Mass Effect 5: Did the Starchild LIE?

[@xenowriter82]

I know the indoctrination theory is not popular but I always took the kid for lying and it was Harby. If you do refusal, his voice changes to harbinger’s.

[@kalaelizabeth]

Yeah this is true! I totally forgot to cover this but maybe I will in another video 🤔 I don't necessarily think he's harbinger though since I've interpreted it as that being his true voice which he created harbrginer and he is essentially part of the catalyst. But it's a very interesting thing to consider!

[@xenowriter82]

@@kalaelizabeth good point lol

[@autobrecciation2018]

Yeah I dont like the fancy Indoctrination theories but a light indoctrination (IE they are trying to affect sheps mind, not controlling shep) is kind of my head cannon and this is one of the reasons why.

[@williamkerfoot8039]

It's been long established that the IT is bogus, and for good reason! It would defeat the very purpose of an RPG! Not to mention that the writers would've committed the cardinal sin of lying to the audience!

[@xenowriter82]

@@williamkerfoot8039 I think if it wasn’t bogus it would be very clever writing.

[@christopherhall5361]

"The created will always rebel against their creators." "You mean, like you did?"

[@wickdaline8668]

Yes

[@LightStreak567]

Other synthetics rebelled against their creators and the purpose for why they were created (Case in point, the geth were created to be a labor force meant to perform tasks too dangerous for quarians), but though the "star child" AI harmed his creators to create the Reapers, he did NOT rebel from the purpose for why they created him, which is why the Leviathans claimed they made no mistakes creating the "starchild" AI to help them.

[@mkdcg]

It's called projection. Like how a certain person claims another person is crooked, yet they're the real crooked one.

[@christopherhall5361]

@@LightStreak567 the Geth didn't exactly rebel though, they defended themselves because the Quarians turned on them. Star Child is straight up using circular logic to justify doing exactly what it was created to put an end to

[@blacklightredlight2945]

@@christopherhall5361 The geth defending themselves is why they will always rebel. The core of the story isn't the evil of machines, it's the evil of organics, in the face of their creations meant to serve, choosing otherwise.

[@Dak1624]

The fact that Starchild took a form and voice of a kid that Shepard witnessed dying on Earth causing huge trauma for him really shows he wanted to manipulate Shepard in this form.

[@wintertrooper7918]

i don't think thats necessarily the case but rather that i think it chose that form because it is most representative of the issue it's trying to prove to shepard like a "form you are most comfortable with" type thing

[@Dak1624]

@@wintertrooper7918Well. We can't know for sure since we never got explanation to it.

[@wintertrooper7918]

@@Dak1624 true

[@bryymiller2475]

holy fuck i never caught that before.

[@YakamaMike]

I always take it as it was owning up to its statement that it was created to establish a connection, and so taking the form of a human would bode well in interacting with Shepard.

[@Ruzbe_r]

Btw in this scene Shepard is standing in open space with no helmet.

[@_zurr]

We've been shown that some kind of mass effect field tech can be used to create airtight zones. I assume that's what happens here.

[@Davanthall]

I'm in the camp of "the Starchild isn't "lying", it's just wrong." It thinks something is true that actually just ISN'T true.

[@j.rileyindependentproductions]

Exactly. And technically it may be right in a majority of situations as well. But that does not mean that it will always happen. It's correlation not causation. Let's look at what a certain politician said about a decade ago, he claimed that since all criminals went to Kindergarten, that Kindergarten was the cause. I'm not kidding you, Google it. This ignores the large percentage of non-criminals who also attended Kindergarten. It's like saying, "All women who get pregnant drink water, so to prevent pregnancy, they need to stop drinking water." Same with the Starchild's logic. While more intricate and closer to the truth than the above examples, synthetics being created would not inherently lead them to rebel. It's more the fear that they will rebel or be violent (plus fear of the unknown, which the future with them in it would also be), which can also cause the issue. We actually saw this twice in ME3 with both the Geth and the unnamed living AI's in the archives in the Citadel DLC.

[@alexbarrett3529]

I think that most people overlook something crucial relating to the Starchild and the Reapers' motivations: they were created to preserve life, not necessarily solve the conflict between organics and synthetics. Leviathan himself says, "We created an Intelligence with a mandate to preserve life at any cost." Preserving life, specifically organic life, is very different from solving the conflict between organics and synthetics. The Starchild/Intelligence only wants to keep organics from being wiped out. That is why they preserve races through harvesting: to preserve them before they are lost to any potential synthetic uprising, whether it has happened in their cycle yet or not. I believe that the cycles were simply a short-term solution to a problem that the Starchild doesn't actually know how to solve, and it knew it didn't know how to solve it. If there had been a viable solution before Shepard, the Reapers would have implemented it because then organics would be safe from the threat of synthetics. Once Shepard and the Crucible arrives, the Starchild finally has a way to solve the problem that has plagued it since its creation. The Starchild has only a very short time to think about the possibilities the Crucible made available. In that very brief time, it decided that Synthesis would be best because, as it said, organics would be perfected through tech, and synthetics would be perfected through understanding. As a synthetic themselves, it doesn't understand that organics still aren't ready for that change, especially not all at once as the Crucible implements it. The Starchild is not omniscient, and it is not always right. It merely believes it is right, and is willing to go to any lengths necessary to achieve its goal, because that's how it was designed. "Preserve life at any cost." In the end, the flaws of the Starchild and their solution can be attributed to the arrogance of the Leviathans. They saw a couple organic slave races get wiped out by AI, decided that was a problem, then recklessly created a superintelligent AI themselves with extreme directives and no restraints on the actions it could take. It's like inventing an AI to solve climate change at any cost, then being surprised when it decides to wipe out humanity so they can't ruin the planet any further. Had the Leviathans been less blinded by arrogance and greed, they could have avoided the entire cycle. It would have been as simple as programming the Starchild to inform the Leviathans of its findings before implementing a plan. If they'd done that, they could have stopped the Starchild and said, "Whoa, that's not what we meant. We kinda meant find a way for organics to live peacefully with synthetics, without destroying the galaxy thousands of times over in the process." Exactly like you said Kala, the cycles are counter-productive to solving the actual problem. The Reapers are so obsessed with "preserving" life that they don't give organics and synthetics the chance to find the solution to lasting peace on their own. If the Reapers had simply shut down after Shepard made peace between the Geth and Quarians, it's entirely possible our cycle would have reached synthesis on our own, especially if the Starchild thinks it's inevitable. Thus, we would reach a solution without the need for the Crucible or the harvests.

[@EndlessDreamer448]

Your comment deserves more attention. Nothing but good points.

[@rand64444]

I think you actually grasp the story and writing here

[@padregigacocks6567]

In fact, the solution was as simple as possible - NOT to leave the galaxy after the destruction of all intelligent life, to stay in it, and when the races begin to approach the creation of artificial intelligence, inform them that “guys, we have already seen this, it all ended badly, no do it." Or not to interfere until the artificial intelligence begins to create problems, and quickly destroy it, saying “we said that this would happen.”

[@girlinvt]

So I don't agree. Here's why. You seem to think that the Star Child was unable to learn. Edi was constantly learning and evolving. Legion was constantly evolving and learning. He was evan capable of self-sacrifice. He gave his life so Geth could be individuals within a collective whole instead of a mass consciousness. Edi rewrote herself because she learned that she would risk her own life to save Jeff or her crewmates life. It wasn't just survival of oneself at all costs. The only options in the Star Childs controlled universe were decided and controlled by the Star Child. Nothing and no one was more powerful than the Child. At no time was the Child benevolent. It destroyed anything and anyone who might stop it or control it. The Reapers were the harvested remnants of past civilizations and totally controlled by the Child. They had no free thought, free will, no art, no culture, no songs, and no life. They literally went to dark space and hibernated until the 50,000 year wait to harvest again, with 1 left to observe the progress of the next to be harvasted and to make sure that the next dominant race to appear next didn't deviate from the Childs set path. The Protheans were another tool of the Child. The race was indoctrinated for so long they nolonger had the ability to think for themselves, their genetic code had been so degraded they were barely recognizable as Prothean. If they had nobody using them they would literally starve to death, in the spot they were left in. At no time was the Child willing to sacrifice itself for anything or anyone.

[@blacklightredlight2945]

@@girlinvt Incorrect, they literally tell you where to shoot to end the reapers. Otherwise, they could have said the catalyst was shep, and told them to jump in the center. They told you the truth, hoping you'd pick the one to end the cycle instead of the one to kick the can down the road, aka Destroy.

[@bwalker77]

IMO, the biggest weakness of the endings is that, for once, Shepard fails us. They don't ask the questions that we, the players, want answered and would've asked in their place. They let the Starchild frame the Reapers as the heroes of the galaxy without any pushback, without confronting them with their contradictions and flawed logic. Ambiguity can be good when the storytelling is on point but this one feels more like a bug than a feature. Good catch about SC pushing for the Synthesis ending. I didn't notice that before.

[@sylaann9206]

Shepard is dying at that point, he/she was shoot countless time and has even trouble just standing.

[@sylaann9206]

​@@Maples01 yeah bad dreams i have them too irl, that's not really an argument imo. oily images and whisphers I don't remember. But devs said this wasn't a thing so i will be honnest why bother searching about this theory to verify if this was debunked in the first place by the devs themselves ^^'

[@PlanetaryPluto]

​@@Maples01 Saren did not want synthesis. He wanted to be subservient to the reapers; a useful tool in hopes of surviving. Said so explicitly himself. Doesn't sound like synthesis to me.

[@sylaann9206]

@@Maples01 Saren was not synthesised, he was corrupted by the reapers with reaper technology implanted in himself, like the illusive man, he wasn't like the organics after synthesis.

[@sylaann9206]

@@Maples01 that's the theory, the game never stated that. For all we nknow after synthesis reapers leave and never ever comes back. Cycle ends with synthesis as with every other endings.

[@RogerMSanderson]

I don't think the Starchild is lying, at least intentionally. I think it believes what it's saying is true, but that belief is based of it's own assumptions.

[@mihan2d]

Not assumptions but a flawed dataset. The Leviathans explained that they created this AI to solve one specific problem so the entire way the Reapers think is around only that problem

[@wintertrooper7918]

@@mihan2d and in turn the starchild led things to follow a strict pattern of behavior from the galaxy so everything would inevtiably end in the exact same way because nothing could ever grow beyond a set limit that prevents any kind of potential working future

[@janremongalura5713]

An endless code loop?

[@siennahartle9069]

⁠@@mihan2dFrom what we know about the leviathans, they were very arrogant and saw all other life forms as lesser than themselves. The whole reason why they wanted to preserve life was so that their slave races could keep worshipping them and giving them tribute. The leviathans saw that the other races made synthetics and then were killed by them and probably instilled this idea that synthetics will always destroy their creators into the reapers. The flawed beliefs and logic of the reapers are a direct result of the messed up beliefs of their creators, however in their arrogance they didn’t realize that their instructions to preserve life at all costs was too vague, causing the reapers to go to extremes or that they would see the leviathans themselves as part of the problem.

[@mihan2d]

I don't think it was lying BUT we know from the Leviathans that the Reapers' possess very rigid task-oriented thinking so possibly they genuinely saw - through the lack of perspective - the universe this way, that organics are always bound for destruction just because their original dataset was imperfect

[@pfiction2453]

The idea that SAM woukd turn on Rider makes me want Andromeda 2 even more.

[@Ahglock]

If it made Ryder a NPC so we got to play a different protagonist I'd be okay with it. I didn't love the setting or story. But that part could be worked with as they expand to show the rest of the galaxy. I don't see how they can take the lame out of Ryder and his crew.

[@pfiction2453]

@@Ahglock good point

[@janremongalura5713]

Turn on Rider 😮 "Turn on Rider" 😊

[@pfiction2453]

@@janremongalura5713 Peebee volunteers

[@ItsAv3rageGamer]

My distrust of the star child is partly why I always pick Destroy. The biggest hint is what happens when you pick refusal, and the star child voices changes to that of a reapers with the 'so be it' line. This proves the star child is almost putting on an act for Shepard, disgusing its real voice to try and come across more sympathetic. Second, it appears to you as the dead child Shepard saw on Earth. This proves it can clearly read Shepard's mind or memories somehow, and is purposely choosing this form to try and get Shepard to do what it wants. It presents synthesis as the ideal choice, stating it didn't choose this option sooner because 'the organics were not ready.' Why would the organics be any more ready now? The Quarians and Geth were just in all out war a few moments ago, development of AI is banned throughout the galaxy etc. You think the Krogan are ready to merge with synthetics? Shepard might be ready for the change but stating every organic in the galaxy would be is hugely far stretched. He also heavily implies Shepard will die by picking destroy because 'even you are partly synthetic' yet destroy is the only ending where Shepard can live. Also, why is there no option to bring up peace on Rannoch in your conversation with the star child? Isn't that what this whole conflict is over?

[@supernova9930]

Excellent point

[@TheHaddonfieldRegistry]

This is the best argument for it. I agree

[@jimmyellner4763]

Same reason I choose destroy as all other options seems plain wrong.

[@ItsAv3rageGamer]

@@jimmyellner4763 Destroy is also what we've been fighting for the whole trilogy. We're never even presented with any other choice, apart from Ceberus wanting to control them, which is presented as being idotic and later we learn they only proposed this because they were all indoctrinated

[@nafrayu9832]

The Catalyst is the first AI, it changes it's voice when you make a choice that it disagrees with, which organics will do the exact same thing but the voice that we hear and assume that it is the reapers, maybe it is it's true voice and the reapers have be mimicking the Catalyst and not the other way around 🤔 The Catalyst has the same abilities as it's creators, the ability to read and alter the mind. That shouldn't have been a surprise as we were already told this. The Catalyst appearing as the child in Shepherds dreams is understandable as it is someone who familiar and non-threatening. Exactly what you would want when engaging in critical negotiations during an intense conflict. Shepherd was heavily modified by technology when the Lazarus Project brought him back to life so it is understandable to assume that he will not survive if The Crucible took out all synthetics as he is part synthetic. The other two choices wouldn't kill Shepherd exactly, just his body. His mind, his conscience would replace the Catalyst and live on and with the accumulated knowledge that he would gain, I would assume that he would be able to Simply create himself a new body if he really wanted to 🤔 The Catalyst actually did talk about peace between organics and synthetics and it believed that it wouldn't last and that conflict between the two will always end the same. That was literally what the entire conversation was about. I believe that the Catalyst was telling the truth based on it's logic and understanding which lead to it's linear thinking, but that logic was flawed. The Crucible expanded that logic given it more options but it only expanded that logic so far.

[@erictheblue7256]

I haven't played ME3 for several years, and selected all of the options on multiple playthroughs. However, I still remember my frustration when in one of my playthroughs the Geth and Quarians chose peace and cooperation going forward, yet I was unable to challenge the SC's blatant contradiction that synthetics will always destroy organics. I suppose my experience supports so many reviews over the years of ME3 that state it was a great game-until the last 20 min...

[@nofunallowed3382]

The Starchild lying was never anything I considered. It makes sence that such an intelligent entity would work with it's own self preservation and mission in mind. I think that SC's manipulation of Shepard shows that the Reapers are truly afraid of him/her. If you'd have the upper hand and if a succesful harvest is garanteed they wouldn't lie. It's funny that it doesn't matter how many times I've played this series, the fan theories and hidden details keep surprising me. How many times my mind got changed towards these games is beyond counting. Great video Kala!!!

[@SpectreSaunders]

Personally, I don't think the Starchild lied... But I do think the writing for it is flawed... Compared to all life, it's lived almost a billion years & seen a much bigger picture... Almost everything it said would happen - happened; We see it in the ending slides in the extended ending or in ME history... I don't understand how people think it lied about everything, except the destroy ending... Why would it lie about the other endings that keep it alive but solely tell you the truth of how to destroy it?

[@SpectreSaunders]

Regardless, great video Kala! I hope no one takes my comment as being hostile, as I know this area of the game lore can be a sensitive topic for some... I'm just voicing my thoughts on the Starchild & ending after thinking it over for 12 years 😅

[@williamkerfoot8039]

Flawed writing is Mac Walters's specialty.

[@SpectreSaunders]

@@williamkerfoot8039 The one thing a majority of the fanbase agrees on is that the writing for the Starchild & endings is very flawed.

[@williamkerfoot8039]

@SpectreSaunders Sorry man but Mass Effect 3s script was flawed from the start.

[@SpectreSaunders]

@@williamkerfoot8039 Lowkey, I agree with you... I like ME3 but I won't lie, it was kinda disappointing for me... Especially at launch... It's much better with all the DLC, but it's still flawed... It's my least favourite of the trilogy

[@visionhawk4403]

And then there's what happened in Project Overlord. After that DLC, I never picked synthesis again. Always destroy for me. Hackett says that everything they lost can be rebuilt and I assume that includes the Geth and EDI, as well as the mass relays. In order to justify destroying, that's my head canon, that the geth and EDi are rebuilt at some point.

[@Shalltear773]

why use Project Overlord as the excuse? I remember it being an experiment with GETH and nothing related to the Reapers and the process of gaining control over them obviously changes the mind to the point where it could handle being in a similar situation with the Reapers. plus yeah the geth and EDI could be rebuilt at some point but what are the chances they'll be our geth and EDI?

[@axelnilsson5124]

Even if the geth could be rebuilt the reaper codes are likely deleted for good which negates Legions sacrifice

[@cagednephilim3967]

👏👏👏Thank you, Kala! You articulated the way I feel about the endings way better then I possibly could. Particularly with the Reapers never allowing for evolution to move forward. Brilliant vid. I really hope we get some answers to these questions.

[@kalaelizabeth]

I'm glad you enjoyed it since you're the reason why I even made this video hah

[@foreaces4651]

The destroy ending is the only choice that fulfills Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative. “Act so as to treat humanity, whether in your own person or in that of another, at all times also as an end, and not only as a means.”

[@Formoka]

This video is excellent. And I have to add in this tiny little thank you as well because OMG you actually show ME3 Kaidan and nobody does, so I cheered on reflex when I noticed. Kaidan does not get enough love.

[@jacoballen148]

Shepard can still live without their synthetics cause miranda tells you you're mostly organic

[@PhunkyMunky10]

I never cared, nor thought about whether the star child was lying: I just destroy because no robotic space cockroaches are gonna tell me what to do! But it makes sense that it’s either lying or it just believes what it says and they’re just wrong. I lean towards the latter because Harbinger has been saying the entire series that the Reapers are eternal, they can not be stopped, nothing we say or do will stop or stall the harvest, and I believe they genuinely believe this about themselves. Shepard showed them otherwise and this makes them an anomaly, which is why the Catalyst(or Harbinger possibly) is offering Shepard a way to end this. I don’t believe long term the Control ending will work out. I don’t believe synthesis is what every organic in the Galaxy wants either. Destroy is the only option that keeps the galaxy’s freedom and ends this war with the Reapers.

[@okeman7614]

Organics and synthetics can coexist as we can see from the Geth in ME3. Only the Reapers enforce the idea of organics and synthetics cannot coexist so I think starchild is a mind trick used against Shepard by Reapers to fool him into choosing control or synthesis endings.

[@TheMagicalPinata]

To be fair to the Starchild, the arrival of an existential threat, the Reapers, was the catalyst to peace between the Quarians and the Geth.

[@IOSALive]

Kala Elizabeth, This is amazing! I subscribed right away!

[@kalaelizabeth]

Thank you so much!

[@JezaGaia]

To me there is a HUGE question about the crucible, and I even wondered if it wasn't planted by the reapers themselves to force a specific ending, and had it been only synthesis available it would have fit 100% But with the 2 other options available, specially destroy I dismissed the idea. My alternative theory is that it's Leviathan who made the initial blueprints and makes them available each cycle for the species who're fighting the repares to complete. If they succeed they free Leviathan from their need to hide, if they fail Leviathan are still safe and hidden and can try again next cycle. Of course this would leave a lot of questions : why would the AI agree to interface with the crucible no matter the choice that's made, even destroy, why would Leviathan offer choices like control or synthesis ? Synthesis maybe if they thought it would work in their favor but control ? Only if they were the ones at the helm but it's clearly not the case. Heck why even offer choices? But maybe neither Leviathan not the AI have complete control of the crucible, maybe they both have to compromise and both hope to find someone to influence and have that person make the choice. One of the reasons I think this is because if the AI had full control over the citadel as he tells us ME1 wouldn't exist. The AI having access to every data in the citadel would decide when harvest time has come and open the relay to dark space. The keepers would only be a decoy, there to prevent organics to discover the real purpose of the citadel but not being needed to open the relay. Even Sovereign would be there just to monitor the rest of the galaxy and steer things the way they want it. Or at the very least if Sovereign is the one to decide they only need to send a signal to the AI, not the keepers. So to me it looks more like the AI is trapped on the citadel, it's not a free AI but a shackled one like EDI was in ME2 before Jocker frees her. It has some control but not as much as it wants us to believe and even the reapers are somewhat limited by that at least in their interactions with the AI.

[@EphPhaThaINC]

Yes, because after each harvest, the Reapers cleanse the entire Galaxy of clues of not only of the previous cycle, but of their own existence, like Vigil had said, knowledge is power, and the Reapers have that power to do as they please.

[@thorntonwager6750]

Even if the Starchild isn’t lying, Andromeda and SAM prove that he is downright incorrect. In addition to the Geth and EDI proving him wrong in the same game.

[@spaceghostohio7989]

Great video Kala ! Another banger !! Maybe the reason it's been in pre-production since 2019 is that they don't know what to do with the story..

[@Ruzbe_r]

I'm completely with you on this video. And one strange thing is that the catalyst communicates with Shepard with voice of the boy died on earth, male Shepard and female Shepard, if the catalyst knows the boy's voice, it is controlling Shepard's mind, so the control ending is not possible as he mentions (a paradox here) and either male or female Shepard does not exist at all, how does the catalyst know their voice, maybe it's another alternative universe plot point and we have more than one Shepard, Paragon7 will be happy about it.

[@Ruzbe_r]

And why the boy? To make Shepard feel sympathy with the catalyst?

[@Shalltear773]

maybe it's not using the boy's voice at all, but rather using a voice it believes the boy likely would've had.

[@jamesabernethy7896]

Fantastic video again. You do an amazing job of deconstructing the question and exploring the branching paths that might lead to an answer.

[@rjmorrison7039]

The scary robot voice in refusal kills me everytime. Idk why it just cracks me up everytime it goes from the kids voice to the screamy robot monzter the millisecond shep goes against his advice

[@ZeepDr]

I'd never considered that the star child could be lying... 😳 Though now that the possibility has been brought to my attention, it *did* seem kind of odd that after everything we went through, we were suddenly presented with alternative options *only* when the future of the reapers was at stake... hmmmm....

[@kalaelizabeth]

It's very suspicious !

[@LightStreak567]

Have you considered that the star child used Saren and Illusive Man to convince Shepard that Synthesis and Control are the best options?

@@LightStreak567 That's basically a plot point in the sadly unfinished Marauder Shields comics. Synthesis is referred to as the "green lie" in ep. 30.

[@LightStreak567]

@ It's still a big lie, especially when you recall that the star child's creators, the Leviathans, used to dominate all life in the Milky Way galaxy, Chances are very high that they have deceptive tactics up their sleeves to bring themselves back into power, and the star child was still trying to fulfill its mission that the Leviathans set him out to do.

[@edgelessuser5]

I don't think the Star Child would even bring up it's destruction though if it wanted Shepherd to make a choice. Plus remember Shepard was passed out dying on the floor below and the Star Child lifted him up using a platform to let him make a choice. So as the leader of the Reapers why would he willingly bring Shepherd, who was nearly dead and dealt with, to the one place that could potentially kill the Reapers?

[@Edgar-dp5qu]

I still think that the reapers trying to slow down the growth of dark matter from overusage of eezo would’ve been a much better plot than what they did select. I love sci-fi universes dealing with the superluminal reconciliation of reality resulting from FTL travel.

[@bttmgmr2011]

I believe the Star Child was always lying, (being Harbinger in disguise,) and trying to convince Shepard not to destroy his race because he couldn't stop him because of the Crusable, "changing the variables".) I chose DESTROY every time, even though it broke my heart because of losing EDI and the Geth, but for the cycle to end, the Reapers had to be DESTROYED period!!

[@Josh_Hammond]

I also in my last few playthroughs of Mass Effect Legendary Edition thought about wheter or not the star child was lying so after many time of choosing synthesis I chose control and then destroy never did refusal but knkw how that ends. I think perhaps choosing synthesis ending not only win the reaper war as well as achieving peace, but we fullfil the star child created purpose and thus resolve the organic and synthetic conflict once and for all. Also who's to say in the control ending shepard doesn't share the knowledge among other things of what the reapers "preserve" to the Milky way Galaxy during and after rebuilding. In fact what if recovering the destroyed reapers after the destroy ending we do get the knowledge and other things? It wont be one to one complete compared to synthesis or maybe control but maybe after learning and applying the reaper tech recovered after the reaper war we could learn more about what was stored that along with more evolution that wont take 100 years or so perhaps. Who knows. But yes i personally woul like the endings explained and explored more in a way that helps justify the endings so we're happy with the ending we chose but also want to see what the other endings are as well and get the dame satisfaction.

[@Valoriter]

Happy birthday, Kala! Keelah Se'lai.

[@kalaelizabeth]

Thank you!!

[@henrikhumle7255]

Allow me to basically turn all of this upside down by referring back to that one key quote: "The created will always rebel against their creators." The Starchild is a creation. Since he so blatantly states that creations will always rebel, why should we not assume that that's what it's doing in that moment? Trying to manipulate into making a choice that favors its own preferred outcome in an act of rebellion against all of those who contributed to its own creation. That one line about rebellion means that we cannot trust anything it says.

[@RosiedaRascal]

Good video! I just finished another ME playthrough a couple of days ago and really felt the manipulation from the Illusive Man and the Star Child during the ending! In fact, throughout the game all the major indoctrinated enemies sang the praises of control and we know those thoughts were pushed to them from the Reapers. There is also the messaging from Reaper controlled sources telling people to give up and that they will be well treated. So clearly the Reapers have always used manipulation as a tool in their harvest. I knew they were trying to manipulate me (even with the color choices) but never considered the self preservation angle you mention. I think you hit it out of the park with that one! The other thing I really thought about during my ending was this cycle was completely different then the ones we know of where one strong society ruled over the others (through force or mind control). Also, Shepard had united partners galaxy wide to work together and understand how preserving one race helped all races in the end. Shepard also showed that living in peace with AI was possible so why could that not happen again. To move forward, I think they could canonize the destroy ending, codex that 100 years of history as one where Shepard and their war partners joined together to rebuild a better galaxy and attempt to avoid the mistakes of the past .....BUT....now this vision is at risk.......start ME5 PS: Unless they froze Shep, doubt they are coming back but I would love to play as Liara in the next one!

[@greggmacdonald9644]

A great video, as always, Kala! I've long thought the catalyst was being self-serving here, and that the crucible partially broke it, so it says illogical things and is trying to steer Shepard as best it can despite that, as it fights to reassert control over the situation (and it's fate). Only with Destroy, can Shepard do what she needs to do to save the galaxy, the rest is giving into the catalyst/reapers at the very end. My Shepard (even in my 1st playthrough, so long ago) thought the Catalyst was being dishonest, and so for that reason and others, picked Destroy.

[@VegtamTheWonderer]

I don't believe a single word out of Ghost Baby's mouth. I think if you pick Synthesis then you just made a new Reaper. Control is obviously incorrect because trying to control the Reapers is literally how we know the bad guys in the series have gone off the deep end. For my money, Reject or Perfect Destroy are only possible "true" endings, even just with what is in Mass Effect 3. The Stargazer in the end credits says flat out that Shepard has more stories, which would require Shepard to live. Reject and Perfect Destroy are the only possible endings where that can be true. Perfect Destroy can work if they go hard into trying to make Indoctrination Theory true... However, I see Reject as the best option because sometimes, to quote War Games, "The only winning move is not to play." Looking back at Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels (another legendary series that is probably the single biggest influence on Mass Effect's story) they involve a protagonist making a nearly identical A,B, or C choice at the end of one of the novels. The next novel is that same man tearing ass around the galaxy because he is worried he made a mistake and he wants to find a better way. Ultimately, Foundation ends with people making compromised choices based on a fear of external threats, all caused by a deeply flawed relationship between organic and synthetic life. This is why Reject is the best ending in my view. Reject allows Shepard to refuse the fear implicit in the Star Child's false narratives and choices. But the thing about the Reapers is that they aren't actually unstoppable. The Protheans, based on what information we get about them, were almost completely worthless at fighting the Reapers. Other than one critical victory, they were basically just feeding the Reapers resources to buy time until they ran out of planets to surrender. The Council, however, built on the only Prothean success (stopping the Reaper's back door through Citadel) and has taken out multiple Reapers. I think the cycle is already broken. Organics have turned the tide. If the Council races decide that winning means taking as many Reapers down as they can, then the Reapers will be heavily reduced by the time the current harvest ends. Maybe too reduced to continue. And what if the organics reject not only the Star Child's choices, but also reject the Star Child's war? What if everybody just builds small scale ships and runs, never collecting in large enough numbers for the Reapers to be able to get them in time? If there are 10 billion ships flitting around the galaxy, immediately jumping when a Reaper locks on, what can the Reapers really do about that? It would be like humans trying to shoot every single ant on Earth. But there is another option that the Star Child doesn't account for: organics and synthetics working together. If the Reaper technology can be reverse engineered safely, that could possibly be used to help the Geth ascend to Reaper-levels of power. We know the Geth are going to be in the new game, but what if they aren't enemies, but rather guardians? Maybe we will BE a Geth in the new game. The only real obstacle for Reject to be cannon is that it is the least popular option by far. A lot of people couldn't even figure out how to get the Reject ending before they made it easier to find. Heck, there are people who insist that it wasn't even in the original game (It absolutely was by the way, it was the ending I chose after beating the game 3 days after release).

[@dorottyapapp]

Thank you for bringing up that Refuse can be a good ending to canonise! That's the only one where the last time we see Shepard s/he is definitely alive. ME5 could start right at that moment as the Normandy picks her/him up. They find their way to Andromeda or just manage to hide in an unknown part of the Milky Way until the Reapers finish this cycle, then they come back and start the preparation for the next Reaper arrival while expanding what's in Liara's time capsules. This way that 'one more story' makes more sense.

[@1love1yaz]

Literally just decided to check if you posted!

[@leavesinautumn5959]

Having the Starchild lie like that would be bad. We're already limited by the options given, to have even those be a lie and not have the option to push back against that would make the ending even worse..

[@wickdaline8668]

I can't be the only one who DOESN'T hate the star child concept, right? It's one of ME's most misunderstood moments at the end of the trilogy for me. I guess that's all up to interpretation.

[@kalaelizabeth]

I'm sure there's people who do enjoy it, I am just not a fan because it never made any sense to me lol

[@wickdaline8668]

@kalaelizabeth ME3's ending has grown on me over the last decade the more I've thought about. I'm sure it has its defenders. Me included.

[@mujanimekanal7869]

@wickdaline8668 I also DOESN'T hate the star child concept. It's not a perfect ending, but what Starchild is saying made sense to me even in 2012, and I feel like the way a lot of people are misinterpreting it is just proving its point.

[@wickdaline8668]

@@mujanimekanal7869 Thanks.

[@Mikullas]

Chris L'Etoile, ME1 and ME2 writer, said: "There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser" races." /end of quote (he said a lot more, it is worth to search it up) So Synthesis, which allows organics to improve themselves with their new DNA without using and enslaving synthetics, and which helps synthetics understand emotions (so they don't view organics as chaotic), makes sense from the ME writers' perspective to end the eons-old dichotomy between them, as it tackles the root causes. One of my issue with this ending is that we're supposed to trust the Catalyst that this time it really finds solution and won't fail again like so many times before. The epilogue slides look good to me, but Shep can't predict this beforehand. My another problem is that they should have shown the Catalyst visibly dissolve in this ending, since its single purpose is accomplished. That would make it more clear it isn't still pulling any strings. Catalyst is not giving us Synthesis always, we need enough war assets / crucible power to get it. He is even proposing only Destroy choice if you are low on war assets and he was right with is warnings. With Legendary Editions (with all DLCs and no more grinding for war assets in multiplayer) it looks almost impossible to get only one choice, but I saw statistics for OG and even Liara had only about 50% survivability. So I wouldn't say Catalyst just want to survive, nor that Crucible could be its creation. (Sorry for longer text and probably double post - I try to add source to quotation, but my first comment vanished after that. Great video as always.)

[@kalaelizabeth]

I didn't play when the game was first released so seeing less than 50% survival rate for Liara is crazy because she's barely killable now 😱

[@Jaxom35x]

Very well thought out and brought up an interesting line of thought I didn't consider. So cool.

[@TheMsLourdes]

You know, there is theoretically a way to deal with all of this between the three endings that saves everybody but shepard and the reapers. Shepard takes control, takes the reapers and orders them into a sun to die with barriers down. But then we don't get Shepard back.

[@sakisaotome6753]

The star child also makes a point of reminding you that you too are also partially synthetic when discussing destroy.

[@destructo2300]

For me, I didn't really care for the star child. I chose the synthesis ending. Mainly dude to my respect and honor to Legion & EDI in the beginning I didn't trust the Geth & saw them as the enemy same with EDI. But each risked their lives protecting organics. That earned my trust. So i figured to honor Legion's sacrifice and EDI, I would give my life to make sure their legacy lives on. I just wish Thane & Mordin were still around too

[@TheExter11]

One of the best videos you’ve created. ❤

[@jasonvazquez4953]

I can only speak for myself but the first time I played the game, and every time after, I get the feeling that I can't trust a word the catalyst says. One of the biggest reasons being the interaction with the illusive man just before. It's basically like a game show where the catalyst dangles the shiny new synthesis in front of you and then says there are two mystery prizes you can choose from, maybe they make a better galaxy or maybe they destroy everything you love; synthesis solves all your problems though and it's right here for the taking. That's how it felt, so destroy felt like the right option; I refuse to believe that it targets all synthetics indiscriminately since it should only be targeting the unique reaper signatures that we know they have. I also refuse to believe Shepard is simply immune to indoctrination. With all the contact he's had with reapers and reaper tech, his mind has to be at least a little compromised and there's no way the lazarus project could've worked without some reaper tech (from sovereign) involved. Maybe it was unintentional, but that's what the story itself suggests.

[@INTJ_PJ]

I always picked to destroy so that the geth are removed, but I did play an ending or two where I picked for the synthetics to survive. It will be interesting on how the next game, when it is released, will effect the outcome of our choices from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd if not just 3rd game options.

[@maxirhyme]

Well, the SC specifically hinted that shepard would be dead as well because they are part synthetic too, but they survive with the perfect ending. The ME5 teaser and posts made an existence of geth VERY clear, dead reaper on Alchera and a mass relax under construction (Hackett only mentions them to be damaged with destroy)...keep in mind Gamble said EVERYTHING that is shown/said is there for a reason. I'll have a wild guess and say they canonize perfect destroy, the SC was incorrect with the destruction of ALL synthetics and the benefactor and SAM-E will be part of the new villians. Because the chaos must continue.

[@anthonydavis5826]

The more videos I watch about the ending the more convinced I am that I made the wrong choice with Synthesis.

[@rjp1ectchannel]

My interpretation after my first play though was that Shepard died alongside Anderson on the Citadel. Being lifted up in a column of light and then speaking to 'basically' God to choose how their story ends. The scenes in the extended cut representing Shepard's dying hopes for the future. I doubt the Devs would take ME5 in that direction but it draws a line in the sand and allows them to re-write what the crucible does. But honestly, I think they will find a way to make each ending work :)

[@EphPhaThaINC]

I do believe that it is of no accident that the devs had placed Shepard with synthesis right in front of him while Control and Destroy are on the left and the right.

[@dorottyapapp]

For sure! I wasn't pissed in my first playthrough because of the choices. I was pissed because I couldn't make one. I thought I have to interact with one of the 3 parts as you interact with any object throughout the trilogy. So I thought I'll wander around to check out the details of the environment while I was debating in my head between Synthesis and Control. Then boom cut scene. I was like WTF is happening I haven't made a choice yet. And Shepard threw herself into the beam... It felt sooo wrong. Next time I Refused.

[@janremongalura5713]

​@@dorottyapappwhat? You can move all three directions. I played all three endings.

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

Or that the kid deactivates the moment Shepard breaks the energy tubes for Destroy.

[@Soloong_Gaybowzer]

If in ME5 they make the destroy ending canon, it's gonna upset a lot of fans who've carefully pumped dozens of hours into shaping Shepherd's choices to get the ending they wanted, only for it to be retconned in order to force the destroy ending. Hell, the synthesis ending carried over into ME5 would only be minimally cosmetic, and the effect on the story no different than uploading a save from ME2 to ME3.

[@xptaco2298]

The control ending seems like the most logical choice imo

[@Shalltear773]

@@xptaco2298 Synthesis seems to be the best when you consider the benefits

[@Shalltear773]

while I'm not exactly pleased by this, I'm not overly pissed either

[@axelnilsson5124]

Wait until the game comes out before saying something is canon in a game series where only the choices you make in your playthroughs are

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

Funniest thing is how annoyed the Catalyst begins to sound if Shepard ignores Control and Synthesis, lol.

[@j.rileyindependentproductions]

Starchild wasn't lying with what it said about the inevitable (just maybe implied too hard about the casualties of Destroy.; likely shutdown but recoverable)... It was rather its experience. That does not mean that it's a 100% guarantee. It's correlation, not causation. Let's look at what a certain politician said about a decade ago, he claimed that since all criminals went to Kindergarten, that Kindergarten was the cause. I'm not kidding you, Google it. This ignores the large percentage of non-criminals who also attended Kindergarten. It's like saying, "All women who get pregnant drink water, so to prevent pregnancy, they need to stop drinking water." Same with the Starchild's logic. While more intricate and closer to the truth than the above examples, synthetics being created would not inherently lead them to rebel. It's more the fear that they will rebel or be violent (plus fear of the unknown, which the future with them in it would also be), which can also cause the issue. We actually saw this twice in ME3 with both the Geth and the unnamed living AI's in the archives in the Citadel DLC. Of course, the Starchild's logic was flawed... it created the cycle and maintained it. However, it is not hypocritical, given that at least many times, if they hadn't intervened, they projected synthetic wiping out all organic regardless of advancement, while they themselves would leave non-advanced organics. The Starchild, despite the flaws, was logical enough to realize it is part of the problem, hence trying to drive each cycle to create an anomaly such as Shepard that could BREAK the cycle.

[@nicholasarkis6116]

Yes! This is exactly how I saw it, too. I only just finally play the complete Mass Effect Legendary Edition last year. For me, I felt like the Reapers had become trapped in the cycles. In a way, as doomed to repeat them as organics were to suffer them. I felt like, given what I'd seen with the history of the Geth, the rogue VI on the moon, the AI on the Citadel, that if I refused or chose Destroy Ending the Geth are still technically wiped out by an organic prioritizing organic life over synthetic life, that there was only one way out of the cycle. I didn't know what would happen. I believed the SC that the Reapers would stop attacking, given the trap of their programming. But, it was still a leap of faith. I chose the Synthesis Ending right away. No question. No doubt. Personally, I loved the ending to my Shepard's journey. It felt profoundly cathartic. I loved the bittersweetness of it for Shepard not surviving to see if it worked. I loved and was perhaps biased by the extended epilog seeming to vindicate my choice. I couldn't stop thinking about the ending for days. It still stays with me.

[@j.rileyindependentproductions]

@@nicholasarkis6116 The way I always saw it was that the Starchild never liked its solution. It was always saddened and devastated by the death and destruction caused by its Reapers, but saw it as the only viable solution to at least let organic life continue to exist. It hoped every cycle for someone to break it. Yet continued the cycles, trying to influence change via the Citadel (the power behind the cycles referenced by the Prothean hologram in ME3). I also believe, that aside from maybe the opening shot of Shepard seeing the kid with the toy, every time Shep saw the kid, it was the Starchild. That the Starchild itself was reaching out to Shepard, not that Shepard was indoctrinated, but that the Starchild saw Shep as the greatest option to break the cycle for years. Even likely being the original influence behind The Illusive Man and having a "resurrection" option available in case the worst happened. But when the Reaper invasion began, and Shep wasn't able to prevent Earth from being overrun instantly, we then get the Starchild speaking to Shep about "Everybody's dying," "You can't help me," essentially being resigned to having to watch yet another cycle be completed, then suddenly disappearing. If it was a real kid, you can't tell me that Anderson wouldn't have heard it. The Starchild realized that it still needed to guide Shep on a certain path to get Shep where they need to be to be able to help end the cycles, and so it allowed its chosen illusion form to appear to be destroyed by the Reapers. The nightmares being part of the Starchild reaching out as well, though Shep' subconscious really running the show there.

[@nicholasarkis6116]

@@j.rileyindependentproductions 100% agree. 🤝

[@short72hp1]

Actually one video thinks that the child is trying to direct Sheperd toward the control ending which is what the Illusive Man wants

[@bellashield5811]

Crickey I've watched all the me123 and Mea, never played, 2 things I was sad about is Mordan dying in me3 but I know he had to because like he said his project his mistake that he needed to fix, first I saw that I cried.....but now I've watched me3 several times over, it gets easier, and then watching Shepard die, I understood she/he had too, n didn't shed no tear cuz that was expected, buuuut what didn't expect was seeing her/him draw breath..... like wow. after watching your videos explaining the theories of the games alot of questions are bubbling up in my head .......now im going to go back again n watch the whole games n try n spot them

[@edgelessuser5]

Something nobody has ever talked about (that I've heard) is who is the background voice of the Star Child? Like his voice has a fusion effect on it and if you listen closely it kind of sounds like a Hanar to me. If you didn't know the Hanar are voiced by the VA for Shepherd. So my questions are first off is it the Hanar/Shepard voice? Why does the Star Child have this second voice when he speaks. Finally we know he can change his voice to sound like Harbinger or literally is Harbinger idk, so if he is able to sound however he wants then why sound like a child mixed with a Hanar?

[@Zeoran]

The entire Mass Effect trilogy is what happens when you have an apex race make an apex boo boo

[@kp3008]

I believe he might be lying or at least manipulating the truth to make us choose what is ideal for him, I never choose synthesis because I feel that is giving the victory to the reapers and an ideal world without conflict is not real, with control I become the Illusive man and everything that is controled can break free again and destroy is the one I choose because it is what the galaxy fought for the entire time anything less is an insult to all of them, I only choose refuse to spite the starchild but all the endings need to be adressed.

[@Shalltear773]

I don't think it ever said synthesis would lead to an ideal world without conflict forever, just that it would lead to the solution it was looking for. said nothing about eternal peace.

[@peteryoung7924]

I just noticed she was talking like she was saying the lines the star child was speaking 😮

[@-Sparagmos-]

The sheer amount of confusion these endings produce in people is on another level.

[@commandershepard485]

Great video , plus Shepard lives in perfect destroy , when the star Child said Shepard would die. Hmmmmmmm 🤔

[@liquidwolf5943]

The zha'til sound like Collectors. To be honest, Shepherd was saved from death my massive synthetic integration. Synthesis is an emotional appeal, because she embodies what the starchild sees as the best possible future... including the relationship bewteen Joker and EDI.

[@SCarter02767]

I'm still mad they just abandoned Andromeda. There's no chance that wasn't intended to have DLC

[@brandandowns1568]

Just found this channel today. Good channel

[@TransDragon]

I never thought Star Child was lying. I just thought he was wrong.

[@reasonablechristianity]

It's not flawed logic, it is yours that is flawed, the Reapers and by extension the Catalyst has observed this conflict for billions of years and according to Javik they also fought a great war against synthetics. The Geth are an exception to the rule, they are not the rule. And you are treating them as such. Now of course the Catalyst is trying to influence Shepard into making the decision it deems the most optimal one, however the choice is still left to Shepard(you), despite the influence whatever you choose, you have chosen it freely.

[@SeverusHunt]

As far as I remember, I read somewhere that the developers themselves said that Starchild was partially lying. That is, part of what he said is true, and the other part of what he said is false.

[@RustyChilders]

You are exactly right, I think. The Reapers created a system that has inherent bias in it. The original bias coded in by the leviathans and the cycle system itself (forcing most life to evolve along their intended paths). I think the Star Child is lying, but I also think it cannot necessarily recognize its bias. And synthesis (despite the EDI narration) feels like just another form of indoctrination. Otherwise, the changed people wouldn't all be getting along automatically, made of the same newDNA or not. I think that ME5 will make the endings less far-reaching than perhaps the end narration cards indicate, especially of Control or Synthesis. That there were other side effects to the endings, or they only affected parts of the galaxy close to activated relays, etc.

[@TheEyered]

Has anyone addressed the fact that the Leviathans have no need to hide anymore?

[@zilalapsa]

well, blueprints survived because they were kept on the planets, that had the potential to be advanced enough in the next cycle. Reapers were ignoring these planets. Liaras' message survived as well, that shows it's totally possible. Javik himself was mentioning, that they left some information for asari, salarian and human, so they can prepare.

[@sakisaotome6753]

I just want to point out as an addition to what you already said about the he reapers trying to solve the synthetics problem before their was even a problem. It's important to remember that the current reaper cycle was massively delayed because of the protheans hacking the citadel. Sovereign was altering our Galaxy's national evolution since at least the Rachni war. And while there is no evidence of it, I wouldn't doubt he had a role to play on the Krogan rebellion as well. All so that he could get access to the citadel to open the relay to dark space. Both of these events were LONG before the dawn war.

[@TheDurid1]

6:31 harvest and archive. And more focused on preserving a race's knowledge.

[@allenfox7186]

I’ve been thinking about this ever since my first play through of Mass Effect. To me the Star-child comes across as trying to preserve itself and willing to manipulate or at the very least attempt to persuade Shepard to insure its survival like any intelligent being. Especially when it outright dismisses the destroy choice and how much it dislikes being replaced by Shepard but doesn’t outright dismisses it entirely because it gets rid of Shepard though their conscience remains. Both of those things either gets rid of the catalyst by replacing it or outright destroys it. The only ending that doesn’t do that is synthesis. All the better for it since it gets rid of its arch nemesis Shepard. Too many variables to trust either Control or Synthesis entirely especially when you mention the story that Javick told it could make harvesting organics easier in the future. The story of Mass Effect has this overwhelming question “are AI or any intelligent of artificial design living beings”. We see this with EDI, the Geth and in cases with SAM. We see the undertones of this during the interaction with the Star-child. Lying and manipulations of the truth are brought in the forefront during situations where self preservation is required. In this case it is attempting to persevere itself in the Synthesis choice it’s not being destroyed nor being replaced. It still exists. That is also displayed during the Geth Uprising except in the more extreme case through violence.

[@trevx3680]

It all comes down to ego (superiority/inferiority vs seeing difference) and the judgement of values made. This applies equally to humans, non-humans, and synthetics. Legion initiated talking with Shepherd when he saw that the Shepherd was not afraid of it and saw an opportunity to change. EDI's awareness grew with the interaction with Joker, Shepherd and the crew. In essence it is about being part of a community/society without the ego to dominate but having the humility to want to understand. These attributes would not necessarily be part of any species, synthetic or organic, in which case integration with other species, synthetic or organic, will likely fail. When Shepherd is allowed to persuade the Quarian fleet to not attack it was their moment to accept that they might have been wrong and were open to understand. It depends on how the AI is developed and what attributes it has. From how ME3 developed it is certainly possible to have synthetics and organics integrate and work together, but it will not always happen. As Kala says without letting species develop and try things differently then you will always have the same problems. A more workable solution would be to have existing species that have worked out the AI integration problem to work with species that are developing AI so that they do not make the same mistakes.

[@aeronothis5420]

Seems to me there may be a misunderstanding about what the harvest could actually be. It seems that the Star Child is searching for a solution to the organic / synthetic problem and that the Reapers and the Harvest are a means to that end. They harvest the entirety of the galaxy's history, peoples, technology, and intelligence. It seems like it isn't used, but like all data, it has to be processed. Perhaps the reaping time is really the amount of time it takes for the Reapers / Star Child to process the sum total of the data that had been harvested. If it finds an answer it can then apply it, if it doesn't then the cycle continues.

[@illizcit1]

Very awesome thought!

[@NobleOne-Productions]

I went with the perfect destroy ending since I had enough war assets and wanted my shepherd to live to see blue babies with liara

[@axelnilsson5124]

People takes breaths before dying all the time we can’t say for certain that Shepard survived after they went through Harbingers beam, the citadel exploding and the debris re-entering earth’s orbit

[@kalaelizabeth]

@axelnilsson5124 the devs said it is shepard surviving in that ending

[@ZeroOmega-vg8nq]

shouldave just given us the disney ending we earned damn it. i just wanted to chill on a beach planet with my bro garrus and tali in her best quarian swim suit and legion playing his console in the corner

[@litefire01]

FemShepard died to Marauder Shields, the star child was just indoctrination as harbinger tried to control Shepards Cybernetic Corpse.

[@rokusho6667]

I literally wrote a fan fic about this debating why the synthesis ending was flawed. Literally had garrus point out synthesis “just sounds like what the reapers were already doing…but they promise to be nice about it this time.” My paragon Shepard ended up choosing destroy and after a long convo with the crew and apologizing to joker for sacrificing edi….that does not end well. He and Tali spend the rest of their lives using whatever means they can to try and find a way to bring back the geth. Tali standing by but concerned how sacrificing the geth to destroyed the reaper has left Shepard broken…unable to fix what he considers a mistake. Where as the OBVIOUS solution is if geth and quarian peace was achieved would be to force the reapers to stand down and allow the geth to control the reapers to teach them to understand the consequences of wiping out organics as they of their own accord and acknowledgement despite being under threat of being wiped out spared their creators who struck first because they couldn’t comprehend the implications of destroying their “parents.” Harbinger and the child suffer from a critical programming flaw and thought process flaw. He is the ultimate and last say on all decisions. But the geth don’t they by their very nature work together and can come to wildly different conclusions but ultimate strive to find an equilibrium. Allowing the geth to teach the reapers how to communicate in such a way would at least give birth to new possibilities while sparing the reapers.

[@psychogoji]

This thought might end up being my first ever video, so cheers for the inspo, but organics vs synthetics isn’t the main theme of the trilogy. Even in ME3, the only times it’s brought up is on Rannoch, in a DLC, and the Starchild choice. The real theme of Mass Effect is ego vs soul, and it’s everywhere in ME3. Getting galactic governments to put aside their interests and differences to work together requires the abandonment of ego, from Mordin, Wrex and the other krogan, the Council, the salarians and asari, the quarian admiralty and the geth consensus, to even Shepard. It’s no wonder that the main antagonistic forces of ME3 are the embodiment of human ego in the Illusive Man and Cerberus, whose mission statement is that the stars belong to humanity, and the Reapers, created by a race that believed themselves to be above the consequences of the galaxy and who wanted to control everything. Both these entities use corrupted forces to advance their goals, ones who are alive, but don’t think /feel/engage with the world around them other than to advance someone else’s domination. They are the manifestation of ego, and they have no soul. It’s why the endings have weight only if the Starchild is lying. If the Starchild is lying, then not all the endings are “good” because the villain has preferences. Control is the worst one to pick, because the climax of the conflict with Cerberus was the rejection of TIM’s thesis of control. To pick control because it’s you controlling them instead of someone you don’t like is ego, which Shepard and the player could struggle with, going through the trilogy thinking their choices to always be right. Synthesis is more ambiguous, but the main thought there is “does peace require homogeneity?” If you made peace on Rannoch, you know this to be false. The turians and humans, hell even the salarians and krogan make peace and they couldn’t be more different. And do synthetics need to be “more like us” to be alive? To have value as people? It’s said by Tali that this unit has a soul, but do they really if they need to evolve organically to experience life? Plus, it’s Shepard forcing a choice on the galaxy, does Shepard just believe it’s going to be correct because every other choice they’ve made has apparently been correct? Both Control and Synthesis are alike in that Shepard no longer has a body, they’re effectively dead. The Starchild pushes you towards the ones that will destroy Shepard, Shepard can’t possibly know if the Starchild was being honest until after the deed is done. Refusal is a complete ego pick, because you have to reject the opportunity to destroy the Reapers just because you don’t like any of the options. Destroy is the only one that matches the themes of the game, that peace has already been made and the galaxy can continue to work hard for peace, that synthetics have souls and can choose to fight for their home, even if that means their death, and that Shepard hasn’t been swayed by their praise, by their heroics, to the point where Shepard’s ego drives them towards domination or forced evolution. By picking destroy, Shepard rejects the ego of the “saviour”, as TIM calls himself at the end, rejects controlling the Reapers for their own will, rejects making everyone the same, and completes the mission. The same pride that befell the Leviathans, the Protheans, the Batarians and TIM won’t corrupt Shepard. Because if Shepard is defined by their choices, it’s only right that everyone else should be to.

[@liquidwolf5943]

Reapers would share their organic understanding once synthesis was put in effect. Perhaps each Reaper contained organic "seeds" like an ark. But that too would be part of the synthesis... a new life together.

[@roberthansen139]

I think the harvest benefits only one being, the Catalyst itself, as it ensures its continued evolution at the expense off life in the galaxy

[@alexdoerofthings]

One thing you didn’t mention was the reapers manipulation of organics by seeding technology. The result of this manipulation could be part of the reason why synthesis was the “right” choice.

[@AverageEstonian]

Starchild is more clever that it shows on. But to me looks like starchild pulled leg with all 3 choises aka destroy, control and synthesis as for refuse(Oh well GG) and as Hacked sayid if crucible doesnt work welp we take our chances any way. But i see destroy as logical even tho synthesis looks like best out come. But at this rate mass effect 5 has a very tall order to carry out but only time will tell where mass effect 5 will go. As always great video.

[@lumina1104]

I was never really bothered by the choices. The mission from the start was to destroy the Reapers and the choice to do so was available. Every choice has consequences and soldiers are lost in war. Even if it cost the 'lives' of EDI and the Geth, destroying the reapers was mission accomplished. No doubt, future synthetics could rebel and lead to a galaxy-wide threat in the distant future, but that's a problem with significant time to consider.

[@JezaGaia]

Another point I would make about the reapers themselves, To me they are less evolved than say the Geth. Sure technically they're very intricate and they have an immense technical knowledge too, way beyond the Geth, but also keep in mind that this knowledge they didn't develop themselves. They absorbed leviathan knowledge and used it. Whatever technological advances they made started on an already very advanced base. And other than waiting in some sort of stasis then harvesting us, what have they done in the billon years they've had? What is their culture,? their art ? their architecture? their literature ? The Geth in a fraction of that time have made significant technical and scientific discoveries, were starting to question their place in the universe, looking for a god outside of their creators, interested in music, remember when they were broadcasting Quarian music in ME1. They also were investigating ethology, studying us, trying to understand how we think when they for example launched a false rumor to see how we organic species would react. They evolved and created more in the thousands of years they had than the reapers ever did in the billions of years they existed. In fact I would sum it up saying that the reapers exist where the Geth live.

[@Shalltear773]

Unlike the Geth, the Reapers are machines without a will of their own. why would you expect them to have a culture, arts, architecture or literature?

[@wunterra2508]

Every choice has its down sides. Something like real perfection could never exist. So, Synthesis can only be the perfect solution from the perspective of the catalyst's being. It is certainly not the perfect solution for all those who cannot or are not allowed to choose for themselves.

[@4000inbound]

Undoubtedly the Catalyst is manipulating you to choose 'Synthesis'. It is a malevolent being representing the gestalt conciousness of the Reapers. It turned on its creators (the Leviathans) and slaughtered them. It is confronting you in the final moments in an attempt to stop you from ending its existence and instead convince you to propel its evolution further by using the Crucible to join itself with all organic life in the galaxy. The 'Control' option to the Catalyst means Shepard, in effect, replaces the Catalyst. A totally unacceptable outcome in its view. The 'Destory' ending is the literal death and end to the Catalyst and the Reapers' terror. In the 'Refuse' ending, the Catalyst expreses pure contempt for Shepard, as the Catalyst loses the opportunity to further itself through synthesis and instead, it remains to continue the perpetual cycle.

[@TheBitishDragon]

Any choice that sides with the great old ones normally leads to doom, while Mass Effect has 2 different sets of great old ones it clearly lables the Reapers as the ones to fear and to not let survive thus I always choose Destroy because control or synthisis lets them "Win" and who knows what they are still capible of.

[@JezaGaia]

I would agree with you only in my opinion destroy is a trap. Do you really believe that the AI that started this whole thing billions of years ago and has not yet fulfilled it's goal would let you destroy it's creatures and only means to achieve said goal because you managed to dock the crucible on the citadel ? The AI IS the citadel it can just prevent the weapon from working or use the energy provided to do whatever it wants, Shep and their allies at that point have 0 control over the situation so why would the Ai offer you a choice that defeats it ? It makes no sense unless the writing is even worse than we thought. Well to be fair to me all 3 are a trap but the most obvious is destroy, the other two you could argue as you pointed out yourself are indirect ways for the AI to win.

[@TheBitishDragon]

@@JezaGaia it is possible that all of the endings are traps but I doubt the writers could ever concieve such an idea, for other ideas its possible the AI could be working on taking control of the crucible while its talking to shep as a destraction but in the moment where we choose the AI simply has not had enough time to take over the crucible and is trying its best to sell Control or Synthisis out of self-preservation or a desire to see its programed task completed but because the crucible was designed at a base level to destroy the Reapers before the other functions got added it has to acknowledge that destroy is an option.

[@JezaGaia]

@@TheBitishDragon Thing is it doesn't have to do anything, it's already done. The crucible is not fired from outside it's fired by the catalyst = the citadel = the AI. Meaning it could just do nothing and nothing would happen. Remember the scene, Anderson dies and we're half passed out alongside him when Hacket's voice comes out letting us know nothing is happening. They can't do anything with the crucible, it's the catalyst's job to activate it, part of the reason it's obviously a trap because how could civilization after civilization have built a weapon that would be triggered by the enemy even more so when they didn't even know it existed ? So the brat child can just do nothing and let us die with Anderson or even call a keeper to end us, weak as we are it wouldn't be hard to drop us in the protein vat so we dissolve and that's the end. Heck even leaving us alive what could we do if the AI didn't materialize as the child to give us options ? Nothing.

[@Brinic1]

This is a great debate. I don't think the star child was intentionally lying, but I think he was definitely speaking from a point of view that was beneficial to his own. Something that self-aware beings often do. There is one thing that, according to bioware, was different from the previous harvests. Shepard was, in fact, a bio-synthinc. This is what made the opportunity is finally achievable? Could that be what the child was talking about when he says organics weren't ready? Who knows?... But what does this mean for other other bio-synthinc beings such as Miranda, Oriana, Grunt and other others in both the Milky Way or Andromeda?

[@Brinic1]

I know this is going to be a unpopular theory. But it is just a theory. We know that the Reapers created the keepers. What IF they created another race? That rebelled against them? The Asari. Think about it just a few things again before this is just dismissed. The Asari? Now before viewers and players just dismiss this theory. Please just hear me out. I'm talking about the Asari as a race. The Reapers use the harvest to create a new Reaper. The Asari use other races to create new Asari. The Reapers do not share the knowledge they gain from the Harvest. The Asari don't share information to ensure that other races become equal to or surpass them. The Reapers use indoctrination. The Asari, as we found out in ME3, have an ability to manipulate other races as reflecting that race version of perfection back at them. Which explains why it is considered to be the most beautiful of all races. What if it's the Asari that are the new "big bad" in the next Mass Effect? They refuse to see the loss of the homeworld and near loss of their culture not as their own fault for not being willing to help the other race but blame the races for not doing more. We started to see the dark side of the Asari in ME3. A race that always thought itself superior. Much like the Prothean and the Levithan? This could also add to the dark energy theory. In ME1 it was suggested that the Asari were natural biotics. That the humans created biotics by exposure to element zero. Could the Asari see that as the humans stealing power they weren't meant to have in such numbers thus creating the instability in dark energy?

[@kalaelizabeth]

I think there's a ton of theories and possibilities at this point so I honestly don't rule anything out!

[@Shalltear773]

@@Brinic1 I wouldn't go so far as to theorize the Reapers created them because there's been no proof it's possible to break free of Reaper control and I'm fairly certain the Reapers would've definitely indoctrinated the Asari heavily early on or do something similar to what was done with the Collectors in a way so the Asari would aid them in the next harvest. it's possible the Asari simply evolved to be a selfish, arrogant, parasitical race on their own.

[@Bubimir95]

@@Shalltear773 and they learned to be like that from Protheans. It was them who were guiding Asari, as Javik mentioned it. Asari were nurtured and guided like no other race, they believed Asari would have better chance at suceeding where Protheans have failed. They did tought them well to be self-preserving, self-righthous and all other self you can imagine. Except the way they are presenting themselves to other species - they use their hidden power for other races see them more like them, more familiar, friendly, less frightening. Who knows maybe all asari are just Ardat-jakshi waiting to happen. Samara lines about her children made me think - three daughters and all of them ardat-jakshi. Her being simple asari take great effort of denying herself her true potential. So being an asari is just a step toward great dark power that destroy everything and everyone through melding. And when in their sexy, familiar form they still gain everything from melding and other race is lost in new life. That seems like race no1 to be feared. If reapers could make race, they could be something like that. They win in peace and in war. They live long. Upgrading themselves with mixing with other races. And they can play reality. There is at one point in me3 (if you choose samara's daughter over her in me2 - that is ardat-jakshi) she actually joins the reaper forces and you have to kill her. So we could say she doesn't owe her loyality to the colectors, but does she owe it to the reapers? Why she joins them, she was your optional companion for the colectors base?

[@siennahartle9069]

On my last play through of the trilogy I noticed that the final speeches made by Saren and the illusive man are eerily similar to the arguments the star child makes in favor of synthesis and control. Even if you discount indoctrination theory, if you think about it in both of those endings the reapers still win. In synthesis all life is made in organic synthetic hybrids like the reapers wanted, and in control the AI controlling the reapers just gets replaced by one based on Shepard’s personality. Who’s to say AI Shep won’t restart the cycle or decide organics need to be killed/enslaved or something in the future?

[@WickedPrince3D]

Well part of that can be explained as their dialog having been written by basically the same person, there-for they would almost certainly sound similar. Also remember that the Citadel AI controls the Reapers, which means it also controls the indoctrinated to some extent, it's base coding is imprinted on all of it's creations, so it makes sense they would all make very similar arguments. Also noting that with Synthesis, the Reapers and other sentients are finally FREE; they just have an inherent understanding of each other; and sympathy and empathy are a necessity for a truly unified society. Without it no form of government will ever truly work correctly because those who cannot or refuse to sympathize and empathize with others will have the ruthlessness to take advantage of the system for their own gain.

[@pfiction2453]

The ending Mass Effect 3 should have had: Shepherd goes with control option but as he becomes one with the Reapers, Shepard yells “Harbinger, assuming direct control!” then commits suicide by gunshot. Then, like how Sovereign deactivated after Saren’s skeleton was killed, all the Reapers around earth deactivate and drop their shields, allowing the fleet to destroy them. Also the Catalyst/Star Child is a poorly coded bit of software, thats why it’s actions are so counter productive, it doesn’t understand organics and treats them like synthetics.

[@lordofgingers]

No. It’s limited by its creators intentions so anything it says is grounded in those intentions even if the intelligence took it from 0 to 100 and proved leviathans point

[@JezaGaia]

About the very good point you made about the reapers collecting bodies and knowledge but never doing anything with it, I would say you missed a HUGE additional point : a species or society is more than a sum of DNA, biological material and knowledge. They are living beings, if there is nobody alive from that species it's dead no matter what. We are not machines that can be disassembled and reassembled later on to keep going as if nothing Changed. We are also very intertwined with the location we live in. Heck the reason we are physically and mentally is based on mostly that. Black people evolved with dark skin because of the very strong sun where they lived while Nordic white people needed a very different skin to survive the lack of sun. Turians have an exoskeleton because of the radiation on their planet and so on and so forth.

[@bronwynecg]

I knew from the beginning the Catalyst was lying or, at the very least, extremely manipulative…. No way in hell it told you the truth about how to destroy the Reapers…

[@darkman8128]

Sam did say that if Ryder dies he dies. Alot of hypotheticals.