Mauser Model 1878 "Zig-Zag" Revolver

[@3DPT]

A lot of 3d printed revolvers use the zig zag cylinder design as a simple way to index the cylinder for firing. Its cool to see the roots of this design and its use today in printed revolvers.

[@robertborgeson1821]

I see your comment is four years old, and I'm sure the technology has come even further, but a 3D printed cylinder can handle chamber pressure?

[@vp21ct]

Wait. A german firearm with only ONE set of markings? No wonder they never sold well.

[@sirzack0002]

shepard1707 Honestly, I'm surprised it didn't have.. Nein markings..

[@Demospammer9987]

+Sir Zach *drumset falls down stairs and explodes*

[@anzaca1]

I know. The Germans usually mark everything, down to the screws.

[@n147258noah]

@@anzaca1 Did they forget to stamp the threads too?! Gah!

[@BIG-DIPPER-56]

NICE ! ! 😎👍

[@rahbaralhaq]

*Casually mentions zig zag in the last video* *Dose a review of it in the next video* Ladies and gentlemen, Ian McCollum.

[@nemolicious3647]

Colt 45 and two zig zags, baby that's all we need...

[@edigabrieli7864]

Party on.

[@BIG-DIPPER-56]

The malt ? ?

[@jimmyrayseafood6882]

Yup

[@declan11ful]

We go the mall after dark smoke that tumbleweed...

[@aelianaevergreen8955]

I've seen this comment before and I feel it is appropriate here: Overengineering level: Germany/10

[@clubtcb]

you, sir, have never seen the webley-fosbery

[@webtoedman]

During the cylinder closeups around 10:00 - 10:30, you can see from the machining marks that the shallow longitudinal slots were done with a horizontal milling machine - smooth bottom, tapered lead out, and the deeper camming slots were cut with a slot drill, presumably in a vertical machine, evidenced by the little swirl marks in the bottom of the groove, and the abrupt stop at the ends. It's difficult to think of an alternative way of doing it using the machinery of the period, but it must have been labour intensive, and expensive.

[@TruthSeekerD]

I think your 'slot drill' is actually an end mill. I was thinking that the machinery to grind little bits of tooling like an end mill was more of a feat than actually using it to make a wierd gun. The milling cuts into the walls of the cylinder right next to the chambers would make me scared to shoot it.

[@imadrifter]

Machinist Talk! Machine Shop Jargon! Metal Words!

[@Tr4wnet]

That cylinder design is impressive.

[@EDSKaR]

Due to the way the 'zigzag' works, it could be really easy to change the capacity or calibre of the guns without changing all your tooling. Essentially the frame would be unchanged and you'd just have a different barrel and cylinder, as a smaller cartridge could fit larger capacity you simply machine the grooves on the outside at a different angle to fit the different number of chambers. The same with a larger calibre, match those grooves up with the chambers and it would only need three components changed (Cylinder, ejector and barrel)

[@astrataway7077]

Those handles look suspiciously like sausages

[@alexreams1060]

It was a clever marketing ploy that failed when the military officials in charge of testing realized that they were not, in fact, composed of pork, and made loud noises when manipulated.

[@ekscalybur]

Mauser probably would have had better results with some good marketing. For instance, they could have advertised the pistols with the phrase, "Ours go up to 11!" :P

[@metalproofed3089]

nice try 1. that term woudn't work in german 2. "going up to 11" is based on gitar amps in the 1970s. a bit to late for a 1870s revolver

[@OlaJustin]

+Metalproofed I bet you are fun at parties. ;)

[@metalproofed3089]

+Ola Justin :D

[@michaelfoye1135]

Ian, thank you for making forgotten weapons, remembered weapons. I'm curious as to whether you have ever considered doing any gunsmithing? With your background and experience with such a wide variety of mechanisms I expect that you could be quite an interesting smith.

[@KRIMZONMEKANISM]

Cool revolver, but the flaw is evident, the gun pops up, instead of down, it becomes much more awkward to reload. And because of the revolving system it has, it is impossible to change its configuration It is bulky though and looks reliable, seems like it would get the job done.

[@lennykump8396]

It was intentionally built like this. Flipping it down wouldn't drop the cases out, meaning you'd have to turn it over anyways.

[@NouveauView]

I'd buy one if they made reproductions

[@aerofd]

That is a very cool revolver. It doesn't look that much more complex that a more conventional revolver. And in some ways looks more robust. Is there any failure data?

[@thesturm8686]

The worst thing imo is it opens upside down, otherwise it's pretty alright

[@DAKOTA56777]

The complexity isn't mechanical, if anything it has less moving parts than a normal revolver using that single lug to both rotate and lock the cylinder, instead of a hand to rotate and a bolt to lock. The complexity is in the machining of the cylinder, those grooves have to be very precise, while being cut into a round object, before the advent of computerised machine tools. It probably took them as long to make that cylinder alone as most other companies would spend on the entire gun.

[@AM-hf9kk]

@@DAKOTA56777 I agree that machining this by hand would suck. But since only the fore-aft cut is ramped, the actual machining operation for the zig-zag could easily be automated with period technology. You'd only need some fine meshed gears and a cam to control the timing of each movement. Watchmakers had been designing far more complicated machinery for centuries.

[@DAKOTA56777]

@@AM-hf9kk Evidently it's not quite so simple to set it up, as both this gun, and the Webley Fosbery (which used the same system of zig-zag cuts for cylinder timing) were expensive revolvers to produce. Possible, yes, but still more expensive and slower for not much extra gain over a traditional revolver. The complexity comes from the fact that these zig-zags are also responsible for the timing lockup of the revolver, which means they have to be near perfectly aligned with each chamber, which is more of a complicated process because it's a continuous line being made into a curved surface as the piece rotates. There is very little room for any kind of play in the system to be allowed. Whereas the locking notches on a traditional revolver are all independent little slots made with just a single cut at a single position, the cylinder isn't in continuous rotation as it's made, which basically negates the fact that it's round.

[@slome815]

@@DAKOTA56777 It's really not hard to make a spiral groove on a manual milling machine though. Most older dividing heads are set up with a driveshaft going to the back. The purpose of this is to be able to connect the dividing head to the handwheel of a milling machine by a simple gear train. This makes the dividing head rotate when you move the X-axis of the milling machine. This ofcourse also works with an automatic feed. Nowadays something like this would be done on a 4th axis on a CNC machine. But I could probably cut grooves like this on a cylinder, even with the incline on the straight grooves, in an hour or 3 on a manual machine, if the setup time is included. It would probably take no more then 15 minutes a piece for serial production on a manual machine (just for the grooves that is). You really just need a jig that centers the cylinder on the chambers for serial production. There are parts on this revolver that I see as way more complicated to machine on a conventional milling machine.

[@ryanmoore4717]

Some company should make reproductions of these, truly gorgeous revolvers.

[@gordonsalive9998]

Finally KZbin has got there shit together and stopped suggesting I want to watch videos on how to teach toddlers how to count.

[@magamexican6302]

Were the cylinder locking levers cracked? If so, was it from people trying to slam the guns back together with the cylinder in the wrong configuration?

[@KhromeXx]

this gun reminds me of the MODEL 1901 PROTOTYPE III WEBLEY-FOSBERY SEMI-AUTO REVOLVER.

[@KhromeXx]

have you ever Reviewed this Revolver??

[@thesturm8686]

I don't know about 3 years ago, but he had as in 2019

[@matejmatej3554]

I must tell you that I love your Channel it's one of the best on KZbin keep on the good work hi and greetings from Slovenia enjoy your day

[@Saldytuwas]

Does that protrusion also serve to make sure that the revolver doesn't break open upon firing?

[@eldsprutandedrake]

At this point, isn't the "We don't normally get a chance to look at ...."-line that is included in most videos kind of irrelevant? It's more a rule than an exception to see rare guns on this channel it seems :P

[@Kai-mg9gn]

I saw several of these on display at Saunders Memorial Museum in Berryville AR. Glad so see a video explaining how the action works. Thank you

[@Sleygar]

Here because of your 1883 Nagant video.

[@jdrose2465]

the guy that made the jackhammer used the same kind of mechanical cylinder

[@Steel_]

4:08 i honestly thought you were going to say they made a selectfire for a revolver in the 1800s, actually relieved its basically a safety lock.

[@Halinspark]

I get that breaking it open that way helps dump spent casings, but wouldn't it make more sense to make ease of reload more important? It does have that hefty extractor after all...

[@chapiit08]

Lt. Col. Fosbery probably took some ideas from the Mauser Zig-Zag for his design.

[@legendarynoob4862]

I really enjoy this series. Forgotten weapons is a great show. Keep it up!

[@johnparker497]

love the top breaks

[@LionofCaliban]

Very cool and I can see why they would fail a military trial. I see that moving cylinder and I just see something that could break off or get fouled. I also think that safety could cause problems, if it gets loose and drops from the middle to the lower position. I don't think they're ugly and that blue, is amazing. Still, if your competition beats you for being less complex, if that's not a sign to redesign I don't know what is.

[@odinlobogauta8634]

Little complex but not so much, if Uberti or someone makes a smokeless version of Zig Zag's will be popular and problems of fouling non-existent that benefits more the gun

[@desimonenoah]

From far away the handles straight up look like pickles

[@JackClockerinos]

These revolvers were the standard pistol for the Spanish Army in the Spanish-American war, until they managed to obtain the C96.

[@Killerlizzerd97]

the mauser brothers knew they messed up

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

Kind of clunky looking but pretty cool from a mechanical standpoint

[@kennyvancleave2422]

Ian, have you ever been offered a position with a firearms museum. If not, would you except one if offered.

[@hittinfoe383]

Fuck off mate...

[@deadflowers7017]

Play nice

[@BigWillyG1000]

I can see why Germany didn't want this but why take the primitive Reichsrevolver over superior foreign designs?

[@Christian-sq2bw]

Because you never want to depend on a foreign company for things you might use to fight their homeland with at some point. Its the same reason why countries try to secure all levels of petroleum production within their sphere of influence either before they go to war or as their opening move in a war.

[@roycesella9626]

Machanicly ingenious

[@ColonelBobfed]

I came across a Zigzag revolver a few years ago, but could never remember what it was, and on following this neat piece up, turns out it's the Webley-Fosbery. Noticed you did a video on that in 2012/

[@Pprokop87]

Ian, i think You made a video about shotgun or riffle with similar revolving cylinder. i can't remember now what was it... these two revolvers looks like a decent guns, but they have lots of small parts and precission works. they are realy complex for the time, too complex maybe?

[@olafspetzki]

Hey Ian, I think your german gets better :-) "Gebrüder" was nice, "berg" was still an english "berg", but overall much nicer as your first "Büchse" trials. Like always a very interesting video, thanks.

[@troy9477]

Martial revolvers are always interesting. U didn't mentiin the ballistics, but i am guessing medium weight bullets for the bore diameter, at about 700-750 fps. That is pretty typical for black powder. Probably very similar to standard 38 Spl ballistics (158 gr at 755 fps). I can see how tge design is too complex. A more typical rotating hand system would probably be better. Even geniuses like Mauser and JMB don't always make perfect products. Great video as always. Thank you

[@OZJBlank]

9:03 The caliber might not be anywhere on the frame, but you can see it on the cylinder with the pistol broken open

[@Ni999]

Good eye! It's at 5:26

[@666toysoldier]

That stud and groove looks a whole lot sturdier than a hand and star, and can't be more complex than a Smith & Wesson double action.

[@JonatasAdoM]

I'm glad revolvers are they way they are after watching this video.

[@HootOwl513]

Was the ''9mm'' cartridge mentioned 9mm Luger, [or Parabellum] 9x19mm, or another bullet design in the same caliber? The Luger case is optimised for semiautomatic function. [And came later, IIRC]

[@mart_en]

Why would the German government choose the primitive and very difficult to load Reichsrevolver, when they could have had a much better and quicker loading Mauser gun ?

[@micnor14]

Reminds me of the Pancor Jackhammer

[@jesulinicoviolao6053]

That's because usa is first world potency, while they have colt 45 or dragoons in Europe have that, but red 9 exceeds those needs

[@dewayneweaver5782]

Cool, that zigzag pattern looks familiar? Didn't a British Company use the same design on an automatic revolver?

[@robertborgeson1821]

Question for everyone. Why does the action bar come out the front so far? There are obvious reasons why thats not ideal and it seems unnecessary with the way the action is set up. The bar is attached to the hand that rotates the cyclinder. The hand/nub stops long before it exits the pistol. You just need your coil spring and the hand. The only reason i can see for a bar is to provide stability for the hand to help it ride down a track. I dont see any reason it needs to be that long and why you couldn't put the majority of the little bit of length it does need on the opposite side, inside the frame. Am i missing something here? Maybe so you cant break it open while its cocked but again nowhere near that much length would be required

[@gwheeler233]

I can see why these would fail military tests. Get any mud in the zig-zags and your revolver won't revolve anymore.

[@luiznogueira1579]

Love the quirky design, even If not very practical. Always wanted to take a closer look at this gun.

[@hugoanibalperalespuentes6593]

What was the power or ballistic of this two Mauser calibers? Which others most known calibers would they be comparable?

[@warricktyler6759]

Hey dude you are being used to advertise a 3D version of this . Cool

[@thesturm8686]

How?

[@johjoh4571]

thats actually really fuckin slick... not gonna lie. but that lock lever thing is rather troubling

[@pindacamp6120]

cedesi collezione pistole a pietra focaia,a luminello,spillo avancarica e retrocarica, ,automatiche regolarmente dichiarate e in blocco,

[@morelenmir]

Does the bar protrude when the trigger is pulled to ensure the gun is fully locked on discharge and also to ensure the action is not opened at that point either?

[@ellisbkennedy652]

Only the germans could make a simple gun this awkward and complicated

[@burnoutteamclubbtcp7283]

the C78 was actually in use with germany until it was replaced by the semi automatic C96 self loading pistol.

[@robert91rs]

Beautiful pistols and very cool engineering!

[@trainsbangsandautomobiles824]

Yep, way too complex to reload. Just give me a Colt SAA...

[@actuallyharuto2382]

I wish the german inventors come back to lif and make us cool shits like this.

[@BIG-DIPPER-56]

Kinda cool ! ! ! Wouldn't mind a reproduction ! ! ! 🙂😎👍

[@DirtCobaine]

Hey Rockstar please put this in the rdr 1 remake and rdr2 rerelease lol

[@sadektako2845]

En quelle matière est faite la crosse ?was ist das die material's der griff

[@Grarder]

That zig-zag pattern on the cylinder is very similar to the one on the semi auto Webley revolver. Do we know if this may have contributed to the concept of that design?

[@maciejpociecha6357]

Why does the RIA description say that they were in German military service for 20 years? I thought they were NOT adopted...

[@redram5150]

After WWI, Mauser built cars because the Versailles Treaty wouldn’t permit them to make guns. It’d be amusing seeing Ian doing a Jay Leno’s Garage format

[@robbiedickson3386]

can you do a video of a 1911 and two of these?

[@44WarmocK77]

Always wondered how that zig-zag system actually worked. :D Also, not surprising that the army rejected it, with all the critical parts of the mechanism (guiding grooves, main rod of the guiding lug/main spring) completely exposed and the somewhat wacky safety/opening mechanism design.

[@Ratrazor]

Yeah that's a really cool gun, I wonder what kind of cartridges though it actually use where they rimmed or semi rimmed cartridges. Obviously not the 9 mm luger that we're used to nowadays.It'd be cool if you could fire smokeless powder out of them.

[@WAQWBrentwood]

I love the novelty of things like this, But obviously in a military arm, simplicity, reliability wins. I'll take the Smith Schofield into battle, Though, id love to have one of these just because...

[@faenrir11]

Was that an original patent, this zig-zag revolving mechanism? It looks identical to Pancor Jackhammer, which makes me wonder if the latter was based on this particular model in the video.

[@crazyfvck]

Some pretty cool engineering on this one :) I like how the piece that extends when the revolver is cocked also serves the purpose of helping to keep the release latch locked closed.

[@robertborgeson1821]

I just asked about this in my own comment. My gripe with it is that your creating more problems and parts moving outside the frame and the same could be done with much less length. The bar barely needs to protrude out of the lever(doesn't need to at all if they designed it just the slightest bit different) to get it to lock, yet they have it coming out like an inch.

[@anthonyschofield7807]

Could I ask what the rear lever was for,many thanks

[@VDV90SHakal]

That case hardening though

[@rexmage]

Reloading this would have been a serious pain.

[@MrBioniclefan1]

By the way if you ever find a model 1901 springfield make a video on that sucker. Very interesting rifle in the development of the model 1903

[@lhmmhl1]

Any reason it has the slot in on the top above the cylinder?

[@runrin_]

commenting on another old video, but i'm surprised you didnt mention the pancor jackhammer while discussing this one. they both index in such a similar way. very neat concept.

[@zandyman96]

Does any one know how the loading process worked with the solid frame version? Wouldn't the cylinder cam make a loading gate very unsafe to load and unload?

[@fischy0339]

ah you have two of them only need a colt 45 next to them now

[@sirchris6047]

a 9mm revolver? OH BOI

[@bajablast2271]

My great grandfather had one in 9mm, when he passed my grandfather put in his safe and I told him to keep up with it because it's valuable.

[@ltr4300]

Seems like that cylinder groove and pawl would get worn fairly quick?

[@ThomasKrul]

My great grandfather had one of these in the Austrian army, apparently it's still somewhere in the family!

[@BigSwede7403]

There is a cut-out in the top of the frame, down so you can see the cylinder through it. Any guess what that is for?

[@rubberchicken6954]

looks a lot more like a competition revolver than a military model, i can see why they never saw service but the fit and finish are actually very nice

[@mrd1433]

Is this where the designer of the Pancor Jackhammer got the idea for the drum rotation mechanism?

[@Chadiseinsteinjr]

It would be neat if they left the pin stationary and had the whole cylinder and barrel move under recoil so it could be like a semi auto

[@thelonerider5644]

This thing looks like a prop from "Firefly"...

[@minutemanqvs]

What is your watch in the video? Looks like a Junghans.

[@Fuddleton]

What were the handles molded out of? Mustn't have been many cheap materials in 1878 to do stuff like that.

[@tillmannfischer]

Could have been PVC, although I'd rather assume them to be made of some sort of resin (especially if you compare them to the material old fountain pens are made of).

[@tillmannfischer]

***** PVC was invented in 1872. If anything, the date 1926 would be relevant as well, as that was the year Semon developed a way to make the material less brittle and usable in many more applications. That said, molded PVC (as a rather brittle and hard material) was first used in 1875.

[@RobertoDonatti]

there's a small lever on the left side of the gun right next to the cylinder. What's that for?

[@RobertoDonatti]

I did, he never mentions that part.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

As far as I can tell, that's just a flat spring to prevent the hammer pin from coming out.

[@TheWayOfTheWind]

Do you think you'Lloyd be reviewing the Suomi KP/31?

[@TheWayOfTheWind]

Sorry, my auto correct is on.

[@samiam619]

Andrew Sizonenko So fix it! Or didn’t you know there is an edit feature?

[@SoWe1]

This looks like it could be made into a semi-automatic, or even automatic.

[@Likexner]

I only have one question. Why?

[@Roark1234567890]

have you ever got your hands on a webly fosbery automatic revolver?

[@Splimis]

That cylinder reminds me of the Pancor Jackhammer's.

[@davidjohnson4956]

Totally missed the opportunity to drop the colt 45 reference.