Materialism, spirituality, and being a rational psychonaut with Josie Kins

I am joined once again by fellow psychonaut Josie Kins, creator of the Subjective Effect Index and host of her own KZbin channel (links below).
Josie and I have a fascinating conversation mainly on the topic of materialism and how that is compatible with concepts such as spirituality and theories around the source of consciousness.
Josie's KZbin channel can be found here - / josikinz
And here is a link to the Subjective Effect Index - effectindex.com/
If you would like to support this channel you can do so through the links below
Patreon: / adeptuspsychonautica
Adeptus Psychonautica merch: my-store-9160437.creator-spri...
Donate: paypal.me/Chrysanthescope
Buy me a coffee: ko-fi.com/adeptuspsychonautica
If you want to chat with me and the Adeptus Psychonautica community then all my various social feeds are linked below
Discord - / discord
Reddit - / adeptuspsychonautica
Instagram - / nicaragua_nova
facebook - / adeptuspsychonautica
Twitter - / apsychonautica
#psychonaut #psychedelics #dmt

[@PauloBLKNS]

She already deserves her own blotter art

[@josikinz]

that's quite the compliment, thank you xD

[@lickyr7467]

she does lmao

[@shanesmith734]

Josie’s content has definitely saved my life, and I’m sure others. She has contributed so much to the modern psychedelic community.

[@josikinz]

Thank you so much! Do you mind me asking in what way my content has helped save your life?

[@shanesmith734]

@@josikinz I used to (and still do) frequent PsychonautWiki for drug safety information. Dosages, whther I wanted to actually use a drug or not, risk vs reward etc. That site and your Subjective Effect Index have come in so handy it's unreal. Very valuable stuff.

[@FLmetalhead]

Thanks for giving Josie an interview. I love the content on her KZbin channel. She doesn’t have that many videos but the ones she does are really good.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I 100% agree. I've been a fan of her work for a while so its a real pleasure to get the opportunity to talk to her

[@billyblim1213]

I have had some crazy synchronicities that felt like God or the universe sending a direct message. I don't discount that possiblity, but I also know that every time I look up at the clouds, I see a face or a rabbit or something. And every time I turn on the radio, some random pop song seems to relate eerily well to something I am going through. Our brains are very good at finding meaningful patterns even where there are none. Plus, we are surrounded by millions of opportunities for coincidence every day. So I take all that into account too.

[@allenclark4235]

I very much feel these are coincidence and mental shortcuts causing this phenomenon but I also feel like your brain is highlighting these things for a reason. Beautiful really.

[@infowarriorone]

Love Josie's sense of humour. She gets it.

[@douglas.skene88]

What an absolutely rational discussion about some far-out topics. Super interesting about the scans that Josie got showing a very inactive DMN. Fascinating talk and damn is Josie across many of these concepts.

[@SymmetricVision]

Thank You, Josi for saving lives!

[@Megaghost_]

Thanks for PsychonautWiki and "Disregard Everything I say", your work is an inspiration for all psychonauts, Josie!

[@josikinz]

thanks, and no problem! ^_^

[@bryandraughn9830]

Great interview! Psychedelic exploration should be done very carefully and rationally. It's something that so vulnerable to psychological bias.

[@tombolo4120]

Exactly. ...if not already implied, seems like Quality Control is essential to the level of research she's involved with.

[@chinopuertorico]

Yay. Very underrated channel's and research. Thank you so muchfor this.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Our pleasure!

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

One last thing on the video trip reports, you can pull the CC transcription from youtube via API, which means the thousands of reports that are already on youtube can be accessed and analyzed programmatically.

[@paynefullytwisted8752]

I loved this! These are the kinds of things I usually am only able to argue with myself about at 3 AM, but now having a medium to channel these thoughts through is quite useful. A means of more systematically pondering such topics and having you two to keep me focused. A fun, grounded discussion that has me excited to watch your other videos of this nature, which I wrongly passed up originally simple due to their length.

[@turmericbroccoli4346]

Thank you so much 🙏❤️

[@thatslavicdude]

Thank you for PsychonautWiki, Josie! It has literally saved my life before when I almost messed up my dosage of a depressant and checked on your site prior to ingestion. Your replications are dope too! ✌🏼

[@frankthehippie]

I have only seen your content for two weeks now but it’s so good. Great well of information

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I appreciate that!

[@CorvoAttan0]

Aaaa two of my favourite psychedelic KZbinrs collating 😍🤝

[@carolinewells4355]

I really needed to hear this today

[@vu4y3fo846y]

The ontological discussion is very interesting

[@ninjuhdelic]

Just now learning of your wonderful contributions, just wow, youre an amazing human. Youve done so much, cant wait to see what the universe has in store for such a magnificant being.

[@adrianwheeler1936]

Loved this! Fan of both your channels glad to see them intersect ❤️

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Me too 🙂

[@noahsaville]

This is very interesting so far, good stuff

[@GokuSilver337]

I LOVE Josiekins

[@alkeryn1700]

You can easily tag video reports in an automated way ^^

[@SeamusTreacy]

im on mdma rn but fuck man. You're the releast psychedelic content creator on youtube ur skits are hilarious and all those arm movements are reassuraing when i was on a bad trip comedown. Just love everything you do and how you present it and im off a pill so might aswell say it now. Love you rob keep it reaL

[@christausen1663]

So is it possible they force their way into ur body? I got scared and i push it out after somehow bumping into one after it said fuse n my left side started to go black. Ive learned how to control my brain more since my ego death n have gone thru the levels only to reach a gate of some sort. Almost like a old giant harp without the strings. I had to remember to breathe n then i came back. Ive only been given the synthetic version a couple times but she explains everything to a deeper level that i cant even describe. If u wanna train ur brain, feel where u get the small headaches u may get. If u get signals try to focus ur ears on them more also. Trying to reach spiritual enlightenment is hard. All the troubles of the world n also not grounding

[@fabiankempazo7055]

unfortunetly I just lack the time to listen carefully to an 2h video (work & kids). but the topic is super interesting. would it possible to make a 15min video about it with the vertices / most important thoughts or concepts. All I have seen so far from Josie was amazing: deep but still rational based. most people who are deep into psychedelics often lack an unbiased with and tend ab bit too much to esoteric thoughts.

[@ptadisbander7959]

Josie is the fucking bomb can’t believe I’ve only just discovered them?

[@extraterrestrialearthling1080]

Great discussion, and thank you guys for doing this work and spreading this knowledge. I consider myself a rational psychonaut however firmly believe that if you don't believe in magic then you have not gone deep enough. From my experience, DMT in particular when in combination with other psychs in heroic doses has resulted in synchronicities and encounters that can't even be comprehended let alone explained

[@ATHiR0N]

Hey do you know philosophical anime you can recommend? And did you watch Serial Experiments Lain?

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I'm not sure I would really describe any of the anime I have watched as philosophical, but the show (not anime) I think has the most interesting themes is Adventure Time, with the later seasons becoming incredibly profound in my opinion. I haven't seen SEL, but its on my list to watch

[@melparadise7378]

For someone who's about the science of it, y'all didn't really talk about the science much. bits of this are very redundant. Would have liked to hear more in-depth explanations of your processes. How are you going to categorize something so complex that's in constant flux and flow? It's very dynamic. Some stuff I think you might be on the right track with. Definitely something funny going on with our dna and memory for sure. How does how you're categorizing things compare to what the Qualia people are doing? What an exciting time to see all these different perspectives pop up. I'm so curious. :B

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I wouldn't describe myself at all as someone who is about the science of it. I actually find the science to be the least interesting part of psychedelics, and am personally much more interested in how they impact our experience as human beings, in particular the narratives we tell ourselves about our lives.

[@christobalgonzalez3529]

How much HCl harmine do i take for a pharmahuasca effect

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

It varies depending on bodyweight, but as a rough estimate then 100mg would do it for someone of my size

[@allenclark4235]

Josie''s resting expression says so much. Like, she is attentive and present but you get the feeling that she is, maybe not expecting but at least wouldn't be surprised if he disintegrated into a tornado of butterflies that flew through the screen and reassembled himself in the room next to her lol. She has that glow of someone who has seen some shit lol.

[@fabi8941]

I'd say ego death is memory. I personally think the subconscious is like immediat nerve signals and instinctiv reactions ego is the reflection of that on a short term and super ego is than again the reflection of ego. Its seems like a kind of looped reflection of self

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I don't agree that its memory, because people tend to have the ability to recall the actual event of ego death itself often in excruciating detail, so memory (at least short term memory) seems to be intact.

[@fabi8941]

@AdeptusPsychonautica im not sure if the ego even dies or if it's just the superego in freudian terms. At least the working memory has to be intact as you still experience something. If it was just your subconscious, you wouldn't subjectively be capable of experiencing anything. But the greater refelction of you being and place in what you are experiencing based on the past you is strongly influenced and will readjust when your sober. But this is just a theory w the same problems as Freudian psychology as I came to this conclusion sitting in some chair reflecting myself.

[@dimitrishow_D]

creatures that came out of nothing rationalising everything away on a rock thats floating trough infinity amuses me :)

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

What else are we gonna do 🙂

[@dimitrishow_D]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica death by astonishment🤣

[@oldnic]

🔥🔥🔥

[@jaientenduunevoix726]

Holy crap what a genius

[@juv3ydvs3vb3vst7]

Where my psychedelic buddies

[@staudingerk]

Awesome graphics on the cover, had to click on the video because of it. Lol.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

It seemed like a good excuse to wheel out the cartoon avatars. My daughter drew mine... bless her little socks 😍

[@osirismother]

Josie makes me laugh a lot, she is great. I predict she will end up experimenting with actual Magick at some point as her homemade religion sounds a lot like Chaos Magick which uses the scientific principles to get repeated and predictable results.

[@kevinsedwards]

You never hear a dude talking about witchcraft. Magic isn't real Karen

[@osirismother]

@@kevinsedwards I was sitting next to a male Witch literally minutes ago so you know nothing about that matter. I think you know little about the other too but if you go on taking psychedelics I think you will eventually be able to do your own experiments and I await your results brother.

[@kevinsedwards]

@@osirismother there's no such thing as witchcraft or magic. you're just another one of those lunatics with taro cards. you probably also work a dead end job and live around the poverty line.

[@kevinsedwards]

@@osirismother you aren't a witch nor is your dominos delivery boyfriend. you're a couple people with taro cards and a heavy dose of delusion from abusing psychedelics.

[@danscieszinski4120]

Understand that physics doesn’t work without real transcendent spaces beyond 4D blocks. Not abstracted spaces, but real slices of the Lie groups of set theory. If you want the mechanics of how what we would usually call mystical phenomenon are enabled, you only need to look to physics and the hyper-geometry needed to make the realization that our 4D block frame is embedded in a much larger framework. Is it really so hard to believe consciousness lives there?

[@rossnoble6364]

Humanity needs to get out of their head and back into their heart... The shift from materialism to spiritualism is very important

[@danscieszinski4120]

The heart tends to well and override the voice when it senses karmic repercussions to verbalizing concepts that don’t resonate with it. Embrace the cosmic self and behold all your self-ailments resolve, but certainty don’t take my word for it. Try it on for a while, see how it fits, who knows… maybe new experiences and knowledge will be revealed to you. Good luck.

[@eduardonigma9985]

I kind of see ego death as a memory suppression, at least my experience. I'm generally neurotypical, so maybe she's right, who knows

[@SuperBenji08]

❤17:00

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

😁

[@F52xxx]

1:28:00 lol

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

Just a side note, 1:20:00 the archetypes you are talking about are again a foundation of Jungian philosophy. The two of you reference Jung a lot and I wonder if you are just not saying 'This is Jung' because you expect that it's understood, or if you aren't aware that you are referencing Jung.

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

Oh. Hah! 3 minutes later you acknowledge it is Jung. Okay. lol.

[@Felix-rw6yc]

Nice Video :P :)

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Thanks 😁

[@internchangelabosa6342]

I don't know how one can experience such things and be so cold about it. Atheism or agnosticism is seemingly a thing of the past. The idea to classify and put things into context in itself aren't necessarily wrong but in a postmodern world they become increasingly harder. Rationality or materialism even from a scientific perspective are experiencing a hard time within New scientific findings. Buddhism being cited here, is an indicator as to why the West lost religion. We like these traditions because the way they come to us is ready packaged and reduced and ready made for western conception. Saying like "brain produces" consciousness to not providing an answer to why humans gave this inbuilt need for spirituality. Why is it rational to have context in particular context. In the scientific jargon these could be mild forms delusions since materially we are individuals. I think I sense that people who hide behind science don't fully understand that branches to understand these are far reaching touching maths, advanced geometry, philosophy, quantum mechanics and much more.

[@user-cr9zo5yo9k]

*sorry super long message here* Really enjoyed hearing you guys chat and I understand the need to try and rationalize everything with science But recently I feel like its just not good enough… Idk maybe you guys could offer some guidance or thoughts on this But for me none of this makes sense in the first place. Like it almost seems silly to try and have grounded thoughts when the universe itself has zero reason to exist at all. Like this whole existence is nonsensical and no matter how much science we do it will never answer questions like “the meaning of life” “why the universe exists/ or even how” “how consciousness is even a thing and why?” Also I know you mentioned how you guys have had some sort of telepathic experience… at that point why not believe there is something beyond scientific explanation happening As far as I’m concerned literally anything is possible because no one really knows how the universe truly works. I think its good to keep your mind open because at this point the answers to any of these questions could be anything. (Sorry for such a long message that kinda bounced from one idea from the next, tbh I’ve barely done any psychedelics… most of these thoughts just come from the various existential crisis’s i’ve been having recently, if you have any advice on how to deal with these thoughts please let me know. Because sometimes its so easy to get lost in them)

[@xenomyr]

I believe I had an experience of telepathy a few years back. One night I was at my parents' house and when I went to bed, my father was sleeping in his bedroom which is next to mine. I could hear him having a nightmare and moan loudly for 15min and I decided to do something I never do : I prayed for him, strongly and silently in my head, making the wish that his activity changed from nightmare to a joyful dream. (I also wanted to sleep as he was quite noisy) 1 minute or so later he wakes up laughing histerically for 10 minutes straight with tears down his cheeks. It was the first time I had seen my father laughing for that long with that intensity, and especially never seen him waking up laughing from a dream. Even my mother who was watching TV in the living room was astonished by his state at that moment. I'm still wondering to this day what happened. The probability of it being a coincidence for me is low but we never know. Maybe there is a field of some kind. Maybe the physical proximity (behind a wall ) has a role in that experience.. If someone had a similar experience I'm curious btw.

[@pieceofmind321]

HOW DOES THE ART GET INTO UR BRAIN!? I don’t believe its JUST a hallucination, most of the time at least, sometimes i take a slightly less rational stance. I think the mystical experiences had on psychedelics are the foundation of many peoples spiritual beliefs hence the emotional reaction to such an intelligent and well informed individual contradicting the notion that these experiences serve an intended purpose.

[@buyiphilip]

you've raised a very interesting point, some people receive hallucinations and some receive an unknown reality that some would never get a witness to enter "seeing beyond what others can't see " reality only exists only when observed & observing a pixelated reality.

[@danscieszinski4120]

And if panpsychism is literally true, which I tend to believe, your back to something that looks and feels very much like the mystics ‘mind of god’ model. I see no way to separate panpsychism from idealism.

[@danscieszinski4120]

If we dislike pushback about verbalizing beliefs perhaps don’t try to hijack words. “Spiritual” is loaded and charged from centuries of use, so why would a materialist want to hijack it to describe their lack of belief in transcendent worlds? If you feel good about your lack of belief in the transcendent then why not just own it? By the way, like all ways of belief, Buddhists come in a spectrum from the materialist zen, to the bardo believers. It seems many self proclaimed materialists are uncomfortable with their own position. Just own it.

[@IAmSetas]

I'm curious how rational psychonauts would explain peopla having memories from their past lives. There are some documentaries (some even checked the information if pesrson is accurate about location, landscapes and so on) and in my opinion, it's a very interesting phenomenon. It would prove that our concious is not so coupled with our physical brain. So rational psychonauts has two options, dismiss it as woo hoo or admit that there is something beside our brain and just data inside.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I would dismiss it as woo woo 🙂

[@ethanjohnson3642]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica morphic resonance can easily explain the phenomenon

[@IAmSetas]

@@ethanjohnson3642 Thanks for the morphic resonance term. First time I heard about it. But I think this just confirms that our brain may act as a receiver. It opens doors for a lot of speculation. It would explain the telepathy phenomenon occurring during the psychedelic experience. I liked the explanation by Josie Kins. It may be just our body language transferring information. Also, entities may be not only in our head if the brain acts like a receiver and in this case, McKenna was not so wrong. It's difficult to dismiss this as woo woo as there is some academic research done on this (just one of examples): "Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives: Cases with Written Records Made before the Previous Personality Was Identified" University of Virginia Health System

[@user-vs1cm8nv5i]

unless you’ve actually read dr ian stevenson’s work and identified the specific methodological or other flaws you’d like to critcize, then , respectfully, fuck off :)

[@Illumignostic]

They have to be related

[@nemesis8626]

Man her research seems to be very difficult, firstly because of differing potentcys in psychodelics, peoples tolerances, the fact substances effect people differently and also because reading trip reports online alot are just straight up fake and more like a creative writing exercise to get people views

[@Jay_Hendrix]

Pantheism! 💯

[@kasperikovalainen3013]

Thank you Rob. Always love to see your vids✌️❤️ I really felt a need to comment on this. Don't know why😅 but here goes. Placebo/nocebo is the thing closely related to a thing called magic. Having faith(or lack of it) on oneself and to people/events around oneself attracts the same vibration that it emits. Im not a fan of religions or anyhting like but a good example of what im talking about here is that, if there ever was jesus(yeah i know but everyone knows this story), it was not him that walked on water. It was the faith of his followers that made him able to walk on water. Im just playing with a thought of a thing that science can't explain, yet. There's many things i dont know about and even more things that i don't know that i could know about.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Hi Kasperi, I don't think I would agree with what you are proposing. Jesus had a relatively small following, so if what you are saying is correct then wouldn't modern "spiritual" leaders be capable of even greater miracles. Tom Cruise probably has a greater audience and more devoted worshippers through his Scientology, shouldn't he be walking on water by now? I would completely agree that there are many things science cannot explain, but I think that's a different situation to accepting "magic" as a rational explanation.

[@kasperikovalainen3013]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica well yes greater audience of both placebo and nocebo. Just a thought and a very bad example i see.

[@kasperikovalainen3013]

Oh and i said closely related to a thing one would call magic

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Whether you call it magic or anything else isn't really the issue, its more that what you have described as reality warping ability being generated by the faith of others doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. Why would Tom Cruise's audience be more placebo/nocebo than Jesus? Why don't we see Sadhguru walking on water, or stadium filling American Evangelists levitating through the air. Is "magic" actually needed as an explanation to anything?

[@danscieszinski4120]

The word ‘magic’ is being used like a club in these circles, and being a primary operator to signal one’s alignment with materialist beliefs is disappointing. I’ll just tip my hat to Mr. Clarke here, reminding the collective consciousness that any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from what we would typically refer to as ‘magic’. It’s a fallacy to wield it as a pejorative in the context of the existence of transcendent planes.

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

Synchronicity is a Jungian concept, and when you dive into that part of his work, it very much does correlate to magic. I think people have associated Magick with magic in a very 'Harry Potter' way. It's far more subtle and subconscious. Set and setting is very much magic. When you focus on a goal of healing, or understanding or connectedness for example, you can make great strides in therapeutic work. The ritual spoken of is another example. It's not that the magic is affecting the world around you or that you are shooting lightning out of your fingers. You are affecting yourself. I think the exclusion of ritual in psychedelic healing in therapeutic settings is dangerous and damaging. It can be incorporated in a non-theistic way.

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

Further into the video now, and you're going back and forth about telepathy and delusion, and I think you are kind of hitting on the same point I am making about magic. The word telepathy has very specific connotations. But you seem accepting of shared or synchronized conscious states, but that can also be considered telepathy. Unlike the story you told of putting a playing card on top of the shelf and trying to guess or remote view it. Magic is kind of the same way.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

You would have to define what you mean by magic, because for most people (myself included) then the word magic does indeed indicate some akin to Harry Potter. If its something that is happening psychologically or subconsciously as you state, then there is no reason to call that "magic" as doing so does not really help explain what is occurring.

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica That's actually far to narrow of a scope. To really understand it, and what most practitioners of magic are referring to, you need to look into many different religions. To the shaman, what they are doing is magic. Christian prayer is also magic, but they would never admit it. The Kabbalists found magic in numbers and language. The Goetics found magic in geometry and symbology. Meditation is magic. Even gardening is magic. Just because there are scientific principles to describe it doesn't make it less magical. Any act of force of your will is magic, if it is also performed from a mystical state of mind or can elicit that mystical experience.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

Conversely though, saying anything from gardening to prayer is "magic" is far too broad a scope to the point that its bordering on useless. Personally I wouldn't use the word magic to describe any of what you mention (shamanism, meditation, kabbalah etc), but if you want to then go for it. I just don't think it clarifies anything but rather unnecessarily obscures.

[@manslaughterinc.9135]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica Personally you are allowed to use any word to describe whatever you want, but Kabbalists, shamans, and many Buddhist and Hindu mystics use exactly this word, or analogs of this word. The term magic is about as precise as the term mystic, and the two are interchangeable in many scenarios. The difference is primarily that something that is mystical is innate, whereas magic is active. Magic doesn't have to be clarified, we just don't have a framework for understanding this in the west due to the demystification of christianity by the catholic church in around 300ad, when Gnosticism was eradicated.

[@versoturner5777]

Brains aren't generating conciousness. Conciousness generates brains.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

That's one theory, but try not to get too hung up on it

[@zegendoflolda]

you gotta start a cult

[@versoturner5777]

I'm surprised at how small minded this conversation is. There is already work being done in science pointing to the mind being outside of the brain so her need to localized all this phenomenon within the brain isn't making any sense. looking at everything through a materiaist lens is biased and not actual science. to answer the question on what good does it do... it's opened the world to me. Calling people mad because they are more open minded than you is extremely close minded.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I dunno, calling people close minded because they do not share your worldview doesn't seem particularly open minded to me 😀

[@Brownkid422]

@@AdeptusPsychonautica I would be interested to know what Josie thinks of Alan watts. I found myself extremely similarly minded to her, reducing everything to a mix of brain chemistry and dismissing everything that hasn't been completely studied, but only listening to Alan watts was able to open my mind to the concept of value beyond that which can be explained. He reawoke my curiosity, which should be the first principle of real science.

[@wormwoodcocktail]

As a woman, I find it offensive that a man in womanface is being described as a woman. Unsubscribed.

[@AdeptusPsychonautica]

I'll be sure to give a fuck at some point

[@Johndoe-wm3ns]

Whether you agree with trans or not she makes good points and has done alot of good for he community if you can't look past that maybe somewhere else would be better for you thank you rob and josie for all you do to help understand psychedelics

[@wormwoodcocktail]

@@Johndoe-wm3ns No. As a woman, I refuse to give any credence to a man in a gross woman costume. Black people don’t like Rachel Dolezal and I don’t like this gross, selfish, creepy autogynephile drug addict.

[@flatearthgenius5732]

A Rational psychonaut = a person who thinks all thees psychedelic happenings are just your imagination and not REAL. Yeah, good try satan.