Ignoring Pitch Accent Is a MISTAKE

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Matt vs Japan

Matt vs Japan

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 708
@mattvsjapan
@mattvsjapan 3 жыл бұрын
Sign up to my free newsletter, I might be sending out some pitch accent tips and tricks in the future! mattvsjapan.com​ If you're interested in learning pitch accent, I recommend Dogen's pronunciation course: patreon.com/dogen
@mypartyisprivate8693
@mypartyisprivate8693 3 жыл бұрын
No, you are wrong. Nihongo isu furatto. Seriously though, when I heard pitch accent is a thing, I wanted to cry.
@mypartyisprivate8693
@mypartyisprivate8693 3 жыл бұрын
How could Japanese education and Japanese-English DICTIONARIES FFS be so oblivious (or so neglectfully non-comprehensive) for so long? English dictionaries have marked the accents of words for hundreds of years now. It has been STANDARD
@fto1176
@fto1176 3 жыл бұрын
@@과자-z8o Standard Korean doesn't have pitch accent. It uses pitch for a lot of things, but it's not an accent system. The example you provided actually is proof that it's a pitch accent system because the emphasis is overriding how you normally say it. Regional dialects of Korean do have pitch accent. (Most places in 경상도 for example.) Just to be sure, Standard / Seoul Korean makes use of pitch in its phonology to a significant extent. The way it uses pitch is not called pitch accent.
@saebre.
@saebre. 3 жыл бұрын
(Probably not gonna see this but) correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say that George made pitch accent mistakes, when George said in his video that pitch accent is very different in different parts of Japan?
@fto1176
@fto1176 3 жыл бұрын
@@saebre. I like spelling as an analogy. Different English speaking regions have different spelling rules, but if you (1) spell something in a way no large group of natives do, then it's a "mistake," (2) mix all the major spelling patterns (sometimes American, sometimes British, sometimes Canadian, sometimes Indian) in one piece of writing, that would be seen as inaccurate and inconsistent, and (3) spell 90% of things American, but randomly mix in other spellings here and there, most copy editors will mark that as a inaccuracy. (1) is clearly a mistake. (2) and (3) depend on context and the person's background. From what I can tell, he's mostly doing (1) and, in the case (2) and (3), even when a Japanese person would say what he said, it's neither Aomori or Tokyo dialect, which means it's a mistake that coincidentally is valid in another region.
@clayhamilton3551
@clayhamilton3551 3 жыл бұрын
You want to know if your pitch accent is bad? Spend some time with kids. I work in a Japanese junior high school and let me tell you.. those kids will absolutely let you know if you're pronouncing something weird. They of course don't know about concepts like pitch accent, but they have no problem making fun of you for the way you pronounce something.
@rrrmil
@rrrmil 3 жыл бұрын
That sounds like great advice! xD
@SM-ok3sz
@SM-ok3sz 2 жыл бұрын
Since when are you allowed around children?
@IsraelCervantes-le4gf
@IsraelCervantes-le4gf Жыл бұрын
Kids are goated, screw adults and their fake niceness
@aster2790
@aster2790 11 ай бұрын
That's actually really amazing! Learning pitch accent would be so much easier if people were always pointing out mistakes
@itsaUSBline
@itsaUSBline 8 ай бұрын
@@IsraelCervantes-le4gf It's not necessarily fake niceness, they might genuinely not want to hurt your feelings. That's called tact, which is different from being fake. Being fake would be if they were being polite even though they didn't care about your feelings at all.
@marosuke139
@marosuke139 3 жыл бұрын
We’re happy when western ppl speak good Japanese, very true. We will never correct any kind of mistakes unless we know its appreciated. The more you’re correct with pitch accents the more impressed we are. FACT.
@w1z4rd9
@w1z4rd9 3 жыл бұрын
これこれ。I back this up!
@mmlane2263
@mmlane2263 3 жыл бұрын
@asami would you be able to translate this for me please!!! 全世界に向けて限りない愛を放ちます Thank you very much if you can!!!
@w1z4rd9
@w1z4rd9 3 жыл бұрын
@@mmlane2263: I'll unleash endless love to the world.
@mmlane2263
@mmlane2263 3 жыл бұрын
@@w1z4rd9 Thank you!!!
@LadyBug-ox8bg
@LadyBug-ox8bg 2 жыл бұрын
@@mmlane2263 I recommend the app Hinative. You can ask natives to help you translate or teach you anything.
@snotrohmitabc123
@snotrohmitabc123 3 жыл бұрын
7:31 “The real value in studying pitch accent is not to try to use the rules in real time. It’s that it allows you to unlock your perception.” Hit the nail on the head with that one. I appreciate how concisely you put it into words. As a native Cantonese speaker, I can’t stress how true this is. Great video. I love the way you speak in general and hope that it will help me improve my speaking skills too.
@yoshi31713
@yoshi31713 3 жыл бұрын
I'm a native Japanese. And what you said is 100% true, in every respect! Your insight is actually amazing....
@marosuke139
@marosuke139 3 жыл бұрын
Ditto.
@DengueBurger
@DengueBurger 3 жыл бұрын
lol todo means everything/all in spanish
@iliaantipin9919
@iliaantipin9919 3 жыл бұрын
Finally a confirmation from a native speaker! :)
@yoshi31713
@yoshi31713 3 жыл бұрын
The difference can be summed up this way. George is an obvious gaijin who speaks Japanese really well. With Matt, it's like, "Wait. Are you part Japanese? You grew up in Japan, right? You scared me a little there." 😂 That said, there are many foreigners who live in Japan that speak Japanese at a (near) native level, pronunciation included. Many Chinese, Koreans, and Russians stand out, in my opinion. People whose native language is English always tend to have some little, yet very noticeable accent. I guess that's why Matt just so stands out... When he speaks Japanese, I hear no (noticeable) accent whatsoever! So yeah, pitch accent does make a great difference. It's not crucial for making yourself understood, of course, but it's the difference between a gaijin and (being mistaken for) a part-Japanese!
@iliaantipin9919
@iliaantipin9919 3 жыл бұрын
@@yoshi31713 very interesting summary, thank you!
@SuperKamiGuruu
@SuperKamiGuruu 3 жыл бұрын
The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master. -Matt
@rd-ub2ox
@rd-ub2ox 3 жыл бұрын
Only a master of evil Matt. -George
@darthrevan4251
@darthrevan4251 3 жыл бұрын
Hello there
@rd-ub2ox
@rd-ub2ox 3 жыл бұрын
@@darthrevan4251 General Kenobi!
@DrAgoti-jk2ff
@DrAgoti-jk2ff 2 жыл бұрын
@@rd-ub2ox You are a bold one!
@WayofRamen
@WayofRamen 3 жыл бұрын
I agree with both of you. To use a metaphor, you are trying to train people to be professional chefs and George is trying to teach people to be home cooks. What someone wants to become is really up to them. Some will find all the gratification they need in just being able to cook something that they think tastes good, others will want to learn to cook well enough to impress other chefs. I think that's what the whole pitch accent debate comes down to.
@AS-os3lj
@AS-os3lj 3 жыл бұрын
Well explained!
@petrosstefanidis6396
@petrosstefanidis6396 3 жыл бұрын
Very well said! I was trying to find the words to say exactly that. And damn I would like to mimic some professional cooking technics and recipes for fun but after a certain point enough is enough. From personal experience, speaking to foreigners or me being the foreigner, conversations light up and there is real connection and joy when there are interesting topics, honesty and good intentions. At that point (at least for me) the other's pronunciation becomes something you just embrace, like a haircut they have and you didn't like when you first met them but now you think "it's actually kind of fun", if that makes sense. On the contrary I've been disappointed by people who just nail the pronunciation and at first and super-impress you (because let's admit it, a foreigner speaking your not-that-popular language with a good pronunciation _is_ exciting). I think of that as a firework. After a few minutes your excitement caused by their well-trained pronunciation starts plummeting and you are left with the core of what they are saying and who they are, which is sometimes disappointing. *On top of that, if both me and the other person are foreigners I sometimes catch myself starting to actually like _their_ characteristic foreign pronunciation but that's another story.
@c0_ber
@c0_ber 3 жыл бұрын
i think that misses matt's point though; it's really not that difficult to train yourself to hear pitch accent, and even if you only want to be a "home cook" you can be a much better one with really not much more time or effort.
@moonlitspud
@moonlitspud 3 жыл бұрын
But pitch accent isn't as hard to learn as people make out - otherwise how would anyone learn truly tonal languages? To use your metaphor, it's like being a home cook who ignores seasoning. Sure they've made the dish, and it seems just like the real thing. But with just a tiny bit more effort sprinkled on top, you can really make it taste amazing.
@petrosstefanidis6396
@petrosstefanidis6396 3 жыл бұрын
@@moonlitspud is it _that_ easy or to keep going with those cooking metaphors, it's like having to go to the super market first to buy the herbs and spices and then you can just use them? Because I can certainly understand why someone would not want to go through that then, when they just want to make a dish 😂. On the contrary if you're passionate about learning a language you can go through every obstacle.
@Jemdawg1000
@Jemdawg1000 3 жыл бұрын
The fact that pitch accent in Japanese is equivalent to stress accent in English should make it clear how important it is for proper pronunciation. Edit: Never said your pronunciation has to be perfect.
@R0Tl
@R0Tl 3 жыл бұрын
As a native English speaker, I can tell you that I was not taught about word stresses until like college. We may have mentioned it before in passing, but barely discussed it. Like most native English speakers, I learned word stresses/emphasis naturally, through hearing other people say the words and essentially copying them. That's why I don't think pitch accent is really important to study, unless you're trying to perfect your Japanese. I'm about 7 months into my Japanese learning, and I've noticed recently that I tend to pronounce the pitches to most of the words I use correctly. For example, 髪 vs 神. But no one taught me these pitch accents. I have been doing audio listening, like podcasts. And my primary anki deck uses audio from native Japanese speakers. As I repeat what they say and mimic them, over time, I start picking up the pitch accent. It's only when I think about it, or hear the wrong version, that I really notice the pitch accent. Right now, becoming fluent and being able to read and listen to Japanese, as well as communicate, is more important to me. That's my just two cents. Of course, I'm not saying you can't focus on pitch accent. I'm a fan of MattVsJapan and have used a lot of Refold's strategy. I just personally don't think it's worth the focus until you're advanced and quite fluent in Japanese and trying to become an expert.
@Charly_dvorak
@Charly_dvorak 3 жыл бұрын
@@blahblahsuperanon the difference is that most English native speakers are used to hearing foreign accents Whereas most Japanese people aren't
@soyoltoi
@soyoltoi 3 жыл бұрын
@@R0Tl Pitch accent doesn't need to be a focus. It's just in the background. The choice is to ignore it or to not ignore it. Your brain didn't ignore it, and now you know the right pitch for words. But not everyone is like you in that a lot of people become fluent in Japanese and don't realize they're using the wrong pitch accents. So for them, it's an active choice, one anyone can easily make near the beginning to start noticing pitch.
@Ruebz_f30
@Ruebz_f30 3 жыл бұрын
I'm a native English speaker and I've never heard of word stresses or stress accent until I read this this comment 🤣
@UItraVioIet
@UItraVioIet 3 жыл бұрын
I disagree. As far as I’m aware, stress accent (in this sort of context) is only to differentiate verbs vs nouns when the word is the same. Any other homophones are the same. Other types of English stress patterns aren’t even close to being comparable. Pitch accent is far more common for distinguishing homophones in Japanese, but it’s still not all of them. There are plenty of homophones that have the exact same pitch accent and kanji/context is the only way of knowing. Sometimes kanji is the only way. “Hair” and “paper” have the exact same pitch accent. Not only can you cut both, but you can cut both with scissors. While they serve similar purposes (distinguishing homophones), English stress accent has a far narrower, much more specific usage, so I would fervently disagree that they are “equivalent”.
@Vexxed
@Vexxed 3 жыл бұрын
I've watched both videos, it has been interesting listening to both sides of this discussion. George made a really interesting point in his video that wasn't brought up here. "Language is a tool to communicate, not an art to perfect." Having thought about this, I disagree with George's take. I think language can be both a tool and an art. Each person has different goals when learning a language. Some just want to become communicative (a tool) while others strive to master their second language (an art). It might be worthwhile for people consider whether their second language's value is as a tool, an art, or both.
@brianmitchell2202
@brianmitchell2202 3 жыл бұрын
I don't think either side is aiming for perfection, to be fair. I think the real disagreement is that of doing literally nothing to improve your pitch accent, and doing just a little (for example, use and try to internalize dogan's course).
@shaianna.1222
@shaianna.1222 3 жыл бұрын
I mainly agree with that quote, although wouldn't a little accent practice make language more effective as a tool? Taking it all the way to Matt's level could probably be considered an art, but just a couple hours on pitch practice helps so so much
@TkyoSam
@TkyoSam 3 жыл бұрын
Damn right son
@irishpanda8648
@irishpanda8648 3 жыл бұрын
Oh wow you’re alive? Thought North Korea got you
@kirklurkpu4470
@kirklurkpu4470 3 жыл бұрын
Every language is an art, and pitch accent isn't discounted from Japanese's unique syntax and grammar. Pitch accent is part of that tool, it's a small part yet produces a big impact. Of course this is my opinion because I don't want people fighting here and there. Just study pitch accent, it's important.
@FlowUrbanFlow
@FlowUrbanFlow 3 жыл бұрын
I love that despite you and George not exactly agreeing and sharing same ideas that you guys can collaborate in some kind of different ways and still produce constructive content for the community
@FlowUrbanFlow
@FlowUrbanFlow 3 жыл бұрын
Halfway through the video, As much as I love George I believe that every point you are making is extremely valid. I love that you pointed out that it is good enough and will be understood by most people because I think that is generally the vibe that George aims for with his learning curriculum whereas I think that your methods are more pointed towards perfectionism which isn't necessarily a bad thing but may not be everybody's goal
@LympyDownunder
@LympyDownunder 3 жыл бұрын
I really enjoy both yours and George's respectful discussion on this and I think you are both correct, the difference is in the subtlety of the learner. All learners should know the basics of pitch accent which allows them the opportunity to unlock how much focus they place on it during their studies. Knowing the basics can aide in imitation early when listening, however getting it wrong doesn't impede understanding so shouldn't be a concern as you can still be fluent without it.
@Snugboy
@Snugboy 3 жыл бұрын
Matt bro stop I NEED TO immerse but your content is too good 😭😭😭😭😭
@EXTREMEKIWI115
@EXTREMEKIWI115 3 жыл бұрын
FAX
3 жыл бұрын
I discovered pitch accent because in a conversation I meant to say one thing and it sounded like something completely unrelated because of the pitch I used, and a Japanese person pointed it out to me. So yes, pitch accent might not be the be all, end all of Japanese language learning, but if you dismiss it as "unimportant" I would conclude you just don't know what you're talking about.
@mathew2378
@mathew2378 3 жыл бұрын
I like to think of it as like syllables in English. If you pronounce SYllable as in syLLAble, it may sound wierd
@xXJ4FARGAMERXx
@xXJ4FARGAMERXx 3 жыл бұрын
@@mathew2378 while using English's stress patterns as a metaphor is better than nothing at all, it's not even half story. In english the difference between 1-"SYllable" and 2-"syLLAble" is *stark* no.1-length is 2-1-1 no.2-length is 1-2-1 no.1-volume is 3-1-1 no.2-volume is 1-3-2 no.1-pitch is 2-1-1 no.2-pitch is 1-3-1 And lastly, the phonemes themselves are different: SYllable is pronounced /ˈsɪləbəl/ Meanwhile syLLAble is pronounced /ˈsɪlæbəl/ In japanese though, the length is the same, the volume is the same, the phonemes are the same, the _Only_ difference is pitch.
@manoloparra4772
@manoloparra4772 3 жыл бұрын
Un saludote, Rafy!
@kirklurkpu4470
@kirklurkpu4470 3 жыл бұрын
Same, I really thought pitch accent concept doesn't exist, when I heard that Japanese is a flat language. That was the biggest lie 😭
@ultraman6950
@ultraman6950 2 жыл бұрын
Japanese people don't give a shit about pitch-accent. Since when that person you're talking about became the rule?
@EXTREMEKIWI115
@EXTREMEKIWI115 3 жыл бұрын
When worlds collide, you can run, but no can hide.
@Griffdog21
@Griffdog21 3 жыл бұрын
You'll laugh so hard you'll swear you died
@Bopsterjazz
@Bopsterjazz 3 жыл бұрын
I think you both have very good points. I think George is guiding us through the summit of the mountain, getting us more familiar with the terrain. While you're basically a pro climber who comes down off the cliff to show us the stuff you've found at the top. Like, yeah, it's interesting and important, but it's just not something very early beginners should be concerning themselves with until they have more of a grasp on what they're actually learning.
@jodida10
@jodida10 3 жыл бұрын
I mean when I learned English at some point I realized how important intonation and pronunciation in the language are, so I suppose in Japanese it's the same. Like the word "record" used as a noun has different stress than used as a verb.
@sk8_bort
@sk8_bort 3 жыл бұрын
That's not pitch accent though.
@Michaelatkins15
@Michaelatkins15 3 жыл бұрын
@@sk8_bort he didn't say it's pitch accent tho lol
@sk8_bort
@sk8_bort 3 жыл бұрын
@@Michaelatkins15 I mean, this whole discussion was about pitch accent, but I guess you're right XD
@TokyoXtreme
@TokyoXtreme 3 жыл бұрын
@@sk8_bort Pitch accent is the manifestation of pronunciation and intonation in Japanese, as is stress accent in English. They are completely analogous.
@philipdavis7521
@philipdavis7521 3 жыл бұрын
Basic intermediate level learner here: I can't speak from expertise, but it seems to me that the most efficient way to learn any language is to make sure you don't pick up any mistakes early that you then have to 'unlearn'. Get things right first, and you'll learn quicker and more efficiently. This is why listening and reading 'natural' Japanese is so much better than using simplified teaching guides. Dogans pitch accent courses are way beyond my personal needs but just understanding what pitch accent is and when and how to use it has been a big help for me in learning how to 'hear' Japanese and in the importance in following natural rhythms when talking. Incidentally, on the point of Japanese people and pitch, non of my Japanese friends seem to know much about pitch, but then again, how many English speakers know what a stress accent is?
@papafhill9126
@papafhill9126 3 жыл бұрын
It's funny, because George is still speaking as an English speaker with stress-accenting words. When he said "えいご" it was like saying, "Therefore" where we stress the first syllable, like he was trying to put emphasis in the word "English" to make a point.
@yaboitroy4101
@yaboitroy4101 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I actually mentioned this in a comment as well but it’s one of the super common pitch accent mistakes English speakers made since it’s how you would stress words in English. Japanese people don’t emphasize words in the same way, or in ways that compromise the pitch accent. I remember Dogen giving an example where he stressed the が in 学校 as well when he wanted to emphasize it.
@moonlitspud
@moonlitspud 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah it's a super easy mistake to make. Same with changing tone to indicate a question in a tonal language. I often need to stop myself from instinctively rising my tone at the end of a name when asking a taxi driver to take me somewhere in Thailand.
@bookwormbon482
@bookwormbon482 3 жыл бұрын
Dang this is complicated! How do you guys learn this?
@papafhill9126
@papafhill9126 3 жыл бұрын
@@bookwormbon482 Tae Kim's Grammar guide, immersion (simply listening to the language for many long hours), reading material in the target language, and having a practice buddy who knows the language. That's my tactics and I don't really try that hard to learn it.
@babygorl9541
@babygorl9541 3 жыл бұрын
@@papafhill9126 i think they were asking how you guys learn pitch accent, not the language in general
@bensanchez6912
@bensanchez6912 3 жыл бұрын
As a beginner in Japanese I am very grateful for these videos from George and Matt, they really care about creating relevant content for people studying Japanese. They both care about teaching in their own way and are willing to create constructive content, not just bland content to attack the other, but instead discuss important points regarding the art of studying japanese. Thank you guys for all you do :)!
@ueomega
@ueomega 3 жыл бұрын
I'm Japanese and I think it's important to set a clear goal. If you just want to communicate with Japanese people, you unironically don't have to go out of your way to be a linguistics nerd. But if you want to sound natural and completely fit in, you have to because if you're not a child anymore you can't learn everything just by immersion and you're gonna need additional information about concepts such as pitch accent. To be completely honest, listening to someone like George is like I'm listening to some dialect of Japanese I've never come across. I can totally understand what he's saying, but it always feels kind of off. But Japanese me can't point that out. 😓
@WolffStaedtler
@WolffStaedtler 3 жыл бұрын
I don't understand people who denigrate others who try to be good at something. It happens in every pursuit not just language pursuits, but it's an attitude I often see in native English speakers who study other languages. Trying to learn good pronunciation isn't the same as trying to be perfect and it's not a waste of time.
@Guyomar
@Guyomar 2 жыл бұрын
Agreed. It's a way for people who don't want to do the difficult work to absolve themselves without guilt yet still be able to brag about speaking "great" Japanese or whatever other language. They try to pull others down to their level so that no one is truly great.
@nahshondevose4610
@nahshondevose4610 3 жыл бұрын
I think you both make good points about pitch accent. It seems that your priorities in terms of Japanese speaking are different so your opinions will always clash. George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation. While your priority is to reach a native level of speaking. For people learning the language, I do think that George is a good place to start, because If you focus on accent right from the beginning I do think you will become discouraged along with the thousands of kanji that your trying to remember.
@Hooga89
@Hooga89 2 жыл бұрын
"George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation." Yeah and if you pronounce every word wrong, communicating with someone is actually very difficult.
@ジョシュ-k4u
@ジョシュ-k4u 3 жыл бұрын
This really relates to every language when you think about it. When I hear someone speaking Spanish I can tell almost instantly that they aren’t a native speaker by their pronunciation. As you said, the message is still getting across but hearing mistakes over and over can be distracting when you’re having a long conversation.
@WayofRamen
@WayofRamen 3 жыл бұрын
Really? I live in Hawaii where we have immigrants from all areas of Asian with strong accents here but it's never really distracting or hard to have conversations. Maybe I'm just used to it since I've been around it my whole life.
@ジョシュ-k4u
@ジョシュ-k4u 3 жыл бұрын
@@WayofRamen I don’t think it’s hard to have conversations but what’s distracting is hearing a word pronounced the wrong way, it doesn’t stop me from getting what they are saying but I’m just thinking about what they said that didn’t sound natural is all. I guess what I’m saying is if you were to speak to someone who is native in your language you rarely hear a mistake in pronunciation so when you do hear it in conversation it sticks out.
@pavelmartinez4617
@pavelmartinez4617 3 жыл бұрын
@@ジョシュ-k4u then I shouldn’t speak to anyone Japanese until I have mastered pitch accent so not to bother them with my speaking?? That makes no sense my friend. And as a fellow native Spanish speaker I am ashamed you look down on those who take the time and effort to learn our beautiful language when is not “native level” like you mentioned in your comment.
@gyroninjamodder
@gyroninjamodder 3 жыл бұрын
@@pavelmartinez4617 He never said anything close that. He just said that it is distracting when people make mistakes, not that he looks down on people who make mistakes. Also I am not sure where you got the idea that you have to master pronunciation before you talk with someone. Just like how you can make word choise mistakes and grammar mistakes when speaking you can also make pitch accent mistakes. When speaking a language it is inevitable that you will make a mistake.
@ジョシュ-k4u
@ジョシュ-k4u 3 жыл бұрын
@@pavelmartinez4617 I never said any of that. All I’m saying is that it’s noticeable to a native speaker when you hear a non native speak the language. Also I don’t look down on anyone learning any language, the more languages everyone speaks the more we can better understand each other instead of focusing on what makes us so different.
@brownbricks6017
@brownbricks6017 3 жыл бұрын
Don't neglect phonology when learning languages in general.
@brownbricks6017
@brownbricks6017 3 жыл бұрын
*Cough cough* Xiaoma
@Geo-st4jv
@Geo-st4jv 3 жыл бұрын
@@brownbricks6017 yeah I don't speak Mandarin and I know for a fact there's no way his Chinese pronounciation is really that great huhu
@Nifuruc
@Nifuruc 3 жыл бұрын
@@Geo-st4jv How do you know if you don't speak Mandarin? Maybe you should make an effort to learn a language yourself before you start the trashtalk... "for a fact"...
@blahblahsuperanon
@blahblahsuperanon 3 жыл бұрын
@@Geo-st4jv Even if it's not, why do people care so much? I'm a native English speaker and there are so many English learners with terrible accents. Idc bc I know they're trying. As long as I can mostly understand them, that's good enough for me.
@kodyrobinson7479
@kodyrobinson7479 3 жыл бұрын
@@blahblahsuperanon and they probably have a flawless accent in their native language as most people tend to....
@megamannt125
@megamannt125 3 жыл бұрын
I think George's main point is he doesn't want new learners to get overwhelmed and think about quitting and that they should only learn pitch accent if they're very enthusiastic about the language, and I think that's the fair point to make.
@remsy9935
@remsy9935 3 жыл бұрын
They thing is tho, which kind of negates his whole argument, is that in the refold method pitch accent is not focused on/studied until wayyy far in the process. By the time its recommended u start working on ur pitch accent, u will have been learning the language for so long that ur already committed. Its not something that is supposed to be studied as a beginner. Im interested to see how this is discussed in the debate.
@megamannt125
@megamannt125 3 жыл бұрын
@@remsy9935 Of course, but a lot of beginners do stumble upon videos about pitch accents and then feel like it's too much. I saw several people in George's comments who said things like "I was discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent but your video made me feel better".
@donpax8959
@donpax8959 3 жыл бұрын
​@@megamannt125 I bet most people like that won't even seriously learn Japanese, because if they "discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent" instead of being "excited to learn this new "stress system" in the language they would love to learn" or smth like that, it means they don't truly want to learn Japanese, they're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that approach, it's just George should've said "it's okay to not care about pitch accent if you're just having fun learning languages" or smth like that, but not "pitch accent is not important"
@joegriffithsmusic
@joegriffithsmusic 3 жыл бұрын
True, but passing that of as something that's not necessary at all isn't the best move, in my opinion. If it's important to someone who wants to sound as close to native as possible, then it's definitely important to learn. You literally won't be able to sound near native without it, but again as loads of people said if you understand that your Japanese is going to be ok but never really near perfect then not learning pitch accent is completely cool too! I just think putting a video out saying that it's dumb and people shouldn't learn it is in itself kinda dumb.
@nahte-
@nahte- 3 жыл бұрын
Okay, but the way he makes the point is totally wrong. He’s making it seem like it’s a cardinal sin to study pitch accent. “YoUr bRaiN WiLL LiTeRaLLy eXpLoDe!” I mean, come on, really? He’s just being so childish, and it makes him look really unintelligent. Like, just look at the title of his video “Pitch Accent Is Stupid.” If he really wanted to only convey that he didn’t want learners to feel overwhelmed, he could’ve picked like literally any other title rather than the obnoxious one that he chose.
@human47134
@human47134 10 ай бұрын
fluency first, then pitch accent. learning japanese is hard enough as it is, it's considered one of the hardest on the rosetta stone ranking up there with arabic. It's hard enough learning non-latin characters, different syntax, etc to tell people to learn pitch accent on top.
@アナスジーラニー
@アナスジーラニー 8 ай бұрын
If you're fluent, then it would too late to fix your pitch accent lol
@shinobukomaki2112
@shinobukomaki2112 3 жыл бұрын
Pitch-accents vary according to dialects. When learners of Japanese speak Japanese, I often find myself trying to detect which dialect they are familiar with and based on. Some of them might have stayed somewhere in Japan and have friends that speak a dialect among them. I don't think it's necessary to follow a specific set of the 'correct' pitch accent, that is, a specific dialect including the standard Japanese, because all the speakers I've come across so far are quite intelligible as long as they don't try to speak very very quickly. On the other hand, you are much easier to listen to, when following a specific set of pitch-accent. So I think it's up to learners.
@FDE-fw1hd
@FDE-fw1hd 3 жыл бұрын
Yes but knowing standard is safe I think. Because most people know it and it's much easier. I mean much easier for me to understand correct pitch
@ウドン-m2q
@ウドン-m2q 3 жыл бұрын
Exactly. Even native speakers (especially people who lived in several places) mix up accents all the time.
@-yuyuko5297
@-yuyuko5297 3 жыл бұрын
For me, pitch accent was worth it to learn besides just improving pronunciation. 1. It helped me greatly with my listening skills. When you learn pitch accent, you naturally pay closer attention to what the other person is saying. 2. It's not an endless pursuit like vocabulary or grammar. While there might always be a word/grammar point you don't know about, after you learn how to hear pitch and the rules of pitch accent (particles, verbs, adjectives, compounds, etc) you can just pick up accent from audio alone. I'm still going to learn all the rules because I'm a nerd, lol 3. My teachers start pitch from lesson 1 in the textbook so that you don't have to correct your mistakes later. Bad habits die hard after all. 4. It just feels good to speak proper Japanese with the right intonation. I love learning Japanese even more now.
@Mojo702
@Mojo702 Жыл бұрын
I watched that pitch accent video; it was one of the first I came across from your channel. I loved it. Would like to see more of those.
@Naoko1875
@Naoko1875 3 жыл бұрын
If something seems difficult to learn, your mind will always try to tell you that you do not really need to improve in this specific area and that your life will be more or less the same with or without this additional skill. So it’s good to have some other sources beside your own thought patterns.
@KingProbherbs
@KingProbherbs 3 жыл бұрын
I was literally watching that video when I got the notification for this one 🤣
@elitist8159
@elitist8159 3 жыл бұрын
That Aot skit of yours you did awhile ago was awesome bro
@KingProbherbs
@KingProbherbs 3 жыл бұрын
@@elitist8159 haha that's funny getting recognized here thank you
@lalalalalala9333
@lalalalalala9333 3 жыл бұрын
When I was in college I learnt Japanese for two years, pitch accent was never mentioned. So I'm really not sure how important the pitch accent is. Then again, I still consider myself a beginner. Thinking about this logically, imagine the number of foreigners who come to the United States and speak English with an accent. When the person speaks, do we focus on their accent or do we focus on the conversation we're having? I've met so many people with an extremely high level of English and they still had an accent, yet our conversation were very fun and intriguing. To my understanding, language is a tool you use to communicate with people. Therefore it's probably not necessary for someone to stress themselves out over sharpening it like a knife. Lastly, I hope people are not discouraged to start learning Japanese from all this talk on pitch accent. The language is already quite challenging (for native speakers of English) as it is. What's the point of adding another layer to that?
@pavelmartinez4617
@pavelmartinez4617 3 жыл бұрын
I really appreciate your point regarding language learning being hard on its own and how the most important thing is to get your message across.
@humanbean3
@humanbean3 3 жыл бұрын
i think the point is just to acknowledge it at least. your brain will do the rest if you let it. once you perceive it there wont be any extra effort involved.
@TokyoXtreme
@TokyoXtreme 3 жыл бұрын
My university textbook “Japanese the Spoken Language” introduced pitch accent from the very first chapter, and the entire book (words and sentences) was diagrammed.
@monkut
@monkut Жыл бұрын
Same, it was introduced but not stressed or tested. I'm fuent, but having not really studied pitch, my pitch is off, but as mentioned it rarely causes comunication issues.
@koutta-idiomas8118
@koutta-idiomas8118 3 жыл бұрын
12:11 That really hit me. 3 years ago my channel used to be called KouttVsJapan because of this community. That's UNTIL I noticed all the ego and all the "red pill; blue pill" thing there was going around on the discord server (when it used to cost like 1-3usd to get into). I immediately got out and changed my name and went on my own with the learning (to be honest was a bit lonely). I'm glad you guys changed that and seems to be a little bit more modest and friendly now.
@megazoned3973
@megazoned3973 3 жыл бұрын
As Matt points out, he and George are Gaijin. Japanese people will not be concerned with their pitch accent. Of course if you say something wrong you’re gonna get a word repeated for clarification. The problem when being a Gaijin speaking with a good accent is Japanese people will think you can speak Japanese when you can’t. It’s almost better in the beginning to sound like a foreigner..
@zenkichihitoyoshi9513
@zenkichihitoyoshi9513 3 жыл бұрын
My 2 cents: when learning another language, be sure to understand what level you're trying to achieve. I'm Italian, English is my second language and I took French in high school. While I studied a lot more about English and the immense variety of pronunciation differences, I wasn't very good with French (I can read it, write it but speaking is much harder). I still think I achieved what I was looking for (a good level of English to visit or watch English related countries/content and a good enough level of French to be able to read French literature or news). I wouldn't go that far like George and say "this is useless"; when I hear a foreigner speaking Italian, I can clearly identify whether they're at a native level or not. I wouldn't know why it wouldn't be the same for another person.
@danielh.3746
@danielh.3746 3 жыл бұрын
That blue font on the thumbnail looks awfully familiar
@NoMagicHackz
@NoMagicHackz 3 жыл бұрын
確かに標準語でも、発音、イントネーション間違えてたら勘違いされる場合が多い。その上、他の言語と同じく、pitch accentと人々の独特な発音によって大体どこら辺から育てられて来たのか分かることが多いのでそれももう一つの大切なところだと思った。いつも面白い動画を作ってくれてありがとう~日本に住んでいるハーフから(人''▽`)
@AusJapan
@AusJapan 2 жыл бұрын
As an English native speaker that can immediately pick up on a foreigner's (English) accent, I have never once thought that it was to their detriment, and neither will a Japanese person think this about you. All it does is add to your charm. Word choice is far more important, as word choice can change the meaning of something entirely. For example, a beginner studying the language might think お世辞 means 'compliment' (positive nuance), when actually it means 'lip-service' (negative nuance). Don't get me wrong, Matt delivers a great message and I think that pitch accent is also very important, but it will not prevent you from being understood (unless you are woefully bad). One thing I do think though, is that the fastest way to fix pitch accent is though communication with Japanese speakers, on a daily basis. If you think 'I cannot communicate with Japanese speakers every day', then that leads me to my next point. Why are you trying to perfect a speech pattern that you do not live inside of? Embrace who you are, and fix things one by one as they cause communication issues, or as Japanese becomes a regular part of your life. Nobody will judge you apart from you, especially not Japanese people that have been studying English their whole lives yet cannot speak English at all.
@Oldybker1
@Oldybker1 2 жыл бұрын
Very informative. I'm glad I watched this now at the beginning of my Japanese journey. This will save me time by getting it right from the beginning before trying to fix bad habits later.
@SmartJapanHacks
@SmartJapanHacks 3 жыл бұрын
I agree with you that pitch accent is important. The classic example is the difference between hashi as in chopsticks (箸) and hashi as in bridge (橋). It would be difficult to think of a time where you would be misunderstood because of this due to context, but it's still a good idea to speak correctly as much as you can. I have noticed in practice though that some Japanese people pronounce the same word with a different pitch accent. As a result, I've started to pronounce some words differently than the average person as well. An example is sushi. Anyone else had this experience?
@guigui78340
@guigui78340 3 жыл бұрын
"can have chopsticks please?" but then the waiter brings a bridge
@SmartJapanHacks
@SmartJapanHacks 3 жыл бұрын
@holklus That would be funny 😄 Maybe you could have chopsticks shaped like a bridge as a compromise.
@guigui78340
@guigui78340 3 жыл бұрын
@@SmartJapanHacks lol
@ウドン-m2q
@ウドン-m2q 3 жыл бұрын
The 箸-橋 rule is completely opposite in the west. Even within a prefecture, there are lots of different accents. Personally, I automatically switch pitch accents depending on the person I’m talking to.
@DougalBayer
@DougalBayer 3 жыл бұрын
Minimal pairs with different accents are cute, but hardly the rule. Many words have no “accent” or pitch drop at all. The most important rule is, speak Japanese by oscillating between two pitches about a musical third or fourth apart. Westerners don’t know how to do that. The second part of the rule is, that in the steady stream of syllables, the beginning of words are marked by a rise or fall in pitch. You must listen for that to understand what words you’re hearing! The Dead Man’s Rule applies. Only the dead can stop doing anything, such as “stop putting stress into Japanese words.” But we the living can learn new behaviors to replace bad habits. Such as, learning how to chant, alternating low and high pitch, every time we speak Japanese. Only then can we really hear and understand spoken Japanese at speed. Or pick up where the “accent” or pitch drops are in some words.
@lastninjaitachi
@lastninjaitachi 3 жыл бұрын
Sounded so french Canadian when messing up the English pitch accent haha.
@yoshithesage
@yoshithesage Жыл бұрын
As someone who speaks another Asian pitch accent language, Cebuano, I can attest that we do hear all the pitch errors when a foreigner speaks. We definitely notice, but we're nice about it, since it's uncommon for people to learn Cebuano, and we can understand what the person is saying. If they really want to improve their pronunciation, they can ask for help. For example, the difference between afternoon and Japan in Cebuano is a high pitch on one syllable. First syllable pitch is afternoon (hápon), second syllable pitch is Japan (hapón). Cebuano also has many Non pitch words, which makes it pretty hard for speakers of any language where there's almost always a pitch somewhere, often accompanying the stressed syllable. Coming from another pitch language, I think the first point is applicable, where I can get by on what I hear cause it's pretty distinct to me. For most other speakers, I would definitely recommend practicing to hear pitch and learning to separate it from stress, which is also where most of the mistakes George makes are. He stressed the Ei in えいご and pitched it that way, and the same with にほんご, and many other words. In English the pitch comes with the stress, so it's not something that's ever talked about, which makes it seem like English is not a pitch language, but it does have pitch. It's like the difference between the noun and verb form of progress: /'proh-gress/ vs /pruh-'gress/ The verb form starts with a low pitch and rises on the stressed syllable. Learning to hear and separate pitch from stress will help in both hearing and speaking Japanese better.
@rrrmil
@rrrmil 3 жыл бұрын
Your videos are so much on point - very satisfying to listen to! Keep up this great work Matt!
@aphorg7008
@aphorg7008 3 жыл бұрын
Recently, I've been considering the importance of pitch accent to fluency, and I guess I have complicated ideas about it. I have done very little "book learning" of Japanese in favor of learning primarily from participating in real-life conversations (whether spoken or over text). Being a pretty good mimic and having a habit of repeating what I hear, I have long been at a point where I get specific compliments on my intonation and fluency, but I am also aware that I have a limited ear for pitch. When you reach this level of fluency though, it can and does come up in conversation because as you mentioned, native Japanese speakers frequently catch themselves and each other making mistakes in pitch or intonation. Often it's a side effect of regional dialects having different patterns, but the fact is that it's noticeable enough that you can often tell someone's "not from around here" just from those "mistakes." So while I recognize that it is definitely an important element to real fluency and getting closer to native-level Japanese, the fact that even native speakers often disagree on pitch patterns gives me a good excuse to continue avoiding that kind of sit-down studying that I really don't enjoy.
@kurumusic
@kurumusic 3 жыл бұрын
I am native Japanese and oh my goodness, YOU NAILED IT!!! If we listen to you and George reading exactly the same sentences, trust me, 100% of Japanese native speaker would judge you are way too fluent than George. You are the best!
@NatsumiFukada
@NatsumiFukada 3 жыл бұрын
すご…こんな感じで音程を一つ一つ勉強してるんや…私の英語のモチベーションになるわ、今のレベルに満足せず細かいところまで習得します!
@kaistigerboy
@kaistigerboy 2 жыл бұрын
Pitch accent is important I’m married to a Japanese and my wife always comment’s when my accent is wrong eg high and low tones, and my Japanese is very basic
@Rationalific
@Rationalific 3 жыл бұрын
Well said. I can't say that I'm good at all at pitch accent, or Japanese in general. However, I understand that it makes one sound fluent. And that's basically it. Most adults who learn a new language...maybe moving to another country in the process...NEVER speak with a natural local accent. George Trombley is like that, and that's fine. Just like a French or Japanese or Mexican person who moved to America will almost undoubtedly not sound American, neither will most foreigners who live in Japan. So in one way, it's not all that important if you can listen to an immigrant with no problems. But if you want to sound natural, then it's a must. It just comes down to how much you actually want to sound natural. At any rate, listening out for local pronunciations is worthwhile, even if you can never mimic it. Heck, I can't even speak like an Australian or British person except in (largely stereotypical) pre-memorized phrases.
@zeymort3926
@zeymort3926 Жыл бұрын
I think they both make good points in their own way, but I also feel like Matt isn't fully comprehending George's basic argument. Go watch George's video, and then watch this one again and you'll see what I mean. For another perspective, Steve Kaufmann also has a video about this topic called "Pitch Accent: Is It Important?" in which he basically agrees with George.
@SenatorDodo09
@SenatorDodo09 3 жыл бұрын
the easiest example when conveying the importance of pitch accent is to look at english words with a verb meaning and a noun meaning. Lets take "record". For words like this, you stress the first part if you want to use the noun meaning and the second part if you want to use the verb meaning. Sure, you can understand it, it just takes more effort to understand and it stands out
@blueblimp
@blueblimp 3 жыл бұрын
I like your point that the most important thing is to learn to hear it. I'm musically-trained so that's not too hard for me. I also enjoy putting words in OJAD and pressing the button that plays the accent for all the conjugations.
@flaviospadavecchia5126
@flaviospadavecchia5126 3 жыл бұрын
I have definitely been pointed out pitch accent mistakes even in a non-learning environment. For example, I meant to say "plate" (sara), but they thought I was talking about someone named Sarah, so they had to pause me and ask for clarification.
@jonathanzuniga4087
@jonathanzuniga4087 3 жыл бұрын
7:38- 7:50 I really loved that philosophy about pitch accent to learn all kind of languages
@高木正弘-e9z
@高木正弘-e9z 2 жыл бұрын
ピッチアクセントが間違ってる外人さんは多いからすぐ「あ、この人、外人だな」ってすぐ気付く。 すぐわかる。まあ「間違っている」というよりはそれは方言みたいなもんだけど。
@Lishamisha22
@Lishamisha22 3 жыл бұрын
I had came across pitch accents when I acquired a book by Gene Nishi. It felt a little much for me while trying to learn a few sentence structures. Now that I’m studying it even more to make up for lost time, I’m doing my best to incorporate some pitch accents on words I already know. I’m grateful for this content and to do my best to notice it more. It also gives me a new goal to work towards as well. Keep up the great work.
@miinintapple
@miinintapple 3 жыл бұрын
すごい誕生日プレゼントです🎁🎊 ありがとございます
@spkgyk
@spkgyk 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! I’d like to also point out something you missed that further strengthens your argument. The mistakes he makes aren’t on even remotely rare words. The mistakes are on some of the most common words in the entire Japanese language. He will have heard them literally tens of thousands of times and yet he still gets them wrong, so clearly imitation without foundational pitch accent knowledge is never going to work. It would be a different story if he only messed up on rare words….
@danielantony1882
@danielantony1882 3 жыл бұрын
@@valentinoleynik1255 Did you mean to say "Dialect"?
@fto1176
@fto1176 3 жыл бұрын
@@valentinoleynik1255 The dialects used in the most northern regions of Japan (like Aomori) are much closer to Tokyo Japanese than George's Japanese. More importantly, people from such regions who spend any significant time in Tokyo (or a lot of time conversing in and listening to Tokyo Japanese) are able to imitate Tokyo Japanese far, FAR better than George does.
@Handle0108
@Handle0108 3 жыл бұрын
Even if one is not looking for perfection/mastery learning at least the basic pitch accent will always be worth it. You don’t even have to learn everything about pitch accents which may be hard but at least some basic ideas to be able to distinguish between similar sounds. I think the point that Matt is trying to make is that, you don’t lose a lot by learning a little bit of pitch accent but you have so much to gain, so why not.
@fabacarini
@fabacarini 3 жыл бұрын
Damn, the channel is almost with 100k, congrats Matt this is amazing...
@TokyoXtreme
@TokyoXtreme 3 жыл бұрын
On a channel I like, Campanas de Japanese, the teacher addresses the question “do I need to learn the pitch accent for every single word I learn?” by answering “Yes you do. If you learn a new word in English or any other language, you’d check the pronunciation, wouldn’t you?”
@ShakMish
@ShakMish 3 жыл бұрын
Matt, I love your calm and collected response to what was a very energetic and polarising video that could easily be interpreted as a direct insult.
@raghavrao5221
@raghavrao5221 3 жыл бұрын
I'm learning Finnish but I still watch all your videos fully
@danget9887
@danget9887 3 жыл бұрын
me too lol I should be immersing right now.
@sebastiendumais4246
@sebastiendumais4246 3 жыл бұрын
I think you a d George are both somewhat right. I think you're right that you shouldn't completely ignore pitch accent but I think you shouldn't spend a long time actively studying it. My tutor basically tells me that I shouldn't concentrate on pitch accent beyond immitating. When reading, she will correct my accent only when it breaks my flow ( yes correct accent usually makes pronounciation somewhat easier) or when she thinks it sounds cringe to her.
@JoiskiMe
@JoiskiMe 3 жыл бұрын
My mother tongue is a pitch accent language and some of the leaders in church are Americans. I internally scream/correct them when they preach with the wrong pitch-accent. There's something alienating about it, even though I can understand what he's going for haha. Bad pitch accent slows the flow of the conversation (having to consider what they might be saying/making them repeat themselves), changes the meaning of words and makes you sound a bit "challenged" tbh. But I agree with George's philosophy of not over-complicating language learning. Throwing oneself into the challenge with bravery is much better than being anxious because of pitch-accent.
@sanderrr2909
@sanderrr2909 3 жыл бұрын
Matt and George bout to have a verbal fight, each screaming at a different pitch
@jbkhan1135
@jbkhan1135 2 жыл бұрын
The difference is, Matt's pitch will be correct ;-D
@esuutaa8530
@esuutaa8530 3 жыл бұрын
I agree that people tend not to give negative feedback on (pitch) accent mistakes. My native language is German and I know quite a lot of people who learn German and are very good at it (C level) and I still don't correct if they make similar mistakes. When you are during a conversation with a person and the person is making next to none mistakes in grammar, vocabulary but the only thing that is off is their accent, I feel it's quite rude to point it out all the time unless they specifically ask (as I have no trouble understanding them). I mean, as a native, you hear it immediately when someone's pronunciation is slightly off because your ears are trained to hear the "correct" version all the time. It's similar to how you can tell differences between dialects used by native speakers. I am originally from the south and I just need to hear two sentences from a person from the north to immediately hear that they are not from the same area as I am whereas a learner might not be able to pinpoint that difference.
@Musouka3
@Musouka3 3 жыл бұрын
You raise some fair points. It is good to be exposed to a lot of details in the language and to at least learn the basics. I have had people misunderstood what I've said because I pitched the word incorrectly. I still find myself agreeing more with George on this front. He might not have the most perfect pronunciation, but I still like the sound and flow of his language better than others who have mastered pitch accent. It feels that some are trying too hard and it shows. To be fair, I have only studied the basics of pitch accents so perhaps my opinions is not well-informed. I am open to change down the road. That said, I have never devoted much time to studying stress (or the IPA) in English. Do I sound like a native speaker? No, nor do I want to. The world would be less fun if everyone sounded like movie Americans. I suppose that Japanese, being the language of a homogeneous nation, is decidedly less flexible. The nature of the language also demands more accuracy. In the end, I agree that worshiping personalities and idolizing them is stupid. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Thanks for taking the time to making a video. I find the discussion intriguing.
@Durronko
@Durronko 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your insights! But i feel like I have to disagree with you on one specific point at 9:20 - 927: "If you cant perceive all the subtle differences in sound, then you're not gonna be able to imitate properly." - While certainly true when trying to actively imitate someone, it is not true when subconsciously imitating in my opinion, and I speak from experience there. When I was still very early in my japanese study, maybe half a year in, we had a japanese guy visiting our language class (~5 students). We all did basic introductions first, then he introduced himself. After that I asked him something and without actively thinking about it, I imitated his pronunciation and inflection very well, basically shadowing him after the fact. I was very surprised about that myself in that moment. Since then, while certainly still not perfect, I've been complimented many times on my pronunciation by japanese natives and I have never studied pitch accents. While I cannot disagree on the topic being important, it is not essential. it is possible to learn subconsciously, basically like babies do. Even for tone-deaf people like me ;)
@StuartJayRaj
@StuartJayRaj 3 жыл бұрын
Totally agree! You can't imitate what you can't hear.
@bofbob1
@bofbob1 3 жыл бұрын
4:35 "Most native speakers would prefer to hear natural, normal English". I wouldn't. I have no idea what "most" other people prefer, but for me there's a spectrum there. With very thick accents and broken grammar, sure, I would prefer something that required less effort to understand. But at some point of proficiency, even if there are still plenty things "wrong" with the accent, rhythm, etc., I honestly stop caring about it. In fact, in some cases I find that even adds a bit of charm, a bit of spice that is quite enjoyable to listen to. Dunno how that fits into the pitch accent debate though. 12:14 For whatever reason, people's identities get really wrapped up in this stuff. I just get a kick out of it when people bring up "the science" to try to justify whatever opinion they happen to favour. There's just not much you can extract from the data that can serve as an overarching method for language learning. One crucial point that distinguishes science from a lot of these online discussions/opinions is the consideration given to other variables that might explain a difference in outcome. And because of that, every method, regardless of how convinced X or Y person is about its efficiency, should be taken with a big grain of salt. Perhaps the reason people get so authoritative about all this stuff is precisely because most of it doesn't have a strong scientific backing? Compensation as it were? Who knows.
@FlowUrbanFlow
@FlowUrbanFlow 3 жыл бұрын
With this kind of shade I'm expecting a rap battle
@Snugboy
@Snugboy 3 жыл бұрын
Rap battle in Japanese come on make it happen matt
@Ryyza7
@Ryyza7 3 жыл бұрын
Hahah
@theblackryvius6613
@theblackryvius6613 3 жыл бұрын
「マット」 ジョージ先生バカめ、 アクセントのことを、 いつも小学生のように泣くぜ、 「ジョージ」 まだまだだねって言い出したアホ、 カッコいいと思いそう自分の箱、
@TheSilverKetchup
@TheSilverKetchup 3 жыл бұрын
I've been studying Japanese for about 6 years and I'm at the level where I've read about a dozen novels. While I was in Japan, I probably spent about a dozen hours studying pitch accent. And while I think I might've been able to hear pitch accent with another dozen hours of studying, I stopped. It was just too frustrating when I thought about the time I could have been studying new words and improving my general ability. While it'd be nice to know pitch accent, I can't justify it to myself when I'm still not satisfied with my general ability. I care more about speaking fluently than pronouncing perfectly. I'd like to believe I'll pick up pitch accent again, but perhaps after I'm fluent in reading and listening. It's not ideal, but at least I'm not practicing speaking much nowadays anyway.
@DougalBayer
@DougalBayer 3 жыл бұрын
It’s time to drop reading for a bit, subscribe to audiobook.jp, and start “shadowing” aloud at 0.5-0.7 speed. You’re ready. You’re not missing 1,000 kanji or 10,000 words. What you’re missing is 10,000 hours of listening and speaking. Pick narrators whose voices match yours, and subjects you already know but have no Japanese vocabulary in. You’ll experience the thrill of figuring out vocabulary on the fly. You’ll realize that even kanji are meant remind speakers of words they know by ear, not to teach words they haven’t heard. And you’ll find yourself speaking along with shockingly steady rhythm and loudness, while oscillating between two pitches about 3-4 steps apart. You’ll realize that Japanese is always sung, and you’ll never speak it again with American stress or pitch patterns..
@kougamishinya6566
@kougamishinya6566 3 жыл бұрын
The thing is, I've seen plenty of foreigners who can speak fluently but their pitch accent is all over the place and it sounds really awkward. Speaking quickly =/= speaking accurately. There are native Japanese who speak hesitantly and choose their words very carefully before speaking, but there are no Japanese who speak with the wrong pitch accent (for their dialect). If you want to stand out as having exceptional Japanese that's the thing to focus on.
@2000Smillie
@2000Smillie 3 жыл бұрын
I don’t speak Japanese, I’m a chinese major, however i can comprehend that Japanese pitch accent is not exactly the same to chinese tones, however i can comprehend they are both very important. I makes language easier on the ears. Some of the suggestions others mentioned like shadowing language really helped me
@bigh5446
@bigh5446 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for pointing this out. I have been learning for 6 - 8 months. I would like to try and improve my pitch accent now thank you so much.
@AnnaKuznetzova88
@AnnaKuznetzova88 3 жыл бұрын
I have done this. When I first learned English I would say thermomemeter as thermo-meter
@micke5735
@micke5735 3 жыл бұрын
I think these are fair points, and I as a native Swedish speaker feel much more comfortable listening to another native Swedish speaker. I have to put a little bit more effort in to listening to a non native speaker. With that being said, I have worked with foreign co-workers who spoke with an accent and I got used to it after a while and it doesn't feel taxing after some time has passed
@ianrexes1345
@ianrexes1345 3 жыл бұрын
Pitch important is someway and definitely will improve your standard Japanese accent. Japanese accent could differ or slightly differ from area to area since it is a country of multi dialect. Who are the native English Speaker? Is it the American, British, Australians, etc.. Does Americans likes only to hear American accent? Other than that it will be sound weird or not preferable? You prefer not to go other countries which speaks English but not American accent? Which American accent is the perfect accent? I guess American accent would slightly varies depending on the location as well.
@JUPITER11119
@JUPITER11119 3 жыл бұрын
Hello, from Portland, Oregon! Thank you so much for advocating pitch accent. In all 6 years of Japanese study in school and on my own, never once did I encounter the idea of pitch accent, until I discovered Dogen last month. I went from 100% confident in my Japanese accent to 0%, but it needed to happen for me to improve! Thanks again 🙏
@barsykgames2555
@barsykgames2555 3 жыл бұрын
Pitch accent study is essential for accent reduction. But a lot of people who OBSESS over it seem to develop a non-expressive robotic "flat" Japanese with proper pitch accent where the base pitch doesn't change. Kinda same thing that Chinese learners go through in the beginning stages but later get rid of. Natives don't talk like that all the time.
@nataio
@nataio 3 жыл бұрын
I've only been studying Japanese for a few months, and it's rough how strongly teachers disagree on every single aspect of it. One book (or channel) will teach you that a certain word is very rude, while another will tell you it's the only polite one. Same with pitch accent - some tell you it's extremely important, others say it's not that big of a deal. I didn't have this kind of experience when learning any other language. More than anything else it seems to be a matter of opinion (and to some extent probably a dick measuring contest, just as George and Matt said). I have decided not to worry about it for now and just focus on getting my listening comprehension to a point where I can understand Japanese news and TV in general - then I can attempt to mimic native speakers. Sure, I'll have built up bad habits by then, which will be hard to get rid off, but I'd rather do that than stop studying and reconsider my methods every couple of days because some guy on KZbin said I'm doing it wrong.
@lordazrielxiii7731
@lordazrielxiii7731 2 жыл бұрын
Being "good enough" is good enough for most people. Not everyone has to be a perfectionist in a chosen language. People usually just want to be able to communicate. Once you're able to communicate first, then of course you'll be able to correct and tweak your speaking with the help of native speakers AS YOU SPEAK TO THEM. Overly focusing on pitch when just starting out can turn people off and make them give up learning the language in the first place. Then nothing would matter.It's already hard enough to stay motivated. Let people learn in a nice and easy way so they can at least talk to natives and get further help. Nobody likes a stickler.
@foreseen8937
@foreseen8937 3 жыл бұрын
repping the Dogen merch for a pitch accent video, nice
@AlexSinclair
@AlexSinclair 3 жыл бұрын
Despite disagreeing with many points, this is a really well made argument.
@azul6638
@azul6638 3 жыл бұрын
I would like to know what points you disagree with if possible !
@AlexSinclair
@AlexSinclair 3 жыл бұрын
@@azul6638 no ❤️
@azul6638
@azul6638 3 жыл бұрын
@@AlexSinclair no problem ❤️
@daysandwords
@daysandwords 3 жыл бұрын
That aggressive black and white transition was freakin' epic.
@mimori8
@mimori8 Жыл бұрын
Pitch accent being important has to be the most exaggerated thing youtubers made up to sell you their shit lesson plans. It's probably last on the list of things to focus on. You're not gonna sound native before knowing lots of words and having lots of experience. Pitch accent is only a small part of that. Imagine if English teachers started making whole channels dedicated to stress in English. Such a small insignificant thing to focus on. It's strange. It's really just mystifying something that's really rather simple to make money, misdirecting newcomers in the process. And the funny thing is Matt's pitch accent isn't even perfect.
@Spooky.Boogie.xj0461
@Spooky.Boogie.xj0461 3 жыл бұрын
school is finishing, i just finished rrtk and getting through tae kim and considering tango my summer is gonna be lit with immersion
@user-tz1cv9wu8s
@user-tz1cv9wu8s 3 жыл бұрын
dont quit
@Spooky.Boogie.xj0461
@Spooky.Boogie.xj0461 Жыл бұрын
​@@user-tz1cv9wu8s still got it
@luuua3682
@luuua3682 3 жыл бұрын
i think whether or not you want to ignore pitch accent is entirely up to what level of fluency you want to reach. if you only wish to be able to communicate to get your ideas across fluidly then yeah pitch accent won't matter to you so much but if you're trying to really sound like a native then it's definitely important. it's all down to your own goals in learning japanese
@TokyoXtreme
@TokyoXtreme 3 жыл бұрын
Imagine speaking English without putting stress on words, and reading every word in a sentence with the same speed and intonation. Even if every word was the correct word, it would be impossible to understand for a listener. Pitch accent is not some advanced skill for “masters and experts”; it’s simple correct pronunciation.
@jbkhan1135
@jbkhan1135 2 жыл бұрын
@@TokyoXtreme agree completely. Too many people just use "I just want to communicate, I don't care about getting it right" as an excuse for being lazy.
@moonlitspud
@moonlitspud 3 жыл бұрын
Training to 'hear' pitch is definitely important. In learning tonal languages like Thai or Chinese, where tone changes the word entirely, it is often a strong stumbling block for beginners who just can't hear the difference between certain words. But after time paying attention to the differences carefully, you do train your ear/brain to perceive this difference. It’s like a barrier that you break through. When your brain tunes in, you’ve got it. If it was really that hard, it would make learning these languages impossible - but it just isn't. Japanese is for sure trickier than Thai (for a native English speaker), despite Thai's 5 tones. It's also a good tool to use if you want to learn other languages. Tonal languages like those above you'd get a head start, but both intonation and pitch is important in most languages (in English used to indicated emphasis, questions, subject etc).
@loupafoid
@loupafoid 3 жыл бұрын
honestly, I am pretty new to Japanese, but what you said about pitch accent and how someone needs to have an ear for it in order to improve his own pitch accent, is kind of like the sport that I play (Volleyball). If you only play without practising and not watching the top players play, you will only get better at playing with bad technique and you won't even know it.
@billambers7756
@billambers7756 3 жыл бұрын
I just had a remark about the fact that even though I learned English only by being immersed, people are telling me that my pronunciation is very good. So do we really need to learn pitch accent when massive exposure makes you get the right pronunciation, that is why i think it can help but only having big exposure to the language does a great job too.
@justjoshininjapan700
@justjoshininjapan700 3 жыл бұрын
If he averages that 8 mistakes every 30 seconds, for the whole two hour duration of that video....its almost 2,000 mistakes. Ughhhhh, guess I gotta pay Dogen for that lesson plan haha : )
@XgamersXdimensions
@XgamersXdimensions 3 жыл бұрын
just read the NHK accent dictionary. It's the best resource on Pitch accent there is
@joegriffithsmusic
@joegriffithsmusic 3 жыл бұрын
Dogen's pitch accent lessons are well worth it if you want to learn. Even just memorising the rules from the first 30 videos (which cover all types of verbs, adjectives, nouns and even sentence pitch accent) will really improve your accent. Stuff like how most 4 mora, 2 kanji nouns and na-adjectives don't have a down step, or how 4+ mora i-adjectives like おもしろい or はずかしい will have the down step on the second to last mora. These are all super easy rules to learn that will just improve your spoken Japanese very easily as long as your willing to learn them
@TokyoXtreme
@TokyoXtreme 3 жыл бұрын
@@XgamersXdimensions I paid the 5000 yen for the online version of the dictionary, and I have probably used it for 30-45 minutes a day for six months. It has rewired my brain, and was a great investment. I use the audio for my Anki flashcards too.
@お弁当-h2u
@お弁当-h2u 2 жыл бұрын
Well, I think it's probably easier for some people to hear pitch accent more than others (non-natives, I mean). I *think* I can hear it, maybe being a musician helps. I don't do a lot of speaking yet but I'm sure there will be plenty of room for improvement when I start having spoken conversations. Most foreign speakers of English have some sort of accent, but that usually doesn't take away much from their comprehensibility. Native English speakers can also make stress accent mistakes in English, and there are regional variations (UK's Adult vs USA's aDULT), but this can always be understood. I do remember an amusing incident when I was working in retail and a man came in with his wife to ask for "metal nighty clothes" - took me a while to realise he was saying "materNITY clothes" - only understood once he said to me "woman with baby." What I do find tricky to understand sometimes is what I call "call centre English." Many companies in the UK use overseas staff to take customer phone calls. Although these staff all speak grammatically perfect English, sometimes the stress accent is so flat it actually takes my brain a little longer to parse what they are saying.
@Slakenji
@Slakenji 3 жыл бұрын
Ah this brings back memories of “hating on Japanese from zero” which is how I’m sure a lot of us discovered your channel! I try to only break immersion for you two.
@raghavrao5221
@raghavrao5221 3 жыл бұрын
What is that? I searched KZbin but don't see it. I found this channel recently
@hiphopheadninethree
@hiphopheadninethree 3 жыл бұрын
@@raghavrao5221 LOL matt's channel used to be a lot different. brings a tear to my eye thinking about the good time (jk). I'm pretty sure those videos are private now.
@iliaantipin9919
@iliaantipin9919 3 жыл бұрын
Yea, Matt has lowered his ego a bit lately. I liked it though, the way he criticized eveyone back then :)
@richardharrow2513
@richardharrow2513 3 жыл бұрын
Илья Антипин Это что, как Вован Жопан, только успешный и не поехавший?))
@iliaantipin9919
@iliaantipin9919 3 жыл бұрын
@@richardharrow2513 ахах, ну у Вована эго вообще в небесах, и о последовательной критике в его речи вообще дело не идёт))
@No_Named_Nobody
@No_Named_Nobody Жыл бұрын
Pitch accent killed my motivation. I don’t know how to learn it without being overwhelmed
@diegooo0725
@diegooo0725 Жыл бұрын
Japanese people dont really give a fuck, just ignore the pitch accent it makes the language uselessly harder
@coolbrotherf127
@coolbrotherf127 Жыл бұрын
​@@diegooo0725that's terrible advice. It literally changes the words you're saying if you're saying them in the wrong pitch. It's disrespectful to the Japanese people to tell others to speak their language incorrectly because you can't be bothered to learn it properly.
@diegooo0725
@diegooo0725 Жыл бұрын
@No_Named_NobodyYeah because context does not matter at all right? plus i I have never seen any Japanese offended about this. What i meant is that if u are a begginer, leanring pitch accent will be overwhelming for no reason. Once you start developing a level of confidence you can start learning this if u want, but again, remember that you are a foreigner, japanese people don´t really care. keep learning !
@No_Named_Nobody
@No_Named_Nobody Жыл бұрын
@@coolbrotherf127 I know pitch accent changes the word. If you have any advice on how to learn it without losing my mind it would be much appreciated. I’m not sure what to do in regards to pitch accent
@inspirationalelite
@inspirationalelite 3 жыл бұрын
omg a 4k video. Thanks Matt! :D
@redredredtail
@redredredtail 3 жыл бұрын
It's the 80:20 rule in play, I learn 20& of dogen's pitch accent stuff and I bet it gave me 80% of benefits when interacting with Japanese people!
@AvioftheSand
@AvioftheSand 3 жыл бұрын
4:24 Lol, sounds like a French Canadian accent. That's exactly how Georges St. Pierre speaks.
@catisgod
@catisgod 3 жыл бұрын
I'm fluent in English, and having problems on the accent. I didn't expect that I would go back to sharpen my accent while learning Japanese from your videos.
@zarajday
@zarajday 8 ай бұрын
Pitch accent is only important if youre trying to sound native. At someone who has no plans on moving to Japan, I feel like people like me just dont need to spend 100s of hours learning how to speak with an awkward focus on sounding native.
@coolbrotherf127
@coolbrotherf127 6 ай бұрын
No, pitch accent doesn't matter only if you want to sound native. It matters if you want to be understood by native speakers. It's part of the pronunciation of the spoken language so native speakers will have a hard time understanding you if you don't speak clearly. It doesn't have to take a ton of extra time either if you learn it from the start instead of trying to learn it all at the end.
@ktdoty9921
@ktdoty9921 3 жыл бұрын
I think mandarin has something similar, and a lot of westerners focus on the tones rather than aspiration or the flow of the sentence when learning the phonetics of chinese
@FDE-fw1hd
@FDE-fw1hd 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah tones. It's a bit different
@ウドン-m2q
@ウドン-m2q 3 жыл бұрын
@@AJ-fo2pl I’m Japanese as well and 100 agree with your wife. PS Matt makes lots of pitch accent and intonation “mistakes”. I bet your wife will see that if she listens longer.
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