ME262 First Engine Run-Up

On September 25, 2019 the Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum celebrated a momentous day and ran the Jumo 004 engines on the ME 262 warbird expected to take to the skies soon.

[@MilitaryAviationHistory]

Seeing this bird fly just went straight up to #1 on my bucket list.

[@fight2flyphoto]

It and the Stuka will be pretty epic projects once completed. Imagine a formation of Bf 109, Fw 190, Stuka, and this... all original airframes, all powered by their proper engines.

[@luclanglois9086]

Whats up bro

[@briantincher9284]

Amazing piece of physical history!!!

[@gunnarthefeisty]

Sadly it never will

[@Prestone44]

First time a hear a Riedel and a JUMO 004 roaring. Same sounds as 75 years back in time ! Thank you for the video.

[@Melanie16040]

Never thought I'd hear this combo...

[@steffenriedel2022]

By the way, the Riedel-Starter was build by my father Norbert Riedel

[@Prestone44]

@@steffenriedel2022 Full respect to your father.

[@muhammadsiraj5537]

@@steffenriedel2022 Could you contribute some videos on the life and work of your father? Respect and admiration for your dad's work

[@steffenriedel2022]

@@muhammadsiraj5537 Thank you very much. Unfortunately I have no videos of my fathers work, especially of the "Riedel-Starter". My father died in 1963. I wrote only a book about his life and his work wich contains the story of the "Riedel-Starter" and the cooperation with the americans after the second world war. This book is available e.g. at amazon. The title is "Norbert Riedel - Ein Ingenieursleben" it costs 31.93 $. But i wrote it in german. By the way, it is fascinating for me to hear a "Riedel-Starter" at work, because on other vieos with the ME 262 at start, they replaced the "Riedel-Starter" by a turbine. I don't understand this.

[@wimheitinga728]

they even filmed it with a vintage WWII camera

[@wimweender1306]

😅

[@RCScaleAirplanes]

*_I'm speechless. Hats off._* ❤👍😎

[@firefalcon9368]

THANK YOU..... for no silly music.... them engines are just humming along at their own tune!

[@Schlipperschlopper]

Thats stunning ! Here in Germany nobody has a clue that there are working original Jumo 004 turbines and ME262 Jets operational in the USA. (We only know about the replicas with learjet engines)

[@waschte123]

Naja, wenn man bedent, dass es weltweit nur 3 flugfähige Schwalben gibt, und auch mur eine davon originale Jumos hat

[@joeg5414]

@@waschte123 I'm fascinated by the translation for some reason. Schwalben translates to swallows, which is a type of bird. Is this just German slang for an airplane, like how in the US we call airplanes birds sometimes?

[@waschte123]

@@joeg5414 Nahh, we also call planes "birds". Schwalbe or swallow was the name given to it mainly for propaganda. Just like Tiger, Panther, ...

[@VintageTechFan]

@@joeg5414 "Schwalbe" (Me262 A-1a) was the (intended) interceptor version, "Sturmvogel" (Me262A-2) the (more or less useless) "fast bomber" Hitler heavily insisted on.

[@irminkerck6124]

A 262 with original Jumos! This is more than impressive. What are the modifications on the engines? As far as I know they did not exactly had a very long life span. Very good work, FHCAM

[@ginacalabrese3869]

Modern metallurgy. Better, longer lasting alloys.

[@tjn5150]

Modern metals and metallurgy. Projected lifespan of 200+ hours in stead of 20

[@fredferd965]

This is just a guess, but probably the main shaft, all of the bearings, and most importantly, the compressor blades and especially the turbine, the hot section. I don't think the early German engines had any kind of anti-surge devices, so they may have created somelthing along that line as well. A reciprocating (piston) engine is an air metering engine, and a jet engine is a fuel metering ingine. Anti-surge systems are important. This is all speculation....

[@VintageTechFan]

@@tjn5150 Didn't the first prototypes of the original Jumo004 also work really well, but they had a severe shortage of some metals and therefore couldn't use the good alloys in series production?

[@tjn5150]

@@VintageTechFan Exactly. The higher grade metals were reserved for tanks and ships with aircraft getting the lower grade materials.

[@tjn5150]

I was at the sneak peek of this beauty back in August. They weren't kidding when they said the starter was like a very loud lawnmower. Hope all the tests go well and we get to see this baby fly real soon.

[@Homieman-nz6si]

same, i can see why they didn't want to run the motor indoors

[@gpdude22]

@@Homieman-nz6si The starter motors had to be overhauled/rebuilt as well and they were tested indoors. A "loud lawnmower" is an understatement.

[@EncrypticMethods]

@@gpdude22 sounded like a 250cc two stroke

[@jamisonmaguire4398]

Wow Original engines.!! I never thought we'd ever see that happen.

[@nodnarb1520]

That APU is noisy, but a cool innovation. This is the first time I've ever heard one start with its own unit. Thumbs up!

[@johndonaldson3619]

Think about it - A sound not heard since 1945....the sound of a Jumo 004

[@terhazza]

Well not quite, they were flown by Czechs until 1951. But still...

[@TrevorHeath]

Embrey Riddle Collage in Daytona ground ran a ME262 engine until 1975

[@Felix-fy7ki]

​@@terhazzaInteresting, I didn't know that. Just for tests or airforce equipment? How many of them?

[@terhazza]

@@Felix-fy7ki They were assembled from leftover components and airframes. Local designation was S-92, only small number were made, less than dozen iirc.

[@Felix-fy7ki]

​@@terhazzaThank.you, now I am able to do some research!

[@MadMatt13]

She wants to fly. You can feel it!

[@irvingnerdbaum7256]

I'm glad it's Steve Hinton in the cockpit, and I'm sure he'll be the one to take it on it's first flight. Amazing!

[@steffenriedel2022]

It fascinates me to hear a "Riedel-Starter" at work, because on other videos with the ME 262 at start, they replaced the "Riedel-Starter" by a turbine.

[@ntcrwler]

but it was not pull started the way the original is supposed to be

[@steffenriedel2022]

@@ntcrwler you 're absolutely right. But the "Riedel-Starter" has two choices to start: pull-starter and electric-starter. The pull-starter was only used when the electric-starter didn't work.

[@williamriedel1686]

Just learned about this “pony “ engine today. Which was later used in the tiny Messerschmitt automobile.

[@steffenriedel2022]

@@williamriedel1686 Hello William, it's a pleasure for me to meet somebody with the same surname. May be, we have same ancestors. My father Norbert Riedel build the small two-stroke boxer engine starter for the ME 262 during second world war. After the war, around 1950, he designed an equally small two-cylinder, two-stroke motorcycle engine. This motor was actually supposed to be built into the messerschmitt cabin scooter. Unfortunately, Messerschmitt decided to install an uncomfortable single-cylinder Sachs engine.

[@pirodaniel2733]

Hard to believe that these technical marvels were built somehow in 1943. Great Video!

[@pirodaniel2733]

Very very impressive I have to say...this is leaving aviation history. Thanks for sharing!

[@ignaciostromae3070]

Glad to hear the riedel 2 stroke starting engines

[@fredferd965]

I first saw this plane at Ed Malony's collection out at the Cable Claremont Airport near the Cajon Pass in San Bernardino, California. I was a kid. I never ever thought I'd see this! The plane moved around a lot. Planes of Fame was a companion to Cars of the Stars near Knots Berry Farm, and it was there. Last time I saw it, it was parked out front of the Maloney collection at Chino. It's been around! I'm almost 75 now.

[@Genius_at_Work]

00:00 Didn't the Me 262 Replicas have a different Engine with similar Dimensions to the Jumo 004? It's way to short-lived and unreliable anyway. 01:05 Oh dear, that's a Riedel Starter. It really is a Jumo 004 Engine.

[@Almbxeb7212]

I think this was made to have the exact engine with modern metallurgy and modifications added to it, thus giving a 300 hour life span, way more than the original JUMO lifespan of about 25 hours/9. Given that, we can see a real flying 262 with original engines that way.

[@zanegrey4720]

What a beauty love that 262 .

[@theduck3876]

Cant wait to see the beloved pigeon fly! (a side note i like to call the 262's "pigeons" because when you look at them from the ass end they look like blimmin pigeons) love the 262!

[@ProfessorChops]

That's a sweet pod racer you got there.

[@noahgrove2046]

I really need to go back to this museum. Such am incredible collection. I lost my mind when I saw their original IL-2.

[@Fegelantic]

Museum no longer exists. After Paul died, his C U Next Tuesday of a sister saw green and chased the money vs following Paul's wishes of keeping it going

[@bill0127]

Those 2 strokes are the real heroes lol

[@RFWPHX]

Wow even used the two stroke aux engine to bring the engine to life!

[@andypandywalters]

Superb. Well done Flying Heritage. I was amazed how quiet the engine was once it had started !

[@Brandon_J]

I’m pretty sure that’s an edit. Or a glitch/mishap in the audio recording from how loud it was. These engines are definitely not quiet.

[@randlerobbertson8792]

if this is the one with the jumo rebuilds. that one amazing job fellas. Aching to see her fly.

[@galdramadur1]

Great job guys. Absolutely impressive.

[@flyinhawaiian5848]

What a historical achievement! Nicely done FHCAM!

[@oceanhome2023]

Pure genius to merely pull the D Ring pull rope starter located on the intake center to start a 2 stroke motor that starts the jet !!

[@sandervanderkammen9230]

It's electric start

[@chazchuckyboyz4733]

Amazing piece of history.

[@1s2d3g]

Jumo 004 !

[@EnterpriseXI]

Hope when everything is settled, the new owner starts this project back up

[@Felix-fy7ki]

When the starter engine is louder than the turbine...😅 The Riedel starter was an interesting unit by itself!

[@supermemegenerator267]

1:26 the subtitles are god damn right

[@americarsqueensland1667]

What an impressive plane and restoration!

[@ssranon]

Thanks for the video. Quick tip though... They are "YUU-mo" engines, not "JOO-mo". The "J" is pronounced like an English "Y", such that "Ja" sounds like "Yah" and "Jumo" sounds like "Yumo". Too bad Paul Allen is no longer with us, he would have loved this. RIP.

[@eaglewolffox6275]

when this plane flies, he will be proud.

[@johndavey72]

Superb ! Talk about dedication, this is one heck of an accomplishment. It has to be said that it was known during the war that the original metallurgy for developing these engines had yet to be attained. This now is proven to be a very sound basic engine design. Now do we thank Jumo or Whittle?

[@964cuplove]

Wow, love then startup with the two-stroke engine inside the engines nosecone, and love the sound. So different from the replicas.

[@cfrincon]

Truly remarkable! The worlds first axial flow jet engine! Very distinct sound compared to the GE CJ610's used on the 262 replica.

[@WilhelmKarsten]

What replica?

[@humbertomonteiro6742]

​@@WilhelmKarstenkzbin.info/www/bejne/oXyueIubnJyomqcsi=g5N5jOpERwxTDpwd

[@mattmenefee3889]

I hope to God this flies after all this work by so many people. My limited understanding is that the inheritors don't really give a damn about ww2 aviation. It would be absolutely CRIMINAL to see this and all Mr Allen's other dreams (Stuka) go incomplete.

[@Workerbee-zy5nx]

Excuse me but thats beyond awesome.

[@likeabirdoffical]

The Juno engine starters sound a bit like the 787 starters almost 68 years apart that’s crazy

[@quillmaurer6563]

Fascinating to hear the original sound, I'd wondered what these original engines sounded like. Starter sounds like a chainsaw, main engine like a much larger engine, even like a modern widebody. Starter extremely loud, I get the sense the main engines aren't terribly loud at least at idle. Surely far quieter than the piston engines of the time.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Quill Maurer They made a few taxi and brake checks before work on the project was put on hold during changes to the owner's estate. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIHEq6h8hr94adE

[@nickhayley]

Very lucky to have this piece. Very.

[@964cuplove]

I would love to see a 3-999hrs documentary about getting those engines running and reliable….

[@wilburfinnigan2142]

Probably as close as they will ever get to running a "Jumo 211" as an original engine, however "Modified" to last longer and work better !!! Too bad Paul Allen did not live long enough to see it fly !!! RIP Paul !!!

[@Hyperus]

Altough they committed a typo in the description since its a 004 and not a 211, the 211 is a piston engine , the only other considered engine was the BMW 003, just wondering how that error came up to be

[@wilburfinnigan2142]

@@Hyperus Yeah thought that strange but the jumo is an 004

[@oxcart4172]

@@Hyperus They have a '211 in their Stuka (the only museum with both!)

[@davidholmes9668]

3-engined ME262. Two-stroke Riedel engine starts the left engine like an APU

[@Mr.McWatson]

I got to see the German one fly in Berlin a few years ago. Was pretty cool.

[@jerrytee2688]

Start-up video rule #1: must have arms crossed (as in every generic chopper/hot rod show), but seriously can't wait for this project to fly, cool.

[@majorkursk780]

How very cool is that! Nice work everyone!

[@gundam5281]

Are the Jumo engines the prototype type A or production B model?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+@gundam5281 The B series engines. Aero Turbine in California was their engine contractor with some manufacturing provided by other vendors and I think they sourced several wartime engines for parts.

[@gundam5281]

@@FiveCentsPlease I see, thanks for the clarification.

[@lagoSaltoGrande]

Absolutely amazing... and original start secuence... it si great if you can add the engine instrumet at a corner....

[@fredferd965]

They probably also changed the burner cans. I still wonder if they installed some sort of anti-surge system. Either way, spool up time should be slow, so coming in for landing, you'd better get it right - difficult to spool up quickly for a go round... First generation. What a sound!!!!!

[@dingo5827]

Fantastic to bring back real history!!

[@FiveCentsPlease]

Well done, FHC! You need to correct your description, but I also hope you post a video of your 211 V12 when is ready too.

[@ralfisbird]

The Riedel two stroke, starter engine will be capable of restart the Jumo 004 turbine in the air ?...

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ falfisbird The Riedel also has an electric start that the pilot can operate from the cockpit.

[@ralfisbird]

@@FiveCentsPlease Yes, but im thinking in case of an engine stall in the air, if the riedel can restart the turbine ...

[@Melvorgazh]

Best fighter start-up sound ever 😎

[@galihpambudiarto3008]

this is why i love german technology :)

[@FroggyFrog9000]

What a beauty !!!!!

[@fuffoon]

Beautiful airplane.

[@stephenwarhurst6615]

Nice to keep it's all it historical makings I was waiting for a P-51 to come out of the blue and do strafing attack

[@drbichat5229]

Just fantastic.

[@flightcamm]

Great a real Jumo actually running! No extinguisher - that was brave. I guess the crew have never witnessed an external engine fire?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+flightcamm The engines were rebuilt in California and they ran them on the bench. They intend to make short flights but all work is on hold for the time being.

[@ind347]

Can’t you see that red thing in the picture at 10 O’ Clock by the nose gear and another in the hanger door way? I’m sure these people are consummate professionals.

[@rjburbine]

Great work guys !

[@tsmgguy]

With working two stroke Reidel starters!!!

[@nissmoguy]

360p ? huh

[@mikemusikable]

A beauty :-)

[@aussie807]

Do the engines on this aircraft have a better service life than the 15-20 hours on the originals?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+@aussie807 The estimate from the turbine shop was 300 hours on the overhauled Jumos. Keeping in mind that this aircraft has not test flown yet. The museum has reopened under new owners, and I hear that the Me-262 is being reassembled. The new owners are just getting the museum operational again but no flying just yet.

[@DoktorBayerischeMotorenWerke]

The were rated at the factory for 100 hours at full power... average 200 hours or more depending on the service. in combat with max rate of accent and WEP TBO's averaged a very good 55 hours. Better than Allied piston engines..

Impressive... that motorcycle engine that makes most of the noise ;-)

[@steffenriedel2022]

Sorry, Mr. Hübner, the sound is no motorcycle engine, it is a Riedel-Starter. The starter has no sound damper.

@@steffenriedel2022 Yes, you are right. It's a unique 2-stroke piston APU but the design resembles a motorcycle engine because it hat to fit into a tight space and Riedel made motorcycles after the war.

[@steffenriedel2022]

@ Norbert Riedel, my father made motorcycles and motors before (Ardie S 125 and RBZ 250) and after the war (Imme, Victoria Swing ...) that is right. But the Riedel-Anlasser has nothig to do with the motorconstructions for his motorcycles. The Riedel-Anlasser ist an extremly short-stroke boxer engine with 10 hp and a high number of revoutions. In this time that was unique because nearly all motors for motorcycles were long stroke machines with low number of revoutions. I think that is the reason the sound resembles a "modern" motorcycle.

@@steffenriedel2022 It's amazing to notice how much information can be gleaned just from the audio signature - starter engagement, light-up (combustor rumble) and starter disengagement. As I am developing control systems for jet engines, I found it astonishing that they made it start without any big fuss: on modern jet engines, light-up fuel flow scheduling is a delicate task where you have to walk a narrow path between compressor stall (too much fuel) and insufficient pull-away performance (low fuel).

[@BenSlivka]

Great video! Two suggestions: 1) please record in 4K (Pixel 3/3 XL is great for that); 2) consider putting a floppy object 10-15 feet behind the engine exhaust (perhaps a concrete block with some ropes securely attached to the top) so that viewers can visually gauge the thrust being produced. Danke sehr!

[@rolandboulay4483]

Are there any updates on this project?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Roland Boulay Museum founder Paul Allen passed away from cancer, although he arranged for the museum to remain funded from his substantial estate. His heir made changes to the estate and this affected several museums and other sponsorships. The Me-262 was just starting taxi and brake testing when there was a hard stop on everything at the museum and it closed. A few aircraft were sold. More recently, a new wealthy investor has purchased the entire museum and collection. So wait for news on the on museum and if the collection will remain or move to a new location.

[@ntcrwler]

Interesting! Always wondered what the original Jumo 004's sound like. Especially the start motor. but I thought the original starter motor was pull started and the handle was in the middle of a pod mounted in front of the intake? This looks like it was started a different way?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ ntcrwler The Riedel starters could also be operated from the cockpit with an electric starter or by the ground crew with the pull rope.

[@SKEptic-mg2dd]

Guess there was no concerns about fire hence no extinguishers like you see with piston engines.

[@gpdude22]

All the fire goes out back.

[@jqb747]

Wow that is so cool!

[@sergeya]

Almost 20 years!

[@vrosi1963]

What is going on for the long term with the collection ?

[@steveaustin6467]

stunning

[@Flies2FLL]

Are those Jumo 004's or Pratt & Whitney JT15's? There is a 262 flying around with Cessna Citation motors....

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Flies2LL This is an original Me-262 example with Jumo 004s. This project took about 20 years and there is a lot of new metal in the Jumos, although the museum did not provide specific technical details. This was Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen's museum and work stopped when Allen died from cancer. A few taxi and brake tests were completed but nothing else. The museum has a new owner and there is a possibility that it will reopen in the next 12 months.

[@Flies2FLL]

@@FiveCentsPlease Nice, thanx!

[@jensahlers]

Sehr schöner Jet!

[@lauriwiren6398]

I wonder if anybody is brave enough to fly that thing. Those engines were notorious pilot killers.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+Lauri Wirén The engines have essentially been remanufactured with better materials. This Me-262 was being prepared and tested for flying, but the work is presently on hold.

[@payt01]

Amazing plane.. can't wait to see it fly! btw.. every statement sounds like a question.. is that normal?

[@albertschultz7151]

How many Jumo 004 survive that are in running condition? Congratulations on a fantastic 262!

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Albert Schultz To my knowledge, just these two Jumos that were carefully rebuilt with better materials. The engine contractor spent 10 years rebuilding them. Nobody else has started a surviving one.

[@albertschultz7151]

@@FiveCentsPlease Thanks for the feedback. Makes that 262 a priceless aircraft. Brilliant 👍

[@xvdd1]

Has the two stroke starter been converted to electric start as the original had a manual pull starter mounted in the nose of the engine ?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ xvdd1 The two-stroke Riedel starters originally can be operated with an electric start from the cockpit or with a pull start by the ground crew. Nothing was changed.

[@xvdd1]

@@FiveCentsPlease Thanks for that, I had only had an external walk around of a 262 in a museum many years ago and had only seen the ring pull for the starter but if I had done a cursory search on the net it would have answered my question so that'l teach me.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

@@xvdd1 Here is a restored Riedel. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHi4oolmmdFsnaM kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6W7mHeiiNSdis0

[@EugeneWilliams-m9p]

So original it even has the classic reidel pony engine

[@mauriceclemens3286]

The two stroke stater motors are a first! I wonder where the exhaust outlet is? Surprisingly quiet on startup.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+Maurice Clemens The exhausts for the Reidel engine is short and exits from the inlet cone.

[@publiusking8004]

One with original engines? Epic.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Publius King This is a fully restored WW2 example with improved original engines. After the owner's death work has stopped before they could start flight testing.

[@publiusking8004]

remarkable. thank you

[@strangevideos3048]

Luftwaffe create this masterpiece at the end of WW2.....

[@marcogazaneo]

Nice, when will you do the flight and taxi tests??? :D

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+Marco Gazeneo Taxi testing has already started. The test flights will be closed to the public but may begin this year.

[@DIVeltro]

Any new news??? How close is the first test flight????

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ DIVeltro Long story. Museum founder Paul Allen died from cancer and left money from his estate to fully fund the museum. His heirs changed his estate and the museum eventually closed. Another billionaire collector has purchased the entire museum and it is expected to reopen soon, but no announcements on which aircraft will still fly.

[@bobdown8043]

If the Germans had got all their WunderWaffen up and running we would have been toast. Take a look at this thing. Amazingly advanced for the time.

[@964cuplove]

So let’s all be thankful that my ancestors blew that one….

[@jorgsobota2228]

That's a big, a very big "if". There was no way to get all this different things working and be produced in sufficent numbers. Even if - they wouldn't have had the fuel to run it... So it's just a uncanny speculation...

[@Franky46Boy]

I hope they fitted new turbine blades on these Jumo engines... Because of bad materials the lifetime of these engines was extremely short!

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+Franky46Boy The Jumos were rebuilt with better metal, although it is unclear if there were any additional changes to the fuel metering or combustors. They are flight certified, however all work on the project is on hold for the near future. (The same museum is nearly done with a flyable Stuka, also on hold.) The new Jumos have an estimated TBO of 300 hours.

[@joseseguragomez1613]

Are original Jumo 004 engines? Or are they J85?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Jose Segura Gómez Those are 004s, remade with better materials and flight certified. The project is presently paused at the museum.

[@cptmiller21]

2019 and 360p...

[@steffenriedel2022]

I will try to translate the story of the "Riedel" starter into English and put it online.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+@steffenriedel2022 The museum will be reopening soon under new owners after Paul Allen's death. Part of the mission of the museum was also to gather documentation for all of their exhibits and aircraft regarding history and construction, and I am certain that in the future they would like to speak with you about your father's work to design the Riedel engine. Reach out to them when they are available.

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+@steffenriedel2022 Also, maybe also reach out to the Planes of Fame Museum. That's Steve Hinton in the cockpit (current president of the Planes Of Fame Museum) and he was planning to be the test pilot for the Me-262 for flight testing. Hinton could probably put you in contact with some of the experts.

[@joeg5414]

woah I just saw your name. That's pretty cool family history to have.

[@prillewitz]

And what did they modify on those Jumo engines?

[@FiveCentsPlease]

+ Peter Stegman The Flying Heritage Museum was always known for strict secrecy for their projects. But it was very refreshing to see them give a lecture on the Me-262. They did talk about the Jumo engines but did not have an engine expert on the speaker list to go into details. I think much of the compressor stages, burner cans and hot sections are new. They didn't talk about engine management or fuel. kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3KlnnaOrL2Si6M

[@WilhelmKarsten]

The engines were restored to original specifications... these engines were rated for a 100 hour PFTR and averaged TBOs in the 55 hour range, excellent by WW2 standards for Allied piston engines that provided far less power.

[@LouisLupz]

Wow!! Awesome!!

[@peterthelarge5110]

The shark :)

[@hoedemakerbart]

The original 2 stroke starter to😀

[@louisdresse8650]

Huge !!!