Was I Wrong About Ninjutsu?

[@Fede_uyz]

I actually can jump off a 10 story building. Surviving it is a whole another story, but its pretty easy to jump off of it

[@MartialArtsJourney]

😂

[@stonewolf7850]

That's nothing! I can jump HIGHER than a ten storey building. It's a skill my father taught me as a child. Generation after generation has learned this skill from our elders, going back to antiquity. I am now capable of jumping higher than any structure that man has built........... That's because foundations and weight, wouldn't allow a building to jump....IF it were an animate object to begin with, anyway. No building has ever yet out jumped me.

[@seanbrewer1232]

I can survive a 100 ft fall off a 105 ft building. It's true, I would still be alive when I hit the 100-ft mark. Whether or not I survive after the next 5 ft is debatable.

[@Fede_uyz]

@@seanbrewer1232 i can survive the 105ft. The issue is when my body comes to a sudden stop

[@chopsueykungfu]

Jackie Chan has done it!!

[@verybarebones]

Kendo is definitely not for self defense, it's a sport, but ironically it seems to have way more pressure testing than these guys do.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Good point 😊

[@grayalun]

Kendo looks like great fun as well to be fair, smashing each other with a huge stick looks hilarious.

[@stevestrangelove4970]

be careful, in japan is considered bushi, meaning martial art (with all the spiritual bullshit). No jkng but on high level tournaments you can lose a point if you didn't have the right "energy".

[@johnpjones1775]

knowing how to use a stick to hit people isn't relevant to self defense? that's news to me.

[@grayalun]

@@johnpjones1775 Depends how often you carry a stick with you I guess, I saw a book on amazon that was Self Defense for gentleman and ladies and they show self defence with a walking stick.

[@RamseyDewey]

At my old gym, there was a Bujinkan group that trained on the side of the mat once a week. They did their goofy ninja stuff, they had fun, but they were all realistic about what they were doing: it was an attempt at a historical revival rather than a combat training session. Two of them joined my MMA class from time to time. We had some fun talks about the very divergent goals of their bujinkan practice and live combat sports. One day an exceptionally awful Krav Maga instructor came to the gym, wanted to spar with me with his rubber knives. I’m not even a knife fighting guy, and I kicked his butt to a comical degree. My ninja LARPing friends (who were some of the most self aware TMA guys I know) were like “Dude, even we aren’t that awful at knife fighting, and we dress up like freakin’ ninjas for fun.” One of the biggest potential problems with all martial artists is a lack of self awareness. The Krav Maga instructor was possibly the worst knife fighter I have ever seen in my life, but he honestly seemed to believe that he was an expert. Meanwhile the ninjitsu guys were very honest about the fact that they would never get into a fight with 15th century Japanese weapons, it was just a fun thing to practice for them. It there are probably tons of people out there trying to live their live action ninja power fantasy right now. I bet a lot of them have sent you angry emails!

[@TheLuconic]

And those people are the best. The honest ones. Those who lie to themselves were lied to first. Which happens all the time. We need to dispel the lie, so the truth can kick their butts and they can be real with themselves and make changes. Hopefully for the better. Also, I'm not a word magician and sorry if the first few sentences didn't make sense. Hehe.

[@te9591]

I dont see why someone couldnt get into a fight with some of the more practical ninja weapons? Some are very useful, and the sword being the one id use last.

[@te9591]

@@andymax1 you're thinking is good IMO. The sport that i personally might consider to speed up reflexes for a knife fight would be ping pong. Because you're making split second hand and wrist decisions often shadowing someone else's fast twitch moves. I personally think knifes can be just as dangerous if not more dangerous than a pistol.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Awesome story! So true that the self awareness is what matters most and unfortunately too often is missing. I was surprised to not receive many hateful Ninja comments after this video. Surprisingly many of the practitioners agreed with what was pointed out in the video, but after my first Bujinkan video a lot of ninjas were upset 😁

[@dsimon33871]

Ah Ramsey you devil you! Gaslighting the entire Booj because of your goofy Ninjas... And somehow this has to do with a dangerously unstable Krav Maga guy...must be to make such challenges.

[@kradilke]

As a Bujinkan practitioner of 10+ years I agree that pressure testing is definitely needed in the art. My background includes 20+ years of various competitive arts, and I can fairly assess the deficiencies in my current art. Quality control is needed in the system, overall as different schools place emphasis on different things. I do believe that the system is a comprehensive and effective one, however it seems that it's up to the individual, or the few combat-minded teachers out there to uncover the gems within.

[@Liefvikerson]

10 years wasted just to get your ass kicked by a 15 year old. Dork

[@nathangedamke2041]

One thing I will say in Bujinkan's defense after having listened to some of your other videos talking about the distinction between martial arts, fighting, and self defense. I think that I have learned more about self defense in my Bujinkan training than anywhere else. This might be just due to my local instructors, but a lot of class time is spent on situational awareness, dealing with "unfair fight" situations, trying to exploit one another's weaknesses, and how to deal with unexpected situations. Yes, we've even practiced distracting attackers and running away. I do wish they had more intense pressure testing, and think it's a shortcoming of the art, but in my experience at least, the art is not about performing techniques on willing participants. Again, maybe this comes down to my local dojo, but I've seen more focus on true self defense during my time in Bujinkan than in any other martial art. But it's during discussions with the instructors, and when setting the theme for a class or exercise, not when teaching actual techniques, so it is probably not something that is caught on camera very often.

[@maximuswright6865]

I had similar experiences.

[@irkedbutgood]

It's kind of like this. A lot of people got involved in this particular martial art because of adolescent Revenge fantasies. Then some of us who actually studied things like Judo and jiu-jitsu, karate, Judo, jiu jitsu, Tai Chi, escrima.... thought the techniques and the training fun and actually had more applicable to it then most other formulaic belt oriented martial arts. I have known a few people who use the techniques they learn in things like aikido to destroy someone's wrists and elbows when they feel like they can get away with it. But those people are socio or psychopathic and end up getting their pants sued off. The key to successful use of principles end techniques you learn in the Bujinkan require you to fight...and if the techniques you have learned prove advantageous you use them, but most instructors will tell you that if you try to do a direct technique that you learned in a dojo you will lose. We live in the very litigious Society. Most of the techniques in this martial art and a few others will lead directly to harm and/or death. If you are creating a talking shop about this kind of stuff then the question is why? The person who tried to play with the fukuro shinai on the tv show and lost teic should have simply been ferocious and not tried to use a dojo esque technique on the dude. Using split bamboo in a leather bag is like playing with lightsabers. It would have been just safer to throw the sword at him with all possible ferocity. And it is kind of a double standard to think that somebody who has a 13th degree black belt has any more skill than a 5th degree black belt. In most martial arts any dan level over 5 is a social award. I got into martial arts because I didn't want to hurt people if they were bullying me and I had to respond. Especially because I am 6 ft 4 and built pretty solid. By the time I knew most things I would need to know to survive most encounters with people of ill will, I knew enough how to recognize danger and stay away from it. There are many good and important skills you can learn in the Bujinkan if you learn them from the right people. But if people aren't willing to have self-knowledge enough to know the difference between an Uke and an opponent... then there's nothing you can do to help them.

[@Boyetto-san]

Given how much of this comment section is just people jumping to the exact same conclusion that "X is bullshido", I'd like to thank Rokas for the actual nuances he's able to acknowledge here. It's really not the right approach when judging any martial art to just say that the techniques don't work, but that a big part of it is a matter of training with live resistance and pressure. Even the most functional martial art loses effectiveness if it's not pressure tested. The point shouldn't be to dismiss, but to encourage consciouentious practitioners to train in new ways.

[@GSungaila]

I like how the emphasis slightly shifted after the interview with that Aikido instructor who was not pleased with the videos. Rokas stepped up and added more nuance.

[@leoprzytuac3660]

Thanks. That's the kind of comments I love!

[@johnpjones1775]

i've come to a conclusion about 'fake' martial arts in recent years. there's only 2 types of fake martial arts 1. woo woo magic no touch chi BS 2. 'martial arts' styles created by greedy people with very little or no background in martial arts. i heavily consider bunjinkan as the latter, as the image of 'ninja' they portray never historically existed in feudal japan, and only came about in the 50's or 60's.

[@leoprzytuac3660]

@@johnpjones1775 Agree. I'd be great if there was some kind of organization dedicated to study and reenact the real historical practices of the ninja, taking references from the books that we have available today. Something like a shinobi equivalent to HEMA.

[@johnpjones1775]

@@leoprzytuac3660 it would be pretty boring and disappointing to most. the historical ninjas were primarily spies and any martial arts training they got would be last ditch efforts not to be captured, so there'd be very little in the way of weapons training for example.

[@dreadinside654]

Aah...yes..Akban. I almost forgot about the organisation. As an ex Bujinkan practitioner in Malaysia turns Judoka and BJJ practitioner, I can say Akban is the perfect example of how Bujinkan should pressure test their techniques and this is what Bujinkan lacks all this time. Simple to say, "I can't claim the car that I made will run faster like a bullet until I put it to test on the racing track".

[@dianecenteno5275]

Akban is a good example of positive evolution of Bujinkan techniques 👍

[@dsimon33871]

Gee what do you know!!! This guy did painstaking research... every nook and cranny, then made a call appealing to all those Ninjas who could fight and and there it was one KZbin away! Its a freakin miracle!! PS: yes this is one example of a group that pressure tests technique.

[@JamesLeePK]

It's rather strange you mentioned the Malaysian Bujinkan. I am sure you know that the Malaysian side always pressure test themselves. ☺️

[@kaen4299]

Since you're from Malaysia, i'm courious about why you didn't go with Silat? How is it from a realistic point of view?

[@baldieman64]

@@kaen4299 No reply, so I'll take a stab. Silat is a Malay martial art. Malaysian society is quite ethnically stratified between Malays, Chinese and Indians and the Chinese stick to their own systems, and don't tend to train Silat. Wing-Chun seems to be very popular among the Chinese - although it's not usually the Ip-Man lineage. International systems like Bujinkan, TKD, Muay Thai and Hapkido also have a presence. Talking to some Chinese-Malay friends a few years ago revealed that at least in KL, Silat wasn't highly regarded because the demos tend to be very "flowery".

[@UnprofessionalFlicks]

My experience with bujinkan personally was actually pretty good. I had an MMA background before trying it and some of the instructors at my school were active military, and law enforcement. They all swore by the art and I actually felt like bujinkan made me a better martial artist over all. I do think your criticisms are valid, but I think it comes down to inconsistency in the organization. I hope you can find some proof to its effectiveness

[@kenb9065]

Yet another you tube practitioner, MMA has no answers to bujinkan

[@richardcranium5329]

Stopppp,post proof or it didn't happen... No one wants to read your fan fiction

[@ConernicusRex]

You know lots of local police get taken in by mcdojos every day. As far as military? No branch of the U.S. military has ever contracted with a bujinkan organization ever in it’s history. That isn’t to say you don’t know a bunch of non commissioned soldiers who pay their own money to go get ripped off in a strip mall on their own time.

[@ConernicusRex]

@Eliseo Martinez The reason people hate young millenials and zoomers fundamentally is their aversion to knowledge. It's really gross the way you guys refuse to learn anything new on principle.

[@chromenewt]

Same here (wrote in more detail in separate comment). My teacher was a nightclub doorman and while a lot of it was techniques that were very restrained and in good fun, the sessions where it came alive were all about fighting against small weapons. He made everyone put on safety glasses and spar with training knives and pistols full speed once a technique was taught, and the stipulation was that technique was to attempted *somewhere* in that sparring session amongst other moves in a more realistic fight scenario. I suspect my teacher had experienced something and I definitely felt like he was trying to make sure we knew what we were doing if the situation happened to us. He also avoided the subject when we asked why those parts of the session were dealt with differently so can't 100% confirm, but I'm certainly more confident if someone were to threaten me with a knife (guns, dunno.... I hear the first time it's pointed at you it's different, so hopefully I'll never experience that. This is the UK so I already popped that cherry ;D ).

[@AkbanOrg]

Well, we have been discovered 🙂

[@enough_b]

All aboard the hype train for Rokas going to Israel for training and sparring? I’m offering the following right now : round-trip flights from Vilnius to Tel-Aviv go for about 200-250€ through Wizzair. If both parties are interested, I’m putting that amount on the table just to see it happen. I’ve been fascinated by AKBAN’s work for years (seriously, those of you who haven’t, check it out, it’s incredibly thorough and interesting), and I love this channel. I’m serious, of sound mind and sober. I would offer more if I reasonably could.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

@@enough_b Whoa Francesco! That's quite the offer. I'd love to do it. The only hold back right now is the pandemic. But once that eases up we can take a look at it.

[@michael5619]

One of my favorites on KZbin, ninpo done right.

[@AkbanOrg]

@@enough_b sure, he can come. Always welcome.

[@jamesbridges7750]

Deservedly so!

[@DarkfoolDave]

Every Ninjitsu practitioner/instructor I ever worked with that actually knew something was either in the military once, or was taught by someone who was. I can't say anything about Bujinkan as a school, but the understanding I came to know of Ninjitsu is that it's simply not a martial art at it's core. It's a discipline that involves martial arts as part of the training, but it's focus is more about intelligence gathering and being prepared to neutralize any danger (violently or, preferably, otherwise). So critical thinking, slipping in and out of social circles, the stealth stuff, first aid, language learning, all kinda bled with the martial arts training. It's evidenced by KZbin, however, that too great a number of people just wanna play "assassin camp."

[@te9591]

Your closing assessment of ninjutsu is very wise, IMO. And that it's not just tai jutsu when practiced in full effect.

[@original0blace]

Yeah to be honest people training to be assassin/espionage types/spies/Intel gathering if they practice their art properly, there will be no fight, only a successfully completed assignment. If there is a fight then shit has hit the fan and you've fucked up.

[@zombieexecutioner2560]

You are very correct in your assessment. Actual Ninjas, in my opinion, would simply be highly disappointed in many of the "Modern Day Ninja". After all they were basically CIA Agents mixed with Special Forces and Bujinkan is just a modern day Martial Art (MA). We don't really know what they actually were like in the past. Makes you wonder "What was their training really like?"

[@basilistsakalos9643]

In the Bujinkan community eventually after a lot of years there are mostly 3 basic types of practitioners. 1. People whom martial arts are part of their profession, like military, police, bodyguards, bouncers etc. This category also applies to other martial arts as well. 2. People who eventually turn to Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM), due to the knowledge they acquire of the human anatomy and function. 3. People who get involved with the historical side of traditional Japanese Bujutsu, become researchers and possibly publish books on the matter. 4. Another quite rare category are people who get involved with actual spiritual practices like Shinto and/or Buddhism. It is extremely rare to find one who is involved in all 3 or 4 aspects and be really good at them. Obviously the most capable practitioners who can actually use taijutsu as an actual combatives method are mostly the ones from the first category, simply because they "need" to be functional. Taijutsu is a broad encyclopedia of armed and unarmed fighting and otherwise quite useful skills. Training should happen daily in order to develop the proper skills. When most groups I have seen train 1-2 times/week how on earth one expects to actually become even decent in this quite complex art...? Imagine if an MMA practitioner trained in MMA once/week...!

[@alittlepuertoricanboy1993]

@@zombieexecutioner2560 Actually...we DO know NOW somewhat how their training was. And the truth is...the samurai that worked as ninjas were trained like every other samurai, with the exception being that they were generally the more intellectually gifted, which is how and why they worked as ninjas in the first place. You also have thieves and bandits who themselves would temporarily be hired to do ninja work, in exchange for pardons, money, or even being made into a samurai. Obviously, there aren't a tremendous amounts of credible records, and what we have to go off of are mostly military manuals in the Edo period and exaggerated war stories, but we at least have them now in 2022 for the Western public, versus ten years ago even, when modern ninjers would misquote from these texts without ever once actually reading from them.

[@jawz2005]

If you're ever in London we have some Bujinkan schools taught by BJJ blackbelts. Super friendly and respectful they would welcome you and Bujinkan Hammersmith practitioners may even spar with you

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Thanks, I'd be interested to check it out

[@e.apollis2877]

make a video

[@londonbudo4627]

@@MartialArtsJourney We'd love to have you visit us if you're ever in London. We're easy to get to as we're near to Kings Cross station. Just google Bujinkan London and you'll find us. And it would be an interesting exchange

[@magofogo]

I used to practice BUJINKAN. Real life situations differ greatly from training. But in any martial arts training is done the same. What BUJINKAN lacks is quality control and this video makes this a very good point!! I believe outside of Japan every dojo is on its own. Many charlatains emerge as scpecialists and ranking is easily granted. Beyond that, a quality control mechanism such as pressure testing requires a different style of training. It's therefore a matter of how not only BUJINKAN but every martial arts school professes a style. In modern schools martial arts are toned down because we live in times when warriors... true warriors... are those who earn the right to wear badges and uniforms. They're policemen, firefighters and military. Outside these categories we are all civilians and being civil means that fights are ruled outside of law. Defending oneself is different than crude brawling. Martial arts are intended to bring notion of focus, discipline, control and balance. And I repeat, these are different times when the notion to permanentely disable or kill a fellow human is something to be seen as immoral and wrong. I reiterate that schools are not forming killers and self-defense doesn't need much to be effective. I was taught to avoid danger as a prime directive and to fight as a last resort, if unavoidable, only to find an opportunity to escape. Preserve life, guys. To be a ninja is not to sword fight or jump 9 feet high disappearing in a smokescreen. Being a ninja is to go unnoticed and be left alone not attracting wrong attention. So... BUJINKAN is not fake, it's only a style to encourage people to be better and seek enhancement, giving them a notion that it is possible to find a way out in a troublesome situation. MY HUMBLE OPINION ONLY. Be good to each other, guys. Live long. Peace be onto you. Great video by the way!! Cheers!! :)

[@ShaneGoodson]

I train with Bujinkan Israel. The pressure testing thing has always been a part of it here, and in most dojos is done about at the same level as Akban, but yeah broadly you're spot on, big quality control issue and the variation between dojo to dojo is huge. That said, some dojos deliberately focus more on the practice as a preservation of the old techniques and schools and don't claim to be a relevant combat art in the modern environment, which I think is perfectly legitimate.

[@jackduncan4228]

Are you a member of the IDF?

[@ShaneGoodson]

And this is why we can't have nice things Jack

[@jackduncan4228]

Shane Goodson yeah I’ve deleted a couple of comments because I believed that KZbin or this channel had deleted them. I was going to delete them myself. Some opinions don’t need to be published in comments sections. However I will say that those opinions accurately reflect my opinion on Israel and Palestine. You’re right though, those opinions have no place here.

[@nagyzoli]

@@ShaneGoodson Israel has drafting. Aka EVERY citizen between age 18 and 35 has been an active soldier for 3 years somewhere in his life.

[@ShaneGoodson]

I know this is asking a lot considering that this is a youtube video's comment section, but could we just don't do the political shit thing?

[@murilohumbertocmcb]

Imagine rebuilding Bujinkan with pressure testing for it's effectiveness and everything like studying/learning modern stealth in real life situations for example.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

That would definitely be cool

[@ConernicusRex]

No bujinkan would come out of the pressure test; same as aikido.

[@dimitrisgalazis]

@@MartialArtsJourney that's what im planning to do as tkd and ninjutsu student

[@studioseppuku9454]

​@@ConernicusRex as someone who has trained in an offshoot of Bujinkan for many years then pressure tested techniques in my other muay thai training (to see if they can cross pollinate) I can attest that they do work if done properly.

[@richardd4889]

Been there.

[@NinjaKidz]

Loving your videos! Not all martial arts and skills need to be combat effective but they should not promote false claims.

[@Xzontyr]

So I'm curious, and yes I know what you guys are about. Are you saying that when someone signs up at your dojo, you describe to them that the martial art they are about to learn may not be practical in realistic combat?

[@loiten7908]

@@Xzontyr HONESTY will eventually take your further than DISHONESTY

[@MiloTismann]

"Not all martial arts and skills need to be combat effective but they should not promote false claims." ... oh, you mean like the Gracies keep doing ... don't be an ignorant hypocrite ... also, if it's not combat effective, why not allow their weapons and techniques inside the octagon ...

[@MiloTismann]

@@Xzontyr is that all you people care about ... and it IS combat effective, I've done judo for 7 years and I've tried to pressure test jutaijutsu techniques during randori sessions ... wanna know what happened? ... I immediately got scolded for using dangerous and forbidden techniques and was told to stick to judo ... there's your response, so don't give me that "pressure testing" bullcrap because clearly you won't get a chance to even try it out and there's a reason for that ... if you joint-lock someone bfore throwing them, things might SNAP because breakfalling becomes next to impossible ... that was the entire purpose of jutaijutsu: COMPLETE INCAPACITATION of invaders and ennemies ... no competition, so sport, no machismo bullcrap from Brasil ... and even beyond that, if it's not combat efficient, then why not allow weapons inside the octagon because MMA fighters are the first to make a mockery out of Bujinkan people or Kali people or HEMA people but they won't touch a naginata, a chainsickle or even a simple knife with a 10 feet pole ... it's very easy to claim you're superior because you don't see Bujinkan ever used inside the octagon, knowing all too well that you're the ones who deliberately nerf and forbid these skills and weapons to be used in competition in the first place ...

[@MiloTismann]

@user-kj4cu7ye9c the same way all martial arts should be beautiful (hence martial ART) but we all know that ain't the case with mma and bjj and gay shit like that

[@shanedpain7734]

You're on the right path. Anybody doesn't want you questioning stuff has problems... Like a religion. If you're comfortable with your spirit, it doesn't matter if people question your spirit. As soon as people are triggered, they're kinda closed minded, suffering cognitive dissonance. Keep up the good work Rokkas

[@TaoistSwordsman]

@@johnboyjordan1915 Not at all what you question, but how you question. You seem to imply that bias should be taken into account, when in fact you should question all matters equally. Then only the truth will hold up

[@TaoistSwordsman]

@@johnboyjordan1915 Man: An argument isn't just contradiction. Mr. Vibrating: It can be. Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. Mr. Vibrating: No it isn't. Man: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction. Mr. Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. Man: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.' Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is! Man: No it isn't! Man: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. (short pause) Mr. Vibrating: No it isn't.

[@dsimon33871]

A lot of it is the way you question and who you think you are to question. the caveat being... if you are willing to go to a dojo and ask, gain the trust of someone in the art who might be able to shed light on the subject. For example, nagato sensei was a kickboxer before being in the bujinkan and might be a good person to ask. But then: why should anyone want to answer your question? Who is asking? Thats tradition. That is just the way it works with a system that has been around for a bit. martial arts always develops trends and those in the trend always feel entitled. its great to root out the frauds for sure, but legitimate teachers do not necessarily feel an invisible string that pulls them to answer your questions... Takeda Sokuko would allegedlly teach a technique once... that is the mentality one is often dealing with.

[@LachimusPrime]

What is your religion, Shane? Everybody is devoted to something.

[@shanedpain7734]

@@LachimusPrime Taoist Spaghetti Monster Jedi...

[@nathangedamke2041]

As a very low level Bujinkan practitioner, I find that the slow "feeling" training methods commonly used in the art do help to internalize the techniques a lot faster and more completely. It's a training approach that I find most other martial arts are missing, and I have gotten a lot better at my other arts since training Bujinkan. However, you are very much correct that pressure testing is missing from most Bujinkan groups, and probably should be better integrated. Fortunately my school doesn't dissuade it's students from practicing other arts, and even welcomes bringing in tips tricks and techniques from other sources into class. So I use the Bujinkan as a place to train slowly to ingrain effective movements into muscle memory, but train elsewhere such as HEMA to do my pressure testing and drilling.

[@luiscollazo6328]

Bujinkan will always be trash... stick to things that actually work like BJJ, judo, Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling. Stop dressing up as a wannabe ninja and wasting your time with fictional useless techniques. We’ve pressure tested practical martial arts for decades that actually work and have been proven... results speak for themselves. Like the video explains, if bujinkan IS so successful at self defense (as they claim) then we would have seen many proven examples throughout the years... have yet to see any bujinkan members step into the octagon.

[@brandonshukuri6487]

@@luiscollazo6328 Do you live in the DFW area? Texas is a mutual combat state. Randori is not a true pressure test, but actual combat certainly is.

[@MarcosAG90]

@@luiscollazo6328 self defense has nothing to do with any octagon

[@leogets2006]

@@luiscollazo6328 wrist locks,eye gauging,breaking arms spine ect are not rules in the octagon

[@DFMSelfprotection]

@@luiscollazo6328 And there lies your problem - Tai-jutsu is NOT a sport and asking a practitioner to step into the octagon is in reality asking them to step into YOUR world and out of theirs. I've trained in ninjutsu and ran MMA gyms and a self-defence system (I'm nearly 60 years old now) and trained in many other arts - some at high level some not so high. I agree it should be pressure tested - but then so should MMA and BJJ in real live situs. Most gyms DON'T pressure test it in real situs ie against a knife or multiple attackers. And because of that MMA as trained in the vast majority of gyms is NOT a good self-defence system - it's king at combat sports but not self-defence. I used to get my MMA peeps and ask them to use it against me without telling them I had a knife! Inevitably they take me down to the floor but before they realised what was happening I'd have stabbed them in the side half a dozen times. Because they weren't expecting a knife they just thought I was punching them ineffectively in the sides... until I showed them the knife. Their mindset was combat sport, not self-defence, so a knife suddenly coming into the equation didn't register. Another one I did was to walk around while they were training with partners then unexpectedly attack them from behind. OR ask two of them to ground grapple while I'd tell ALL the other students to jump in and start giving a kicking to the guy on top - or the bottom - to show that going to ground as so many BBJ guys want to is not a good self-defence idea! I didn't do this to slag off MMA - I used to run fight shows - I did it to make them THINK outside their box... as well as encouraging them NOT to let martial arts ego get them into dangerous situations.

[@davidantinori4778]

As a long time Bujinkan practitioner myself, I can honestly say that I 100% agree with you. IMO Bujinkan is one of the martial arts for “mind/brain people”. What do I mean by that. Like Aikido, the techniques of Bujinkan are extremely clever. They are often quite complex and exploit very specific weaknesses in the human body. To add to this, they also require a high precision in timing and distancing. This altogether makes the techniques seem very smart, and elegant looking, giving the illusion, that someone physically weaker can win a fight against a much more stronger opponent. But because there is no pressure testing, nobody notices that this is only wishful thinking. So because the techniques are so smart, and that there is no pressure testing, a lot of gentle smart people feel drawn to bujinkan. I have met a fair bunch of Bujinkan people and a lot of them fit these criteria, they often happened to be educated, gentle, and kind people, who seem that they wouldn’t hurt a fly. Adding to that they usually are also not athletic, not that they are fat, but in the sense that they have regular untrained bodies. I myself also meet these criteria. It seems like a martial art for people who seem to unfit and gentle to actually hurt someone. But they all seem to believe (me included until a few years ago) that the mere knowledge and practice of the techniques on a willing partner will give them a fighting chance in a real fight.

[@Alberto-mq3jm]

I've done MMA Muay Thai, karate Bujinkan, military combatives and yes, I wouldn't say Bujinkan is useless, it's good for training biomechanics, some throws have been effective, have I used it in real life? Only once, I used a technique similar to a Kimura to throw someone to the ground and cause pain and it worked, however, I would say, I knew how to make it be effective, thanks to the other martial arts and not exclusively to Bujinkan

[@kenaultman7499]

If your martial art doesn't help you excel at martial combat, it's worthless. It's literally in the name, martial art. The martial, is in reference to martial combat. You might as well take a dance class.

[@davidantinori4778]

@kenaultman7499 Sure. In Bujinkan, the problem is how the teachers teach the art rather than the art itself. If you're interested, I can elaborate.

[@kenaultman7499]

@@davidantinori4778 nah, I'll stick to muay thai. You know, the gold standard of striking for the last 70+ years.

[@davidantinori4778]

@@kenaultman7499 Well, to each their own.

[@DavidDow68]

I hold a 10 dan in the Bujinkan, including training in Japan for 7 yrs in the 90s under Hastumi sensei and Nagato Sensei (and interpreted classes for both). I followed the same path almost exactly as Rokas, ( watch his evolution in his videos) which included going to a Matt Thorton Seminar. Tried to 'alivenize' my dojo but eventually changed to Muay Thai BJJ and some Dogbrothers martial arts training.

[@CJ-nm8sw]

Wait, so did you ditch the Taijutsu altogether?

[@321Tdog]

Do you feel like those Bujinkan years were wasted or they helped in some way? Personal question really

[@DavidDow68]

@@321Tdog No I lived in Japan and had some great experiences I was at one point the main interpreter for Nagato Sensei's Dojo and one many at Hatsumi Sensei's classes.

[@321Tdog]

@@DavidDow68 Wow nice!

[@junichiroyamashita]

​@@DavidDow68what does Taijutsu offer that training in Muay Thai and Judo cannot teach? Genuinely,i don't understand what Taijutsu is. I see striking,grappling,but i don't see anything more than maybe use of metsubushi and shuriken.

[@basilistsakalos9643]

This video is much more decent than the first one, and actually adresses some valid issues of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I had trained Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for about a decade. A moment of re-assessing everything was in about the 5th year when I attended a certain gentleman who among other things holds a PhD in Japanese Culture and History of Martial Arts, is a researcher as well as being a very advanced practitioner. Bujinkan Taijutsu 's core principle is to be able to use the body as "one unit", either with weapons or empty handed, in the principle of medieval "sogo-bujutsu" arts. There are not many dan-holders who can really exhibit such a skill. As such BBT is like a generic encyclopedia of every kind of martial art, unarmed, blade-fighting, stick-fighting, etc. That being said, I do agree that there is an inherent problem in the training methodology and the way the art has spread. For your information, there is a certain way of training which involves pressure testing and is called "randori". Supposedly the practitioner would start practicing randori with gradually increased pressure just before the shodan, and is a way to finetune the techniques learned. Yet again, it is true that some techniques or even the most basic 5 forms, which look very raw and basic, can actually progress to the highest refinement. I had embarked in a similar quest like you, to understand what was "wrong" with the art, because I had been feeling that something is inherently wrong. I agree about the lack of proper methodology of training. Yet you have to keep in mind that old taijutsu/jujutsu probably lacked a proper educational method, that came after Jigoro Kano 's revolutionary approach. Before Kano 's Kodokan it was not expected that all students would learn, on the contrary the master was waiting for a prodigee to pass on his knowledge as a secret treasure. I have experienced weird nage waza that break you in 3 different pieces before you even touch the ground. It is a fact that one just cannot spar those techniques, and they exist. Are they applicable? Sure, against whom? An attacker without formal martial arts training, with some training, a highly trained martial arts practitioner or a trained killer? Obviously you Rokas, have gone beyond the second stage and now have entered the quest of how to deal with highly trained martial practitioners. Trying to apply a ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo to a BJJ black belt is not the same as to apply it against a lowly-trained individual or one without any training at all. I bet you can easily apply them against the first two categories, and now you pursue the way to be able to hold your ground against a trained fighter. Combat sports are an essential part of the journey, there is no shortcut. All really advanced BBT practitioners, even the Japanese, had previous combat sport training, they were already conditioned.

[@seroma3516]

Well said.

[@misterkami2]

Indeed, well said. The gentleman you mentioned, would that happen to have been Kacem Zoughari?

[@tracystoermer9638]

Thank you for so eloquently saying everything I was thinking. I'm so happy Rokas revisited this, and in a much more subtle, thoughtful, and insightful way. My dojo stepped away from Randori momentarily due to COVID restrictions, and my 1st round as a kyu-rank was punishing, and enlightening. It created the space for me to see both my growth and my weak spots, and it inspired me to redouble my training efforts in a more focused way. I totally agree with the quality control issue. It's disheartening to want to excel in an art and see people who supposedly outrank you unable to perform basic things.

[@basilistsakalos9643]

@@misterkami2 indeed 👍

[@misterkami2]

@@basilistsakalos9643 Thank you. I'm training in a small group in the Netherlands and we put a lot of focus on Uke not making it easy for Tori and trying to be as flexible and ready for options Uke has. During the lockdown we worked a lot on bo and bokken technique which can be quite dangerous for incorporating a sparring type of training, but as soon as COVID restrictions allow it, I think we'll have forms of randori again as well. I'm planning to visit one of Kacem's seminars at the end of september.

[@romualdaskuzborskis]

When I was learning Ninjutsu in Lithuania - we constantly practiced endurance and stealth/climbing in live enviroment (camp in forest). Fighting was least part of training. Nor did anybody said "you could kill with it". Zen always told - when faced with danger - run. And we still spared real time.

[@osullibr]

I was involved with Bujinkan for about 9 years. My instructor pressure tested us EVERY SESSION. I would come home from training, bloody and bruised, but feeling alive and clear. My instructor used to say "hard training makes for easier combat", and I agree. My wife thought I was crazy, enjoying the physicality of it, but that truly was its appeal.

[@charleshebert6107]

I guess there is a gap between instructors. I never came home with bruise unless I was willing to get some from my mates (not my instructor lol). It's like everything right, the teacher is a big part of the equation I believe.

[@wtfschindler]

@@charleshebert6107 yeah I’d have to agree - I’ve worked with dozens of instructors over the years and no bruises here. Only LARP injuries..

[@wtfschindler]

Bloody? Do you have examples of PRACTICING techniques that actually broke skin? I find that hard to believe but am open to hearing more...

[@SamtheI]

@@wtfschindler maybe the exercises were very intense. I've practiced Kung Fu Shaolin North style for two years... my instructor didn't care much for teaching me techniques but it was the first time in my life that I actually had abs and was in a great shape condition. Exercises were intense!

[@wtfschindler]

@@SamtheI Guess I was training at the wrong place then. It was straight LARP and I traveled across the western states to more than 15 Booj dojos. All the same. An interesting paradox - completely inconsistent in what they were teaching but how they taught it was always the same: slow, rigid and completely unrealistic. Pressure testing that would be a blood bath; which is why there is no footage of it anywhere.

[@deltrex]

I train Bujinkan and I can say a few things to this: 1: Your instructor makes the difference. There are some guys out there who are really good fighters and even won high level competitions in other sports and also really understand the essence of Bujinkan, but there are (presumably) also people who teach even though they should not. 2: If you want to be good at street fighting and ideally become good (or decent) fast you should train a combination of Muay-Tai (or Lethwei or Kickboxing) and BJJ (or Wrestling). While we also do sparring and include techniques form multiple styles (even Muay-Tai and BJJ) for fast progression in unarmed combat it's better to train other things. 3: Bujinkan does more weapons training than other styles (except styles dedicated to a specific weapon of cause) which can be a great advantage if trained right. 4: We do seminars to practice stealth and escape techniques in team based events. We even practiced swimming fully clothed with tied up hands. 5: A sizeable part of Bujinkan techniques actually train the 1 - 2 seconds before a fight (If practiced right). Literally every single aspect of fighting changes after those seconds. Before a fight your aggressor (or victim, you actually have to train both sides) is not aware of your intentions so a less powerful hidden punch can actually do more damage than a visible more powerful punch. 6: The Historic Samurai and Ninja where full time warriors and would actually train multiple hours every day. Using their techniques (and sometimes even training methods) will not make you a great warrior if you're doing it only two times a week for two hours. If you want to be as good as a real Ninja you will have to put in the time a real Ninja put in to training. 6b: My instructor told me that he once trained throwing shuriken with his off hand every day for 1 hour for a year so he would be able to do it equally well with both hands. If that is not the level of dedication you want to put in you will not become a real Ninja, but you can still have fun learning aspects of a historical combat art.

[@Thunder5963]

In fact Bujinkan is not a historical combat art. It's a version of a Ju-Jutsu like martial art. The claim that it comes from "ninja" is made up and fake! Historically spoken "Ninjutsu" is not a martial art. It was not a form of hand to hand combat. Ninjutsu is something very different. You can read it in the "Bansenshukai", the "Shoninki" and the "Shinobi Hiden".

[@Prockski]

@@Thunder5963 Even the modern idea of "Ninja" is an idealised take on what was simply a role.

[@hattorigonzo]

I spent near 10 years in this martial art, went to Japan twice and recieved my black belt 1st Dan there. Trained in the Hombu dojo and my disappointement was bigger than my expectations. The Hombu dojo was just full of occidental people, I saw poor not realistical techniques, and the worst thing happened was when we were training with bokken (wood swords), mine accidentaly hitted Hatsumi's sensei back on the head, and he just kept walking like nothing happened and nobody saw it. Saw the Sakki test live with that flashy and noisy (yes noisy when it traveled trough the air) stick. I asked myself the point of doing a test with a stick that made so much noise and that you hear it coming. I stopped training in Bujinkan months later after this thing, it was too much for me. OK, I learned some nice things that made me feel like a warrior, but after near 20 years I came to BJJ, started all over, discovered what really was to be beated and discovered that it has NOTHING to do with that ninja LARP. I really hope some pratictionners will open their eyes also. Stop lying to yourselves!

[@Haywood-Jablomie]

that is very similar to my story regarding Bujinkan and Shotokan Karate... I had Dan ranks in both and I was basically beaten up by a Judo green belt. He said he trains Judo at a school that also teaches a weird hybrid Karate style... that style is called SHIDOKAN KARATE. After trying a few classes and getting my butt kicked, I joined up. Shidokan Karate teaches Kyokushin, Kodokan and Kossen Judo, Kickboxing and more. I eventually started competing in Shidokan TRIATHLON tournaments. 25 years later, I now hold a 5th Dan rank in Shidokan Karate and I basically reject my other arts.

[@Ninja9JKD]

It's a historical art that should be respected as it worked very well during feudal combat. Combat has changed and most good Bujinkan practitioners cross train to atleast have a defense against other styles. There are a lot of less than skilled practitioners with inflated ego, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art has a tremendous amount of depth, very layered with practical techniques.

[@Aelea]

My dojo always looked sideways at other ninpo systems. You pinpointed the issue by mentioning Larping.

[@davidheslington4100]

Hattori, Thank you for your comments. I am pleased that you were able to get to training at the Hombu Dojo and attend Soke's classes and that you also recevied your Shodan whilst there. Although 10 years to attain Shodan is an unusally long time, normally we would expect someone to be awared that at 3 years. You are indeed correct in your observation that the Hombu classes are nearly all comprised of western students. I think it is mainly the case that the japanese students tend to train with their own instructors in their 'home' Dojo's so to speak, and may not feel themselves ready to train at the Hombu, where as with the western students, we might only get one trip a year, so we thend to grab as much training time as possible, hence the bias in numbers of western students. I do concur with your vieew that there are many poor techniques seen, but I feel that is perhaps due to the standards of the visting students. Many times i have been there and have trained with both visting Kyu & Dan grades that have appalling basics! I had one instance where I was Nagato Sensei's Uke for the first half his class and was then called back out again during the second half, as his new Uke, when asked to punch him, merely exteneded his arm with no attempt to hit Sensei. Sensei called me back out, I punched at him, with such intent that it drew got gasps from people there, and just managed to touch hs jaw. Needles to say, i went flying as he applied the technique. But he knew that i would try my hardest to hit him, hence him calling me back out by name. Please dont worry about hitting Soke with a bokken, you are probably not the first one to have done that. And in what way would you expect him to react? Fly into a rage for striking him, performing some technique on you as punishment? It is training, nothing more, nothing less, I'm sure it happens all the time. I reacll Soke saying at the Hombu one time, "just because I am head of nine schools of martial arts, it does not mean I am invincible. A five year old child could kill me". If you are refering to the large gold shinai that tends to be used be certain large person, then yes, we are all aware of that one. A lot of us do not take that person seriously. With regards the noise, then if you are trying to move when you hear the Shinai coming, it is already to late, and you are unlikley to move in time. There was a team of academics from one of the major Tokyo universities that came to the Hombu to conduct test on the Sakki test. They concluded that if you were listening for the sound of the shinai, you would not be able to move in time, due to the tiem taken for the sond to reach the ear and then for the brain to process the information and then make the consious decsion to move the body. I have seen some questionable passes myself. The best passes are when the person moves just before the shinai comes down and the expression on the face of the person giving the test changes, as they project the killing intention. That is the real test, felling the intent to kill you, not avoiding the stick. If people think it is the latter, they are already to late. Perhaps the the hardest thing in the Bujinkan is to find a good teacher outside of Japan. They are out there, but you have to really look for them. The best ones tend not to put stuff up on platforms like KZbin. You have to almost find them by word of mouth / personal recomendation. For many of us, it is not about a "Warrior / Ninja lifestyle", it is more a study of how the body moves and works and how we can best exploit that, and that takes many years of training and learning. For the vast majority of us, this is a hobby, we are not looking to make a living from this, we have work/home-life considerations to balance. Maybe in time you might come back to Bujinkan training? And hopefully if you do, you will gain a greater understanding of what it can offer after studying other martials arts. Best of luck in your training :)

[@cranom5616]

@@Ninja9JKD I agree.

[@RamseyDewey]

4:00 kicking the knee is not illegal in MMA. It happens all the time. The rules of MMA are much less limiting than most people seem to think. I get comments on my channel constantly from TMA practitioners who make up random UFC rules that simply don’t exist and say things like “well, it it wasn’t for those rules, I could squash any UFC fighter!”

[@aarr8936]

I've always been wondering if they'll be banning kicks to the knee. I figured if we eventually see it end some title fight with a R1 injury we would see this change, but it's been in the sport so long and rarely seems to cause injuries (I think it maybe messed up Whittaker's knee iirc? Cant think of anyone else.) Funny how in some martial arts, kicks to the knee are seen as especially deadly, but in real combat it actually doesn't seem to get much mileage!

[@davemeads859]

Lol I was just thinking about your there's the rules and then there's the rules video man you pop up everywhere

[@eclipsewrecker]

Attacking the eyes, groin, and small joints happens in mma, and wrestling commonly. It isn’t consistent in changing the outcome of the match nor the outcome of the move. So, high risk of damage with inconsistent effectiveness. I’ve been damaged in all three areas while wrestling, playing football, and surfing. It had never stopped me from finishing what I was doing. I’m not known for toughness. I was focused on my task. Anecdotal.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Speaking of small joints... There was a story recently in an MMA match where an MMA fighter's finger got severed and he didn't even notice it and kept fighting.

[@eclipsewrecker]

@@MartialArtsJourney “adrenaline is a hell of a drug.”

[@kvfk8917]

I think that for every offense/attack/technique, there is a perfect defense. And for every defense, there is a perfect offense. For every move, the other guy can also do his move. That is your move? This is my move for your move. I take the approach like in chess, a perfect chess game will always result in a draw. That's why if someone makes a huge mistake/blunder in fighting or chess, it will end to them getting knocked out or checkmated in chess. If they don't, the fight will continue and continue and continue and no win or lose will be given meaning a draw. Like in sparring, a fighter attacks with a technique, but the other guys defends well with his technique to the opponents technique and might punish or counter attack his opponent's attack and so on. Since none of them made a mistake, there's no knockout and the sparring continues until the round is over. That's why I think no one (1) traditional martial art technique or attack or defense will work because there will always be a follow up to it and it will end in a draw, meaning, no right or wrong, win or lose technique. And all these pressure testing works because of the concepts I said because they don't stop. So it depends on the technique and how well the practicioner applies the technique vs another guy. If the other guy doesn't have any technique or not a good practicioner then he will lose to the other guy. That's why I think the martial arts world is so divided and there's always arguments with no correct or factual answer because they don't know or understand the concepts that I said. So it should be analyze move for move, this ur move how good? then i do this to your move how good? then also analyze who won the match so it should be a fight but obviously everything is taken into account like speed, strngenth, body or whatever, so being able to take those out of the equation and isolate things will make the test accurate. Like wear weights that will make both of you move the same speed. All these I compared to chess which is a game on strategy n war. Like the chess engine, they have an evaluation bar on whose winning and move for move if it's good, a blunder, mistake.

[@kvfk8917]

@@MartialArtsJourney I think that for every offense/attack/technique, there is a perfect defense. And for every defense, there is a perfect offense. For every move, the other guy can also do his move. That is your move? This is my move for your move. I take the approach like in chess, a perfect chess game will always result in a draw. That's why if someone makes a huge mistake/blunder in fighting or chess, it will end to them getting knocked out or checkmated in chess. If they don't, the fight will continue and continue and continue and no win or lose will be given meaning a draw. Like in sparring, a fighter attacks with a technique, but the other guys defends well with his technique to the opponents technique and might punish or counter attack his opponent's attack and so on. Since none of them made a mistake, there's no knockout and the sparring continues until the round is over. That's why I think no one (1) traditional martial art technique or attack or defense will work because there will always be a follow up to it and it will end in a draw, meaning, no right or wrong, win or lose technique. And all these pressure testing works because of the concepts I said because they don't stop. So it depends on the technique and how well the practicioner applies the technique vs another guy. If the other guy doesn't have any technique or not a good practicioner then he will lose to the other guy. That's why I think the martial arts world is so divided and there's always arguments with no correct or factual answer because they don't know or understand the concepts that I said. So it should be analyze move for move, this ur move how good? then i do this to your move how good? then also analyze who won the match so it should be a fight but obviously everything is taken into account like speed, strngenth, body or whatever, so being able to take those out of the equation and isolate things will make the test accurate. Like wear weights that will make both of you move the same speed. All these I compared to chess which is a game on strategy n war. Like the chess engine, they have an evaluation bar on whose winning and move for move if it's good, a blunder, mistake.

[@eclipsewrecker]

@@kvfk8917 technique, tactics, and strategy tend to affect individuals differently. As far as I understand, “work” tends to imply efficiency and consistency

[@drfistface]

I remember in the Wolfman video he said that you were not qualified to have the opinion that Akido was not effective. I thought it was odd that you did not push back on that more. Aside from your very obvious Akido background you had presented very clear criteria for your satisfaction. I know very little about cars but I know when mine is not performing well or doing what I want. The idea of pressure testing is a constant point with popular youtube martial arts celebrities and I think it is strange that so many schools still look at it like this recent trend that will die off just as soon as that fly-by-night UFC thing dies down. In my head some of this has to be the martial artists protecting themselves because they know they are wrong and some of it is them learning that being offended and devolving into insults is just a reflection of personality deficits. I would go even further than you and say that I want to see it have success in the cage. The last time Ninjitsu was effective in MMA was all the back to Steve Jennum in '94. You would think they could have someone stand up and say that some part of their fight was won due to Ninja training

[@BFGalbraith74]

I had the same reaction... I think we will know how much Aikido Rokas can use after he studies Tomiki and Christopher Hein's variation. I suspect the Aikido kata he's already mastered will help him in Tomiki and Heinkido even though most Aikido doesn't have the free sparring needed to make the training functional.

[@PlanesWithHotas]

I did not expect a clip from Master Ken's video in this vid lol.

[@GuitarsRockForever]

Master Ken is awesome. The best of best.

[@Ghost01702]

@@GuitarsRockForever bujinkan would be much more effective if they remembered to re stomp the groin.

[@BradyHansen81]

Something you need to keep in mind; the people that post videos to the internet are not usually very good and are using flashy movements to attract students because it “looks cool.” Those of us who have used this art in real life know it works and could care less what people on the internet think. Aka, people that can actually do the art don’t share it publicly. For the most part

[@dsimon33871]

Finally someone who gets it. Like we have a compelling interest in opening up how we test and use something because some guy who can't even be bothered to check sources carefully puts the word out he wants proof... LOL.

[@OTSOBerg-pn5gm]

Then how did you learn if the real guys are super secret? You just have to be born near one?

[@BradyHansen81]

@@OTSOBerg-pn5gm who said they’re super secret? Keeping to themselves and expecting students to find them is part of the proof you actually want to train. This isn’t McDojos. You’re not going to find a legitimate Bujinkan instructor on every corner. I drive 2 hours 30 minutes round trip to get to my class. I got lucky because my teacher is one of Dale Seago’s senior students. People that really want to learn this art that can’t find a teacher move to Japan. If you aren’t willing to sacrifice then you won’t make it through the training.

[@kotaroatani9800]

@@BradyHansen81 I trained with Dale Seago back in the day, when I had vacation in San Fran and I lived on the East coast, he is a very good Instructor in the Bujinkan.

[@irinaivanovic9792]

Finally, someone who said the truth. We do not go online and make cheesy videos bragging about how great this particular art form is. There is reason is is so unique from others. It's not flashy and is definitely more internal than external. The instructor I had, was so hard to find, I had to dig and dig online just to find him and he was the only one within a 40 mile radius of my home who taught this art form. There were THREE students in our "class." He was 10th dan and was so thorough in his training that I gained so much out of it. That's the thing that someone else mentioned; Bujinkan is NOT a McDojo's that you see all over the place like corporations. It's not easy to find this training at all. You're lucky if you do. We would train outside in the grass sometimes, during sunset, sometimes in the back of a college gym after classes were finished. It made the experience so much more meaningful because the environment was not fancy, decorated and ...commercialized. It was how ninja back in ancient times practiced this art form.

[@baileykuch3302]

Wow it's sad how our community has fallen... I've been training under a 5th dan black belt in Bujinkan for almost a decade now and even after growing up, watching all these videos I still practice because I believe it actually is extremely effective. But the problem as you said is the quality control, so you get instructor's that just have no clue how to train or what they're even talking about. But I know for a fact if you happened to be in the central Washington area, my teacher would love to show you a couple practical techniques that do actually apply in the real world. But unfortunately I just saw this now and if you were still maybe interested in seeing at least what my teacher has been offering in class for years I would love to no bs send you videos, and happily take what you will from them. Because it's really a lot different then any of the clips you at least put on this video. But great video! I'm happy I stumbled across you and I think you sold another sub my dude✌🏽

[@Baalaaxa]

It's "dan", not "don". Just saying.

[@AllanBaumer0]

I feel like there's a theme of some schools valuing practical combat tests and others valuing tradition/theory.

[@j.murphy4884]

Not necessarily, Muay Thai has strong traditions but is one of the most pressure tested and effective striking arts. Appealing to tradition and (often spurious) history just happens to be a very effective cover for bullshido.

[@loiten7908]

There is only 1 way "the traditional way" NINJUTSU was created to ASSASSINATE without being seen heard or smelled you can pressure test a NINJA but you won`t win and he won`t fight you face to face if he you corner him he will use hidden weapons like powerful tranqulizer needles or even guns knives if his life is threatened over hand to hand but he will commonly poison you when you are off guard usualy done when you sleep this is basic NINJUTSU practice if the school is traditional NINJA is still used today as silent ASSASSINS for MAFIA and dirty CORPS..

[@MarQui988]

This time you succeeded, as a bujinkan student at the time you said "quality control" I couldn't agree more

[@WiseOldBill]

Never expected one of my comments to sneak into a video of yours, appreciate the nuance Rokas you're doing good work

[@andyduong5587]

Been seriously waiting for this video! As a Bujinkan practitioner and instructor, there's been far more than a handful of occasions where I questioned exactly how effective the techniques are. Practicing them on their own is all fine and good, but promoting it as something it's not is definitely not good.

[@DouglasEKnappMSAOM]

Really? Do you really know your basics? Can you use 45 degree movements like repeated ichimonji to control an attack? If not get out there and start having a real boxer attack you and learn to use your basic movements!!!! The Ryu katas are for people that can already move and punch at a basic level. This stuff WORKS, you need to make it real! Slow movements with relaxation are great to about 5 kyu but then you need to speed it up and really use it! Talking full speed, repeated attacks. Start with the kick boxer just doing one simple attack right and left until you can handle it with ease and then slowly start mixing it up. We have stuff that one else has seen and it is good stuff!

[@alexrain1188]

I’m a 5th degree Bujinkan guy. I’ll tell you this. The system works but they don’t teach you the real technique. You have to just see it. It’s how they see the real ones. Also, our students tend to be second rate. Kind of like soccer, the great athletes are simply going to other sports. My last trip to Japan, I got into a full fight with a “13th degree” and I wiped the floor with him. So yeah, like you said, we lack a lot of quality control. Great points on your video.

[@DouglasEKnappMSAOM]

Hatsumi has said many times that he does not care about belts, rank or quality control. This is the way of the bujinkan. The are some great teachers and a lot of bad ones.

[@nunyabizz8730]

Great honesty.

[@ThebreadofAnarchy]

This is true. You are learning concept in the bujikan. With some real experience and an eye for technique it has a lot of potential!

[@superiorhema]

That HEMA clip is less of a "technique" and more just attacking. "Schiessen" or shooting the point. Equivalent of claiming a punch. And the guard is also in every sword system in Europe for a millennia. You can thrust from anywhere. And he also, is specifically doing it in a "german" way, not functional with Japanese Tachi. Sword rotated, thumb on the blade, and using the cross. With a round tsuba all those details would be modified. So definitely European and not Japanese even though Bujinkan I'm sure has thrusting, and that guard.

[@MrAsdf5000]

Good to see you guys clarifying! I'm a big fan

[@superiorhema]

@@MrAsdf5000 Thanks, glad to hear it:) It would be cool, but I'm sure there's some bigger clubs that would be better at representing HEMA.

[@vincentlee7359]

@@MrAsdf5000 Rokas does HEMA content with Skall!?

[@timhema5343]

Totally agree. It's a very standard thrust from "Alber" guard, or "porta di ferro mezzana". This kind of thrust is in every system of european longsword of medieval and renaissance periods...

[@anautisticswede6748]

@@superiorhema It would be fun if he contacted Dennis Ljungqvist as I am sure he would be happy to at talk about HEMA in a intervju. 😁👍 And don't think that just becouse you are from a small club you are not the right persson to talk. It's about the quality of fencers not quantity 😁👍

[@Polentaccio]

I've been critical of Rokas being a bujinkan practitioner but he's been fair here and his reasoning is logical. Based on what he has seen and has been submitted to him, what other conclusion can he make.

[@MacCionnaith]

He is not being logical he is looking for something the Buge does not deliver. It's not about brawling or competitions. If you get hit you die, you practice this you learn how easy it is to hospitalise a person. It's a traditional martial art taught in the traditional way. Most importantly it's a gift to us westerners to learn and experience. Kopojutsu, koshijutsu, yoshin Ryu jutaijutsu etc are the grand daddy's of combat sports. When it was all about combat and not about sport. What you see in video is training not testing. And I m 99% sure this choom has made up his mind long before he set about his shallow assessment and presented his thoughts to the mob.

[@Polentaccio]

@@MacCionnaith nonsense . I have been in the bujinkan for 20 years and this line of thinking usually comes from practitioners who look down at MMA calling it a sport and thinking those skills don't transfer to one on one combat if needed. The best bujinkan practitioners I have met had a background in other arts. A lot of the Kata/schools were designed for use in armour where mobility was limited and reaction time is slower. There's no such thing as death blows or being killed by a strike unless you have a weapon in your hand. Samurai refined these techniques through hard bokken sparring and through resistance or real experience. Don't think they weren't stomping each other's heads into the ground when all else failed. You seem to have a romanticized idea of the art and I am not sure if it is because you have been told this by other instructors or if it is wishful thinking. No amount of fingers in the eye will work unless you understand the principles of fighting on your feet and off your back. All Rokas is saying is show me that you can handle the basics before I can believe that XYZ will work. He's right to ask those questions given the large sample footage we have of real fights on KZbin. Not sport fights, real attacks.

[@MacCionnaith]

@@Polentaccio Thanks for listening Polentaccio. And fine BBT will have to adapt if it is to prove itself to the outside world. The nagewasa techniques, whether they are effective or not are all intended to damage not hurt - can you agree on that? You're not supposed to get up from them. On this basis it's all talk, it is what it is. I'm too old for sparing now.

[@vincentlee7359]

@@MacCionnaith Your counter reply is screaming: "Fine, You're right since YOU have TwEnTy YeArS of EXpEriEnCE. BUT I'm still right are you aren't so AGREE with ME." You seem to be already set in a fixed closed minded way of thinking. No point in trying to argue or persuade you.

[@loxley75]

@@MacCionnaith OK so I trained for a while in Bujinkan and yes, its true the moves are designed to damage etc. The problem is not that the moves don't work its that they simply would not be able to be applied in most situations. Even someone with many years of Bujinkan training, had they not ever been in a position where they have undergone hard resistance training and sparring would be completly lost the moment a real fight broke out. Dealing with a resisting opponent would absolutely throw them and in a split second they would be getting pummeled by blows which they have never experienced before and that would be the fight over for them. Knowing thousands of Bujinkan teqniques that you can do in your sleep simply wont prepare you for combat. There is a huge difference between guys that have done Bujinkan trainining either combined with or from combat sports and the guys that have gone up the ranks soley focused on Bujinkan even simply in levels of strength and fitness.

[@davec5310]

Well said! I did Bujinkan for a while any many of the techniques are totally legit. However, it is obvious that someone got these techniques from other sources and combined them into a different system that is not totally practical or effective.

[@erichquinn5354]

Bujinkan taijutsu gave me some skills at a young age to quickly apply techniques to get out of a few situations where I was being bullied I hit hard and fast to my opponents soft targets, this gave me a chance to escape.

[@a-blivvy-yus]

I've sparred with kendo practitioners and learned things from some of them. I wouldn't call kendo an *ALL ROUND* practical style but it does enough pressure testing for at least its more experienced practitioners to understand the techniques they're using in realistic terms. My first experience in weapon fighting was LARP, so not the most realistic, but I learned from guys there who studied HEMA and other more serious martial arts. I moved on to HEMA as well as the related field of medieval re-enactment fighting and one of the things that stuck with me through both of those experiences was an idea that fencing is *PARTICULARLY* impractical in the world of combat sports because they work in straight lines and never learn to sidestep. I eventually encountered a situation where I had a chance to test this. A couple of guys walked up on me teaching a friend about LARP fighting, and sat down nearby to watch - we were in a public park so this wasn't exactly unusual. I openly mentioned my bias in advising this friend to not be so focused on linear movement "like in fencing" and the younger of the two guys watching us stood up and started to argue that fencing isn't all about linear movement. I surprised him by responding politely with "that's what I've been told, but I'm willing to be taught different" and he asked if he could demonstrate. He admitted to being relatively new to fencing, so I had him spar against my friend, who beat him quite easily. There were HINTS of the kind of movement I had claimed fencing doesn't use, but his movements showed quite a linear approach to fighting, and the obvious bias toward thrusting over cutting. I asked about the weight of the weapon he was sparring with and he said "it's the same weight as what I'm used to but it feels heavier when actually using it" - which I was able to explain. Most swords have a balance point close to the hilt, and the rapiers and epee commonly used in fencing particularly so, while the LARP weapons they were using are balanced higher up the blade. This made the test somewhat unfair because he was used to a weapon which moves differently, and not experienced enough to compensate, so I suggested that if he was able to ask a more experienced student - or his instructor - to spar with us, I'd be interested in seeing the difference that experience makes. At which point, the other guy admitted to being his instructor, and beat me quite convincingly while clearly showing that he knew how to move in all directions while fighting. Found out after getting beaten that he not only had several medals from international competition but had previously competed in the olympics. And was absolutely chill and humble about it, which impressed me even more than what I learned about fencing that day.

[@amosmj]

I think that I can see the benefits of pressure testing your criticisms in live debate have had on how you build your arguments. You’ve become much more explicit and concise.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Good point Mike 🤔 Now that you said it - I think you are right. Thanks

[@GSungaila]

Exactly!

[@johnming73]

@@johnboyjordan1915 No, pressure sparring. That's what becomes clear from his videos. There are many martial arts who claim they do "sparring", but the weak point, is that the opponent cooperates, instead of giving actual resistance and pressure. So it's the quality of sparring what is decisive.

[@venomjiu-jitsu5067]

@@johnming73 That's a very important part of the equation but you still need an art that is made up of techniques that work. Some arts have a heavy number of techniques that are low percentage or out right don't work even with pressure testing.

[@SpectralSky]

This kind of hanging questions about the lack of pressure testing, critical examination of the techniques, and clear training methodology, led me to leave Bujinkan after 11 years of training and join Akban. Every time I sparred with friends from combat sports, I had to fall back to my karate training to stand my ground, buffled at how it is possible after so many years of training to not be able to bring my ninjutsu training to bear during sparring. The differences between the two organizations are staggering, with prime among them the transparency of what is being taught and how it applies vs resistance in Akban. Everything we do in Akban is online and free for everyone to watch and critique. As Yossi often says, we are custodians of the art. I would add that we are also researchers and tinkerers, with each Akban dojo functioning with considerable freedom - more like an open source project comprised of many independent laboratories, than a "feudal" top-down "kingdom". In any case, this is not a critique of Bujinkan or any other art - effective, non effective, etc. It wasn't for me, but apparently it is for other people - and that's fine. Life is short, everyone should do what their hearts desire; there is no time for anything else.

[@vincentlee7359]

There is a reason Akban isn't apart of the Bujikan organization...and for good reason.

[@SpectralSky]

@@vincentlee7359 Indeed. That said, I feel that I should point out that Yossi sensei has never spoken with anything but the utmost respect for Hatsumi sensei and his expertise. I cannot claim the same restraint, but it has certainly given me pause that my teacher holds Hatsumi in such high regard.

[@pablobujin]

Hi. I'm a 6y Bujinkan student from Brazil, just trying to reach my 2nd dan. There are dojos and dojos. My dojo use to make sparring sessions when we are studying techniques, but rarily we make "official" randori sessions despite it's common to explore a lot techniques variations. But we do use to apply some reality in the trainings (which we call to train with sincerity). Not everyone does that, and not all dojos do that. Also some techniques we really cannot apply to the end (such as some neck break stuff, eyes penetration, real ball kicks,...). There are even some buyus who don't accept to feel a minimum pain (such as when we use kyushos to provoque natural body response due to pain). When we go outside, we just respect and follow the house's rules, but always the experience comes with a gain regardless of the methodology. I personally like more when "I feel more". I'd say that there are some awesome teachers, some not so good teachers, and some awesome trainining friends (buyus) and some not so awesome buyus. Regardless of it, there are many who train with sincerity, with objectives ranging from health, mind clearness, to personal protection. In my case as longer I as I kept going I always feel I was not the best buyu, but I am still in the line since the start. Anyway, IF some day I receive some authority in my dojo I'd be honoured in receiving you (or anyone else interested in) for a mutual exchange of experience; it may sound like another text far promisse to include in your list, sorry for that. I've done in the past some small mixed sessions with bjj and capoera practioners in a friend dojo, and it was quite cool.

[@PlatinumDragonProductions999]

A few thoughts occurred to me while watching this: The aims in a "ring" fight versus a real-life scenario are completely different. In a ring fight, your goal is to incapacitate your opponent, but barring that you can "score points" and barring that, you can "make it to the bell" to rest and regroup your strategy. In a real-life scenario, your attacker is trying to incapacitate you at all costs, in the shortest amount of time. There is no bell, no do-overs, you have a few minutes to incapacitate your opponent or at least make 'em want to run. All that is to say that training to be a great fighter has differences from training to defend oneself. Also, in a ring fight, you can feint and "discover" what your opponent's plan might be. IRL, you don't have that opportunity, so your plan has to be as efficient as it is effective. 11:36 I'm big on the idea of "red team" trying to break an idea or technique, not just in fighting, but in many areas, and in fighting, I think this is the best. One has to constantly be prepared, honing, and discarding what doesn't work. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your thoughtfulness and questioning everything on this channel; thank you for the good work :-)

[@luckbuch]

Applause to this comment

[@lewisb85]

"But if it doesn't work in a controlled environment it will not work in an uncontrolled one"- Tim Kennedy (ufc figher/army ranger-someone who has been on both ends of the fighting spectrums),this excuse is complete rubbish. If you can't fight clean fighting dirty will only give you the thinnest of advantages, its like saying "you put me in a rear naked im going to kick you in the nuts to stop you" someone with experience with BJJ and Judo all kicking them in the nuts will do is cause them to pile on even more pressure. I say this as a BJJ/Bujinkan practitioner. the "you need rules" to fight excuse which some martial arts use to diminish combat sports is complete BS!

[@DavidDow68]

@@lewisb85 Jocko Willink a former Seal also does BJJ

[@sensam6155]

Total RUBBISH, my man. Take a Muay Thai fighter who's sport doesn't allow for groin kicks and pit him against a Bujinkan practitioner, make them fight after telling them that groin kicks are perfectly legal, who do you think will make his opponent's balls explode? Take a boxer who's sport doesn't allow for eye pokes and pit him against a Bujinkan practitioner, make them fight after telling them that eye gouging is perfectly legal, who do you think will rip the eyeball out of his opponent's sockets? Take a BJJ player who's sport doesn't allow for testicle grabbing/smushing and pit him against a Bujinkan practitioner, make them fight after telling them that testicle smushing is perfectly legal, who do you think will have to wash their hands to get the bloody mess off? Fighting dirty against a trained athlete is a great way to make sure you PAY for your mistake dearly.

[@3tomnguyen797]

@@sensam6155 that’s a stupid argument u assume a Muay Thai, BJJ guy in a street fight would still follow their rule set

[@chromenewt]

I did Bujinkan for a short while many years ago and really enjoyed it. This was before youtube had content like yours so picking a martial art was mostly choosing from what is available locally and recommendations from friends. Our teacher was actually a nightclub doorman so while we learned a wide variety of the techniques the ones where I felt it was most effective was the ones that were feasibly practiced a lot by him during his job (so the evasion and pressure/restraining). I have fond memories but fully acknowledge your points. Weapons training was very "unalive" and cautious with the exception of when we did disarming techniques against smaller weapons, when I feel that perhaps our teacher had genuine passion in making sure that we knew what to do in a real situation. That's when we got some proper bruises and went fully alive with sparring (with safety glasses for all, bless him). I got the feeling he had personal experience of concealable weapon antagonism, either against him or someone close, so with those sessions we left aching and bruised and just a little more able to defend ourselves. A bit rambly but the point I'm making is that I feel it's entirely dependant on the teacher. Some do it for money, some do it for status/narcissism, and some rare gems teach because they care/don't want something to happen again, and those I feel are the ones where the style isn't the most important part. Rather than the martial art be put on the pedestal, it's the teacher with the style being the tool they use as a great teacher. Would I say he could beat any other martial artists? No, but in a real life scenario I would definitely place my bets on him to minimise the potential harm to those around him. Tl;dr, Hard agree that Bujinkan fails with the "best/most effective" martial art in a general sense, but would contest if the question was rephrased to something like "is it the best tool for the right person under certain circumstances", and in that I think Bujinkan has its place.

[@irinaivanovic9792]

Agreed! That last paragraph 100%.

[@andrewboardman2654]

Yeah, the moves themselves might work, as they are from Japanese jiu jitsu mostly, but they def take making your own stuff up to a hole nother level, and will just combo nonsense together on an unmoving opponent, saying the first counter would stun them or whatever haha. I trained at a school for a bit, and a partner literally got mad at me for not just throwing myself to the floor with a wrist throw. That is how little they pressure test lol. I mean, get frustrated at yourself for not doing the technique right, and at the other ppl for letting you believe u did really know how to do it.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

👌

[@kvfk8917]

@@MartialArtsJourney I think that for every offense/attack/technique, there is a perfect defense. And for every defense, there is a perfect offense. For every move, the other guy can also do his move. That is your move? This is my move for your move. I take the approach like in chess, a perfect chess game will always result in a draw. That's why if someone makes a huge mistake/blunder in fighting or chess, it will end to them getting knocked out or checkmated in chess. If they don't, the fight will continue and continue and continue and no win or lose will be given meaning a draw. Like in sparring, a fighter attacks with a technique, but the other guys defends well with his technique to the opponents technique and might punish or counter attack his opponent's attack and so on. Since none of them made a mistake, there's no knockout and the sparring continues until the round is over. That's why I think no one (1) traditional martial art technique or attack or defense will work because there will always be a follow up to it and it will end in a draw, meaning, no right or wrong, win or lose technique. And all these pressure testing works because of the concepts I said because they don't stop. So it depends on the technique and how well the practicioner applies the technique vs another guy. If the other guy doesn't have any technique or not a good practicioner then he will lose to the other guy. That's why I think the martial arts world is so divided and there's always arguments with no correct or factual answer because they don't know or understand the concepts that I said. So it should be analyze move for move, this ur move how good? then i do this to your move how good? then also analyze who won the match so it should be a fight but obviously everything is taken into account like speed, strngenth, body or whatever, so being able to take those out of the equation and isolate things will make the test accurate. Like wear weights that will make both of you move the same speed. All these I compared to chess which is a game on strategy n war. Like the chess engine, they have an evaluation bar on whose winning and move for move if it's good, a blunder, mistake.

[@vorrnth8734]

Who is "they"?

[@andrewboardman2654]

@@vorrnth8734 Bujinkan members and teachers.

[@Tletna]

@@kvfk8917 Actually, the player who moves first is at advantage in a chess match (which is coincidentally the same for most fights). Also, in chess, other than who moves first, it is a level playing field as all the pieces are equal, a queen is a queen, a knight is a knight etc. However, in real life fights (sports/controlled or street fights/war, either one) the stronger person, person with more reach, or more agile and athletic person with better response time will win over the opponent unless he makes a huge mistake or his opponent does something to throw him off. So, while I believe your comment has some merit, I must humbly disagree with it for the above reasons.

[@dingomilo984]

To learn ninjutsu and teach it like a effective art like you suggested with pressure testing + stealth (also parkour maybe?) seems like a unique chance of bringing a valid and strong style/practice to the light. It's a VERY interesting idea and whoever do this could make history for sure. Would you do it? 👀 haha Anyway can't wait for the next videos on this very interesting topic 👋

[@Budoray85]

Another great video. As an instructor in a number of systems some that many of the techniques are not practical (but fun to do) and some that are very proven ( like Muay Thai and submission grappling) in the end you train what you enjoy but don’t get to cocky lol Remember “comparing martial arts styles is a mindless debate because fraudulent techniques and ideologies are rampant amongst all of them “ - Robert Bussy

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Good quote

[@skepticalfox27]

Everytime a system claims to be affective without videos I remember the Aurora borealis meme from the Simpsons. "Is your style effective?" "Yes" "May I see it?" "No"

[@TaoistSwordsman]

Terrific analogy with the Spiked fence Rokas, it captures the essence of dangerous sense of a false bravado in the TMA community

[@QuebecSystema]

Bujinkan as the same problem as all classical martial arts, only Kata's, no Randori (pressure testing). Like Roka said, the issue is with the many claims of self-defense efficiency of these martial arts. Not saying that the biomechanics of the technics is no legit or real but more in the claim of being efficient in a self defense when not tested... Jigoro Kano solved that problem with the creation of Judo. Same for the Gracies with BJJ. As of a ex-practitioner of Bujinkan and Systema, your analysis and critic is fair! Keep up the good work!

[@rnin1754]

BJJ was just Kano Jujutsu

[@stevestrangelove4970]

it has a even worst issue than classical martial arts, because its not even classical, it was designed in the 70s as a response to milk the ninja movies fandom. the whole tradition is fake and it has been proven because the actual sources of "ninjutsu" mention nothing of what they do, and because it has been proven that the whole legacy appeared from nowhere.

[@MFLuder-me1vn]

I remember there was a video of black belt testing and they did this thing where the master stood over and behind them with a bamboo sword as they kneeled on the ground. The person would have to sense the sword coming and roll out of the way. In the published video the person rolls out of the way every time. The The Pink Man uploaded an unedited version that shows them consistently getting bonked on the head.

[@DFMSelfprotection]

yeah that's known as a fail ha ha ha.

[@seanbarker9272]

Dan Wolfman was slagging you off again 😂

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Yup... Having a face to face conversation apparently was not enough for him.

[@eclipsewrecker]

He’s not very reasonable, logical, or honest (intellectually)....or maybe he just isn’t articulate.

[@lucian5389]

@@eclipsewrecker I think he's just dumb mate

[@เด็กพเนจร-ฝ4ษ]

@@MartialArtsJourney Dan the wolfman who never competes in grappling tournaments and just shows himself beating up lighter guys during gym sparring?

[@BoxingForTheStreets]

Bujinkan is garbage. Nuff said.

[@jazzcama]

Once again a great video. Decent research and nuanced conclusion. In the end the message will always be: pressure test your art. Not only to see which parts of your martial art work, but also which techniques work for you. Each of us moves differently. Each of us has their preferences in what works for yourself. I am a Japanese JiuJitsu and kickboxing practitioner. Especially JJ has an enormous amount of techniques available. When I spar (which luckily we do at my dojo) I can honestly say that of all those techniques that I have 'mastered', I will fall back on a mere handful, simply because they fit me, my body, the way I move, and the way I think during sparring. Probably not more than 5% of everything available in the style itself. So I guess all the text above is a long version of: "yeah, pressure test everything you ever think of using for self-defense".

[@TheShadowplayer]

This video is so much better than the first! I totally agree with you and still love Bujinkan. Why? Because I know the casual Bujinkan training isn‘t for self-defence. Many people confuses this and I also agree, that a lot of teachers push this misconception. If you dive into the Bujinkan schools, you will see, that what most Dojo‘s train is only the first level basic. As you said: the first step ist increase distance, reduce speed and resistance, so the student can practice and grab the concepts. But the lack of quality control leads to a lot of teachers who don‘t really know the essence of the technique they are teaching and this way it becomes only a kata with no life. Don‘t get me wrong, I also know a bunch of high level teachers whom I very certain will survive in a real fight and are able to apply these techniques. But what is the difference? It‘s pressure testing indeed. The didn‘t stop with basic techniques (the one you see in 99% of the online stuff) or high level concepts (as you see in videos from Hatsumi Sensei, who also don‘t clams that what he teaches there can be applied 1:1 in a real fight). They continue to train with short distance, different attracts, speed etc. To use it in their police or military practice. So what is Bujinkan Training good for? It‘s good for yourself in the first place, meaning: self-confidence, a great self-awareness and self-body-awareness and to connect with the living flow around us (sounds more spiritiual than it is). If you want more you need a teacher who can teach you more: self-defence, sparring and explicit black belt training. Side Node: as we have so many schools and principles, we start training close distance / realistic from 1. Dan black belt, the students levels are meant only to teach you how to move and the basics of some techniques. How we handle it in my own dojo? We do separate self-defence classes, with specific situations, like some one pushing you, giving some hook punches, grabbing you and tackling you around, etc. And show which principles you can apply and how they look in a „real fight“ - and thats different. We also do some realistic henkas from time to time in our regular training, to show, that a fight doesn‘t look like the basics they usually train. I don‘t want to give a student the impression he can win a fight without ever training a single fight situation specifically. One way one of my teachers sees all this: we currently live in a peaceful country and environment, so we focus on reaching high level training - if the environment changes, training changes to low level self-defence. My conclusion? You need to know what you are training for and you should find a martial are or martial sport, which matches these. Bujinkan is not the most straight forward approach to self-defence, but on the other hand you can train the techniques in any age or physical constitution (if you can move certain parts of you body on your own ofcourse). Bujinkan comes from battle field but is not a self fulfilling art, were you can survive on a battle field without ever training in a really battle situation :D PS: The technique you referred to, in Bujinkan called Musan, does work - but only in the right circumstances or it needs to be adapted. You need to know were this comes from: fighting with armour, so you and your opponents possibility to move is limited - and this means modern armour as well as historical. Try it again with a full military battle cloth ;)

[@irinaivanovic9792]

Not true. I trained in Bujinkan and as a woman, I can attest that it was significantly more realistic and effective at self defense than the TaeKwonDo McDojo's everyone loves to praise.

[@cainmorano4956]

Yes, not just pressure testing : pressure testing outside the style.

[@legion162]

I used to train wing chun kung fu, maybe for 5 years, 6 hours a week in the gym, plus whatever hours at home exercising, doing patterns etc, was pretty good to be fair within my gym, and used to do regular freestyle sparing. Had an amateur boxer join the gym, and during sparing he would revert to pretty much just boxing and could touch me almost at will, and I had very limited answers to his attacks, I had trained for 5 years against a certain style of attack, and experiencing a new style of attack really exposed my limited experience in dealing with something outside of my usual training. I did manage to adapt eventually to this new style I was facing, but eventually is no good when you are being attacked on the street. So totally agree with you, pressure testing is a must, under different styles and conditions.

[@voyager667]

@@legion162 Believe me, if that was not you but wrestler or karateka, things would be the same. Boxer in clinch would suck too.

[@blueypanda]

From a completely different field of expertise, my paramedic trainer always says, "We don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our training." I wish on the emergency medical side of things we would "pressure test" more. I just finished up my basic EMT course. Most of our hands on training was in class-room conditions, no stress, with outdated materials. When I finally got on a truck, it was literally "throw away everything you just learned because we don't use any of that in real life." I compare that to the paramedic trainer who would always throw in a level of uncertainty and stress to even simple drills. A drill like extracting a patient out of a car, he would throw a baby mannequin under the car, and if we didn't find it in time, we would be doing on the spot pediatric lifesaving techniques with him acting as the angry, screaming mother. I definitely feel like martial arts that don't pressure test are like the first style of teaching EMS. Assuming that somehow, when someone's life is on the line, us EMT's are going to be able to overcome poor training, unfamiliarity of materials, and lack of performing under stress. I definitely prefer the paramedic trainer's method. Stess test the shit out of your skills, throw curve balls, and evaluate what you did right and wrong. Make it as realistic as you can get it.

[@dianecenteno5275]

First, good video and thank you! One of the biggest issues that is overlooked or lightly touched on, is the goals of the organization. Quality control a problem? Why? The organization, from what I have seen and experienced, is a cult. They make money, make the training easy and let most anyone train. This is why you have 15th degree mega Don rankings. People who do nothing more than larp and wont ( and in many cases, not allowed to) train outside the Buj. If people conducted real training, you would not have as many people involved equaling less $. This was not always so. In the 80's, many of the instructors were LEO or Military and already had BB's in other arts. They incorporated those skills into their schools. That changed and outside training was discouraged or forbidden. Ranks were given not earned. Many of the older instructors left and went to the Genbukan or other non Ninjutsu schools. If you want good examples of Evolution from / working with the Takamatsu / Hatsumi line, research Akban, To Shin Do, Kenjutai Bujutsu, Yoshitsune Jujitsu (multiple lines) Also research the Genbukan. While they are traditional, I have worked with some of them and they incorporate other arts and pressure test. Train hard, dont drink the kool aid and stay safe!👍💮

[@sabby88888888]

I'm glad someone finally mentioned akban. I don't practice bujinkan, I do karate and bjj but I have learned a lot over the years from that channel. Especially takedowns.

[@milton7763]

- “Bujinkan is fake” - “You are welcome to come feel the pain of a properly applied technique” - “I accept” - Pooooof!!! Ninja disappear!

[@pulynanyalikibitz1301]

There is alot of dubiousness when discussing Hatsumi Sensei's version of it's lineage but, he is not the only student of Takamatsu Sensei (who is also a bit dubious when it comes to the historical aspects like their "scrolls" many of which were clearly written by him). Tanemura Sensei teaches a much less esoteric version of Takamatsu's system. Where I live, the San Francisco bay area, Bujinkan has found an interesting foothold. Because of its focus on nagenawa(rope and lasso) and other "improvised weaponry) it has become popular among EMT's and paramedics, who, I assure you, get into plenty of scuffles. (You should see some of these drugged out weirdo's we have running around out here) If one really wished to learn Heian era Kodo Butoku most likely practiced by Shinobi of the times, I would seek out Yamabushi-ryu Bujutsu. Fair warning, those guys are nuts, but they're mustard like Dijon.

[@jameswight6259]

Good video. Love your analysis - logical, well structured, rigorous, balanced, thorough. Nice work. Thank you.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

🙏

[@ThatGuyz82]

I have fought with 2 black belts (Taekwondo and I think Karate) and won both. Turned out as a high school wrestler, they had little they could do to me. (Note: these were agreed upon sparring, not bar fights or over a woman or anything)

[@wtfschindler]

This is the most comprehensive, thorough and objective analysis of the bujinkCON I have seen. Kudos to you sir. It comes down to one thing IMO. These students are not being trained to properly defend themselves. And that is a travesty. Enjoy the arts all you want, but don't send students out into the real world under the false pretense that this stuff works. It. Does. Not.

[@wtfschindler]

@@andymax1 Brother do you hear what you're saying? You're investing a ton of time into an art that "might work". Don't spend all your time and energy chancing it! You owe it to yourself to study an art that has proven itself to hold up in TODAY'S dangerous world. And in my experience, this isn't it in my opinion. Take it from someone who wasted years doing that. I could have been learning so much more. (FYI I work actively in VIP protection and related operations so I know what I'm talking about.)

[@wtfschindler]

@@andymax1 Agreed. And here's to us older guys still throwing the kids around haha! Let's gooo!!!

[@seraphinaaizen6278]

Any time someone says that the reason they can't show their style being pressure tested because it's "too dangerous", then that to me is an immediate red flag. For a couple of reasons: The first being that no fighting style exists that is composed ENTIRERLY of techniques that too dangerous to train properly. So even if a style contains some very dangerous techniques (and I'd be willing to believe that's true; BBJ, for example, has a heel hook. I'd NEVER let someone do a heel hook to me in training), any worthwhile and functional martial art should still contain a lot of sparring, training, and it should be trivial to demonstrate it in action even absent these dangerous moves (to follow up on my previous example, it is trivial to find examples of BBJ being tested against live resistance and working, even though nobody is using heel hooks). Are bujinkan practitioners claiming that their style is composed of NOTHING but lethal techniques? They don't have any strikes, throws or ground techniques that can be demonstrated in resistant sparring without murdering their sparring partner? It's an argument that can't get out of the door without being absurd at face value. However, even if we gave them the benefit of the doubt, they still have a problem: Surely if the techniques are designed "for the streets!" then surely there should be examples of them being successfully used in self defense scenarios? If I wanted to, I could easily find dozens and dozens and dozens of candid videos of people using boxing to successfully defend themselves in a street fight. Such videos are ubiquitous (ironically, a lot of the people who claim that their martial art is "for the streets!" will dismiss boxing and other combat sports as being useless for self defense because "they train to fight within rules", despite all the evidence of these styles being used in self defense). Why is it that I can't find ANY candid footage of someone using these so called "for the street!" techniques to defend themselves in the street? You'd think that, if these techniques worked, SOMEONE would have caught it on film in the modern age of social media? It's all nonsense, frankly.

[@guidos2090]

I come from a karate school which didn't pressure test because it was "too deadly" and I used to use that argument. When I started getting into MMA and BJJ thanks to this channel and more internet evidence I realized the same thing, and curiously those "deadly techniques" that aren't allowed I have practiced them very very very few times in my life (and I have almost 13 years of practice) to not say never. I understand that people who didn't spend their lives to a traditional martial art can believe the myth that "traditional martial arts don't do sparring because their techniques are too lethal" but us who actually practiced those martial arts know deep down that that is a lie, and the 95% of the techniques we practice can totally be used in practice and pressure test

[@jacquesdemolay5171]

One thing that often doesn't get acknowledged regarding Dojo "techniques" and simulated combat scenarios, is the speed factor. When student and instructor square off, they typically both start out quite slow and deliberate, for demonstration purposes. But as the speeds inevitably increase, the accelerations become hugely unbalanced. Each might go faster and faster, but as the instructor approaches full speed with his defenses, the "attack" is rarely anyway near that. You have one person moving at close to 100% with impressive-looking defensive maneuvers, while the student or assistant rarely gets beyond 60% to 70% of real-world movements with the "attack." This is one reason why so many Dojo techniques won't translate into the real world. There is no shortage of street fight videos that demonstrate clearly just how fast punches and takedowns occur in reality. So sad the majority of traditional martial arts have become blind to their own misleading practices.

[@jonathanberry3783]

Well, I know I’m just another guy telling you instead of showing but I’ll throw my hat in anyway. I studied To Shin Taijutsu under Stephen Hayes for 15 years. We learned a lot of things you really can’t do in sparring or pressure testing. Eye gouging or attacking the eardrums, knees joints, etc. some of the techniques are designed to maim, by tearing muscle, and damaging joints, potentially permanently. We always worked these techniques safely and carefully. I’ll also say Stephen Hayes does a much better job of vetting his instructors and making sure the people in his dojos are high quality. In the Quest Centers we also did sparring at higher levels and opens were told to resist. I’ll close with this. When I was living in NYC I was attacked outside my apartment by a man with a knife. He was absolutely trying to kill me. Violently stabbing at my face and neck. He managed to cut me once, only when two people intervened and pulled us apart, stopping me from evading. I’m not claiming to be Batman, or even a real ninja. But I’m still here. Whether Bujinkan or To Shin Do is “real” ninja martial arts, I give it full credit for saving my life. I think Bujinkan is pretty inconsistent. I’ve seen and trained with some amazing instructors, but also seen some poor quality instruction. In the end, all the training and technique should disappear because your opponent is never going to do what you’ve planned for. That’s always been my understanding of “Ninjutsu” as a martial art. You study to learn yourself and your body and what you can do. How to read an opponent, properly position yourself, bait them, and find an opening. I think a lot of it just comes down to how effective the teacher is.

[@SryImHigh]

I love this channel. For many reasons, for one your voice is very calming. Also you are very open minded and give more then enough opportunity for people to reply and give their opinion as well and I got mad respect for that. And lastly, the topics are very informative. Thanks for the video. Chilled my mood right out. 🤜🏻🤛🏻 # Stay dangerous

[@MartialArtsJourney]

🙏🙏

[@yamabushiwarrior996]

I trained in Ninpo Taijutsu from 1986. During that time schools never existed. You had to go to one week seminars several hours in the day. And pretty much be in the next State to learn more. I can't speak for now...but back then we all worked live resistance. At times we got a bit bloodied up. It was way more harsh than the soft (please don't sue me) methods of today. I personally have used my art to protect myself in the street only 3 times. I had even done security. Funny...but my experience of Ninjuts is like a mixture of Steven Seagal's Aikido, BJJ, and Kenpo. Too bad it's now being trashed. However, I am happy with my traditional and modern method of my art. Thanks for your opinion and keep following your path. 👍

[@Pantoffla]

The best thing i learnt from bujinkan tjat has saved me is falling techniques and the bujinkan front heal kick Ore "stomp"kick.

[@Shougun2007]

Thanks for your critical questioning of claims made by martial arts and your scientific approach in seeking to objectively verify such claims. I myself used to practice Bujinkan for many years and now I do MMA. I would summerize the problems inhibiting the effectiveness of Bujinkan in three categories: (1) Training, (2) Theory, and (3) Historical claims. I will now specify: (1) Training lacks sparring completely and therefor fails to train the practitioner to use the techniques in any practical way; (2) The theory is overwhelming, with rigid systems of techniques which are taught along with their proper Japanese names, which does not help in developing practical fighting skills; (3) The historical claims of Bujinkan are dubious and, as far as my own Internet research goes, still unverified. It is true that training Bujinkan will teach you traditional Japanese martial art techniques with some real historical value, but the claims of the history of the organization itself remain unverified. My conclusion is that training Bujinkan will of course give the practitioner a useful understanding of how to wrestle, lock and grapple, giving a practical advantage over an adversary that hasn't been trained in any combat system at all, but unfortunately the training methods of Bujinkan and its overwhelming theory proves far too ineffective to provide any tangible benefit against a skilled adversary. Even after many years of training on black belt level, one is still unprepared for the harshness of real hand-to-hand combat - a personal claim from my own experience that your video proves to a cringeworthy degree. I enjoy Bujinkan for the full Japanese traditional experience, and I encourage anyone who is interested to seek out a dojo and start learning. But don't be fooled into thinking it will be a hand-to-hand combat system that will save you in a fight.

[@gushlergushler]

I am only going to comment regarding the point you stated about judging something based on outliers, as I have already done on the Dan the wolfman video: The effectiveness of a thing is determined not by a single case but by the average. That is because there is outliers in both directions of everything. As an example: there are probably terrible fighters from pressure tested martial arts out there as well as incredibly good ones. The extremes cancel each other out once the average of a thing is determined. Additionally that average has to be based on a sufficiently high number of subjects, else it is of no scientific relevance. If you have two individuals and one of the two can pull a thing of that is 50%. This is never an accurate representation of any thing. The higher the amount of subjects the more exact an average is going to represent a single thing. An additional anecdote about validity of a thing, at least in medicine: we live in a time where proof has to be made for a treatment to be accepted and not the other way around where a treatment is performed till someone disproves it. It should be the same with martial arts in my eyes.

[@orsat.ursus.strazicic]

You are absolutely right. People talk big and talk endlessly but when it comes to action and producing evidence they are sorely lacking. Those who talk endlessly are those kinds of people who failed at something and are compensating for their failures. There is a saying, those who cant do, they teach, for it is easier to get a job teaching how to do something than to get a job actually doing that thing. Therefore, I agree with you and I pity those loudmouths who are just all bark and no bite. Keep up the great work :D

[@neizha]

Rokas you are one of the most respectful people on this platform. The fact that the instructor said that you were only trying to make money off of them or to use it to degrade them is telling. It's a way for them to make it a catch 22 for you. They are setting it up so that if you don't show they can claim you're scared of them, and if you do show up and beat them in sparring then they would claim you cheated. They win either way. I would find a different group to work with as this instructor doesn't seem to be honest in his intention if you were to visit them.

[@mattiauk]

First Ninja comment, cheers :D

[@felipearevalo6792]

Rokas, in one of his old videos spoke about the big difference between Martial arts, combat sports and self defence, that each one belong to a different World, even if they speak some similar tópics among them. Maybe the problem arent the techniques, or the useful es, but how they are teached. In my Tai Chi comunity (another endless debate about what this practice really are) many teachers said the many techniques are deadly or very dangerous to be used, but never resolved the problem how to learn to be deadly if we never trained them in such way, another bunch of people said that only learning the taolu (the form, kata, etc) is the only way to undestand the uses of the form, again a big fail. And the rest we said is a good practice, for fun, for health, for relax, for anything different to a "deadly art". But many techinques, if not all, have something in common, they originally were teached to be effective as a Martial art, but, after decades of the Chi go-go mambo, and the lost of sparring in chinese Martial arts, and the teaching of how to use this in a combat scenario, the reasons of the techniques became lost and turned only into snail movements, that you cannot defend yourself with them. Take out the sparring and the real test in judo, or in wrestling, and many years in the future will get people doing akward movements and they will said they are trainning for fighting, thats happened with the Tai Chi (all the styles even the poweful Chen) the techniques are there but not the aplications or the intended uses, or the trainning to put them in test. You can see this in all Xiu Xiadong videos. Thank you Rokas. Keep up this hard work.

[@Hapkumdo]

Great Video! The only note I would have, is to expand your stock image footage ;)

[@mamoruk4143]

Very good video and I agree that any art needs pressure testing, I started back into bujinkan after 20 years of no martial arts training. The reason I came back to it is because while yes not everything on the base level is practical the instructors I've had so far have at least emphasized adaptability. example; Here's how we're practicing this technique A, B, C. reset. Now here's here it can all go wrong and how you can adapt. I would indeed like more live sparring practical application down the line, but for now I am soft and squishy and am content to learn the basics

[@modestogonzalez182]

Excellent!!! I agree with everything you said. I began training in the bujinkan back in 1987. I was a ninja crazed teenager at the time lol. Ninjas were everywhere in pop culture. Those of us who wanted the real ninjutsu experience found a home in the bujinkan and with Soke Hatsumi. A point that is never spoken of is that Hatsumi NEVER once claimed that he was teaching how to fight. I remember on multiple occasions hearing about and reading about how he wanted to create a peaceful environment where the world could learn the feeling behind the martial ryuha taught to him by his teacher takamatsu. Sadly the world will never really know how these ryuha would fair in real combat because all of the free fighting was removed by Hatsumi for safety's sake. Not saying that the ryuha are effective or not it's just that we will never know for sure. The bujinkan was developed as an organization to spread friendship and Japanese culture through the technical study of traditional ryuha. What I have learned from my many years of training is a concept know as taijutsu. Taijutsu is not a series of step 1 step 2 step 3 techniques. It is the practice of refining ones movements no matter what one is doing and using the whole body to accomplish things. The techniques within the bujinkan were designed to be used as roadmaps to attaining taijutsu. When one starts getting this feeling of efficiency of body movement then one can apply it to EVERYTHING one does. Taijutsu can be seen in judo and BJJ players, thai boxers, Filipino arnis fighters etc. A great example would be Baukaw the famous thai boxer. Talk about economy of motion! To sum up my long windedness, you have not received any videos showing bujinkan practitioners under pressure because they were never taught how to fight using these ryuha. They have to make up for it by adding aspects of other martial arts to the curriculum. It is extremely fun trying to figure out the taijutsu in the techniques! But you are playing a dangerous game by insisting that the bujinkan is a COMBAT ORIENTED ORGANIZATION!!!

[@ninjutsudojo]

I am the ninjutsu practitioner who submitted the first video contribution. Let me clear up a couple things: First, I did not "train in HEMA". Rather, as part of my own martial arts journey (pun intended, lol), I sparred with a HEMA group for a couple years. There's a big difference between fighting against a style, versus training in that style. Any serious martial artist understands this distinction. Second, the technique I performed in the video is a basic technique from our system of kenjutsu. I gave Rokas the names of the component pieces and even pointed out one instance where Hatsumi-sensei taught this technique. Everyone sees what they want to see I suppose. If you think that is a HEMA technique, go back and look at the historical illustrations. Even though there is a core of similarity, which is natural when weapons from different systems share characteristics, you will notice certain important differences. This results in a different "flavor" to the technique.

[@rafaeloperezjr]

Thank you, this video is a better critical view of the organization in terms of combat application. But it’s not a modern self defense school.. it’s an anthropological study of ideas, combat scenario, and culture. The teachers are just students trying to explore the study and the belt ranks to the teachers and students are a joke at times. You must live up to your rank not attain the rank because you are skilled. There are students who are even afraid of attaining rank. There are a lot of cultural aspects a student has to get used to. A change in perspective. Training is very similar to forms practice or two person forms practice. It is up to the student to take it as they choose. The Uke is there as a crash test dummy. Allowing the exploration of angles similar to pad work with a trainer. Every school is like this... explore. Only students who are close and trust each pressure test at times... a lot is lost in translation. With quality control... this can give a false sense of confidence. Just like any other school. And egos can flare just like any other school. Train and stay humble.

[@kenrose2523]

If you want to experience Bujinkan, I would just fly to Japan and visit Hatsumi's dojo.

[@ВсеволодВладимиров-б6ц]

This was a good analysis of the situation. I'm sorry you had to read that email from that snob who took your original video personally (probably because he realised it described him, I guess). I have been studying the 9 Ryuha of the Bujinkan for over 10 years now and am a part of the Bujinkan currently. Yes, I agree that the big issue is a lot of people just "believing" things are gonna work if they drill it in a dojo environment and not going out to pressure test against live, resisting opponents. Lack of quality control which leads to the Bujinkans reputation as fake ninjas and larpers among some combat sportsmen and martial artists. I have seen two types of the dojos in the Bujinkan - the ones that take the art and make it work - they pressure test, spar, learn how to apply the art on someone who is actively trying to hurt you and not get hurt themselves. And the ones that keep it at the historical martial arts tradition level, just doing the Katas (the Katas in the Bujinkan are mostly taught in pairs with the Tori and Uke, even though you can practice them by yourself, they're generally a group ordeal) practicing the schools in their purest form "as they're written", if you like, in the scrolls. Both of these are absolutely necessary for the 9 Ryuha survival. You need the tradition so that you have something to pass on and a "blueprint" to work with. You need to learn to apply the tradition in real life in order for it to become what it was meant to be originally and what it was historically. Personally, I am blessed that I am part of a dojo that teaches the tradition as pure as we can get outside of Japan - and that I have many friends who study combat sports and martial arts of various types, so I have been meeting with them regularly and sparring, and making the art work for me against someone who is trained and will give me a healthy competition and some valuable feedback. In saying that, I know that the 9 schools work IF one is to train to use them against a live opponent in a sparring situation. The 9 schools are simply traditional jujutsu of various origins, there's nothing "magical" or "ninja" about their movement. If one is to just keep it at the level of pure tradition as it's written in the scrolls, then that's all they're gonna do - they will preserve that tradition, but not know how to fight with it. I love this art and the schools that are taught. However I think that the Bujinkan as it is being taught in many dojos all over the world today is an excellent art to study for someone who already has experience in a martial art that requires pressure testing regularly and thoroughly. It's not so great if you've never studied anything else before, unless you are lucky to end up in one of the dojos that take it to that level that brings it back to life, instead of keeping it dead in the 15th century Japan. Make what you will of that statement :) I agree with you on many things you said, as someone on the inside of the organisation. However I'd also like to point out that I have met a few Bujinkan practitioners who are awesome and skilled fighters (not traditionalist historians, fighters) and can use the Bujinkan in a live sparring situation. I have also met ones who would get a concussion within the first 5 seconds on the mat against an average fighter with little experience. Just like in my old karate schools I've met awesome karatekas who could utilise their skills against a live opponent, and not so great ones that could do a perfect Kata, but would get their teeth kicked in against a live opponent. And it would go for literally any other art and school, be it Kung Fu, MMA, BJJ, boxing, Taekwondo, silat... There's the ones that go out of their way to preserve the tradition and the art PLUS make it work in a real situation, and there are those who don't, and just stick to the "easy" and "not scary" exercises for the sake of their own ego or goals in the art. P.S. facing a live opponent can be pretty unnerving I guess, even if you know them well, because it adds that factor of chaos and randomness. People don't like that. The ones that push on and persevere through the challenges of learning to experience and perform in combat are the ones that will end up embodying the spirit of the Ryuha and carrying the true tradition into the future. The ones that larp as medieval ninjas and keep it at the level of a Kata will waste their time.

[@rangda_prime]

I have trained a lot of Bujinkan and I have to agree with you on most of your points. I was in a good dojo that trained with more resistance than 99% of Bujinkan dojos, so I learned good body mechanics, how to fall on hard surfaces (we never used mats) and was in general good shape. We were always soaked in sweat and had bruises after training. When visiting other dojos I was shocked to see the low level of training they did there. I'm not saying my dojo was perfect, but it was better than the average one. Our ranking sessions did not have any katas or set techniques we had to show case, the head trainer just told everyone except the guy getting tested that "We're grading XX today, give him hard attacks and hard defences during class and then we'll let him defend against random attacks from you guys during the last 15 minutes." And that was it, you had to pass pressure testing to advance in rank. The dojo is since defunct, one of the main trainers busted his knee twice when cross training kick boxing and the other had a bunch of kids. They handed it over to one of the better students who unfortunately while being a very physically talented man was of a more "traditional" mind set and the training has become less intense. I'm currently swept up in the old school karate renaissance which tries to bring back life into the stultified McDojofication of that art. As for the actual old jujutsu techniques you can find in the Bujinkan, there's a lot of good stuff in there, but the lack of pressure testing means a lot of it isn't taught in a way that allows you to use it. And the entire system is very much based in armoured combat with weapons, which makes some of the movement patterns less practical for use while unarmoured and unarmed, which is how most of us will have to fight nowadays. And this knowledge base means that a lot of the unarmed striking is predicated on a sense of distance and timing that simply isn't adapted for close quarters fist fights. It teaches great distance and timing - if you're using a spear or long bladed katana. Against a modern boxing jab or hook, not so much unless you know it doesn't and adapt the art to suit the modern combat environment. And this is the deep, basic flaw that not pressure testing will blind you to. Not that the joint locks or throws are hard to do against resistance, but that you're moving and acting out of proper time and space. That's how you set yourself up to get your bell rung without realizing it happened.

[@JayAndNightASMR]

I've seen a lot of impressive moves, and choreographed fights. But whenever I've seen people use it in a real spar the techniques go out the window

[@mochigb621]

They end up looking like really bad kickboxing.

[@shanedpain7734]

We revert back to stuff like Boxing or Wrestling... Tai Chi guys say that their Tai Chi is for open hand(when it's a Sword and Spear system), and basically use boxing or wrestling techniques...

[@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh]

Well reason is that breaking fingers, gouging eyes, biting, headbutting and groin strikes are not productive in sparring, so you learn the basis of kickboxing and grappling and when you're in a real situation it becomes easier for you to implement a groin kick instead of leg kick and so on.

[@bujindork]

Any martial art,from Bujinkan to Shorenji Kenpo, that puts on the gloves and headgear and goes at it is going to look.like messy kickboxing which makes me ask, why not just train in kickboxing? I did the same thing going from kung fu to bujinkan now to Muay Thai. It just makes sense(unless you're practicing an art for fun and not practical fighting education).

[@mochigb621]

@@andymax1 Only in your dreams

[@jonlarosa7193]

In vale Tudo all those lethal move i.e. headbutting, groin shots, and the like are legal. Would be interesting to see the effect of this style in those settings.

[@MartialArtsJourney]

Good point 🤔

[@idleeidolon]

@@MartialArtsJourney the context of the combat sport really changes the dynamics of the fights and which positions and strategy are safe or effective. PrideFC was very different from UFC because of the setting: boxing ring vs cage, moreover the legality of head stomps and kicks to the head to a downed opponent. Combat Sambo and Lethwei has legal headbutting, which changes the dynamics of a clinch. Vale Tudo had legal strikes to the back of the head, so someone getting your back was a very dangerous position. Many grapplers in certain competition settings relax when someone is on behind them. In sparring where weapons are involved like knives, it's very common that once your opponent grabs your one knife hand with his two hands, he won't let go perhaps certain situations where the the question "why doesn't he just let go of your arm when you do a technique" applies there. As always context is king. and the problem with many traditional martial arts that don't pressure test is that a lot of techniques become divorced from the context they were used.

[@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh]

Maybe back in the day, you should update 9. Forbidden techniques The following actions are not allowed: 1. Biting 2. Spitting 3. Scratching 4. Hair pulling 5. Finger locks 6. Head butts 7. Attacking the groin 8. Poking fingers into eyes 9. Fish hooking 10. Pushing windpipe with thumb or finger(s) or squeezing the windpipe or adam's apple 11. Elbows to head or face in B-class contests. 12. Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 13. Strokes to the throat, back of the head, neck and spinal cord 14. Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope during the match shall be given a warning immediately. 15. Escaping to the outside of the ring 16. Throwing the opponent outside the ring 17. Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent. 18. If one is standing and the other is not in upright position, the fighter who stands is not allowed to kick or knee to the head. 19. While in upright position and having an opponent in a neck lock it is not allowed to throw him, or even try to throw him.

[@jandobatter480]

@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh vale tudo is not vale tudo anymore.

[@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh]

@@jandobatter480 yep, vale tudo means literally "anything goes" but they realized some techniques were just too deadly and these are the techniques Rokas want bujinkan to pressure test, so when even "vale tudo(anything goes)" has outlawed those techniques it should really say something.

[@ThePsychoguy]

Ryan Dartez “ Was I Wrong About Bujinkan?” - Well yes and no. The problem is most.Bujinkan people are wrong about Bujinkan. You can check out Jinenkan or Genbukan. They train the same schools but train straight from the scrolls, so there isn’t any making shit up. A bit of history - the Bujinkan began its decay in the 80s when gaijin had their ninja boom and started going to Japan for ninja training. Word is Hatsumi basically sold out and started taking anyone as a student and inflating rank for profit, hence the current state of the organization. Tanemura (Genbukan) and Manama (Jinenkan) both saw this coming and split off to build their own organizations. They train closer to the original way, pre-80s, and in my mind are more legit representatives of these arts.

[@vorrnth8734]

Yep that's the big thing here. He mistakes the organization for the martial art.

[@RaymondYan007]

I couldn't agree more with you. You are completely right ! We need to come up with a safety training method to impliment pressure testings.

[@maxtowers8076]

I trained in two schools. One school that pressure tested and the other didn't. And you're right, there's a severe lack of quality control.

[@wtfschindler]

Correct. And what blows my mind is that this inconsistency is actually pitched by Hatsumi as a good thing. And here's what I don't get - they also pitch this whole lineage thing like that's what makes it special. Ok fine. But then why not leave the entire system to one successor? Instead, he's broken it up amongst several shihan, been less than transparent about who's taking over what when he retires (which he has). That's not going to bode well for the future of the art. At least he's made time to keep dying his hair purple. Whack I say...

[@maxtowers8076]

@@wtfschindler I'll be looking at other styles.

[@pilot.wav_theory]

Since when is kicking the knee illegal in mma? Seriously, i thought this was a legit technique that happens all the time in the ring

[@nicksalvatore5717]

I believe kicking the kneecap directly used to be illegal but it's not anymore. I could be wrong. Kicking the kneecap is illegal in many organizations though

[@pilot.wav_theory]

@@nagyzoli so an oblique kick or a side kick or even teep is illegal but a round kick is okay? I feel like you would just break your shin on the kneecap lol look at Chris Weidman

[@nagyzoli]

@@pilot.wav_theory Anything not hitting the kneecap directly from the front is ok.

[@sensam6155]

@@pilot.wav_theory No form of kicking the knees is illegal in professional MMA under Unified Rules. Rokas can be an idiot sometimes too lol.

[@ivanarescasal912]

Great analogy with the Tae Bo comparison...I've trained in Bujinkan for years, after training taekwondo before, and reaching a medium/high level belt (2 below black belt), and when faced with live combat situations I froze. It made me question the training I had until then. I learned more about fighting from MMA, boxing, muay thai and jiujitsu during a year than in all my prior years thanks to sparring practice. Nowadays I realize essentially classic martial art schools are pretty much multi level marketing schemes, where senior members and school leaders make the most money and for you to make money they make you enroll new students into the 'faith'. They use similar cult techniques to get engagement and fidelity from students.

[@irinaivanovic9792]

@@rwdchannel2901 Exactly. I learned to use all of those and literally NOBODY from other martial arts forms has even seen one of them let a lone handled those weapons.

[@PescaColorata]

l,

[@crushinnihilism]

Former Bujinkan guy here. The emphasis on theory was my experience as well. Theyre scholarly in terms of theory. After tbe last video I jumped into some discussions and thats what I got as well. They tend draw a distinction between martial arts and combats sports...as if techniques that work on someone who is trained to fight in a cage is an argument against "combat sports."

[@MacCionnaith]

You can't run away in a cage...

[@basilistsakalos9643]

there is a clear distinction between Bugei - "sciences of war" and Combat Sports, it is not philological...

[@crushinnihilism]

@@basilistsakalos9643 I dont really buy that theres a novel difference. Weapons aside, the person who moves more like the combat guys..during combat..would fair better. Essentially the combat guys have distilled what actually works during combat and tossed the garbage. Having done both, i can confidently say a high school wrestler could easily handle any high level belt in any of these schools.

[@basilistsakalos9643]

@@crushinnihilism I agree about the wrestler. Check out Kunii Zenya and Kashimashin ryu to better grasp the term "martial sciences".

[@dsimon33871]

Unfortunately that argument gets missused and is often misunderstood. A martial art about surviving violence simply has to include weapons and tactics.

[@falseprophet1972]

If you knew how financially invested Bujinkan guys are then you would understand their denial.

[@ninpobudo3876]

I'm Bujinkan, and I agree. However, my school doesn't train like most Bujinkan dojos in America. We train against full resistance, we don't leave our arm out, we don't larp, and we spar. Because of this some Bujinkan folkz don't like me or my methods: so I'm deemed "as not a true bujinkaner." But the people that I've called out to spar me or my students NEVER FOLLOWED THROUGH. 2 of my black belts cross train in MMA and BJJ so we have tons of fun! We're just a school who make techniques work in real time

[@SmoothT5280]

You can't discard an entire art because you find a dew failures as if other arts don't have failures. Bujinkan I did not have that experience. I got tossed around, headlocked, guillotined, joint locked. It's not all about kicks and punches but they'll have that in there to mess you up and throw you off guard.

[@christophedevarenne1412]

Outstanding points in this video. This is a completely fair estimation and analysis. What I get from this is that the techniques are effective but must be pressure tested. So it's not a failure of the material but a failure on the organization in ensuring the material is transmitted properly. I agree 100%. In this sense it is not Ninpo or Ninpo taijutsu that is at fault but the organization that is transmitting it. I had a recent conversation with one of my Ninpo sensei, who is a Bujinkan 10th degree in which he said the following; "Bujinkan is a business and as a business it wants your money. " Here is a high ranking member knocking his own organization! The point he made was that it doesn't matter what rank you have or what martial arts politics you play, the ultimate thing is to take the knowledge and apply it as it was meant to be. This is something he took very seriously. I respect his blunt assessment. Rokas is correct in that the effective Bujinkan dojos and practitioners seem to be outliers rather than the norm even if there are very successful people like Stephen Hayes, Jack Hoban and Yossi Sheriff. Funny thing about those 3 people is that they all went on to develop their own martial systems based off of Bujinkan but not subject to Bujinkan. There might be something to that. Something else that is interesting that Rokas mentioned was that the effective Bujinkan examples also incorporated BJJ and Muay Thai and other martial arts. Bujinkan was created by Hatsumi-soke from the 9 schools he inherited from Takamatsu-sensei. Takamatsu-sensei however did not inherit the 9 styles from a single source...he sought them out and added it to his own library. That is probably one of the better lessons any Takamatsu den student could receive. I believe that it is imperative that Bujinkan and any other Ninpo practitioner/organization continue to add to and keep relevant the techniques and testing them if it is to survive. I also believe that if Bujinkan wants to remove the tarnish from it's name that it's practitioners and it's teachers especially must adopt a non egotistical approach and be willing to open themselves to new ideas and counterpoints. I must say I am a more than a little disappointed in the one Bujinkan teacher's response to Rokas' willingness to visit and train. That sort of attitude does nothing to further the art or the discussion to improve self defense methods. Nor does it help to remove the tarnish from the Bujinkan name. Rokas is very correct in that if you make a claim you must be willing to prove it and not just respond from a position of a bruised ego. Thank you for taking the time once again Rokas, to further the discussion. I hope a good Bujinkan representative takes the time to have a good conversation with you on one of your live streams soon.

[@danielmartinez4616]

Agreed. Do you remember Robert Bussey? Its also interesting that early UFC fighters like Steve Jenum and Scott Morris have not benn mentioned or addessed in any way. Somewhere between Stephen and Jack Hoban Robert was a household name in modern "combat" Ninjitsu.

[@ricardoalmeida341]

it would be cool if you interviewed a true Bujinkan Master...like Pedro Fleitas for example...

[@aldorodriguez5933]

And there are betters instructors ...but maybe is for better to let them in the ignorance.

[@breeze529]

I've trained Bujinkan for almost 4 yrs. It depends on the way it's trained to make it effective. My very first experience I saw a young man testing for his next rank. He was to take a resisting opponent down with a certain throw as part of his requirements. He did, it wasn't as pretty as the demonstrations on KZbin but he did it. Bujinkan stresses the notion of having this huge arsenal and variety of ways two defend from many angles. I think it would be best to teach a few techniques, drill them substantially and then move on. Rather, it gives lots of Information and doesn't stop to really hone in on the techniques. Is it effective, I've witnessed it, but like even the most "effective" martial arts we witness today, it depends on the way it's trained and using a technique in the right context.

[@jonpsychomilledge]

Ive competed professionally in mma and trained my whole life and now im training in the bujinkan system. Everyone trains differently and learns differently. Im a correcrional officer and believe it or not what im learning in the bujinkan does help alot. Ive been in alot of bad situations. If you practice and pressure test what you learn safely you wont be dissapointed

[@zakzac1]

Something I came across just couple days ago that iterated this very well was a Tim Cartmell in an interview where he explains kata (or movement techniques in this circumstance) are like weight lifting. You can take a dumbell and lift it 5 times in proper form, learning how proper technique works. But without resistance no muscles will be gained. There has to be resistance.

[@djfearross4144]

I bet when they sent you 'demonstration' videos, you thought, "oh God, here we go again..."

[@MartialArtsJourney]

You get used to it I guess... 😅

[@arap8217]

​@@MartialArtsJourney Yeah, just like one gets used to the pattern of your videos: "X is simply BS/useless" ----> "X is BS/useless because my experience with Aikido...." -----> "X is BS/useless because my experience with Aikido... and because this person says so" ----> "Prove to me that X works..." -----> "Was I wrong about X?" -----> "Well maybe, I guess everything (even X) can work within the right context and if right conditions are met, but it mostly depends on the teaching methodology." Like, share, and subscribe!