What Are Dungeons For?

Does D&D facilitate the game you want to play?
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[@CaelReader]

Some OSR (Old School Renaissance) systems to look into for dungeon crawling: Knave, Cairn, Five Torches Deep, Old School Essentials, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Electric Bastionland, Maze Rats, Worlds Without Number

[@michelletheia9853]

HackMaster

[@battspaints]

Knave rocks

[@Xplora213]

Questing Beast has entered the chat

[@spaz4269]

MÖRK BORG is a great new OSR system as well.

[@Mistfader]

Not OSR exactly, but Torchbearer is entirely built around dungeon crawls.

[@davidmartin5145]

I think the hallmark of a Running The Game video is the moment where I realize I haven’t been listening to Matt for the last 45 seconds because my mind wandered off to my own game and what I can do with it based on the ideas that have been put in my head.

[@austincarter5082]

This is so true.

[@GKCanman]

I can't get out of my head the many problems that the cleric class has. I dont even know what line of thoughts got me there. Something about these videos does that to me.

[@HecHocceH]

Every. Damn. Time! I have to re-watch every one of Matt's videos at least three times to get it. Ten minutes in - and I'm already gone, planning my next session with the ideas Matt gave me.

[@EyeOfEld]

@@GKCanman What problems?

[@GKCanman]

​@@EyeOfEld Without turning this into a college dissertation... The party feels compelled to bring a healing cleric along and strongly tell them how to act. It might be your character but your actions are seen as the team's resource. You might be tempted to say "well tell your party not to do that," and that can work. However, this behavior comes from the design and it should be addressed.

[@joshuapossin6910]

Aragorn and Boromir do in fact argue about taking a rest- “Give them a moment, for pity’s sake!” “By nightfall these hills will be swarming with orcs”

[@mcolville]

Oh sure. And do they then go on to do it another 20 or 30 times? In other words, they argue about resting when it is dramatic. Is that why you need to rest in 5e?

[@kylekillgannon]

@@mcolville because my DM (finally) had more than one combat encounter.

[@sharpe3698]

That's the first thing that jumped to my mind too when he mentioned that 😂

[@InDisskyS131]

@@mcolville Hah, my DM is fairly decent. Short rests happen from time to time in a session but usually we are fighting effects of exhaustion when we are adventuring.

[@jackplant6909]

Then you've got the whole 'second breakfast' conversation....

[@Theycallmetomu]

Based on this video, easy way to show 5E isn't a survival horror game: Light is a cantrip.

[@mcolville]

Yep!!

[@speedchuckgaming]

Light. Goodberry. Bag of Holding. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

[@TwilitbeingReboot]

Don't forget Mage Hand - a ten-foot pole that won't get stuck in doorways!

[@Theycallmetomu]

@@TwilitbeingReboot I love Mage Hand, but it has some inherent limitations due to being a spell with specific definitions of what it can and can't do. A Ten foot pole is a ten foot pole!

[@webslinger325]

Anti magic field

[@lindybeige]

The mirrors were not (primarily, I believe) for peering around corners in dungeons. That wouldn't work, because you'd need what was around the corner to be illuminated, and your own light source, if you had one, would then be flashed towards your foes. Of course, it could work sometimes, but I don't recall anyone's using them that way. They were for detecting vampires, which don't reflect. On the same list were wooden stakes (? not always), holy symbols, and wolves' bane. Iron spikes were commonly carried, and their main use was to hold doors open or shut.

[@mcolville]

Holy shit it's Lindybeige!

[@mcolville]

I suspect, and obviously there's no way to know, that if we could wave a magic wand and see how often mirrors were actually used in the first 10 years of D&D, the number one reason would probably be to avoid gaze attacks by creatures like basilisks. However I think there were also a lot of dungeons were the denizens had light. You know I could probably just go do a survey of four or five classic '70s dungeons and just see how many of them had lit corridors. But your point is well taken. Also you're awesome, keep up the awesome work.

[@fredslipknot9]

I smell the crossover episode of my dreams

[@markoseldo2007]

We used to do it all the time to see what was there. If there was any kind of light source around the corner, we'd use the mirror. Goblin cookfire? Glowing magic items? On one memorable occasion, the faint glow around the corner was the flickering flames licking out from a red dragon's nostrils while it slept. Suffice to say we went the other way, and quickly!

[@JohnnyTightIips]

I wonder if darkvision works looking through a mirror 🤔

[@phil_metal_jacket]

I will say this for starting equipment: one of my players is brand new to the game and started as a level one rogue, and now they are near-obsessed with their bag of ball bearings.

[@terraglade]

ball bearings, rope, grapple hook, and torches are my most often used items. and rations/water ig. Rest of it rarely if ever comes up.

[@Seraphim_MTG]

Running the Delian Tomb for my wife, she looks at her character sheet and proceeds to use rope to tie down an Orc.

[@NickGreyden]

@@Seraphim_MTG Can't go wrong with 50ft rope, piece of canvas, a backpack, ink, quill, parchment, caltrops, and a handful of rocks. in fact, a monk I had once used the canvas to throw over a sleeping bugbear and pummel him to death. Late in his career he started the Order of the Bloody Canvas. Good times. You should come to our meetings. We have cookies.

[@blakereid5785]

Haha, that’s so common. I’m pretty sure I did the same thing.

[@kereminde]

@@Seraphim_MTG My group used it to get over a pit, as in they had the high Athletics person jump across, spike the rope to the wall... and on the other side did the same, then they used the ropes to shimmy across. Same players tried to throw down some lantern oil and set it on fire to cut off enemies approaching from behind them.

[@johnreiland9180]

To me, this is *peak* Matt Colville. I can open my brain wide and just pour this right in, let it slosh around. It was a joy to start with a close shot on the equipment list, pull back until we're examining narrative genres, and then zoom back in again until we're talking about loot and monsters. Killer video.

[@Xenibalt]

agreed, this is a masterpiece of a TTrpg video

[@jeremytitus9519]

I get kind of high listening to Matt when he’s firing on all cylinders.

[@fitzgigler]

You can see the appetite for Dungeon Crawlers in the board game space. Gloomhaven, Chronicles of Drunagor, etc. Are designed to give you varying levels of intense strategic dungeon crawling, without the need for a DM.

[@CarletonSaw]

Mechanically Gloomhavens bleed out cards design creates more tense decisions then 5e is even capable of. It's no surprise it's basically won every award in the world. It's another reason why I can't get into dungeon heavy games. Other game systems do a blast through a dungeon better, but 5e does things gloomhaven doesn't want to do and the package of what it can does as a whole is where it is.

[@Drekromancer]

@@CarletonSaw That's my position too, tbh. If I want a brilliantly systemic dungeoncrawler, I'll just play a well-crafted video game. If I'm going to play a TTRPG, then I want it to capitalize on the total narrative/creative freedom intrinsic to the medium. Otherwise, why would I play a TTRPG over a video game?

[@lucbouchard-pigeon1363]

@@Drekromancer : TTRPGs allow you options that do not exist in video games. Dungeon crawling in an old school rpg is not a hack and slash. It's game of survival and looting where you are not bound by what programmers put in.

[@balthizarlucienclan]

As an old-school player, I often make action decisions with my character that baffle my much younger dungeon masters. A perfect example was an encounter with abyssal chickens which I mistook for cockatrice (based on the description provided.) I fought the entire battle at a disadvantage because I refused to look directly at them. After the fight, the DM asked why I acted that way, and I had to explain the tactic and why I was using a small hand mirror instead of just facing the enemy. I sometimes feel foolish when I play because I still think about dungeons like I used to. This is why 5e feels so low-stakes to me.

[@user-we5kg6ng4c]

Why would your character assume chickens are cockatrices and that their gaze would turn him to stone if your character never encountered cockatrices before? And if he did encounter cockatrices before, why didn't he recognize those were just chickens?

[@balthizarlucienclan]

@@user-we5kg6ng4c they were abyssal chickens, not just chickens and my character was well read, having grown up in a monastery and although he had not encountered them himself he had read about them. also, based on the description that the DM had given, they appeared to be cockatrices to me, they were not described the best to be honest.

[@balthizarlucienclan]

@@user-we5kg6ng4c that sounds like an amazing idea! I might steal that concept as well 🥰

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

@@user-we5kg6ng4c Because, sometimes, "old-school players" just can't stop themselves from metagaming.

[@surprisedchar2458]

5e is low stakes because it’s been built into a low stakes experience. And man it just is not fun.

[@algorithmancyTube]

5e: We’re a heroic fantasy game, not a dungeon crawler! Also 5e: We’re balanced around an adventuring day of 6-8 encounters...

[@Alex-sf5uz]

Lol nail on the head 🤣

[@theKurtAnderson]

“And our internal data shows that, despite that design, most tables cap out at 3 encounters per day”

[@Yora21]

"Exploration is one of the three pillars of D&D. We also don't know what it is."

[@johndevlin9225]

This is even funnier, because throughout the entire playtest, the game was balanced around 2-6 encounters, with 4 as the average. And then at the last minute, in the final release with no further playtesting, they changed all the names, so a previously easy encounter was now medium, a medium encounter was now hard, etc. So now we have the 6-8 recommended encounter day, when neither the game nor the way people play really supports it.

[@bryannorris8049]

My biggest gripe all along with 5e was they simplified it for good reason. However, while they claim anything is supposed to fit in their box, the box is actually pretty small. I've played a lot of systems and I really like the d20 lineage of D&D for accomplishing storytelling. I think 5e is best for new players for that style system, but I don't think it is best for everyone.

[@BigRoyBad]

This video makes a really good case for leaving D&D behind and trying all kinds of different systems for different games

[@jimyoung9262]

Hasbro gives another good reason.

[@chazzitz-wh4ly]

I just learned about ARKs and I am interested in it. The cleave mechanic is so enticing and makes fighters and melee so much more interesting.

[@mr.pavone9719]

My kids have gotten interested in D&D. They play 5e and I'm an OG D&D player. My first exposure to the game was the original white box set that my dad brought home. So, me and the boys have talks about the differences in editions. One of the things I keep telling them is that to understand each edition and what it's trying to do, you need to understand the media the designers consumed. OGD&D was about wargaming because Gygax and his crew were all hardcore, historical wargamers and they cared very much about supplies and logistics. They knew what it took to keep an army running so they worked it into their game. Hell, they made getting the loot out of the dungeon part of the game. If every coin weighs an ounce, then 16 make a pound so 500 gold coins weighs 31lbs 4oz. That's TWO BOWLING BALLS worth of gold! 5e seems to be designed for people who watched a lot of anime and played a lot of video games, not that that is a bad thing. But 5e certainly comes off as a game that facilitates players in their acting out those kinds of fantasies with the mechanics of video games and cartoons that don't sweat little material details.

[@kevinb4079]

Nailed it! This is exactly why I stopped playing. I played OG D&D as a young teenager and the fun was taking a lowly lvl 1 character and with skill and luck surviving a few levels. If you died you learned you laughed and then you rolled a new character or sometimes "resurrected" an old one. The higher your character advanced the less fun the game became. Skip ahead many years and I joined a friends group and I just couldn't get into it. It was as if everyone just wanted to act out some superhero fantasy in some other world I could not relate to at all. OG D&D was more about tactics and equipment and much less about the characters and their abilities. It was also very much grounded on real world myth and lore which brought at least some reality to the game.

[@SnekkySnek]

@@kevinb4079 I feel like thats also the difference in demographics now too, im from the generation where 5e is the first ttrpg you get introduced to and Ive noticed a lot of us like to feel like we are this special hero/adventurer/outlaw etc who gets to make a difference. The concept of rolling a character, dying and repeating is much harder for us as we grow attached to a character very fast, hell my most recent character who I havent even gotten to play yet feels like a child to me. Its just dnd is evolving with the newer demographic in mind rather than the older players

[@kevinb4079]

@@SnekkySnek I agree that they have catered to new demographics. Even in my time some DMs played fast & loose with rules to keep players from getting frustrated. It was sort of like playing Monopoly with house rules rather then by the actual rules. I believe they eventually adjusted to this type of play style. I also believe some it has to with distinguishing themselves from PC games.

[@solsystem1342]

Hot take but if 5e was was a video game it would suck. It's very much design soup. Half-legacy, half simplicity, half modern design. First off, 5e lacks interesting choices during combat. Most classes have one or two realistic options in a turn. Second it's incredibly complex and cumbersome. Like, the 5e rules have never had contact with gawkable design. Basically, I'm switching to a different system for my next campaign because I'm part of this "5e generation" you're talking about and it does none of the stuff you mentioned for me. More importantly it fails to do anything in particularly interesting way. Ok, rant over I just hate a lot of design decisions that went into 5e from like a systems design perspective.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

I think the thing with 5E is it is a loose enough framework that the experience you get is very much up to the DM and/or adventure designer - encumbrance for example is still a thing in 5E, so that same adventure in removing the gold can be had, in the adventure I'm currently running just the foraging to survive has become somewhat of a running theme as they are stuck in hostile territory and lost their supplies. Not that I disagree with Colville that other rulesets have different flavours, that can be great and really suited the experience. I just think the way 5E is built as a core ruleset allows for more GM world building and tone setting than many as the rules are quite flexible and can be built off as any type - or to use Colville's speaking other languages analogy 5E is more of the body language, tone of voice and gestures that is quite universal across all human societies and some animals, which you can expand upon with the Spanish/English/French/Medieval Latin as you choose to suit the setting.

[@OoziHobo]

I tried running Dungeon of the Mad Mage because the idea of a classic dungeon crawler greatly appeals to me. I impressed upon them how important torches, water, and rations were going to be. I explained how heavy water is, so they shouldn't make STR their dump stat (which is always okay to do in 99% of 5E games). I even designed a character sheet to make tracking these things less tedious. I wanted no tedium. All tension. I even invented a narrative reason for the players to want to push deeper rather than return to Waterdeep. The drunkards at the Yawning Portal was betting on them to be cowards that would be back sooner than later. Also, their patron was one of their own PCs in my other campaign, who hired them to retrieve a thrice-locked chest that oddly seemed to drain all vibrancy from the colors around it. At the end of every session, I posted a score card in discord showing how much experience they earned, how many rooms they explored, and most importantly, how much time had elapsed since they entered the dungeon. (By the way, don't track time for DotMM. If you track time, your players will feel like they're speed running the game. We did how much in 12 hours?!) All of this to say I tried to set myself up for success as much as possible. I tried really hard to ease my players into a new style of play. And I was fighting the system of 5E every step of the way. I may have eventually got there. I mean I had teleported them a few levels deeper (CR means nothing). A hag had just killed their water-carrying mule. Things may have actually become tense! But unfortunately, this campaign ended when the pandemic began. And we tried playing online a couple times until I pulled the plug on it. Part of why I love TTRPGs is because I love getting together with my friends. Playing online felt like playing a very bad video game. Months later when these players felt like they could be more honest with me, they revealed they didn't really like it. Heartbreaking.

[@tagg1080]

Ben Milton on the questing beast channel has a great video on "the lost dungeon crawling rules" , or something like that. He starts with a great little monologue about how 5th edition "dungeons' and dragons barely has any rules for dungeons.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

I love his channel

[@Poolio_10]

Or dragons for that matter. So much lost lore-

[@demonzabrak]

It barely has rules.

[@QuestingBeast]

Hey, thanks for the recommendation!

[@coopmeister3000]

@@QuestingBeast I don't even play in an OSR game but I love the aesthetic and old-school feel. You have a cool channel and you can tell you're really passionate about it just from the way you talk and present it :)

[@tiggerdyret]

I remember Matt saying he didn't think he would ever get into other systems because DnD still had so much untapped potential. I was pleasantly surprise about that he seems to be diving into more systems and schools of thought once again now that he is designing games. My biggest gripe with people not being willing to try other systems is because I was one of those people. I knew systems were different from DnD, but I always kinda assumed that the were that same thing handle slightly different. Now that I've tried a couple of systems and seen how differently they play and how much the gameplay changes the stories and tone of the game, I've become a madman for new systems a regular RPG addict. I wish people would try different systems, because finding a system that suits your intention for the game is such a freeing experience compared to hammering DnD mechanics into place to get the result you want. If you are having fun. Great, keep at it, but I will tell you, you don't know what you're missing.

[@eriktyrrell424]

The Ars Magica game I'm playing now really is very informed by the rules. There is a lot of "this is really important, I can study a different magical art over the winter than the one I had planned to, invent a relevant spell in the spring, and we'll get back to this in only six months".

[@colbyboucher6391]

Ars Magica is cool as hell.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Great vid, sir. I've tried many times to explain how 5e D&D isn't the designed for, or the best for Horror compared to other games. Inevitably someone responds, "Not the best for Horror, huh? Ever heard of Curse of Strahd?" before dropping the mic and strutting off.

[@michaeleldredge4279]

I am running Curse of Strahd for my group. I throw in horror elements where I can, but I think we all realize that the system is not designed for horror. Every time I throw something at my players that might cause them the kind of problems and unease that horror relies upon, they just have too many tools at their disposal to overcome their problems. This is not a complaint by any stretch of the imagination. I love seeing my group find creative ways to overcome problems. But it is a different kind of game than horror.

[@AlVainactual]

Glad to see another one of my favorite content creators struggle in the same boat as I. It's ok Seth, we have Call of Cthulhu. Check out Mothership for a different kind of D100 horror game. I think you'd really dig it.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I've got Mothership. Looks interesting, and might get to trying it eventually. Right now we're scratching our horror itch with Kult: Divinity Lost, which I'm absolutely loving.

[@AlVainactual]

@@SSkorkowsky Sounds like content worth watching 😉

[@HarryH256]

@Seth Skorkowsky, I'm a fan of your channel! Your Conan videos inspired me to check out the game and my group really enjoyed the game, sparking a campaign.

[@CBFresh]

The idea that design affects your style of play is still something that I don't think most people think about, thanks for the video Matt.

[@LailaJohanna]

I love how Matt's meandering almost archaeological discussions of D&D and ttrpgs provide you with such a solid foundation to think about your game. I've been working on a campaign and from the beginning I knew I really want a robust system for herbology, harvesting wild and strange plants, ores, earths etc. and definitely for butchering monsters and using their parts, interesting weather effects and more and - to me - it just felt like D&D is just fundamentally missing these aspects. I now think, the reason I want this, is because I am creating a game that is about exploring nature and being immersed in a natural environment and D&D isn't necessarily about that; it doesn't give you nearly enough ways to interact with nature in the way I imagine. Thanks! Now I can approach this issue in a far more targeted way!

[@davidanddragons5339]

Went to a con recently and was in a 5e game with a a kobold cave full of traps. The players that survived were the ones who thought creatively about whatever equipment they had on their character sheet.

[@mewwww17]

The 2/3 mark of this video created a link in my brain to Jacob Geller's "Does Call of Duty Believe in Anything?" video. I've often monkeyed with D&D mechanics to try to make it about different things and conveyed this to the players. However, I'm realizing along with this video that it may be best to develop or work off of entirely different systems. The expectations everyone has of D&D and the built-in mechanics I've forgotten to consider have frequently subverted these attempts.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

yep, everyone trying to hack D&D for every purpose is like if everyone tried to make every type of genre or game as mods of one game. there are so many avenues not explored, assumptions unchallenged when that's the case

[@zacharyharwell351]

This is more or less my experience as well, exacerbated by the fact that where 5e rests as a base isn't inherently interesting to me anymore. If we're gonna go high-magic, I want flying carpet taxis and Dragon Knights and magic powered lightsabers and stuff. If we're gonna go for more gritty realism than I have to restrict access to classes or to magic levels and reduce monsters stats and stuff to make up for the lack of magic items. 5e is kind of sitting in an in-between realm for me and I find it far more trouble than it's worth to try and MAKE it the game I want it to be. No shade cast to the people who like it but I've just gotten to a place I know it's no longer the game for me.

[@octavioselgas4653]

Hey did you makea similar comment in the r/dndtext subrredit? I think I saw it.

[@mewwww17]

@@octavioselgas4653 Sorry I don't know how I just got a notification about your comment, but no, sorry I'm not on Reddit

[@snooz3d998]

In the DMG, in the section about fantasy genres, they describe heroic fantasy mainly through the lens of "heroes" (not necessarily heroic, but crucial to the plot) using their powers to destroy monsters and villains, and I think that is what this game is about. Making player characters the heroes of their own story. You can pretty easily put different genre wallpapers over it, but their characters are always immportant to the plot and uniquely capable.

[@Lumpyrox1412]

I second this! ❤

[@praytellcaesar]

Matt does mention if this were the case why have the first 5 levels? I think many games start at 3rd or 5th level for this reason. Let's start as already capable heroes who can do incredible things! Rather than farmers who picked up a sword the day before and could die to a single goblin

[@snooz3d998]

@@praytellcaesar but they're not farmers who picked up a sword. They have training, they have one or two abilities. Sure they don't have many hit points, but they're not defenceless. The way I see it, early levels are kinda like the first few chapters of a shonen manga: they have a lot of potential, but they're still green and monsters pose a real threat

[@gknucklez]

@@praytellcaesar You are not a farmer tho. You start as a highly skilled thief, leader of the guard, the towns sage everybody looks up to, the pirate captain that induces fear with their name etc. Your background determines your starting situation and often you are already pretty competent at what you are doing and are the hero of your little social bubble. You just haven't started the journey yet and have little knowledge about adventuring to become the hero of the village, then of the county, kingdom, continent, world, galaxy etc. You are always the hero, the level just determines the threat level you are playing against.

[@jacobs483]

@@snooz3d998 maybe think of this another way: When you are reading manga, how often are you actually worried that the main characters are unable to win this battle? Heroic fantasy has this happen incredibly rarely. Horror assumes this as a default.

[@HAVOK586]

Fascinating to consider the amount of people that bounced off of D&D for whatever reason that (especially with the mainstream popularity of 5E) may have actually loved it if it had been strictly ran like a dungeon crawler, or political drama, or narrative-focused adventure, or swashbuckling voyage, high fantasy, low fantasy, etc.

[@thorinbane]

Its a problem for the whole Ttrpg hobby. There are great games designed to do just that, but people will have a hard time finding it because their first experience was with dnd which is trying to be the everyman while not doing it well. This also gets to part of my 4e gripe. Why play it if i have the same options available with ganes workshop or an actual video game. The mechanics just weren't there to support good roleplay with sjill base

[@zephyrstrife4668]

This has been... incredibly eye-opening. I've been so bored with 5e lately and had no idea why... until I started playing L5R with my friend and lost myself in the narrative of my Doji clan diplomat. Originally, I wanted to play an Iaijutsu master. After taking a look at the other stuff with the Crane clan though, I thought to myself... why not be something that I've not really done before? I've played warriors, mages, priests, thieves and archers... I've never played a diplomat, I've never really been a noble. D&D always starts the characters off as "dirt-poor" mercenaries drifting about and killing monsters until they have enough lost money to think they can be nobility. L5R on the other hand, starts you as a noble with obligations and duties that you really shouldn't ignore. There's little point keeping track of wealth unless your character is a Ronin because any purchase you make is basically invoiced to your Lord. You also can't spend frivolously or your DM could spice up the story by having your Lord dispatch a messenger to tell you your access to their wealth is denied. My Doji character is the kind of person who makes calculated decisions on what to buy, where to send gifts and who to schmooze because he has to justify everything he does or risk his reputation, his home and even his life. The character sheet has the layout that becomes reminiscent of a Japanese scroll and the most important elements to your character are the 20 questions used to define their life up until the game began. Having those connections, potential rivalries or even nightmare-inducing secrets has made the game an absolute thrill to play. Most of the time I don't even end up rolling dice, as long as I explain my intention and it seems reasonable enough that my character could do it... I succeed, my friend has only had me roll when there would be something dramatic to happen if I should fail to achieve my goal.

[@Goozeeeee]

This is sick. Definitely gives me ideas.

[@zephyrstrife4668]

@@Goozeeeee glad to do so, it's why I've been going back and taking a look at the older versions of D&D to find out what is missing from the soul of D&D today. Nowadays, we have plenty of Dragons... but no Dungeons. We have adventures and quests, but not dungeon crawls. Characters now are superheroes compared to 2e... I should know, I basically made a 6-character funnel and between all six of them, I have 7hp to work with. The most promising character of the bunch is a fighter with 1hp and a decent chunk of strength. I just have to hope he lives long enough to reach level 1

[@maul42]

Still in love with D&D, but L5R is my all-time favorite setting. Glad you've discovered it as well!

[@KBash]

The midnight upload. Never change, king

[@ardentdrops]

💫 Ludonarrative Consonance is the phenomenon you're talking about. The mechanics of the game directly support the storytelling. Games like Mothership 1E or Dread RPG specifically craft their character design around their horror elements, and the mechanics create fear in their players, for example. The rules are a storytelling device, and you should endeavor to use a tool that is fit for purpose. D&D 5th edition is like a Leatherman tool: broad in purpose but never as good as a dedicated hammer, pliers, screwdriver etc...

[@mach2922]

I love this comparison. I've always seen dungeons as a tool to drive narrative. Not just in theme and purpose in the way Matt talks about them, but also as mechanical story telling device. Dungeons set boundaries, they provide multiple paths and options to take, they often times have a central end goal that characters work towards. In more ways than one, a dungeon can act like a metaphor while story telling.

[@elsesome2707]

@@mach2922 That said Dungeons in the name of original Dungeons and Dragons were pretty explicitly just Dungeons. Dangerous locations brimming with treasure, monsters, and traps where every minute spent slowly saps your resources and makes every move precious and any plan that much more precarious. It's really really fun.

[@garysturgess6757]

I'd say to the extent that 5e is "about" anything, it is about kicking in doors, killing things, and taking their stuff. And mostly about the middle one of those. As Matt notes this is _not_ dungeon crawling; the main difference is that 5e heroes kick in the doors expecting to be able to succeed in killing the things in the room, and indeed to do so half a dozen or more times per long rest, whereas dungeon crawling PCs would try to minimise the amount of combat they got involved in and would only kick in the door to attempt to get surprise on monsters they had (via some other means) already determined were in there. I've noticed in my group that a session that goes by with little combat is often a frustrating one - not because it's not enjoyable per se, but more because we only play once a week and it feels like a wasted session if it doesn't lead to the XP that comes (in 5e) only from murder. :)

[@shasta_creates]

@@garysturgess6757 Agreed. If 5e is recreating any fantasy, it's akin to Saturday morning cartoon action shows or movies in the MCU. The heroes of 5e are just that; super-charged like a super hero and emboldened by magical or martial abilities. Add to this the idea that most DMs for 5e carefully avoid creating encounters that are deadly, and you create a serialized drama for your players to come back to time and time again to punch in baddies' faces and walk away feeling good about winning. The "fun" for most 5e players is doing just this; it's probably also why a game without a combat encounter feels wasted. Imagine paying to see a new Batman movie and it's just him swinging around town and talking to people to resolve their conflicts. It may be an interesting movie, but it's not really what you'd expect given the name on the tin. I like Matt's comparison to oatmeal, but I think maybe it's too pejorative for the experience 5e provides. I'd say maybe closer to a loaf of plain white bread. 5e was basically made to be added upon; MCDM itself profits from this design. As he said, you CAN tailor it to what you want it to be, even if DND in its current form has strayed from what it once was.

[@armandof6453]

Nailed it

[@allluckyseven]

Memories of counting how many torches we could bring down a dungeon came rushing to my mind. EDIT: Also why lanterns were so much better (and there were two kinds of them!) but of course we had to bring oil...

[@the_BunnyBox]

I have always felt that way about 5e, where it underdelivers in what im looking for from D&D. To be clear, I am 22 years old, and 5e was my first TTRPG. But I always wanted a low fantasy, mythical creature, dungeon crawl, death is plenty, gold is fuel type game.

[@seraaron]

For those looking for a youtube channel that dives into and reviews lots of Old School rpgs, I'd reccomend Quest Beast. There's a lot of really cool things out there, and it doesn't take much work at all to start peeling back the layers.

[@seraaron]

*Questing Beast

[@donovanpeterson837]

Also, Bandit's Keep, Hexed Press, Wandering DMs, Dungeon Masterpiece, Dungeon Craft, and Dieku Games and sometimes Runehammer!

[@egregoros1898]

Going to toss Mr. Welch's Mad Musings in there as a great review and introduction to other rpg systems channel. Also Seth Skorkowsky.

[@Zeedox]

I *need* a Colville Collab with some other RPG luminary.

[@dimitrispapakyriakou]

Questing beast, what? What? I say! Sir Grummursum, she got a youtube channel now!

[@mcolville]

I thought about calling this video Styles of Play? But it really only covers one style of play. I thought about calling it Dungeon Crawling, or What Is D&D About? But really I wrote this whole thing as a reaction to seeing people online refer to 5E as "a dungeon crawler." CAN you do that in this game? Sure. But is that actually what it is?

[@moiiytov]

Not all the way through yet, but this feels like a reasonable extrapolation from that older video about dungeons. Built on the same girders. I like.

[@pez5767]

It's funny you mention this, I felt like the title didn't really "sell" the point. Perhaps "What's your RPG good at?" or something along those lines.

[@ChanceDrive]

I think 5e focus is more on the characters and the heroes journey. I guess just like how a wargame became dnd thru the focus on being one specific troop member we are fleshing this troop member out more and more as time goes on.

[@MrMontugar]

Dnd 5e: infinite problems but all you get are hammers.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

@@ChanceDrive even then, 5e's approach is only one way to do it. many skirmish-level wargames (especially solo ones) also have individual troop progression with RP mechanics but they don't tune into e.g. the same deluge of power-ups every level, or lean into play-based advancements (e.g. gaining a bonus on certain tasks becasue of what transpired in a previous battle) that are systematised

[@michaelcohen8259]

I used to play Paranoia. The version you described sounds very different from the one I remember. We didn't tamper with each other's characters; instead, we had to make six "clones" of our one character because we knew the character would die, and die quickly. "But Friend Computer, I can say without fear of contradiction..." was a common phrase. Often one character would kill another.

[@michaelmeffie4468]

Yes, that's the version we played back in the day too. I think it is called legacy Paranoia, or maybe classic Paranoia.

[@michaelcohen8259]

@@michaelmeffie4468 The old version was a lot of fun. The new version might be, too, but I don't have that game.

[@davidwright7193]

The original system didn’t get players to try to screw everyone over before play starts. However shopping you team mates to Friend Computer for being commie mutant traitor scum that should be terminated immediately. This is of course true because you were all commie mutant traitor scum. However most of the time the “treason” was either imaginary, incompetence, or insufficient knowledge/equipment/power/resource to complete the task. I think I once had a player get to orange clearance. That felt like a failure. However it was a product of the Cold War and I don’t think someone born in the 90’s would get the joke.

[@wadespencer3623]

I think that letting people screw up each other's character creation is absolutely in the spirit of classic Paranoia though.

[@hildissent1309]

"Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures" is a great example of a game that started with D&D and tooled it around a play style (pastoral fantasy).

[@tjduck85]

I like another descriptor for the game: "hearth fantasy."

[@dylanehooverlibrarian7026]

An attempt to tell fantasy stories based around rural life. Tales are bucholic, featuring common people who deal with unusual problems based on local knowledge, community ties and independence. Beyond the Wall is nice because the singular rules are just D&D stats but simplified, but the focus on using Playbooks to help shape character creation (e.g. Apprentice Woodcutter, Noble's Spirited Daughter, Witch's Apprentice) encourage both player interdependence AND the creation of a village (which all players are now invested in). Thus, everything has an intimate and personal vibe. I dearly love BtW because of its smaller scale, and how it basically contains excellent guides to I reduce a new group in how to play it. Highly recommended

[@Lurklen]

My take, 5E is designed to be about D&D. The whole thing is essentially an homage to every other edition. Those first 5 levels are to simulate that dungeon crawling experience. You start off weak enough that it's a *similar* experience to the dungeon crawlers of yore (which is why so many characters actually die in those early levels, and so many people not getting the point recommend starting at 3rd or 5th). The gap between level 5 and 6 is longer than any other because after that you will have abilities that render most conceits of dungeon crawling relatively easy to get around. It's peak early game, level 20 of that style of play. After that you move on to the epic adventures kind of play, you are going on big dramatic quests, using those skills more often and having them take care of stuff. Your build is relevant, and you are looking at gear as a way to enhance your character in a specific way rather than just having a cool thing. (Feels similar to my experience with Pathfinder, "I've got the answer to this somewhere on my sheet, I think I bought a thing that can solve this." I don't need a creative idea, I built a character that does *stuff* ). After that you can get through multiple encounters without resting if you want, and every time you level up you essentially solve another adventuring problem. You are far less likely to die, and far more likely to win in a big splashy battle where you do something cool, you also tend to have a lot of cool stuff you can do. There's few scenarios you're expected to fail, it's really just about how you go about winning. It *feels* more like the fantasy behind 4E (but without the emphasis on tactics, so it doesn't really feel like playing 4e, but more like an homage to the concept of being a big hero doing big hero stuff). End game isn't really relevant, because they don't really make material for anything over level 15. So 5e doesn't really have anything to say about being high level. You can solve all the problems, now you're kind of just doing victory laps, finding a challenge is the challenge. 5E's theme is D&D as a genre, it's about playing D&D (which means it *can* be about whatever you want, but it's always going to feel like D&D). I don't know if it actually replicates any of those earlier editions well, but it does kind of provide a walking tour of the ideas behind them. I will say, the list of items made *me* go, "Man, what would I use a ten foot pole for? Why would a mirror be good to have? Oh, I could..." I don't know that my players pour over it, they tend to ask me what's available rather than just ask for stuff, but when they do need something, it's usually on that list. And I run a pretty grungy game for a big party. I have had to do a fair amount of work to make it feel that way though. Making it scary hasn't been that hard, but it does mean I play a little rougher than a lot of tables when it comes to what the enemies will do, though if they make it to that 5thor 6th level, they become pretty heroic and the scale of things gets far less grounded.

[@user-jq1mg2mz7o]

the ouroboros of empty inspiration eating itself...

[@Lurklen]

@@user-jq1mg2mz7o A little bit yeah, though at the same time there's a reason it's been so successful. You can kind of play any kind of D&D you want with it, and if you do it long enough you'll sort of get the sensation of playing all of them. It won't be as focused as if you picked any of those other editions, or another game, but it does its job of being a jack of all trades and giving you the *feeling* of D&D. I think it does that job better if people know that's what it's doing, and use it accordingly though. And to Matt's point, the system is designed to be a little of everything but a lot of nothing, and that's totally fine. It just means you're going to have to fiddle with it a lot if you want it to be about anything other than being a distillation of decades of D&D. (Which is what I've spent a lot of time doing lol). There's just a lot of other games that are about *something* already without having to do that. ( Right now I'm really into this osr style indie game called Wolfpacks and Winter Snow, which is about being prehistoric adventurers and how freaking hard that is, but how neat the world is when you strip away all the major cultural associations and take it back to basics.)

[@thomasjones5260]

Absolutely. D&D fantasy has become a genre unto itself, and 5e is designed to precisely emulate that genre.

[@nashwinston1395]

Brief tangent: Sanity can increase in call of cthulhu it's often granted when completing a scenario and doing something that can re-affirm their place in the cosmos. It's still an inevitable march to insanity or death but it does allow for the characters to actually participate in the campaign for longer. (Or just use Pulp Cthulhu the supplement that turned it more indiana jones and I love it.) I only bring it up so people don't think that all characters just die and that's it.

[@davidmorgan6896]

Characters don't always die, there is a third option between death and madness and that is to carry on.

[@nashwinston1395]

@@davidmorgan6896 That's how a decent amount of my player's characters end up. So Amen to that.

[@nicklausrhodes]

@@davidmorgan6896 Yes, Matt's description of CoC games does not match up to any I have run or played in. Characters do not always die or go (permanently) insane, in fact the vast majority may be injured physically or mentally, but recover and go on. Matt's statements here are such a misrepresentation of the game, it is confusing to me why he constantly doubles down on them. This has to be at least the 3rd or 4th video where he goes on a detailed rant about the lethality of CoC. I guess he has actually never played the game and only talked to people that have never actually played a campaign.

[@davidmorgan6896]

@@nicklausrhodes indeed, one of the joys of CoC is watching the PC acquire ever worsening psychoses. It's a great spur to role-playing.

[@cobykromis3344]

Just want to let you know that I’ve gained the confidence to try out dm’ing because of you and this amazing series! I can’t thank you enough. I’m nearly ready to start looking for players and it’s all thanks to you! Keep up the amazing work!

[@mattrickard3716]

This video makes it sound like starting the players at the entrance to the dungeon with their selected kit would be a good way to fast track to the action. The few games I have played meandered a lot. There was a lot of over thinking about the politics of the starting town and friction between the characters (the rogue stole all my money before we even got to town. If my monk ever figures out it was him, he'll kick his teeth out through the back of his skull!) and it all just bogged down. Cut to the action, I say!

[@jhinpotion9230]

Update us! Have you gotten a game?

[@KyleMaxwell]

I love this full-throated endorsement of "folks, you can play other games".

[@FamousWolfe]

In old school D&D, that equipment list could literally save your character's life. 10' poles can be used to probe for traps, mirrors can be used to peer around corners without alerting monsters (or even check if that new NPC who's been chatting up the party is really a vampire in disguise!), a bag of caltrops can be used to deter monsters from chasing you, chalk is especially useful when you're navigating a labyrinth or maze, I could go on and on. But alas, in D&D 5E the vast majority of these items are now almost useless as most of these tasks can be accomplished with a simple Perception or Ability Check.

[@ghandimauler]

The 10' pole might be nice if I was poling a gondola in Venice, but in a dungeon? I have to manouver 10' long lumber in my garage and I have a pretty good idea of exactly how long one would keep such an object in a typical dungeon with 5' corridors, stairs, and 90 degree bends, etc. Outdoor adventuring, maybe, but I'd rather carry a 10' spear where I occasionally use it for other things. In Dungeons? Nothing longer than about 7', if it isn't collapsible in some way.

[@jackplant6909]

I'd say 5e is about tactical combat, that's what the vast majority of the rules relate to and that's how a significant amount of time is spent in most sessions. Every character class is designed to take part in combat and be similarly good at it.

[@beganfish]

It's about combat, but it's not about tactical combat.

[@IIIHUSKIII]

Except this isn't true either, because there are huge class imbalance, and the combat is still quite bare bones. If we were talking about 4e, I'd agree, but 5e is the current edition, and while it is about combat, it's not very good at it.

[@YanniCooper]

@@IIIHUSKIII honestly this is why I claim that 4e is objectively the most dnd version of dnd we've ever had. At it's core dnd is a tactical combat simulator, and some editions do it better than others, but none as well as forth.

[@michaelhyatt5262]

@@YanniCooper 4e gets such a tragically bad rap for understandable reasons

[@jackplant6909]

I'm sure you're right, I never played 4e but that fits with what I've heard others say. I played 2e for about 20 years then jumped to 5e, by comparison 5e is far, far more tactical combat focused!

[@The_CGA]

Thank you for calling this out. I’m so tired of being asked to run a genre, but then being asked to leave the appropriate system behind, because people are “afraid to learn a new system” because they’re “too busy”

[@colbyboucher6391]

They usually just learned 5e through osmosis for a while anyways. It's all because 5e broke out of grognardia and other games never did. They feel like they'd be stepping into the social stigma D&D used to be.

[@Drekromancer]

@@colbyboucher6391 It's a hot take, sir, but it checks out.

[@dm_zemo]

Matt, thank you for never being oatmeal. Also I agree that 5e doesn’t really take a stance. My counter metaphor: it’s more like Pizza. Everyone likes pizza. Sauce, Cheese, and Bread. Fantastic together. But which sauce? which cheese? which bread? 5e is Pizza because as soon as you taste it, ooo it’s good- but you know what it could use more of? Insert DM inspired herbs & spices. Of course mad person just wants a sweet crunchy bread and then they go and invent cinnamon breadsticks.

[@fatcatsgoneblack]

A guiding principle I've always stuck by as a dungeon master is: "All the world is a dungeon. The only things that change are the size of the rooms and the tools the players use to navigate it."

[@fraser149]

What does that actually mean though? Is the whole world dark and terrifying? Is death always around every corner? Are the players constantly on edge? Is resting always risky? Are they physically limited to only moving in a handful of directions? Are the players always worried about running out of food or torches? Do you mean that the world exists as a series of linked encounters and locations? That makes sense, but I think part of Matt's argument is that the dungeon used to represent something more than that.

[@FamousWolfe]

​@@fraser149 Obviously it's a reference to Shakespeare's famous words, "All the world's a stage". Did Shakespeare mean that the entire world is one literal stage to perform upon? Not a literal sense, no. If you look at one of my favorite video game series though, you can get a good idea of what the OP might be referring to. In Diablo 1, the game is set squarely in the ravaged town of Tristram. The few townsfolk who chose to remain instead of fleeing for their lives exist solely to help the player with info, gear, and verbal encouragement. The nearby Cathedral was home to the game's only (mega)dungeon, and it was here that the player would spend the vast majority of their time. This is basically a computerized version of the quintessential D&D campaign as it was played back in the old days: DMs would create a town and a nearby dungeon to be explored and looted, and the DM would further map out the surrounding locales as needed. When Diablo 2 came out, we were treated to more of the world of Sanctuary. The game itself was no longer confined to a single town, but instead allowed us to visit 5 different towns (Acts I thru V) set in various regions around Sanctuary. While the game featured a brand new skill system and more classes to choose from, the core game loop between the two games remains the same: explore the unknown, complete quests, and kill and loot monsters. In Diablo 1 you explored a single, vast network of dungeons, whereas Diablo 2 had us explore more the unknown wilderness areas outside of each town along with the occasional cave, pocket dimension, and yes actual dungeons from time to time. Does that make Diablo 2 any less of a dungeon crawler just because it features less actual dungeons? Hell to the no. The answer is because the areas outside of town are mostly hostile and exploring them with limited space for potions and equipment is analogous to exploring a dark crypt like in the original game. It's not the actual setting that matters, it's the fact that exploration itself is dangerous if not approached correctly. The entire WORLD of Sanctuary is the dungeon, so to speak. Anyways, I hope this makes some semblance of sense. It's 3am and I'm a remote worker on a graveyard shift so apologies if my musings and comment is lacking in coherency. Cheers mate!

[@fatcatsgoneblack]

@@fraser149 Answering your questions one by one: 1. Much of it yes but even the darkest dungeons aren't without reprieve. There are rooms with treasure or fountains that heal you when you drink the water too! 2. Death comes for us all eventually so yes. 3. If that is what their character is like. Some characters are more comfortable wrist deep in monster guts than in a noble's palace. 4. If you haven't taken the necessary precautions? Sure. I think most of us check to make sure our doors are locked at night before going to bed. 5. Theoretically no but practically yes. As a DM I prepare for the direction I think they're likely to go. You're free to blow a hole in the wall and try to tunnel a new direction but you might cause a cave in that buries your entire party. 6. What is a torch but another resource in the game? HP, Spell slots, and even time during the session. All your resources are ticking down little by little. I hope the players make the most of them. 7. Yes this was the founding idea that this principle sprung from. A room can be a house, a city, a region, a country or even an entire planet. It all depends on the scale of your game. An encounter is a DM introducing drama to the scenario and without drama there is no story as I'm sure you well know. I hope this helps you understand my reasoning behind this philosophy! Also as another commenter suggested yes it is based on the Shakespeare quote.

[@Rageaholic2097]

All the world is a dungeon, and the men and women merely adventurers.

[@masonian]

@@fraser149 you're taking "dungeon" too literally; they're referring to the concept of a dungeon which is basically halls and rooms.

[@Spark_Chaser]

On equipment lists: I've been reading the newer edition of 7th Sea, the 2016 "John Wick Presents" game, and as I was creating a character, I noticed there was no spot on the character sheet for equipment. Looking through the book, I did not find an equipment list. None I could find at all. It caused me to have a moment of "but how do I know what stuff I have?" The answer, of course, is simple: You have what your character would reasonably have. Are you a member of the Duelists Guild? Well, you'd have the proper weapons of your school available to you. Are you a Noble? You'd likely have access to whatever you'd need to perform your duties as such. Are you a sailor? An Archaeologist? A travelling performer? You'd have the needed tools of your trade.

[@TheKingCrow1]

Some players like the crutch of a suggested list. I know many players can be totally overwhelmed by being given endless choice, so much so that the seemingly obvious just isn't apparent to them.

[@taragnor]

A lot of times, you don't specifically pick it as a list, you just sort of invent stuff as you need it. It works to prevent the annoying "gotcha" style of gaming where you make this ranger woodsman character that wants to skin something only for the DM to realize you never purchased the tools for that.

[@natbarmore]

@@TheKingCrow1 not just a creativity crutch-for some games, equipment is a key part of the gameplay. At an extreme, I think of games like Torchbearer where inventory maintenance and optimizing your gear are key parts of the gameplay, every bit as important as choosing your spells in D&D5E or balancing your party in a lot of combat-focused games.

[@GiantMetalCrabSmee]

I see it examines the ancient riddle of classic fantasy, "What have I got in my pocket?"

[@ANDELE3025]

@@TheKingCrow1 Its the reverse of a crutch. Limited itemization breeds creativity and optimization, it lets you put in more effort into your character. Exactly why some of the best 3e 3rd party books were essentially items and their mechanical uses outside of the base effect and creative-but-not-above-its-core-class-level use of spells.

[@tehBIGivan]

My call of cthulu character was lucky, they repressed all memory of what broke their mind. They remember arriving at an abandoned house and the next thing they remember was riding away, in the back of a pickup truck, from the burning house with their leg bleeding from unrecognizable bite marks

[@danielcrafter9349]

But that's NOT really lucky... Because now they know "the truth" really IS out there... but they don't remember what it is, that becomes fear of what isn't known... which could be ANYTHING Future games might even be worse - imagine their reaction when their memories are finally unlocked - and the final denouement ties all the loose threads together.. and they finally realise... I'm shivering thinking about how that trauma might literally break them worse than ever before...

[@glenthygesen62]

This was definitely timely. I started a 5e game for my kids a few months ago. Given they just wanted to kill monsters I started a dungeon crawl. Figured I’d make up levels and keep them going down as long as they were interested. My one son went through the manual and found that list of items and, on his own, started picking out stuff he thought would be useful. And even asked about the 10’ pole. After a couple sessions working their way through one of them wanted to go back to town to restock. I even warned them that the monsters might come back or do something while they were gone. Nope, we need to be better prepared for this. Sent them off and back but laid some story hooks they might find and see what happens. Well they’re still doing the dungeon crawl, but now they’re doing it to help out the local temple. And maybe there’s more going on that they need to investigate. I told my one son the other day, you just changed a dungeon to a campaign. They like traveling through the dungeon, but like the idea that there’s more to do when they’reready.

[@colbyboucher6391]

Muahaha I'm pretty sure this is how the idea of larger campaigns started in the first place.

[@luketfer]

One fun fact is that Darkest Dungeon is literally based on an OSR ruleset. Particularly Torchbearer, to the point the devs even said that it was a massive inspiration for the first game.

[@natbarmore]

Torchbearer isn’t OSR. Its based on Burning Wheel and Mouseguard-which are arguably the opposite of OSR in terms of design philosophy.

[@MountainsOfSadness]

@@natbarmore @nat barmore Torchbearer was designed by a team, one of whom is the author of Burning Wheel. Torchbearer is not based on Burning Wheel, they're different games in different genres. They have different aims, different purposes as games. Torchbearer *is* a dungeon crawler, Burning Wheel is not. That they share some ideas and design DNA does not make Torchbearer not a dungeon crawler. A lasagna and a tuna mornay both contain bechamel sauce; but it's a logical fallacy to conclude that a lasagna must therefore also contain tuna.

[@MountainsOfSadness]

@Lorestraat I don't disagree that it's not OSR, but I was pointing out the logical fallacy in their argument: just because Burning Wheel isn't OSR doesn't mean that Torchbearer isn't. A fallacy can still describe a thing that's true: Torchbearer isn't OSR, though it does share things in common. It's clearly designed to evoke aspects of old school D&D, which at least puts it in OSR-adjacent territory. It has the same intent as OSR: to redesign D&D of old. I'd argue that it's philosophically OSR, but not mechanically.

[@communitywoodworking9370]

@@MountainsOfSadness TB is "modern design sensibility, old-school adventure sensibility". I might still struggle to call it OSR-adjacent, but to the extent that fits I would say it's because it draws inspiration from a lot of the same source material.

[@gen1exe]

If you want a TTRPG that's a lot like Darkest Dungeon check out Marching Order

[@stevesketches]

For anyone interested in the themes discussed here, be sure to check out Questing Beast, Dungeoncraft, Runehammer, MeMyself&Die, and more.

[@fatanimetiddies9760]

Bandit's Keep is also great!

[@braddalrymple8615]

I built my entire campaign based on that better rewards video just so we all understand exactly how awesome you are for inspiring that lol

[@TheADHDM]

The Arcane Library's Shadowdark RPG is rocking my socks off right now. Exploration based survival with a dungeoncore theme that fits like a glove.

[@ChateauLonLon]

I'll have to check it out!

[@jefftheless]

Towards Better Rewards was actually the video that got me to look into other rpgs, I now own a bunch of OSR dungeon crawlers, Forged in the Dark heist games, and Powered by the Apocalypse genre narrative games.

[@bikzimusmaximus5250]

I would definitely recommend Dungeon Crawl Classics. It is a game that focus on old school dungeon crawling without trying to recreate the old school rules. Specifically, their goal were to take the old Appendix N, read it as inspiration and then make their own dungeon crawling game that includes rules for what there were rules for in the 70s, but with their own rules. A fair warning if you play around the table: You will need to buy new dice with even weirder shapes to play it.

[@eleintblood]

The rules also have a way of utilizing regular dice to get those wonky dice rolls. I love DCC and MCC, super fun and weird.

[@ghandimauler]

You make it seems like getting more unique dice is a chore or a negative thing..... ;-) (I love my D16s....)

[@bikzimusmaximus5250]

@@ghandimauler I think it's more that getting the book and then realizing that it uses dice you don't have can be upsetting.

[@lexvstee]

I am hearing, in between the lines, a distinct desire to create one's own table top game, and I for one would definitely support MCDM trying their own thing.

[@benl4198]

This video danced around the concept of just playing other games like Fred Astaire. Most impressive, in some ways

[@dominicnicosia5752]

For anyone looking for other game recommendations I recommend the KZbin channel Questing Beast, he reviews a bunch of rpgs, adventures, and supplements and I’ve found some really cool games through his channel. It’s mostly focused on old school style games but there’s a ton of variance and creativity about what that means. Great video Matt. I loved 5e for years, and there are parts of it I still like, but after a while I got sick of it. I’d say things like “everything has too many hit points, players solve everything with their character sheets, the way they format the books makes it hard to find what your looking for” and people would say “well your the DM you can change those things and for the books you can take notes before sessions or use different books.” But this video really gets to the heart of my issues with the game. 5e isn’t about anything because it’s made for shareholders first.

[@ReconKeeper212]

Matt said midnight, and here we are at 9:46pm. I'll take it.

[@mcolville]

Yeah I didn't want folks who just finished watching the stream to have to wait. :D

[@ReconKeeper212]

We appreciate it!

[@foolfan83]

"Do Boromir or Aragorn ever argue about taking a short rest versus a long rest?" Yes. Yes they do.

[@kendrajade6688]

By nightfall these hills will be SWARMING WITH ORCS!

[@xmateosx]

Matthew, you are killing it! I can tell this takes a lot of time and effort. I appreciate it. Love the battering/bantering of ideas

[@we7887]

I know you've mentioned that someone from MCDM is usually reading the comments soon after posting. So to that person, be it Matt, Jerry, or another. You're awesome. Keep it up!

[@shadran8497]

I think it would be worth to make a video on all of the little things that are in 5e just because they "used to be there" in older editions. Starkly clashing systems like half or three quarters cover, or wealth being absolutely wonky.

[@luxhemlock5194]

These are such good words to hear. I've been part of an online DnD5E game for literally years and we've constantly struggled with the fact that DnD5e's mechanics just don't serve any specific "genre". Our group tends towards horror. We're not "dungeon crawler's" though (most of us). This was always the most common system between us as a group, but all of us have had issues with the fact that we rely so much on homebrew content to evoke the genre we're hoping to convey. We never put into words like this though. We knew something was wrong. Something was off. We've tried plenty of other games like 7th Sea, Call of Cthulu, and many other systems but hearing someone like really say, yes, DnD5 can let you play games with a genre in mind but the mechanics themselves go against the genre or at least don't support it confirms a lot of our after session debates.

[@PersonalityShaman]

1. “Are people even aware that the design of rpg can create a style of play?” - YES. People from the indie / story games community are well aware of that, and were aware of that for the last 20+ years. People from the OSR world know that as well. 2. Still, I think it’s amazing that people from trad / neo-trad are finally starting to have these conversations. I don’t want that to sound rude, I think it’s just the way it is - a lot of people from trad communities that I was interacting with thought that their way of playing rpgs is just the universal way of playing rpgs. 3. System matters, but play culture matters more - quoting Jason Cordova. (And I don’t mean the big “S” Edwardian System, because it encompasses everything :) I think play culture and its norms is much more important than “play style”. 4. Play style and play culture are in my opinion mainly about the game's procedures, not its mechanics. If you want to know more about procedures, check “OSR rpg proceduralism”. 5. Playing different games from different play cultures can help you grow as a player and moderator - you learn different techniques, tools, frames, modalities. You can always take them back to your primary mode of playing. Keep up the good work!

[@005Turk]

Matt's asking the community to do a little more heavy lifting outside of our individual tables, huh. While I agree that people out there are having fun playing 5e, I believe its time we exchange the convenience of our shared oatmeal system. MCDM has to use 5e to ensure it can reach a wide audience, but I think the step the rest of us can take is to elevate a reasonable selection of other games (Call of Cthulhu or PbtA games for example) to the level of 5e in familiarity. This will let us reintroduce a bit of identity missing from the shapechanging formlessness that comes with using 5e as the foundation of our hobby. Thanks for the great video, Matt!

[@AdamPreset]

I’m so appreciative of the Call of Cthulhu callout. It’s a great game. I took up GMing CoC as a pandemic hobby and it’s been a fun but scary way to reconnect with friends. My players have all been so great at playing normal people - it’s not that big a leap! Has there been permanent insanity? Yes. “Retirement” of characters because they need to run away permanently or be annihilated? Yes. Character death? Yes. But we’re all just holding on as long as we can. It could all be over in a moment. Regarding inventory in CoC, have torches died and flashlights run out of batteries? They sure have! Has carrying a light source and attracting attention been a problem? Oh yeah! Even the most trivial possessions have made the difference between life and death. But your wits make a difference, too.

[@ghandimauler]

I've enjoyed the original CoC in happier times. Personally, most of the people I know that game in my groups aren't looking for anymore horror just now. There will be another time where playing CoC will make sense again... any game where running is a pretty important survival attribute has a useful perspective on ones shelf.

[@colbyboucher6391]

This is getting into the idea of rulesets as narrative contracts and I'm super happy that you're discussing it. I've always felt like 5e is in this odd designed by comittee in-between state but I've been treated like I'm crazy for thinking it. I really wish more people stove to find rulesets that support what they want rather than doing some awkward 5e homebrew to hack it into literally everything, when it's *literally* not the "everything game" people want it to be. We have BRP, Mythras, GURPS, FATE, Savage Worlds, etc. for that. And even then they're not "everything games" because there's certain things they're good at. (Speaking of, your friend's setting would be wonderful in Mythras.)

[@paulcrosslin6011]

I love that you took the time to make this! I came back to D&D a few years ago when Adventurers' League was a thing and 5e was, and still is, bringing in a lot of new players. I am very happy that D&D is so culturally pervasive. I am not so pleased that a lot of folks think that the WotC product now being marketed is the ONLY d&d. I was in a playthrough of Rime of the Frostmaiden at my LFGS and, oh boy, those folks needed '12 Poles.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Styles of play and rules creating them is so integral, even something seemingly innocuous can drastically change gameplay. I remember when my group first got into playing starfinder which for all intents and purposes is an extensively homebrewed sci-fi version of D&D 3.5, but starfinder's robust cover rules and Firearm options made it so that the combat played out completely differently compared to our 5e games. In our 5e games, it was either melee or spells: nothing else. We never engaged with the cover, positioning never really mattered, it was a drag race to see who dealt the most damage first. Starfinder on the other hand required us to think about cover, positioning, and even what types of damage we needed to use came up far more often. 5E fulfilled a fantasy for us of being Aragorn on the bridge at Helm's Deep cutting dozens of Uruk's down. Star Finder made us think and made us feel like Spike Spiegel trapped in a cramped Martian Alleyway staring down vicious's goons: it was beautiful.

[@NecromancyForKids]

Wish I could have been in your games, because even playing through the beginning of 3 different campaigns I didn't get that feeling at all. It felt like characters mostly just stood in place to get the maximum number of actions done each round.

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

You just gave the entire OSR a huge boost.

[@DavidCookeZ80]

It made me smile when you mentioned the Fiend Folio and its horror elements. One of the contributors was Charles Stross, who went on to write books including the laundry files series which has elements of Lovecraftian horror, science fiction, and spy craft elements. Personally I think of the evolution of D&D much like a programming language that was originally designed to do one thing well with limited resources (e.g. the way "C" is actually for writing code that's really "close to the metal"). It got popular, and more and more "extensions" were added to it to support more features until it became pretty much general purpose. If you look closely at it you can still see what it was designed for, but with effort you can use it for anything. Which doesn't mean you *should* always use it for your particular problem; there's probably something better suited out there. However, learning something new takes time, so you muddle through with what you know well.

[@Calebgoblin]

The anticipation is killing me but I have to go back and rewatching his "The Dungeon" video first. Save my spot!

[@chJohnJobs]

Here is the spot for ya

[@Calebgoblin]

@@chJohnJobs thx chief

[@Pluveus]

I think the oatmeal analogy is very apt, because oatmeal is a good foundation that you CAN make very interesting if you work at it, which I think is the same for 5e. One of the things I liked about 5e is that although it wasn't as crunchy as 3.Xe or Pathfinder 1e, the streamlined rules made it very easy to homebrew and balance homebrew (for non-min/maxers). Pathfinder's adventures do a better job of conveying a theme, but that's mostly a product of campaign exclusive mechanics.

[@isabellagreen5480]

Mork Borg makes for a great simple dungeon crawler literally OOZING with horror

[@AlVainactual]

Best experience I've had dungeon crawling was playing DCC and having the players fill out a shopping list of things they were missing during the session so they can buy em when they get back to town. Torches, caltrops, 10ft pole, hammer and spikes (for resting), rope, lanterns, bedrolls, rations and waterskins. They had one player go to the store, place a large order, pay half in advance, sweet talk the shopkeeper into giving 10% off for bulk order and the promise of future bulk orders and have them delivered to their base of operations. I could see the gears grinding in their heads while looking at the shopping list in real time.

[@goldenfloof5469]

To store all my nitnacks of course! It's just that somebody once thought there was treasure down there, so they went in, got killed by the bugs who feed off the fungus, and suddenly his stuff was the treasure. Rinse and repeat until it's full of loot that certainly wasn't mine!

[@litis5151]

This reminds me of the feeling I got when 'The Chain' was going to do a heist. We never got to see that heist, but back then I already felt that DnD rules are not really set up to facilitate Heists particularly well.

[@David_Blake91]

The Heist is still going to happen.

[@Hjortkayre]

Almost every heist in a d&d game is like two hours of planning that falls apart immediately when the paladin fails a stealth check or the barbarian has to make a bluff check. It also brings to mind how the Dragon Heist adventure just... Didn't have a heist, really. It's why I like stuff like Blades in the Dark and similar games for that style of play, which elides the planning phase completely and has flashbacks to facilitate cool movie-style cut-ins.

[@KBTibbs]

It's tough, because heists really like the trope of the revealed method. Like in Ocean's 11 we see the plan's ultimate success in flashback rather than in real time. This is, of course, not true of all heists, but it's fairly common and yeah... 5e is not built with that in mind.

[@Schmeisserinho]

you want fantasy heists? Go check out Blades in The Dark, its *about* the criminal underworld of a low magic megacity. It feels like fantasy Ocean's eleven, and runs insanely smoothly.

[@bmyers7078]

TL;DR some homebrew worlds can be used to do whatever the DM wants. I was in a group several years ago, in a low magic nation called Ker’Met. Some magicians were rouges making “illusions” with literal mirrors and smoke bombs. The rest of the spellcasters were Warlocks. Almost all “dungeons” were small tombs. At least one secret door. Usually looted by someone else. Any mummy or skeleton usually killed the tomb robbers. Hit points were very low, and difficult to increase. Most people in armor had leather scale mail. They were rare & usually rich. Some rode chariots. A lot of running away when the negotiations broke down. I was a knife fighter, Keui, who just happened to be a (warlock) priest of Thoth. When I died had 22 max hp, at level 7. I survived 5 duels, lost 1, and was known to trade food or blessings in exchange for the opponent’s willingness to leave. It was frustratingly fun. With a good DM.

[@Repicheep22]

This is exactly what I needed. I have a group of players brand new to the TTRPG hobby, and we decided that it would benefit all of us if we ran a series of one-shots in a bunch of different systems to see what we all like. I made a list of games I've run or have always wanted to run, and while they're liking it so far, they were curious as to why I excluded D&D from the list. I didn't have a good answer for them, but now I do. I'll be sure to share this with them. And if anyone's curious, here's the list. Westbond, Godbound, Dungeon Crawl Classics, City of Mist, Mutants and Masterminds, Tales from the Loop, Cyberpunk Red, Call of Cthulhu I was going for a broad range of genres, playstyles, and mechanics. Wish me luck.

[@akaCyrano]

Thanks for putting words to what I, as someone who stopped playing with 1e in the mid-80s then started back with 5e a couple years ago, have wrestled with and struggled to explain to my kids and others who only know 5e. The DM of my current table has talked about wanting to try an old-school crawl, so I’ve been heavily looking into OSE and DCC as something that I might try to introduce them to.

[@AustinTinkel]

Some system suggestions: - Veins of the Earth. Extremely thematic, does delving into natural caverns and a super weird "Underdark" well. Also has beautiful writing and art. I think most people should read this in general. Technically meant to be used with Lamentations of the Flame Princess but I would recommend against using that system. It can be adapted to fit many of the other systems on this list. - Whitehack 3e. Interesting game with neat ideas and a flexible and elegant system. More narrative focused than most on this list (excluding Trophy Dark). - Trophy Dark. Not exactly a classic procedural dungeon crawler but kind of fits that vibe. Go with this one for something modern and "different". - Worlds Without Number. Modern mechanics that can do more than dungeon crawling but still support that style of play. Incredible random tables and worldbuilding tools. - Black Hack 2e. A retroclone with simple, easy to learn mechanics. Similar to AD&D. Not that similar to Whitehack 3e despite the name similarities. - Old School Essentials. As close as you can get to the original experience but reorganized and with quality of life improvements. - Five Torches Deep. A 5e adjacent dungeon crawler. Go with this if you want something familiar.

[@voland6846]

_Veins of the Earth_ is probably my second favourite "RPG-book I've never ran" (The gold medal still goes to Burning Wheel I think). I couldn't agree more about the beautiful writing and art! There's going to be place in the West Marches 5e game I'm currently running that's heavily inspired by it... Hope my players enjoy that vibe

[@Xenoman14]

5E is like one of those Color by Numbers books. A set of rules and experiences that can be easily replicated. It does allow you to eschew them and create something new and weird. But it'll take a lot of work to get anything other than the picture they printed.

[@batstream42]

Matt, I think I've watched nearly every Running the Game video you've put out, but this I think is your most important one. Thanks for your diligence and insight.

[@DougVehovec]

I took a vacation to Denver a few years ago, and we ordered breakfast one morning from a local diner. And dammit if it wasn't some delicious oatmeal!

[@Adrian_Lee6113]

I love exploring alternate RPGs, I’ve basically started collecting them at this point… what I really want to do within 5e now is play a Beastheart…

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

This is why I'm publishing Shadowdark RPG -- I want to give folks who have only known 5E an easy bridge back into the older school styles of play. Exploration-focused adventuring. This video really hit the logic behind gameplay style on the head. Thanks for making it, Matt!

[@zachary37]

Was literally thinking of Shadowdark as I watched this lol! It looks really cool!

[@dmingtheworld]

Yes!! Shadowdark is the game he's talking about!

[@BreakingStarGames]

Glad Matt dropped the "smug" comment about using the right tool for the job. It's good to explore your tastes and support the industry.

[@lancearmada]

Makes me want to run a dungeoncrawl. Current idea is some sort of curse where people from nearby region must try to kill the big bad else they die, and the big bad has dug deep into the earth and built a dungeon full of traps and monsters to protect themselves over the years.

[@colbyboucher6391]

Plenty of those around! Sort of the classic mega-dungeon scenario honestly.

[@ghandimauler]

@@colbyboucher6391 Maybe the cure for the plague that gradually kills anyone over 25 is held by the big boss. He just wants to keep having new sacrifices come to him willingly (they think they are coming to kill him and get the plague cure). That would justify the sort of raid, wipe out, proceed, rinse repeat model of play.

[@ItsShatter]

I, for one, find oatmeal to be extremely offensive. Cream of wheat is where it’s at 😅

[@tearstoneactual9773]

*slams mug* - HEAR HEAR! Finally someone of intelligence!

[@khpa3665]

Great vid, and your description of 5e reminds me a lot of the mission statement for OneD&D: be everything to everyone. There are a variety of attempts to make 5e more low level. One of my favourites, at least from a flavour point of view (I've not had a chance to bring it to the table yet) is Brancalonia, which is limited to levels 1-6 and is designed to imitate late-medieval Italian picaresque comedy. I love how those designers had an incredibly specific genre they wanted and they went for it.

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

That attempt to be "everything to everyone" is both one of 5e's biggest strengths and a massive weakness. Yes, it appeals to the most people, and a decent DM can make almost any genre work in 5e. It's easy to tweak, hack, and modify. But on the other hand, that means there will always be games that do specific genres better. For example, if I want picaresque fantasy, I'm going to run The Dying Earth RPG, because that's the genre it was designed from the ground up to do, so I don't have to spend any time houseruling or modifying it. And in my experience, if you can ever get a 5e player who wants a specific genre to try another system designed for that genre, they prefer it to 5e. That's how I ended up running The Dying Earth, Runequest, and Numenera, but not D&D.

[@JS-tl7jp]

Be everything to everyone is just such an unhelpful design approach, but such a profitable business approach for wizards. D&D is a solid D&D-type game, but it’s quite a poor ‘diplomats and nobles scheming fantasy’ game, or a ‘psychological horror game’, or even a ‘tactics and battlefields’ game. Selling it marketed as the be all end all is extremely frustrating to me as a fan of the whole medium, because people put their heart into designing games and systems for those fantasies, but receive no notice or can never turn a profit because D&D has all the shelf space and community domination.

[@manwhat7590]

@@GreasusGoldtooth DnD5e doesn't even do being 'everything' better. Generic games do that, depending on if you want to 'simulate everything' (GURPS), 'just wing it' (Fate) or 'I want to customise the whole game at the start, but then have it be simple for my players' (Cortex Prime) among many other choices. Especially when Fate Core is free it makes zero choice to try to adapt DnD to everything.

[@garysturgess6757]

@@manwhat7590 100% agreed. If you wanted to run, say, a space exploration campaign using 5e rules, you would have to do so much work that you'd effectively be creating your own game. To get any value of out 5e at all you pretty much need to fill the 'fight monsters, kill them, take their stuff' style of play and even more so you need to fight _these_ monsters with _these_ spells and _these_ classes. Even d20 was more generic than 5e, and d20 (despite it's claims) was not really good at being generic either (as the Mutants and Masterminds designers discovered, at least).

[@lagautmd]

I LOVE this video. One of your best. There is no ONE D&D/Pathfinder/DCC/Numenera, etc. experience. There is a game style we are all invested in. Back in the 70s we played dungeon crawls constantly (didn't even have that name, it was D&D). We had a 'trope' in our group. We'd throw a "tuna salad sandwich" into a room to see if a monster was in there to gobble it up. We rolled random encounters on each hex of the map. We were 'adventurers for fortune'. I like that style and more modern becoming a big world saving hero style. I will say, though, endless dungeon crawls bore me if for no other reason than they can plod terribly. Maybe it was that particular DM...

[@colbyboucher6391]

Here's another fun vestigial dungeon crawling thing: Y'ever wonder why so many rules involve 10 minute chunks of time? It's because time tracking was important in dungeons, and it was done in ten minute chunks. You move on your grid paper, that's a ten-minute chunk of time. You moved in "turns". You needed to worry about whether you *did* or *did not* choose to investigate something because your torches are burning down, monsters are roaming the halls and might show up at any moment. Time. Matters. Since 5e is still pretending to be D&D, a lot of things still have time limits of 60 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever, mostly multiples of ten. Just a weird vestigial reminder of rules that don't exist any more.

[@Cyb3rHusky]

Matt, this might be your single most interesting video yet. It drives me nuts we don't get to see you on podcasts with other game designers. The outcome of such a discussion would bring such incredible insights.

[@imissnewspapers]

Greg Vaughan, an award winning adventure writer & developer, is currently running a “dungeon crawl” mini adventure as part of our main campaign. We are level 10 (started at level 1) and the gaming group are veteran game developers and publishers - and yet he has captured the feeling of “Old School D&D” - in part because we the players are more than ready to join in on the ride.

[@imissnewspapers]

The party had loaded up on ropes, 10 foot poles, torches and yep a mirror.

[@DangerousPuhson]

Yeah I'm with you - 5E can run all that stuff if you know how to do it. Rulesets are just a mechanism for arbitrating the outcome of choices - all the same the choices are still possible. A 5E character can absolutely turn a mirror against a medusa, or use a pole to check for pits, or fret over light sources... it's just that the designer/DM/player are actively choosing not to incorporate those elements or use that approach, which isn't because "the rules aren't designed to support that", but rather because they just don't know how to think that way or don't care to play the game that way. I'm working through Dungeon of the Mad Mage in 5E right now - I mean, how is that not considered a dungeon crawl? The party still tracks rations, makes long excursions back to town, and worries about fighting monsters that are too strong... all the elements are there, the rules didn't change any of that. Sure there's some options in 5E to help handwave what Matt would consider "essential elements" of a dungeon crawl (like using the light spell to forgo torches), and yes XP in 5E is awarded mostly via combat rather than collected treasure (even though you can totally adapt that with almost no effort), but at the end of the day everything is optional to the game, entirely at the players' discretion to use and the DM's discretion to include. Are some rulesets more suited for some styles of games than others? Yes. Does that suitability exclude usage in that style altogether? Absolutely not! The rules are just guidelines for arbitration, and some recommended tools for characters to use - that's it. There's nothing inherently restrictive about that if you have the skill to adapt a system to be what you need it to be... problem is, most people don't have those skills.

[@Jackofl3lades]

Appreciate the language you use in this, Matt, especially at the end. When I started watching this I started to feel like I was maybe wrong for sticking with 5th edition for a horror game, but then I realized I'm having fun and my friends are having fun so how could it be bad? I never gave it much thought as to what kind of game 5th edition is based on its mechanics but I suppose that's what allows so many 3rd parties to make content for it. I've had to change some rules here and there and definitely add a good amount of homebrew but the D20 system just feels comfortable for my players. I've looked at some horror games and I couldn't find one that would fit for us. I think I wasn't looking for 'no hope, you're all dead' sort of game and more of a horror narrative along the lines of Bram Stoker's Dracula. I wanted that cowboy to be there fighting that vampire while still having a scary time to get there.

[@steventurner6902]

I love ❤️ this fabulous lecture on D&D. So many new and old players need to see this to understand and be reminded where the game came from and how it was played and can be played. Thank you for so elegantly articulating and reminding me of the WHY of D&D.

[@generalhades4518]

the pathfinder 2e playtest was probably the closest my group got to old D&D. once we ran out of resources, i remember us panicking super hard. we didnt manage our resources and seriously fucked ourselves. in retrospect, that was great! we just at the time had the wrong expectation

[@caradine898]

Those playtest scenarios were absolutely brutal

[@diggeroldmate8122]

Agree, after allowing 1E to run wild (and I had heaps of fun playing it), just the fact that 2E has that old school deadliness to it is great. But it also manages heroic rules as a system so well.

[@SnowmanInHell]

PF2 is such an awesome system

[@davidioanhedges]

PF is 3.5 cleaned and tidied so it can, just, do a dungeon crawl, but the PCs are heros even at low-level

[@taytref1]

Listening to Matthew Colville gives me so much inspiration for writing my own campaign.

[@VMSelvaggio]

The Small mirror may also reveal whether that strange fellow or alluring lady is a Vampire, especially if there is no reflection in the mirror of their likeness.

[@chim_4_gamers300]

I really appreciate this video for getting me to THINK about how to run dungeons in 5e. So many people just prescribe tips and tricks, whole sets of homebrew rules, or even just different systems entirely when you start looking at how to run dungeons in 5e. MCDM is right! 5e isn’t designed specifically for dungeons. It’s designed for “Combat, Role-play, and Exploration” writ large. I don’t necessarily want to run dungeons in 5e like they were designed in previous editions, but I also want dungeons as scenarios in a campaign to feel distinct from other scenarios. This really helped me understand why dungeons are a thing and got gears turning about how I’m going to design them with 5e’s specific strengths in mind. Initial thoughts: God of War PS4?

[@sixmonthgaze135]

Well this was sooner than expected

[@dallenerickson9318]

A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one

[@rorybaart8668]

I relistened to the whole playlist over the past days and fully expected it to end after Dael’s reading. What a surprise to have it suddenly continue 😂

[@Poodlestroop]

“It (5e) just sits back and says ‘you’re on your own.’” This is a description (not necessarily criticism) of 5e that I’m seeing and agreeing with more and more.

[@millersj]

If anyone wants a solid, brutal, scary dungeon crawl module for 5e, Steve Winter, one of D&D's OG's wrote the Scarlet Citadel (published by Kobold Press). He addresses some mechanics that makes 5e difficult to run dungeon crawls (e.g. rule that you get exactly one skill check, if you fail, players can't leap frog until there's a success). He goes over details like how threats repopulate rooms if characters leave the dungeon, and it is *deadly.* I've been dying to run it, but everyone's on the RP hype from 5e and few people show interest for old school dungeon crawls these days.

[@Drekromancer]

You know, I liked that last sentence you mentioned, because it brought something to my attention. I'm typically of the opinion that I only want to play TTRPGs if they're able to capitalize on the total creative freedom intrinsic in the medium - so if we're ultimately just doing a crunchy dungeoncrawl, then I may as well be playing a tactical video game. However, you just brought a new possibility to my attention: the capacity for highly creative, problem-solving focused dungeoncrawls. While I still don't want to look at a TTRPG over a strategy game when I think about tactical gameplay, you've made me realize that there is a lot of design space for dungeons that require creative problem-solving in the TTRPG medium. And that makes me interested in approaching TTRPGs in pursuit of something I usually haven't expected from them. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

[@blueshoals]

16:31 I suppose 4e is about super-heroic team-based tactical combat. Maybe that's why I liked it. I kinda felt like I already knew what I was doing when it came to narrative design, exploration, social interaction, and so on. What I really needed as a DM was a robust combat system that made it easy to challenge my group of meta-gaming tactics-loving friends.

[@leandronc]

That's a reason why I think 4e is underestimated. It 100% wasn't trying to be for everyone like 5e, but it knew exactly the type of game it was trying to be, and that played to its advantage, because 4e does what it sets out to do extremely well.

[@ghandimauler]

@@leandronc And our group, after having played from the original little booklets onward, found 3.5 a mess (fun, but not for building foes for high level players or running those encounters) and we found that 4E fixed a lot of the management of high powered foes and of everyone being able to do something every combat (there goes judicious choices for casters... mostly), but what was more or less non-represented was interaction with discovery a bit in the back burner too. It was good for 3 tactical puzzles per game, but after 18 levels, that just got so tiresome we folded it up. And nobody has wanted to go back.