The Army of the Dead is Bullsh*t

[@BabyXiuhcoatl]

One of my favorite parts in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields [book] is when Pippin is running to find Gandalf at the city gates. As Pippin flies down the narrow lanes, he passes many men who have abandoned their posts at the defense of the city, and are now running mad with despair. And yet, some of the men when seeing the 'Halfing Prince' running toward the danger and not away from it; return to their senses and again take up their posts at the defense of Minas Tirith.

[@Prince_Oli]

That is awesome! I wish they would have added that to the movie.

[@rebelresource]

Even the form of a child can inspire. Beautiful. May we return to our posts in life with bravery!

[@LoudCommentor]

Dang. Pippin has the same effect as Gandalf then, bringing courage and hope to men wherever he goes. What a moral!

[@TheRogueJedii]

Imagine seeing a dude half you size going towards danger with twice your courage. That would definitely be a wake up call for any that calls himself a man.

[@shadyloc4018]

Yeah that was an epic part of the book. Pippin gave new breath to their hearts

[@stevesherman1743]

“Men fight because they love what is behind them. Orcs fight because they hate what is in front of them. And they fear what is behind them.” Brilliant !

[@AFGuidesHD]

Not really because men also fear getting shot or shamed for not fighting.

[@joshgaston7839]

@@AFGuidesHD But men don't enlist because of fear, they enlist to protect what they love.

[@AFGuidesHD]

@@joshgaston7839 and until a few years ago, they enlisted because they were forced to, kinda like orcs.

[@joshgaston7839]

@@AFGuidesHD Not sure where you live but, no one in my country (USA) is forced to enlist..

[@AFGuidesHD]

@@joshgaston7839 which is why I said "until a few years ago". Conscription was a thing in the USA until about the late 70s. and don't think the US government wouldn't bring it back if they needed to.

[@FlymanMS]

So what you’re saying is they should’ve made Nazgul more like debuffing dark heroes instead of just unique air units and made the scenario not just a timed tower defence mission.

[@master_samwise]

LMAO yeah pretty much

[@floriL3636]

The soldiers of men should just have positioned themselves in the south-eastern entrance of the map so they could have attacked their enemies one after another instead of letting them walk and gather all before the City.

[@noleftturnunstoned]

I thought they did an ok job communicating the dread inspired.

[@vde5070]

@floriL3636 reference to BFME?

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

They should have evacuated the women and children to the upper floors days prior to the attack instead of on the literal night that the gates were breached.

[@JaredLB1990]

Dude, I’ve been saying this same thing for years. Jackson missed out on Aragorn’s arrival. It wasn’t just reinforcements, it was the return of the king. While the Witch King turned turned hope to despair, Aragorn turned despair into hope. It’s legit the one scene I tell people was messed up in the movie, and so much better in the book.

[@desmondd1984]

Gondor in general is handled pretty poorly. I know PJ thought it was too late to introduce new characters, but Beregond and Imrahil both humanize and legitimize Gondor as a real kingdom, and that's largely missing from the movies. You have Denethor and Faramir, and a bunch of terrified soldiers. Not much of a kingdom.

[@suilles]

@@desmondd1984but look at the hobbit then? the moment the dwarf king comes out and leads the army himself. that was also in the book in that way. what did people say? "oh wow 13 extra dwarfs added to the army then they win the battle" the same would of been said of the grey company. the casual viewer needed the big hero army to save the day. yes the movie is made for the fans but only the fans wont bring in enough money thats where the casual viewer come in. many many people watch the movie but never read the book or know that there is a bigger story. do you think the casual viewer understand what gandalf is? ofcoure not they know he is a wizard. but they dont know he is a demi god kind of being. casual people also dont really know how a kingdom is. they see a big city with alot of land around so thats what people believe the kingdom is. many people believe the metal armor can also be stabbed through.

[@desmondd1984]

@@suilles "casual viewer", "casual people", "many people" Is that what you think we are here? lol

[@suilles]

@desmondd1984 us? No. But there are many. I wish the whole book be in the movie but that be like 10-12 hour movie.

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

@@suilles A solution could be to inflate the numbers of the dunedain. If the company is larger it makes their charge into a massive army less disbelief-suspending and heightens the morale impact they could have. Another way would be to have the ghosts just be a regular fighting force with normal moving speed and not too great in numbers that acts like a timer on the side of the orcs. They're not magically fixing the fight for men but they're giving them a reason to hold on and buy some time in the hopes of rescue. That shift in morale makes orcs desperate and they start to cave, abandoning formations or fighting disorderly and turning the tide of battle in favour of Men. The problem of the goo is that it robs men of the chance to demonstrate what's their biggest strenght. Their hope and courage in the face of certain doom when led by righteous leadership. That chance is then given again in the battle in front of the black gate and that's probably why they cut Minas Tirith short. Every scene in a film must have a function and if it's function is served by another they get cut or modified. I think the point of the one we got is to show Aragorn is a man of his word and is not willing to take shortcuts to victory if it means breaking promises.

[@fgdj2000]

When I finally read the books, I was amazed at how much more complex this battle was portrayed and how many more layers, characters and even factions are involved. Gondor is an actual kingdom with multiple cities and "states", not just a single city in a barren field. Jackson oversimplified it, but it still generally works. It also made me accept some of his Hobbit changes more.

[@desmondd1984]

Exactly. I always hated the impression that Gondor was just this one city. Gondor is a large kingdom containing many smaller fiefdoms across the Southwest of Middle-Earth. There is one line from Gandalf, "where are Gondor's armies?", and in the extended edition, you do see some smaller villages being burned by the Corsairs, but overall it's not done justice.

[@fgdj2000]

@@desmondd1984 Yes, end of course the Ghost Ex Machina so to speak. As a kid I was always wondering, why don't they just keep this amazing invulnerable army and kick Sauron's butt? Also, Middle Earth in general feels smaller in the movies. More like the size of the British Isles at most rather than the whole of Europe (which is what Tolkien more accurately envisioned as I understand it). Even Mordor is a full country with fortresses, gorges, landmarks and more. In the films it seems more like a City-sized area at most. But again I understand that you had to simplify things in adapting it to the screen. And I think Jackson really did the impossible and managed to still maintain the essence of the book, the feel, the thematic material.

[@Macejkos]

@@fgdj2000 That is true. The scale should be portrayed better. I have just one problem with Tolkien and his books when it comes to most battles. He throws in some usually insane numbers, then good wins in most cases "somehow".

[@fgdj2000]

@@Macejkos I'm not sure if it *should* be portrayed differently. It's Peter Jackson's interpretation after all. Within the context of the films it also worked really well and adding more factions and elements might have been confusing and/ or might have slowed the film down needlessly. As it is it is still an amazing sequence to be honest, both the theatrical and extended versions.

[@mylesleggette7520]

@@fgdj2000 I do think the movie did an okay job of making it clear why Aragorn released the army rather than trying to use them against Sauron, at least in the extended editions. I mean, they made it pretty clear that they were cursed because they were kingslaying traitors, and that if Aragron didn't release them they would have done the same to him. He hardly had a choice...

[@isaacmcallister5649]

“One does not simply adapt an entire book series into three movies.” It just can’t be done and frankly they did their absolute best with the medium of art they had and were familiar with.

[@vonborgah]

yeah making a movie from a book to have it word to word accuracy is not possible

[@senditkevin]

​@@vonborgahEspecially with way Tolken writes.

[@joemoe650]

​@@senditkevin I disagree, i havent read them all, but two towers is much expanded in the movies. Much of how tolkien writes ks descriptions, which is perfect for adaptation.

[@senditkevin]

@@joemoe650 I suppose the differences between books and the movies is something could take an entire page to describe can be shown in a few seconds, depending what it is, but also something that is very easy to write about could be more difficult to translate onto a screen. Helms deep did seem to take up quite a bit of 2 towers movie so that's fair.

[@LuaanTi]

@@senditkevin Helm's Deep was a very small part of the book; Jackson just wanted a big battle for the second movie - fair enough. His changes to the battle are quite weird, mostly oriented about making the characters bigger and more in conflict. A lot of ridiculous teleportation and ignoring logistics too - a particularly egregious example being the Elven army, which seems to have mostly been added to make Aragorn's idiotic new conflict arc seem as if Aragorn is in the right. Just don't think too hard about how the army (on foot) magically travels those hundreds of miles from their homes in time for battle, and ignore that they have their hands full with the orcs in the north (in the movies, it's as if the Elves were already gone - in the books, they and the dwarves are the reason Rohan can even afford to ride out to help Gondor, by protecting Rohan's "flanks"). Compression isn't the bad thing about the movies - honestly, they managed to cram most of the important stuff in. The main removals were around merging or writing out some characters, which is reasonable (e.g. Erkenbrand and Éomer turn into a composite character). I'd say the biggest blunders are about 1) misunderstanding the scale, 2) misunderstanding the characters, 3) misunderstanding morale in general, 4) completely ignoring all logistics, 5) making _so many_ characters into complete idiots "to create drama and tension" or cheap comedy. Even just the Helm's Deep arc shows so many of these things. Aragorn arguing with Theodén _in front of the troops_ (and idiotically). Gimli and Legolas' beautiful "Legolas didn't even feel bad about losing in their match, that's how happy he was to see Gimli still alive after the battle" turned into Legolas being a petty ass ("for comedy, ha ha"). Éomer's charge down a hill (that horses would have trouble going down without their riders at a careful pace)... straight into very deep, very massed heavy infantry (in plate!) in good order (as if horses were bulldozers). The ludicrous ladders the orcs use to scale the wall, and the ridiculous inability of the defenders to defend against them (just think about what position the orc is in at the top of the ladder, not to mention how easy it is to kill them just by throwing rocks down on the ladder). How do they even lift those ladders, _with orcs on them_ and how do they even hold together under the weight? How silly is the treatment of the archers, who are told to draw their bows... and hold... and hold (warbows are _hard_ to draw! You aim, draw and release as quickly as possible). And they even treat that poor old man as if it was _his_ fault! "This is a good sword." Seriously? Sure, you don't want to use sharp swords in a film (well, when they're being _used_ - it wouldn't hurt in a scene like this), that's understandable... but it's chipped like crazy, and you call that a good sword? Not to mention that this is Erkenbrand's (Lord of the Westfold!) son - he would already be one of the best trained people out there, despite being relatively young, and he would be well equipped. And oh boy, the Wargrider ambush... I could go on for a long time :D Jackson did great in the adaptation overall. But very few of his "improvements" were halfway decent (e.g. I understand he wanted more focus on the female characters, scarce as they are). Of course, you can really see this shine in the Hobbit trilogy, where he "improved" much more than in LotR :D One of the big problems in Hollywood is just how much everyone seems to think they know better.

[@Movie_Games]

The stupid green army ruined the movie for me because he could've just took them to Mordor instead and made the place a ghost town. Or made a deal with them to do two battles before letting them go free. Unless there's a good reason why he couldn't.

[@MagnusOrkzyd]

There was a reason. I don’t remember the specifics, but the idea was that the army of the dead would fall under Sauron’s influence like the Nazgûl did if they entered Mordor. I think it was in the books, but I am not 100% sure.

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

​@@MagnusOrkzyd I don't really think that line was in the book. I have also not read them for a long time, but I clearly remember that the undead were released at Pelargir, not at the Pelennor fields. Aragorn arrives with regular men from the coastal regions of Gondor in the Corsair ships. There would be no place for such line.

[@wallywallace2184]

I also didn't really like the armies of the dead being present at the battle of pelenor fields. The defeat of the corsairs was fulfillment of their oath. Taking the ships and recruiting their own mini army in the name of the king made their oath complete. It felt like a betrayal of the king to have him force these restless souls to keep fighting beyond their debt owed and then the little fakeout of the king still deeming their oath unfulfilled felt out of character for aragorn, even if it was a fakeout.

[@lukew6725]

Not to mention the fact that if Aragorn was able to keep them around for that battle why couldn't he just keep them around until Sauron was defeated? And Gimli lampshading this made it even worse!

[@desmondd1984]

It doesn't even make sense, why are "restless souls" an invincible green army in the first place? How did they gain this power? Them existing as ghosts and being scary, I can accept. But not that.

[@wallywallace2184]

@@desmondd1984 They were a living army a long time ago that swore an oath to fight alongside the king of Gondor, and when they didn't show up to the battle, they were cursed as oath breakers to never be at rest even after they die until their oath is fulfilled. During the war of the ring, they're ghosts who haven't been able to pass on until they assist Aragorn and fullfil their oath. Then their spirit can pass on to the afterlife and they can be at peace. It's less of an invincible green army with powers and more of an army of ghosts who are bound to middle earth for breaking their oath to the king, only able to rest and be free once they fullfil their oath. If that makes any sense.

[@desmondd1984]

@wallywallace2184 what you wrote makes perfect sense in the context of the books and what Tolkien wrote. My problem is the "invincible green army" part.

[@wallywallace2184]

@@desmondd1984 Babe, they're dead. They're dead and incorporeal. They're invincible because they are not physically present, there's nothing tangible there. You can't hurt what you can't touch, and you can't touch a ghost. The green part is mainly just the fact that for some reason we as a society have decided ghosts are either green or blue or some combination of the two. And I'm pretty sure they can hurt living creatures because. How else could they fulfill their oath? If not by fighting to free those who are still alive? But they themselves still lack the flesh and physical form required to be slain and thus stopped.

[@plebisMaximus]

These movies are my absolute favourite films of all time and I firmly believe they're overall on par with the books, but if I could make just one change, it would be adding in the banner of Elessar. It was such a powerful scene from the books and the moment where Aragorn truly became king. The utter fear in the guards of Minas Tirith melted away, running down the hill into the orc ranks and shattering their offense. It's too bad portraying psychological warfare is as difficult as it is, it was *the* major theme of this battle.

[@master_samwise]

I could probably gush for hours about how incredible that moment is. It's one of the most beautiful moments of the book, and the book has a TON of incredible moments.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

And this banner was made by Arwen herself, so we could have scenes of Arwen doing something useful and hopeful in the second and third movies instead of the scenes of doubt and despair that were created for some reason.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

In the Book, you could feel by the words alone that once that Banner unfolded into the wind, the forces of Sauron lost all hope and crumbled. It was a beautiful scene in the book and you could feel the impact it had.

[@TheJmlew11]

I’d push back on saying that the films are on par with the books. That said I totally agree with your take.

[@criert135]

@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ”for some reason” literally everything in the films was carefully considered and has important thematic purpose.

[@funkydozer]

Nobody died needlessly. They died buying time for their king to arrive with reinforcements, even though they did not know this. Holding out for as long as possible is always a worthy death. There are limits as to what can be portrayed on screen, and I think Jackson showed the battle between hope and hopelessness as well as possible.

[@itmanjames]

Strong agree. Imagine Aragorn rolling up to a city of partying Orks and only dead humans because nobody fought back. Did the deus-ex-ghostica feel a bit weak, yes, definitely. But to say the defenders died for nothing is a bigger exaggeration.

[@brycepalmer8100]

strong agree, was also gonna say this. they were holding out as best they could to protect their families. their people. how could they know aragorn would return. aragorn was sent on a path that might turn the tide with great risk. and their was an honor restored by doing so to the legacy of men, those who betrayed long ago. it was meant to be perceived their battle was hopeless without aragorn's trump card. it was neccessary. neccessary for everyone to do what they did. dying for their people.

[@oO0Xenos0Oo]

​@@itmanjames I still wish they had made up some restrictions for the ghosts, instead of making them completly overpowered. Something like each ghost soldier has to take down one enemy with him, in order to fullfill his oath. It would have made a great scene, when every ghost got released instantly while killing an enemy. In that way the ghosts would be able to swing the battle and drive fear into the remaining armies of sauron, without just instakilling everything that was left.

[@derpnerpwerp]

​@brycepalmer8100 I mean I remember watching this as a kid and thinking the ghost army kinda cheapened the whole thing..not in so many words.. as a kid it just kinda felt like.. wow, they could have just wiped everyone out all along? Why did Aragorn even need to show up on the boat, the ghosts can walk through walls, they don't require transport and they kill everything they touch. Honestly Aragorn and the gang should have brought lawn chairs and martinis instead of weapons. Also the whole concept of dying an oathbreaker only to be redeemed by touching orcs to death with no risk to oneself is kinda lame

[@funkydozer]

@user-gm6gc6ph7p Great, now write that up as a screenplay, work through the logistics of explaining all that backstory into a 3 hour movie without making it boring for a wide age group audience, and make a better reboot doing it justice as you see fit.

[@anarionelendili8961]

100% agreed. The Green Goo was my biggest gripe of the movie, but I still rank Pelennor Fields as my favorite battle in the LotR movies.

[@IG88AAA]

The charge of the Rohirrim makes up for it

[@rubensoeteman]

​@@IG88AAAclassic example of how something divine can cancel out something foul later.

[@pekkanumminen81]

Yes this green army is only, but major blunder of Jackson´s movie. My understanding is that whole idea of book and actions of Gandalf was that he is not to fight the battles for men, but helping leaders of men to get victory. So when people of Middle earth after several centuries remembered this wars against Sauron, they don´t remember that much was done by divine Gandalf (or undead armies), but it was war of free men vs. Sauron.

[@MadSpaceWolfDiary]

I always stated it looked like the mr bubbles scrubbers erasing the orc dirt lol. So unlike the books.

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Jackson did want to remove that part from what I've heard. Wish he did. Its so shite

[@thelatelatelatelateshow]

The problem with a plot device like the Army of the Dead in cinema is that it becomes a Chekhov’s Gun. If we introduce the army of the dead on screen and then don’t see them used in an epic fashion there’s no reason to have them in the narrative.

[@esperthebard]

I LOVE the Jackson LotR trilogy, but the ghost army is probably my least favorite thing in there, worse even than spiderman Legolas and "my axe is in his nervous system." For me, Fellowship is the best of the three by a lot.

[@fatherlucid4995]

Agreed that Fellowship is the best and also agreed that the ghosts cheapened to impact of the sacrifices made by Gondor and Rohan. Could’ve done without spiderlas too

[@dronmusicsound]

Fellowship is the best!

[@dronmusicsound]

Ghost army wasn’t good to me either

[@sjins1poolboy698]

Justice for Halbarad, Forlong, Hirluin, and Grimbold! Fantastic video, I have exactly the same feeling, the movie is amazing but that moment when just the witch king rides through the shattered gate and none but Gandalf stands to face him. Then the horns bring new hope and you're spirited away to see the morning's events from the Rohirim's perspective. The Fiefdoms coming to Gondor's aid, the sallying out lead by Imrahil, the mysterious Gothmog taking control after the witch-king's banishment. Just so much happens, and its so well written. I am glad Theoden gets his moment in both mediums though. Andy Serkis' reading of the battle is phenomenal and I often go back to just listen to these chapters.

[@master_samwise]

I keep hearing about Andy Serkis' reading. I need to check that out.

[@sjins1poolboy698]

@@master_samwise it is absolute gold! 60+ hours of Tolkein read by one of the best audiobook narrators I've ever heard.

[@jakobschoning7355]

Don't you forget Derufin and Duilin!

[@Cody-5501]

We heard of the horns in the hills ringing The swords shining in the south kingdom

[@TACTICALwaffle2]

I just got Andy’s reading of the Silmarillion it’s amazing

[@Camurgladius]

One additional element to this is, with the ride of the Grey Company and fetching the Gondorian forces that explicitly did *not* come to Minas Tirith at Denethor's call earlier in the text (completely reworked into Lethal Green CGI Wave), the incredibly valuable work he does at the Houses of Healing (left out of the theatrical cut), and in how he manages those too frightened to march into Mordor itself (not in the film at all), King Elessar is establishing his right to rule. This is missed (accidentally or on purpose) almost entirely by the movie adaption because they replace that part of the book's arc with a perhaps more "modern" idea of personal self-actualization--movie!Aragorn is more uncertain of his own right to rule at the start of the films and discovers that self-belief over time, and once he does, the movie (mostly) assumes so will everyone else. (Note the different points in the narrative where the reforging of the sword occurs.) The book, in my opinion, does much more work to establish this for everyone, sometimes subtle, sometimes quite overt ("Hands of a King are the Hands of a Healer" is maybe the most knock-you-over-the-head instance). Put another way, it's not an accident that the army that Aragorn brings in the book version is composed of: the Gondorian forces that were previously tied up by Corsairs/other hosts; his fellow remnants of Arnor; several elves; and our good dwarven representative. It had specific meaning, including how it ties into feudal-adjacent rulership. Also see how he interacts with Eomer King and the local captains (Imrahil, Faramir). Why *should* Aragorn be King? Because he protects, rallies, and heals his people, he knows what they can and cannot do, and he makes alliances with other peoples. The Dead were only to aid in freeing up the scattered Gondorian hosts by turning the very weapon of the enemy against them: as this video very correctly points out, fear and despair and confusion. We could say those elements make up "morale", and morale wins and loses battles from dawn of time to now, something both Professor Tolkien in our world, and Aragorn in his, understood. I do understand, though, that the movie format does not allow for the same manner of portrayal for how the Nazgul wage war. What we got in the film still largely works in conveying the threat of the Ringwraiths, and how e.g. Gandalf's presence counteracts it (they just get it across with more beams of light and swings of a staff). This is a complete digression but something I find amusing is that the Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban movie had similar difficulty with a similar concept at around a similar time in history--Dementors are creatures of evil kin to Nazgul, just emphasizing different aspects a little more as, I think, JK Rowling and JRR Tolkien overall emphasize different elements of humanity in their stories--the also-kin Myrddraal from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, a third favourite series of mine, provide yet another angle on the topic. Of course, I would say that the LotR movie Ringwraiths came much closer to matching the power of their original book than the movie!Dementors, which I found mostly absurd on first watch, not nearly as good as what was in the book. Hopefully the upcoming series can do more justice to Rowling's text in that and other ways, since for all the flaws and complaints I have about Jackson's films, I also think they're a genuine miracle of film-making and perhaps the greatest adaption of all-time. Certainly the effort and craft that went into them can only ever be matched, never exceeded. Enough rambling on my part. Interesting video, glad to see someone observing this sort of thing.

[@ingold1470]

It's a little harder to wrap one's head around the idea of "right to rule" if you're a modern who has been trained by public school to implicitly view all authority, no matter how petty, as equally legitimate, and where your government resembles a machine controlled by "levers of power".

[@johnholden-white2045]

Indeed. Different times. I like the proofs of a right to kingship- a just ruler who protects and champions (dare I say shepherds?) his people. (Saying that, I am not a monarchist!) The swearing and holding to oaths was no small matter in our own past and the redemption of the disgraced dead is also in the true king’s gift. He is something of a messianic figure. Certainly in medieval England the healing hands of the king (being God’s representative) were thought by many to have such miraculous power. There are accounts of afflicted subjects being presented to the pious Catholic king Charles 1st (beyond the medieval era) to be touched by his hand that they might be healed. I would have loved to see Aragorn reunited with the remnant of the Dunedain and the point about using the weapon of the enemy against him is well made… good stuff.

[@mid110300]

Impressive insights into a scene from a great movie. It's easy to overlook shortfalls from an overall outstanding work.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

Not that easy. It took me a long time to warm to the films. Far fewer heroes from the books had a chance to “show their quality“ in the films.

[@drzerogi]

Frankly, the green ghosts ruined the entire scene for me.

[@phenel]

While I can sympathise with your feelings toward the films, these adaptations are (mostly) faithful representations of the books. There are many modern adaptations of so many amazing pieces of work being trashed into the ground. They would be amazing if they had even half of the passion put into these 3 movies. I don't mean to say "Because these things are worse, your opinion is wrong." I just wish the fans of the books were more thankful for having something that was actually so good. You only need one example for my point (though there are many). The Wheel of Time is some of the worst TV I've ever watched, let alone how poorly it was adapted. Maybe just take a step back and be happy, it could have been so so so so so so so so much worse.

[@drzerogi]

@@phenel Yeah, I hear you. The moment is just a huge blemish in an otherwaise fantastic trilogy.

[@Frankje01]

@@drzerogi audiobook that uses the music and sound effects of the movies are the way to go for me

[@sheezy2526]

One thing about Gandalf is there are hints all across the book how powerful he is. When he comes back as Gandalf the white and met Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and they attack him and fail, he goes "Get up, my dear Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.". According to Silmarillion even dragons feared Dwarfs because of the mightily blows of their battle axes and fire proof armour and Aragorn had Anduril made from the shards of the Narsil, which cut off Sauron's finger, and Legolas is as good a fighter as Gimli. He also pursued the Balrog for 8 days which implies the Balrog feared him and fled, and only fought when it got trapped on a mountain peak and had no other choice. At one point he also tells he is the most dangerous being in Middle Earth save for the Dark Lord Sauron himself. Yet in the movies he turns into a lil bich in front of the Witch king, and in The Hobbit he is portrayed weaker than Galadriel.

[@tubetorpedo]

Gandalf was Maia, so similar being as Sauron was. But after his creation he had learned pity and patience and was more of a scholarly type, while Sauron was one of the most powerful of Mair and had early on will to dominate other beings and thus aimed and trained for power and domination. Relatively early on Sauron became underling of Melkor who was the actual big bad of the story which happened before LotR (in Silmarillion). So Gandalf was VERY powerful, it was just bit different kind of power what Sauron was. Also if I remember correctly Gandalf and other Istari (wizards) who were sent to Middle-earth were given instructions not to directly confront Sauron, their role was to study and oppose him but do it by being guide and advisor of people of Middle-earth, not try to personally destroy Sauron. Jackson's movies in general are great adaptations, but they also made quite a few plunders especially for those who are familiar with the books who have something to compare it with. The army of dead being one of the most obvious scenes, but also various character "adjustments". E.g. I have talked with and read many comments from people who only watched movies whom Sam was the bestests of Hobbits while Frodo was just moaning and complaining. Because movies failed to properly portray problems and effects Ring had to it's bearer which mostly happened mentally (also how long Frodo already had had the Ring). In movies Sam is much more prominent due physical acts he did (which are easier to portray on film), when in books it's much more balanced co-operation because Frodo at the same time did mental lifting battling against Sauron's will which got so much worse closer to Mordor they got. But clearly for many movies made it seem way more unbalanced.

[@virtuaguyverify]

I agree, I wanted to see him do wizardly things, because, well... he's a wizard. I didn't feel it from the movies

[@smgdfcmfah]

Agreed, and that part of the book is one of my favorites. The Rohirrim charge starts well but Gandalf is afraid it will be offset or stopped by the Witch King who turns from the city to meet them. Gandalf is about to go f him up when Pippin arrives and tells him Denethor is about to kill himself and Faramir. It's one of those turning points where Gandalf is forced to make a decision and he even says something like either choice will have terrible consequences (by leaving the Witch King he dooms Theoden - but had he gone and killed the Witch King then Faramir would have died. Such a great piece of foreshadowing and also a lesson in why a single character can't do everything by himself regardless of his power. Instead they had soften Gandalf because it was SO important to have Mary Sue kill the Witch King after making her little "girls rule the world" line. Sigh.

[@bigguy130]

@@virtuaguyverify In the 1978 animated lord of the rings movie, Saruman was able to show off his power as a wizard when he sent "Fires from Isengard" which looked sort of like fiery comets coming from Saruman's tower to breach the castle walls.

[@MajorMinor1970]

Shame Jackson left out Prince Imrahil, he was so important to the battle for Gondor. I always thought the Army of the Dead finishing off everything in under a minute wasn't fitting for the scene, not just because it didn't happen in the book but it lessened the impact of the return of the King which is what it was all about.

[@livsnjutarennr2649]

Always hated how bad the average Gondorian soldier performed in the battle of Pelennor Fields. Thats why I prefer the two towers. I know Peter has said in an interview that he didnt think they communicated the affect of the nazguls too well, so showing the skills of the gondorian soldier without the affect would change a lot in my opinion. For example, imagine the gondorian soldier kicking ass when defending Osgiliath, but flee once the nazgul appears. Nevertheless, it should have been communicated in a better way as pointed out in this video. Thanks Master Samwise! Good video

[@russellmoore6675]

Agreed. There are a few creative changes that were made-such as with the army of the dead that weren’t as good as they could have been. I definitely had that exact feeling as I was watching them completely destroy Sauron’s army on their own. There were others although like you, I’m still amazed today at how good the whole trilogy was.

[@master_samwise]

This trilogy holds up incredibly well, and I'm so happy with all the things it did right, such as, as I show but don't explicitly note in the video, Theoden's horse charging ahead of all the other Rohirrim. That is straight out of the books, and the fact that it's included in the short, overhead shot demonstrates that clearly Jackson and company knew their source material... which in turn makes it even more frustrating that the Army of the Dead was used in a manner so contrary to the book.

[@tubetorpedo]

​@@master_samwise Maybe their main concern was to do it fast, so green airbrush (of victory) it was. It was done in a few seconds so story could advance. Personally I would almost hoped camera just panning up and then some character telling/having a short conversation of how they did the cleanup afterwards and how it ended.

[@LadySilmarien]

The spiritual elements of this battle need to be illuminated. You did an excellent job in bringing them forward.

[@MarcAlcatraz]

clearly its because Peter Jackson couldn't handle the extreme chadliness of the Prince of Dol Amroth so he had to cut everything else, like the army of his region of Gondor.

[@PhilosophicallyAmerican]

Dying heroically by holding the line long enough for reinforcements is a regular thing in war. I would not say the Army of the Dead cheapened their sacrifice.

[@bryanwigmore7224]

I realised how much of a pedant I am when I almost melted into my cinema seat in horror at the exchange between Eowyn and the Witch King. I have no idea what business they thought they had changing that perfect dialogue, but I have just two words for them: "Thou fool."

[@thadmeboy1129]

Personally my biggest problem is it felt more like a wave than a battle. I like feeling the impact and the clash of a charge rather than just looking at a tide of green rolling over the enemy.

[@Zoltoks]

Agreed it felt weightless and not in a good ghostly way. It would've been way cooler to have them come in and possess the orcs to kill one another. Not Canon with the books, but would be way more satisfying then insta kill green wave.

[@Vyable__]

@@Zoltoksno the wave of them was perfect. Felt exactly how a ghost army riding into battle would feel. Ngl having them possess orcs would be worse imo bro, also not Tolkien at all. His ghosts here are undead men not the exorcist kind

[@tubetorpedo]

I call it as green airbrush (of deletion).

[@Siege513]

THANK YOU! I've always felt like I was the only one with this problem. Literally my biggest issue with the entire trilogy. What was the point of Rohan showing up and dying? Aragorn just showing up with his ~I WIN~ button cheapens everything. What if Rohan showed up an hour later? "We rode here in all haste in answer to the beacons!" "Hey... thanks for coming, but it's fine, we got it. You guys can... go home I guess."

[@OscarDirlwood]

They'd have more men to march on the Black Gates with; as opposed to the remnants they ended up with

[@denimchicken8080]

This part of the movie turned me off so much that Fellowship is my favorite and ROTK is my least favorite of the three

[@ihavegymnastics]

@@denimchicken8080Agreed.

[@LuaanTi]

@@IncognitoJohnDoe Minas Tirith is not Gondor. It's a fortress that has grown to also be a city, mostly after the actual capital, Osgiliath, was lost. It's one of the things Hollywood really "excels" at - completely ruining any sense of scale. Rohan is a single village of Edoras, mostly ("All of Rohan's people are here!" in Helm's Deep). Minas Tirith is Gondor. Armies teleport at will across hundreds and thousands of miles. It's especially painful in contrast with how incredibly meticulous Tolkien was to make sure all the timelines align properly, with realistic travel times, logistics, scouting, defence in depth, and above all, the focus on morale. Minas Tirith will never fall as long as its men man its walls, remember? In the book, not a single enemy passed through the gate, despite it being smashed - and Gandalf turned the Witch King away (rather than being defeated by the Witch King as in the movie, absurdly). The ebbs of morale on both side define all the battles, not magic and technology - for all the things the movies do right (they are wonderful movies, stretching what Hollywood was capable at the time, and will unlikely be capable of doing again for a long time), it's ridiculous to compare them to the books. They stand very well on their own, and are some of the best that Hollywood has produced... but they capture very little of the _themes_ of the books, and how the people and the world work. Indeed, in the books, it's never clear if the Dead ever kill a single person, or can interact with the world of the living at all - apart from their ability to project dread on everyone nearby. They shatter the enemy by harming their morale, not their bodies. Aragorn actually has an army with him as he defeats the Corsairs, and then sails on _with an army_ (including rescued prisoners from the Corsair ships) to Minas Tirith. The Corsairs were never even meant to reach Minas Tirith - they were there to prevent Gondor's armies from reaching Minas Tirith, tying them down in the bulk of Gondor. Heck, the beacons didn't even lead to Rohan in the book - they were a signal to _Gondor's_ armies in the South, across the mountains, not Rohan's (_that_ signal was a delivery of a symbolic red arrow by a messenger on horse - needless to say, Theodén started mustering his troops _long_ before that messenger was even sent, much less arrived). In fact, the Pelenor Fields were completely overrun long before Rohan arrived - and that was with Faramir executing flawless delaying tactics the whole way from Osgiliath _almost_ to Minas Tirith (the rout happened, but started a few hundred meters from the gate). Osgiliath is some twenty miles from Minas Tirith - even without Faramir's harassment, it would take _at least_ two days for Mordor's armies to cross that distance. It also wasn't the only defensive position on the Fields, needless to say. Yes, the fields were noted to be very fertile, with farms, cities and towns everywhere (in contrast to the movies, where we get... dry grass. Hollywood just doesn't seem to understand that agrarian societies are kind of built around their carefully managed land consisting mostly of farmland and forests). The Fields were evacuated long before the armies came; Minas Tirith likewise only had essential civilians left (just the same as with Helm's Deep, which, surprise surprise... didn't actually have civilians from Edoras there; it would be a very weird place for them to go, straight _towards_ Saruman's armies; of course, given armies teleport readily in the movies, there's no place they would be safe anyway :P). Don't get me wrong, some changes in the movies make some sense. It's annoying that Hollywood always put so much focus on visuals and immediate threats; other film-making traditions tend to take movies as a much more composite medium. We see "Rohan's people" huddling together in the caves behind Helm's Deep, and are supposed to treat that as if a defeat at Helm's Deep were the end of Rohan's people. Now look at the map. As a fairly typical agrarian society, you'd be looking at a population in the millions, not a few hundred! It makes it easier to understand the stakes on the human level ("defenceless people hiding in their last hope position"; the movies tend to forget and rediscover that the caves _do_ in fact have an exit)... but it completely ruins any sense of scale. This isn't a small village we're talking about; it's a large state on fertile land (though you wouldn't notice that in the films, of course - no farmlands, just lots of dry grass; sigh). I like the movies. I doubt anyone in Hollywood could do better. But they also show very nicely how limited Hollywood is, and how it keeps reiterating the same clichés over and over. Some of those are indeed limitations common to movies in general - you can spend a lot more time in a book than watching a movie, sure. Many are just something Hollywood learned their audiences "want" - thinking they are mostly simpletons who cannot understand there's more to a world than what you see on the screen right now. Or the ridiculous destruction of meaningful dialogue - being able to convey a lot with few words is a worthy goal, but clearly not something most Hollywood screenwriters are capable of. It's also ridiculous how Jackson just _had_ to shoehorn extra conflict everywhere, and heaps of incompetence on pretty much every character in the movies - though some particularly shine through, like Denethor, Faramir and oh my god Gimli, who just got turned into idiotic comic relief (something Hollywood still keeps doing over and over). He even managed to make Gandalf seem like an idiot - the character who is literally an embodiment of wisdom tries to convince Theodén that he should ride straight at Saruman's army, seriously? (incidentally, in the book, Gandalf advised they should join with Erkenbrand and try to hold the Ford of Isen, and Theodén agreed - they didn't know the Ford has fallen and Erkenbrand's army was dispersed - when they learned of that on the way, they turned to Helm's Deep instead). But yeah, that's also pretty much a tradition in Hollywood - it's hard writing competent, smart characters with reasonable conflicts and resolutions, and it seems that Hollywood has been isolated from the rest of the world for so long, they don't really see any problems with their depiction and style.

[@LuaanTi]

@@IncognitoJohnDoe "Also, if Rohan hadn't showed up... Half if not more of Gondor would've been wiped out." Forgot already?

[@jayt9608]

There were MANY issues where the movies deviated from the books: Helm's Deep, the March of the Ents, the character of Aragorn, the character of Elrond, the character of Denethor, the character of Faramir, the incarnation of Sauron, the confrontation of Saruman, Frodo and Sam in Osgiliath, and the lack of the time skip after the Party.

[@davidconlee2196]

It has always seemed like Jackson turned the script over to an 8 year old to finish up the battle for Minas Tirith. In the book it is an incredible moment when the Banner of the King is unfurled on the ship and then it is revealed that Gondormen are on the enemies ships and despair is turned to hope. But the 8 year old kid read that and thought, "It would be way cooler if an army of invincible ghosts gets off the ships and just kills all the orcs!" And jackson made it so.

[@ColoradoStreaming]

I think part of it was the studio. When LOTR was released the whole fantasy genre we know today did not exist and the studio tried to make it more of an action movie because they were not sure how the fantasy elements would sell.

[@gorgolyt]

Much more likely Jackson was worried about the eight year old kids in the audience (and adults of a similar attention span). The film was already long and the battle took up a lot of it. Condensing the source material is difficult task that requires compromise... something you seem to lack the maturity to understand.

[@wayus6309]

I never read the books. I remember watching this movie and thought I was the only one who found the green ghost things anti-climactic and ruined the entire series. It felt like Aragon just used a cheat code. Now I need to read the books.

[@orclover2353]

The army of the dead was my biggest gripe with all of the movies . The black ships coming up the river, and the city ringing the warning bells to retreat because the battle on the field was lost, only to have have a gondorian army jump out with their new king at the head is THE CLIMAX of the entire series, probably even more important than the ring itself, because who cares if the ring gets destroyed if all of the main characters are already dead. Remember that the writers absolutely adored Lord of the Rings, they understand the importance of this moment but just didn't have time to have the ghosts be a central plot of Aragorn's rise, have Aragorn use the ghosts to secure the southern fiefs, then have to explain the southern fiefs, their diverse culture, history...including the introduction of Pelargir, the history with the haradrim, and even the Numenoreans complex history with southern gondor. The ghosts would then do very little, scared some guys off of ships to save a bunch of other guys who weren't strong enough to fight off dirty pirates but are now strong enough to turn the tide of the largest battle in middle earth in 1000 years. As amazing as the writing and imagery is during that moment it is certainly a logic hole and tolkien falls into a number of these. Tolkien is a weak action writer, his battles take fewer pages than hobbits walking through the shire, they don't really make sense and are not particularly detailed. It almost feels like he was ashamed to have battles in the first place because the story was so much relationship and choice centered and not violence centered.

[@superjlk_9538]

I think they easily could have remedied this with the Nazgul being able to repel some of the ghosts and with a smaller number. It’s simply too big of an army to not look like a duex ex machina

[@n.trstenjak2499]

Not a few guys. Remember, the entire south of Gondor was besieged by the fleet of ships under the corsairs. Pelargir completely aside, when the regions send reinforced to Minas Tirith before the battle, it’s mentioned that thousands of men should’ve come from Lossarnach, not a couple hundred. This refers to the wars and sieges being waged all across Gondor. In the South, this was centered around Pelargir. This wasn’t a small skirmish. Pelargir was the greatest port of Gondor and wouldn’t have been besieged by a couple dirty pirates in small boats. The Corsairs fleet was substantial and defeating them freed up thousands of men.

[@heofnorenown]

I could completely destroy your comment, but I won’t, because it’s clear you either haven’t read the books or you did it a long time ago, and so you don’t know better, although if you’re going to make such claims as “Tolkien is a weak action writer” you really aught to know what you’re talking about. I will however make one suggestion about where you go wrong. You seem to forget that Gondor and her enemies are kingdoms, with armies and fleets, the Corsair fleet at Pelargir numbers something like 50 large ships and can carry thousands of men and it was not the only Corsair fleet.

[@n.trstenjak2499]

@@heofnorenown I can’t tell you how happy your comment made me.

[@Hello_there_obi]

You need to think a little harder about the constraints of the film…

[@jasonandkathleenbarker6306]

“The Return of the King” meant a lot in the novels. Aragorn knew it was his destiny and he was ready to step up at the right time. From the time he used the palantir to taunt Sauron, to his choice (NOT Elrond’s advice like in the movie) to walk the paths of the dead Aragorn was becoming the King. In the movies it’s like “oh, I see Aragorn’s wearing a crown and kissing liv Tyler, I guess he’s the king”

[@Vyable__]

Dude what? All throughout the films we see Aragorn’s actions, decisions, and leadership mirror that of a true king, I got the feeling throughout all the movies and especially the last one of him slowly taking up the mantle as king. Especially when riding with the ghost army at his back fighting for the true king and to the final battle at the black gate with his armour that now resembles that of what a king would wear leading the race of men, now united into a final assault, not to mention his kingly speech before the battle. The movies did a great job of this.

[@justawful8404]

to be fair Tolkien himself didnt like that title for the book

[@the_mackshack]

Wow! Somewhere in the back of my mind I’ve always had the thought about the ghost army being a lazy solution to it all, and it cheapens the sacrifice of everyone else, but I’ve never heard anyone else discuss it. You articulated it perfectly, and cool to realize how well the book handled it and how the themes of fear and hope were central to the story Tolkien was trying to convey. Great insights!

[@Gumpmachine1]

I thought the same, it’s like trying really hard at a video game then your friends just use cheat codes to help you complete it. Why even try in the first place

[@lukesayers5850]

My dude? Said it best! Gilthoniel ah Elbereth! Or whatever.

[@factbeaglesarebest]

They should have left this damned aspect of the books as it was in the books. The dead folk caused dread in the coursairs that simple. The movie takes away from the charge of the Rohirrim…

[@Cody-5501]

Quick note the necromancer was Sauron not the witch king during the quest for erebor the white council drove him out and he fled to Mordor and reestablished himself

[@Lonadar1340]

Read what he has on the screen when he says that; the spoken version is ambiguous, but he indeed meant the Witch-King, who is a servant of the Necromancer aka Sauron. As in, the chief servant of the Necromancer would also likely have some necromancer powers to do what he described in the video.

[@mousermind]

So... do the ghosts have the ability to kill, or not, in the book? Because my thought, with the movie at least, is why Aragorn dismissed them so damn early. There were other battles, and as long as they stayed away from Sauron, the chance they'd be corrupted would be minimal.

[@benmoore8809]

RotK is already 4 hours long. Adapting this aspect of the battle faithfully would've added even more complexity, more characters, and ultimately more runtime. And doing it either way doesn't really change how the overall plot advances. Frodo and Sam still have to get to Mount Doom and whether it's the Army of the Dead or the Grey Company that arrive to save Minas Tirith doesn't make much difference in that regard but one option gets us back to the ultimate objective more expediently in an already very long story. I understand and accept why PJ did it this way. Though I agree, it would have been nice to see it played out more accurately. Maybe there would've been time for it if less time was spent on Legolas-jerking.

[@gorgolyt]

Agreed. There was not a single mention in this video that the running time is a vital consideration. That makes it quite a naive analysis, to be honest.

[@TheInfectous]

@@gorgolyt running time and realistic portrayal. it's easy to say, find a way to show the mystical aspects of a story, it's a completely different thing to do it. I love the books but they're not adaptable in the way they're written, they're meant to be a mythology and are written in the style of a legend, if jackson made them as they are written the series would've ended with a 5/10 on imdb on fellowship not to mention it'd be painful to watch. In book form, your mind can wave away the clunky unrealistic dialogue and interactions. You can visualize mystics and stretch time to fit whatever is happening. Your mind doesn't apply realistic convention of interaction between peoples in the same way as with film. In film, you cannot enter the uncanny valley, in book, it doesn't exist.

[@Kisarez]

I see your point about length. But having ghosts or soldiers makes a difference. The ghost army has bullshit properties. From the film's point of view, one ghost could beat the entire Mordor army. They can't be hurt, yet can kill. It would take that one ghost a lot of effort, sure. But the physics allow for it. Let alone a swarming army. It removes all the tension from the battlefield. All the others died needlessly. You can claim they didn't know Aragorn would arrive. Sure. But that doesn't matter. Then the deaths are defined by bad luck. And don't get me started on the Witch King being able to eviscerate the ghosts. There is nothing in the film that sets that up. The LOTR is amazing. But the movies did fuck up with the ghost army.

[@vonborgah]

yeah not to mention deadlines, funding, localization, legal issues. people dont understand movie industry at all

[@Thiccness_Is_Delicious]

​@gorgolyt what makes it naive is the fact the movies are some of the best and most watched cinema TO EVER EXIST!!! Yes the books are drop dead amazing but the movies are in the same level if not surpassing the base media being the books as everyone's seen the movies you wouldve been hard pressed to find anyone who hadn't a decade or so ago whereas the books is a different story.

[@ThisIsWideAngle]

This is the video I´ve been waiting for since the film came out. Two things I wanted to add: One aspect the tide turns is the death of the witch-king which happens in the book due to once again a Hobbit, who `accidentally´ found a sword months before which happens to be the only blade which can defeat the witch-king. And as much as it is a random and plotty point in the story, it also is once again telling the core spirit of Lord of the Rings: It doesn´t matter how small and insignificant you might think you are, you can still be the factor which turns everything around. Because at the time the army of mordor was an unbeatable force, not only because of the size and power, but also because of the powerful spell of the witch-king. Only after his defeat, the army fell apart and became destructable. So once again it came back to chance and courage and acting out of love, which are aspects Sauron doesn´t understand and never calculated for. Also the sight of the army in front of the city is described much more graphically like a hellscape. everything is set on fire so the sky is darkened with black smoke and ashes are in the air. It is literally the last battle before middleearth falls into darkness. In the film it is an open field and for sure quite a lot of orks and stuff, but even compared with the army marching towards helms deep, this is directed and designed very plainly. Even back when i saw it in cinema I thought that it looks like a computer game. And while the battle of Helm´s Deep feels like a threat to the people of Rohan, Minas Tirith also feels a bit empty and stale. You hardly sympathize with them. There is a lot going for it and it still kinda works because of clever dramatization and epic moments, but in the end it never really works for me. ESPECIALLY because of the deus ex machina with the stupid green ghosts.

[@rhosia]

Sometimes life is really strange! I wrote the same thing about the Dead Army in my review at Kinopoisk (it’s Russian IMDB). It was about a month ago. Today I found this video by recommendations on KZbin. It’s great to find like-minded people all over the world! I want to add a few thoughts. As I remember in the book (I’ve read it long time ago) the Dead Army helped Aragorn and his people to defeat the corsairs only. Aragorn released their spirits right after that and there were no ghosts on Pelennor fields. I wish Peter Jackson added some more detailed scenes in the ports of Gondor and cut off the ghosts out the battle of Pelennor fields. You are very right, their appearance contributes a huge depreciation of human feats. Moreover it brings inappropriate comedy to the scene (when they kill the elephant for example). Honestly, I think that it’s the worst decision about the script in the whole trilogy. Anyway I love the film. My favourite scene is Faramir’s try to fight off Osgiliath. This is such a beauty! The dramaturgy, the Pippin’s song and especially some shots. The one is where Gandalf sits alone in the backyard while the sun is setting. There is no Maya, no wizard, there is just a human that dreams to find hope. Thank you for your video, it’s so great!

[@sommmeguy]

I couldn't agree more. The glowing greenies were in bad taste and didn't belong in the Return of the King. In an interview, Tolkien once said that the most important role of the villain was to test the heroes bravery and demonstrate their valor. It was more a test of their will and character than ability and power. As such, the final battle was simply a way to show the reader how honorable the good guys were. The key was how they did not despair - kept the faith. The army of the dead was Tolkien's hand wave to end the battle (notice that Tolkien didn't usually state any numbers or measures - the armies were not "realistic"). Regardless, to Tolkien the battle had already achieved its purpose - the men of the West had kept the faith and shown courage. As an interesting background, Tolkien studied many Nordic sagas and legends. In Ragnarok, everybody dies - even the gods. You wonder how people survived with such a bleak vision of the end times. But what was important to the Norse, was that they fought to the end - not a victory, but a good death. In LOTR, the Rohirrim best embody that world view.

[@lessoriginal]

While I agree with much of what you're saying, it's kind of silly to feel that reinforcements arriving to deal the final blows in any way cheapens the sacrifices of the others. Even if those reinforcements are green goo.

[@dimcha2669]

it's not about reinforcements arriving, it's about what those reinforcements consist of the book had its resolution with the arrival of Aragorn and the reinforcements he brought with him but those reinforcements still had to fight and the work done earlier by minas tirith and rohan mattered in the outcome of the combined effort during the final clash if your reinforcements are an unbeatable, insta-kill ghost army that removes all tension from the situation and cheapens the previously applied effort, that is the issue, not the fact they were reinforcements in itself

[@KaitainCPS]

It isn’t that. It’s that the strong impression is that the Army of the Dead could have defeated the host of Mordor on their own with no assistance from the soldiers of Gondor or the Rohirrim.

[@duh5359]

I have been watching your content for a short time now. I've really enjoyed hearing your opinions even if they aren't always aligned but this video earned a sub!

[@Theaeretical]

I love these movies so much. I always felt dissatisfied with some points, and now I see. This is so true, and if they had added these points, and if it were possible to make the movies as good as the books, it would be the PERFECT movie

[@Vyable__]

You’d have to get the 12 hour movie version

[@SamLoser2]

While just using the dead directly in the battle may have been necessary due to time, I have for awhile now thought that if they had to be used this way that the Witch-King should have had a scene vaporizing a huge chunk of them. Just so the audience isn't thinking at the Black Gate that the dead army could have won the whole war right then and there.

[@PeterJavi]

Captain of the dead: "So is this it, have we fulfilled our end of the bargain." Aragorn: "Actually no, could I borrow you guys for another hot minute, there's more orcs and we'd like to get rid of them." Captain: "Sigh fine, but no more favours after that. We're leaving after we wipe Mordor clean

[@EthanCruise]

I agree on the Witch King killing some lol But I mean a Dead Army just won me a war. I would be afraid to piss him off

[@purplelibraryguy8729]

The Witch King had a bad case of "dead" by that point.

[@Durzo1259]

@@PeterJavi That bugged the hell out of me too. Aragorn risked the whole war and existence of man kind instead of just saying "we're not quite done yet."

[@retsaMinnavoiG]

That's kind of the point of Aragorn. He will ALWAYS do what is right even if it's not the easy choice.

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

My final thoughts would actually be. Good I can die knowing we win and my family will live. I don't think someone fighting for the city they and their family lives in or someone thinking humanity may be wiped out soon, will be upset to get this help even as they themselves die.

[@ErikBramsen]

Another great video. I'd comment that it's the same problem with the Elven stormtroopers arriving to save Helm's Deep. The set-up of utter desperation was perfect, old men and children manning the walls against the Uruk Hai, when suddenly you have a company of elite elven supertroopers, goosestepping through the gate to save the day.

[@jmlaw8888]

I likewise hated the Witch King besting Gandalf. Gandalf the Grey would be more than they could handle. As the White he could body all nine without breaking a sweat. That scene among several others is why I consider RotK the weakest of the three extended. I think the theatrical cut is far better. Especially when dealing with the army of the dead. The toffee popcorn waterfall (skulls) was annoying and the "we fight: was cringey in the extreme. Theatrical was FAR superior.

[@2JoeStudios]

I am really happy that Jackson didn't do anything you suggested here. The idea that the Gondorians should charge out of the gate has straight up Game of Thrones season 8 vibes. Jackson did everything right (almost everything - no one is perfect). Your ideas would have made the movie considerably worse. They don't translate to screen in the way you think they do.

[@ChairmanKam]

5:55 i think back then Jackson wanted to focus on the OG variant and not the "Gandalf was actually an angel the whole time" version from the expanded legendarium.

[@templargfx]

The primary issue I had with the ghost army was not so much their timing in the movie, though your points are very valid. Its that they didnt really fight, they just glided over the battlefield and everyone fell before the tide. No effort or action on their part really. Imagine how much more awesome it would have been if they actually fought, some of them fell, but their numbers were enough to change the tide of the battle. I never saw them as being a tide of green mist that just kills people when reading the book

[@heartbreak25]

As a proud non-book reader, don't overthink what was depicted. Strategically speaking, the Army of the Dead was a cheat code that could've been unlocked from the very beginning by forging the blade and a pep talk to Aragorn. How many people needlessly died when the Fellowship simply could've left Rivendell after the great council meeting, escorted Aragorn to grab the Army of the Dead, and then used them to escort the hobbits to Mount Doom? In terms of the movie, you can clearly see their forces decimated when they're surrounded by the gates of Mordor. The film clearly shows that they have no hope of survival without Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom. As a first-time viewer, I actually felt a sense of hopelessness knowing the battle couldn't be won in combat or magic but only through the courage of Frodo. And when Frodo got to the edge and turned back, it was a roller coaster of emotion seeing Gollum unintentionally save the day for the remaining forces about to be destroyed outside the gates. Okay, that one battle may have felt cheap at the end. The ending more than made up for it when you look at the whole instead of the pieces.

[@landwand]

The Legolas on Oliphant stunt was my biggest gripe as it makes me, "Awww, c'mooonnnn!". That said, you make some excellent points and won't repeat all of them, the "theme" of the battles being morale vs military strategy and might was largely lost on the movies. By the way: I forgive the Witchking-Gandalf moment as it shows that the Nazgul have more power than just aerial harassment and screeching.

[@TheHorus471]

​@user-gm6gc6ph7pGet off your high-horses man! You might prefer the books, but spewing all this vile hate is not productive to anyone. Least of all for you. He done his best to work on a legendary book series, and while there are always criticsm to make, we also can see the good they made. Hope you find joy in your love without all this vile criticism.

[@lelandbjerg1187]

But if the Witch King needed to be dead to prevent him taking control of the ghosts, then wasn't the arrival of the rohirrim before Aragorn important?

[@Riddlerint1202]

I agree with you that this would have been more impactful but I don’t know how you would go about doing this in a film form. Like how do you show that the Nazgûl effect moral not physically attacking people. I also feel like the ghosts were put in to make the final battle more impactful because emotion wise I feel like that final battle gets the feelings across that you are suggesting. What do you think might have been a good way to solve these problems without making a 10 hour moving 😂?

[@jeffreykershner440]

Have the Nazgul fly along a battlement and every soldier on the wall behind them go into fetal position. Maybe have a scene where there's a team expertly loading lots of big stones into a catapult and taking out dozens of orks. Then the Nazgul fly overhead and they mess up, dropping the stones on soldiers/civilians on the next level down. Show horses fleeing and unseating their riders. Then comes Gandalf, shift the whole color palette to a lighter shade, have him smile and say "lift your heads and fight men of Gondor". When the ships come, change to an overhead shot with the three sides pushing into the mass of orcs. It could have maintained the epic nature, but shown the epic cost more.

[@plebisMaximus]

I suppose you could point the camera at the overcast skies and then dub in the bone-chilling Nazgul screech, followed by some shots of soldiers looking afraid. But even then, it wouldn't really do it justice. It wasn't a great change, but I think it was necessary.

[@master_samwise]

Honestly, the Battle of Pelennor fields in the book is not that long. Tolkien did not write long battle scenes. From the point that Aragorn shows up to the end of the battle is literally 2 pages. The movie spends a lot more time on the initial siege than the book does, so there definitely was fat that could have been trimmed. Like I said though, I still love the movie and doubt anyone would have done better than Jackson. They're just not quite perfect.

[@shadowman_390]

I always felt this way, thought the green ghosts were cheap and unfair.

[@scipioamericanus6711]

Eomer gets a raw deal in general in the films, being sidelined for most of Two Towers and having all of his most impactful scenes in RotK cut or drastically reduced in scope. They even removed his friendship/rivalry with Gimli, and in the extended edition he injects an uneeded line of generic sexism into Eowyn's plot. Of course, it could be worse, he could have been cut entirely like Prince Imrahil, but of all the characters who made it into the films, Eomer is to my mind the one who made it the least intact.

[@auzawandilaz6971]

sexism? where was that?

[@jamesr4951]

Lol everyone knows that "war is the province of men." 🤣

[@lukesayers5850]

I seriously appreciate your disdain for the films... Great though they are, I've read the books more than I've watched the films.

[@matthewmiller8297]

It's amazing how a movie series this shockingly epic, well made, and inspiring, STILL falls short of the source material. Tolkien was a master of his craft, indeed.

[@nickbonavita1379]

Gee lets see three books that take 54 hours to read made into three movies about 3 1/2 hours each. Yep why couldn't they squeeze those extra 40 hours of source material into the movies. Shame on you Peter Jackson.

[@denimchicken8080]

Should have been obvious to everyone involved that using the ghost army in this way was stupid. Even if the books did it in this way, it looks awful on a screen.

[@Joe-hu7lx]

Now that you say this, the Gondor army looked like a bunch of wimps without courage.

[@nyankers]

Honestly the change I hated the most was removing the scouring of the shire. I understand removing Tom Bombadil even though the barrow wights were my favorite part in the Fellowship of the Ring, but the scouring of the shire was literally the end of the hobbits' character arc, proving that they no longer had to rely on others to protect themselves.

[@SephTunes]

It also adds to Sam and frodos depression that they weren't fast enough and that you can still lose when you win. And fits the general theme of war taking from all aspects of life even in the background.

[@nathanhume4859]

Never read the source material, but it was obvious to me when I was 10 that the ghosties were Overpowered, and if they were that powerful why didn't they just pop along to Mordor as well.

[@f3arfu1_raider36]

I never really cared for the dead army but I think they helped them because they got cursed and finally they get released btw love your content LOTR and SW your underrated dude and I also read Children of Hurin, Beren, and Luthien, and I'm reading now the Fall of Gondolin. I truly think that the children of Hurin is incredible and probably the best story in the universe. Its not related to the video but I wanted to comment first.

[@plebisMaximus]

Feanor's story in the Silmarilion is my personal favourite, supremely cool. At least in the extended lore, I still think Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's overall best.

[@master_samwise]

Those are all on my list to read! I'm currently rereading the Silmarillion, then it'll be the Fall of Gondolin and the Fall of Numenor, then the others, along with the Letters of JRR Tolkien, which I somehow haven't read yet.

[@apossiblyhereticalalphaleg3595]

The Army of the Dead swore an oath to help the King of Gondor, but broke it, and were cursed to stay in Middle-earth for that. However their oath was cashed in by Aragorn, and the breaking of it was cured by them routing the Corsairs of Umbar at Pelargir. They should already be free to embrace the Gift of Illuvatar, that of death and of passing, after Aragorn boards the ships.

[@mokahtgs]

Help that arrives a bit too late but still turns the tide does not cheapen the losses...that's not how it felt at all. Also, the ebb and flow of fear and despair was very apparent throughout the battle scene.

[@Neutral_Tired]

04:35 I'd have done some setup in the early films, have someone comment on how unnaturally terrifying they are and maybe have a scene where the camera focuses on one's face (or, where the face would be) you use some camera trickery (e.g. darkening at the edges of the screen and/or a dolly zoom) combined with creepy sfx and whispers to make it clear there's something supernatural going on. And whenever they're in a scene have those creepy sfx play at varying volume depending on context and how many there are. Then, in this scene, have the sfx be the loudest and most intense they've ever been while also having the Nazgul screaming and flying above the battle, with the edges of the screen slightly darkened basically at all times (or, at least, any time they're focusing on the fear). Combined with the hopeless faces and panicked running of the men below it sould get the message across. Then have the sfx end and the darkness recede whenever Gandalf is present and, even once he leaves, they're reduced to the quiet background noise they were in most other scenes (still a symbol of hope, since that same background noise has been the biggest source of fear in the films up until that point and yet people are able to resist it now where they weren't earlier)

[@n.trstenjak2499]

Just to clarify, because I didn’t hear you say it explicitly, the ships were full of Gondorian soldiers from Pelargir (and I think Lossarnach also) that had been freed to come the defense of Minas Tirith since the Umbar forces had been driven off and they’d had their own sieges lifted. I don’t remember what the book says in terms of numbers, but I believe it was in the thousands.

[@FreakyGremlinDK]

The movie battle is Epic. The battle in the books is legendary! And there's SO much more to mention. Theoden confronting Suladân the Serpent lord, general and supreme commander of Harad's armies. charging with his Rohirrim straight into the huge cavalry army of Harad, cutting down his banner man and then killing Suladân himself. Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth and his company of Swan knights in silver armor and 700 men at arms, who a few days before the siege arrived at Minas Tirith to assist in its defence. They too had no fear of the Nazgûl and they walked the battlements and assisted Gandalf in encouraging the men who were lost in fear. After Éomer had discovered Eowyn and charged back into battle, the men who brought Eowyn's body to safety in Minas Tirith were met by Imrahil who were on his way with his army out to Pellenor fields. He puts his shiny gauntled close to Eowyn's lips and discovers she's still alive as he can see her breath on the shiny metal. He then tells them to bring her to the healers before he goes to find Èomer to fight alongside him. The orcs catapults in the movie are also very underwhelming and wouldn't be able to throw the stones over the walls. In the books they are described as these huge contraptions, so large they had to be pulled by the Mümakil. And last, even though they were not part of the battle itself. There is Ghân-buri-Ghân and his people. Wild men in the hills, basically cavemen with stone axes, stone spears and other primitive weapons and clothing. They lead the Rohirrim around a huge army of Orcs who were placed to the north to intercept the Rohirrim.

[@PDilling]

Thinking about how they have no clue whether Aragon will succeed or arrive, I don't really see their sacrifices being in vain. They held them off until the army of the dead arrived. Now it's true that had the army arrived earlier it would have prevented many deaths, but that is a choice for the writer to make, in this case they didn't arrive earlier, which means had every man just sat and waited for them they would have been slaughtered, and there would be nothing left to save. They held them of and bought time, even if unknowingly, Aragon to arrive. I agree that the book i probably a 100 times better, but I don't agree that the sacrifices of the Gondorian Guards and the Rohirrim were made pointless by army of the dead in the movie.

[@jakobschoning7355]

One of my absolute favourite scenes in the books is the arrival of the fiefdoms troops at Minas Tirith. I can understand why it was left out but it still makes me sad that we never got to see PJs/Wetas Version of Imrahil, Forlong and all the others. I also think it would have been great to break up the "Gondorian Monotony" - which makes their soldiers feel more like faceless goons than actual people - with the men of the fiefs. Edit: Also any passage that features the Knights of Dol Amroth is just absolutely badass... the counterattack to save the retreating Faramir, Their defense of the Gate as the first Ring is burning...

[@LikeTheBuffalo]

Someone touting the book version being greater than the screen version? I knew there was a reason I hit subscribe. Doesn't even have to be LOTR. If you got book > screen takes, I'm here for them.

[@GU5S]

100% agree. Love Jacksons trilogy but one of my least favourite things in them is the army of the dead. They just feel like a cheat code and cheapen the battle. And also not a fan of the gloeing green, a grey tone would have looked better and more ominous in my opinion. I get there were time constraints on an already long movie, and taking time to explain the Corsairs were the reason Gondors southern army was otherwise occupied woulld be difficult, especially adding in the dunedain too...but man it would make RotK so much better.

[@treytonstratton3532]

I disagree with this statement because as you pointed out, the armies of men were just supposed to resist Mordor, not beat them. The whole point is holding out until Aragorn arrives. Each stage of the fight has the reinforcements arrive and bring hope, only to have it taken away when Sauron has another answer. Every time it seems that the armies of men have a chance, it is taken away again, and the main goal is to survive as long as they can. It is a common trope used to the fullest extent. It does not lessen the sacrifice of the men that died because without them, everyone would be dead before Aragorn gets there with the tide of the dead that, in my eyes, signifies hope washing over the battlefield. An example from the movie just before it. You don't think that when the Riders of Rohan and Gandalf show up at The Battle for Helms Deep, that all the dying soldiers just look up and think, "well if only they showed up sooner, guess my life was wasted" no you don't, because they did their job. They held out until reinforcements arrived. As was the point of the battle. This is not to say that the battle is just as good in the movie as in the books, but I feel that it is near impossible to show an entire psychological tug of war in the time that was given.

[@epsteination2299]

This is true

[@richardgrego]

I remember seeing The Return of the King and talking with my friends after And telling them, the use of the undead green army was not what I thought would happen and wished that the Beacons of Gondor had called all of mankind together to stand themselves against Mordor. My friends, having read the books told me explicitly well that is how it happened in the books Not having read the books, I took their word for it, but it didn't make sense It took away from the point of the Beacons and it took away from the foreshadowing Gandolph did when he said to Elron, it is in Men we will trust. The explanation of the book in this video makes so much more sense Also in the movie, why stop at Gondor, use the green army to march into Mordor and kill everyone there

[@vonborgah]

coz sauron would have dispelled them, not to mention they did their dept they had no intrest to save humans, only to lift their own curse

[@Tonoborus]

agree fully. On the other hand, never underestimate the importance of 'mostly not dying for long enough'.

[@master_samwise]

True, that is a very important skill.

[@matisl1853]

I haven't ready the books, but I love the movies. Having your insight on what happens in the books is very interesting for me! It indeed would have been more meaningful for the remaining men who fought to have tolkiens version of the battle though... But to be honest, it never bothered me to see the dead army ravage through Minas Tirith. After this video though, it really I understand where you come from and I agree with you!

[@master_samwise]

As I said, I absolutely love the movies too. Having the Army of the Dead arrive to mop up wouldn't be so bad a choice if it was already clear that the men had won the day, and if there was an actual threat to the ghosts (like the Witch King) that the men had to remove first. Which, maybe Jackson thought of that, but it isn't shown clearly.

[@matisl1853]

@@master_samwise I totally agree

[@olorin3815]

I prefer the bool version but i get the choice in books just having hosts sweep through everything would be the worst option possible while in the movies its harder to depict peoples emotions and some more abstract elements while a giant tide of ghosts looks cool as fk visually

[@oskarfabian5200]

read the books, movies are idiotic in comparison.

[@The_0.5.0]

I believe the whole point was the army of the dead couldn't be summoned by anybody but the King of Men and them coming to Aragorns aid was proof that Aragorn had taken responsibility. We are lucky to have had such a faithful rendition as it is and it disgusts me hear another adult "hope" at all, let alone a film

[@tomhubbard22]

There's a scene earlier in the book, where Pippin and Bergil, the son of Beregond, are standing above the Gates of Minas Tirith, watching as reinforcements arrive from the southern coastlands of Gondor. Pippin is first impressed to see fifty men arrive from here, and a hundred twenty from there, and a full three hundred mounted knights from Dol Amroth, but Bergil's comment is "They send us but a tithe of their strength", because the folk along the southern coastlands fear the Corsairs, and don't dare leave their homelands undefended, even though the heaviest blow will fall here, on the City. This sets up the later emotional turnaround, as the defenders see the Fleet sailing up the river, and imagine that this means the Corsairs have prevailed, and the coastlands are lost. But then, against all expectations, the Tree and Stars flies from the flagship and they realize that the Corsairs are *defeated*, and that those ships are filled with the rest of the strength that had been left to defend the coastlands. "And the people sang in all the ways of the City." It's a glorious moment, and Jackson pissed it away.

[@CybershamanX]

(12:14) I totally forgot that Gandalf straight up smacked Denethor in the movie. Oh, man. Eek! Make it stop! The more I think about it, the harder it is to appreciate the films! LOL! (j/k. I still enjoy them and watch the extended trilogy every couple of years. 😉😎☮ Now, the Hobbit movies, on the other hand... Oof... LOL! 😉)

[@mitromney]

Though I'm a huge fan of the books, personally I'm fine with the undead for three reasons: - I was raised playing ROTK game, which was made by Jackson and his team and released even before the movie came out, so I considered it canon somewhat. In the game, you fight the undead as Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn and outside of the undead king, the regular undead soldiers are pretty easy to kill. So I always thought, watching the movie, that they weren't as powerful - if Rohan and Gondor didn't trim the Mordor forces so significantly, they wouldn't put a real dent on them all by themselves. In my eyes, they were always a cleanup crew, the final blow, and didn't really take away from the mentioned sacrifices. - Even though Jackson changed some of elements of the battle, like the emotional warfare, ghosts and such, he also added a lot of things that I think Tolkien's work lacked - in short, I would not say it's an inferior version. A little different, but overall, an equal for sure. Some of the core changes that I appreciate is Rohirim fighting Haradrim Mumaks. In the books, the primary battle between Rohan and Harad takes place all on horseback. It's cavalry charge vs cavalry charge. A little disappointing for the climax of Rohirrim's entrance for me. I mean we've seen that a million times. But gigantic elephants with towers on top vs a massive cavalry charge??? How much more impactful, dreadful and overall amazing choice was it? And then, there are other necessary changes like Eowyn talking to Theoden before he dies. One if my fav moments in the whole trilogy, and absent from the books completely! In short, even if ghost resolution could've been handled differently, the battle overall is a match for the book version for me. - The spectacle. I know CGI on the undead may seem a bit dated right now, but believe me when I say that 20 years ago, seeing thousands of properly rendered undead soldiers cleave through another army was just about one of the most epic fantasy moments of all time. The emotional battle in the books reads well. But movie is quite a different format. Visuals are a key element, and seeing one sea of armors crash agaimst another is something you see in every medival style movie ever. The reason battle for Minas Tirith is considered the greatest movie battle of all time by so many is, in part, also because of the amazing spectacle. The fact that we had airforce combat on dragons, and not just annoying screams from the clouds. The fact that we had massive elephants crushing horses and not just two armies of riders clashing as per usual. And yes, the fact that we had a massive skeleton army massacre another army is also a part of that amazing spectacle. It works. I'm not saying you are wrong but... It really does for me.

[@dutamulia]

Thank you, glad to know i'm not the only one hated these ridiculously OP army.

[@JasonOfArgo]

This and deleting the confrontation with Gandalf and the Witch King at the gate were downright egregious, but I think they were motivated primarily by wow factor and also wanting to really crunch down the runtime. I remember people were confused and exasperated by it being so long and having "too many endings" on release. Personally I would've been fine with a six hour epic, but that's just me...

[@kurtwpg]

This is the nicest thing I will say about Jackson: when he adapted LOTR almost exactly it was usually fantastic. But wherr he rewrote it was almost always awful.

[@michaelminervini1908]

Eomer holding his sword up in defiance of the fleet and then seeing the flag was such an awesome part of the book. Just imagine what it would have been like on the screen. Your reading of it STILL gave me goosebumps, bad voice acting be damned. lol Using the dead army the way they did ruined it. Hell who need Rohan afterall. They could have stayed home. And then Gimili telling Aragorn not to release them was so dishonorable; another character assasinated.

[@random22026]

2:37 Amon Lanc...ashire 3:50 to 3:57 Indeed, the Nazgul WERE a 'harrying air force'; which does not contradict Tolkien's description, 3:58 to 4:08 5:24 to 5:48 We SO agree! Gandalf being 'unseated by the Witch King' never sat well with us, either--the 'balance of power' here is simply WRONG! 8:54 Displaying Elendil's banner, however, would have given them (and the advantage of their unexpected arrival in corsair ships) away 9:48 A detail worth noting, all right! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 11:19 The Army of the Dead not inflicting any PHYSICAL wounds, is very important in Tolkien's narrative. We suppose Peter Jackson took the visceral route, because of the visual aspect of movie-making. As for the Army of the Dead being BS, as your title asserts? It is not! It is crucial to remember that these are the souls of men: OATHBREAKERS, come to fulfil their duty, as sworn to Isildur in an earlier time. It is a CONDITION necessary for their REDEMPTION (12:03) and release from their bonds--and a particularly moving part of the final film (at least, in the extended edition!), when their Captain assents to Aragorn's face: 'We fight'.

[@bigl9478]

Agreed! I always hated how the army of the dead was used in the film. What I find most baffling is how much non-book readers absolutely love them and even cheer when they swoop in and win the battle. I’ve watched, probably close to 100 different people react to the movies, and without fail they always love that part. I’ve never heard a single person complain (or even notice) that it weakens the battle scene. I can’t stand it!

[@criert135]

Why not just enjoy the fact that other people enjoy it. Not everyone has the same taste and many people like different things.

[@GunnerRDS]

@@criert135 Because they applaud the laziest, most nonsensical part of the entire trilogy?

[@criert135]

@@GunnerRDS That’s your subjective opinion. If they enjoy it then that alone shows there was merit in it being done that way.

[@GunnerRDS]

@@criert135 Ummm wrong, it's an adaptation of one of the finest literary works ever created. Its success is based on faithfulness to the original work, not on how many drooling imbeciles applaud the contrived action scenes

[@keesvanvore8635]

I can understand you don’t like it. But not everyone wants to spend hours analyzing every piece of content they watch. If you’re casually watching the trilogy it is an awesome moment. At least I think we can agree it was cinematically amazing.

[@hardlyworking1351]

I have to say i really disagree, i always found the book version of the Army of the Dead and the entire 'coastal' side quest of Aragorn kind of convoluted in the books. The army of the dead coming to Pelennor creates a far more straight forward story, one of many elements in my opinion they did better in the movies than in the books

[@Rmcaw]

Glad I came across this channel. You highlighted two of my biggest 4 gripes with the movie adaptation. The overpowering of the Witch King against Gandalf and the way they deal with the army of dead, To give some credit to the film writers, expressing fear and dread is actually harder in picture than in words on a page, so I think they decided to make it less abstract. My actual biggest gripe with the adaption is the depiction of Frodo. They wrote him into a totally limp wristed, passive character, made worse by Elijah Wood (who is a fine actor) who was too young to play Frodo. I would like someone to do a video on comparing the two Frodo's because it is considerable. Besides them I think Peter Jackson and the team did a amazing job. Keep up the good content!

[@gehtdichnixan8561]

Just on the Frodo-part: The age-thing was ok'ish "imo" - Elijah Wood was 18/19 back then, by regular standards, "just grown up". Hobbits are "grown-ups" at the age of 33 - which is "when" Frodo received the ring - that from "then on" froze his aging. "My" concern on the casting was that Hobbits should be rotund. Gandalf himself described Frodo as a "stout little fellow" in his letter to Barliman Butterbur; "i" always felt E.Wood to not fit that description overly well (infact, to me, Martin Freeman is the only true Baggins-impersonator. Eventhough P.Jackson's Hobbit-trilogy is a piece of garbage).

[@Rmcaw]

@@gehtdichnixan8561 True, however in the movie, they make no mention of Frodo's birthday or age, it's rightly simplified for the movie, so they didn't have the baggage of making him age appropriate. The bigger issue is also they make him more passive, the biggest examples is both on Weathertop and Moria, both times he just capitulates and basically hides or gives up. However in the book he shows bravery both times, trying to harness the power of the Valar on Amon Sul and then he attacks the Cave Troll and stabs it in the foot in Balin's chamber.

[@gehtdichnixan8561]

@@Rmcaw Can't agree more. That's not "actor issues" though but inherent to P.Jackson's vision. Both scenes depict him as a fullfledged douche - and even worse, the weathertop-scene makes Witchboy a geezer with major aiming issues (c'mon, it's not THAT hard to put a knife where one wants it on an immobile sack of flesh...).

[@ThoughtPolice1984]

The movies are really good but the books are absolute masterpieces. Unfair to compare the two.

[@sgttoasterface5282]

The idea of the witch king could have actually been a pretty cool scene cinematically and in a story sense. He tries to corrupt them to his side, but unlike before, they choose to side with their rightful king resulting in the witch king using his powers to destroy them all, freeing them from their fate. Would also explain why in the extended edition he was able to destroy a white wizard’s staff, but dies to a normal human female 30 minutes later, they could have explained it as he was weakened by the attack on the undead. The original book battle would have been best with the prince fighting with Aragorn, but if they had to add glowing green cgi monsters like they did they could have done it so much better than what we got lol

[@damonrobus-clarke533]

Think actually Gandalf was done a great disservice to be honest, almost depowered!

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

My brother in Christ he died because of the barrow dagger which immensely weakened him. And even in the book he starts doubting his "no man can kill me" stuff when eowyn takes off her helmet But hey just ignore what happened

[@sgttoasterface5282]

@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 the barrow dagger that was completely ignored in the movies and was just a regular dagger instead of being enchanted to kill the witch king? The movies are still the greatest trilogy ever, but they really failed transferring over certain parts from the books to the movies because they cut back on the fantasy aspects and it made the plot suffer at key moments, mostly in the third movie and battle of helms deep in the second movie

[@Fren33]

The best part is where Frodo is in Osgiliath, and the Witch king has already seen him with the Ring at Weathertop so knows his face, and yet again, sees Frodo holding the ring out to him on the archway. And the Witchking decides to move his winged beast in slow mo to snatch up Frodo who is holding out the very thing that Sauron is seeking with all his will, ONLY to be thwarted by a single arrow and then somehow, the armies of Sauron then ignore this small fact and keep attacking Gondor. And of course the winged beasties are now able to Soar through the air and gracefully pick up soldiers and horses with ease and carry them away, but somehow, a hobbit with the one ring requires Kid Gloves.

[@sivad1025]

This is the single worst change in the trilogy. It absolutely destroys the emotional momentum of the movie

[@Yosemite_sam694]

The armies of Sauron the men from the east and the mercenaries of Sauron were bound to be epic, then the Scooby-Doo ghosts got rid of them in 2 seconds

[@dashsocur]

Resolving a battle has always been Peter Jackson's weak point. He got his start in monster movies. He LOVES making the enemies to be as menacing and dangerous as possible (and he's good at it). The problem is, he builds the enemies up so much that by the time he needs to resolve things there's not a satisfying way to do it and he ran into this in every big fight he's ever filmed. Fortunately, he often has a reasonable reason to "end" things (like the Balrog chasing off the goblins in Fellowship or the Eagles rescuing Thorin's company in the Hobbit). Helms Deep and Pelennor Fields are both situations where he doesn't have that so we end up with cavalry magically charging through a readied pike wall (honestly, he could have just had Eomer and Gandalf do a surprise attack and it would have been fine) or the infamous Green Goo.

[@Draconisrex1]

I've been saying this for YEARS.

[@chrisb9179]

2:17 I think I know the very reddit post that inspired this exact part of the video. By Fantasticbrick.

[@SamSloth216]

I 100% agree with this, I always thought it cheapened and weakened men and Gondor.

[@petergianakopoulos4926]

You got beat up in school

[@Maryland2]

@petergianakopoulos4926 You forgot to put on your makeup today 🤡

[@rong7496]

No, I’d want to know my enemies felt the fear of being attacked by an enemy they could not beat. If anything, I’m upset that Aragorn didn’t take those dead warriors with him to the gates of Mordor and have him wipe out Sauron’s army there, too.

[@TooSweet353]

I disagree, not only do the army of the dead showing up not ruin the whole point that the world of men could resist Sauron's might, it reinforces it in two ways: 1. Whether the Ghost Army showed up or not, if The Rohirrim did not show up, the battle would've ended in a loss, the Ghost Army proves how long the men could hold off Sauron's forces, the men could hold off Sauron's forces for so long that Aragorn managed to convince Ghosts in time who were at odds or not involved for so long to fight, it proves that everyone was willing to die before Minas Tirith fell. 2. It strengthens Aragorn's character arc a lot, this to me was truly the moment Aragorn became King, he against all odds convinced these Ghosts who had been Cursed by his predecessor Isildur to fulfil their oath freeing them from bondage, Ghosts who were uninvolved in the first war, Ghosts that refused to help. Also you misunderstand what Deus Ex Machina means, Deus Ex Machina is god-like intervention that stems out of nowhere or for sake of plot, Deus Ex Machina's don't stem from a character's choice, in the end it was the choice of The Three Hunters to go against all odds and recruit the ghosts, they weren't forced by anyone, they made that the decision and that was the decision that saved Minas Tirith. If this is a Deus Ex Machina, Helm's Deep has an even bigger Ex Machina, if no death really mattered then Theoden's last charge and every single death in Helm's Deep is pointless as well and obviously it's not.

[@mrhobs]

Haven’t even watch the video yet, but I’ve been thinking more lately about how there really are plenty of weird little things in the writing of the screenplay that don’t make sense and are mostly just trying match the poetic style of Tolkien… who probably also didn’t have a 100% ironclad grasp on how every detail of Middle-Earth works… but it’s all just so dang beautiful and authentically acted that you’re willing to forgive a lot. Still some of the greatest movies ever, but I’m definitely able to accept the title of this video as truth ha.

[@VlIl]

You have a good point. However men dont have to prove to be able to fight against 3 armys all alone. It was a act of survival that even the greatest army couldnt withstand. The army of the dead does lower the achievment of men, but that is due to Peter Jackson making them way to overpowered. The best way would be if the witchking was alive in that time holding the dead army at its toes due to some knowlegdge in terms of death, than Eowyn makes the killing blow against the witchking and the army of the dead can continue. Would lead to many up and downs, but that would solve 2 major problems: Army of the dead being op and Men´s sacrifice to still be a bit more meaningfull as you mentioned.

[@CybershamanX]

(10:58) This is a great observation: that the defenders love what's behind them while the orcs _fear_ what's behind them. 😎