Weapons & Armor and Kits! Designing The Game

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[@archer111000]

4:54 "You've got these two wolves inside of you." One of them snores like "honk shoo honk shoo" and the other snores like "mi mi mi mi."

[@Jadenkarton]

I love how Matt turns system design into incredibly dramatic, gripping stories. How very CINEMATIC.

[@YOSOYXOSE]

Matt could probably make the phone book sound dramatic and gripping

[@kylinsky]

An annoyance I had with the 2014 players handbook was that badass art piece of the Fighter with the shield and spear, and then having nothing really to support that character fantasy.

[@jasonreeves1826]

Beyond being able to use a shield and spear?

[@edwardwelsh3202]

@@jasonreeves1826you can’t use a spear and shield without taking a suboptimal choice or taking a feat.

[@alexandervaucrosson7841]

Pole-arm master?

[@jasonreeves1826]

@@edwardwelsh3202 It can be wielded one-handed along with a shield. You just can't use the versatile feature. Is that what you mean by "sub-optimal?"

[@benjaminjane93]

@@jasonreeves1826 The spear doesn't function like a spear by the rules of D&D 5e. It's a shortsword with the versatile trait. It's a bad longsword. It doesn't do what you expect a spear to do in a game. Like reach. If the Spear had 10 foot reach it would make sense why it has a lower damage die. Because that's what you use a spear for.

[@digitaljanus]

Every DtG installment reminds me of how many D&D sacred cows are just that: decades-old legacy cruft never seriously interrogated from edition to edition. I can't wait to see kits in play!

[@Xplora213]

The hobby both stands tall on the shoulders of giants but those giants definitely have to visit the chiropractor to get the kinks out.

[@life-destiny1196]

@@Xplora213 "giant chiropractor" sounds like a hilarious NPC. somebody should steal that

[@cholulahotsauce6166]

Strongly agree.

[@B-019]

As messy as it is, that's part of what I'm interested in with the Pathfinder Remaster. 2e already killed a few sacred cows... and frankly I think they could still stand to kill a few more. But with the new books they seem to be dropping a lot of stuff that was just there because "it's DnD!" I'm curious to see everything that replaces it! And I'm happy to see a lot of other creators are doing the same with their systems and supplements.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

If you want a D&D like game that seriously cuts down on the number of sacred cows check out Cypher System from Monte Cook Games. Monte Cook was the mastermind behind both Planescape and the 3e core books. When he and some others struck out on their own they created a d20 game that cut out just about all of the sacred cows while streamlining all the key mechanics they loved in ways 5e doesn't even get right.

[@TheLeftHandedGuy]

Kits sound so thematic and fun. Imagining a cloak and dagger Tactician or a shining armor Fury, these off-trope combinations practically build characters themselves! Super cool

[@verdantmistral442]

It kind of sounds like what Matt wanted to do to make a party of clerics fun to run but in reverse. Like want to play an enclave of Knights, suit up with the Shining Armor but everyone picks a difference class. Then you can have your Lancelots, Galahads, Gawains, and more.

[@shae98sc2]

I'm just happy to hear Martial Artist and Fisticuffs are two separate kits. Sometimes you wanna play a wuxia character, and sometimes you want to play a Mike Tyson-style brawler. Running into that issue when making a 5e character that's using unarmed but isn't a monk. As much as monk is the "unarmed" class in that system, it's a fundamentally different style of play compared to a barbarian/fighter multiclass. The former focuses on not getting hit and embracing the mysticism of Qi, and the other ... just decks you in the face. Entirely different styles of play, which I am glad to see iterated on.

[@rionbird6070]

Plus 5e doesn’t support STR based brawlers. If you loved cave woman Aayla from Chrono Trigger, good luck building her RAW.

[@GeebusCrust]

​@@rionbird6070I made a pro wrestler once, but it took until like fourth or fifth level, with a variant human fighter, to get it off the ground. And he wasn't really competitive with the rest of the party, just finally base-level competent. And he still did more damage with improvised weapons than his hands unless he could manage to grapple an enemy, which despite being much easier than 3e, basically never worked.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Sword and Shield (YES BOTH)!. JoCrap will be happy with this.

[@drowbane2259]

The weapon damage reminds me of Powers & Perils. In that game, the different weapons had a different base damage, but it only ranged from -1 to +2. The main damage came from your level of expertise with that weapon. So an expert with a dagger did a lot more damage than a novice with a longsword. I always liked that.

[@stevenneiman1554]

One thing I will say on the subject of multiclassing is that for me, as someone who likes buildcrafting, a lot of the fun of multiclassing isn't about making my character to fit a thematic vision that isn't supported by the class aesthetics of any one class, it's about having more ways to let your character combine abilities to do weird things nobody else can, and asking whether it's worth the cost to get some crazy combo instead of keeping on with the bundled abilities that are designed to work together. That's one thing I loved about how PF2 did multiclassing with the weird feat bundles they called archetypes.

[@punpundit5590]

Making DR into health is functionality identical in the general case - but not the specific, tactical case of "who do we want to face the five goblins, and who do we want to face the ogre?" DR is much better at many small attacks than at few big attacks. "What can you do" isn't just about what active things you can do but also what situations you can confidently walk into.

[@Pe0ads]

Very good point, the fun thing about DR in my head was being a buff paladin in shining armour and having goblins literally be unable to get through it

[@Calebgoblin]

Much love from the Gear Goblin Gang 💚 You have our swords, and our bows, and our axes And an extraneous amount of other stuff

[@solsystem1342]

I second this -Havoc 💚

[@samdoorley6101]

And my 10' pole, bag of caltrops, 10 iron spikes, small silver mirror...

[@The_Murder_Party]

ah yes, the "golf bag" kit XD

[@OlieB]

And my tactical pet rat

[@TheRabidOgre]

I'm so glad you already mentioned not one, but two unarmed kits! Unarmed combat is such a popular archetype, but it's commonly represented poorly, if at all, in RPGs because of the question of how it interacts with elaborate gear systems. Also, making it an option for all classes instead of a class itself also fixes the Monk problem.

[@RaphPatch]

Agreed! I love martial arts action films, so unarmed combat is a core fantasy for me. I feel seen knowing MCDM is cooking so many options for that without locking you into a class.

[@weylins]

Unarmed kits could represent styles or just the divide between striking and grappling arts. And could make weapon focused monks a much better option than they have been to date in other games.

[@Khobai]

i dont think completely unarmed styles are realistic. I like the way monks work in D&D where they primarily use monk weapons and then sneak in extra unarmed attacks like punches and kicks on top of their weapon attacks. Thats more realistic to me.

[@paulie-g]

@@Khobai Well, you can't really impose limits on the OP's fantasy - it's his fantasy, and he loves martial arts films. The problem is that this, as you rightly point out, is incongruous with most other people's medieval-ish fantasies where an unarmed man was called a peasant (and soon dead).

[@quincykunz3481]

the main drawback of armor = health design is that it means that all armor is equally effective against all types of weapons. Damage types and type based resistances could maybe add it back in, but otherwise it means that 20 one-damage attacks from a minigun and one 20-damage deathray do the same thing regardless of what kind of armor they hit. If you're not bothered by that, then armor = hp is fantastic.

[@BurnettGaming]

Yeah this is the only thing that rubs me the wrong way about health instead of damage reduction. I do wonder if damage reduction in lower values can still be a feature of certain kits in the long run. I don't see the harm in it as long as it's not a thing that can ever eclipse overall incoming damage sorta how high AC can feel insurmountable sometimes in D&D. If the highest damage reduction you ever see from a kit is like 3, I think there's still a sweet spot of feeling great when you're hit by many small attacks but still having it do *something* against that big hit. That, paired with increased health for kits I think could create a nice combination of vectors of customization.

[@Khobai]

armor = more hp is passable if not a bit lazy. unfortunately it does very little to make different types of armor feel different. And without kits that would probably be really boring. but I think its fine when incorporated into kits. Since theres other differences between the kits than just what type of armor you can use.

[@deano1699]

@@Khobai just think of it as "some armor eats the damage by blocking it, other armor makes you dextrous enough to avoid taking most of the hit even without a special maneuver". Problem solved. How much of the game do you want the dice to roleplay FOR you, in lieu of just filling in the blanks with your imagination? Wanting everything spelled out explicitly to promote some sense of realistic materials difference is rewarding to a certain type of analytical mind, perhaps, but undeniably not immersive to the group experience... Not to mention severely limited in who wants to sit at the table WITH you to play such a game. A lot of what D&D relies on to be so widely adored in the first place, is the ability to bring a more diverse group to the table, and scratch most of their collective itches better than the alternatives. Seems like MCDM wants to duplicate that effect, with a different, even MORE streamlined set of causes.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

​​​​​​​​@@deano1699, great, now we just imagine things have different qualities while they don't and claim it somehow solves anything. What a great argument /s. The truth is that this by itself is objectively likely to be boring. But, hopefully, there are enough actually interesting and differentiating things to occupy the players' thought without the armor mattering much.

[@deano1699]

@@a_wild_Kirillian the alternative is "write more rules to cover specificities, then keep them in balance against all the other rules, forever." If this game's not your style, there are all sorts of other games (D&D included) that have you covered already. As for me, I've long been in the Hit Points != Meat Points camp, because it just makes way more sense to scale the RP rather than the rules around a physiology that would enable two identical twins of similar height and weight to have a multiply or even exponentially different number of HP based solely on their class and level. Back to the example/complaint, though: it *sounds* like the "difference in resistances" for armor are going to be expressed - as ACTION opportunities, rather than more math time. We'll have to see where they land on it.

[@danfelder8062]

Can confirm "armor grants more health" just works. Been using that in my own systems for about 6 years now and it's never been an issue. Health is already an abstraction.

[@cruye9633]

as soon as you said "Shining Armor" the kit concept instantly fell into place in my head. It really is such a great solution. I'm tempted to try and rip it off and stuff it into the games I'm already running, until the MCDM RPG is out.

[@Stigvandr]

I've always wanted to play a bo-staff archetype that wasn't monk-y, and I can already imagine tweaking a ranger kit to make "Wanderer".

[@NonRegnumDei1934]

This is viable in 5e with druidic warrior and shillelagh, just saying!

[@SovaGospodarSnova]

You previously mentioned that classes can have more badass things over skill buy system because you don't have to balance hundreds of combinations by making everything boring. If choosing armor+hand+hand was a skill buy point, you just invented "classes" for equipment and that sounds pretty neat

[@taiyakitimewarp4203]

Whenever choosing weapons for D&D (or similar) games, I realized it all came down to players choosing their "fighting style" - the way in which they envision their character fighting. Whenever I work on smaller "lite rules" games, I usually group weapons into a small list of broad/generic categories. Then each category has one simple, easy-to-remember trait. This way it doesn't really matter what specific weapon you wield (appearance is up for the player to decide). "Kits" seem pretty similar to this, but I like how you expanded it to include more character aspects rather than just "what happens when you fight with this weapon". My only concern is what happens if a character is in a dire situation and must fight with a weapon they aren't used to (such as a situation where they don't have their favored weapon and must grab something - anything - to defend themselves). Temporarily gaining a new kit doesn't feel right, so perhaps they just fight without the benefits of their favored kit? (showing their inexperience with this different weapon). Then once they get their old equipment back, they're back to fighting with their original kit features? I'd love to see how your game handles these sorts of situations. So far it sounds like a very amazing game :D

[@HollowedEyeHounds]

hi Matt Colville of MCDM

[@Jellyhead9000]

Love these vids. Great to get an insight into process. Couldn't keep myself from commenting though Matt: If 3 goblins hit you for 3 damage each you lose 9 hp. If you have 3DR and those 3 goblins hit you, you lose no hp. DR and HP aren't exactly the same. Although the math may work out similarly, the fantasy is different. Being robust enough to take a lot of hits feels different to being sturdy enough to prevent yourself from being hurt. The enemy that can cut you thinks they can win, but the enemy who can't land a hit may be dissuaded from trying. Also, people naturally feel more comfortable being on full health than getting chipped at.

[@lydiasteinebendiksen4269]

Idea Suggeation: So, Talent with shining armor. What if in a way simmilar to proficiencies in d20 fantasies, your class tells you what sort of benefits you can gain from kits? So say that a Talent can't gain health, meaning kits focused on that are generally worse, but if you have a cool idea it's still possible to make it work? Possably make it capped, so the Talent can benefit from health up to 5hp and then stops benefiting, or benefits by half the remaining? I know that if I was playing a psionic mage-esque character and wanted to pick a heavy kit, I would be doing it for the action, not for the bonuses. Alternatively, make kit bonuses scale with values given by a class to a simmilar effect, if your classes have the room for that kind of design without getting ugly. Anyways good luck, and thanks for making something awesome!

[@K_E_Robin]

Even though I'm not within the target demographic of MCDM's RPG I really, really want emphasize somthing: Matt, you and your team are geniuses for making it possible to play a Belmont, based on your games current character options. Class: Censor. Kit: Whirlwind. Thank you!

[@juicedchannel]

I think people are drawn more to minmaxing if experience is otherwise the same. Hit with sword for d8 dmg, or hit with a smaller sword for d6? Easy choice. But if the smaller sword let's you do an unique cool ability? I think way more people would be into that! Great job, can't wait to pledge ❤

[@pablodisciascio8229]

Crazy that veteran game designers wouldn't think about it. Either that or they cared so little about the product and wanted nothing more than get the playerbase to come back from PF after 4e's failure... Na, it could never be that... Right?... Sigh.

[@Xplora213]

@@pablodisciascio8229 no, it’s straight up “be nice”…. They care about the product but you have to pay homage to your roots at the same time. The trident and net SHOULD be a celebrated combo but the D&D rules lean in favour of other archetypes. Once we accept that reality it’s easier to not get salty. Honestly a kit in place of weapon specialisation is far more pleasant to roll with…

[@luvmewoad3484]

This was solved in AD&D

[@FrostSpike]

Maybe that longer sword can't be used when you're "grappled" or "squeezing" down a narrow passage, but the shorter sword can?

[@Xplora213]

@@FrostSpike yep, exactly - we shouldn't have dudes cruising around with spears in tiny dungeons.

[@Stranger66666]

Big fan of the 'kits' idea. It's one of my favourite design choices in a recent game I've picked up called 'Dark and Darker'. Feels very class defining and helps give a sense of identity to your builds within the framework presented. Definitely a cool way of reframing proficiency that's still palatable to the average player

[@edwardp4417]

Very excited for MCDM RPG. Can't wait hear the name of it. Love the name 'Flee, Mortals!' and I'm sure the RPG will have a dope name too.

[@KristoVaher]

Is the name not MCDM RPG?

[@Jimbo5900]

@@KristoVaher that’s just the placeholder

[@edwardp4417]

@@KristoVaher nah, just like Flee, Mortals! was originally referred to as The MCDM Monster Book.

[@joshuahampton6141]

New Title: Charge, Mortals!

[@pippastrelle]

Game design is endlessly fascinating. All this discussion about having to stop and rethink what fantasties are and whether the conventional way to achieve in fact achieves them

[@MarxMayhem]

When you were describing kits, my thought process was "4e builds, but you get all the feats involved at 1st level", which is both awesome, and something 4e DMs should look into making in case new people want to try out that edition and have a preset expectation of their character.

[@philipplyanguzov9090]

I was facing a similar weapon balancing issue with the added caveat of wanting to preserve a level of historical realism. My splution was to borrow from lancer and morrowind. A longsword is no longer a longsword, its now a weapon belonging to the longblade and sidearm category. Your character can train either or both categories to gain access to abilities within the weapon groups. So a longsword character can also use any other longblade (i.e. a greatsword) or sidearm (i.e. dagger or pistol) but they are best at using longswords specifically.

[@RevocerGM]

Oh this is cool. If I'm understanding it correctly, it could also solve a problem that I've had with basically every rpg/crpg/etc - and that is that none have ever fulfilled the fantasy of 'right tool for the job' - perhaps certain character classes could change or adopt a new kit in a given scenario (a new day or something in preparation for a particular challenge)? Picture a fantasy classic in Aragorn (both in the movies and described in the books) - we see him start off in the full 'ranger' aesthetic: practical, light clothing, in dark and natural tones while skulking about in the wilds. He then continues to change throughout the series, being armed in different ways depending on the situation; ultimatley, garbed in resplendent plate-mail for the battle at the Black Gates. Aragorn didn't need to take a 'feat' for that, or level-up; he just needed different 'kits' for different situations because they were appropriate and he was well trained. Or you have the modern day commando: they are fully trained (I assume) in multiple types of situations; they can operate multiple types of weaponry, they're not limited by a choice they made at 'boot-camp' - but they know, sometimes a high powered, automatic rifle is not going to be useful in all situations, etc. These archetypes/fantasies are the highly trained combatants, so I wouldn't expect to see this for all or even many types of characters.

[@SeiferVII]

That sounds like a cool specialty for a specific class, so they can be balanced around that fantasy specifically, without worrying about a character out-shining the other swordsman at swords stuff, then the archer at archery, then the swashbuckler at fencing, then the knife wielder at cutthroat assassination. Don't know what it would be called but it is definitely a fun archetype that exists in fiction. Or maybe they can just allow you to change your kit as you level up, which would also help any character achieve the fantasy of growth and change without being unbalanced, since they can't change up their build willy nilly between each dramatic scene to keep the spotlight on them. Aragon didn't exactly go back to do much ranger stuff after he went back to Gondor at the Battle of Minas Tirith, for example, so it also fits. Or they can do both! Make a class that can do it between level ups, but also allow any character to do it on a level up.

[@julianbushelli1331]

Yeah! One thing to note there is that Aragorn only switches kits, as it were, at major points in the story, at minimum the equivalent of a "long rest," but more like when a new whole stage of the adventure began. I think at any one time having only one kit, but being able to switch them relatively easily (but not too easily) at an appropriate break in the narrative would work nicely.

[@SeiferVII]

@@julianbushelli1331 That's why I think on level up would be appropriate, since we already know they're using a class and level based system. It especially fits if they've got like a milestone system to level up.

[@raymondharnack4160]

The panther reference brings me great joy, massive Conan fan

[@NisGaarde]

Weapon properties vastly influence the amount of damage they deal. Along with your strength _and_ often more importantly, skill and technique.

[@zac9933]

I'm sure you guys will have had this consideration, but, when talking about armor you said: 1) if you take the armor off you lose those hitpoints 2) you aren't concerned with how long it takes to put armor on and take it off I think you need to clarify in the rules somewhere how/ when armor "hp" recovers. Similarly, i think you need some rule to do with donning armor in combat, otherwise you could go buy 3 suits of armor and hot swap them mid combat when your armor hp gets low. You could also just make it to where the armor hp is equal to whatever your best armor is and is static across all armor until armor recovers thus preventing any mid combat armor swapping. tl;dr Without caring how long it takes to don/doff armor you need a rule to mitigate armor swapping during combat for cheesing hp.

[@solaries3]

Having armor give HPS means armor "reduces" magic damage. Even if that magic might be flavored as a poison, disease, or psychic damage.

[@fungalmage3336]

The obvious answer to "How do we support this fantasy?" is just "Here's a bundle of gear that supports your playstyle." Simple, and effective; I'm looking forward to it. There are a lot of really fun visuals I get when thinking of making a character in D&D, or Skyrim, or any number of other fantasy games, but actually fulfilling that specific fantasy always means trying to scrape it together from all the disparate elements that the game has. I really want a game that'll let me feel like an indomitable, claymore-weilding knight, or a smug, fleet-footed duelist with a rapier, or just a brutal enforcer with the cheap armour of a two-bit mercenary, but with hefty gauntlets which make up for the lack of a weapon. Each one of these videos makes me more excited for the game, and crucially, gets my creative juices flowing for the systems *I'm* working on. I've always had a passion for game design, and this is exactly the kind of discourse I've been missing since I wrapped up school.

[@Lurklen]

I like this solution, for this kind of game. It really fits within the milieu it's going for, and it doesn't leave the simulationist tissue behind that is going to confuse people. It's not that kind of game, and that's fine. Great in fact, if those are the stories you want to tell. I think the one issue with this whole concept, and the way it's been applied to games, is the difference in the stated goal of simulating the use of these weapons and the desire to make them each a fun tool for adventure. The truth is, a dagger and a spear are two totally different classes of weapon. They have different uses, and though they inflict similar injuries through similar means, but they are not equivalent to each other. In most scenarios, someone using a dagger against just about any other melee weapon, is at a significant disadvantage. It's not an unwinnable scenario (I have seen people do it in practice) but it is an unenviable position to be in. What daggers are really good for is being up close, inside someone's defenses, and inflicting the maximum harm by slipping in through or around armour. Sneaky, or desperate, or grappling range combat. A spear is basically the opposite of that, it's really good at keeping the wielder out of harms way, and getting through or around armour, while being fast and allowing you to face multiple opponents at once. It's a main weapon over a side arm. It's really bad in close range though, and kind of a pain to keep around when you aren't actually fighting. They are better or worse tools depending on their application. D&D (and other games) struggle with this. But then there's the fantasy. The idea of the dagger wielding hero who moves fast as lightning and can strike 20 times before their enemy is able to defend themselves, and can knock arrows from the air before they are struck, their knives a blur of steel. That's really cool, and has no bearing on reality at all. A game needs to decide which philosophy they want to embody, because trying to combine the two is just going to make people unhappy, and either overcomplicate, or simplify the weapon system, and leave some part of their audience unsatisfied. Kits allow you to hone in on the fantasy, and embrace it, without qualifying the aspects of it through "But how does that work?" It's not that kind of game. I like the noodly "Ah, so daggers are only really good for up close." games. But this sounds like a lot of fun, and like it will work better for some of the crowds I run for.

[@jollaffle]

Such clean, straightforward and evocative design. Even just hearing the names and the concept without any of the specifics is enough to get the wheels turning with ideas!

[@corvanphoenix]

As someone who fights 14th C style, in plate, with shields & melee weapons, I hope skill comes into this combat system somewhere. It's far more important than "attributes" in attack & defence scenarios. How well you know what you're doing, & don't fk up, has far more to do with how combat goes than who's the strongest or most dextrous.

[@Khobai]

the wizard with panther kit IS a popular fantasy archetype though... like elric of melnibone. if your game doesnt allow that archetype its going to be a problem.

[@nadirku]

The first game I remember player where armor acts mainly as a health increase, instead of damage reduction was the Shin Megami Tensei series (Shin Megami Tensei IV), they also made every choice of armor come with a set of damage type resistances, and weaknesses. It was an interesting system looking back on it, more so than a lot of other systems you would generally know exactly how much damage a given attack would do against every enemy (unless you inadvertently attacked a damage type with a resistance/immunity), and weaker enemies still "posed a threat" because they would still drain your health when they occasionally got a hit in, potentially causing a "death by a thousand cuts" scenario if you were not careful.

[@macc4835]

Honestly, You have never disappointed in the past. Dont see you doing it in the future. Your love and drive for this is inspiring.

[@delongjohnsilver7235]

One concern about Kits and health is it has an assumed adventuring day and combat length. I’m sure the -3 over 10 rounds = 30 extra health is just an example, but if its kept, y’all may need to borrow from Sentinel Comics and have a (not necessarily) gamified outline on how encounters/adventures are intended to be played.

[@GimdalStoutaxe]

But remember, the longer combat goes on, the better your stuff becomes - - and that includes the party's healer and his healing spells (probably)!

[@Blindeyes1431]

The best part of a system is character creation. Simplifying that I think doesn't benefit the longevity of a game, only makes it initially accessible. This sounds like a step up from Fighting Styles in 5e, which doesn't make me terribly excited.

[@milesCarmany]

This seems like a great way to fix some of the legacy names for some weapons and armor that seem to be used for grognards. We can use Arming swords and Brigandine armor now, as long as it can be described within the kit system.

[@aemorion]

Sick! A new designing the game video is out!

[@mattczopek8454]

Love the Midnight Suns shoutout, such a great game by great devs!

[@kylekillgannon]

Now if the kits give you preset stat bonuses when you level up you've essentially made Dragon's Dogma!

[@duttdits]

I and another GM I've been playing with for over a decade are designing our own system, and I'm also currently grappling with everything being as viable as everything else. This has been super helpful.

[@johanneshermansson7630]

this idea seems so genius that this video is like a comfort watch for me. Weirdly, it's this that has made me the most stoked for this game

[@aenorist2431]

15:40 I know you are really aware that this is not actually true, but true enough around the number of hits you can actually expect to take. In reality, DR makes you immune to swarms and is useless against ogres, and vice versa for HP - you just assume it'll average out enough not to matter. Still, claiming equivalence with a straight face and not even a sidenote ... its *a* choice, for sure.

[@JohnnyTightIips]

Kits sound like such an elegant solution to the problem, I commend thee.

[@GreatestRedPanda]

I wonder how having maximum health increase as the predominant defense modifier for armour will interact with healing? Seems like having drastically variable health based on equipment could make it hard to balance healing.

[@michaeljerde4327]

The winged mini over Colville's shoulder on the left looks dope!

[@hive_indicator318]

It was a kitbash for Ajax the Invincible Overlord, the bbeg for the Chain stream (and his current world, Orden)

[@Ozai75]

@@hive_indicator318 Ajax the Invincible Overlord, the Iron Saint!

[@savnana3605]

I absolutely love the idea of mixing and matching classes and kits. Playing a Shining Armor Shroud could be a really interesting fantasy.

[@Mammothbronco]

Seeing the iteration on systems is very inspiring and a great window into the game we may soon play. Time to kit up.

[@weylins]

I love this so much. In a cinematic style game (and in so much of the fiction that inspired us all to play thtese game), arms and armor and magic items used are often as much an archetype as the characters are. So kits fit that perfect

[@josepulga363]

Love this! It'll be an absolute hut! Love the clarity & versatility!

[@logan3770]

12:10 is somewhat worrisome. I was very excited about kits being a way to martial my casters - as someone who absolutely never plays monoclassed casters because melee combat is core to the fantasy of being a hero to me; Kits being a way to properly create a monoclassed "gish" with the Talent or similar class would be vital. It would be very disappointing for kits to not permit that gameplay. When I first saw the Talent for 5e I was super hyped to build something like the Battlemind from 4e - and I can, but only if I take a level of fighter first. For players like me, it would be ideal if Kits allow for this kind of "gishing" with every class from the jump.

[@noahpage5513]

I'm in the exact same boat. Banning mages from taking martial kits feels like a clunky answer for the problem they were trying to solve. Maybe instead of outright banning mages from taking kits that make them tankier, it would be better to offer them sufficient incentives for squishier kits. That way the "every mage can be a gish" option is still there, but isn't the optimal choice by such a wide margin that traditional squishy mages aren't also a fully valid playstyle.

[@JohnDoe-bf7hb]

Well, just work with your director to make a 'kit' to fit your fantasy. Doesnt seem hard to me. And if you dont want to do that, or your Director doesnt, the they can just allow you to take a kit you normally couldent for the sake of the fantasy. Lets the Director gatekeep from the 'min-maxers' who just want the big HP pools on their squishy caster and dont want to be the 'gish'.

[@DJbeeker421]

Home brewing at it's most primal is when a player asks for a rule variance because they're not doing what they thought they were gonna be doing. So you ask "what exactly are you trying to do?" This kit plan sounds like a really really easy way to homebrew in a tweak for 'fantasy ' without affecting balance

[@morgandyoung]

Great solution! Reminds me of the old AD&D kits, but with greater impact. Loved those, so much flavor, but glad you're taking it to a place where it matters. Hope it works out.

[@A_Pocket_Theory]

In my heavy MMORPG days (World of Warcraft specifically) there was a big discussion around "Effective Health" VS "Avoidance." Heavy armor giving health refreshed those memories.

[@micahgreen409]

So cool. I think this system might be a bit too Tactical for me, but I'm loving the philosophy and the process! Armor as bonus HP makes so much sense too!

[@Rookie_Pyro]

Way simpler and more intuitive than proficiency! And you are free to choose any weapon within a kit without having to say "my guy has a falchion but im using the rapier stats".

[@MChristopherP]

Functional difference and perception difference is such a profound thing. I'm so glad ya'll are in that space. That's incredibly good to hear. So many games I've tested don't understand the idea of how something plays versus how it FEELS. I love what I'm hearing.

[@devinforsyth8642]

This is sounding more and more like something that I have always felt about hit points: that, instead of representing a level of bodily health, or severity of injuries, it is a numerical way to show how close to defeat a character or monster is. This lets the system match up with the cinematic of a fight, where the heroes can’t hurt the enemy, but eventually work together to create an opening for a killing blow. Instead of chewing through 200 hit points a few at a time, looking like having to draw blood 40 or 50 times before they are done.

[@DimaJeydar]

Love it! Sometimes you just want to go for the vibe and it seems like this game is all about that while making sure you don’t feel useless compared to others. Can’t wait for the kickstarter!

[@stevenstevenson9365]

God, it is ridiculous how confident I am in you guys, and how excited I am for this game. Every video that comes out here I just find myself saying "that's such a good way to deal with that" or "yeah I had that same issue with [other d20 games] myself!". What fantastic designers you are. Something I have found in my own (very limited) designing experiance is that in a game, I would rather choose 1 out of 10 cool, powerful options, than 10 things out of 100 tiny options. The move from weapons to kits reflects exactly that idea. Keep up the amazing work!

[@stevemanart]

2:32 my greatest joy in system mastery during the 3rd-ed era was (at first smugly but eventually growing up and being adult about it) teaching newer players which options were the wrong answers.

[@M.Melnick]

I really enjoy the "Designing The Game" videos. I enjoy the thought process behind the design choices. Thank you for doing these videos.

[@clarkevan]

I love how final fantasy 12 did armor. Heavy armor increased attack, light armor increased HP and mystic armor increased Magic. In my head, heavy and light should be flipped, but you get the idea. This made it so your caster had a reason to wear robes that wasnt simply, you cant wear heavy or light armor.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

Ya its weird

[@unwithering5313]

If I was to guess why Heavy and Light armour gave what they did: Heavy Armour would greatly increase the weight on your person which could translate to more weight behind your movements. As for Light Armour, the lack of weight could mean it's less strenuous to your body which means you take longer to tire which could translate to higher HP. Does that mean that realistically wearing no armour should be like Light Armour or even boost the HP gain? Maybe, BUT... Armour kinda needs to be objectively better overall because they are designed to be used. That's my two cents on it.

[@Connor-ll9ul]

I have an insane amount of respect for any designer trying to make a “tactical” fantasy game where your strength is ACTUALLY in your tactics and choices, not choosing the secret Best Option at level 1. The amount of effort into making sure players can build their fantasy of character without hitting either end of the power bell curve instantly is so impressive.

[@felipeuseche332]

I may be thinking out of turn here. But as a forever (and happy) GM, the idea of kits sounds so much fun when designing really fast, really cool enemies. Just slap a kit unto a goblin and you have a brand new monster.

[@MalcIgg]

Now this does seem interesting - and really "like the we did this, but found it didnt work for us" arts of the dialoge -- look forward to seeing more :)

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Great idea. Theres a bunch of archetypes that a big list of weapons just can't properly support. Notably anything involving multiple objects that isn't a very specific video gamey dual wielding archetype. With kits, you can do things like sword and shield. Sheildwall (spear and shield). Gladiator (net and trident/other weapon). It also means you can do things like oversized weapons. I was thinking about how I'd make a Guts style character in DnD and what I settled on was using a weapon so big that I actually just didn't have proficiency in it. Which is messy and likely a balance nightmare. Kits could just have "oversized weapon" as a kit. Where you get a bunch of abilities and stat modifiers that really represent your character wielding a sword the size of a tree trunk. Another way to think of it is "fighting style". I really like it. I hope your spellcasting kits are just as interesting. Theres a big difference between the fantasy of a wizard with a wand, vs a character with a tome in one hand and a mace in the other. Hell, a kit could even replace the idea of the "basic attack replacement cantrip" that classes like Warlock and the Pyromancer Talent have. Eldritch Blast and Flame On are both basically just replacements for your attacks, they could be kits.

[@seanford5114]

The fantasy of armor is not health. It is to not get hit or not get hit as hard. Mechanically it might be the same to just get more health but that isnt the fantasy, thats isnt the feel we want from Armor specifically Heavy armor.

[@CJWproductions]

have often thought about this exact idea myself, so I'm jazzed to see it in print

[@willlagos8554]

Here’s the thing: these videos are rad as hell. I love learning about game design like this - I feel like I’m graduating from Running the Game to Creating the Game! Achievement Unlocked, MCDM.

[@jamesjohnson1290]

This is so exciting. I have loved the “weapon master” subclass/prestige class and have loved the idea of a fighter that can swap between weapons in combat for different effects. I have a homebrew subclass for 5e that somewhat accomplishes this, but the kit idea will simplify it so much. I can’t wait to see the product and play!

[@AveragePearEnjoyer]

This kit design is also vaguely in Xcom 2, so its kind of cool how this game can trace its genealogy back to one of my favs. The kits are more like classes, and you also equip armor and special items separately. But the weapons are always a bundle of two Xcom 2 "kits" (more like classes) Ranger: shotgun + sword Grenadier: cannon + grenade launcher Sharpshooter: sniper + pistol Specialist: assault rifle + combat drone psi operative: assault rifle + psi amp (spellcasting focus) SPARK: (robot) big gun + interchangeable heavy weapon (rocket launcher, flamethrower, etc) Skirmisher: SMG + hand blade thing Reaper: rifle + remote bomb Templar: psychic gauntlets+ pistol

[@cllaay]

Ok yeah, i remember seeing the early weapon design attempts and wanting to believe but not quite seeing it. This I BELIEVE in! I’m super excited for kits

[@LandonTheDM]

Oh nice excited to watch and for the backerkit campaign

[@WubbBass]

I'm working on my own dice-based combat ttrpg, and it's nice to see so many similarities in your approach to iteration! I agree that dead-ends are very instructive. Being confident in scrapping content is hard, but swallowing one's ego and having no sacred cows is essential. My playtesters hate having to un-learn stuff but it's for the greater good :)

[@callahanjohnson]

Can't wait to find out more about this RPG! Loving the Designing the Game series and the decisions MCDM is making. Game sounds super fun!

[@MarcusBeirne]

Kits initially reminded me of the Jobs system in Final Fantasy Tactics, but i think kits are so much more! Jobs tend to be necessarily restrictive, to make balancing easier, but it sounds like Kits will allow for a lot of customisation. And modularity maybe, how easy will it be to change kits?

[@flatline42]

Just spitballing but it should be doable but not trivial IMO. Different weapons require different skills, different armor requires different behavior to maximize it's use (learning to turn a blow with your plate vs getting out of the way with lighter armor) so I don't like the idea of just putting on different kits willy nilly. But if every X levels you gained a new kit you gained proficiency with, or just allowing you once per level to change kits, or something similar, that would work for me. As your character got better they'd become more situationally flexible. Another option although it's starting to get complicated would be to have kit families, aka related kits that you could move between easily. So Cloak & Dagger could combine well with Second Story Man and Infiltrator and Assassin. You gain access to the Stealth kit family, and can move between those kits. You're a character that relies on subterfuge, so moving between those related kits is easier for you. But going and getting armored up in the Bulwark family is a significantly different

[@Leterren]

speaking of Final Fantasy Tactics it's one of (maybe THE) only video game RPGs I know of that has armor simply increase your HP and even all the way back when I played it for the first time as a kid I could see that it was a pretty elegant solution

[@bamcki991]

I really dig the design of armor. IT'S SO SIMPLE!

[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

Armor as extra HP. The synchronicity of when a more popular game designer comes up with an idea that you came up with close to a year ago is both amazing and frustrating, as this was a very similar armor mechanic that I used for my D&D-esque system, DtwenD (the development vlog is on my channel). And that's pretty much the end of the narcissistic part of this comment. With regard to kits, I like it. It sort of reminds me of how Legends of the Wulin handled martial arts styles: each style gave you bonuses to specific combat skills, such as Speed, Footwork, Strike, Block, Damage, and Toughness. Having multiple styles provides greater versatility on how to handle different combat scenarios. It was also possible to improve one's proficiency in a style, though only to a limited extent (so there is no maxing out every combat skill in a style to make it the omni-style). As far as the concept of combining class and kits are concerned, this is very reminiscent of character creation in Cypher System, where a PC is composed of three parts: their descriptor, their role, and their focus, which is formalized as "I am a [descriptor] [role] that [focus]" (i.e. I am a that ). The descriptor provides one-time benefits and traits, while the role and focus give you more benefits as you go up in rank.

[@osetor7457]

The main concern that has popped in my mind is that the way classes are *described* for this game sounds very rigid. Like if you play a particular class, they will always do the same things, so playing the same class multiple times can get samey from a pure mechanical point of view. The main ways to fix this that i can see at least is that either you make a high number of classes so it doesn't really matter that each one is so defined, because you will probably always have something new to play when you start an adventure/campaign, or you add things within each class to customize them. Each class so far is clearly *really* goddamn good at what they're supposed to do, which is definitely its own benefit, but could also be a detriment to replaying that class. (of course, plenty of people are probably content with playing the same thing over and over again, and i have nothing against that person) This is one of my main issues with 5e and what got me to start making my own system as well (already taken some bits of inspiration from things described in these videos as well), so i am curious about what your solution or plans are. Great video, this is some of my favorite content on youtube.

[@BasementMinions]

Sounds pretty exciting! Looking forward to seeing its final implementation :)

[@stephenpatterson2860]

Really excited by this design! I love the idea that it's the character's skill and not the weapon itself that determines the damage.

[@doug5538]

I really like this idea, it is should be really helpful to people new to the hobby because the names speak to an idea outside RPG lingo. These can also be sub categorized into the “monster types”; tank kits, artillery kits, support kits, skirmisher kits, etc.

[@trendane]

And my first thought after you asked if a Talent could take the Panther Kit was of a Talent who wanted to dress that way so badly that they took on the constant burden of extra Strain to help them wear it.

[@jf649]

Love the idea of kits as multiclassing or „style packages“. To me it sounds like a combination of a weapon category, fighting style, weapon properties and feats in one (even armour, movement as you mentioned or battle readiness/speed for instance). As such I think they make great replacements for classical feats and subclass-features. If balanced right you could have a base archetype class, warrior, then have kits as you level up to add flair. Great

[@BillNyeTheBountyGuy]

Random musing: Loot can be simplified as well or customized as a reward. 'Oh you get 3 Orc Berserker Kits. They're worth x gold and instead of the normal cleave ability they have those Orc's blood rage they used that encounter where they could prevent themselves from going down.'

[@samwagner787]

I am curious about the example of a swashbuckler being unable to wield a heavy axe. I’ve had many occasions at my table where a player wants to use a weapon type that is not traditionally used by whatever class they are playing. I’ve always had them undergo a period of training or other similar thing to simply gain proficiency with that particular weapon. How will your system handle that sort of situation? Can a player change their kit? Is it possible to introduce new weapon or armor types to your existing kit?

[@Ranko85]

Hearing this, it sounds amazing. Great idea on kits. It would be amazing to have a ton of them. Really looking forward to the campaign. Also, you are visibly excited for all this, which is great to see. A lot of drama and quite a bit of panache in the presentation, I love it!

[@andyreichert499]

I had similar ideas, but instead of focusing on the equipment, I called them fighting styles and then had equipment requirements for the styles. But then it makes sense to attach all sorts of skills or abilities to the fighting styles.

[@andrewwelsh9194]

Perfect timing! Been needing to work on Armor and Equipment Kits for my RPG, and I was going to hit the drawing board today! Can’t wait to see where my ideas and current understanding go from here!

[@sterlinggecko3269]

I made a bunch of archetypes for my Pathfinder WW1 game a long time ago, basically made class-independent party roles with a stack of abilities to help do that role. could even have a healer without being a divine caster. the dual pistol guy would fire a bunch, then his guns would jam, and he'd have to toss them to the actual Gunslinger to quick clear them. the first time that happened, he was like 'oh, you left the safety on' and tossed it back.

[@krinkrin5982]

The difference between extra health and damage reduction is that DR's effectiveness at getting you 'bonus health' scales with the number of hits taken. Really interested in the different kits and how they will work in practice. Coming from 3e, I liked the variety of weapons in that rulebook. It gave you some thematic variation, while supporting multiple builds. Want a steady, predictable damage, pick up a greatsword. Want devastating crits? Greataxe. Want to be inconspicuous? Scythe, or dagger. Want to maximize your crit chance? Rapier or scimitar. Fighting against chargers? Any of the multitude of polearms. The only downside was that most monsters did not care about the damage type of the attack. 5e criminally gutted that system.

[@toddpickens]

That approach to armor is elegant and brilliant. Having to keep track of deducting 3 points every round sucks. Buying a suit of armor that gives you 30 additional health feels awesome.

[@joewestla]

What I don't like about armor as HP is that it forces me as the GM to target a number of encounters in an adventuring day. Gotta create pressure on that HP somehow. Unless you take the PF2E approach and balance the game on a per encounter basis. No concerns then.

[@romantheflash]

Kits are very cool - and lovely to test. Just a few numbers and a special ability to comment on. They are super fun!

[@aidanboyle7374]

I'm really glad that friend solidified your ideas by mentioning Midnight Suns, but... that isn't how Midnight Suns works at all, the suit you wear is only cosmetic. I really wonder what they were talking about

[@TheLeftHandedGuy]

I think it's the different collars. I believe those only give you small boosts, whereas kits sound more varied/impactful. But yeah, I am similarly glad we got here 👍