Mary vs. Anne: Who was the better Boleyn?

In the "Battle of the Boleyns", who was the more successful sister? How do we even approach this question? Let's find out...
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Intro / Outro song: Silent Partner, "Greenery" [ • Greenery - Silent Part... ]
Images (from Wikimedia Commons, unless otherwise stated):
Portrait of Mary Boleyn attributed to Hans Holbein the Younger. Held by Hever Castle.
Cover for the first edition of Phillipa Gregory’s The Other Boleyn Girl (2001).
DVD cover for the TV movie of The Other Boleyn Girl (BBC; 2003).
Promotional poster for the film The Other Boleyn Girl (Columbia; 2008).
Cover for Mary Boleyn: The True Story of Henry VIII's Favourite Mistress by Josephine Wilkinson (2011).
Cover for Mary Boleyn: 'The Great and Infamous Whore’ by Alison Weir (2012).
Cover for Mary Boleyn: In a Nutshell by Sarah Bryson (2015).
Portrait of Anne Boleyn by an unknown English artist (late 16th century, based on a work of circa 1533-1536). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Pierre Gringoire, Louis XII of France and his third wife, English princess Mary Tudor, from a book detailing the pageants given for Mary's reception into France (c. 1514). From www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.a...
Detail from a portrait of Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon, attributed to Jan Gossaert (c. 1516). Held in the collection of the Earl of Yarborough; Brocklesby Park, Lincolnshire.
Portrait of Queen Claude of France, Duchess of Brittany by an unknown French artist (16th century).
Portrait of François I, King of France, influenced by Jean Clouet (c. 1530). Held by the Louvre Museum.
Portrait of William Cary, or Carey, husband of Mary Boleyn by an unknown author (c. 1528). From thepeerage.com
The Field of the Cloth of Gold by an unknown artist of the British school (c. 1545). Held by the Royal Collection, on display at Hampton Court Palace.
Detail from the Westminster Tournament Roll showing Henry VIII tilting (jousting) in front of Katherine of Aragon (1511). Held by the College of Arms.
Portrait of Thomas Wolsey by an unknown artist (1589-1595, based on a work of circa 1520). Held by the National Portrait Gallery.
Reconstruction drawing of York Place (c.1530) © Historic Royal Palaces.
Portrait (detail) of Henry VIII from the studio of Hans Holbein the younger (after 1537). Held by the Walker Art Gallery.
Silver Falcon Badge of Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I of England. Source: Thomas Willement, Regal Heraldry: The Armorial Insignia Of The Kings And Queens of England, from Coeval Authorities, London, 1821, p.69 & plate XV (b).
Uncrowned falcon carving in the Beauchamp Tower of the Tower of London, thought to have been carved by one of the men arrested alongside Anne.

[@rainlawson7085]

Anyone who survived Henry Tudor is a success.

[@emilykozak7249]

Anne didn’t she got beheaded

[@catherinerickard699]

500 years down line , and henry’s reign was nothing compared to 2020!

[@emilykozak7249]

Catherine Rickard I mean 40,000-70,000 people where estimated to died in King Henry VIII Reign due to him.

[@boldbearings]

@@emilykozak7249 Thank you. If nothing else, the coming of 2021 offers a reprieve from the last year's deranged obsession with slander.

[@ebonyloveivory]

Honestly such a sad yardstick.😭😖

[@yellit1975]

My vote goes to Mary. She survived being at Henry’s court and left descendants.

[@nataliaalmeida-nacillustra5954]

which is also what humans are biologically programmed to do, so I agree

[@sandrasmith9617]

Agreed.

[@NCKrypotonite33]

Absolutely!

[@alicenthightower9161]

@@nataliaalmeida-nacillustra5954 Ew.

[@sandragrundy1516]

Descendants? Elizabeth 1 wasn't chopped liver!

[@ameliecarre4783]

If your family is overbearing and over-ambitious, be a disappointment early on. They'll leave you on the side, where you'll get a chance to escape the inevitable stress you'd suffer for seizing and keeping power, the corruption that goes with it, and the eventual fall from a great height. Mary wins.

[@monarch3495]

#TudorLifeHacks

[@sidheleanan]

#BlackSheep4Lyfe

[@Cass648]

#tudorlifehacks

[@imjustbored24]

Lmao at these hashtags

[@AimeeVignes]

Came here faster than Execution Orders by Henry VIII

[@Ashley-vs8nu]

Oh gosh you're not right for that🤣🤣🤣

[@annjohnson6193]

Lol!

[@mzprettywings]

😱😆😆😆😆

[@TheTam0613]

This made me snort my coffee by laughing!!!

[@EP-yd7vz]

Nice!

[@daiyajotgrewal6999]

The Boleyns had the last laugh. Anne gave birth to one of the greatest rulers of England. And through Mary's line, one of her descendants sits on the throne today, Elizabeth II

[@VeracityLH]

Indeed. Mary Boleyn has tons of descendants including several U.S. presidents. Her 2 Carey children had 30 children between them, a great many surviving to have children of their own. Since George had no children and Anne's only child died childless, Mary certainly wins on that score!

[@Cindy-by3ho]

Queen Elizabeth ll is of German descent.

[@lindseybonnar2683]

@@Cindy-by3ho yes however if you look at her that’s true you will see that she is a descendant of Mary :)

[@debbiem9005]

I think Kate Middleton is a decendant of Mary

[@susanneduffy8157]

@@Cindy-by3ho yes, but I would suggest you have a closer look at a family tree for HRM Elizabeth II. George I of Hanover was the son of an English Princess - a distant Cousin of HRH Queen Anne - teh Hanover line being chosen, to ensure the Stuart line (Catholic) did not ascend the throne.

[@jjudy5869]

Who died in their own bed, with their head still attached to their shoulders? I have to wonder if Mary saw Stafford as a way out of the dangers of Court.

[@alysencameron361]

That concept was presented in the novel, "The Other Boleyn Girl". I don't know if it was included in the movie,

[@SafetySpooon]

@@alysencameron361 It was presented in Norah Lofts, ages ago.

[@alysencameron361]

@@SafetySpooon Then it has been established as a strong possibility. I won't say fact, because a document claiming it has not been revealed, as of yet.

[@moodylittleowl]

or she did fall pregnant and marry as an oopsie - which still means getting married to someone to whom you are at very least very attracted do...a serious achievement in those times

[@juanamora9513]

😉 right

[@faefolkarts]

"Hey, can I sleep with your wife?" "What? No! Why would you ask that??" "I'll give you money." "...keep talking."

[@CrunchyASMR84]

Lol! Facts 🤣

[@revade6698]

But can you really blame William Carey for allowing (and seeking to profit by) it? The sad reality is that to refuse that tyrannical king's, um, "request" would have meant political (if not physical) "suicide" and only the most devout Christian man would have even considered doing so. As Gerard Butler's character asked his subordinate in the movie Hunter Killer: "Is it better to be right or alive?" Unfortunately, as we can readily see in the news today, not much has changed...as the author of Ecclesiastes wrote OVER 3,000 years ago (1:9): "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." In any event, I have to cast my vote for Mary Boleyn, who actually: 1) married for love (a rarity in any era); 2) died a natural death; and 3) begat a long line of descendants that continues to this day.

[@faefolkarts]

@@revade6698 I mean, I definitely agree. I was just making a joke of the nature of it.

[@revade6698]

@@faefolkarts Hi, Ace Pixie. Thanks for your gracious - and unexpected! - reply. Actually, I thought your joke was very witty - it certainly gave me a smile. Anyway, my apologies for making you feel uncomfortable about it. I was just wanting to add to the discussion. Take care!

[@faefolkarts]

@@revade6698 I get that you were making commentary. I welcome it! You didn't make me uncomfortable at all. Also, I get very few notifications so I tend to see everything I do receive and respond where I see appropriate. You're a thinker, and that's good

[@birdbrain9625]

I believe that Mary was the wiser of the two sisters didn't let greed go to her head, married for love, and got as far away from the trouble her family would pay dearly for in the end 🤔

[@alysencameron361]

Your belief could be so. And, there may have been discussion between the two as who was better suited to be Henry's wife, given the international requirements that came with the title. As Dr Kat outlines Anne had the gift of languages whereas Mary didn't. I believe this was a key factor in the girls' education while in the French court, too.

[@coolcath]

Who is to say she married for love? Could have been anything such as assault or lust to result in her pregnancy. Then she had to marry.

[@jsygurl]

I understood that Mary appealed to Henry and Anne for support in her second marriage saying "I had rather beg my bread with him than to be the greatest queen in Christendom. And I believe verily ... he would not forsake me to be a king"

[@charlottsie2187]

I agree

[@Annasea666]

Meh. You read too much fiction

[@mariahunter9882]

I believe the stories of Mary's promiscuity in France were overstated. By a lot. She very possibly was "selected" by Francis I but she may not have had much opportunity to say no. She may not have been particularly willing about his advances and he later stained her reputation in revenge. Certainly this ha been done before. And if her real character was bad, would she have been suggested and accepted as one of the ladies for Katherine of Aragon, Queen of England and well known for her piety sand righteous conduct? I find that unlikely.

[@beth7935]

Agreed!

[@account_nameonline6420]

So true. Plus women couldn’t win. It’s depressing to learn how women were thought of then

[@elbaestridge6503]

I agree with you.

[@ragantate3995]

Thankyou. I think it’s insane to compare people who went through something like this. It was wrong all around and they didn’t deserve that evil to happen to them. The nerve of anyone trying to make them look bad at all.

[@genna2586]

That seems like a very reasonable speculation and Mary was simply being used. In the end Mary survived and left a legacy through her descendants.

[@bennett8535]

By my own criteria I'd say Mary. Success and fame aren't always the same thing.

[@Odanti]

Except... If we didn't have Queen Anne and King Henry Vlll, you would never have heard of Mary Boleyn. So...I would pick Anne Boleyn as the most successful one.

[@bennett8535]

I’m not sure that I agree with you. History is full of highly successful people that are not well known today. For every JP Morgan, there are dozens if not hundreds of CJ Walkers, and for every Stephen Hawkins many Edward Jenners. Like I said, fame among the general public, doesn’t automatically equal success. Plus I’m not sure that getting your head lopped off after only the proverbial 1,000 days is a sign of the successful conclusion of your endeavor. It’s true that we know about Mary primarily due to Henry VIII and Anne. But the same logical argument could be said about Anne; if history had played out differently (say for example, no Henry or perhaps a different Henry) Anne too might be equally less known. And I think that if Anne hadn’t been born Mary still would have made her mark in history, albeit in a different way. Let’s face it, the Boleyn family was incredibly ambitious, and noble families used their womenfolk as pawns in their games. So even if Anne had never existed, or Henry not made king, the family would have still found ways to make their offspring useful. Yes, it would have been different, but as a daughter of a very powerful family, Mary still would have played a role in English history one way or the other. And, as I maintain in my opening, you can be incredibly successful in your field, and yet be popularly unknown; in my view the only way that Anne beats Mary is in the fame department. But is that success? I’m not convinced that it is.

[@ridingtheroad185]

@@Odanti we might have heard more about Mary without Anne. Maybe we would have heard more about her son, the rumors he was Henry's child, etc...

[@pedanticradiator1491]

Plus in a sense Mary had the last laugh as the present monarch of the UK and several US presidents are her descendants

[@pedanticradiator1491]

@@ridingtheroad185 actually it was more likely her daughter was Henry's than her son

[@dianewalker9154]

Anne gave us two queens, herself and her daughter. But Mary gave us a flourishing family tree, which is probably the better legacy.

[@bertrandlechat4330]

Mary I had no children..

[@elliejoyb]

Apparently she's an ancestor of queen Elizabeth II

[@katiewest7908]

Mary is my husband's 12th great grandmother. Not only does he not care much about legacies, but he avoids politics at all costs.

[@sklwuk]

@@bertrandlechat4330 Diane meant Elizabeth's aunt Mary Boleyn, not her half-sister Queen Mary I

[@Cat-yi5mz]

@@bertrandlechat4330 Mary Boleyn, not Mary I

[@vidaudink3044]

" Success" is so subjective... Overall, I think Mary, ultimately, was more successful than Anne.

[@sandrasmith9617]

Yes, because she was a survivor.

[@jessicasirotin7982]

Dr Kat - making Friday 100% better

[@purdycat15]

Though think Anne of cleaves wives was the smartest agreeing to divorce as it definitely saved her life going on Henry viii track record Feel for both the girls both used by thier family for thier own amusement

[@BrittleSun]

I hear Anne of Cleves got a very tidy divorce settlement and lived the rest of her life in plentiful comfort, free from the constraints of marriage. She did the best out of all Henry’s wives, I think. I’d have taken the money and retired to a country manor too.

[@crystalclimenhage9980]

@@BrittleSun I heard Catherine part had money willed to her ....and her husband died

[@ShiningFriendship87]

My vote goes to Mary. She presumably married for love, didn’t lose her head, and still has living descendants in existence today.

[@pedanticradiator1491]

Including the present British monarch

[@Elly3981]

@@pedanticradiator1491 Really?

[@pedanticradiator1491]

@@Elly3981 yes Elizabeth II is a descendant through her mother of Lettice Knollys granddaughter of Mary Boylen

[@Elly3981]

@@pedanticradiator1491 That's interesting. There is a possibility that King Henry might have fathered Mary Boleyn's children but he never acknowledged them because he had no way of knowing if they were his or Mary's husband's children.

[@pedanticradiator1491]

@@Elly3981 in a book I read about Lettice Knollys who was a member of Elizabeth I's household then later became the wife of her favourite the Earl of Leicester and was banished from court it is speculated that Mary's daughter Catherine (Lettices mother) was very likely Henry's child but the writer is unsure about her brother as by the time he was born Henry and Anne were a couple and Mary was living away from the court

[@dewrock2622]

If you look at the end result, Mary kept her head, married the man she loved, and the present queen is her desendant, so in light of history she was more successful, although Anne was queen qnd the mother of1 the first Elizabeth, that was the most successful queen in English history... What happened to the child Mary had with William Stafford?

[@ReadingthePast]

Great points and, of course, she’s not just the ancestor for the current royal family - I would love a genealogist to weigh in on whether we have any idea of how many of her direct descendants are alive today!

[@Miss_AnonyMoose]

@@rickyellis8505 Who burned what? We are talking about Mary Boleyn not Mary Tudor aka Mary I of England

[@fabricdragon]

@@rickyellis8505 uh, where in the histories did Mary Boleyn burn anyone? She never even had the authority to try it?

[@lynnedelacy2841]

I’m assuming Ricky Ellis is referring to Elizabeth l

[@songwolffarm]

I was wondering that myself. What happened to that 3rd child? Seems mysterious...and I love a good mystery.

[@cheristephens8675]

As a descendent of Mary Boleyn, I am going with Mary. Thank you. This was fascinating.

[@miiaa332]

if u were a descendant of Mary Boleyn, you will be a descendant of Anne as well (I mean they are sisters so- )

[@debbiem9005]

@@miiaa332 no you would be a decendant of Mary and her parents, Anne had 1 child who was childless so Anne has no descendants.

[@Elly3981]

@@debbiem9005 Correct. King Henry VII has no direct descendants either but his parents did through Henry's sisters

[@robertkirkpatrick4935]

I'm a descendant of her as well thru her son Henry

[@TheVelvetKitten]

Anne was the more successful sister based on the fact that her daughter Elizabeth was a glorious Queen. But really you can't really compare them at all. Apples and oranges. It's amazing to me that Elizabeth had to grow up knowing her Father had her Mother executed. So horrific.

[@prcrouch79]

I remember when I watched “The Other Boleyn Girl” in the theatre and it was a bit surprising to hear people sitting around me gasp in shock that Anne Boleyn was executed. They didn’t know she died in real life.

[@justineharper3346]

It kind of hurts my brain that people don’t know that

[@beverlyfletcher4458]

Anne gave us Elizabeth I: I rest my case. Great, and very welcome, video. Thank you.

[@jasonmack2569]

Mary kept her head: I rest my case. But I will agree that it was a great video.😉

[@beverlyfletcher4458]

@@jasonmack2569 I was going to say that first! great minds ...

[@jasonmack2569]

@@beverlyfletcher4458 So true, so true my friend.

[@pedanticradiator1491]

Elizabeth I left no descendants her aunt Mary did and several became very.famous including a few US presidents and the current British monarch

[@paulwoodhouse4757]

Anne has the historical legacy. She's arguably one of the most famous women in history - up there with Princess Diana. She mothered Elizabeth I. Influenced Henrys break with the Catholic Church ... which was huge! Come on people!

[@courtiestew]

Paul-Lee Woodhouse but does fame necessarily= success?

[@paulwoodhouse4757]

@@courtiestew True

[@gwinniboots]

Fame doesn’t make a better person, as we can all see in the media.

[@reassimilate668]

Finally someone in the comments with sense! I agree wholeheartedly. Elizabeth was the Greatest Monarch in English History. Anne lives on in History.

[@Annasea666]

No one would ever remember mary if not for fictional (ie, made up) portrayal

[@jamellfoster6029]

Mary Boleyn's kids did strongly resemble Elizabeth I (although they were 1st cousins)... They looked like they could have been siblings...

[@humangeneric777]

Having survived Henry's affections relatively unscathed and with her head still attached, I'd say Mary wins hands down.

[@mariposahorribilis]

Seems like Henry treated his mistresses better than his wives! Re: Mary's second marriage, maybe she knew her siblings were acting in a way that, if discovered, would lead to the family's downfall, and did something that would get her disowned for her own protection.

[@ebonyloveivory]

He treated them well as long as they provided him an heir (aka Jane) or obeyed his orders (aka Anne of Cleves)

[@danielasarmiento30]

Being able to claim you're a direct descendant of Mary Boleyn must be nice. A part of a grand player of history lives on in you

[@scarletbitch866]

I literally said, "Ooooh!" with excitement when I saw the title.

[@moniquelegarda1842]

I say Mary. She survived, her descendants thrived, and it seems she found true love in the end.

[@reassimilate668]

Anne. She produced Queen Elizabeth, a successful Monarch who ruled for over 45 years. Also didn't settle for being a mistress, although she was murdered for it. It's kind of not her fault.

[@susannahfox7188]

As a descendant of Mary Boleyn and Henry Tudor, via progeny on the Mayflower (Pilgrims), (through Catherine's line), I would say that Anne and Elizabeth played very key roles and burned brightly. Going against the Catholic Church was a very good thing. The candle burned out. But the legacy of their actions remain. Mary symbolized her innate ability to survive and continue to live, in those that follow her and have her as an ancestress. Why does one have to be better than the other? They are of the same family, they are part of my family. It is good, but also tragic.....as life is....often. It is only through Jesus Christ that we have our true origin, and destiny. And he's coming to get us soon.....we are all daughters and sons of the one true King. Blessings to you all. As Elizabeth was reported to have quoted: Psalm 118: 22-23 The stone which the builders refused is become the chief cornerstone. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

[@Glorindellen]

add me to the list of those descended from Mary Boleyn through her daughter Catherine.

[@lexomil1414]

As you pointed in the introduction, we started getting interested in Mary Boleyn only after The Other Boleyn Girl by Philippa Gregory. I had never heard about her in my history class (In France) before reading that book. So in my opinion, the importance of a person as regards how they marked History is the most important and thus Anne Boleyn, is the 'winner' even if it cost her life. There is still passion around her 500 years later, she's got fans and worshippers but also haters. I love Anne dearly and her wit, her personality, her rise in society and her accession to the status of Queen makes her unforgettable and eternal. I am glad you dissipated the inaccuracies in the novel, I started reading about Anne after reading the book and realised that the author followed the path of 'gossips' as if they were true facts. It's a pity but it's fiction and should not be taken for granted. The problem is that with the movies and the series, people who are not fond of History as we are here might believe this. And that annoys me because Anne Boleyn deserves better. Mary survived and good for her, was she happy, I do hope so. Thank you so much for these very interesting videos each week. I could listen to you for hours!

[@onlygrands2012]

To be fair Philipa tells you what is fact and what is conjecture.

[@justanoldcowboy8326]

Just another one of Mary's grand kids says, "she wins."

[@sistermadrigalmorning233]

My husband is a descendant of Mary-- my mom is HUGE fan of Anne and freaked out when she realised her grandkids have her blood. Lol.

[@reinhartaltavillaferrara3546]

I'm the great grandson of Charlemagne 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑👑

[@andrealabonair3519]

Then I guess I'm related to your husband. In 2019 we a geneologist tracked down my cousin on my dad's side and revealed that we were descendents of Mary Bolyne

[@sistermadrigalmorning233]

@@andrealabonair3519 hello cousin by marriage. 😂

[@andrealabonair3519]

@@sistermadrigalmorning233Hey!

[@becky3920]

Mary is my 14th great grandmother. Looks like I’m a cousin too lol

[@ashenfeather]

I am actually a descendant of Mary on my paternal grandmother’s side. :)

[@PAM-cw5wo]

I always choose Mary over Anne and its because she is more of a human than Anne was. She knew her ground and fought for it. She was level-headed and wiser for staying away from the toxicity the court had. She never dreamed of more than she could have. She stick to what she knows is right for her. And she raised her family as good-hearted and strong as she was seeing that she was able to create a line of successful and influential people in English history. She was not the queen her sister Anne was but she was the Queen of the successful family she created with love and compassion. Anne became the Queen. She might have been happy for achieving it but her legacy has been tainted of whatever she did in her time. Her rank never outweighed all her crimes. As a woman, I'd work hard for my dreams but in the right way.

[@normastone1044]

Read "500 Years of Lies" by Hayley Nolan. You'll understand Anne a lot better.

[@lesleywilliams1210]

@@normastone1044 my recommendation to Pam, is "Anne Boleyn, A new life of England's tragic Queen" by Joanna Denny.

[@TJ-gm2uy]

Anne and Mary are the perfect examples of be careful what you wish for.

[@rheacain3522]

From what I can tell--Mary Boleyn is a great-grandmother of mine. I would love to know more about Henry Carey as he appears to be my 13th Great Grandfather.

[@genevievesylvester5968]

Wow!

[@somethingelse6337]

Mary Boleyn is my 12th great grandmother, and Henry Carey is my 11th great grandfather. Rhea, there’s lots online about Henry Carey.

[@susanneduffy8157]

I do not remember did Mary and William CAREY have children? Cos if not -welllllllllllll, you can see where i am going with that, Rhea.

[@jayoungr]

I notice a lot of people saying that part of Mary's success was in "marrying the man she loved"--but didn't Anne do the same? Philippa Gregory aside, don't most people accept that Anne most likely had feelings for Henry, even if it went sour later?

[@annmorris2585]

I think Anne herself was ambitious and certainly her family were. The Howards were always looking for advancement.

[@einezcrespo2107]

Well yes Anne did love Henry but she became arrogant in her power and ambition. Her parents and brother weren't any different and that was the cause of their downfall.

[@susanneduffy8157]

but did she love Henry? or did she accept him to promote her religious beliefs? and further her family's interests? ANNE BOLEYN :500 YEARS OF LIES is worth a read.

[@alexlefay]

I don't think she was in love with him, she seemed to be content in her position and with the king. Not the same thing.

[@lesleywilliams1210]

@@einezcrespo2107 no, her downfall was not giving Henry a male heir. Nothing else would have mattered. Also the Boleyns weren't so much aligned with the Howards. The latter remained Catholic, whereas the Boleyns supported the new religion.

[@marshavilkas3512]

I think both won in the end. Anne gave us Queen Elizabeth I, one of the greatest queens of England. Mary gave us Catherine Carey, who had Lettice Knollys. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother is a direct descendant of Mary Boleyn through her daughter Catherine Carey. And thus the Boleyn name lives on through Queen Elizabeth II and her descendants. In the end, the Boleyns had the final laugh

[@sharonsmith583]

Love 💘 this topic! I think the answer to this question obviously depends on how you define success!

[@pippy68p65]

Her husband looked quiet handsome. The sweating sickness is quiet fascinating. It just eventually dissapeared. I wish covid would do the same.

[@pippy68p65]

@Helen Gillis yes I'm aware. It's certainly one virus thats a conundrum. I believe in America over 1000 more cases have been found? Is this true?

[@nataliegreco7439]

I definitely feel that each persons definition of “success” would be the driving force in which sister you choose. Anne was obviously the more successful sister when you gage it based on status reached/achievements. But personally I’m team Mary since I consider keeping your head, finding (possible) love and being an ancestor of the current royal family more successful lol. I do wonder if the definition of success would be very different for the 16th century mindset vs the 21st century mindset. I think it would be! As always another amazing video Dr Kat! I’m a Boleynaholic so I love any video featuring them! I do think Catherine Carey is a very interesting character in Tudor history and would love to see a video on her!!

[@beth7935]

I agree that it's entirely about what each person wants- Anne obviously wanted to be queen, & she was. And we have no idea if she'd say her life was still successful even tho she was executed. We definitely put our modern ideas on it- lots of us aren't religious & are very afraid to die, but Anne had very strong religious convictions even for her time, & may have seen pushing England toward religious reform as well worth dying for, & even more so to have her daughter as the great Protestant queen. And we think romantic love is one of the most important things in life, but it really wasn't in the 16thc. Most people would've seen Mary marrying "beneath her" as a failure.

[@k.a.236]

Could Mary Boleyn not have remarried someone of a higher social standing if she had accidentally become pregnant? Even if it wasn't her 2nd husband's child, he would have gained considerable social collateral considering how high the Boleyns were at that time? It just doesnt seem "necessary" that Mary marry Stafford, even if she fell pregnant. It makes sense to me that it was for love.

[@SafetySpooon]

No one of a higher social standing would let a *nobody's* child be his heir. (& by "nobody", I mean the father)

[@k.a.236]

@@SafetySpooon That makes sense. Still, if doesnt necessarily have to be the husband's heir if he already has children from a previous marriage. Also, it would increase the husband's proximity to the king so maybe it would be a worthwhile tradeoff 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@Melanie-jy2nw]

I will forever say Anne was the most successful one. She literally changed England forever when she influenced Henry’s break with Rome and brought Protestantism to England. She mothered Elizabeth 1 and in doing so is partially responsible for the Golden Tudor era.

[@1607hannah1]

I always find it so wild how much Lettice Knollys looked like Elizabeth I, which is why I think for sure Catherine Carey was Henry's daughter. But I do think it's a shame both Anne and Mary are seemingly pitched against each other. We always seem to have to do this to women throughout history, when basically all women were living and surviving in what was an incredibly tough time, no matter how used to it they were. We should celebrate the achievements of both Boleyn women. Though please do know I loved the video and I think it's such an interesting topic.

[@Armylady74]

I always thought both children were Henry’s children. Elizabeth was highly jealous of Lettice for looking like her and was more beautiful!

[@TheLinniB]

As one of Mary's descendants through Henry, I thank you for your thorough research and passion for the Boleyn's and royal history, obviously I can't get enough and wish we knew what happened to baby Stafford.

[@robertkirkpatrick4935]

I'm also a descendant of Henry's

[@dotcom52]

Mary has always fascinated me. I wonder about the sisters true relationship to one another. Great topic.

[@sophitsa79]

You know you're a master when you can contribute information and insight to a topic that at first seems tired and exhausted

[@Thepourdeuxchanson]

I always appreciate the even-handedness of Dr. Kat's speculations where speculation is pretty much all we have to go on. She never seems to have that didactic attitude that some historians have - the one that says "this is what I think, and therefore this is how it was." I like her questioning and balanced mind.

[@08andylee]

Anne was the Better Boleyn, but Mary was the better person and ended up way happier. Mary was the one who ended up the "Most Happi"

[@dragonclaws9367]

These two ladies would marvel that we speak their names still today. They are both immortal. I bet they never imagined that future people would be fascinated by their lives. I think Mary wins by surviving and leaving descendants but Anne blazed like a comet and gave us the greatest female monarch..I really can't choose. I love them both.

[@divadaedalus]

Dr. Kat, one of the things that I appreciate about your videos is that you recognize the dangers of reframing history through a modern cultural lens. That being said, while the video was intriguing and well done I agree with you that it’s almost impossible to chose. By modern standards I would choose Mary because she apparently did find stability, love and founded a line that lasted for generations. Reminiscent of Victorian romances and modern mini series. On the other hand, without Anne, Cranmer and other Reformers would we have Anglicanism? So many modern interpretations of Anne focus on her personality, and apparent greed for power while ignoring the fact that she was a deeply spiritual woman who was an ardent reformer, that, and her inability to produce a male heir, led to her downfall and the villainous entrapment that climaxed with her execution. In that sense she was a martyr to her Faith. I couldn’t possibly choose one over the other. Thank you for your site. Hope Gabriel is growing and thriving. Hope you and Jamie are getting some sleep. You are such great parents.

[@Whydtheyaddusernames]

I would definitely say Anne, with that being said Mary we quite iconic as well. But Anne gave birth to one of the most- if not the most important monarchs in the world. She also completely changed a country- and quite honestly the world. She was very well educated and outspoken.

[@debbiem9005]

Elizabeth had no children so she ended the line, Mary has many descendants

[@irinakermong1217]

The thing with Mary in my very humble opinion is that we know very little about her, her personality, etc. So the reason why she attracts the attention of historical fiction writers is that since she's very close to big players of her time, as Anne Boleyn's sister, it makes it easy to either give her any kind of personality or motivation the writer sees fit to give her, or, more simply, for the reader to self-insert into her to judge the characters surrounding her. It's kind of the reason why I have a kneejerk reaction to people saying how interesting Mary Boleyn is when we know so little about her, but I do think it's a bit of a tragedy she didn't leave more behind, since it would provide us with invaluable insight about Anne.

[@LindaMeade]

Imagining Anne of Cleves and Mary Boleyn at dinner together toasting their survival

[@ismata3274]

Indeed 😂. With money and land acquired too. 👍 And not being seen as a threat(kings current lover) or someone to gain very many riches from(queen) to other courtiers gives a decent freedom otherwise would not be found for those two. Well played.

[@natty888]

Thank you for covering this as a direct descendant! 😊❤️

[@maryrhudy9250]

Mary. She's the smarter of the two. Anne forgot that if her man will screw one wife, he'll screw her over, too. And Mary lived to be a grandmother.

[@graphiquejack]

Mary was not known for intelligence. Try again.

[@DannyoffireAwaken]

Well Mary outlived Anne. But we all remember Anne.

[@reinhartaltavillaferrara3546]

We remember Anne because she was discarded and beheaded

[@jaycorwin1625]

Just personally I'll vote for Mary as the more successful, and I'm also glad she didn't lose her head. I'm one of those countless direct descendants of hers.

[@hermalindasalais3638]

Mary was the most successful, because she was able to have freedom in her choice of her last husband and Anne became Queen for a very short time with a mad homicidal king.

[@naomipagecoachingreddragon5991]

This is the opposite of what was portrayed in the “ other boylne girl””. In the movie it portrays Mary as the younger sister

[@Scottish-Ali-C]

I usually have something sensible to comment but this time all I’m going to say is that I’ve missed your uploads and I just think you’re fab dr kat! I really do! You’re my favourite youtube by a country mile and the fact that your niche is history well, that’s just splendid as far as I’m concerned! Keep up the great work and keep doing what you’re doing - bc it’s working! Bravo Dr Kat, bravo! 👏 👏 👏

[@kandipatton5342]

As a descendant of Mary, I found this truly interesting. I wish I could post a photo, because the resemblance to her portrait is strong

[@hummingbirdhobo]

Thank you for posting today!

[@RobinHood1969]

When you lose your head, you lose! Lol

[@geraldineponsford2932]

Thank you!!!! Perfect!!!! Exactly what I was hoping for..

[@Slayergrl99]

Oh thank god, I've been waiting all day! Need this more than ever today!!!

[@ariuuuul]

i'm so excited about this topic!

[@wickedwitch3520]

You always give me a new and fascinating perspective on history. Thank you! 🙂

[@erinfrye5725]

I particularly enjoyed this one, please keep doing what you do, you’re really great✨💕

[@t.7721]

Thank you, Dr. Kat!

[@elizabethraitanen5057]

Hurray! A new Dr. Kat video always makes my day!

[@themonarchsanonymouschanne6546]

Another great video Dr Kat!

[@lissalong7045]

That was fun to ponder over! I really enjoy your channel.

[@alirocksdauniverse]

First video of yours I've seen. Very much enjoyed it! Thank you

[@helenangus1675]

Really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you Dr Kat.

[@jenniferberensen3048]

Thank you again Dr Kat!

[@SpaceExplorer]

wonderful and so interesting!

[@elenafetter9690]

Really enjoyed your video! Learned so much about Mary I didnt know before!

[@patricknichol3384]

love your channel huge fan! how well you decipher the answers making us think.

[@pamstropes8295]

I have just discovered your channel. Your topic is one of my favourite periods in history. Just wanted to thank you for doing these videos and making them so interesting and entertaining.

[@BattyRagDoll]

This was an amazing discussion piece. Very well summarized, well presented.... thank you! This was a pleasant watch!

[@lindsaychristensen2848]

Great analysis. Very enjoyable!

[@allyharrison13]

Hi, Just want to say that I LOVE your channel. So glad that you are still making videos!! Keep up the great work its fascinating!

[@marykcherry]

Great video and great information thanks so much

[@gaylesuggs8523]

Very interesting information and good arguments at the end. Always look forward to your videos and insights,

[@annel736]

Fantastic presentation (as usual)! I'm always frustrated when historical fiction is often eventually accepted as fact and enters mythology. However, you refreshingly, keep everything clearly represented.💙💚❤ Kudos

[@Toltecgrl]

Omg you had such interesting history. I learned so much. Thank You!!

[@steinhugel]

A very interesting argument. Love what you do, please don't stop.👍❤

[@morriganwitch]

Part of my Friday night cosiness xxx thank you Dr Kat xxx

[@teriserway3224]

Ahh .. if it wasn't for Mary Boleyn, I wouldn't be here to comment. So definitely Mary!

[@samanthaalexandra8631]

I officially cannot stop watching these... Thank you, KZbin for the great recommendation ha.

[@Peachypeachykeenjellybean]

Oh my god you have no idea how much this video made my day I’ve been hyper fixated on Mary for the past year and it’s so rare to find someone actually talking about her

[@parula26]

Excellent video! I really enjoyed it. Such interesting questions to consider!

[@jamiesturch9443]

I love Dr Kat and her videos! Thank you for good intelligent information with a beautiful smile. God Bless You’

[@chrismurray2237]

I sooooo love your analyses! Than you 🌺🌸

[@mornington2427]

My vote goes to Mary, she lived and had descendants she is remembered. What more can you want.

[@emiliadashko1600]

Yeah, although we definitely aren't going to forget about Elizabeth I any time soon either

[@kmklonowski]

Your genuine kindness shines through in your videos, Dr Kat. I'm an American British history buff and I very much enjoy your videos! Keep it up! 😊

[@kristineduke4099]

thank you, love listening to your channel

[@ladyshakari]

I think mary was lucky to keep her head with that king ruling.

[@carmenpeters728]

In my opinion Henry 8 was unpredictable. I expect people walked and spoke very carefully . Anyone that avoided his wrath was not always by their wit, but by sheer luck. I thank you for your presentations. I would equally enjoy learning about the lords and ladies in waiting and servants, physicians etc. Thanks again.

[@susannahfox7188]

It's called narcissism. The Jezebel Spirit - 1 Kings 16-22. Can be had by either male or female. Ahab is the enabling spirit (male or female).

[@bethmcnabb5430]

My best friend and I are intrigued by your vlog. Thank you for your insight, research and questioning of history.