Mastery Games, and Why I Play Them

[@jokerofspades-xt3bs]

"can we go past the 1000 hour mark" shows factorio footage Ok now I feel called out here

[@yeeterguy9295]

I often struggle deciding on whether I should practice IRL skills like music or spend that time on games. Often, I choose games but only because it's easier and more stimulating. Though in the few times I've chosen music, it always feels much more rewarding. I often see my hrs on games and wondered on whether I should be proud or not.

[@superdude10000]

Oh buddy. I'm excited for you, later in this video.

[@dawnwest3125]

I felt that way. I used to make maps and things within games alot. But games die, work is Lost, new editors are always different. Now i have 500 hours in blender and probably 30 in unity. And those hours are only going up. It's funny in a way. If i learned any modding, I could build for almost anything. Wish I could afford to build stuff irl

[@kylespevak6781]

1,000hrs = mastery Me, with 300hrs on a game that came out last year 😅

[@loldoctor]

It’s not about being easier, it’s just short term vs long term reward. Even games that are heavily grindy still give you an objective metric of progress to scratch your itch of satisfaction, but learning a language or instrument (or other things that are time-intensive and require the same sort of repetition that high-skill games do) are full of plateaus and encouraging breakthroughs followed by humbling experiences. I find when I don’t have a larger goal that I’m motivated to pursue, I turn to games, and when I do have a goal, I’m not as interested in them. It’s easy to look at playing games as the problem and hate myself for wasting time, but that’s not a very good motivator to change. It’s probably more productive to try to find a goal or project rather to work towards than feeling bad about what I’ve done because I don’t have one. But I usually can’t do that and end up feeling bad anyway.

[@pumodi]

I worked on Rocksmith for a brief period of time in 2013. I was part of the Pantera pack and Foo Fighters pack. If you ever played 'Walk' or 'My Hero' you played my levels! I hope you enjoyed the game as a whole.

[@Shellll]

HELL YEAH BROTHER

[@Elreyleon990]

Hello, Superdude I’m 30. I’ve watched many, many videos on KZbin in my time. Many videos I’ve really liked, even enough to hit the like button. Many channels I’ve liked, even enough to subscribe. But never has there been a video or channel which has compelled me to actually leave a comment until yours. This is the first KZbin comment I have ever left in the decades I have been around. I discovered your channel from your “KBU” video, and I was hooked. I feel like watching your videos is a window into a lot of my thoughts that I never really knew how to put into words. In particular, the Q&A 50k video really spoke to me. It’s crazy to have found this channel that goes into almost everything I like in such great detail. All this to say, keep it up! I look forward to your uploads!

[@Elreyleon990]

Also Rocksmith+ is still what I'm absolutely the most mad at Ubisoft about.

[@SpootyBiscuit]

Slight nitpick about Roguelites vs. Roguelikes - Crypt of the NecroDancer has Roguelite aspects *only in single zone runs*. All leaderboards and most achievements require you to play in *All Zones Mode*, which explicitly disables all lobby upgrades. As such, I consider Crypt of the NecroDancer's intended gameplay loop to be a true Roguelike, not Roguelite. Thanks for the shoutout on my Coda runs! Great video!

[@ultimaxkom8728]

Great point.

[@remnas512]

Deep Rock Galactic actually made it so you can go back and replay old seasons at any point now, so it's now less of a traditional "live service" and more just a "new stuff gets added in a patch every now and then" kind of game.

[@starseer8296]

Rock and Stone!

[@superdude10000]

ROCK AND STONE, YEEEAAAAAH

[@Solstice261]

@@remnas512 ROCK AND STONE TO THE BONE

[@nonsensical6289]

Rock and stone forever!

[@rockvalman]

DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?!

[@God-GORDON-Theworstyoutube]

"I can't see the difference between C or B#" - B# and C have the same pitch and sound the same if anyone was wondering

[@ilyan.v]

yea, we name them different depending on context. that's true in the occidental system of music though, accoustically, they aren't the same 😎

[@jakecolon3]

28:10 girl's band cry song spotted! loved that show, hope it gets a second season, the 3d animation was gorgeous

[@mamasitas3566]

I was just thinking about when you'd upload! This is like a miracle to me!!! Love your videos dude

[@sol_ARG]

incredibly glad that you've brought up both CotND speedrunner SpootyBiscuit and mastery-based rhythm games, because that means i can bring up personal favorite rhythm game NotITG, which is kind of like the heavily-modded-Minecraft equivalent of DDR in terms of how wild it gets. it's been something that i've been wanting to get into for a while, both because i'm out of shape and also because funny arrows go brr. excellent video as always! loved being able to point at both Dicey Dungeons and Necrodancer and go "THAT ONE! I KNOW THAT ONE!" as well. i wish there was some kind of True Roguelike mode for Dicey, it itches my brain in exactly the right way. at least i'll probably never beat Witch (she just does NOT click for me)

[@lamMeTV]

Impressed that you are mature enough to know that oyu just dont wanna deal with anger which is totally valid.

[@malevolentmoose]

For the roguelike-roguelite distinction, most people that I've heard would say that unlocking more content, new characters, new mechanics and so on like in The Binding of Isaac or Enter the Gungeon still generally falls under the roguelike category, as long as it doesn't just simply make you stronger like the mirror in Hades. Part of the reason for it is that if you say that any unlockables that affect gameplay make the game a roguelike, then there would be almost no roguelike games, especially among the relatively young games that have infinitely more technical possibilities than Rogue did back in the day. I would say separating them based on whether there is a progression system or only a simple unlock system is much more important and relevant for the average player in most cases, largely just because that's what generally distinguishes more "hardcore" games like The Binding of Isaac (that arguably inherit much more of the spirit of Rogue) from somewhat more casual ones like Hades (that are intended to be more accessible to the general audience, though still can provide optional challenges). The goal of unlockables in games is generally to provide more variety as the game progresses without overwhelming the player with options early on, which is especially apparent with something like new items in Enter the Gundeon, and new characters in Dicey Dungeons. Even the ones that are noticeably stronger than other characters are almost always locked behind appropriately difficult content and game progression. Also, while on average stronger, they usually also bring new interesting options and new challenges to the table, which necessitates to sometimes quite literally relearn parts of the game. So yeah, that's my view, influenced partly by a few video essays: both roguelike and roguelites generally have unlockables that provide variety, but only roguelites have progression systems that explicitly make you stronger. Extra note: knowledge-based "unlockables" can also be a thing - stuff that is actually accessible from the very beginning, but the chances of finding it by chance is slim or basically zero. That could include things like secret rooms, which in some games can actually be pretty easy to find once you know how they generate. Problem is, I don't know an example of good knowledge-based unlocks in roguelikes that aren't just the first thing to be mentioned in a beginner's guide.

Slice & Dice is a good example of a game that's heavy on unlocks, but firmly places itself in the "roguelike" camp. The in-game help specifically points out that unlocks aren't generally _stronger_, they're just more complex. Adding hundreds of unlockable things dilutes the pool, which in fact makes it harder to get exactly what you want and execute a broken combo.

[@hastur2905]

About that last paragraph- Have you heard of Noita? It's basically all knowledge unlocks

[@frido7939]

omg slice and dice mentioned, all hail sorcerer and prince can go to hell

@@frido7939 honestly prince just wants everyone to get along. Captain on the other hand, now there's a guy who knows how to get stuff done

[@supersonicfan6404]

“Knowledge-based unlocks” fits Noita to a T… that game is so inscrutable at first, but hides so many secrets to be discovered and tricks to find…

[@lucasmelo9399]

seeing you mention kingdom hearts chain of memories as a deckbuilder has immediately rewired my brain and made me download it to give it another chance (I'm a KH fan but never bothered to actually get past the first hour of the game), your essays are awesome btw!

[@LukaLukaLukaOfficial2]

Nice video mister Dude :) Crypt of the Necrodancer has been my comfort game for the past 3 months or so and as a trophy hunter on Playstation I refuse to stop playing until I get all the achievements lol. The crazy part is every time I play I feel like I learn something new, the enemies interact with each other in such a unique way that causes you to improvise (and in term learn and improve) time and time again. Again great video dude, I really enjoyed it

[@brennanclement8582]

Great video as always! Re: roguelike vs roguelite, I think a more useful distinction rather than progression vs no-progression would be lateral progression vs vertical progression. Unlocking new guns in Gungeon or a new character in Slay the Spire doesn't meaningfully impact your ability to make it farther in the game - you still encounter the same number of chests in Gungeon and the same number of choice nodes in StS. Compare that to something like Hades where you get permanent buffs like more lives per run. Will definitely check out Dicey Dungeon, looks fun! StS frontloaded its progression a lot so I got burnt out toward the end, something shorter might be more up my speed. That's one of the reasons I loved Inscryption so much. As someone who does actively play a number of live service games (WoW, Marvel Snap, Magic Arena, and The Finals) I actually think The Finals is executed flawlessly. It gives complete access to every gameplay mechanic for free. It has a robust cosmetics shop, but also gives away plenty of awesome cosmetics for free too. The seasons are entirely cosmetic so you aren't missing out on any gameplay like raids in WoW or standard metas in Magic, and since there are so many great cosmetics it's not a big deal to miss some. There have been times when those other games have felt like a chore, but never with The Finals. That's a lot already so I'll stop there lol but keep up the great work!

[@Arewitheyes]

algorithm sent me here! great video so far and I'm really enjoying your discussion of this "genre" of game (I feel like each person has their own mastery games so its hard to call it a genre lol). idk if you talk about it here (just started the vid oops) but the concept of "striving gameplay" as discussed by CT Nguyen is what I always thing about when playing games like Inertial Drift and Driftwood - games that I usua;;y wouldn't play but, nonetheless, become obsessed with getting better at. great vid and excited to watch the rest of it :D

I'm glad you brought up fighting games specifically for me, so that I don't have to write my usual screed telling you to get into fighting games.

[@Belbecat]

Lol nice subtle ending. It's always a good day when someone reminds the world that Dicey and Necrodancer still exists and deserve more attention. Just wish I didn't suck at them so bad...

[@jokerofspades-xt3bs]

I really don't mean to nitpick a very specific part of the video but as a Harvest Moon fan I must correct the mistake. At 1:25 you mention how Stardew Valley is what inspired all of these farming games on Nintendo Directs when in reality about half of them are remakes of the Harvest Moon games so that they can be accessed on modern hardware, I would still rather play the original versions though.

[@faultysalty8840]

this was an awesome video, i normally don't comment on videos i enjoy but this one was really good, Additionally, I don't really watch many videos longer than 30-40 minutes without expecting a timesink because well, a lot of videos just aren't the best at keeping a strong pace throughout the entire video! When I clicked this video I didn't even notice how long it was because the title and thumbnail caught me, and I didn't even notice how long the video was till about 30 minutes in. This was really an awesome video!!

[@seanaugagnon6383]

"mastery games" I have also searched for a term for that type of game and you just nailed it. I'm going to use it.

[@ianpfender8113]

As a huge rougelike/lite fan myself I have absolutely loved the feeling of constant improvement and mastery with ever scaling difficulty I could get lost in those for hours and you are so right the companionship they provide always being there. Great video as always mate. ❤

[@cllaay]

Love the sentiment! I did research into “recovery & leisure” activities for a presentation a while back, and unintuitively it turns out that the combination of “challenging” and “familiar” is the most restorative. In the comparison of Easy to Challenging and Unfamiliar to Familiar. Btw just started dicey dungeons as the video ended!

[@autronic9306]

"mechanically precise challenges" me when i open doom eternal, DMC5 or sekiro:

[@Itstwistedroots]

Rogue-likes have saved this hobby of mine

[@mathieu6441]

Crypt of the necrodancer looks very hard but very cool. Love your videos !

[@Omegamorphosis]

Although some wouldn’t call them ‘mastery games’ exactly, as someone who’s been playing Dark Souls since 2013, FromSoft’s titles have genuinely become ‘comfort food’ for my brain. It’s funny how mastering something can be so relaxing.

[@Aviplotbunny]

This video just gave me good vibes all around. Great time for my afternoon

[@coldfanta4963]

This video convinced me to get Dicey Dungeons! Favorite character (and hardest) is definitely the Witch. It's hard to get a good build going but once you find it, it WORKS

[@coldfanta4963]

Also I can't believe you mentioned two games with Chipzel and FamilyJules in it in some capacity

[@yoshitsune5691]

Street fighter (fighting games in general ) has been my forever game/genre for like 10 plus years now. Even to this day people are still finding cool shit in old fighting games. Omg 24mins in, i didn’t expect fighting games to get a shout out.

[@ianevans9137]

Tony Hawks 1+2 remastered and steep are my mastery games. They aren’t perfect, but you can always boot them up and try to find a new perfect line.

[@inblooks]

necrodancer is a roguelike if you only play all zones mode, which i prefer to do 😳 i feel like the roguelite aspects of zone/item/heart progression serves more as a traditional path for other gamers because of its difficulty!

[@inblooks]

just finished the video, great work!! well written, well edited.. subscribed!! ❤

[@TheBalloonBob]

Sick video as always my friend

[@mrrodript]

HearingcBaise at 31:20 made me so excited bro, i love his stuff souch

[@andyglovergames]

It sucks that so many games want to reel the player into being a perpetual participant, even financially. There's some great games that I'm sure many players wish would steer away from this model. While I settle into one game from time to time, I like to hop to different ones frequently. I wouldn't mind seeing more "lo-fi" experiences, un-tethered from the live-service archetype that has so unfortunately become the status quo. Thanks for laying out some options, and I hope you're right that some change is on the horizon. Really enjoyed the video, subscribed!!

[@Rugerfred]

The Final's is really good.

[@Rugerfred]

Also, two things: I bought Splatoon 3 in the past thanks to your video. I'm very grateful for that suggestion! The second thing is a mobile game suggestion that definitely fits the "mastery games" genre: Slice & Dice. You'll love it. It's also great in fact that it lacks ads or in-app purchases.

[@Rugerfred]

Also, if you're looking for a 10.000+ hours game, look at the Tactical Nexus rabbit hole.

[@fitzciaran]

Nice vid, I've seen so many recommendations for dicey dungeon but none that gave half as good an idea of what it was like as you! For crypt I think it's the perfect style of modern rougelike, the main mode is not progression based but separate mini modes are - similar to shortcuts with spelunky. Right from first boot you can play the "proper" game in its final and only form - but you can unlock "training"/"helper" modes that are separate and help you learn about the main game, later levels, bosses etc. I love crypt, beating the game with monk felt AMAZING. But i don't know if I'll be able to full complete the game ever.

[@radiobe4179]

I love that all deck builders kind of enhance your general deck building skills. I went from Hearthstone to Slay the Spire and beyond, and I always feel that I have kind of a breezy time getting accustumed to the particular meta game of the title...

[@Phillz91]

As someone who recently got into Clone Hero, PDP is making a new Rockband style guitar (The Riffmaster, Xbox version) that works on PC with only a single piece of software needed. It's not cheap, but comparable to a decent condition old plastic guitar and of decent build quality. There is also YARG, since Clone Hero is no longer being developed which has a Rockband aesthetic to it and works with all the same songs. I also have electronic drums hooked up t my PC and have been having a blast.

[@blueB0wser]

It's appropriate you chose Halo Reach at 36:13, because 343 is releasing the Operator helmet soon. Not sure if it's a microtransaction or not, but I believe it is.

[@terminalSloth]

In the case of isaac i have replayed the progresion multiple times and the game is easier with fewer unlocks, and even if you unlock stronger items you also unlock way more crappy ones, so the game kind of gets harder and easier at the same time

[@ddrzk_]

man i haven't finished the video yet it's 7am after a night shift but damn i understand what you mean by mastery games. they are indeed easy to get into, and are hard to master, but in the middle of it lies just having fun casually playing the game. and that is really hard sometimes depending on the game. and the perception of mastery is going to change together with your skill. I'll probably add a reply with some games and tell something about how many of the popular games I'd call mastery games and how approaching them as mastery games can really change the experience in a positive way

[@ddrzk_]

Okay. if learning a game is like learning a language then it's an amazing mastery game. the fun part of learning a language is to eventually start using it. same with those games. learning a game world's rules then just being in this world doing what a game has to offer. like playing dota or league, just being there knowing what you and your opponents can do and taking actions accordingly. or my brother pretty much maining random character in mortal combat. or me navigating the map in ddnet kog keeping in mind all the grappling hook physics. big part of those type of games are mechanical games. pushing buttons to the rhythm in taiko, etterna or osu mania is the most fun i ever had. typing is also a lot of fun for me though i only recently started learning it properly. i wouldn't really call Tetris a mechanical game but damn i spent a lot of time playing it and there is a lot to learn and using what you've learned is so fun. some simple shooters like csgo deathmatch I'd also consider mechanical. the games I'd recommend are osu mania or any other vsrg, mania is just simple to get started. ddnet is a really unpopular co-op puzzle platformer with the best player interaction I've seen in such games, though you'll need someone to teach it to you and show all the gamemodes. tetris is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. i only realized after this video that i play overwatch as a mastery game. just being in that world following arbitrary objectives for the sake of being there playing by that world's rules that i learned. i was playing apex on my friend's account while he's in another city and it was the same, just doing things i was unfamiliar with before that, like the movement or this game's guns.

[@darkmatter7589]

are you seriously using footage of story of season as stardew-like lol? story of season is literally harvest moon which is the game stardew took inspiration from, they just change the name cause they lose the right for the harvest moon name

[@ultimaxkom8728]

Not just inspiration, as one can say it's the reason. It's the prime example of spiritual successors. The _"Fine, I'll do it myself"_ phrase reified.

[@anotherKyle]

"with no fixed endpoint like tetris" *inhales* well AKSCHUALLY

[@ZombieMagnum]

My favorite mastery game might be trials fusion (2014). Its physics and controls are so nuanced that you will easily spend 1000+ hours climbing through the community made „ninja levels“ 1-8. Despite being a „useless skill“, there‘s little more satisfying than managing to do something in a video game that almost noone else has.

[@Canarye]

i love turning into the bear dice as the thief

[@LemonMori]

1:28 showing Story of Seasons here just breaks my heart

[@Forbe.]

Came for the cool games, stayed for the existential dread of the modern videogame era

[@thealdoc]

That piano you added in the last section i thought was coming from one of my neighbors' apartments, i just went "who the fuck bought a piano"

[@gmg9010]

I remember finding TWRP a few years back but was only into the heaviest chuggiest music back then so now I’ll check them out.

[@thatonekarissa]

wanted to pop in and say i picked up dicey dungeons because of this video, and it’s a TONNNN of fun!! thanks so much for the recommendation. i was anti rougelike deck builders because they seemed so complicated, but now i have a handle on the basics of the genre. catch me playing uhhhh idk slay the spire next?? (i can’t remember if slay the spire is a member of the genre just insert a different one if im wrong LOL)

[@Yurxfull]

Really like it!!! Thanks!

[@LedZeppeli]

Another great video. I’m going to continue to shill your channel to my friends until you reach 1,000,000 subs at which point I’ll start complaining that ‘they just don’t have the soul they used to’ in the vaguest way possible. P.S. Thanks, I’m going to have black magic woman stuck in my head for the rest of the day now.

[@deerecho5872]

OH MY GOD ANOTHER DICEY DUNGEONS ENJOYER

[@DiamondRocket13]

Ooh, man, I need to gamify piano in some way. I really want to pick it up again but I struggle with the more monotonous parts of practice. Regardless, fantastic video, looking forward to more!

[@DaMedicWhoSezNi]

I love Happiness of the Dead and am glad you do, too.

[@yahavlivni3002]

I have a pretty funny perspective on the mastery games "genre" because for me the brain-worm has always been puzzle games and sure brainy rougelikes scratch that itch (I have a frankly unhealthy amount of hours on slay the spire and have gotten eternal one on multiple devices) but nothing does it for me like puzzle games. Now I hear you ask but "puzzle games are inherently finite* how could you keep improving and mastering them?" and you'd be sorta right and this is where my rocksmith comes in. For me it was mathematics, the playing portal 1 when you're 8 (before I knew english even) to math major giga nerd pipeline is real and scary and I urge you to join me. P.S I wish I was any good at rhythm games crypt speaks to me so much but I just can't seem to ever get good muscle memory in no matter how or how much I practice *there are some pretty great randomly generated puzzle games (I'm looking at you witness archipelago randomizer) but they are just as well limited by their finite mechanics

[@Bluesine_R]

I think there's one genre of games that are kind of missing from this video and are clear mastery games, and a sister genre for fighting games: bullet hell shmups. Games like Ikaruga, DoDonPachi, Radiant Silvergun, Ketsui, ZeroRanger, Mushihimesama etc. are short games (25-45 minutes), but many of them can be played for hundreds, if not thousands of hours. These games are all about skill mastery and deliberate practice. The first goal of many of these games is to clear the whole game with one credit (aka a 1CC), which can take tens of hours to achieve. After that, some of these games have a second loop, which is much harder than the first, and getting a 2-loop 1CC, or a 2-All, can take hundreds of hours of practice. On top of even that, most of these games have scoring systems that make the game even more difficult, and that is what the player can focus on once getting a 1CC is easy for them. It's truly impressive how deep these games are despite being short and looking relatively simple on the surface.

[@paulm394]

I usually hate having to spend over 10-20 hours to feel like I understand mechanics deeply but SIFU MAN SHIT GOT ME

[@spoofiehonk]

just a tidbit cus i think its interesting: if i recall correctly hades is not procedurally generated, the entire map is drawn first. it's touched on in the noclip documentary on hades' development :3

[@Hunterofyeets]

Oh god I immediately recognized the first song. Octo Expansion has put trauma in me.

[@CubesAndPortals]

fyi THE FINALS is a cut above the rest, nothing leaves the store (it's all still available in the contestants menu) & the BP levels up *fast*. Since all the contracts stack up over the season duration, and they 10x the XP for the last couple weeks, you only need like 2-3 hours at the end of the season to complete the BP. Don't let the look of FOMO stop you from having a good time with it.

[@zojirushi1]

Enter the gungeon rng always gives me the same few bosses I’ve won against already.

[@AeneasZed]

CotND is both a rougelite and a rougelike the upgrades are all active when playing all zones the only thing you unlock are other charaters if you only play all zones

[@terminalSloth]

At this point i get angry when someone ask me to play either a live service game or one of those battle pass games, these games kind of build a cult of followers who put a ton of money in their games that i dont really feel comfortable with interacting (also adhd doesnt help) and i would rather play a game that either offers dlcs with optional expansions but well put together or are just one purchase

[@idkwhattoputhere8675]

Hey man this review really sung to my soul. I love roguelikes and lites and they’re my comfort games as well, after growing up with gungeon and dead cells. Im still completing dicey dungeons though lol (the witch is pretty difficult). I recently got back into streets of rogue, and i think you should check it out.

[@theinternetofficer6594]

im glad that drg has let u come back to battle passes that u missed. now its a lot less like a season pass and more like reward tracks that u can toggle to give u rewards for playing. just like a regular game that gives u stuff the more u play

[@NihongoWakannai]

16:50 I disagree that the binding of isaac is a roguelite. Roguelite isn't about unlockables, it's about unlockable PROGRESSION. The binding of isaac unlocks sidegrades not upgrades so it's still a roguelike. That's the key difference because in a roguelite, completing the game is inevitable because your character gets stronger whereas in a roguelike the ONLY way to win is by improving your skill as a player. The unlocks in BoI can make the game *harder* to beat if anything because it's more difficult to get a strong build going. I think this is the best way to distinguish them because the actual gameplay experience is different. The binding of isaac still has the same core gameplay experience as a roguelike with no upgrades, the game just becomes more varied as you play and it gives people motivation to do more runs, but ultimately the only way to win is with improved player skill. That's the core difference between lite and like.

[@StarWagi]

I play mostly forever games. Even outside video games. Beat Saber, Guilty Gear, Splatoon, Rivals of Aether, and Yu-gi-oh are currently my thing, but given before that i put 10k hours into Destiny 2 this has been a lifelong preference

[@gmg9010]

I’m personally a fan of Loop Hero as a game I can just hop right into and easily play. Have I beat the first boss no not at all but I’m still having fun.

[@zaidhayder1999]

superdude your taste in roguelikes is very similar to mine! what are your top 10 roguelikes/lites? i would love to know

[@superdude10000]

Jesus, 10? 10 sounds hard... 1. Enter the Gungeon 2. Crypt of the Necrodancer 3. Darkest Dungeon. I have a tattoo of it and everything 4. DUSKERS. A rogue-like horror game where you control robots from the command line. It rules. 5. Inscryption: Kaycee's Mod. Inscryption is just good in general, but Kaycee's mod makes the game replayable, and GOD that's what I wanted when I beat Inscryption, MORE OF IT 6. FTL. Simple and sweet, UNTIL YOU GET TO THE END and discover you suck ass and you will never beat this game 7. Ultrakill. Fuck yeah. 8. Prey: Mooncrash. Inspired use of Prey 2018's systems. It's like, "duh! Of COURSE this system works in a rogue game. It's so obvious in hindsight!" 9. Hades. Despite not even being five years old, we've already seen this game shift how we write narrative in Rogue-style games. It has to be on here somewhere. 10. Backpack Hero. Made a video on it; the design is perfectly considered towards the central goal of inventory management. Honorable mentions in order of how recently I played them: Balatro One Step from Eden Roboquest Shovel Knight Dig Into the Breach Deathloop (does this count? It should) Noita Bullets Per Minute: Metal Hellsinger did basically everything it did better, but BPM came first, and I played it before Hellsinger was even announced, so I want to give it its flowers. & Going Under, a game I really REALLY liked that just... didn't take off, unfortunately. Sometimes a game fails purely based off of a lack of luck, and that's a shame, but that's life.

[@yeetyeet486]

bro NEEEEEDS to play Devil Daggers & Hyper Demon, both by the same developer, some of the BEST Mastery Games I´ve played, so far I have only "finished" Devil Daggers, took me 76 hours, which might not sound like a lot, until you realize there is only 1 level, which is basically the same every time (not really but kinda) trust me, you will (probably) love them, Hyper Demon is kicking my ass

[@lucamayhem]

I love necrodancer, its one of my favourite rougelikes

[@conductorfishy]

DRG is how a live service game probably should be, I mean, to their full ability they have eradicated fomo, my only issue is the overclock grind.

[@tametyrannusalves3817]

Hope you find interest in Tangledeep. I need to play more Necrodancer.

[@GreetedSaucer93]

Man... had I known about rocksmith 2014 a year ago, I would've bought it because seeing this video makes me want to learn an instrument. A shame a cd key (that is not guaranteed to work) costs hundreds of dollars now...

[@superdude10000]

There are other, seeeecret ways to play it, my friend! You can ask around, if you're persistent, and someone can help you out.

[@snore178]

0:09 Why can I never escape Guilty Gear I've been trying to watch videos without it But it's just EVERYWHERE

[@superdude10000]

It definitely doesn't come up in the video later I swear :)

[@Doodoovessel]

Imagine trying to get all achievements in crypt of the NecroDancer, only legends have it. 🗿

[@HazyDefender98]

Don't know if you've ever played Vampire Survivors but I feel like that's a mastery game you'd enjoy a lot.

[@kwuzie2265]

fuckin love crypt of the necrodancer

[@5000_People]

I think Isaac is an interesting example of the roguelike/roguelite dichotomy. I have played 1300hrs of rebirth and 450 hours of original, and the vast majority of that time has been while unlocking things, meta progression included, but does Isaac become a roguelike once everything is unlocked? Anyway some of isaac's unlocks make the game harder, or unlock an item that isn't worth picking up, and that negative feedback is kind of the opposite of what roguelites are considered to be. Out of game progression is what happens when you beat mom and unlock the womb, but it's progression that puts another barrier in your face like it or not. I feel like someone adding more steps to the top of a climb doesn't count as progression from the perspective of someone walking up a hill. When we meaningfully call hades or rogue legacy a roguelite, I think what we mean to say is that victory is inevitable. Your power level increases, the game's does not (until you tell it to for hades, until you finish the game for rogue legacy). Strict upgrades, permanent buffs etc, those are more roguelite than isaac usually is (though actually my own point is bad here because there are permanent buffs for some characters from some unlocks, so in some aspects of the game you're 100% correct, but out of 637 unlocks, only 20ish or so are permanent buffs to base characters). Generally though I think Isaac and Slay the spire are considered more roguelike than roguelite because they get harder as they get easier through expanded choices, rather than 'you now do 50% more damage every run'

[@ElbyHere]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to be on my deathbed with my only regret being that I wasn't able to beat Necrodancer as Aria.

[@to_the_ashes7393]

31:35 I'm hearing that mcbaise.

[@J777F]

Is there a way to play rocksmith besides buying a subscription or paying 300$ for a steam key?

[@superdude10000]

Unfortunately, there is no legal way to do it.

[@bencesarvari2235]

I often feel like I quit mastery games so early. Before unlocking everything. Because the progression curve gets kinda slow at the end and it requires persistence to stay in the game and I just decide that it's not worth it after investing a shitton of hours in the first few days. Happened with Balatro, The Binding of Isaac, Dicey Dungeons, Neon White etc. Often I burn myself out and look for something else. I remember all these games fondly but I'm always thinking about what would it be lile if I stuck it out longer. It is hard for me to get back into them when I havent played in ages and I have other games I also want to try.

[@Supershadow301]

Eh I feel like calling Necrodancer a rogue-lite and Dicey Dungeon a rogue-like is a bit of a disservice. As long as you disregard the rhythm mechanics, Necrodancer sticks really close to the "Berlin Interpretation" (nerds attempting to define what is a roguelike and what isn't): it's a turn-based, grid-based, movement-based hack'n'slash game with permadeath, procedurally generated levels and no unlocks in its main mode, and arguably no differing gamemodes since everything except the menus happen in the game engine, making it arguably _very_ close to Rogue mechanically, compared to a randomized deckbuilder RPG with dice throws. Then again, the Berlin Interpretation was made by nerds 20 years ago so take it with a saltshaker... The game's phenomenal btw i got almost 600 hours on it and still haven't beaten Aria all zones

[@BRamz_121]

On the front of Rogue lite vs like I think your distinction of "meta-progression" is the simplest way to communicate the difference without missing the forest for the trees so to speak. I personally put a bit more weight on the perspective and graphics, and there's a definite trend towards less punishing, more upgradable game design, unless you look at games like Cogmind that are totally unapologetic in their brutality. On the front of Unions being the answer to the big layoffs, I've personally seen Unions as a poor alternative to ethical employment, and often create more problems than they claim to solve. But ethics is a VERY deep rabbit hole that society seems to be more interested in filling in rather than exploring; so I won't try in a text based form like a KZbin comment.

[@sonphan2188]

Yippi a new superdude vid

[@zojirushi1]

Then play slay the spire. Between base game, mods like downfall (a massive expansion to play as the bosses/enemies), pack master, robot space explorer, other character mods, etc. there’s just so much replay-ability to offer. It takes time mastering each characters play style, combos, deck, cards, decisions. Also ascension 1-20 adding challenges each time making it harder. Daily climb. Achievements.

[@lamMeTV]

The FInals does not have a good idea. Its just a BR more sane for an oversaturated market. Its gunplay is actually well made

[@DUHvendra]

Finals mentioned!

[@youraverageddnerd1843]

Personally, I consider Hades a Lite and TBoI a Like. Too me, the difference is that, while yes unlocking items is a form of progression, you still start every run in the same position(with a few exceptions that I view as minor enough to skate by.)

[@youraverageddnerd1843]

Fundamentally, the runs don't get easier because you have more health or abilities or stats. They get easier when you get better at the game, items or no.

[@readyplayerthree3]

^~^ Necrodancer my beloved!! Probably the mastery game I'm best at and even then I haven't even UNLOCKED Coda yet.... 😭 I have beat every other character though!!

[@qromaxwell6548]

Have you played Returnal? highly recommend after seeing your taste

[@sig_natural]

nice job sneaking the pegging song in there

[@chomperwithcheesecake]

NecroDancer is a rough liKe because of how even though you can purchase new items with diamonds, none of that progression actually changes what happens in all zone mode. Diamonds have zero affect on all zone mode and all char runs, and a few characters and like 90% of achievements are locked behind all zone mode runs so rougelike imo

[@Kingminos09]

*Shows Balatro after dicey dungeons as example of harder mastery game* Me-who has been non stop playing it for three days: Real

[@Solstice261]

I am so disappointed the guitar one no longer exists, sounds like just the thing I need, oh well I do acustic so unless my guitar has a hidden input cable, I wouldn't have been able to do much

[@superdude10000]

Actually, if you have a mic, you can set it to listen, so you could use an acoustic on the game... I dunno why I said anything, honestly, it cant be purchased. If only you could FIND A WAY to play it..

[@Solstice261]

@@superdude10000 thanks, I am sure, a way will appear

[@themultiverse5447]

My philosophy is the more fun a game is the less I should play it.

[@azulesmalls5514]

On crypt. I have beaten all the zones individually as Aria... Too bad I have beaten all the other story mode characters in All Zones mode and really want to do it with Aria too :(