8x10" B&W Contact Prints - Large Format Friday

[@petermathes2472]

That safe light turning on and the other light turning off was oddly satisfying.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Peter there are a lot of sounds like this in the large format and darkroom process that are like that. Will need to share more of these with folks!

[@jimwlouavl]

In theory, seeing an image render on a computer screen should have some of this magic. In practice, watching a great photograph emerge in the developer is an epiphany. This video is ASMR for a photographer.

[@MatMarrash]

I agree Jim, there's definitely a disconnect when not seeing it in-person. Fortunately, the magic is still very much alive in the darkroom, chemical smells included!

[@MichaelLloyd]

Man... the only wet printing I've done (not counting back when I was 9 or 10 (1967 / 1968) and a 5-ish years ago (Pt/Pd). That was inspiring.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Michael! Contact prints have a magic to them and having them in 8x10" size doesn't hurt. ;)

[@brineb58]

Your enthusiasm is infective!!!

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Brian, it's all the magic of the darkroom! :)

[@PHILIPBOVEY]

The person who ordered the contact prints will indeed be pleased, and delighted with your choice of which negatives to print!

[@MatMarrash]

I can't believe I found the original negatives for these so quickly! Now to get them flattened and ready to ship. Cheers!

[@JamieMPhoto]

Ohh, do I ever miss the dark room. Motivation for making one happen. 😎

[@MatMarrash]

It's so much fun, plus you have all those nice Ferrania P30 negatives which would print beautifully!

[@JamieMPhoto]

@@MatMarrash Thank you!! mmm ... I hope they can get that out in large format at some point, too.

[@nickfanzo]

Do it

[@YTGerry1]

Great video. One thing I learned in my HS graphic arts class years ago was when developing a print tilt the tray to the right, then tilt up, tilt it left, tilt it down and then tilt it right again and repeat. This ensures that the developer coats the paper evenly.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Gerry, your graphic arts class taught you right! Gotta keep that print moving randomly in the tray for even development. Cheers!

[@BillyHopscotch]

Do I want more of this content? Yes, 100%. LFF has been a huge inspiration over the last few weeks since Tariq Tarey pointed me over here. Love what you do!

[@MatMarrash]

William thanks for the comment and I'm going to have to hang out with Tariq again sometime soon. He's the man!

[@BillyHopscotch]

@@MatMarrash he told me to say hi for him 😂 when the pandemic eases it's my dream to assist one or both of you on a shoot.

[@TreyPiepmeier]

I really enjoy your enthusiasm when you see the results!

[@MatMarrash]

Over a decade in and it's still magic when I turn on the darkroom lights! :)

[@dongxu2059]

Hey , didnt expect to see a new episode today. Cool stuffs

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks and Happy New Year!

[@jaytayag810]

This video is exactly what I have been looking for! Thank you and Happy New Year, Mat!

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Jay and Happy New Year to you as well!

[@chickenitsa]

Happy New Year, Mat, and thanks for giving more attention to the darkroom side of analog photography; this is especially important for beginners of those who are curious or even reluctant about starting. I'd say the majority of anaolo/large format videos on youtube deal with the 'picture-taking' side of things and just jump to showing the resulting print(s), so I hope you're part of a good trend.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Christopher, it's something I want to do more of, for sure. Knowing what it takes to put together these videos, I'm not surprised the printing process gets glossed over. Lots of extra effort to incorporate the long process. Here's to more darkroom in 2021!

[@chickenitsa]

@@MatMarrash : Well, yes.. considering the extra work of FILMING the videos themselves, extra kudos. Eons ago, I was a tech rep for the U.S. distributor of the Durst (amateur) enlargers, so I did color printing seminars and tons of demos in camera stores (on the counter tops!) and at conventions all over the U.S. . I'm not telling you this to "brag", but to qualify my opinion when I tell you that you're doing a good job. So please take solace in that .. and continue!

[@terrywbreedlove]

2021 is already starting great love the darkroom

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Terry, Happy New Year!

[@laurencegoldman4639]

Thanks. Makes me want to get an 8X10 View and do the whole thing. I grew up in the darkroom. Had an Omega D-2. Learned to an extent Angel Adams Zone system, which really includes the darkroom. 8X10 view camera film photographs give best IQ period over ANY other format, especially overEVERY single digital camera whether Leica, $50000 medium format digital or anything else.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Laurence, if you have the chance you should give it a go! Contact printing and IQ are just a few of the reasons I still think it's the "perfect format"!

[@michaelsherck5099]

Midwest Photo? Shoot -- it's your fault I got addicted to large format 25-ish years ago. I got a small bonus from work and called, I think it was Jim, to see whether he had a camera, lens and a couple of film holders real, real cheap. He put me on hold for a couple of minutes and came back with an old wooden Ansco 5x7 camera, an Ilex Paragon 7 1/2 inch focal length lens in a working Ilex shutter and two 5x7 film holders. It's been one heck of a ride ever since. I sewed a focusing cloth one evening while watching TV and developed film and made contact prints in the smaller of the two bathrooms in our rental house. I use 4x5 more often these days but 5x7 is my first love and I still contact print them today. Thanks to all of you at Midwest Photo for so many wondrous happy years! (Wife is starting to get used to it!)

[@MatMarrash]

Hey Michael, I remember you from Photostock and APUG NE OH meetups! Let me know if you're ever in Columbus. Jim's still here at Midwest Photo being the encyclopedia of LF knowledge he's always been!

[@nickfanzo]

Loving that tree image

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks! :)

[@olitography]

Happy new year Mat, keep wet printing alive.

[@MatMarrash]

Thank you sir! Nothing like getting hands-on in the darkroom. I'll keep it going as long as I possibly can!

[@davidottman9501]

Holiday or not, Mat, you're on the job. Kudos! And another great video. Just yesterday I processed my first contact prints. They're 4x5, but still very satisfying. It's largely your inspiration that convinced me to finally start chemical printing. Good timing!

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks David, glad to hear you're enjoying contact prints. They're great in all formats! Any enlarging or alt process in your future?

[@davidottman9501]

@@MatMarrash Alt process, highly likely, starting with cyanotype. Carbon printing looks fascinating too, but I'll need more education. Enlarging, I'd really like to but it's not realistic at my home bath/dark room. Hmm, maybe rental space is available nearby, might have to check into that. And have to make more negatives worth printing! Thanks!

[@kenklontz1945]

A great start of the year 😎

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Ken, Happy New Year!

[@RandyMoe]

Good!

[@ricklesquier3147]

Happy New Year Matt! Enjoyed the darkroom episode. I miss working in the Darkroom but have no place to do it at this time. Hopefully I will again some day!

[@MatMarrash]

Happy New Year Rick, hopefully you'll have a chance to get in some darkroom time soon!

[@FilmGarrett]

Thanks for this video and the tape trick. I’ve been dragging my feet on finally doing this with my “new” contact print frame.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Garrett! When taping off glass, be sure to use a low adhesive masking tape to preserve the glass, you may need a few layers.

[@philipdahl9001]

Great video, I would definitely like to see more of your darkroom techniques! Thanks!

[@MatMarrash]

Thank you Philip! Will do!

[@AnaloguePT]

Happy new year! nice works done in a well setup darkroom.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks and a Happy New Year to you as well!

[@randomgrenad346]

Happy New Years Mat!

[@MatMarrash]

Happy new year!

[@AlexLuyckxPhoto]

Great episode! Got big plans on doing more prints this year also with an LF project in the spring/summer/fall on local railroad history!

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Alex your constant shooting, printing, and reviewing is an inspiration!

[@ScottWalton]

Hey Mat! Happy New Year! Man did I spend a lot of time at MPX when I lived and worked in Columbus. I got so much gear from there. And I remember Jim as being the LF guy. Cool to read he’s still there. I had the LPL with the VCCE head in my darkroom here. What a great machine. Anyway, great to see your darkroom location there. Take care.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Scott! The only thing I wish this space had is more square footage. A few more feet and we could get an 8x10 enlarger in here! ;)

[@ScottWalton]

@@MatMarrash That would be nice for sure. I actually got an 8x10 from MPX years ago and used it for a while but I really wanted to be able to make enlargements and the studio where I worked (which I previously told you about) didn't have an 8x10 enlarger so I sold it back to MPX and stuck with 4x5. Those 8x10s really make lovely contact prints though!

[@islandbyfilm]

Great Video Matt

[@MatMarrash]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@MichaelWellman1955]

Great way to start the new year. Always love seeing how others work in the darkroom. I never thought about using 11x14 paper for my 8x10 contacts. I'll have to give that a try. The one thing you didn't talk about was the dry down affect. I have had some great looking prints come out of the wash only to be disappointed later after they dried. To me the print is finished till it's toned. Have you done a show on toning and the different methods of toning? I especially enjoy split toning.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Michael, I haven't mentioned dry down because I can't precisely measure its impact on my prints. I know it happens, but to varying degrees. For example, in that session the second print seems to show it more than the first, slightly darker print. Toning I never got into too deeply; pretty much only RST for finished fiber prints.

[@steveweston5902]

Didn't expect a video today but good to see. Interesting to see the darkroom work and getting a view of the LPL enlarger. I have been looking at one with a view to purchasing one later on. That head seems to be like rocking horse poo, certainly in the UK. HNY Matt.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks for the comment Steve. The advice I always offer when looking at an enlarger is don't buy one new, and make sure it has all the parts you need before purchasing. Sourcing parts after the fact is always harder with darkroom gear since most aren't made new.

[@enderstein]

Hi! How did you make the contact negative? Is it done with inkjet printer on transparent paper?

[@MatMarrash]

Hi Magnus thanks for the questions. Those are in-camera 8x10" negatives. There will be digital negatives on the channel at some point, but most printing I'm doing is from hand-made negatives.

[@m00dawg]

Contact printing is one of the main reasons I want to get into 8x10. My only hangup is how careful I should be with handling film when doing contact printing? Seems like there might be more chances to damage a negative? I suppose one way around that is to expose multiple sheets and only use one to contact print. Or to make a copy negative (but the one time I did that was DUST for days).

[@MatMarrash]

Tim you make a good point. You'll want to be careful with the negative, but they're heartier than when they're done developing and washing. I handle them with gloves and haven't ruined any negatives via contact printing in my entire run with large format. Surprisingly, finger prints have only shown up in a few silver contact prints, alt process was very forgiving on dust and etc.

[@toulcaz31]

Great video Mat. There seems to be everything I need to lose my printing virginity 🙂. Would you be able to share the reference of the paper and chemicals you used in that video in description or a sticky? Thanks and happy new year.

[@MatMarrash]

Updated the description, Happy New Year Nico!

[@kayhanshaghaghi9597]

Great video. What’s the tape you use to mask the edges on the contact frame?

[@MatMarrash]

This was masking tape in 2-3 layers built up around the frame. Whatever tape you use, you want it to be low adhesive and fairly opaque.

[@stuartcazares3747]

Fun and informative video, thank you for starting off the new year on a positive note! I have a question (many actually), why are there clothes pins in the dryer? I’m self teaching darkroom skills from books and that detail just caught my eye.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks for the comment Stuart! The clothespins are for hanging film to dry. The dryer is dual purpose and can hang ~ 30 rolls of film vertically.

[@DigitalMentorGroup]

You used an 8X10 negative to make the contact print, and I was wondering if you could also use the same process to print a digital negative using plastic transparencies, also 8X10? I do not have access to a full darkroom, as you have in the video.

[@MatMarrash]

Really good question! Digital negatives have come a long way in the last decade and there are now a few inkjet transparency materials that are good for creating digital negatives. The only downside is you'll want a pretty high starting resolution since a contact print on silver gelatin of 8x10" size will show all the flaws in printing!

[@juanfarrell1088]

awesome video as usual, straight to the point and clear. is your safelight yellow? how are you able to shoot video? my paper fogs as soon as the light is remotely bright enough to shoot video. I used a red lamp, admittedly my video camera lens is not very fast.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks for the comment and questions Juan. The safelights here are orange and there was a lot of specialty camera needed to record in these super low levels of light. Almost all darkroom shots where done ~ 10,000 ISO with an f/1.4 lens.

[@juanfarrell1088]

@@MatMarrash I'm pushing my ISO to 80000 (3 stops more than ISO 10k) and the lens at f3.5, so in theory my camera is receiving 1/3 of a stop more light than yours. I'm starting to think that there's something wrong with my safelight, as in the wavelength it delivers. Will try a yellow/brown source. Thanks for replying, you're a legend.

[@Agedwheel]

Matt, love the video, can you explain a little further about the negative mask you and it’s purpose.

[@MatMarrash]

Hey Michael, check out 08:24 it's all about leaving excess unexposed space to prevent "sloughing" off of emulsion during washing. Made of inexpensive, low-adhesive masking tape (~3 layers).

[@Agedwheel]

@@MatMarrash thanks man!! Happy new year

[@user-de6xc6rj4gt]

We see a huge vignetting in your enlarger light, is it right?

[@erikepskamp1991]

Mat, another great video please keep 'em coming. The darkroom videos are helpful. Just a couple of questions... without being concerned about DOF how do you choose the aperture? You also mentioned silver gelatin prints, is that specific to fiber paper or can RC be considered silver gelatin as well? Lastly, can you expand on contrast grade choice? Happy New Year

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Erik! With contact printing, any choice of aperture, time, and enlarger height are all a means to control overall exposure. Don't want to double the exposure time? Open up by an f-stop on the lens. Typically when printing under an enlarger, I'll use the lens two f-stops higher from its lowest to perform the test strip. As for filtration that's a bit harder to answer in a sentence or two, but it comes down to taste and how much "oomph" you want in the final print.

[@erikepskamp1991]

@@MatMarrash Thank you sir

[@hughsydney2620]

super👍

[@MatMarrash]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@andyvan5692]

nice video, but Mat, don't you have to observe the print DRY, as during the drying process the grain density changes, so the contrast of the image will too. ( summarising some tips Rachel Brewster-wright had on working with paper developing, in an Ilford video series she hosted).

[@Francois_L_7933]

Happy New Year Mat! BTW, why are there clothes pins to twist the screens in the drying cabinet? I wouldn't be tempted to do this...

[@MatMarrash]

The clothespins are leftovers from hanging film to dry. Screens came to us bent up, but prints dry the same. Happy New Year!

[@Francois_L_7933]

@@MatMarrash I would just have been tempted to make a custom holder for the pins... but I guess that in a commercial setting, if it works it's good enough.

[@ljames43230]

Mat, great episode. Are contact prints usually 1 to 1 or can you upsize the final print?

[@MatMarrash]

Hey Larry! Contact prints are always 1:1. If you scale up or down, that's enlargement. You could scan and output a digital negative for contact printing; this is a very popular method for alternative process printings which is almost always contact printed.

[@ljames43230]

@@MatMarrash thanks for the explanation. When things clear up I’m looking forward to some darkroom classes.

[@nikoy4266]

put the print ABOVE glass, by using silicon oil between print and glass is way better than projection to different density(glass) with refraction. alcohol also a option for the wet printing

[@MatMarrash]

Sounds messy for a contact print.

[@nickfanzo]

Which enlarger is that for the 4x5 ?

[@MatMarrash]

Hey Nicholas that's a Saunders LPL 4x5, a pretty modern diffusion enlarger with multigrade printing head.

[@richardwilliamsiv3778]

What do the memberships cost for darkroom rental. And do they require you to be a certain “skill set “ in order to use them, aside from knowing the basic chemistry?

[@MatMarrash]

No memberships required, but you do have to have basic operating knowledge of an enlarger and be able to use darkroom chemicals without supervision. Once in-person classes resume at Midwest Photo, One-on-One darkroom lessons are available for first time users. You can find out more at: mpexlearningstudio.com/mpex-darkroom/

[@camerachica73]

I'd love to see you enlarge 8x10 negs - isn't finding an enlarger that can do it a bit tricky?

[@MatMarrash]

You and me both! ;) Haven't enlarged 8x10 in years, but would love to have a space big enough. Maybe someday!

[@camerachica73]

@@MatMarrash I think you have to do it horizontally to get enough enlargement room i.e. on a walll?!

[@stevebills2427]

@@MatMarrash I emailed Intrepid Camera about the possibility of building an 8x0 (like the 4x5 they offer). They told me it was in the works...however they announced the Intrepid 35mm & 120 Enlarger so now I have no idea.

[@MatMarrash]

@@camerachica73 I used to print on a vertical 8x10 enlarger back in the day. Had a monster 3m column, so horizontal would be easier but take even more floor space!

[@user-lu8mc3wo3i]

I saw a Devere 5108 on sale a while back but they are indeed hard to find.

[@alanhuntley55]

Hey Matt, since normal dilution for Sprint Stop is 1:9, I'm curious why you dilute 1:19? Great video!

[@MatMarrash]

Good catch Alan, old (Kodak) habits die hard! Can't say I love the added "vanilla" scent, just smells like acetic acid got poured over cookies.

[@user-lu8mc3wo3i]

Hi Mat, Old time photo finisher here (had to change careers in 1994) and I was curious what type of safelight you are using here? I’ve always used Thomas Duplex sodium vapor but I’d be interested in buying a safelight like the one in your lab. Thanks!

[@MatMarrash]

Hey William thanks for the question. These are deep amber fluorescent light filters made by Rosco, doubled up on each bulb they make for inexpensive, bright safelights with a working time of ~ 15 min. for MG fiber papers.

[@mike747436]

Hi Matt. I’d be interested to see your process for split grade printing.

[@christiancardona9889]

Yes, me too

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Mike, I find myself split grade printing less and less as the years go by. I used to think it was laziness but now I'm starting to think it's my familiarity with my film and developer regimen.

[@mike747436]

@@MatMarrash I think I can relate to that. Whenever I have to split grade print, I try to think how I could have shot differently to avoid it. I’m still struggling for consistent results with split grade.

[@MatMarrash]

@@mike747436 From past experience with split grade, it's not consistent and requires a more involved test strip than single grade + dodge/burn printing. Still useful for those super tricky negatives.

[@stevebills2427]

On fibre based papers after selenium toning, do you wash for another 20 minutes or will shorter times work?

[@MatMarrash]

Good question Steve, I do a longer wash just to be certain. For faster overall final washing, I've seen some folks add a small amount of toner to perma wash instead of water. Only did that method with really large prints, which didn't stain but used a ton of chemicals!

[@jagman1953]

Where can I get the fluorescent safe light bulbs? Do you recommend yellow or red ?

[@MatMarrash]

Hey Paul these are safelight filters that fit over regular fluorescent bulbs (Rosco #027). I'd recommend an amber or red safelight as some papers may respond to a more yellow light.

[@rmcinaz]

Do you have any issues with newton's rings with that contact printer? I use a friend's darkroom for printing and he has one of those really expensive "furniture quality" wood ones that I always get rings on. When I was living with my parents after college I just a piece of heavy plate glass and never got rings. I'm thinking of getting on of those cheap Paterson ones. Your opinion?

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks for the question. The Paterson printer nor thick glass have given me Newton's rings but I have heard of it happening with contact printers. My guess is lack of pressure between a glossy paper and the emulsion.

[@steveh1273]

Looks like you used one fixer, did a short wash, toned with or without hypo clear, and then washed the final result, Is that the process? Also, I've worked with Alan Ross too, we didn't tape off the print edges, but we didn't do contact prints. Really enjoyed this video as usual. Oh, what type of tape was that you used?

[@MatMarrash]

That's the beauty of editing, the "quick wash" after fixing is ~ 30 minutes, which can be shortened if you use hypo clear. It's really important not to have any residual fixer before toning, otherwise you'll get a stain in the print. Simple masking tape was used, 2-3 layers to get an opaque edge. Cheers!

[@steveh1273]

@@MatMarrash thanks for your reply. I know of some notable photographers that say go straight from a second fixer into the hypo clear-selenium toning bath. I've tried both ways, wash first or straight from a fixer. I've gotten some overall yellowing, but I don't know which batch caused it. Think I''ll make sure my prints are well fixed and washed, then tone from now on.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

I've always wanted to make a duplicate of a negative with negative film, in other words, turn it into a slide.

[@MatMarrash]

Thanks Michael, stay tuned to the channel, B&W reversal is something I've done for years now! ;)

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

@@MatMarrash My idea was to enlarge a 4x5 to an 8x10 on negative film and then display it backlit.

[@MatMarrash]

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio I'd recommend an ortho film with a clear base like Ilford Ortho Plus for that type of work. Also accounting for the higher speed of the film could be tricky.

[@randallstewart175]

This process has a solid advantage over simply processing your film to yield positive slides: (1) controlling the density and contrast of the final positive slide is much harder in the reversal process, and (2) you preserve your normal negative for other printing. You can use ortho sheet film, commonly available in 4x5 inch size, ex., from Freestyle, fairly inexpensive. You can contact print your negative to the ortho film in a darkroom under red light (like some enlarging paper; but not the more common amber light). You process in a normal paper developer like Dektol, then stop bath and fix per film requirements, in open tray, much like you would a paper print. You can vary developer dilution and exposure time to control contrast and density of the positive. Finally, the ortho sheet film is on a much heavier base than roll film, so if you cut down and mount slides for projection, they will be easier to assemble and will lie flatter for projection. Overall, much superior to reversal processing of your B&W film.

[@haydnwolfie]

Cincinnati Gang

[@sergeiyatsenko]

Why a mask? Сovid is not distributed over the internet. Or am I wrong?

[@sgroadie6367]

If i dont have an enlarger, it the contact print possible with a studio flash with a suitable modifier?

[@Resgerr]

Edward Weston used a bare lightbulb. Flash is too short a duration

[@MatMarrash]

Good question, I think a studio flash would be way too intense, you may be better off with a small LED or incandescent bulb.

[@Resgerr]

I’ve just googled it some say you can use a desk lamp and count the seconds. Can put a diffuser over( Weston used cloth but bear in mind don’t have a diffuser on to long you don’t want a 🔥!) think tissue paper would be better but there again don’t leave it on too long

[@MatMarrash]

@@davec5330 That sounded like a lot of light until I saw AZO in the comment. Brilliant paper which demands its own unique process.

[@MatMarrash]

@@davec5330 we could film an entire episode in a roller rink!

[@andrefelixstudio2833]

Why would you wear the mask, you in a darkroom! LOL

[@dusanlietava8082]

prečo šaškuješ v maske ked si pri natáčaní videa sám....

[@pixartist82]

Hi Mat. I really like your videos. But why the hell are you doing your videos with a mask now? It would be nice not to be reminded of this topic here too. You are alone in your private space. Why a mask? best regards

[@ljames43230]

I’m sure Mat can answer this for himself, but he’s at Midwest Camera Store’s darkroom. They require a mask within the store, so maybe he’s just following store policy.

[@LaurRants]

He works at midwest photo. The store requires masks and their store policies are why he and I have not contacted covid despite mat being in constant contact with the public. This isn't a political statement: this is our lives. We have to do this to make sure we stay safe. It's the simplest thing we do keep ourselves and others healthy.

[@lightloving683]

There are also chemical sensitivities. I started having issues with fixer about 10-15 years ago, even with very good ventilation. So I wear a mask to continue to enjoy the analog darkroom.

[@MatMarrash]

The space used in this video is not a private one, but a rental darkroom whose policy requires a mask.

[@pixartist82]

@@MatMarrash ok thanks

[@barrydoyle7686]

Had to thumbs down because of the mask. Otherwise great vid.

[@MatMarrash]

Thumbs down for public safety in enclosed spaces? Yeesh.

[@barrydoyle7686]

Subscribed. Like I said great vid and channel but yes, can’t abide COVID hysteria.

[@SD_Alias]

@@barrydoyle7686 Have you ever been a witness when someone suffocates? I wish i could take you with me to work in hospital…

[@barrydoyle7686]

@@SD_Alias that's the kind of talk that has people too terrified to leave their homes. You should reflect before flippantly saying things like that; some high-strung people are beyond despair from this fear speech.

[@SD_Alias]

@@barrydoyle7686 I have only reported my experiences and what i saw at work. While you carelessly speak of hysteria when people should only be carefully.