FIRST START-UP of our Heated Slab (more leaks)

We may not have insulation yet, but we now have HEAT! However, it wasn't without a few hurdles to overcome (as always)..
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#building #diyprojects #plumbing

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Curious how much it cost us for radiant heat floor? We have all the product and cost details available on our website! ⬇ www.masondixonacres.com/products/radiant-flooring-cost-spreadsheet

[@windirono5409]

Good work. I recommend that you put the hose in a bucket of water. then you can tell if air is truly escaping the system.

[@wackojacko1997]

I appreciate the video, but I can't get past the fact you installed the electrical outlet directly beneath the hot water heater. Especially when you clean out that filter and the water sprays.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Never even thought about it tbh 😂 That little screen is mostly for the first startup to catch leftover solder in the control board, my actual sediment filter should take care of future dirt so I don't anticipate needing to clean that screen very often. Good thing the outlet is GFCI 😁

[@wackojacko1997]

@@MasonDixonAcres Agreed that the GFCI takes care of it and that this really shouldn't be a big deal. It really shouldn't be a problem. It's just that from my Navy days on nuclear submarines there were plenty things that "should be okay" but you don't do them because it's "good engineering practice." I've watched most of the videos at this point on the construction and appreciate what a Gen Xer can learn from a Millennial. Also a fellow Pennsylvanian (NEPA).

[@MasonDixonAcres]

I appreciate it! Still a lottt more to come.

[@MattSapp]

Exciting progress! I hadn't noticed until today that you've got a combined space heating and DHW system. Did you consider a closed loop system for heat, and if so, what caused you to choose an open loop system instead? The system I'm designing is going closed loop for a couple reasons - glycol for freeze resistance as we're in an area that can lose power for periods of time, and with closed loop there isn't the constant introduction of minerals and dissolved oxygen to cause contamination or oxidation. I'm always interested to hear why similar choices are made. Thanks!

[@MasonDixonAcres]

I learned about the closed systems but I went for open system for the following reasons: -Only one heating appliance to buy/install/maintain/replace -No separate expansion tank (uses well tank as expansion tank) -Always cold water flowing through the floor during summer, preventing stagnation and providing some limited cooling -Didn't want to use glycol (toxic to animals, cleaning up leaks becomes a hazardous activity, leaked water potentially into floor drain and septic system, etc.) -Very easy to install, troubleshoot, & maintain (closed loop may be similar)

[@MrProjectHacker]

Thank you so much for showing the items that were missed, that really helps with commissioning a complex project.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Glad it was helpful!

[@davidmickey2837]

Great videos. That’s an impressive DIY system. Auto air separator or bleeder would be a nice add to that system. On the outlet of the boiler but before the inlet of the pump. Point of highest temp and lowest pressure.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

That’s the beauty of an open system, a little air bubble here or there doesn’t really hurt anything and just works it’s way out at your faucet. There are air bleeders on the manifold but I didn’t even use them, just opened a faucet and let it run.

[@andrewstewart9589]

First off, great work all around. I'm in the process of designing a similar shop / home and ran across your channel. My heating/cooling concept is almost identical, but im debating whether a separate radiant system is worth it if i have mini splits in the shop just as you do. I know your design is an open system so it also supplies domestic hot water. Im curious to know if you considered no propane at all with just the heat pumps and or maybe electric boiler / water heater. Electricity may be expensive where you are so maybe that went into the calculus. Also, did you complete a heat loss calc for your spaces? Im looking at how to size the heat pumps appropriately. Thanks for sharing.

[@brennenbartlettphotography1576]

Hey I have a question for you guys, I’m thinking about doing an open loop on an electric tankless- how has your gas tankless performed with this system?

[@ericfraser7543]

Don't they recommend installing an automatic air bleeder in that system and automatic water feeder? Do you really run that with house pressure? My system runs at 20 PSI and pops the pressure relief valve at 30 PSI. I remember you saying something about an expansion tank was not needed for your system last time. Even my house hot water tank has a small expansion tank because I am on town water and there is a backflow preventer on the town feed, though for a well water like yours, your water tank has a bladder which prevents expansion of hot water and the expansion tank is not need. I read the instructions better than my installers and made them install the proper expansion tank.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

I confirmed with the manufacturer an expansion tank is not needed for an open system on well water. Neither is an air bleeder - it’s an open system, so when you open a sink faucet, the same hot water (and air) in the floor makes its way there

[@magnumsolutions]

Thank you for doing this video series of your build and your hydronic heating install. I am in the process of designing my system now for my new home build. I am a software engineer as well as a hobbyist builder, so your series definitely resonates with me. Fun to watch your journey and learn from your experiences along the way. (I will pay particular attention to leaving my anchor bolts in the form when I pour my foundation band. :) ).

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Glad to be of help!!

[@magnumsolutions]

@@andymarquez6435 absolutely for things I need to. Hanging drywall/ sanding/painting/, siding, pulling wiring/fixtures/boxes/plugs/switches, interior framing/doors/windows and mill work, landscaping, forming and preparing for concrete are all well within my skill set and something I’m good at so I will do those myself

[@bojangles_bonjangles8000]

Make sure to buy caps for your flush valves / hose bibs. Don’t just rely on the valve being turned off.

[@tylermacmillan3372]

You’re a really smart dude. How many hours of research vs. Installation time do you think this took?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Haha I appreciate that, I probably spent 10 hours figuring out which vendor I wanted to use and reading their documentation. Install was probably 40 hours total for the plumbing, hanging equipment, venting, startup, etc. and that includes me YouTubing how to solder copper pipes 😄

[@stevestadterman9270]

what,,nooo air eliminator,,,and ur an engineer,,,wow

[@MasonDixonAcres]

It's an open system. Air is bled every time you open a faucet

[@kammeredith5098]

Just finished installing my own radiant system from Radiant Floor Company using your videos on it as guidance. Helped me a ton, thanks!

[@MasonDixonAcres]

That's awesome to hear! Glad you had a successful install and that we had a part in it 👌🏼

[@unijabnx2000]

kinda wondering why not go with a heat pump heater for the radiant floor ?

[@billybike57]

Great “stick to” attitude, your two make a great team!!!

[@Krashingcruzes]

Would be curious on the cost update very neat design and set up.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Cost video coming soon!

[@patrickm6000]

I just got my system in my pole building online yesterday. it's a 30x40 building with 4 loops. All these "kits" out there were so highly priced. I did it myself. I got an electric water heater from one of the kit suppliers. but everything else was local. I used PEX-C from lowes. 3/4 inch with crimp fittings. So far so good. No leaks that I've seen and it's been running about 19hrs now. So it'll take a few days to get up to temp I'm sure. Videos like this one sure helped.

[@kevinhornbuckle]

Definitely install radiant floor heat in your bathroom. If you don't want to run water to there, the electric cable is easy to install. If your hydronic system needs to be down for any period of time, you'd still have a warm bathroom. Either energy source, a warm bathroom floor makes a world of difference in terms of comfort and bathroom maintenance (it dries the room out).

[@MasonDixonAcres]

I agree! We have the Schluter Ditra Heat system in our current remodeled bathroom, and it is a nice luxury. I think we will lean towards the electric system for the separate control ability

[@kevinhornbuckle]

@@MasonDixonAcres The way I did mine was to screw the thinner Hardie backer to the subfloor, and then tape heat cable down (got if off Ebay for a good price), then poured floor leveler to a depth of 5/16” to cover the cable. Tile over the floor leveler. I am glad I did not waste time and money on expensive de-coupling membrane.

[@larryfisher5198]

I don't see an expansion tank

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Separate tank not needed for open system on well water

[@justjack9561]

I am surprised this is not a Comby boiler to keep your domestic hot water and you’re in floor heat water separate interesting interesting I have I have in floor heat in my house and my house came with a Combi boiler so the boiler for the heat is separated from the domestic hot water. That way you can run your boiler heat, a little warmer mine set at 140° and my domestic is at 120

[@larryfrey4124]

Great job working together as a team! I didn't see a expansion tank on your hot water radiant side?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Thanks! It’s an open system so no need for it

[@chaseme9860]

You can't mix your heating water with your potable water. You're missing an RPZ backflow preventor and water make-up, regulator, air separator and expansion tank. A huge health hazard. If you wanted to use this to heat your domestic water too, you need an indirect tank. This all needs to be redone.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

You're imagining this is a closed loop system - I suggest looking into the open direct system by Radiant Floor Company, they have lots more info

[@chaseme9860]

@@MasonDixonAcres It doesn't matter whether its open or closed loop. You can't mix your radiant water with your domestic water.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

If all components of the system are rated for potable water, there's no reason you can't have radiant and domestic water together in an open system. Open to hear the reasoning for your opinion

[@chaseme9860]

@@MasonDixonAcres Your components are not potable rated. The Grundfos pump, the oxygen barrier PEX etc... This doesn't include any of the other various radiant heat fittings. The alloys used have to specially made for potable water. Otherwise you will leach lead. Just the oxygen barrier PEX alone is a really unhealthy dose of chemicals.

[@chaseme9860]

@@MasonDixonAcres Even if all your components were rated for potable use, you can't have "dead ends" in your piping. This happens when your radiant side isn't being used for several months. This will cause Legionella growth.

[@seanprice6345]

Over tightening a threaded connection can crack a brass fitting. Just 3 wraps of Teflon tape and a light coat of pipe dope then snug it down.

[@ThePaladinRider]

So you have potable water going through your floors?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Correct.

[@Gommaq]

Where is your expansion tank/vessel?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Not needed in an open system! Basically the well pressure tank functions as one

[@thomasmattson2389]

If there isn't one, you should add an air release valve at the highest point.

[@MrMaddogg2010]

That was my question?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

It's an open system, so any air that might get in is released when you open a hot water tap.

[@thomasmattson2389]

@@MasonDixonAcres I'm talking about the in floor heating. Air goes to the highest point. You need an air release valve. They are made for this exact reason.

[@danthurman9076]

Scale is from the make up water, heating the water causes more scale to precipitate out in the system. I can't believe your wife will be happy when her laundry becomes stained from the water in your system. 2 of those Takagie condensing boilers, one for heating the floor and 1 for heating domestic water needs. Filling the floor heating unit with 50/50 mixture of Prestone and distiled water will keep your system clean and the tiny passages in the boiler clear of scale and rusty water. Always remember to check the boiler water for the correct PH . Pure water will eat holes in the copper heat exchanger in a short period of time. Rock phosphate is a good way to keep the water at the correct ph,you can use DCA test strips to test the water ph, DCA is used to keep the ph at the correct level in Diesel engines, it will be more than sufficient for you. Scale stick made by NUCalgon is my favorite for this application.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Thanks for all the info! I haven’t noticed any change in the water between hot and cold so far, it’s been going for close to a year. Haven’t tested any pH though, focusing on finishing the build first 😅 Radiant floor company does recommend flushing the tankless with vinegar once a year to keep everything clean. I’d much prefer to keep the open system for the simplicity and definitely don’t want to put in a separate $1400 boiler for domestic water haha so time will tell! Will update

[@diybuildingreality9995]

Awesome video I wish I had seen this 3 years ago before I started my build. Your work looks top-notch. We started our self build in August 2020.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Thank you! Well if you ever build again, you'll have a good radiant floor resource 😄

[@johngray4107]

Just wondering what your flow is at the water heater?

[@charlieshew]

One tip I can add is to stick the water hose that is outside into a bucket of water. That way, you can see the air bubbles. It's how I bleed my car brakes. You do great work. Wanna come down and build my house next year?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

thank you for the tip! Haha I think it would take some of the fun out of it if building was a real job 😆

[@AF-O6]

You’re making that look easier than it really is. Purging all of the air out of lines can be problematic...for any kind of system.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

With an open direct system it's as easy as opening any tap! For closed systems, yes it can be quite difficult if the bleeder valve isn't the highest point of the system

[@bobbyj0708]

I know it's been a while but if there's still time you should run that extra supply up to the bathroom. Your wife will love you for the heated floors in there.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

That's actually why we bought a 7 loop versus 6 loop manifold, but then realized control would be a pain. Using electric radiant floor in the bath/shower instead!

[@404Cluster]

How does it heat with that heater and not waste water? I thought it would be a closed circuit but you said that heater will provide water for sinks...

[@MasonDixonAcres]

it circulates hot water through the floor until you open a hot water tap, when the output from the heater is directed primarily to the tap. It's called an open direct system.

[@lostcreek7551]

The condensate is acidic. Would not run that to a septic. Don’t no if you have one. Just a heads up.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Peep the condensate neutralizer, more details in the install video

[@TrevPagesPlace]

Cool to see it up and running. We're doing a radiant floor in our new house as well but using an electric boiler with 3 zones

[@MasonDixonAcres]

Nice! I worked out the math for ours and an electric boiler was about 25% more expensive to run than gas. All dependent on power and propane costs in your area

[@TheOystei]

having heated bathroom floors is such a nice thing. i advice you to put in that circuit.

[@MasonDixonAcres]

We are doing it with electricity instead! Much easier to control temp

[@ilyafilru]

Could you explain how you set it up to do both the radiant and DHW in one system?

[@MasonDixonAcres]

It's from Radiant Floor Company, they have great diagrams and documentation on their site if you search for their Open Direct system

[@omarbrown44]

Don't you need a pressure tank for the radiant part of the system?

[@omarbrown44]

also want to mention well done, and thanks for the video. lol, probably should have started with that.

[@joemizer]

You should use distilled water and coolant

[@MasonDixonAcres]

It's an open system which uses potable water

[@prestonjerry366]

You are a legend !!! I believe you designed and installed the radiant piping system yourself . .

[@MasonDixonAcres]

I did the layout in the slab but the board was pre-fabricated - glad I went that route, I would have definitely messed up a custom board.

[@prestonjerry366]

@@MasonDixonAcres Learning many valuable things from you, thanks man. . .my only fear is availability. Working a 9-5 full time job, I'm afraid I may not meet the commitments needed to build my own home

[@prestonjerry366]

@@MasonDixonAcres , I think I lost your eMail address, do you mind dropping it here for me ?