Marvel Controversy (1/ 2) Who created the Fantastic Four? Kirby vs Lee : Docuseries 20 by Alex Grand

My book, Understanding Superhero Comic Books available at a.co/d/8ZSTMh8 & mcfarlandbooks....
Explore the severe tension between Jack Kirby and Stan Lee, the two men credited with the creation of the majority of the Marvel Universe during the 1960s Silver Age. What exactly happened between them, and what have they gone on record to say about who created what? China Doll by Lost European - Standard License, Photos ©Their Respective Copyrightholders
Video ©℗ 2019 Comic Book Historians
CBH Docuseries
#Marvel #SteveDitko #StanLee #JackKirby #FantasticFour #MarvelComics

[@toyhunter2903]

"Stan Lee did not even know what a mutation was." - Jack Kirby.

[@UJR78]

BAM!! for the win!

[@Triton63]

You didn't know how to walk until you learned how to walk. Stan Lee didn't know about mutations until he knew about mutations. Then he created the X-Men. So there's that pesky little detail, Team Kirby. They are co-creators. End of story

[@portialcmiller]

Which makes it very difficult to explain all the mutant stories Stan Lee wrote prior to F.F. #1. Never trust interviews, go to the actual evidence ... the comics.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

He Did Know, Back in 1959, Stan Lee and his Brother larry Lieber wrote a story called "THE MUTANTS AND ME", which was published in Tales of Suspense 16. Stan Lee and Steve Ditko made the story called "The Man in the Sky" a year before the X Men were created, it was published in "Amazing Adult Fantasy".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@UJR78He Did Know, Back in 1959, Stan Lee and his Brother larry Lieber wrote a story called "THE MUTANTS AND ME", which was published in Tales of Suspense 16. Stan Lee and Steve Ditko made the story called "The Man in the Sky" a year before the X Men were created, it was published in "Amazing Adult Fantasy".

[@AliFareedMC]

This remind me of Bob Kane said "Now that my long-time friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill never received the fame and recognition he deserved,"

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

John Romita made clear Stan and Jack plotted together: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". Romtia also made clear Stan was deeply involved in plotting Spider-man: "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on. Generally we would select the setting; sometimes we wouldn't even have time to select the settings, like "it takes place on a subway." He would give me that, and tell me where he wanted it to end". On another interview Romita expanded on this: "If Stan weren’t such a histrionic character, I probably would have fallen asleep right there, but he kept me awake because he was really jumping all over the office. He was using different voices, shouting, screaming, running down the hall - he really did all those crazy things".

[@georgewilliams1470]

It all boils down to the fact that Ditco and Kirby created other characters after leaving Marvel where Stan didn't create any more major characters.

[@pablosonic892]

But not memorable characters. Stan also created non memorable characters. Darkseid wasn't a memorable character until another writer did something with him. Proving that Jack needs a writer, a co-collaborater to make his ideas construtable and have universal appeal. Just as Stan needed an idea man to put down the human element and make it relatable to the masses. One needs the other to create the lasting art. Stan Lee is an essential ingredient. Jack was a twenty year vet whose only memorable character Captain America fell out of favor for fifteen years. Stan Lee was the one to make him the timeless relevant hero for all ages. Stan is the man.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Stan created Kingpin alongside John Romita Sr after Ditko left. Kirby left shortly before Stan became the leader of the company, so he couldn't create anything even if he wanted to. Your argument is childish. You should also remember Charlton Character created by Ditko weren't popular at all.

[@pretorious700]

Challengers of the Unknown was the first time Wally Wood inked Jack's pencils. Comic art at it's finest.

[@comicbookguy6361]

I'm not quite sure but I think Skymasters was the first one where Wally and The "King" worked together.

[@MisterMiracleComics]

See challengers of the unknown #3. Where they go to space get bombarded by cosmic rays and develop super powers. Like flame manipulation and turning invisible. This was obviously when Jack created the Fantastic Four, before he was at Marvel. Stan Lee is comics biggest fraud

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​​​@@MisterMiracleComicsWrong. It's clear you haven't read that story. It wasn't the whole team that went into space, it was only Rocky, and it wasn't cosmic rays that gave him his powers, but the formula given to him by professor Curtis, something that's even outright stated in said story: "It was Foolhardy to attempt this experiment! We underestimated the chemical's power! It not only helps the subject to muster the natural forces in his body... but it enables him to magnify and propem them as weapons". Rocky also doesn't get invisibility powers, but rather the power to camouflage himself like a reptile and although he does get fire powers, Johnny Storm's fire powers are clearly taken from Carl Burgo's Jim Hammond and Johnny's fire powers are clearly far more similar to Jim Hammond's powers rather than Rocky's.

[@Rometiklan]

Outstanding research. Since the popularity of the MCU and all the accolades pouring out for good old Stan, I've been delving into Marvel's history a little more. I'm fascinated by the behind-the-scenes workings of the Marvel bullpen back in the day. Since the recent passing of Ditko, there are fewer voices remaining to counter Stan's claims of sole creator. Thanks for doing this and sharing your research. Liked and subscribed.

[@SirBlackReeds]

It's really sad because the artists are getting screwed even from beyond the grave. They are getting screwed out of proper credit.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@SirBlackReedsJohn Romita made clear Stan was strongly involved in ploting spider-man: "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on". Jack Kirby was also known for exaggerating his claims of ownership, as he once claimed he came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false because the Hulk only transformed at night in his first appearances and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. Kirby also claimed he came up with the idea of the X Men but this is again false as Stan had made a story with Ditko in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 a year before and said story was clearly a protorype of what would eventually become the X Men. Kirby also claimed Stan wasn't involved in plotting but Romita disagrees, as he said: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there". If we are going to criticize Lee for exaggerating, we should also criticize Kirby.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

You seem to ignore the fact that Ditko and Kirby didn't like each other. Kirby planned kn making a story making fun of randian philosophy and it was going to be Kirby's response towards Ditko.

[@carlosarce5013]

Don't trust a person that is always "smiling".

[@marSLaZZ66]

Sharks!!!

[@hydrolito]

You mean like Honest John's used cars on Rowan and Martin's Laugh in. Richard Nixon: I am not a crook.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Larry Hama made clear that was Stan's true personality: "It is now 22 years later and I am firmly convinced that with Stan Lee, what you see is what you get. The enthusiasm is genuine. He is just happy to be here. And nice? In all this time, I have never heard him say a mean word about anybody".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@marSLaZZ66Larry Hama made clear that was Stan's true personality: "It is now 22 years later and I am firmly convinced that with Stan Lee, what you see is what you get. The enthusiasm is genuine. He is just happy to be here. And nice? In all this time, I have never heard him say a mean word about anybody".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@hydrolito Larry Hama made clear that was Stan's true personality: "It is now 22 years later and I am firmly convinced that with Stan Lee, what you see is what you get. The enthusiasm is genuine. He is just happy to be here. And nice? In all this time, I have never heard him say a mean word about anybody".

[@melbea03]

I've heard Stan give credit to Jack And Steve many times

[@AliFareedMC]

Giving credit for the arts but not the stories

[@melbea03]

@@AliFareedMC called them co plotters

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@AliFareedMC Jack Kirby was also known for exagerating his role, as kirby once claimed he came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false because the Hulk only transformed at night in his first appearances and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. Jack also claimed he came up with the idea of the X Men but this is again false as Stan had made a story with Ditko in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 a year before and said story was clearly a protorype of what would eventually become the X Men. Kirby also claimed Stan wasn't involved in plotting but Romita disagrees, as he said: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

[@Cirnenric]

The thing is if you read the stories that Jack Kirby wrote and drew as in Mr. Miracle and Steve Ditko in Mr. A, the writing and pacing is poor and muddled. It’s clear that Stan Lee understood the pacing, plot and character conflicts of story telling that made the superheroes dynamic and successful.

[@mesolithicman164]

Absolutely. It's very fashionable to cast Kirby as an underdog. He created ideas that Stan gave life to. Stan's non scripted approach created the freedom for artists to tell stories visually, not mechanically render a script. That freed artists and made Marvel uniquely exciting. It was Kirby who due to poor sales of his DC stuff came back to Marvel.

[@aktatiracanal]

I believe that Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko deserve more credit than Stan Lee. But Stan Lee seemed to be the ultimate showman and self promoter, so he was constantly out and about repeating the same message over and over.until people just accepted it. I'm not a writer or a comic book artist, but I can imagine how much it would take out of Kirby, Ditko and any other artist from a mental and physical standpoint. I'm not saying writing is easy, because it isn't. So of course Lee deserves credit, but... It seemed like one day Kirby and Ditko looked up from drawing and heard Stan Lee saying he created all these characters without giving them full credit.and their response was... "Where was I when he was saying all stuff?" Well... they were busy working and didn't have the time to refute what Stan was saying until after the fact.

[@elizabethmolino8262]

Exactly .Stan Lee did Jack and Ditko dirty .His legacy is tainted.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

Wrong. John Romita made clear Stan was strongly involved in ploting spider-man: "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on". Flo Steinberg also made clear she saw Stan plotting with the artists and commented on how he would move like the characters during the plotting process. Kirby was also known to lie, for example he once claimed he came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false because the Hulk only transformed at night in his first appearances and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. Kirby also claimed he came up with the idea of the X Men but this is again false as Stan had made a story with Ditko in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 a year before and said story was clearly a protorype of what would eventually become the X Men. Kirby also claimed Stan wasn't involved in plotting but Romita disagrees, as he said: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​@@elizabethmolino8262 John Romita made clear Stan was strongly involved in ploting spider-man: "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on". Flo Steinberg also made clear she sae Stan plotting with the artists. Kirby was also known for lying about it, for example he claimed the Hulk was his idea and that he came up with it after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false because the Hulk only transformed at night in his first appearances and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. Kirby also claimed Stan wasn't involved in plotting but Romita disagrees, as he said: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

[@Gamer-lq4wl]

The Marvel Method only proves one important thing............. Stan Lee's lack of creativity. Excelsior !

[@scottanderson8167]

Kirby. Kirby, Eisner and Ditko invented everything worth a damn.

[@pretorious700]

Plus Alex Raymond.

[@edmonddantes3640]

@@pretorious700 Bravo.

[@johnLennon255]

And then came Alan Moore

[@wk3820]

It's pretty obvious in some later issues of FF that Stan barely understood the story Jack had created. I think I remember that he even admitted in at least one editorial comment in an actual issue that he didn't understand Jack's story (maybe around the time Black Panther showed up?). At the same time, Stan did add something critical to the FF's success in that he put dialogue into an easy, fun "voice" that epitomized the "pop art" aspect of what Marvel became. It's possible to argue that his only contribution was to "dumb down" Jack's work, but he also made it more accessible. Jack fully created the FF with only limited editorial input from Stan, but without Stan, Jack's baby wouldn't have been half as successful as it proved to be. As New Gods later proved, Jack could go over an average fan's head when he got cosmic.

[@RubbinRobbin]

Thinking that dumbing down a subject matter as a reason for success is rather naive, especially after the mind melting blow up of Chris Claremonts X-Men. If anything Stan hindered the full creative potential of Jack Kirby. Also after the fact to just imagine what Kirby would have accomplished with that unhindered success and all of that creative bank.

[@wk3820]

@@RubbinRobbin I do agree that Stan hindered Jack, though for the most part Kirby was powerful enough to do whatever story he wanted. It just didn't sound as literate by the time Stan finished his tweaks. Stan's interference with Ditko was more destructive. While Stan left him to his own mostly on Doctor Strange, with Spider-Man, it was different. Stan like the character, but his vision was starkly different from Ditko's. By the second year of "Amazing Spider-Man", Steve was doing most of the plotting and scripting himself, but Stan insisted on again "dumbing down" stuff. Even more than in FF, in AMS, there was an almost surreal tug-of-war, as the pictures and the altered dialogue sometimes told completely different stories. By the end, I think Steve Ditko was basically taking a guerilla approach and sneaking in his story underneath the dialogue. He seemed to be drawing panels expressly to relay his story without words. On one hand, it makes those old stories so interesting to read just to try to figure out what was really going on behind the scenes, but on the other, what might Spider-Man been had Ditko remained? Not that the version we got was bad by any stretch...

[@johnLennon255]

Stan is the epitome of cornyness in comics. It's not accessible, it's just bad writing.

[@janorhypercleats]

Yes, Kirby complains about Stan Lee, but if you look at his work at DC, (especially the dialogue), you'll find that he missed Stan Lee's dialogue. Kirby's dialogue is sometimes lacking ("shut-up, you dum-dum!) Also, Lee was keeping it commercial, without Lee, Kirby got too far out! New Gods didn't sell because it went over too many reader's heads!

[@Jakejesus]

very well put

[@johnrunion5357]

carl burgos created the human torch.

[@ComicBookHistorians]

True. And Jack Kirby & Stan Lee co-created Johnny Storm.

[@harveyabel1354]

That Torch was an android or the like.

[@johnrunion5357]

still same name + same ability.

[@hydrolito]

Challengers of unknown also sometimes had a female character join them named June She is called The Traitorous Challenger in title of story In Challengers of the Unknown No. 2 cover dated July in 1958. The stories were reprinted by DC in a series called Show Case Presents Challengers of the Unknown 1 with show case# 6 thru 12 and The Challengers of the Unknown #1 thru #17 with over 500 pages of comic in black and white but covers front and back in color. Pages number to 544 plus covers. original comics were from 1957 to 1961. I bought my copy at Ollie's Outlet they are not likely to have these anymore but should have other comics at discount prices.

[@sinchman1]

Stan Lee was a liar and a disgrace...These ideas came from Jack and Steve...Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were the true masterminds of Marvel's Universe.

[@AliFareedMC]

Lee was the mastermind of gender bending and Stripping lol

[@sinchman1]

@@AliFareedMC Lee was not the mastermind Stan Lee was at Timely/Atlas 20 years before since Jack Kirby departed from the company Stan Lee didn't have these ideas then... Stan Lee was looking for help when Jack Kirby came back Jack kirby came out with all these marvel characters ideas take a good look at the story behind challengers of the unknown and the FF...You probably was just born in 2000 so be quite

[@jcl5611]

@@AliFareedMC Stan Lee was the one who came up with the ideas with other comic creators like John Romita, John Buscema and Gil Kane.

[@jcl5611]

@@AliFareedMC Stop downplaying Stan the Man's legacy

[@AliFareedMC]

@@sinchman1 Read my comment again I wad referring to his She Hulk and Stripperella ideas lol

[@emyrderek9105]

As one who grew up with 'nuff said' and 'The Merry Marvel Marching Society', the controversy over who was the actual writer (Kirby or Lee) was in full debate even as we all eagerly awaited the next issue of the Fantastic Four and Mighty Thor. To me, it was a no-brainer, as the IMAGINATION of the stories matched the IMAGINATION of Kirby's art! So no matter what sort of 'literary-tweeking' Stan did, there was no way the work he 'worked-on', was not already plotted and dialogued out. And once 'The King' left, those titles went straight down the drain! While on the other hand, the Fourth World he brought to DC made it obvious who the creative force behind those two Kirby titles had been, thereby finally ENDING the debate!

[@youtubebitchcenter1463]

Emyr Derek So........ it’s safe to assume that’s not you in the thumbnail pic?

[@emyrderek9105]

@@youtubebitchcenter1463 Believe it or not, your reply was an actual head scratcher..... Until I realized you meant my Avatar. And while I have no idea of who, or what her character is, she does appear to embody a lot more of me than you can know. Now cue the diabolical laugh!

[@hydrolito]

Challengers of the unknown also somewhat resemble Doc Savage and his team of adventurers they had unigue inventions and each was some kind of expert. They also had headquarters on the 38 floor of a sky scraper. of course DC comics Superman also copied him as Doc Savage was called Superman in 1934, was fast enough to out run a horse and dodge bullets also named Clark and had a fortress of solitude in the artic, he was also called the man of bronze.(a metal) Also a character called Steel Sterling was called man of steel before Superman was.

[@DanAvenell]

I think the synopsis for FF issue 1 is a key piece of evidence that shows Stan Lee deserves half the co-creator credit. If this was done after he and Jack had a chat, unless Jack needed a four page synopsis to remind him what he'd already decided, Stan had enough input to get a co-creator credit by today's standards. Good video.

[@SirBlackReeds]

Additionally, Stan Lee did make the original plot synopsis, which interestingly enough has details like stretching hurting Reed Richards and Johnny Storm being able to ignite for only 10 minutes at a time.

[@toyhunter2903]

@@SirBlackReeds That's is very debatable. After the creation of Fantastic Four and realizing the big success of that comic Stan Lee suddenly came with a piece of paper specifying the details of Fantastic Four and the synopsis. LOL :D There is no proof that assure that letter came after or before FF. I think Stan Lee was trying to assure his protagonism in the success of the company first big hit. After all Stan Lee had to prove his great value as an Editor-In-Chief to the owner...Martin Goodman. ;)

[@SirBlackReeds]

@@toyhunter2903 www.comicscube.com/2010/11/doom-patrol-may-have-been-rip-off-after.html Read this,

[@familycorvette]

Kirby created amazing characters before and after his time with Stan Lee. Stan Lee never created a single character before or after his time with Kirby. You do the math.

[@Gamer-lq4wl]

Stan Lee was an editor, and he continued to work with talented creators like John Romita, Gil Kane, Jon Buscema etc. after Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko left Marvel. Stan Lee may have not created the Marvel characters but he definitely had an input on those comics. All the words you read in the comics were edited by him and were based on scripts from the artists (Ditko) and dialog suggestions left on the artwork (Kirby).

[@petermj1098]

@@Gamer-lq4wl Stan hired Jack and Steve not the other way around. I imagine Stan saying: “Make me a design of a superhero who is dorky teenager with spider powers.” “Make me a design of a superhero like Howard Hughes who wears a metal suit that is like a rocket.” “Make me a design of a superhero who is a scientist like Victor Frankenstein and Dr Jekyll who turns into Frankenstein’s monster mixed with Mr Hyde.” “Make me a design of a superhero team of 4 astronauts hit by cosmic rays- a smart leader one, a woman, a pretty boy and a strong one.” “Make me a design of a superhero who is a doctor who becomes a wizard” “Make me a design of a superhero who is a African king who dresses like a feline.” Stan has the right to call himself a creator if he came up with the ideas of the characters in the first place. Without those ideas the artists would not have drew them.

[@Gamer-lq4wl]

@@petermj1098 I'm not gonna spend my time with you. Research more and then come back with facts of Marvel history to be worthy of my time. Bye !

[@PrototypeOnDemand]

bro thank you for this!!!!!!!

[@rickytoddbotelho9555]

I think Jack was the inspiration for everything. Stan wrote to Jack's melody. And later Stan took credit for the bullet Jack invented not knowing fully what the impact would be in society what such a force would create. And this bit of prose is completely inspired by these two geniuses. Love them forever. Excelsior!!

[@comicbookguy6361]

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did the product (artwork, stories and characters) Stan Lee as an editor just polished the dialogs with his owns words and catchy phrases. You know, like... True Believers, Nuff Said and Excelsior !

[@____2080_____]

4:19 says it all. This is how media makes stories juicy and how they hook readers. Unless you have all of the men together, they will gravitate toward the only person they are talking with. Steve nor Jack were talkers, Stan was a talker as the media gave all of the credit to him.

[@comixamples524]

An example of Stan Lee's creative input was Steven Ditko once drew Spider-Man yelling at protesters but Stan Lee interpreted it as Spider-Man congratulating the protesters. Now imagine Spider-Man as this prude older kinda character and tell me if Stan Lee created Spider-Man or not. Would Spider-Man be as popular today?

[@followthewhiterabbit2549]

We don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Spidey would have been a famous anti hero like Wolverine.

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

​​@@followthewhiterabbit2549Ditko wanted Peter to be like Ted Kord, this is clear if you analyze Ditko's solitary work on Spider-Man, meanwhile Stan wanted him to be an every man, something Romita confirmed as he remembers Stan caring More about Peter's personal life problems rather than the villains he was going to fight that week.

[@harveyabel1354]

From what I've seen of the work of each, apart from the others, Stan Lee is the true writer of the bunch. Kirdby's dialogue for his own stories was deservedly mocked by several publications.

[@edfarajian4664]

Stan just wrote in dialogue balloons, but the stories and panels were originated by Jack.

[@TheVetoSkreeemer]

That does not apply to Ditko.

[@Clay3613]

Ed Farajian So, stop cherry-picking.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

lol Jack and all the artists did the whole thing. there was no scripts back in the day

[@comicbookguy6361]

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko not only drew the 100% of the artwork in their respective comics but also they created the stories too. The Marvel Method used in the company to produce comics confirms this. Stan Lee just polished the dialogs with his owns words and catchy phrases. You know, like... True Believers, Nuff Said and Excelsior !

[@samuelbarden4790]

This one was pretty solid, pointing out periods of Kirby switching his story from collaborating with Stan to taking sole credit. Also this video correctly gets that in the New York Herald Tribune, Jack isn't slighted. In the article, Stan is clearly giving Jack a very barebones plot, which Kirby fleshed out in FF #55. Also the Herald Tribune writer said that Stan had an ESP session with his artist. Unless the readers feeling that Stan actually mentally fleshing out the story for Kirby, a lot would be needed to make Stan's plot work. FF #55 is a lot better story than the plot given. Kirby also removed the Dr. Doom subplot.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

But Stan got Kirby back on track and Doom DID show up two issues later which was expanded to Dr.Doom's stealing the Surfer's powers!

[@SJTMASSIVE]

The part of the story that Stan spoke about is so different than what Kirby did, it's not even worth mentioning. Doom almost destroying the FF while the Thing is fighting Silver Surfer. It's an example that Kirby edited that out of Lee's springboard.

[@johnrunion5357]

all stan lee had to do was stick to the same lie.

[@toyhunter2903]

@@johnrunion5357 LOL :D

[@wk3820]

Stan basically gave a few sentences of a plot, at most, and, once the story was done, then tweaked Kirby's finished dialogue to make it sound hipper. That was the same thing Julie Schwartz did over at DC at the same time, and they called him an editor, not a writer.

[@SirBlackReeds]

Deep role in the creation of Spider-Man? I thought Stan Lee rejected Jack Kirby's spider hero and took his idea to Ditko, and the rest is history. I hope there will be a biopic about the creative struggle between Lee and Kirby. Maybe that will tear down the myth of Stan Lee and shed light on the reality to his fans. He wasn't this great guy and the larger than life, bombastic persona he exuded was just a persona. He was simply a good guy, though still no hero.

[@toyhunter2903]

Stan Lee is just a product from cameos in successful movies, rumors and spread of disinformation on social media.

[@wk3820]

The way I read it, Kirby's concept for Spider-Man was too close to his Fly or Fly-Man designs for Archie several years earlier. Someone pointed this out, and Stan was afraid he might get sued. That's why he gave Ditko a crack at it. Apparently Stan did have the name already by himself. Ditko did the rest. And if Kirby's only role was this tossed idea and then later drawing the first cover, that's still a notable contribution. Not enough to share any creator credit, but still notable. Personally, I think credit for Spider-Man should be handled like DC does Batman these days. It's no longer "Batman created by Bob Kane", but "Batman created by Bob Kane with Bill Finger". Spider-Man should be "Spider-Man created by Steve DItko with Stan Lee". This more properly denotes there was a main creator and a secondary one, not equals.

[@toyhunter2903]

@@wk3820 In an interview Jack Kirby was asked about his involvement in Spider-Man, he said this ... "I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. We decided to give the book to Steve Ditko who was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job on that."

[@lamaripiazza5226]

@Toys Yup

[@timetraveler7929]

@Lamari Piazza Hi

[@hydrolito]

Doc Savage had head quarters in a New York sky scraper lead a team of adventures in 1934, was also called Superman Doc Savage master of mind and body in 1936 he also had a Fortress of solitude in the Artic so both Fantastic Four and Superman copy Doc Savage.

[@ComicBookHistorians]

You may like this then: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zp-WXoZ5eLh-ias

[@DCMarvelMultiverse]

Well, look at what work they all did AFTER they split up their collaborations as well as work they did separately before their '60s heyday of collaboration.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Jack Kirby created Darkseid, The New Gods, Kamandi, etc Stan Lee created Striperrella. Excelsior ! :D

[@comicbookguy6361]

And when Jack Kirby returned to Marvel he created The Eternals, Machine Man and Devil Dinosaur.

[@comixamples524]

Stan Lee has admitted himself to the Marvel Mathod which is the underling plot of an issue Beginning, Middle, and End. Than Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko would draw anything and everything without restriction than Stan would go back and right the story. A good picture is nice to look at BUT a good story keeps you coming back for more. Stan may not of "created" the characters but he gave them life. A personality.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

No Stan would tell the guys what the story was VERBALLY for a short while then these artists would do the whole thing. And he would come back and fill the word balloons. So basically he would do next to nothing. He was more like a traffic controler since there was so many titles.

[@toyhunter2903]

WRONG! Stan Lee didn't work with full scripts. Actually Stan Lee didn't have time for that. An example of this is the villain... Kingpin Stan Lee said to John Romita this..."The next villain will be called Kingpin". That's all he said, no background story, no details about it. John Romita created the background story of Kingpin and the design of the character too. Stan Lee just gave him the name. Stan Lee was a fraud and a theft !

[@SirBlackReeds]

Not exactly. There are reports that his artists were far more responsible for characters. Take Spider-Man for example. He is a Ditko creation. It was Ditko that breathed life into him.

[@waltersolomon9049]

I've been losing so much respect for Stan Lee in recent years. I don't deny his talents but it seems he was a creative thief, a glory hound, a shameless self promoter and a sell-out. Now his annoying daughter is going on TMZ and, likely, other outlets saying Stan created silver age Marvel singlehandedly.

[@toyhunter2903]

Jack Kirby was the mind behind Marvel. Jack did the product, Stan Lee promoted and sold it. That's the reason he became the face of the company and thus very famous. In few words Stan Lee was just the mascot of Marvel Comics.

[@kchishol1970]

@@toyhunter2903 I wouldn't go that far, I would give Lee credit for the dialogue and just the role of an editor with Lee restraining Steve Ditko's preachiness was vital in and of itself.

[@toyhunter2903]

​@@kchishol1970 Do you think Stan Lee came with the stories? LOL ! :D Jack Kirby did the stories and drew them. Even the creation of new characters and villains like Silver Surfer and Galactus. He put in the drawings footnotes for Stan Lee so he can understand what's happening in each panel. Stan Lee just edited with fancy words the dialogs. But guess what?... Stan Lee took advantage from his position in Marvel to assure his name as the solo writer. The credits should have been...Written and drawn by Jack Kirby. Edited by Stan Lee. Stan Lee was a greedy man, a thief who screw Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.

[@deniswilson8152]

The spiderman logo was actually a restaurant logo that stan used for the comic

[@andyallom4357]

The level of research here is phenomenal. Yourself and a number of presenters on similar topics, are making my evenings very enjoyable. Regardless of who did what, I love Stan and he is responsible for the popularity of modern comics because of his personality and his passion for making the readers feel part of a family, eg Stan's Soapbox, MMMS, FOOM etc. FACE FRONT TRUE BELIEVERS (Or was that Jack?)

[@johnrunion5357]

jack did plenty of great work before, during and after marvel. stan is a shameless self promoter.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Your avatar shows how blind you are from the truth.

[@anissueofursincerity]

It's really the illustrator that creates the superhero. Stan did not draw.

[@Triton63]

Thanks for your opinion...you're wrong! They are both co-creators.

[@AliFareedMC]

@@Triton63 Stan drew? LOL

[@Clay3613]

The book would've went nowhere if Stand didn't take control of writing. Studying many of Kirby's other works where he had creative control, they had very stilted dialogue and God or God-like characters who weren't exactly mainstream material. The Inhumans and Eternals didn't exactly sell well.

[@termsofusepolice]

Another couple examples are from the mid-70's when Kirby returned to Marvel and was given both art and scripting duties on Captain America and Black Panther. Sales plummeted and he was pulled IIRC within roughly one year.

[@randalwung8715]

Okay, I’ve just gotta say a few more things about “Who created what?” It IS true both Lee and Kirby have, or had, notoriously bad memories recalling their comic collaborations and contributions, though I truly believe Lee’s is more “selective” than Kirby’s ever was. And, yes, Jack could be selective too. As was mentioned in the video, he said nice things about Stan after returning to Marvel-but, c’mon, could he honestly talk smack about him after leaving DC, the ONLY other company worth working for in the 70s? Plus, Jack was the classic working class dude who just wanted to provide for his family, so he put shit behind him to do what he did best: make comics. And THAT, my friends, is where all the creative claims from either man get incredibly muddy. If you’ve ever listened to or read anything by his friend and former assistant Mark Evanier (if you haven’t, please do so because the man has photographic recollection), you’ll learn that Jack’s mind was truly like no other. He was a literal fountain of ideas that never shut off. NEVER. His wife, Roz, had to become the family chauffeur because if Kirby was at the wheel and thinking too much about what was gonna happen to the FF or Thor or whatever he might drive right off the road, which apparently happened more than once! Also, he wrote as he drew, meaning he made up the story as he went along. Evanier would ask him, “Hey, Jack, what’s gonna happen in the next Demon?,” Jack would tell him, then when the issue came out it would be totally different, Evanier would point it out, and Jack would have no CLUE it wasn’t what he originally “planned” to do. So unless you gave the man a full script with panel-to-panel breakdowns like Steve Gerber did for Destroyer Duck, you never quite knew what story you were going to get back. Heck, Jack HIMSELF wouldn’t know until he was completely done, because he’d toss and draw new pages as he went along. So my ultimate point is this: Stan Lee can talk until the cows come home about “I came up with that character; I definitely tweaked that; oh, yeah, that whole thing was my idea,” yadda-yadda-yadda, but whatever he may have said or done with Jack Kirby in person or over the phone or through the mail, it really didn’t matter because y’know what? The King was gonna do what The King was gonna do. In fact, The King didn’t KNOW what he was gonna do until he was actually DOING it. Wrap your minds around THAT, True Believers!

[@johnrunion5357]

all stan lee had to do was stick to the same lie.

[@comixamples524]

Guys stop. Stan Lee has admitted himself to the Marvel Mathod which is the underling plot of an issue Beginning, Middle, and End. Than Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko would draw anything and everything without restriction than Stan would go back and right the story. A good picture is nice to look at BUT a good story keeps you coming back for more. Stan may not of "created" the characters but he gave them life. A personality.

[@cha5]

COMIXamples Actually the “Marvel Method” involved the artist (Kirby or Ditko) plotting the story and Stan scripting the dialogue, this has been born out by Kirby’s plot notes off panel on his original art and by other artists such as Gil Kane and Jim Steranko mentioning that was how the Bullpen was run.

[@mesolithicman164]

@@cha5 John Romita Sr said Stan's spoken plot was the revolutionary breakthrough in comics storytelling because it gave the artist freedom to pace things visually. And Kirby was a master at that. It gave the artists freedom and Stan could exactly tailor his dialogue to the pictures and place the word balloons anywhere in the panel for story flow. Before that, all the balloons just sat at the top of the panel in a very undynamic fashion.

[@cha5]

@@mesolithicman164 Steve Ditko had an opposite view of the “Marvel Method” as did Wally Wood, Both men felt overtime that it constrained them more often than not when it came to story plotting. Not that either man or Jack Kirby would have been a proponent of the “Mort Weisinger Method” of storytelling. 😏

[@edmonddantes3640]

Anyone who is familiar with Kirby's Challengers Of The Unknown knows who created the Fantastic Four.

[@mesolithicman164]

Challengers of the Unknown is a good strip, but it is essentially 4 generic guys doing stuff. The Fantastic Four are separate defined characters that interact with each other with contasting ages, personalities, powers and a female. Personally, I don't think that subtlety of thought was Jack's strong point. That feels like Stan saying, "What if Johnny is always clashing with Ben?", human interest was Stan's thing, that's why Spidey was interesting as a character, he was more than just a 'Superhero'. I don't think you find that kind of interest in Jack's later work. Plus his own unedited dialogue was not good. It's one thing designing a costume, there are thousands of costumed characters but the special ones are those that are still going strong all these years later and that's down to a writer's input. Kirby was an idea machine but Stan Lee made Jack's designs come to life.

[@randalwung8715]

From recent articles I’ve read, my position on the whole “Who created what?” debate comes down to this: Because Kirby and Ditko were both freelancers at the time without formal contracts, it was legally possible for them to contest the copyrights on any characters they created or co-created when those copyrights expired (which is exactly what the Kirby family later did). In other words, the big corporate concern was that Jack and Steve could end up OWNING those characters. However, if Stan Lee, who was the ONLY official employee of Atlas/Marvel back then, could prove he was the SOLE creator of anything and everything-whether it was true or not-then all his work would belong to Marvel (now Disney) free and clear. Therefore, devoted company man he’s always been, Stan’s unstated assignment over the decades has been to not only claim or insinuate he created everything himself, but during the ongoing Kirby estate litigations (which were only recently, and favorably, resolved) he openly stated in court: “Yes, I created those characters.” Look up the transcripts if you don’t believe me. Now for the sake of his public image he’s been willing in recent years to use the term “co-creator” but, hey, as far as I’m concerned, what you say under oath in fucking court is, well, what you say under oath in fucking court. So, yeah, maybe those other guys drew them and contributed to the stories involving them but, gosh darn it, all those beloved heroes and villains wouldn’t exist today if it wasn’t for good ol’ Stan the Man. God bless Marvel Comics!

[@chrisevansmustacheride4757]

Randal Wung well said my friend. Its perfect. I wish people could understand and stop whining. Now Jacks money hungry family was suddenly interested in pops work now that money is really rolling in. Jack should have stod up gor himself and fought Marvel not Stan.

[@rbiznezz2]

@@chrisevansmustacheride4757 you missed Randal's sarcasm

[@masonmcdixon9294]

The weird thing is i remember my dad taking me to the movies on Sundays and they had very short films before the main on and one actualy looked like Spiderman in black in white, and another looked like Batman. They had names like The spider, The Bat and they were from the 40s . I guess many were old stuff recreated and made colorful ... only saw like 5 episodes of each

[@hydrolito]

The Bat was made in 1926, Bat Whisperer in 1933, plus other versions later, The Spider a pulp magazine in 1933, and made into a short serial movies in as The Spider's web where he battles a villain called the Octopus. Also the Shadow 1930, Chandu the magician1930 on radio, later in films, Green Hornet 1936 on radio and other characters came out in pulp magazines, radio and movies.

[@johnrunion5357]

TCJ ARCHIVE Jack Kirby Interview: "www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/"

[@macsnafu]

I'm not going to say that Stan contributed nothing to the creations and stories, Jack was definitely not good at naturalistic dialogue, but Jack was an incredibly creative idea man, as should be obvious from his later creations in the 1970s. The Fantastic Four is largely a reinvention of the Challengers of the Unknown, which Kirby created for DC a mere few years before the FF.

[@sanny8716]

It seems to me that while a lot of ideas came from Kirby, Lee was responsible for writing characters. I mean, Challengers of the Unknown was just a bunch of scientists, but in Fantastic Four every character had a unique personality. Basically saying that Lee only wrote dialogues after Kirby did all the work would be as untrue as saying that Kirby only did the art

[@macsnafu]

@@sanny8716 Okay, I have to admit that the FF had a lot more personality and character than the COTU. Maybe Kirby learned something from Lee because his later creations certainly showed more characterization as well.

[@sanny8716]

@@macsnafu the amount of effort from Lee also probably differs from issue to issue. With the amount of titles he needed to write for I wouldn't be surprised if there WERE occasions were he just said something like "Just write a story where they fight that villain they already encountered before" or where Kirby came up with a story and Lee said "Sounds great! Let's do this". Almost impossible to tell what extent it was happening to, though.

[@josephwilliammarek9566]

One thing people overlook is that early Marvels (such as Fantastic Four #1 and Amazing Adult Fantasy #7) were aimed at an older age demographic than what comics had been aimed at before. That can only be done by the writer. I loved the artwork, but if you look at these: In Fantastic Four #2, the Police Chief doesn't believe in Santa Claus, the early lettercols were getting letters from parents, grandparents, people in high school, college, and the military . . . these weren't for 9 year olds anymore.

[@sorcerer1975]

SMH ... 54 years ... That's really unfortunate and sad ... I've always believed Kirby co created the Marvel Universe with Stan Lee ... Along with others ... It's people like Lee who walk this world never paying to pay for what they've done ... And people talk about Karma ... I'm not so sure I believe in the " Concept " of Karma ... Maybe all of Stan' recent woes stem from ... At least in part ... From how he and Marvel screwed Jack Kirby ... The " stolen " blood ... The elder abuse ... The sexual harrasment claims ... What goes around comes around ? I guess ? I much rather be credited with a co creater role than live with knowing I profoundly " screwed " with someone's life and livelihood ... RIP King Kirby ... Ur work will live on !

[@toyhunter2903]

Stan "The Scum" Lee

[@UJR78]

Strange..?! because J comes before S and K comes before L. - Marvel Fuckers. ''Rest in peace KING''

[@acheron426]

Even to this day Stan does not want either Jack or Steve to receive any creator credit for these comics.

[@sketchstevens5859]

Richard Nevarez Steve actually denies compensation when it comes to the Spidey movies. He wants to be paid for proper credit. Jack on the other hand, should definitely get a credit in most of the movies alongside Stan.

[@davidlindsay9564]

Steve denies compensation because of his objectivism views. He created Spider-Man with minimal input from Stan. period.

[@sketchstevens5859]

David Lindsay That's quite debatable though since Stan still had a hand in the creation early on, came up with the name and gave Peter his voice. We also wouldn't have the Green Goblin as Osborn without Stan. I think that Peter Parker be far closer to Mr. A if he were solely a Ditko creation

[@davidlindsay9564]

Ditko hadn't really gotten into Objectivism yet. "Had a Hand" Wow, he gave it a name?. What a flash of genius, putting the words spider and man together. Stan had a dumb idea that a magic ring would turn Peter into a multi limbed spider ,Ditko nixed that..Stan will claim to have created the kingpin. writing "kingpin" on an index card and handing it to Romita is not "creating" Stan is hardly Peters voice, so much of Peters life comes from Ditkos life. As far as th Green Goblin, wow, THATS Stan contribution, whether GG was someone known or not is of little consequence. Stan does the easier part and then spends the time hogging the credit while others are doing the real creating and work. Stan didn't talk this way when Jack was alive, Jack would've decked him. Mr. A as dense as it is, is really good. Stan got to "reinvent" DC carries and has all the top talent wanting to work on it, and it tanked, totally disaster. That says it all.

[@harveyabel1354]

Kuwabara Sama There was some unintentionally hilarious dialogue in Mr. A. though...

[@hughcipher66]

I think the proof they collabed is in Stan Lee's 1st comments on the creation of FF & the fact Kirby didnt create any really iconic chatecters at DC besides what Darksied would become. When at Marvel the charecters that came out of the Kirby & Lee mostly are iconic today

[@harryfarley3647]

What iconic characters did Lee create before and after his association with Kirby? NONE. Kirby created all of the heroes and villains he worked on at Marvel in the 60's. Fantastic Four was taken from Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown. He created Black Panther after seeing the civil rights movement in the mid-60's.

[@hughcipher66]

@@harryfarley3647 well he created forgettable charecters also. The Condor is one of them but i do know he created dozens if not hundreds of charecters many that are iconic. How many he created with Kirby i dont know but he definitely created iconic heros with other artist like Steve Ditko & hey Stan couldn't draw so he always created with an artist

[@toyhunter2903]

When Jack returned to Marvel in the mid 70's he created The Eternals who by the way Marvel Studios is planning a movie of these characters to be released soon. What did Stan Lee do? He did Striperella. Excelsior ! 😂😂😂

[@AliFareedMC]

@@toyhunter2903 lol Stripperella

[@wk3820]

The characters Kirby created at DC, before and after Marvel, are every bit as iconic as Marvel ones. The non-DC/non-Marvel creations are pretty darn iconic too, actually, especially if we include Atlas work before it became Marvel. Kirby teamed with Simon produced better stuff than Kirby teamed with Lee. Why? Because Simon could actually contribute.

[@garyl5128]

This interview with Jim Shooter gives an insight into the Lee/Kirby relationship, and is similar to Roy Thomas's comments: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJ27dK2rltesi7c

[@koicies998]

great video. what's the song in the background?

[@DanielleA2023]

Clearly Jack and Steve created more of the books & character than Stan did. They both have a legacy - before & after Marvel- of creation whereas Stan hasn't created anything before it since other than She Hulk & DCs Stan Lee presents ... derivatives of existing characters

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

John Romita made clear Stan was strongly involved in ploting spider-man: "We would have a verbal plot together. First it was two or three hours, then it was an hour. Stan would tell me who he would like to be the villain, and personal life "threads" he would like carried on". Flo Steinberg also made clear she sae Stan plotting with the artists. Kirby once claimed he came up with the idea of the Hulk after seeing a case of hysterical strenght, but this is false because the Hulk only transformed at night in his first appearances and the first time the Hulk transformed out of anger was in a story made by Stan Lee and Dick Ayers. Kirby also claimed he came up with the idea of the X Men but this is again false as Stan had made a story with Ditko in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 a year before and said story was clearly a protorype of what would eventually become the X Men. Kirby also claimed Stan wasn't involved in plotting but Romita disagrees, as he said: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

[@jamesakrap3824]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em I don’t think Stanley is a thief but I don’t think his stories are correct and also John and me to senior has delivered so many contradicting statements and Kirby is not perfect. He’s not entirely wrong either as other artist like Steve deco Wallywood Stan Goldberg and many Marvel artists from the 1950s 1960s and 40s used to say they got no stories or plot from him and they did it will just be loose plots

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@jamesakrap3824 According to Larry Hama, an apprentice of Wally Wood, "Woody" didn't like neither Stan nor Jack.

[@jamesakrap3824]

@@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em I can’t find any sources so So where is the evidence that he said that?

[@RodrigoGarcia-ze5em]

@@jamesakrap3824 The Comics Journal #181 (October 1995) made some interviews to comic book industry people close to Lee, in the Larry Hama interview he says this: "I remember that Woody had a few things to say about Stan’s accuser. “He’s a genius, but much less of a genius than he says he is - and he’s always claiming he created everything!”". This is a reference to the fact Kirby claimed total ownership, implying Woody, despite not liking the marvel method, didn't believe in Kirby's claims.

[@edwardwilliams2438]

Is this another noun and pronoun trope? Years have gone by in this battle of male ego vs male ego. As if no female...black...Anglo....gay, fringe contributors had no input into any of the Marvel success recipe. Why wasn't the pie big enough for all involved to reap the money and accolades. Batman...Superman.....the family estates seem to have made peace...reluctantly or otherwise. Only history will write the final pages. I'm just glad I was born in the "magic era" that I paid a thin dime for all the classic Marvel stuff....those days never to be repeated again. Lucky me....enjoy your channel...Kudos!!!

[@moonuni]

I think Stan was very creative. Then so was Steve Stan delegated a lot of work to others put had overall control

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

Was Stan that creative though if the other guys did it all? Jack made the FF. They were the same as The Challengers

[@comicbookguy6361]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 That's true, Challengers of the Unknown is a big influence on F4. BUT... I have to admit that Jack and Stan took influence in something more than that. I mean the original Human Torch created by Carl Burgos in 1939 and Plastic Man from DC created in 1941. At that time very famous characters.

[@wk3820]

@@comicbookguy6361 I love Kirby, but he was never against borrowing a good idea. The Demon is designed to look like a demon mask from an early Prince Valiant by Hal Foster, for example.

[@ComicBookHistorians]

Here are both parts 1 and 2 of this video with no background music. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnbJkmd9j7Orra8

[@youtubebitchcenter1463]

He he he Master ( skin diver ) 🥽🍆👅

Stan was a rip off “artist”