Mastering the Soradin: D&D 5e

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• How To Calculate Avera...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:20 Soradin concepts
4:25 Why Sorcerer/Paladin?
6:18 How many levels of Paladin?
12:00 Subclasses
15:37 Ability scores
18:40 Ability score improvements
23:23 Race options
26:02 When to smite
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[@coldfusion230]

Irrespective of any tactical advantages, any paladin who fails to smite on a critical hit when able to do so shall become an Oathbreaker - Paladin Tenet #1

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

@@gamecavalier3230 Good thing you can create spell slots with sorcery points.

[@larstollefsen1236]

When I get that critical hit on a Paladin, I _smite_ as well seize the moment.

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

@@gamecavalier3230 Then they should stop playing for a few days, go to Las Vegas, and put some money on a slot machine.

[@M0ebius]

The problem is Oathbreakers are awesome.

[@andrewkennedy5946]

@@AvengerAtIlipa funny way to spell smite slots

[@Ahamaga]

I mean, yeah. The 5th reason to smite can be summarized as such: spell slots are worth nothing if you're dead lol. I've found myself in a situation where I had to spend all my spell slots smiting on the first encounter of the day. We were a three people party and the rogue scouted out too far and got caught with his pants down. Dude was at 0 on turn 1 and we were soon facing tpk. Good old times

[@WhiskeyPatriot]

*The Last Stand Intensifies*

[@IceDrake523]

I'd like to see your analysis comparing the multiclass options for Paladin. The 3 Charisma casters and their subclasses give it a lot of flexibility.

[@kibbo86]

I'm interested in what you could do as a Bardadin.

[@fightingfalcon777]

@Ofir Dolev that could be really tasty with a one level dip into Hexblade Warlock. 17 Swords Bard/2 Paladin/1 Hexblade Warlock. You can focus almost exclusively on CHA since that’ll be what you use for casting and attacking with Hexblade, and then you can still get 9th Level Spells

[@andrewpaul8732]

​@fightingfalcon777 tho explaining how your paladin made time for a career as a bad and somehow sold his soul for power along the way might be a little difficult to rp lol

[@justinkennedy5271]

​@andrewpaul8732 a bargain with the archfey as an oath of ancients paladin makes a certain amount of sense

[@ericmerrill9808]

I love the practical guide to smiting. I wish I could get my paladins to think about what they’re doing when they burn all their slots and get upset they don’t have anymore for the rest of the day.

[@robertsilvermyst7325]

I love my Sorcadin character, especially with the addition of Shadow Blade. I have been able to dump insane amounts of damage with a beefed-up Shadow Blade and stacking Divine Smites on top of it when I crit. I get advantage in darkness/dim light, and I can use Vow of Emnity for enemies in light or enemies resistant/immune to psychic. It is very difficult for my Sorcadin to lose concentration. I started with 2 levels of Paladin, then 4 levels of Aberrant Mind Sorc to get Shadow Blade and Resilient: Constitution. And from there, 6 more levels of Vengeance Paladin for 8 in Paladin. From there, I am focusing on Sorcerer until I am at 11 sorcerer, and finishing with a 9th Paladin to cap. Presently, my Byakko is lv 4 Aberrant Mind Sorc and lv 8 Vengeance Paladin, with my stats at 18 STR, 16 CON, and 18 CHA, witn INT being my dump in 8, though my newly acquired Headband of Intellect just got that covered up to 19.

[@J.sh_CDN]

As far as an early "Cast Bless and stay ranged" a ranger/cleric multiclass actually makes sense. Ranger will give you martial abilities and range as well as some subclass features, and cleric can give you spell slots and other goodies.

[@killcat1971]

Take a look at Circle of stars Druid for that.

[@ChickenSoupMusic]

Huh I think I want to try building a Gloomstalker Ranger / Twilight Cleric / Fighter build...

[@goodgulfgas]

I also like Fighter/Cleric because you can cast bless and then action surge and attack. It's like getting two turns on your first turn in combat. Or just a fighter with Fey Touched and select Bless as your spell. I like Rangers too though.

[@jr-jl9702]

@@ChickenSoupMusic I actually thought of something similar to that but without the fighter levels. The concept was starting out as Ranger 1 then immediately going for Cleric 1 for that delicious 300ft of darkvision. After that, I go for four more Ranger levels for Extra Attack then have the rest of my levels be Cleric. I was also thinking that I only have either a 1 or 2 level dip into Cleric and have the rest of my levels be Ranger, although I don't really know which one is stronger. In summary, two build ideas are Ranger 5/Cleric X or Cleric 1 (or 2)/Ranger X. Subclasses are Gloomstalker and Twilight Domain of course. I was also thinking of going for a Mark of Shadow Elf for the ability to cast Darkness then pairing it up with getting Eldritch Adept later to get Devil's Sight (unless I overlooked that Twilight Cleric's 300ft darkvision gives you the ability to see in magical darkness, in that case please use the ASI for something else like Sharpshooter or Skulker).

[@MrMultiHammer]

Double post? Thanks for the great vids Treantmonk

[@connor712]

I'm playing a soradin (sorcadin?) in a campaign where we typically only have one combat encounter per day. My character has established a reputation for dealing huge amounts of damage despite his baseline damage being completely shitty (2d8+8 per turn) just because I can afford to smite on so many of my attacks. Recently picked up shadow blade and I'm shocked by how efficient it is when cast at 3rd level. It adds the equivalent of a 1st level smite on every attack and equals a 3rd level smite in extra damage after landing just twice. If you don't have a good magic weapon, shadow blade is a fantastic option.

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

Do keep in mind that shadow blade has concentration, however! Paladins are hungry for concentration, and you’ll never use Paladin buffs that use concentration if your main weapon is a shadow blade. Also, there’s a fighting style that gives a +2 damage on all hits if it’s a one handed weapon, which shadow blade is. In my campaign, I play a fallen Aasimar Sorcadin. I don’t get any of the concentration Paladin spells, and it severely limits the list of Paladin spells. Mind you, my DM is homebrewing breaking the rules a little to let me green flame blade/booming blade with the shadow blade, which allows me to quicken action into turning sorcery points into extra attacks. It is spell slot starving though, with all the smites. But it’s pretty cool when that enemy that we need dead shows up and I unfurl my fear inducing Aasimar wings that for 60 seconds give a necrotic damage buff, in addition to my main damage type being psychic. “What is your sword made out of?” My -2 wisdom sorcadin: “It’s not.” I’m not saying shadow blade is a bad choice, but it’s a hungry choice, a greedy choice, but heck, sorcadin is that in general. The way me and my DM decided to circumvent the rules is to have essentially a custom made cast/base that has a value of 10 SP, which is enough for GFB/BB. Then I cast shadow blade around the cast, creating one object. The magic bit has no value but the cast has a value of 10 sp, so that’s how we argue I’m allowed to do it. I’m just scared what will happen if I throw my shadow blade and recall it to me, if it will drop the cast and prevent me from multi attacking. Just a theory though, I haven’t tested it yet. Honestly, in order to work, you need every edge you can get for a sorcadin. It’s not something you will get to play all the time. Treasure it. Also, not sure if I mentioned it, but there’s a fighting style that gives +2 damage to your shadow blade. Every edge counts.

[@silverokami504]

@@Solrex_the_Sun_King From what I heard and seen on several videos regarding people speaking on Green flame blade/Shadow blade combo it’s actually legal. If you go solely off of what Jeremy Crawford says

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

@@silverokami504 Tasha’s added the requirement of having a weapon worth a certain amount of silver to do the attack I assume so it would invalidate shadow blade for it.

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

@@silverokami504 what did he say?

[@briannelson27]

@@Solrex_the_Sun_King that was the intent I believe. however, one could argue that a 3rd level spell is quite costly when you look at the goods or services tables. so a spell slot has a monetery value regardless of the spell cast, and therefore qualifies. once could also ask the dm ahead of time to allow GFB and booming to work with weapon spells.

[@robertgalvez9551]

I asked for it, you promised, and you delivered. Thanks man!!!

[@youtubeisawebsite7484]

I really appreciate these in-depth videos recently that take a scalpel to components of multiclassing/character building. A lot of times, character build content anywhere on the internet sort of feels like restating the obvious once you've gotten an intermediate grasp of things. Challenging specific approaches like the Paladin 2 / Sorc X thing is very useful to me because it specifically asks "what is it that you think this accomplishes?" Maybe I'm just not tuned in to the right places, but it feels like there's often a layer of fuzz over everything that makes it hard to see exactly what the goal is in people's builds, or what their precise metrics for success are, and I think this video demonstrates how to refine that conversation.

[@elementzero3379]

I was just thinking of the Soradin last night, so the timing made me smile. Good observations and advice, as always. My mind wandered last night to Soradin because I was thinking of a hypothetical Eladrin "Fey Warden" Hexadin, and I had to focus past the thought, "But Soradin..."

[@steele5823]

I did the math and I’d pick Resilient (Con) over War Caster. It’s statistically nearly equivalent in most circumstances but it really comes into its own after 6th-level aura kicks in, You also get the extra HP from the +1 Con and better Con saves vs spells.

[@derimperator3847]

war caster will be important if you plan on casting shield/absorb elements on top of using a shield or you'll have to drop your weapon until your next turn (which you really don't want to do in melee) (and there's this nice niche for hexblade dips with opportunity booming blades) i'm all for going resilient over war caster, but unlike most casters, a stick/sword&board pally would actually be making use of the latter so consider war caster more to be a situational +5 AC buff

[@francescobisighin2495]

Very cool. I love the combo Devotion/Shadow sorc,it has flavor,a little bit of edgy and with the Hound you impose disadvantage on the spell Hold person/monster for devastating crit-smiting

[@CanisMythson]

The point you made of a two level dip of Paladin on a Swords Bard... That's basically my current Swords Bard, took two levels of Paladin after Swords Bard 6, though mostly for in-game reasons. He's ended up taking a bit of a psuedo-frontline role, with control spells to deal with large groups if need be. Doesn't hurt that he got the magic item Prayer Beads with access to Bless as a bonus action, so that tends to be what he casts and concentrates on right now. Have plans to take Holy Weapon as a magical secret in the future. Fun character, there's nothing he *can't* do. Except maybe move heavy objects, but we have a barbarian for that. He can keep up with our rogue in stealth, outdamage our hexblade and even synergize *with* the hexblade because Blind Fighting lets him benefit from the darkness spell, has access to a variety of useful buff and debuff spells, even has a ranged option with Firebolt through his Magic Initiate feat, which also gives him Shield in a pinch, though it is only once per long rest it has saved his butt a few times already. In tandem with Defensive Flourish he can hit AC in the 30s easily.

[@thefulcrum4466]

I learned a ton here, I would actually love to see a similar video for the bard/paladin.

[@greghamilton9505]

I play both, I love both. The paladin bard is better social and is really fun, and the paladin sorcerer can lay down more damage. Both are better than straight paladin imo

[@vadaritis]

My favorite character i have played, was a concept i had been toying with for a while but is MAD as hell. Goliath Paladin oath of Anchients, and Druid Circle of Land (mountain). Thematically i was going with a druidic priestly warrior. Mechanically i focused on melee combat with spells focused on buffs or aoe attacks despite a lower spell dc than i would have liked. But for stats i was super lucky rolling them out. Cause i needed Str, Con, Wis, and Cha in order to make it work.

[@misterright4528]

Nice build and I have some thoughts... a 16 str is more important than charisma for a low level pally. I just don't see saving throws coming up as often as attack rolls or skill checks. For me, a soradin is about leveraging action economy. Using quicken spell to booming blade or to activate spirit guardians or haste. To that end I'd go var human, take paladin to 3, sorcerer 1, paladin 4, scoop up polearm mastery and warcaster, then sorcerer to 4-5, boost charisma, bounce back to paladin to 12 and finish up with sorcerer.

[@isaacgraff8288]

This actually really helped me even though the character I am building, is a fighter/sorcerer.

[@The_MKUltra]

Other than misnaming the build. I love the in depth detail.

[@mcullennz]

Sorcadin pronounced sorsadin, not sorkadin. It's not a sorkerer your are adding to a Paladin

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

Haha sorkadin go brrrrrr! It’s how I pronounce it.

[@ascapedgoat8462]

Aw yeah! My favorite multiclass!

[@enricomigliorini9612]

This is a lovely video, thanks! I'd love to see this with Warlock instead of Sorcerer as I have a nice concept and I'd like to be able to play it effectively. When... when I get out of my Forever DM spot... which will happen any time now. Aaaany time now.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Good luck with that ;)

[@ChristopherIvey24]

Check out the Dungeon Dudes video on the witch knight.

[@davidbycroft]

I had quite some fun in a silly campaign with a Dex Sorcadin. Skub the Axebeak(Reskinned steed) riding Goblin Oath of the Ancients 'Paladin'. He got to Pally7/Sorc2 and would have kept going Sorc but the campaign died off. 'Bravely' longbowing his opponents from very far away and then switching to Rapier/Whip and Buckler for when they got close enough (He had a lance but never used it because they're very heavy for a little Gobbo. (Except for that one time with the windmill...) Shield of Faith got him to 20+AC and the Mounted combatant meant poor HeiHei didn't get immediately slaughtered. (Definitely not a blue and Yellow 'rooster' Axebeak). He hung back with the squishier party members to buff/protect and would sling various ensnaring shots to hinder anything that tried to get close before charging forth to intercept them. See Geraud Soulie's 'Goblin Rider' artwork for the visual inspiration. He was a rather fun, very mobile, and surprisingly tanky character to play. Heihei only got poofed once IIRC.

[@bigbbrendan]

Interesting takes! I'd have to say it really depends on the type of game you play. If you are running only a couple combats a day, this is the mightiest build to take to the front lines. However, if you have more than 4 combats in an adventuring day, you might find even a 2-3 level dip in hexblade is worth it for the short rest spell slots and immense utility you get as a warlock

[@rcschmidt668]

My DM had us roll random characters, and I have a Tabaxi Vengeance paladin that is faster and has a higher AC than anyone else at level 3. Looking to add some Divine Soul, so this was very timely. Thanks, Chris!

[@MultiClassGeek]

Reason #6 to smite - When you *really* need to break an enemy spellcaster’s concentration. Concentration DC is half damage dealt, so even a Level 1 smite is, on rounded-down average, a +4 to that, which in this era of Banded Math is huge.

[@elliotbryant3459]

you would need to deal 20 damage prior to smiting for a level 1 smite to boost the dc by 4.

[@MultiClassGeek]

@@elliotbryant3459 Great Weapon Master feat. Greatsword 2d6, average damage just above 7 because you're rerolling 1 and 2s. +10 damage from power attacking, +3 STR. There's your 20 base damage. Although even without that, the point stands - chuck in a smite if you really need to disrupt concentration. Average damage on a L3 smite is 18, which is going to bump that Concentration DC skywards in any situation

[@omegacyborg]

I have a Soradin build I'm playing myself, but the Sorcerer subclass is the UA Phoenix Sorcerery and it's been fun so far, the Paladin subclass is Vengeance

[@philwalsworth4085]

I'm making an 11 eldritch knight 5 clockwork soul for a level 16 short series, very excited

[@chainclaw07]

Boss killer - hold person/monster for auto crits on a quickened boom or green flame blade attack + Divine smite. Add 1 lvl of hexblade to be less MAD. Not only that, for hordes of enemies you can green flame blade twice per turn for 2 sorc points. To control the battlefield you can booming blade multiple opponents to hurt or have them stay in place. You can fireball, counterspell. At lvl 12 You can hold monster, quicken a GFB on a hexed longsword for 2d10 slash + 4d8 fire + 10d8 radiant. Your teammates can hex said boss and they're at disadvantage to get out of it and they can take auto melee crits... at worst if you have other casters in your party, you can make them burn legendary saves

[@Johnny_Shields]

I'm very much interested in a bardic version of this. Maybe focused on a melee support role using Guidance from Blessed Warrior and Inspiration.

[@cameronkirby9479]

Same here. I've wanted to make a Paladin/Bard for a while.

[@chuggerx603]

Sword Bard + Pal smiting can give you insane AC and plenty of extra slots, tho not as many as a sorc gets (cuz of meta). See treantmonk's cockroach build... or immortal cockroach... or eternal cockroach - it combines pal and sword bard (sorry I can't remember the exact name - it's *something* cockroach.

[@colbertdolbert6225]

Love the video! Just as i was planning on playing one. It would be cool if you covered playing a ranger/cleric multiclass too! I cant quite figure out how to distribute my levels.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Noted!

[@TheRagnarok428]

You know, I gotta say the war cleric is really tempting on a ranger. Thing is though, I think it's best after you pick up guardian of nature at 13th level. It helps spike your spellcasting for more GoN casts, and now you can make good use of those bonus action war cleric attacks with a bow and sharpshooter. This could work on most rangers, but especially so on a gloom stalker I think.

[@agilemind6241]

5 Ranger out of the gate is a must to grab Sharpshooter and extra attack, or you will feel WEAK compared to your teammates. After that it depends on the subclass, the base ranger doesn't get anything particularly good, but Horizon Walker for one has some fantastic high level abilities. Honestly, Starry Druid-6 is now my go-to MC for ranger, Faerie Fire is just so sweet with SS and the flexibility of Starry Form gives you something good no matter the situation, and the Omen is like a Precise strike. But if you're committed to Cleric, War-2 is good, Grave-6 is good, Light-5 is nice, Life-2 ain't bad, Order-2 can be good depending on your party/playstyle, otherwise any Cleric-2 options (except Trickster) are a good dip for any class.

[@chuggerx603]

@@agilemind6241 I have never been happy w/ Sharpshooter unless I have some way to mitigate that -5 to hit penalty. For ranger that means either kobold in a campaign w little sunlight, like out of the abyss - or gloom: with either you'll often have advantage, and advantage largely mitigates the -5. A bless spell kind of mitigates it, at least a bit, but burning a whole round for a buff is questionable if your purpose is damage dealing. 5e fights are often short, and buffs seldom have a chance to be meaningful in short fights - and the price for casting it is so high, given the tight action economy. War Cleric's +!0 to hit mitigates the -5 quite well but has few uses per day - but if you have few fights per gaming day, it could work.

[@MikeydactylGaming]

I'm playing a Clockwork Soul Tortle that I plan to multiclass into Paladin for 2 levels at level 9. Only takes spells that don't require saving throws and primarily invests in STR. Fun, slightly weird build that ISN'T optimal, but can deal out respectable damage, has amazing support spellcasting, etc. Absolutely able to hold its own.

[@Dave004]

Great video! Likely going Soradin my next campaign. 6 lvls Conquest (for Spiritual Weapon) then the rest Divine Soul Sorcerer. Decent dmg from lvls 5 to 8 concentrating on either Divine Favor or Bless with extra attack and Spiritual Weapon. Then once 3rd lvl Sorcerer (lvl 9 overall) Shadow Blade upcast to 3rd lvl x 2 plus Spiritual Weapon for some nice dmg and good chance to crit smite in dim light. Then at Sorcerer 5 either keep Shadow Blade in dim light scenarios or Spirit Guardians for that nice tanky feeling of bringing baddies around me and watching them burn. Downside is takes a while to turn on but in the meantime just Paladin isn't such a bad thing. If your DM allows Shadow Blade and Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade, then if two enemies are beside eachother, 2x Shadow Blade and quicken spell Green Flame Blade is pretty powerful as well (and adding a smite a couple times too and thats big nova).

[@joelsasmad]

7:10 Actually at the same level a full Martial would get Extra attack a Sorcadin who multiclasses out at level 2 would get quicken spell for bonus action blooming/green flame blades. You still want to come back for extra attack but I think it is worth mentioning.

[@Plamkton]

Another option is the sentinal feat so you can use your reaction to attack other enemies that don't target you. If you still go paladin 6, and Sorcerer 14 that's 4 attacks you can potentially take in 1 turn.

[@shoulung6203]

Considering the hexblade dip; it’s only affects one level of play in regards to extra attack, so it’s not slowing down damage there. For smiting, more attacks landing is more damage, so the extra attack bonus is worth it to me. You also pointed out that you’re not going to have room for great weapon master, sentinel and polearm master, so I’d rather go with the war caster/sentinel combo for all that free extra damage, which in the long run is probably going to do more than your smites. I’d also go 8 levels in paladin for the extra feat, so I’m contributing that extra damage earlier. I think it’s worth the level dip if you’re more focused on the smitadin than gish concept.

[@timovandervalk679]

I think the most Interesting thing about taking Bard instead of Sorcerer, is that Magical Secrets would allow one to get high lvl Paladin spells back. For a Paladin 6 / Bard 14 that would not come online until lvl 16, but full on Paladins would not get their fifth lvl spells until lvl 17 either.

[@bonzwah1]

not an optimized story, but fun story about paladin 2. I had a campaign once where we were told that it was ending around level 8ish, so I figured I could forgo extra attack if my build became fun super early. I'd have my fun early on, and then ride out the last bit of the campaign on the weaker side. so by the time we were fighting the big bad, I was paladin2/bard4(whispers)/sorcerer3(divine). We had ended up getting to level 9 and I had been kinda regretting my decision to not get extra attack, but the big bad was humanoid and this one moment made it all worth it haha. I had rolled super high on initiative and was the only party member going before the big bad, so I cast "hold person" on the big bad and then used "silvery barbs" to get him to fail a save he initially made, thinking to rob him of his turn. by some miracle and using all the random features i had collected to maintain my concentration through all the mob attacks, I managed to still be concentrating on hold person when my turn came up again...and my friends had cleared a path to the big bad, so I rolled up and cast booming blade and smited and used psychic blades on the auto-crit. I'm not doing the math again, but I remember I rolled over 10d8 and almost 10d6...and then did quickened spell and did everything again with my bonus action lol. That is, by far, the most dice I've ever rolled playing dnd haha. But in future campaigns, we've really started to love hold person and hold monster as a two person combo, where one is a paladin and one is a primary caster with access to those spells.

[@Asianladylover4l]

I'm playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 currently finishing our campaign soon at level 20 now but I had lots of fun upcasting spirit guardians + booming blade + smite using metamagics. I also took the feat Eldritch Adept Devil's Sight to booming blade smite enemies with advantage. Now because we actually played till 20th level I have Wish.

[@Kaduyett]

I played a Saytr Crown Palidan6 multiclassed into the bard UA Satire subclass which had the tumble ability. The Tumble ability allowed for a dash & disengage as a bonus action where you thematically rolled around.

[@Kaduyett]

I went 2 paladin, 5 bard, 4 paladin before the campaign ended.

[@deathtoexistance]

One thing I'd mention is certain paladin subclasses mitigate the spell progression issues you have somewhat, either a couple getting misty step at 7 for example. It's not the same as getting it at 3 for sure, but it's also better than getting them at 9 10 or 11 depending on 6 7 or 8 paladin first. I'm not saying it makes up for spellcasting overall, but I think for paladin oaths it's the main thing I consider since as you eluded to all the channel divinities and subclass features are relatively on par compared to the base class features.

[@Thehotdogman]

I like the shadow sorcerer for their shadow blade. It does 2d8 minimum and 5 max. Yeah it's concentration so you can get smacked out of it but that's what the con saves are for.

[@veras7927]

The biggest downside of sorcadins is that they just come online so late. You want both aura of protection and metamagic to really feel like a sorcadin, which means you have to be level 9 minimum. Every sorcadin I try to plan ends up just being a vanilla paladin and never levelling up high enough to get the sorcerer levels :(

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

Sorcadins in general are extremely power hungry, in terms of feats, spell slots, and more. You need to take every edge you can. Definitely roll for stats and hope for an 18 so your racial +2 can start you with 20 charisma. But also, you need a STR of 13, even if your weapon does Dex damage. Again, extremely power hungry build, but sate the hunger and it can be strong.

[@WhiskeyPatriot]

@@Solrex_the_Sun_King “Sate the hunger” that sounds metal as hell.

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

@@WhiskeyPatriot sorcadins are metal as heck if you can get them to work.

[@Puffinbar]

Yeah, a 3rd hopping off point that wasn’t mentioned in the vid is lvl9. Like if you go 8 for that ASI you might as well get 3rd level spells. It’s such a hard decision.

[@chuggerx603]

try playing adventurer's league. Flakey campaigns ending cuz players lose interest doesn't happen there. In AL you can port your character to pretty much any other AL game where your char's level matches. If you can't find table games for AL in your area, try online - you can play on Roll20 w/ players from all over the world. You can level as fast or slow as you want - and it's not that hard to get to higher levels.

[@Scotch20]

the 2 level paladin dip green flame blade build can work with draconic sorcerer's extra fire damage, with searing smite the dpr seems to match up pretty closely at least when using low level smites, and you will get more spell slots

[@MarianoPingitore]

I would add a 4th instance where you might want to smite, even if the other 3 conditions are not met: against enemy casters that are concentrating on spells. If you can up the damage of a single hit to inflate the CON save DC, you might be able to interrupt a spell you otherwise would have to deal with for an extended period of time. Most of these things require experience at reading the situations so I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment that it's not correct to have set in stone rules for when you are smiting. Anything that starts with "you always smite when..." Is a no-no, generally

[@TheTsugnawmi2010]

"The obvious Sorcerer choices are Aberrant Mind, Clockwork Soul, and Divine Soul" I'm here awkwardly chuckling with my Wild Magic/Devotion multiclass. I have a particular concept in mind, and I'm hoping this video would help optimise it.

[@Soupdude338]

Thank you. gwm, wild magic, devotion and the money starts to come in.

[@hfix307]

Ive played a lot of sorcadins. I actually prefer going 1 paladin, 5 sorceror as a lvling order first, before going back into paladin. Especially as a divine soul.. This gets you spirit guardians and twinned/quickened cantrips, and thats worth more than extra attack and even (arguably) aura

[@Soupdude338]

I cant imagine delaying smite for that long. But as long you like it.

[@hfix307]

@@Soupdude338 Smite is a bit of a trap, especially at early levels. You want the slots for shield

[@Soupdude338]

@@hfix307 I think that's a bit of an over statement as it really depends on the group. More importantly though, I want to play a sorcadin, not a paladin or a sorcerer. Waiting until 7th level for that is not something I'm interested in.

[@Solrex_the_Sun_King]

If you roll for stats, you can get up to an 18 before racial bonuses, potentially getting a 20 in a stat if you use a racial +2, however, you will also roll lower than the minimum in point buy, so you will have some lower scores as well. Nothing is guaranteed as well. But having a sorcadin start at 20 charisma really helps with the feat hunger. Combine that with a race that gets a feat at level 1, and you have a potential to quench some of that feat hunger. Keyword potential, if you roll bad, maybe don’t make a sorcadin.

[@Dyricos]

I have a character design I'm about to try out that is a soradin (and his name is Sora Din). I actually am able to start sorcerer because I've designed him as a dex based (his strength is 13 just so he can multiclass) paladin with draconic sorcerer giving him similar AC as full heavy armor while also being able to stealth. I'm able to do this as a half elf since they have a base +2 char, +1 in two stats. I love the concept and versatility of a soradin since you can gain spell slots for smiting or you can do some cool tricks with your sorcery points for like twin spell haste or other cool combos. I'm really excited to try him out!

[@vinland5558]

One feat I do want to mention that you've left out is Resilient Constitution. I'm playing a paladin right now, I'm fairly high level (16). I took this at level 8 and it has been an absolute life saver. Yes you don't have the ability to case with your hands full, but that doesn't matter because you can drop weapon -> cast spell -> pick up weapon on your turn with no chance of it being interrupted (unless the DM starts readying actions, which should have a visible note to it, so you can just start dropping stuff behind you). It allows you to use some of those absolutely fantastic buff spells, ensure they're up 99% of the time (Currently I have to take 28 damage from a single instance of damage to even have to roll, and that only fails on a 1). Add in bless, add in bardic inspiration, perhaps favored from the gods if you're a divine soul sorcadin. Sure, you don't quite get the same raw damage that say, polearm master gets you, or the ability to reaction spellcast, and it means buffing one saving throw by a large amount rather than all saving throws by 1. But it, in my opinion, is well worth it both on paladin and even sorcadin

[@ArdentLion]

I use a dex-based Protector Aasimar Vengeance Paladin 6/Clockwork Soul 10. Low Con score to get 13 strength for multiclass. I make up for it with high level Aid, Armor of Agathys, Bastion of Law, shield, absorb elements, high saves. In a pinch I can Lay on Hands to self-heal and still use a quickened green flame blade+smite to keep DPR up. Leveled up Shadow Blade is great thematically and works well enough mechanically on a high level "Clockwork Vengeance" Soradin.

[@UlavaleAs]

Booming Blade scales up to 3d8 + 4d8 if they move willingly. At high levels, Booming Blade and Quickened Booming Blade + Smite on both should be doing more damage than extra attack. You can also Twinned Spell Booming Blade to attack to creatures at once.

[@Jacob-Day]

It's probably helpful to consider both a burst ability (e.g. you are travelling overland and are only likely to have one encounter that day) and sustained ability (e.g. clearing out the 50 room dungeon) as I tend to use both when I GM, albeit the burst ability becomes less relevant in mid levels when you get access to long range teleports and travel abilities and begin to outclass all but the most dangerous wandering monsters.

[@SB-yp8vp]

I would make a case for Pal 2 / Sor #. I’m playing one now and it is very effective. I will admit that I miss that second attack but if I really want to go all out I could always quicken booming blade. Not something you can do often but still fun. My hit points were low but I was able to offset that with upcasting False Life. But if I were asked the main reason to just do 2 levels of Paladin, it is that it allowed me to get the Soradin feel right away. I recognize that at higher levels I’m essentially going to revert back to being more of a caster, sort of like your advice on the Bladesinger, but I still had my Soradin fun for most of the campaign.

[@authorindisguise5173]

I think more people should think about Lore Bard. The early Magical Secrets can give you Spirit Guardians, and it brings a lot of skills and versatility. You lose Quicken Spells, but trying to balance that with the Divine Smite spell-sink was probably a headache anyway.

[@dragonhearthx8369]

Most everyone thinks of the lore bard when they think bard. It's kind like when people think of hex blade or bear totem barbarian when they talk about the respected classes

[@HybridHerps]

You also lose the ability to make more spell slots though, so that might be worth considering

[@dragonhearthx8369]

@@HybridHerps in all honesty, if it is spell slots you want warlock is the best at that. And Dao warlock is the best suited. Magic bludgeoning has very few resistances.

[@authorindisguise5173]

@@HybridHerps I suppose, but, unless you're warlock spell-looping, it's only one first-level spell

[@MultiClassGeek]

Having flashbacks to the 3.5 days of WIS-casting Paladin MAD shenanigans

[@liamhogan4369]

I’d also add that smiting can be an excellent way to force a high DC concentration check, dropping a debilitating spell effect. Of course, an action surge will more likely succeed at that, but it doesn’t quite carry the same impact, and a Soradin has an awful lot more 4th spell slots to burn than a Fighter action surges.

[@stefanjrgensen6842]

i could see going 1 or 3 lvls into warlock hexblade for hex warrior feature allowing me to use my charisma for attacking and dmg and then 6 lvls into paladin for aura of protection and the rest into sorcerer like hexblade lvl 1/paladin lv 6(whatever you prefer)/clockword sorcerer lvl 13 allowing for high ac and decent dmg. also means i can focus on charisma and constitution.

[@Jscallen13]

Ooooooh. Now I just need the Hexadin.

[@reespewa]

I've been playing with a lot of MAD multiclassing build ideas recently. Best way around it I can see is going variant human or custom lineage and taking the tough feat so CON can be sacrificed. It's equivalent of gain 4 points in CON which can be all the difference. It sacrifices the saving throw, but for Soradin we can recover some of that through taking the sorcerer dip first. Of course this does also depend how feat hungry the build is.

[@reespewa]

Further to above: Variant Human with Tough gains the following: 13 Str, 15 +1 Dex, 12 Con, 15 + 1 Cha, 8 Wis, 8 Int Constitution is equivalent of 16 Dex is 16 Cha is 16 Str 13

[@GuardianNoodle]

I would like to see you do one on the paladin/bard Multiclass (this is my favorite build)

[@deltavictor8369]

Definitely a fun combo. I played one once, roleplayed as basically Gilderoy Lockhart. I took Inspiring Leader specifically so the rest of the party would have to listen to ten minute monologues about my character's greatness, how we would lead them to victory and some small measure of his own glory, how bards would sing tales of their brave acts as his traveling companions, etc., if they wanted to receive the temp hp. Thankfully for all involved I was not made to actually give the speeches, though I was fully prepared to.

[@GuardianNoodle]

@@deltavictor8369 while not the most optimal oath of glory is a great RP with bard I did oath of glory/lore bard who’s whole deal was glorifying his companions deeds and would quote epics as he battled (there’s not a bad combo of sub classes imo)

[@gustaafargoan]

I played a set of Drow twins in the Avernus campaign. They were born to the house Xorlarrin. One of the twins was a 3rd born. He was to be sacrificed to Llolth. Since he was a twin, the Matron Mother decided he had to not only be sacrificed, he had to be flayed alive. His father was okay with the sacrifice but not the flaying. He arranged for Bregan De'arth to make a false attack against the House of Xorlarrin. The attack was a bit late so the 3rd born was partially flayed, but not dead. The ruse worked and the father and his 2 sons escaped. They were escorted to Silverymoon and became devotees of Elistrae. They learned that they had innate magical abilities and became Divine Soul sorcerers. The problem was that one was a sworn sacrifice to Llolth. He is a mix between Divine Soul and Shadow Sorcerer. He gets the best benefit available. He gets to choose the best spells or benefits from either subclass. The problem is that Llolth has added a bit of chaos to the mix. He has a 20% chance that his spells have the opposite effect. Heals will hurt, etc. During the Arkhan The Cruel section a sacrifice had to be made. Normally it would be Lulu or the Unicorn. My character volunteered, but was denied because he was tainted. His twin volunteered and was accepted. The tainted brother said that his sacrifice would not be in vain and swore an oath of vengeance. Currently 8th level Sorcerer/1st level Paladin. I guess my point is that sometimes circumstances make for a better character than planning it out.

[@ericpeterson8732]

I would like to amplify those other people who would like to see if you could discuss sword and shield (aka sword & board) and why it's suboptimal and any possibility to make it more optimal.

[@terrynewsom9846]

How about this? Custom Lineage - Feat War Caster 1. Sorcerer - Divine Soul - (Con Save Prof) 2. Paladin - Medium armor / Weapons (mostly attacking with booming blade / green flame blade) 3. Paladin - Smite 4. Cleric - War - Heavy Armor - extra attack using bonus action Wis bonus times per day. 5. Sorcerer out to 20... (Option take one more level of cleric for the channel divinity I don't think it is necessary but YMMV) eventually you will get 4 ability score improvements / feats. (I would go sword and board less feat dependent, but obviously less DPR) maybe it isn't exactly optimized, but sounds interesting.

[@ericcollins1727]

Always wanted to make a Paladin/sorcerer gestalt character since I’ve tended to play in smaller groups.

[@mattgopack7395]

Interesting video, there's some good points in it for sure! I think there's a little more wiggle room on a lot of these points than the argument made in the video, but it's always nice to see a strong argument. Where I particularly stray would be: Paladin 2/Sorc X: I think this is a fine build for many campaigns - it works fine for a melee sorcerer, especially if it's a campaign where there might be fewer fights in a day (so the nova damage from smites is a significant bonus). It slows down sorcerer spell progression a bit, but unlike the paladin 6 version it allows getting sorcerer spells relatively timely in most campaigns (eg, in my experience most campaigns usually end up being mostly in the lvl 3-11 range, where the paladin 2 version gets 3rd level spells at lvl 7, and ends with 5th level spells known. Vs the paladin 6, which barely gets 3rd level spells known at lvl 11. One will feel a lot more like a spellcaster with melee capabilities than the other - and even at high levels, getting a 9th level spell is also tempting. Aura of protection is amazing, but I don't think the other one is wrong). Hexblade dip: The hexblade dip is nice if you want to keep fighting in melee at higher levels. There it really depends on the level range we're playing in - but a 1-2 level warlock dip relieves a *lot* of pressure on the ASIs for high level (the first making it so you don't have to worry about bumping STR, the potential 2nd one giving you advantage on CON saves. That's not always going to be worth it, but if it's with a generous DM for sword and board casting and it's going to be at higher levels, I think it could make sense. Like a lvl 12 character with paladin 6/sorcerer 4/warlock 2 can get 20 CHA, 20 on its attacking stat, and the warcaster adv on saving throws - whereas without the hexblade dip, you'd need 3 more ASIs to get all of that. It's definitely more situational/I wouldn't use it as a baseline, but it's got some usefulness.

[@agilemind6241]

For a high level campaign Hexblade + Sorcerer + Paladin works out ok, they won't be the biggest damage dealers but they are extremely sturdy and reliable. But for most campaigns two classes are all you really have time for in which case Warlock is probably better. If you plan to take 6 levels of Paladin before MCing it works out like this: 6 Paladin = 14d8 smite + 3d8/SR Adding Sorcerer 1 = 3d8 extra smite dice / LR Warlock 1 = 2d8 extra smite dice / LR + 2d8 /SR Sorcerer 2 = 11d8 / LR Warlock 2 = 4d8 / LR + 4d8 / SR Sorcerer 3 = 15d8 / LR Warlock 3 = 6d8 + 6d8/SR Sorcerer 4 = 20d8 / LR Warlock 4 = 6d8 + 6d8/SR Sorcerer 5 = 25d8 / LR Warlock 5 = 8d8 + 8d8/SR You really have to get to Sorcerer 4 for Sorcerer to significantly outpace Warlock for Smite, and Hexblade & Genie warlocks give additional bonuses to damage which is likely to put them above Sorcerer in terms of total damage dealt. So even doing Two-handed weapons with Hexblade is competitive/better than Soradins. 2-Paladin on a Sorcerer is competitive at lower-mid levels, but at higher levels you really feel the difference in hit points. Plus using 2SP to get your extra attack with the blade cantrips is really expensive, though comboed with Ashardalon's Stride to proc BB damage it could work out. (I haven't built one of these since Strixhaven came out.)

[@8684LYFE]

Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4/Warlock 2 is a character that's limited to level 2 spells known at level 12 though. That's very, very rough. Especially when you consider that many campaigns are close to ending around this level. It's a trade off that might make sense if you know you're going to progress into Tier 4 play, but at those levels, magic items kind of throw a lot of white room theorycrafting out of wack. It's anecdotal, I've honestly never seen a campaign go to Tier 4 without some pretty extreme, build-defining magical items. It's basically required to let weapon users keep up. Because at that point you're dealing with caster players using Shapechanged/True Polymorphed Planetars, Simulacrums and other crap.

[@agilemind6241]

@@8684LYFE Only if you are considering your character as a spellcaster. If you are a GWM-Smite machine the limited level of spells known makes no difference at all, because all the spells you want are in levels 1-2: Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step, Bless, Blur. The only spell you'd maybe want beyond 2nd is Haste, and some people have made the mathematical argument that Bless is better than Haste anyway.

[@8684LYFE]

​@@agilemind6241 A Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2 can't be a GWM-Smite machine as you need Warlock 3 to apply CHA to 2-handed weapons. With Warlock 3, at level 12 you can't get 20 Charisma even with Cus. Lineage because you lose an ASI, unless you go Warlock 4 and abandon even more Sorcerer levels (at that point, just go full Hexadin, it's not a dip anymore) Getting to Warlock 3 also has its own progression problems if you want to use GWM. You either rush Warlock 3 and delay Extra attack to level 8, and Aura to level 9 (both brutal), or you grab only Warlock 1 early and one-hand it until level 9, but because you only have 1 ASI (Pal 4) you NEED to grab GWM with it, so it's a dead feat sitting there for up to 4 levels. And I do believe even a GWM-Smite machine (who never casts Hypnotic Pattern, etc) benefits from higher level spells. Just getting Fly at level 3 allows you to keep being a GWM-Smite machine in many scenarios because otherwise you're not meleeing any flying enemies without baby-sitting from your teammates. I know Haste vs. Bless has been a KZbinr debate recently, but fundamentally those spells affect the game in different dimensions. Haste is a decent option for Paladins because you can share it with your steed. A hasted steed with 120 movement and an extra hasted action (which they can use to take the disengage option) can make you practically unhittable just through mobility. That's enough speed to run out of melee, and even potentially behind total cover for spell and range attacks (terrain dependent) each round.

[@agilemind6241]

​@@8684LYFE for a GWM-Smite machine you don't need a high CHA. Focus on STR and CON, and take only 14 CHA. The only spells you'll be casting won't rely on saving throws because most of your slots are going to be used for SMITE! The build is : Variant Human - Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 2, Take GWM, wield a Greatsword, use the 2 ASIs to max out 20 STR, have a 16 CON and 14 CHA. In combat it plays as follows: Hex + 2 GWM attacks = 31 DPR assuming 2nd level slots of smiting (35 when using 3rd level slots). 1st level slots are saved for Shield, Absorb Elements, and Hex - Situationally you might want to use some for Hellish Rebuke. If you super optimize you've gone Hexblade and Vengeance Pally so if there is single boss monster you use HBC or Vow of Emnity as your BA on subsequent turns or you're moving your Hex / getting GWM BA attacks if fighting a bunch of little guys. Find Steed is good at lower levels but by level 10 it's unlikely to last more than 2 rounds before getting killed, especially if you're using it to be tres-annoying running off the edge of the map.

[@sesimie]

I'm playing an Oath of Conquest 3 / Divine soul 1 based on the ultimate spellsword build from your videos chris. and the Catch 22 build by Colby of d4: D&D Deep Dive. It is easily the most powerful multiclass I've seen in terms of damage. I've kept clerics up, after they went down three times with lay on hands...and i'm the best tank many times i play with different parties. So a video like this is right up my alley!

[@Hyde_Hill]

For Soradin that is more tanky I like Sentinel over Warcaster, as a lot of DM's will waive the empty hand for Shield spell or if using a two handed weapon you have a free hand anyway. What you can do with Sentinel is quicken mirror image and then if one of the mirror's get attacked it triggers an opportunity attack. Did that with my pre Tasha Oath of Vengeance, Divine Soul combo and it was a lot of fun.

[@Matt-sk6hi]

Warlock is nice for being less MAD. I like a single level dip in warlock, 2 levels if you want the strongest ranged cantrip in the game to compete with your melee damage.

[@Olav_Hansen]

You were saying 6 was a good jumping point, but I would suggest jumping at 6, then jumping back when you have 8 levels of sorcerer (if you get that far in a campaign). At 20th levels, the combos that make the most sense are p6s14, p8s12, p11s9, p12s8. I think the first 2 are the best ones, but some might just want that extra damage on a hit. Personally I feel drawn to taking 6 paladin then 8 sorcerer then 2 paladin then sorcerer again, just to round out with all the asi's. If I didn't need any more feats I'd probably go 6.

[@crabcrouton]

1 level in Hexblade right after Paladin combined with Custom Lineage and a half feat lets you "start" with an 18 Charisma. You are indeed boosting Charisma in comparison to not going Hexblade.

[@cohesian1]

In a rolled stats game I played a Dex soradin. 6 Vengeance Paladin/ 12 Shadow Sorcerer-he was made a demi-god and became an NPC. I loved playing with cool spell selections and being so mobile. After he left the party, I played an Artificer. Let’s just say, damage output from the party dropped immensely… our DM had to throw monsters with easily over 1000 HP to last more than 2-3 rounds against us, after my Soradin ascended, those 1000 HP monsters became a lot harder to beat. My character was more survivable but definitely lost damage output.

[@JackOfHearts42]

I play a level 17 Sorcadin with 6 levels of Paladin in a party where I'm the only multiclasser. I can easily keep up or surpass the damage of all others, besides the rogue. I went Mountain Dwarf oath of Devotion & Storm Sorcery. Gish play-style where I smite mostly only on crits, and choose stormy/thundery spells for flavour. It's a super super fun character. With a fighter, barbarian, rogue and ranger, I went mostly Sorcerer so that our Bard wasn't the only good caster in the party. Also, I've never ever failed a concentration check.

[@macattack5863]

I like 4 levels in warlock with hexblade as an option. You take blade pact, eldritch mind, improved pact weapon, and great weapon Master. You cant cast as a reaction and obviously you don't really get many sorcerer levels unless the campaign is really long. This means your more of padlock with a sorcerer dip at the end. It also makes you more of a smite build than a fish build. Still pretty good though

[@chuggerx603]

In AL a lvl 2 pal/lvl x sorc sorcadin (I've always seen sorcadin, not soradin) is quite viable. You go variant human + PAM feat to get 2 attacks per round, and at some point you can rebuild to get another feat because you can use meta magic to booming blade twice per round. In AL modules rarely have more than 2 significant fights per gaming day, so you usually will have plenty of slots and/or sorc points. You don't get warcaster, but you're using a 2h weapon and don't need it - except we'll lose concentration more often (which can be a problem). This char can often move in and out of melee because of the reach of the polearm (some monsters have 10' reach, however). But you don't have to melee: you can cast spells, instead. You get someone to run a module that drops Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and you play in that ASAP. That way your base str score can be 13, but w the magic item: 19. Put 16 in Cha and 16 in Con - and push Cha to 20 as you level up. Do this for caster reasons. It's a weird class concept. Hit points are kind of low to be on front line, but again with reach, this may not be an issue. I'd only pick this if I really wanted specific things from being a strong caster. This build gets wish, if it goes way up high. But losing the aura is painful.

[@SuperSorcerer]

ב"ה Another good opportunity to smite is when you hit a spellcaster concentrating on a big spell and it is really important to break his concentration ASAP. You want big hits so the concentration DC would be high. Usually the soradins and palabards I see multiclass into sorcerer after 5 levels of paladin and take the 6th level of paladin only after 5 levels of sorcerer or bard because getting the spell progression up to 3rd level spells (and bardic inspiration back on a short rest for bard) is really significant while 3rd level spells can often already be upcast to good use (like spirit guardians) or just really good without upcasting (like fear) so the full caster levels become less urgent. I mean, the aura is nice and all, but often there are just not many character in that aura, and most enemies at levels 6-10 don't force saving throws, so for that +3 against a dragon's breath that give 15% higher chance per character in the aura to take only half damage (and player character often spread out anyway against such enemies because it is better not to be targeted than to be targeteted and have a bonus to save) it could be delayed to level 11. Obviously, everything depend of the enemies you face at your tables, so the best path might change from table to table. Also, In my table magical (polearms and hand crossbows) are rare compared to magical sword and axes (and bows) so people are skipping polearm master and stay with just great weapon master and a two handed sword anyway, which is powerfull for soradins that cast spells with their bonus action on turns they don't drop an enemy to 0 hit points or crit through the quickened spell metamagic.

[@Musubi9092]

Soradin! 🥳

[@DerMunchkinable]

My personal favorite sorcadin build is dex based pally ( any subclass really) /Draconic sorcerer. The sorcerer dip gives 13 + dex ac so equivalent to plate while also grabbing shield spell. Allows Dueling fighting style for even greater damage with minimal loss to defensive options. Plus, you have higher initiative, stealth and dex saves which are traditionally a weakness for pally.

[@isultansultangaliev5852]

How do you deal with the Str 13 prerequisite for Multiclassing?

[@DerMunchkinable]

@@isultansultangaliev5852 So funny enough, you don't need to start with 13 if you're starting class is paladin. As I understand it, you would need the 13 str requirement if you started sorcerer and then went pally

[@jiminkpen9750]

@@DerMunchkinable to multiclass out of paladin you need 13 str.

[@DerMunchkinable]

@@jiminkpen9750 dang, looks like you're right. I geuss if you get lucky enough with stats it works great but not so much for point buy

[@ominous5409]

Extra attack with 2 smites at 5d8 One attack with 1 smite at 5d8+3d8 from booming blade. Although you are getting slightly less damage, you get more if you guarantee the enemy movement. Fear, or simply using your find steed mount to disengage from an enemy will proc the extra 4d8 damage from booming blade making it higher in the end. I'd say the balance out fairly well tbh.

[@scrotymcboogerballs6756]

Great breakdown! Can we expect to see a new build video for a Soradin after this breakdown, similar to what you did with the bladesinger? Or do you not plan on doing that?

[@jornohh]

This is why i think paladin lvl 2/sorcerer X is the best way to go, if you want the extra attack just quicken a booming blade/green flame blade, this will allow you to fulfill that gish role much faster, You can still get 2 attacks per turn, eventually cast 9th level spells, and cast higher level divine smites way earlier. Add in a single level of hexblade to make the character less MAD and add replenishing sorcerer points with spell conversion.

[@R_o_o_k_i_n_g_t_o_n]

personally im thinking of making a protector aasimar divine soul sorcerer oath of redemption paladin all about using control spells and being pretty much a full caster with i will probably use firearms actually as my form of attack to allow me to stay at a bit more range to help stop my concentration from being broken in the event i cant stop all enemies movements or force them to take time to recover from say a spell stun or something. honestly the oath of redemption just fits my general ethos pretty god damned well and mixed with divine soul for some healing magic paired with full access to the cleric selection of spells just sounds fucking perfect to me :D

[@aldoushuxley5953]

Be custom lineage -> 18 cha then 6 paladin -> 20 cha then 2 hexblade -> eldritch mind (no warcaster needed) + agonizing blast/... then sorc

[@TreantmonksTemple]

If you are reaching level 8 and are a Paladin/Warlock, I would consider that a hexadin build, even if you add on some sorcerer later.

[@WayTooAwesome1]

A big factor in lv2 paladin 18 sorcerer is that you get wish at lv19. This lets you cast simulacrum which can double your dmg output and on the next day cast a twin true polymorph on. This makes you a monster at high level play. Also booming blade can be quickened or twinned letting you still do 3 smites in a good round, or 1 smite and a twinned disintegrate With a dip into hex blade at lv3 before sorcerer you can also have Eldridge blast and leave str as 15 to just focus on Charisma and Constitution, being fully online by lv4, and a god at lv20

[@CalebAtkins]

I almost expected the "how many paladin levels" section to just keep going. Level 9 3rd level Paladin spells, level 11 Improved Divine Smite, 12 ASI, etc, until a twist ending where Treantmonk concludes to just play a single-class paladin. If Strixhaven content is allowed, then the new backgrounds from that are great, especially Lorehold which gives you access to Spirit Guardians at level 9 on any subclass (and 2 levels earlier than Sorcadin). Really loved your Glory Pally build. I want to go Watchers, Lorehold Student, Custom Lineage, Polearm Master, Crusher, War Caster, then max Charisma. I know staff and shield might be a controversial loadout for historical accuracy reasons, but I want to mount a holy symbol of Helm on the end of a staff and use it to backhand, throat-chop, and push around my foes. Silvery Barbs, Counterspell, and Spirit Guardians on a straight Paladin, yes please. Admittedly, unless you roll ability scores and get lucky, might want more Charisma instead of Crusher.

[@thebitterfig9903]

PAM + Crusher + Quarterstaff seems like a bunch of fun and it’s been rattling around in my mind for a while.

[@chrislieu6757]

I really like this "mastery" series. It really tees up the mechanics and playstyle. I wish you would do one for the sorlock.

[@8684LYFE]

Fantastic video. Really enjoyed the nuanced takes - especially when there's been a lot of "clickbaity" insights nowadays like "why you should never smite", etc. Selfishly too, it's very validating because I had a lot of similar thoughts. Super curious as to what combo you'll go with for the build, but if I had to guess... if we're splitting at 6, Vengeance/Clockwork? A very good mix of offensive and utility capabilities IMO. I'm guessing Vengeance because the channel divinity is highly useful and misty spell comes off as probably the premium Oath spell to have as a melee character.

[@conradkorbol]

I want you to talk about gestalt optimization. I know you only ever to get play these types of games like once, but it would a fun video

[@WarpKL]

If you are going into T2 or T3, level 6 pally is kinda optimized. being a bless bot. Hex dip for EBABRB for ranged DPR. then sorce levels.

[@jugglejunk]

On the when to smite: I would hazard a guess that if they are vulnerable to radiant damage (certain undead) you would also want to smite, it's a bit like rolling a crit. (and god forbid if you do both)

[@Lykon]

There is also Winged Variant Tiefling for flight and Charisma

[@the_purple_mage]

16:09 YOU DON'T KNOW ME! ..... (Okay, it's true, I *WAS* thinking it.)

[@naturalkind5591]

I feel like this video undersells ranged sorcadins. They are especially valuable if the rest of the party is ranged, as often happens with optimized parties. Getting 4x the value out of aura of protection is making your best feature even better. One option for a ranged sorcadin that I often see overlooked is using cantrips like mindsliver, these can be really effective, and given you have exactly 1 feature that requires melee, being within range of all your party members is well worth the tradeoff. You can also throw javalins, which can contribute a surprising amount, and since you are usually already meeting the baseline with bless, that is totally fine.

[@naturalkind5591]

Also, warlock dips take this playstyle and make it by far the best option.

[@J.sh_CDN]

Consider this too! Getting around the "Only able to draw one weapon a round" without a feet, just draw a javelin and use a ranged cantrip first. Then second round, throw the javelin, and then draw and throw a second on. Next round, cantrip and spell and draw a weapon again!

[@darrenromanko2414]

This is a two stepper, one a comment and two a question. It was said in the video that only going two levels in Pali was not enough. I have played two completely different characters that started two levels Pali and were only going to take an Oath (Lev 3) if it worked out story wise. Two radically different outcomes. The one that stayed two levels is a very strong Sorlock who can hold his own if / when melee happens. Most spells are an out of combat solutions / buff / prevention and protection spells. Grated we rolled characters and I started with strong numbers base. But this is lots of fun and blowing smites early and often if you want to deal strong damage with only 2 Pali levels has always felt "in play" extremely strong. I happen to be playing a Tempest Cleric that multi classed into Pali after level 9. Story wise it was good to be knighted (started as a pirate background). This cleric was played like a fighter to the point that several players thought he was a fighter for a while. Anyway fast forward and I took 5 levels to get extra attack. It just sort of happened. My Charisma mod is only +2. After we hit the 2.5 year point it was determined we will play to 20. Is the 6th Pali (vengeance) level worth it for a +2 aura (as the video would suggest this feature is key) or go cleric 10 and ride it the rest of the way? I have been fighting this decision for a little over a month and I am close to level.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

That's a tough one, +2 isn't nearly as dramatic, but then again, those 6-8th level Cleric spells aren't quite as desirable (Heal being an exception). I'm not sure there's a clear winner.

[@agilemind6241]

Honestly, I did the math the other day and even a +4 aura isn't that good against AoE. The best defense against AoE for your party is always to split up and just not get hit at all. The thing the aura is actually good for is protecting your own concentration (since the DC for concentration is generally pretty low but you have to make a lot of them, the difference between 75% chance to save and 85% chance to save is significant).

[@HeatherVerhagen]

I think that a Variant Human Oath of Devotion Paladin would be good here instead of a Warlock dip. I'm playing one with 16 Charisma and 16 Strenght to start. If you invest in Charisma and then use your Charisma modifier to up your chance to hit, you'll have a better chance to crit. Believe you can start using your Charisma modifier at level 3. Personally I choose to add a Strenght saving throw because Strenght and Dex saves are more common and because I wanted a Strenght boost.

[@comfortablegrey]

First, I usually go for a 3 paladin 17 sorcerer sorcadin because it gives access to wish and smite. For this or a 6 paladin I would probably level in order of paladin 2 > sorcerer 5 paladin 6 > sorcerer 14. I find the tiefling variant for winged is often overlooked, as it could make a good choice for this character build. While it does have the heavy armor limitation this means you could buy 13 Str 14 Dex for medium armor, multiclass, and racial +2 to charisma score. This is probably hex blade 1 > paladin 6 > sorcerer 13 however.

[@Gafizal1]

This is a thought provoking vid. Thank you, I like it. It leaves me wishing you'd added a discussion of two handed weapon vs sword and board., and wondering what you'd suggest for ranged options (during levels 1-6) if a player goes straight classed 6 levels paladin out of the gate? Also, wouldn't a Lorehold student background be the best way to put Spirit Guardians on this character (vs the divine soul you mentioned) while also proving some ranged option for early levels? Lastly, why do you discount (by omission from the discussion) the Ancients' Paladin level 7 aura when advocating for variant humans or Custom lineage as those do not grant even spell resistance (ala nerf'ed Yuan ti)? Thanks

[@jiminkpen9750]

Yeah, I'd be interested in the discussion of weapon styles too. Would be good to hear thoughts on them. I don't think suggesting the strixhaven as the way to go is the best idea as they are very setting specific, although pointing it as an option if allowed would make sense.

[@greysunelectric]

Idk, this is my WarloSorcAdin build and I think it looks pretty good: Hexblade 2, Vengeance Oath 8, Divine Soul 8, Hexblade 2. Elven Accuracy @ Paladin 4. Polearm Master @ Paladin 8. Resilient: Constitution @ Sorcerer 4. +2 Cha @ Sorcerer 8. Crusher @ Warlock 4. Str 14 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 20 Hex Weapon Quarterstaff +11 1d6+6 (+ Extra Attack). Polearm Master activates Relentless Avenger. Blind Fighting to ensure Vow of Enimity. Vow of Enimity & Crusher activate Elvish Accuracy. Hexblade's Curse d19-20 activates Crusher. Smite (Harness Divine Power & Convert Sorcery Points) Agonizing Blast Divine Magic < Spirit Guardians Favored by the Gods Eldritch Mind Resilient Constitution Quickened & Twinned Metamagic Magical Guidance Aura of Protection

[@philosopherhobbs]

I think the Paladin 2/Sorcerer X build works well with the Crusher+Booming Blade combo. Losing extra attack doesn't matter quite as much when you get that secondary damage more often. I prefer this build for campaigns going to 10 levels (like curse of strahd) as you get everything good pretty early: Crusher with variant human using a maul, booming blade lvl 2, 19 AC with Defense style at lvl 3, and then just get a bunch more spells for the rest of the campaign. I rolled well for stats though and didn't have to worry about ability increases for ASIs so that always helps.

[@derimperator3847]

so it comes down to crusher+bb+ better and earlier spells (contested by bless) vs. extra attack+polearm master+aura sounds like different characters with very different goals, but both seem good

[@lordbachus]

Combining booming blade with smite as a 2 level paladin dip works well for me.. its 4d8 vs 5d8 extra damage and does not cost 2 smite costs.. works also very well with 18 levels of sword bard, which gives you two attacks and a total of 19 spell levels…. But i stick to sorcerer, as i mostly choose paladin for the extra defense and the smite is just a very nice extra option when in melee..

[@crownlexicon5225]

Fought some grey oozes as a group. Paladin blessed and dodged since every attack weakened his weapons. He left me (druid) and the wizard to attack with spells. We were expecting soothe encounter that day, so it made sense not to use smites then and just bless and stay out of the way.

[@lakewobegonesbest8725]

Would like to see a comparison of gish vs pure hexblades and bladesingers. Seems like they’d make a stronger gish from spell leveling and ASIs.