the files even though the artist claims to have finished it and posted my ref sheet on social media, but I didn't talk about it because I was so afraid of being the drama of the day. So absolutely 100% agree with you when you say communication here is key.

[@TheKankeinaiFactor]

Back when I did commissions (I don't any more) I made sure my clients were getting updates at least every 2 weeks and I made sure never to get more models than I could take in a month. The Whole point was to get new clients so I didn't get more until the Q was cleared. Then again, I was doing a lot of illustration and character art before hand so I knew how to budget my time or at the very least make sure the client was happy with updates

[@WhinyPotato]

this current model i am using took a little over a year to get the art for. I posted about it on my Twitter and everything to call her out since she continued to open slots for more commissions and would tell me "oh it will be done X month" I paid for it Nov (2021) for it to be finished by March (2022) I didn't get it till Nov (2022) after pretty much bothering her every week for it. and I KNOW she could have done it quicker because she forgot about my 2nd outfit that I asked for and pumped that out in 2 weeks. I had to go through our DMs and provide SS proof that I even asked for a 2nd model because she didn't remember... There are things with it that she never did for me that I asked. as well as things about my model I don't like but she took SO long I was just happy to have it. its left such a bad taste in my mouth that honestly... I'm currently getting a new model made because the one I have now, although super pretty... it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. however, even the artist I have now doesn't give me as many updates as I would like... she was paid for at the beginning of March and I was told it should take her about 1.5 months to finish her. Ive only seen the sketch/partially rendered of one outfit and hair (Im getting 3 outfits, 5 hairs, and 4 arm poses) Im fine if it takes longer since I don't have a slot for the rig till July. but I just wish she would at least send me a message once a week saying "started X this week" I feel like as a customer I shouldn't have to be the one messaging asking for an update :/

[@BmacSoundsLab]

Might wanna get things out of the way before discussing payments like any business talks go. What are your availability, estimations, how’s your update schedule, etc. It’s just respectful for both the commissioner and the artist as people have different work ethics and preferences that everything should be kept pristine to get the purest form of their art and skill. That being said, should they stray from what is established, it’s best to contact them then and see what the problem is. As you’ve said, people got struggles too.

[@WhinyPotato]

@@BmacSoundsLab I did do that and I let them know what happened with the last artist... but sadly I'm still having to ask for updates. its been 20 days since the sketch was sent, and almost 2 weeks since the last message from them. it wasn't an update message just them telling me they are going to finish the base model before they work on the other outfits (which makes sence), and almost a week since I asked if there were any updates.

[@BmacSoundsLab]

@@WhinyPotato Damn. I wish you luck then. I wished more people were honest with their work ethic. The world would a better a place.

[@winters_angel]

thats super unprofessional of them to not give you regular and consistent updates, especially when you've already payed

[@alexlara2350]

i went through a very similar experience,, it got to the point where a group of people who were current or past clients on the modeler came together to to support each other and other people who were still waiting on their commissions while the artist's waitlist was growing ever longer and other models were getting much faster turn-arounds i now have a model that i conceptually like but because of everything that happened and the things it represents now, i dont really like to use it

[@ellume6514]

As someone looking to become a vtuber it is a real challenge finding people I feel are trustworthy enough to consider commissioning. A model and rigging is a major investment for an indie vtuber. Likewise, the proliferation of scammers in this space is so damaging for the new legit artists trying to make a reputation and living from this work because so few people want to take the risk. This is the single most challenging step I've been facing so far in my journey to become a vtuber.

[@Kyosumari]

Try seeking artists on Vgen - they're vetted and verified and virtually deletes these issues.

[@Keima97]

I got neatly scammed and ever since, I'm unable to trust anyone....

[@pastelpinkpichu]

I recommended using VGEN website as it is safe for you and the artist there. That is where I met my artist and she is currently working on my model!

[@JostDraws]

Honestly just know people, i honestly do comissions to people i kinda know or i get to know them with some dialog and keep them updated on my work, i never take money without showing work and have deadlines so if i got past them i refund the client, i guess what people need is good business practices, find someone with good practices and values and im almost sure you wont be scammed, also get to know them better too since having honest conversations in my experience makes people less likely to just run off with your money

[@TheFloraBonBon]

This is why i'm gonna be saving up the money for a ref sheet, emotes, Model an rigging, plus transition layouts from the same creator. These creators deserve the money for all their work. But i will only commission one thing at a time, i don't wanna overwork them ^^'

[@Krahazik]

I tried but had to go with 2 separate artists. The artist that did my ref sheet was learning modelling, but was not at the stage they would feel comfortable with charging for modelling and rigging (3d in my case). So I had to go with a 2nd artist to do the 3d model and rigging. As a bonus, my modeller offered weekly updates so I took that so I could follow the progress.

[@GolgariGymBro]

I used to watch a Vtuber who also did Live2D and art. I believe she was a Vtuber mama and papa when she graduated. The subject came up several times and she actually did a few rigging streams. It's insane how much attention to detail and patience you need to make a model look good when it's animated. It was a good look behind the curtain and was still fun to watch, especially when she would miss a node, test it and everything moved except that node.

[@sleepysylphy]

I'm still waiting on my model after a year. I am the artist. (I'm trying to learn live 2d cause I can't afford to commission a model) 😅

[@xSaraxMxNeffx]

same hun, same. the worst part is when the client (myself) decided half way through the PSD phase to just scrap the whole thing and start over with a new concept. Source; i've done this to myself three times in the past year....help

[@sleepysylphy]

@@xSaraxMxNeffx omg SAME 😭

[@Kyosumari]

mood

[@Kyosumari]

@@xSaraxMxNeffx When you got 50% done with the ref sheet and then decided you hated it.

[@PuppetVestrala]

I do all my own stuff, model, emotes, banners etc cause of costs. (And art practice..) but I have actually picked up Live 2d because of the prices and knew I would be unable to pay an artist their worth for the work even if I got the model rig ready for them. It also comes down to just doing myself because of wait times, I already struggle with getting my own stuff done and am trying really hard to do better and get better at it,I don't want to have to worry about someone getting in the way of me staying on schedule for whatever I want or need done. Which is a sad thing to say, I will never fault an artist for real life stuff getting in the way and having to put things on the back burner, but communicating is key for sure, just a quick "Real life shit sorry" would be fine too,no need for details. Any understanding person would get it cause life happens and shit gets messed up. It's kinda sad to see the scamming practices becoming more common.

[@Cuteemogirl94]

honestly same. I'm so glad that drawing was always my passion. I'm almost done with my first 2D Avatar but rigging takes a lot of time since I wanted a lot of Details

[@PuppetVestrala]

@@Cuteemogirl94 Right! You really are paying a rigger for time *you* the buyer don't have to spend doing it yourself, as well as skills. Just got done with head turns on my own 2d model and that was so hard!

[@fernandorangel9449]

I’m also a Vtuber artist, and I live in a underdeveloped country, my fee it’s nothing above 150 USD because of the same reason the video exposes, most of the people that know my work, is people around that same country, we live in a very low paycheck and I can confirm that it’s so hard to have like one commission at most just because people think it’s way too much money, when in reality it’s a lot of animation, rigging and design job, all at once, thank you for bringing this topic to light!

[@Oldboy..]

Thanks! This video made me smile. I am Mangaka & build/rig these for people. Shibuya (Tokyo) is expensive but never pass that on to client, use the same math as manga/genga. Recent client asked for many changes and additions with only a few days before deadline. They say they had new ideas that just came even though passed concept. I did not sleep for last 6 days to finish by deadline, and they were really really happy, which means so much to me. But they don't know that I didn't sleep or rest. This is very common. I am so honored to work in this business, but very hard on the body, and one bad comment can ruin an entire career, and sometimes people forget we are human, a person, client and artist depend on each other, even if we are a step in a journey

[@Merdragoon]

When I was experimenting with trying to learn Live2D modles and rigging I realized real quick how much harder it was (I was also not in a good headspace at the time as I was just recently getting back into art after a bout of depression). So it wasn't going to be commissions while I practiced because I didn't feel up to snuff. I felt weirdly happier with my weird ass PNGtuber modle I made for myself and a former friend's than I did with my actual 2D vtuber model attempt. The Fromer Friend's ended up being more of a quick chibi thing I did just so they had something at the time so they had time to shop around (it was free, it wasn't going to be a perma thing origonally as it was their design that I worked on with them). I finally gotten to where I'm happier with my art in it's flawed way and I'm even working on adding stuff for my own streams, eventually actually redoing my PNGtuber model where it reflects my art now. Making Live2d Models are *hard*, No matter how you "simplfy it" and I can only imagine the difficualty to rigging when you're new at it because there for a while I was starting to feel discouraged even when I was saying "I want to do that! I want to make things like that!" When I would see these extreamly beautifully fluid vtuber models, like there was one that was a zombie and I was like "they almost could turn their head like a 3D model! Yo!" PNGtubers are far more accessiable for me to hone my craft and you can do animated PNGs to get a little extra movement if you want with Vedeomini I came to realize. (My model moves it's mermaid's tail and when I talk, it moves it's mouth on a loop, though a bit too fast to my liking, while it blinks, Just an example for those who may want to consider doing an PNGtuber instead of a Live2d Model right out of the gate). But even then, I don't think I'm "good enough" to commission doing these PNGtuber models yet as I'm still rehoning my craft. So I came to a conclusion: I may not start off doing PNGtuber model commissions, but instead I'm going to put on Ko-fi instead a few "container" assets for Vtubers and normie streamers alike so they can use when they have low energy vs high energy or whatever they need it for. More "generic" things like empty and full battieries (for the more Cyberpunk themes), low and high jars of honey (I've seen a lot of bee themes on etsy so I think it's safe to say they're used a lot), Maybe a empty and full bucket of shells? (the more oceany themes I see) and the like. I figured showing the audiance the mental health through a simple, low-key way is *way* more important than that of perfect models right away. I had done the full and empty spoon bucket before, and I kinda did the full and empty chest for myself, and also did two more for friends as gift. Figured it would be a nice, cheap way to start off and people could download and use right away without any issue to fit with the more generic themes when they're starting off.

[@JRCOBRA]

I was lucky, my artist I met through RP streams, and we played on the same servers so we some what knew each other and she did the rigging I was expecting to be starting streaming by the beginning of but she ended up busting it all out in a few months. I've heard do many horror stories about people being scammed.

[@Furluge]

6:28 - Set deadlines ahead of time and the deadline should be 10-20 days before the deadline before your credit card's chargeback deadline. Anything longer than that see about paying in parts as work is completed or make sure you REALLY trust you hire. Hiring skilled labor follows the same principles be it artwork or home improvement. Do not be afraid to establish boundaries and negotiate with who you are talking to so you can find a mutually beneficial agreement. A lot of people aren't too good at adopting a business mindset when it comes to this, or they open themselves up to abuse instead of being assertive.

[@DBVT2]

i made my own vtuber, i used 5 days to learn-rush about rigging the easiest and fastest way posible making it look "decent". also im drawing my own emotes + making my first emote comission, so i understand that the way you spend your time is the own thing that will depend if your on time on your things or not. Im debuting in may 5 and i still have 7 emotes left to do + point channel desing + alert design + channel point toggles. So yeah. the most expensive thing on every art stuff, its the time you spend on it! So i understand the frustration of dont having anything on the time youre supposed to have it because of life-changing situations

[@natgl11]

I'm an artist and I've been thinking about getting into designing and rigging vtuber models for a couple years now, but it's such a steep learning curve. I'm fine on the design front, no issues with that, but the rigging... people really underestimate how difficult it is and especially how time consuming it is. like, you have to be very detailed if you want it to look right. it's a lot of repetitive work, but at the same time you can't really zone out because you have to pay a lot of attention because it's very easy to mess up. learning how to properly use the program is a job in itself and I don't think many people think of that. while you're learning and can't take commissions, you have to have another job to pay the bills, which means less time to learn, which means more time before you can take commissions, etc. the prices on many models can look outrageous from the outside, but if you take everything into account, they're really not unreasonable. (also to clarify, you can totally learn how to rig in less than 2 years, I'm just chronically ill and been dealing with a worsening of my illnesses, so I haven't been able to draw or.. well, do anything, really, which is why my progress has stalled. hopefully my issues will ease up a bit so i can get back to it and also to work in general lol) edit bc I forgot to say this: I feel really bad for the people that get scammed. it's on the artists to be transparent about difficulties and offer solutions, whether total refunds or partial ones along with the partially finished work. the scammers just make it harder for everyone, both clients and artists. they create distrust within the community. I also feel bad for the people that want to get into vtubing and can't afford a model. like yeah, anyone can be a png-tuber, but it's not the same and to me it's always felt a bit dismissive when people say that. but at the end of the day, artists need to be able to make a living, so even though I feel bad for the people that can't afford it, I don't know that there's a solution to this issue other than the sites that have a few free generic models.

[@M_Lopez_3D_Artist]

I just got to say i cant believe how huge you have got from when I remember u had like just a few thousands subscribers and on twitch when you first started, its amazing how high you have come to this level.

[@AaaaNinja]

It's because when you try to explain something you invite argument. It's just not worth it. People always argue about the value of skills in all industries no matter how specialized. People get sticker shock about the cost of cutting down a tree, replacing their deck, a SANDWICH etc. Just list a fair price. People who make Live2d models are making puppets that are custom that are going to be that person's brand. It's an investment. Just for comparison, a good stop-motion puppet with custom-machined parts costs the same as a new car.

[@Fighting.Flower]

God, speaking about everything reminds you of something: i do general commissions as well as art trades. And there's two people who commissioned me (haven't payed because i only accept payment until i've teased them the sketch) and an art trade with someone who have already finished their part. As well as a commission i've ask for. Problem is...i lost my DeviantArt password and have no way of contacting, nor paying for the commission. It has almost been a year and i have been stressed out the entire time with guilt for something out of my control to the point it's effecting my day to day life. I feel like a horrible person practically 24/7 and have both been losing sleep and the motivation to even draw consistently anymore as i just get viciously anxious and guilty and can't stop no matter what i do. I don't want them to think i've scammed/ditched them, i hate ditching people, and i'm fully against scamming! This video just brought these feelings up to the surface again. I'm sorry.

[@Meowstrosity]

Is it an option for you to contact them through another DeviantArt account? also, you didnt do it on purpose, dont blame yourself into feeling constant suffering over it, be appropriate with the amount of guilt you feel; it's VERY unfortunate but you certainly didnt cause them to constantly reconsider their worth as a human being, ya know? Most importantly, it wasn't something you decided to do- fucked up people choose to do those things, you didn't!

[@cosmic_seabunny]

I don’t think you should feel bad. You didn’t take their money before the product was finished (unlike a certain someone in this video) and you haven’t even been able to active on your account. At worst they’ll just think that you’re dead or not using the account anymore. I highly doubt they’d make a big deal about something they essentially neither lost or gained.

[@JonoFunk]

I try to get a new model every year while looking for new riggers & artists. It's always a wild ride! My advice is to be patient and considerate since it takes a huge amount of work! The last thing you want is for them to freak out and rush. Once you get it, that's pretty much how it will be forever!

[@chris_kazuki]

As an 3D Artist i usually take, half upfront and the other half when its finished. But yeah there are many scammer out there i get like 3 new ppl a day that are "artist" asking if i want to commission them. A good i can give is, ask them for a portfolio or screens of their previous work. Many scammer either have nothing or just mix of completely different styles and qualities.

[@hatoloungevt3643]

As an artist who does art and live2D commissions, the best advice I can give is to do your best to not fall to desperation when you are in complicated financial situation, it's best in the long run to take smaller comms you know you can finish in a good amount of time, yes big comms are amazing when you are in need of money but the stress of multiple big pending works is something I don't wish on anyone, specially when the commissions are the kind you need to take time with them, it's not worth it. You bring good points on both sides Mari, it's nice to see others speak about these kind of things, not much I can add besides life being hard on all us, not as a negative thing but to find solace in understanding each other, of course this doesn't excuse the bad actors, I would love for everyone to get their art in time, failing that, that the work continues until you get what you commission for as a work principle as they keep communication solid.

[@SillyGirlKisser74]

as an artist who does this for a living, this is hard, like, barely reaching the end fo the month hard, it's better than an office job yeah I can work from home and be on my pc but I'm not playing videogames or watching anime I'm working since I wake up until I go to sleep and I STILL have a 2 to 3 month waiting list

[@rubberduckyknight7049]

i made my model and was lucky that a friend was willing to rig it trying to teach me at the same time, and i can say its a nightmare and hard to get everything just right, even now i find flaws but still i move on, tho sometimes i do believe in COD (cash on delivery) water mark the hell out of the end product is fine, to show yep its done and it looks the way i need and messed up so much that i cant use it until the artist untoggled whatever

[@LadyDanger420]

This is why I made my own (3D) model with free programs to start out. VRoid Studio + VSeeFace have gotten me started and I'm pretty happy with what I have so far, if I do want a fancier model I've been trying to learn Live2D so I can rig it myself. But as someone who also does commissions and has had unexpected delays in one I've been working on right now, it's important to keep communication. I've been working on this (non model, just an art piece) commission for a month because we had some family emergencies come up, but I kept my commissioner in the loop and let them know there was a delay.

[@X1Daring2]

I got my vtuber model for under 80$ but only because I have a face mask on, eyepatch, and basic rigging, depending on the artist you can get a model for cheep, it's very important to respect the artist and their rules as well no matter the price

[@Kyosumari]

Complex models take months to do. You're not getting one of those for 80 bucks for sure. Even then, that's a criminally low price. Please pay artists what they're worth, everyone! And Artist!! Start asking for what you're worth too!

[@phaego_san]

As an artist, I stay true to my TAT as much as possible and communicate with the commissioner constantly on updates and potential delays.

[@MiyaMareena]

Been waiting since january deadline is on may 6th and so far I "only" saw a sketch. (new model art) They promise to hit the deadline but communication only happened when I kind of begged and was very rare. It's extremely scary, I wonder if they understand the fear that comes with situations like this even if they feel like they are right on time and can do it easily in the time left? I don't want to be annoying, spamming them with messages and stuff like that and I try to trust that they can do it and am cheering them on currently. But it's often prices that could cover 1-2 months of rent and a lot of past trauma making people very nervous..

[@beatricealfbern]

Every time I hear a story like this I am baffled. I cannot in good conscious not work on something I've been commissioned for, because of how much I hear about these stories, I make commissions my top priority in order to ease the mind of the client. Even if someone has passed, or I am sick, I will at least try to make some progress to send over. I typically get most commissions done in a week but if it takes longer (like a vtuber model) I provide updates weekly or bi-weekly. The longest I've taken on a model was 4 months because they allowed me time to experiment with new things, every model I've made for myself I've made within a week or two. No matter how big the piece, I don't think I could ever dare to allow someone to wait an entire year.

[@ArtGirl0335]

Oh, 100% yes. Life always gets in the way of commissions for other people. As a full-time college student, I always let my commissioners know I'll mainly be busy through the school semester and should work on their art over winter and summer break. I always let them know how things are going and when I'm free. If they ask for a refund, I refund them, end of story.

[@MythicalHex]

not vtuber models but I've commissioned a few artists who have ended up having health issues, or family issues, or even technical issues and just.. not said anything, so I've waited for months without hearing of any progress and sent multiple messages until they told me but because I'm so passive I just.. let them away with it :P

[@moringlory23]

I actually went to school for animation, so the process of making the different eyes and mouths and the cutting process are familiar to me. I am working on my own model that I hope to debut next year at the latest. I also have a 8am to 5pm full-time and am currently in the process of moving out while also maintaining a social life. When I take a commission, I only charge for the hours I am working on the commission and I am up front about being first come, first serve. This is my first time doing a V-Tuber model so I can see how time consuming it can be. I believe that riggers and artist should charge based on their needs and demand.

[@zahnthebat]

I’m someone who had to make my own VTuber model. When I was starting, I had minimal experience with drawing (drew here and there in my youth and was considered good “for a kid”), and literally no experience in Live2D. I wasn’t aiming to draw anything extravagant, just clean and sufficient enough to work when I get to rigging. And when I got to rigging, I was so lost. It took me roughly a week to get a decent workflow going and when I finished finally, I was simply happy to have it done. I was already pretty aware of how much time and money goes into a model before I started making mine. It was precisely why I made my own. So, my experience making my own model made me better understand and appreciate the process behind making a VTuber model. I did take solace in the fact that since I made everything myself, I could go back anytime to make additions and adjustments to the model I made. However, I’m a bit limited to my current skill when it comes to drawing and how far I can take ideas I want to apply while rigging. I want to learn how to draw better and improve my rigging, but I have no time for those things as of recent, which is unfortunate since making a model was actually fun to me, especially the rigging. So, I’d still love to be able to commission others to do art and rigging, but I need to save money for that and look for trusted artists and riggers that could better portray my idealized VTuber model than I ever could.

[@md-fi7zt]

im making a model now (thanks for your tuts by the way!) because im deeply impatient but GOODNESS i really couldnt imagine being paid less than minimum wage for all this work

[@RealmRabbit]

I have someone I know IRL who offered to make me a Live2D model for Christmas and yeah, I'm really grateful for it... It has been nearly 5 months and they're still working on it... Was super happy when they offered because it's like probably worth 10x what the usualy gift would be lol... It also made me feel a bit bad anytime I gave them feedback about changes but they were pretty clear they wanted me to really like the model and a lot of art adjustments aren't much of a problem for them... They even worked with me in preparing some toggles... They are really talented at art, they've been doing it for a long time, though this is like their second time making a model (their own being their first) and so it doubles as a way for them to learn the software and get practice rigging... Regardless they did a really nice job with their first model so I'm really excited, only reason I won't credit them in this comment is since I don't want it to seem like a promo... But yeah, I guess that's the secret to having affordable Live2D models... Have a real life person who is very talented and willing to make one for you at little to no cost... Really hope they also get good commissions in the future...

[@RaspShaverOfDwarves]

When your brought up all the free publicity simple from the artist, it was a really good point that I never thought about! I simply looked through smaller artist intentional to find one with an art style I liked. The thought of the free publicity never crossed my mind. Even so, I'm glad I did thing the way I did. Model is coming in a week or so, and I got the opportunity to support a new(er) artist. Patron of the arts if you will.

[@someonewithpoortaste]

I'm currently learning live2d and I'm lucky to be learning really fast, but damn the first time I opened the program, it REALLY felt overwhelming, the amount of stuff there was on my screen that I had no idea what it did x)

[@aprillynnevt4654]

😅 ive been on my current artists waitlist for 2 years, and she's going to be opening commissions very soon and I'm so very excited ♡

[@kaoru9829]

I made myself a fullbody live2d model from scratch in a month- art and rigging. It was hard work. I put everything else on hold and didn’t stream for that entire month because I just had to put my head down and work. If I also had a job at the time I simply wouldn’t have been able to get it done in time. It took hours and hours of work every day, and it didn’t even have complex physics or toggles or anything. Making a live2d model takes so much care. Every little adjustment has to be intentional. I can’t even imagine how overwhelming it’d be to work on multiple models at the same time. I’m not trying to excuse people continuously missing deadlines and scamming their commissioners of course!! I mean to say that live2d models are very time consuming and the artists and riggers deserve to be respected and paid well. And if you’re taking commissions for live2d models, you need to be prepared for the amount of work that comes with it. And don’t undervalue yourself!!!

[@durandus676]

I used to be a design engineer for toyota. I genuinely don’t understand how long some artists take. As long as the customer provides a rough draft for the model or a clear vision it should be fine. These turn around times I hear about from customers like kirsche are crazy. Maybe it’s because artists just aren’t good with CAD. Ive had to redesign parts in a program I never used before within a week. The raw model should cost more than the CAD. Weird effects like lean in on matara ken aside. I understand some customers are atrocious causing delay too. 9:54 they’re degenerate. Rigging is kinesthetic computer assisted design. It is 100% a technical field and some idiot thinks because they took a year to make one once as a half asses project they can charge people thousands for it. There’s a similar issue with bad contractors in construction.

[@pixphysix8245]

cost of models and lack of return customers is the reason why bigger artists have a sign-on document that states the streamer pays an interest to the creator for stream income as well. Any time I commission anything I always ask if it's possible to do a "pay in 4" approach, first as a security deposit, second after line-art, third during the halfway point/final changes, last payment upon completion

[@bamb3928]

I like that idea, I’ve been thinking about doing art commissions. I don’t want to get scammed so I was trying to figure out how much to charge for a deposit and such. I think this is a good strategy.

[@RadiantBleu]

To be honest, I want to get into VTubing however.. I’m an artist so I’ll try to learn to make my own model

[@Mika-mc8xz]

Thank you for creating this video. I'm currently on my journey to rigging models, and doing as much market research as I can. Thank you for sharing your stories and frustrations because it gives me something to keep in mind when I create my schedule and expectations.

[@alishatrew]

I made my 3D model using VRoid Studio. Even though it didn’t cost me any money, it took nearly 250 hours of drawing, adding clothes and hair, and rigging. I completely understand why artist’s prices are what they are.

[@F_NerdShark]

I’m VERY new to the VTubing community lol I’m still trying to figure out models and rigging and how all this stuff works - so for people like me, this was very helpful! Thank you ^w^!!! I hope your dog gets better, they seem very sweet

[@Horsaz]

Personally, as someone who does the art and the rigging myself and who is also disabled I don't give my clients a deadline to when I'll be finished and is very straight forward with this and hoping I'll get understanding for this. I give updates every 1 - 2 weeks no matter what and is honest if I haven't been able to work much that week. I only have 2 payment plans, either pay it all when I start the commission or pay half once I start the commission (both plans over paypal invoice) and half when I'm done (I honestly prefer option 2).

[@noxauranyx]

I'm both an artist and rigger. It breaks my heart how many people straight up scam in this space. As I'm newer to the commission side of things my prices are lower and I don't get hired too often. People are scared to try newer artists out and seeing how many scams there are, I understand that fear wholeheartedly. These are big projects and as Vtuber models are often a representation of the buyer, you, in some way, they want to be done well and handled with care. I feel for your situation and even though time has passed I hope you can find a resolution of some kind!

[@redstarwarrior85]

I have a good relationship with an artist/rigging duo where I pay half upfront and half on satisfactory completion of my requests.

[@tygerluna]

Thank you so much for talking about this! I am an artist, and I am trying to make my own model and the amount of time is far longer than I anticipated! I can see why models cost so much 💜💜

[@qtdonghun]

i paid for a model (no rigging, just art) back in september and the artist told me it would take 3 months, but it's almost may and i've never seen more than a few sketches. everytime i ask for an update it takes them a couple weeks to even respond and i totally don't mind waiting as long as the work gets done, but when i'm trying to plan out rigging as well with another person it's really stressful to be so behind schedule 😮‍💨

[@kithalie]

Ahhh I feel this!! I just recently commissioned someone just for the art, and they said a 3 month wait time. So that’s fine. But it’s also difficult to find a rigger, so it may even take a year or more to get all things done🥲 especially since not only is finding an artist that is good to do live2d art is difficult, it’s also difficult to find a rigger🥲 I’ve been looking for years for open commissions and a good artist for live2d. Luckily I found an underrated artist.

[@Mizuuri609]

I'm just imagining all the A.I. tech bro's watching this with dollar signs in their eyes and immediately setting out to make a 2d/3d ai model maker.

[@magnopere]

Sssshhhhhshahshh lol XD

[@kakkak1]

Pro tip, don't give your money to an artists until it's the time to start the actual commission, I hear so many stories from both sides, either customers having getting scammed or artists getting charged backed on a complete commission. And please find and artists who you like not just one that is available and ask them to do something you don't see in their portfolio. I'm a 2d/3d artist, I've done one live2d model as just a practice to learn the program and i'll be honest it's not that hard of a program to learn, on the very basic level. So if you just wish to do *SIMPLE RIG* which has, head turns without large of turning angles, maybe an iris jiggle and some arm sway, there are guide and videos for it all. You can even find templates for head turns and angles, so this is all doable even as a non artists and something you can learn in a week to a month depending on how much time you have to dedicate. I've done decent amount of 3d models but only a handful commissions. Mostly due to my online visibility still being relatively small, having to price the models quite high (1800~2500€),and of the large time investment it takes to make a 3d model, usually 1~2 months but if there are things that require learning new niche techniques or being complicated it can go an extra month or even two in the worst cases. For 2d artists or even complete beginners wanting dip their toes into 3d i would recommend Vroid , this is basically an anime character creator program that comes with plugins that can create your ARkit face tracking. There are some quite creative ways people have made Rest is following tutorials and maybe having to join a discord due to making a mistake that wasn't specified anywhere. The usual fun troubleshooting. PS. Please don't sleep on png models, like even as your main model. you have SO much freedom with PNG's they are much faster to make, you can have gifs bunch of emotions, you can swap the entire PNG design going from cute UwU chibi to a raging realistic gorilla with a click of a button. just gotta be quick on those toggles ;P oh also old youtube account from when i was a kid so won't find me with this name xD

[@matdavis9127]

something else that kinda rubs me with commissioning is when artist will contact you and show you their art and in a way guilt you into commissioning them afterwards then when you realize you wont be able to afford their prices and try to convince you over and over again and even bring up why they need the money, it doesnt make me feel like i can trust that they'll actually finish it or even half-ass it if i spend 350 and its even worse when 1 artist does this and 5 more artist use the same tactics

[@pixlethevtuber]

That's why I personally rig people's models for free. It usually doesn't take me long to rig models (2-3 days, sometimes a week if I'm feeling unmotivated). I rig for fun, it's something I like to do. That and there's some things I'm not good at yet (mouth rigging). I don't want to charge someone for a rig that only has simple mouth movements.

[@mister-canada367]

Have you rigged a lot of models?

[@pixlethevtuber]

@mister-canada367 I've rigged 2 or 3 of other people's models. I've rigged all of my own models, though.

[@lampdevil]

Yup, I'm still waiting on a model commission, too. It was a small thing, and I went into it knowing the artist would have a slow turnaround time, but ahh, I'd like to have the thing I'd paid for, yeah? There's a lot of talk about how people will wait for a Big Name Modeler to take their request because of the social boost, but tbh my biggest concern that I have right now as I save my money and prepare to drop a bunch of cash on a significant model upgrade is finding someone that I know will just do the work in a timely and responsible fashion. Artists and riggers that have that track record of producing what they've promised are incredibly attractive to me when I gotta pay for everything in Canadian dollars! Which are worth 25%-30% less than the USD that everyone's operating in!

[@SG7Music]

I'm using a 3d model i made in vroid. I've thought about commissioning a model, but I want to make sure I'll actually use it.

[@rindrr]

I currently have a prepaid model because I couldn’t afford a full model just yet. I completely understand why they cost so much and hope artists can raise their prices for their well being.

[@TypicalElf]

Yeah l2d is difficult to get into, especially if you're horrible with art (me). To be honest, I suggest 3d models, vroid studios is pretty easy to work with, and free on stream. For anyone just getting into vtubing, it wont look as good as l2d, but it's at least something without a big price tag you can work with before going in with big bucks.

[@RuujRubellite]

I had to wait for almost a full year with 0 updates until the colored sketch was posted on Twitter. I even got pushed back a few times because "rush fees". I'm glad I received it and I love my l2d model but I do wish I got feedback or updates more than just "here's the model".

[@Koel_Hellion]

Art is a luxury and people seem to forget that

[@rimurupandora6568]

I am still uncertain if I even want to do vtuber content creation, let alone try to commit to creation at this stage. If I did, the struggle isn't so much as the wait but who I can trust that is affordable and will not run away with my hard earned money that I have bleed my time and health for. Its different for everyone, but this video is definitely informative enough for any aspiring vtuber.

[@rukaerika]

A higher price means that the artist is more focused and has a buffer so will be glad to do the work as they aren’t worried they can’t pay rent. It means that if the artist is on the climb then they will be doing the work like a pro and refining their experience and not over committing their time(so limited slots to show your actual scarcity is important). The channel The Futur has excellent content . Most artists aren’t rich as they don’t realize they are their own entrepreneurs since they focus on the work and so they don’t think like a business and how to be successful.

[@StarlightAkari]

Eyyy, +1 for the Futur! Definitely think vtubers could benefit so much from learning things on the business of art and client communication side from a place as professional as them, very good suggestion!

[@NimrodClover]

I looked into Live2D and the 2D animation process back in 2016 just prior to the VTuber explosion and found the process creative and tedious. Being an Architect, this aspect of super exact and detail oriented artwork was normal to me. Hearing the discussion about compensation for VTuber work, now that the market have become more developed is just like Architectural work. It has made me smile, because traditionally very creative work is often under-appreciated and under paid. Maybe I should be a Live2D modeler.

[@CreativeFiddler]

as an artist that struggles to get commissions its infuriating to see these people get handed money and then they run off with it. Like wtf? You get this opportunity and a clients trust and yet you don't deliver the product and on top of that your customer service is shit too?! I don't care I think these people should be called out because it's unacceptable, you end up with Vtubers like Kirsche and other clients that get burned by these scammers. On the flip side I think at least new clients should respect an honest artist time, there's a disconnect with many non-artists who just don't realize the time it takes to make something, heck some of them think it's easy! To which i say, ok why don't you make it? and yeah the economy rn sucks and art is simply a luxury product at the end of the day, you don't need it. Great video!

[@nobody-xh6ii]

But there's also the fact artists refuse to listen and don't update the clients. Si the clients are left fetching artists CONSTANTLY! I've had to do this more times than I can count that I only use 2 artists anymore

[@CreativeFiddler]

@@nobody-xh6ii I'm sorry you've had that experience, imo that's a big sign to pull out if you can, or not commission them again. Artist should make a point to contact clients at minimum once a week (bonus points for daily updates!) or clue them into what's happening. And while artist can exercise creative freedom, they should hear out their clients and help guide them to appropriate creative decisions (cause not everything a client says or wants will look good, of course if the client really wants XYZ and both artist and client have talked it over then both parties know what the expectations are, communication is so super super important!!) Ig for clients maybe reach out to some of the commissioners of said artist and ask what is was like working with that artist? idk I very rarely commission other artists but thats one way I'd try to vet them out, but man I've heard plenty of horror stories of people waiting yeeeeeears

[@Joy-uw2rj]

been attempting to learn Live2D as a digital artist for a personal game project, it really takes a lot of time, even more than when you just draw for the sake of drawing.

[@ArinChickInn]

It's crazy how many people are having issues with this I am very transparent that my rigs are done inbetween working, streaming, and relaxing. But I have literally never taken a year to complete one. 6 months is closer to where I complete these, and I am constantly updating people. Even if it's just a little adjustment or something

[@Sb129]

Stories like this (and similar ones from other online fields) just reinforce my flaw of just trying to do everything on my own.

[@celfhelp]

another thing to keep in mind is: you are not just paying for the modeling, or rigging, or etc., you are paying for the benefits/appeal that good work brings you it's essentially the same reason why professional music production software/instruments or art programs or video editing software are expensive: you're paying for access to professional tools, because professionals tools are (generally) required to make professional money high quality/value vtuber models are expensive because they're for high quality/value vtubers, same with high quality rigging, so on and so forth. in this context, having high quality, expensive work inherently makes you more appealing to viewers, meaning you are a little more likely to see success; THAT'S what you're paying for, especially since you can't torrent an expensive vtuber model and/or rigging. haha in all mediums and contexts where this applies, it can certainly be discouraging when you're trying to 'break into' the space or pick up a new hobby, but it's just a reality that you need to plan/work around if you don't have much money to work with, don't look for high-cost things, and if you're not willing or able to save money to invest in your career/hobby, be prepared to deal with the realities of low cost work; it's never going to be the same level, benefits, or professionalism of high cost work as a few others have said, all of this will balance out eventually once "vtubing" is a settled medium/market, but while vtubing is relatively 'new', the business and workings surrounding it are not, and you can learn alot from other areas/mediums and apply it directly to vtubing in almost every way, if only to make it all make more sense to you

[@heartsandtarts]

I am extremely lucky to be a visual spatial “genius”, because for me it’s not hard to make VTuber models. Rather, it’s tedious and takes a lot of troubleshooting and foresight. The more models you make, the more you gain insight on how to do it more efficiently. I did my first commission a couple months back, I was about two days late for the due date. Even though it wasn’t a big deal and the due date was more of a suggestion, I still felt bad for being late. To be completely honest with you, I think a lot of the delays from some of these designers stems from depression, and the lack of communication is due to anxiety(especially when the days add up and it snowballs). Artists have more emotions to deal with, but truly successful artists learn to overcome that weakness. It’s honestly crazy that you didn’t get refunded though, I really can’t imagine ever doing that to someone. I haven’t publicly been in the VTuber commission space so I don’t know what it’s like. Hope you find some more diligent artists soon! Xoxoxoxo

[@MoirinStrawberryVODS]

Im a vtuber artist and rigger I also do art commissions and stuff, and I had this typa experience where I had to prioritize a higher paying commission than others, not because it was a higher paying one but because it was a rush order. Because of this I would update the other clients little by little but not my usual, "full sketch, full lineart, full render" updates plus university crushing into my schedule... It's rly hard to manage and I would catch myself sleeping at 4 am because of commissions. I am just glad that my clients were patient with me, and they did say they were not in a rush but of course I did not want to take advantage of that!

[@FeatherP]

From the perspective of a bystander most of the issues come down to lack of integrity, organization and planning

[@jon24rules]

Great video! Ngl ive been shopping around for awhile now since ive been wanting to not only get into streaming but content creation as a whole. Just through fivver seeing the cost for a full body, i thought it was cheap in comparison not realizing that they have been undercutting themselves. There are some really amazing artists and just trying to do my own 3d model to start out with, can definitely be a toll. For me, i would rather pay more and let it take more time to allow the artist to create their best product, and even to i would ABSOLUTELY give them free publicity and shoutouts just because it truly is hard to stick out in a market that is super saturated. I hope more people endorse this idea and see more live2d artists shine more!

[@Kanai_Mamoru]

I once waited for a commission for 9 months when they said it would take 30 days

[@PootatoAnimas]

I am a beginner with the vtubing models because I felt it was art that fit me. I personally tell them before hand "Please remember I am younger and I dont always have time in my day to do a whole bunch" I do put all of my effort I can in it. I usually let them commission first, finish the model, I show them the model first before they pay so they can change things if need be, I usually give updates every 2-4 days I usually try my best and I hate the people who are "starting" and then end up just being scammers because it makes it so much harder for us beginners to get commissions

[@signalgirl3563]

I think it depends on how fast you can get a model out and level of detail. With just the free version of live2d I could do some basic designs and once I did it 2 or 3 times I could rig a thigh up model in a single night and I personally would never charge people for that quality. However, the ones with physics and insane rendering on everything that takes months? I can completely understand charging a lot for that. Also a good personality and being entertaining can go a long way often times more than an amazing model and I think there should be more beginner friendly model makers out there that charge less and maybe do a more simple models for those who are just starting out and don't need every aspect of their model to have physics and be rendered amazingly. I personally am an artist and as such am determined to make all of my own assets when I want them.

[@Amaiguri]

I was so grateful -- my rigger Kanijam has tiers where you pay less for her to do a worse job. And you know what? I love that. That's very very helpful to someone like me who wants custom appearance but on a budget

[@lipmae9164]

I'm really glad you mentioned artists with health/life complications, I also wonder about others in my boat here. I don't do VTube models, But I do full character refs! Unfortunately, I've had a good few where they have been on hiatus an unfair amount of time, simply because my health fails me out of nowhere a lot, and that would be why I use the slot system on top of not usually taking *any* money before at least sketch is done, and I prefer to have them pay as things get completed. I unfortunately have one client right now who has been waiting like half a year, admittedly on a very complex character sheet and design, strictly because I am having to play chase with health concerns. I always feel so so bad when this happens, and she's been stellar, but I still feel so bad.

[@chirioneVT]

The only reason Ive managed to have more than 1 model is because i make my own, both model and rigging. I learned live2d just so i could do my own models. It still takes me ages because i dont use the program often. And I dont trust my skills enough to put myself out there for commissions.

[@aroace-energy2597]

I can rig and draw my own models - but I could NEVER do it as part of a career. It's so damn complicated and even PNG models take hours of work to put together, and with PNG models you don't even need to separate as much. Honestly I just have so much respect for artists and modelers.

[@sweetspooky7483]

Life definitly got in the way of my commissions. i made one commissioned Vtuber in total and i was surprised at myself how much i had to delay due to other priorities such as education. but even when i had to delay it i would constantly talk to my commissioner about it and explaining why it was being delayed. thankfully they were super duper kind about it and eventually i got it done after like a few months delay but now i make sure to tell my commissioners that there is the possibility of me delaying such big projects and really make sure they understand that im not delaying it just because of no reason. From then on its up to them if they want to commission me or someone who will probably get it done much faster and i respect either choice

[@euleletsplay]

this is so real. like i dont get how people can explain when they have no idea abt it. i made my own model in 5 hours for a half body with pretty limited possible rigging parts are like : full mouth, hair parts, head, body ( the clothes are part of the body ) , nose, full eyes and eyebrows. thats just it. so yea, pretty limited. ( if you dont rig / not an artist ,or js dont know it might seem like a lot but its really just the most limited opptions for the usual rigging tbh. the rigging also took almost a day.. so yeah-

[@HuuariAlt]

In my time with vtubing, I've made 3 models for myself, art, rigging, and all (with 2 of them being entirely lost, sadly), and the expensiveness becomes understandable so quickly. I've gotten better with each attempt in both the art and rigging aspect, and started a fourth model yesterday.. and it's been a while between my third model and this one, so it feels daunting and I'm ONLY in the lineart phase. But I know I can't afford any assistance, not by a long shot.