MASS ARBITERS!?

Royal (T) vs MC (P) on Citadel.
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[@kilmindaro3]

Hey Arty, love your casts, but I have a question that's been niggling at me for a while Some time ago in one of your vids you were talking about map design, and mentioned how there was once a map that was considered pretty good and balanced, but after a while proved to actually be completely unbalanced? Like, to the point it was proven to be mathematically impossible to win (as Terran, I believe)? Do you perhaps have a video exploring the subject of that map, and if not, do you think it would be worth your while to make a video explaining the history of that map, exploring how and why it's so unbalanced and why no one noticed for a long while? Sorry if it sounds weird, but that's the kind of trivia that keeps percolating in my brain.

[@StrangeAttractor1]

Would love to watch this too!

[@okj4521]

Or a general video on map design. Maybe even illustrations on the map editor could be nice.

[@IlKazma]

@@okj4521 I agree, I would love to watch a video like this

[@3halfshadows]

He did talk about it in casts. You're probably thinking about Destination, the problem was too much space behind the minerals meant muta harass was too strong. There are a lot of map design elements you can look at: the mentioned space behind minerals(muta harass), bridges(makes contains too strong), space in the main(terran needs room for depots and production), size of the opening to the natural(zerg needs to be able to make simcity), maybe you could make an interesting video about it.

[@kilmindaro3]

@@3halfshadows yeah, that's why I'm asking. The subject matter sounds very interesting, and Arty is one of the few people knowledgeable enough to explore it at length

[@Girthbrooks715]

My favorite part is when Arty said “it’s brooding time” and war’d all over

[@sohkrazed]

I morbed all over

[@illusion2438]

Its brooding time for Artosis whenever Terran gets abused by protoss.

[@Otenko56]

that skirmish from 6:40 to 7:40 together with the music, omfg, so friggin good!!!!

[@GreenGloop]

I love the little asides! I also sometimes mix up my spawns or think I'm on a different map and build buildings away from the exit ramp. Great to see it happens even to the best

[@godlyobject6509]

Never stop over-explaining, Artosis! Crazy back and forth game and great cast.

[@chongli297]

Mass arbiter is really cool but MC needed to be a lot more cost-efficient with his gateway units or switch into either robo or carriers. He just dumped so many zealots and dragoons into the meat grinder. Then when he had a ton of gas banked he made a million HTs and threw them away. I think if he held onto some arbiters and got reavers and carriers (when he 5000 gas banked) he could've broken one big Royal army and won the game. Hard to switch into mass goliath when you're already maxed on tanks and vultures! And mass goliath is terrible against reavers + carriers!

[@TheSuperappelflap]

He never remade the mineral only base he lost, was fighting with 5 base vs 6 base terran for half the game. If he kept macroing properly he couldve traded like he did and worn Last down.

[@FlymanMS]

He had a way of dropping packs of troops into enemy's production line, disrupting the economy, and he never did it.

[@sneediumminer]

@@FlymanMS to be fair last had ironclad defenses against any recalls forever

[@sneediumminer]

he could have thrown down 3-4 stargate and a fleet beacon and won the game in the next 6 minutes with 9-12 carriers with that 5000 mineral/gas bank

[@iithunderii9800]

The terran was Royal guys, not Last. But yes, I agree with yall

[@martinbalke1843]

Royal does that tank marine vulture push every game I watch of him and it NEVER works lol.

[@buzzKillerCSS]

"Thank you for watching ArtosisCasts... lol" xD that had me cracking up

[@jm9425]

Loved your casting Artosis, been watching every day the last few weeks and catching up with that 2024 meta game! Keep up the awesome casting, it's my favorite among the SC casters

[@AbyssalManta]

One disconcerting thing about pros, they're really savage with their psi storms. It's rare to see one that doesn't hit their own units.

[@fieldrequired283]

Part of it I think is that it's mostly going to be landing on zealots, which are really bulky for their cost and way cheaper than the stuff you want to be storming, so it's worth it anyway. If the choice is between storming your zealots and not storming the mass of tanks/lurkers/hydras, you storm every time.

[@AbyssalManta]

@@fieldrequired283 Sure, but in non pro games, what you observe/try to do is to storm the back rows of enemies while the zeas engage the front rows.

[@fieldrequired283]

@@AbyssalManta There is going to be an ideal place to put your storm in terms of enemy grouping, target priority, and accessibility for your High Templar. A pro will put it there regardless of zealot placement because it doesn't change the math much.

[@c0mputar]

Honestly i hope i can watch artosis cast for many more years to come. Something about this channel. Cheers.

[@farming4g]

I really like these types of games where the players don't do a whole lot of harrassment, but basically macro up and build up army supply with expansions... and then ALL HELL begins to break loose across teh map; it's fun seeing more end-game builds.

[@Shield_Battery]

Man, got me thinking about the early Wings of Liberty days when they were doing silly stuff like 4 CC First opens.

[@stevechristensen8155]

Toss forgot his upgrades

[@AquaSZSSoo]

14:07 MC did get air attack upgrade. Not sure why though. For Arbiter's pitiful attack? Or was he considering Carriers with his massive economy?

[@Shield_Battery]

Also Air armor! I think the idea was definitely cooking in his mind. But it could also have been a fake too, Terrans cheat scouting for the fleet beacon because you'd only +1 air attack for carriers in PvT. There was another MC game vs JyJ on sylphid and he did the same thing upgrading Air Attack and Armor, but stayed on Arb+Gateway.

[@schwanimal]

Love MC! T mech army scales so well with upgrades

[@FlymanMS]

I think the not winner played his game too straightforward, the strategy he chose requires more covert ops rather than open field battles.

[@davidgatten1033]

What a game! Love it when it' back and forth like that. Thanks for the cast Arty!

[@FerencDojcsak]

Every arbiter just makes me smile! Also as Arty said, really well played match, lot to learn from.

[@FeanorSociety.]

The macroing and multitasking is so unreal with these guys. I love these casts!

[@Yamulo]

Artosis I think the average artosis casts viewer would listen to you talk about the evolution of the meta game for literal hours lol. I really like when you explain even minor changes quite a lot

[@Shield_Battery]

Yes! Those are my favorite parts of the casts when he takes a step aside to go into the "In My Day Stories". Especially when something undervalued abruptly becomes integral or viable to standard play. eg. +25 Scarab Damage, Plague, or Valkyries Sometimes it's a popular player fad, sometimes it's a recent meta response, sometimes it's a literal game patch.

[@johnnyboy3563]

Arty literally your last game you went on for 5 minutes about why the sim city might be in the far corner, and now you think the better explanation is he thought he was top right......

[@iithunderii9800]

I think the difference is the probe could come and harass where that barracks was whereas in the last game the racks was like squeezed between the wall and the refinery

[@justingagnier2871]

The heavy zelot push is where I struggle the most when playing a solid toss player. Then of coarse every toss on ladder goes carriers

[@jonathangodbolt1671]

Love to see MC playing a big macro game, I remember him being the timing attack king in early SC2 days.

[@zaldinfox]

Artosis, I was wondering if it is possible to plant Vulture mines on top of each other (just like hiding Lurkers)?

[@fieldrequired283]

I'm pretty sure you can, but it's not really an economical use of spider mines. Stacking a bunch of spider mines just means you waste 4 spider mines on the first dragoon or couple of zealots to run over it.

[@phoenixlich]

The momentum swings in this game were excellent!

[@zenmetsux]

If toss had transitioned into carriers, instead of gate, the game would've been different. You just add a fleet beacon and a couple more stargates and you're pretty much set. Imagine Carrier + arbiter. Invisible interceptors pew pew pew. unbeatable.

[@GeneralFatman27]

Absolute nipple biter of a game. Love to see the aerial spellcasters used so well. Too many Protoss players neglect their judicator brethren.

[@kennysambiase7983]

One of the best games I’ve seen in a long while! Thank you Artosis!

[@nickcoleman32]

How current are these games arty?

[@Shield_Battery]

hahhhhh I can't tell if those air upgs are him putting Carriers on the stove, or another fakeout like that JyJ game on Sylphid. I do think because of SC2, MC may be more comfortable with gateway unit tempo and active patrolling rather than flip to the slower Finger of God armada tempo and leashed kiting.

[@Prometosermejor]

why not carrirers?

[@MrTBSC]

well THAT was a match and a half, alright

[@M0n0chr0m4t1C]

20 gates all-in, my favorite strategy.

[@wcjerky]

Look, it's not perfect, but is it necessary to raise a mass mechanical army versus arbitration?

[@FlymanMS]

Mech is a default way to go against Protoss.

[@Shield_Battery]

Well, it's really more that Mech is only way that's viable unless it's a bio cheese build. Attacks advantages very specific: Vultures vs zealots, and Tanks vs goons, and Goliaths vs Air*. If your army is too small, they get torn apart by an imbalance in one of those matchups, Arb are just one of the many spicy seasonings for the all-game gateway army vs Terran. RT took a round about way of saying expand so you can have more ComSat energy to scan under arbiter cloak. When attacking through Arbiters, using a Vessel to detect involves staying in a suicidal range from goon snipes, and a Turret to detect is akin to establishing a D-Day beachhead. Alternatively, if you had another meaning like attacking BEFORE arbiters to counter them, ya sure, you could try, but in a roundabout way RT said no in this video. Good protoss can easily hold off those 2-base factory pressures, and apparently 12.5 min or so is enough for the first one.

[@Fanelan053]

Excellent toss play!!

[@CultOfMonika]

Your other channels aren't showing up when i go on your profile. Might be just on mobile

[@fingon8919]

looks like, as Terran all you have to do is siege and lay mines, then wait for the protoss player to throw and waste its army over and over again.

[@petecabrina]

30:13 bunch of zealots asleep wanting to get into the action. Don't know how arty misses these things sometimes, or how MC missed that, he had good supply still but for some reason no army 😄

[@heyimSkyee]

Nice match ty arty!❤ good friday morning chill sesh

[@okj4521]

Terran vs Protoss is my favorite

[@kilmindaro3]

I like TvT mirror matches

[@chloesmith4065]

PvZ for me

[@codyzeitler3525]

that was an amazing tvp

[@PJJ196]

Wow what a sick game

[@iithunderii9800]

Awesome game, great cast Danny

[@fredrik_p]

Too bad the medic's restoration doesn't remove the stasis.

[@stevemattero1471]

Royal should've switched to Valkaries after he saw how many arbiters he was up against

[@sneediumminer]

having 4-5 valks is never a bad idea but its hard to keep them alive against dragoons when you need to micro the ground army too

[@KuraiChanZ]

The EMPs were plenty. Mass arbiter is great and all, but requires FAR too much micro to dodge EMPs and stuff. It's like how once you have a certain amount of science vessels, it becomes a waste to add more because you can't use the energy efficiently enough with all the action going on.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

Seems like Last should take a page out of the sc2 terran book and make a few spare command centers in the late game, he was constantly floating over 1000 minerals and every time 1 cc died it reduced his income by 1/4 for a minute and a half.

[@TheBryceWade]

Why does nobody use LD/Ghosts vs Arbiters. Already have the Vessels and EMP, and it would negate the power of recall into the main and 3rd.

[@sneediumminer]

because science vessels are way easier to micro and covert ops/LD/ocular implants/cloak/ghost energy take like 5 minutes

[@MrZebub]

Honest question: why isn't EMP a staple in TvP? Seems like free damage.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

You mean just to take the shields off the units? Because vultures already take the shields off dragoons and zealots in like 3 hits and siege tanks take the shields off a whole clump in one shot. Youre probably better off just making more tanks instead of making starports and vessels and getting the EMP upgrade, which is very expensive. And then the EMP travels slowly and its hard to hit units with consistently.

[@scipio764]

Cause a) It is very hard to hit all the Speedlots with 1 or 2 EMP, even for pro b) You also need EMP for casters (Arbiter + HT). You don't really care that much for EMP dmg when you've already got siege tanks, arguably thebmost efficient unit in game.

[@ericjepson3765]

It should certainly be used more against carriers.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@ericjepson3765 that's true, they're hard to miss as well haha

[@fieldrequired283]

A storm is going to hurt your army more than an EMP is going to hurt theirs, so you may as well just save it for the storms.

[@LIGO-LHC]

Disruption web too expensive/take too long to get or since corsair not helpful other then the web or do they take up too much stargate time? Is that why we don't see it too much?

[@fieldrequired283]

Disruption web is pretty small, doesn't last very long, anything that isn't a sieged siege tank can just move out of the way, and the corsair doesn't really have a good Air to Air target in any matchup other than PvZ.

[@chloesmith4065]

Very micro intensive

[@sneediumminer]

also unlike blinding cloud in sc2 disruption web also disables your zlots so you end up with stunned siege tanks that dont die vs siege tanks that get 1 extra shot off but do die

[@nightmissionsonly9494]

this game was fantastic!

[@cl8804]

can i just say: PROOOOOOOOTOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSS

[@VoiDukkha]

MC in ASL gona be lit

[@avinotion]

Is it just me or did Psi Storm use to work on stasis units in original SC? I seem to remember in the campaign an Arbiter came and froze my entire army, then a High Templar stormed the hell out of it. I know it doesn't work now.

[@ispyoptions]

sad to see protoss up by such a large margin and literally throwing away units for no reason. careless with the arbiter control and it would have been smart to throw in a few dark archons to take care of science vessels

[@TheBryceWade]

The first push from Terran would have been much more effective having Siege instead of speed.. Why would you throw those units away without siege? Is he expecting lots of zlots and low goons?

[@panswiata3756]

No siege mode. Buahahahahaha. LOL

[@Tmr2010]

Really good game. Wow

[@EziixPked]

why royal use username Last?

[@drewwalbeck6006]

Why do pros never pull workers when the harass gets in their mineral line? Is it just not worth it?

[@sneediumminer]

they do early game but later game brood war pathing is not kind to workers who for example in the case of the scv have the second lowest attack range in the game

[@SubZeroMG4u]

not sure why the terran didnt sieged the tanks when he saw the pilon and nexus at 7 minute... would been way other fight...

[@stefanc4520]

MC showing why SC2 transitions to Broodwar don't work like vice versa.

[@3halfshadows]

MC played BW before SC2...

[@stefanc4520]

@@3halfshadows and who heard of him then...? Also that proves my point that BW transfers to SC2 but not vice versa lol

[@dj_koen1265]

as if losing to royal is any blemish on mc's skill as a player both players played very well

[@stefanc4520]

@@dj_koen1265 it's not about a "blemish" it's just very evident that SC2 skills transfers over to Broodwar waaaaaaaaaaaaay less then Broodwar to SC2.

[@ZER0-C00L]

GG

[@KingOfHarad]

good

[@mattthemaddogdollar]

Epic game.

[@JonasStenmarkMT]

amazing game! wow

[@sgthrawn]

What SC truly needs to mix up the meta is having random maps like Age of Empires 2, instead of static maps.

[@dylaninnes8541]

Epic

[@nathantoone206]

I know I'm in the wrong comments section to say this, but I like SC2 more than BW. That being said, the arbitrator is way cooler than the mothership.

[@dj_koen1265]

sc2 is cool but it has lots of poorly designed units/abilities

[@AitsukiNanas]

Terran nows

[@beetletrading8643]

my ex got mass Orbiter

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

12:26 / 31:52

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

22:51 / 31:52

[@LORFCASTER]

gg

[@TKGameGuy]

🎉🎉🎉 😂

[@bighairman]

terran ftw

[@skyvipers]

Arbiter Stasis / Recall is truly broken. Imagine sending in a lone Arbiter to recall in like 6 Reavers, (and another Aribter to Stasis counters), then, having another Arbiter at home to Recall them back. Whole enemy base blows up in a hit-and-run style execution. You could even Hallucinate the Arbiter to hinder the anti-air at the enemy base. Arbiter is almost as strong (in theory) as Defiler imo. Imagine if it could make its own energy lol.

[@BayCyst]

Anytime we do see the Arbiter build Arty always mentions how you only really get one with the build and I never understood why. Maybe its the gas cost, maybe if you make too many your enemies army is too quality and you die but what you mentioned is what I always pondered about. Multiple Arbiters as a strike force of sorts lol. But I'm not very skilled I just enjoy watching these games.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@BayCyst Its just very micro intensive to have multiple arbiters in different spots on the map trying to recall to and from each other. It would obviously be strong, but if you just spend that APM on macroing and taking good fights, its a better way to win games. But who knows maybe as the skill level of protoss players increases over time, they will find time for fancy strats like that.

[@ericjepson3765]

Recall is one of the worst spells in the game it's almost always never more than a donation of troops. Mines are just wayyyyyyyyyy too powerful and cheap.

[@skyvipers]

@@ericjepson3765 I wouldn't say that, compared to Optic Flare / Restoration / Disruption Web / Hallucination / Ensnare / Lockdown / Spawn Broodling / Burrow / Malestorm? I see Recall used way *WAY* more times in pro-games than those spells. Mines are S-Tier so I agree with you there lol, followed by Dark-Swarm and Plague + Consume.

[@FlymanMS]

I'd say huge free invisibility field is broken, it should be a researcheable tech instead of a default ability.

[@matthewcook1735]

Why do terran players refuse to play ghosts withal that gsd

[@jrodtopo]

Nice macro game!

[@kevinf.2556]

the fact that terran can just lift CCs in lategame is way too broken, has always been and will always be when mutual destruction is assured terran is always coming out as the winner due to floating CCs insta claiming expansions and its the most disgusting thing ever to bear witness

[@ArtosisCasts]

At high levels Terran loses the vast majority of base trades. Thanks for your expert insight though!

[@mapro3948]

@@ArtosisCasts 😀

[@ObeliskM]

Why terran loses base trades? Both protoss and zerg bases seem to be more vulnerable

[@chloesmith4065]

Terran production is the hardest to replace. Zerg if they lose their main just rebuild one tech structure and their other 6 bases can pump 18 of those units again, they don't need to rebuild several factories and starports and add-ons.

[@sneediumminer]

@@ObeliskM protoss can rebuild gateways super fast and dont need addons zerg can produce from all bases not just the main terran needs 1 scv per building and half their buildings need to build addons after being built

[@Radii_DC]

So much economy and no carriers??? GTFO and learn how to play!

[@FlymanMS]

Maybe you can coach him?

[@Radii_DC]

@@FlymanMS Totally! :))

[@Plasmax-jp6pm]

MASS GAYYY! LOL

[@cyberneticdex69]

dunno why P player wont use some Dark Arcs to steal some terran tech ... and why not even an mcv to build their own terran force :))) that be awesome ... imabine both techs working as one ...

[@fieldrequired283]

You only have so many resources, spending them on building and upgrading a new army from scratch when your core tech tree is already basically maxed out would take so long that you would be spoonfeeding your opponent an easy advantage.

[@fieldrequired283]

Basically, for this to work you would have to be so far ahead that you could have just killed your opponent already.

[@sneediumminer]

@@fieldrequired283 to be fair MC was literally 10000 resources ahead at one point dark archon scv steal followed by recalling the scv would be baller but theres probably just not enough APM to handle all of that

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

GG