Meditation Induced Psychosis Experience & Recovery

This interview explores the experience of Meditation Induced Psychosis. We hear about what led James to meditation and retreats, his experience of meditation induced psychosis, what helped him recover and what has helped him to process and move forward from this experience.
We also look at what meditation communities and retreat centre's could learn from this experience, the nuance of positive experiences alongside the gradual progression of psychosis, grieving the loss of an important part of life, connecting with the underlying values below the goals in meditation (focus, connection, awe and transcendent experiences) and other supports.
Useful links for meditation adverse effects:
themindfulnesscircle.com/lost...
Adverse effects playlist • Adverse Effects from M...
Cheetah House www.cheetahhouse.org/
Willoughby Britton and Jared Lindahl www.brown.edu/research/labs/b...
David Treleaven, Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness davidtreleaven.com/

[@canonicalgio7837]

I did 25 tabs of acid and 1oz of weed over a COVID isolation where I ramped up my meditation to a high amount over a week and had a 2 month long psychosis which was very similar thing to what you described in this video. I'm glad it's getting some recognition as when I told my doctor I meditated too much they told me I was wrong. The psychologist at the hospital was doing meditation sessions on the ward which I basically took over because I knew more about meditation than him.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Sorry to hear this, I'm sure you know of the organisation Cheetah House, they have lots of resources and have had many meditators experiencing similar experiences to what you describe...

[@lyssasletters3232]

Thank you for raising awareness! This video is validating❤❤

[@jonnysaytherapy]

That's great, I am glad you found it validating

[@lyssasletters3232]

@@jonnysaytherapy have you ever had experience with individuals who have practiced or received energy work? Have you encountered anyone who has experienced trauma or psychosis that is related to energy work (like chi gong, yoga, reiki, etc)? Thanks!

[@jonnysaytherapy]

@@lyssasletters3232 I haven’t worked in therapy with anyone but there is a phenomena called Qigong induced psychosis. I’m sure it’s also possible with other ‘energy healing’ systems. Again it tends to be linked to long and intense practice. When I began my own journey into meditation in the past I was part of a couple of organisations that focused on qigong and I did witness 2 people having psychotic symptoms, 1 had to be sectioned. At least one of them had a historical vulnerability. I think the key again is to know why your practicing (to enhance life and wellbeing), know the limits of what these systems can do and where you need to augment with psychology or medicine, keep the practices balanced and not excessive and work on other ways to improve health and wellbeing alongside them (exercise, sleep, time in nature, social connection, meaningful hobbies etc). I also saw people trying to treat mental health difficulties with energy practices where I think evidence based therapies would have been more helpful…

[@lyssasletters3232]

@@jonnysaytherapy thank you for your response. Can I email you?

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Yes feel free to [e-mail]

[@graceselfe8628]

A good read in understanding phycosis is the book 'going mad'. Spiritual awakenings uf not embodied can lead to phycosis. Thanktoy for sharing your experience.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Thanks for your perspective. I think that embodiment is not necessarily preventative of psychosis in people vulnerable to it, for example there is the phenomena of Qigong induced psychosis (many qigong teaches emphasise embodiment), also embodiment practices are sometimes supportive to people experiencing psychosis but they are not magical cures unfortunately (there are no documented clinical trials where embodiment has reversed psychosis and if there are please direct us to them)...

[@cavallopazzo340]

Great interview and very brave by James to speak about it so openly. Based on what I understand, I feel the issue could have been that his system couldn't handle the depth and extended time of meditation he went through and especially once insomnia kicked in the situation maybe spiraled out of control? Maybe a better approach would be to take it a bit slower and when any insomnia starts to take a break for a few days and restart again? What do you think? In my experience, when big shifts in consciousness happen it can be quite a shock to the nervous system, which might react with anxiety and even dissociation. I believe this can be normal, as to the mind, which is used to a certain perception of ourselves, it can feel like dying as there is suddenly no closely controlled ground to stand on. Afterwards it stabilizes again and one feels more peaceful inside and more connected. Probably it's a matter of doing it gradually I feel.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Hi CSE, thanks for your comment. I think that insomnia can be one of the mechanisms that can trigger adverse effects including psychosis. Sensory deprivation (stillness, eyes closed) is another factor. I think that these phenomena are very complex and Willoughby Britton's work has shown they can occur in different contexts, meditative traditions, different doses of practice and with different triggers. I think one frame would be to see this through the lens of shifts in consciousness and the impact on nervous systems. I think everyone has the right to view their own experience through the lens that works for them (as long as these things aren't causing harm). You could also view this through the lens of intense practices not always being helpful to people, just as not everyone has the body to run an ultramarathon. Some people will benefit from increasing daily movement, others from structured exercise programs and some may be capable of running and competing at an elite level like ultra marathon. But communities shouldn't blame the victim of these intense experiences for practicing 'wrongly', they should support them to find the right type of practice for the individual and be aware of these potential difficulties to try to catch them before they result in something as impactful and potentially dangerous as psychosis...

[@macintoshimann9892]

I got into meditation when I started therapy and even with no reatreats and a total disbelief in spirituality "kundalini energy" was too much for my mind. I didnt want it, didnt ask for it, now im trying to get rid of it. I stopped meditating when I couldnt deal with all the anxiety caused by how different my sober state of consciousness was. And then meditation stafted getting traumatically dark and im wondering why the hell this would ever be recommended for mental wellbeing

[@ElaroLVI]

@@macintoshimann9892 I'm right there with you. Meditation was a part of a "relaxation exercises" class offered at the CEGEP (post-secondary school) I was attending, promising stress management, but I became increasingly dysregulated and less able to manage stress and react gracefully to outside stressors as I did the exercises. I literally did not know what I was getting into, and only seriously engaged it because I trusted that my academic institution wouldn't permit the teaching of harmful practices.

[@macintoshimann9892]

@@ElaroLVI yeah I’ve since realized even my doctor didn’t have a clue what this stuff is. It’s not for stress relief, it’s a spiritual tool. I did end up coming back to meditation and I very much enjoy it now but went through a lot of very weird stuff first. Woulda been fine with a guru but the simple instructions of “try meditation” did not prepare me to have my ego erased until I couldn’t rebuild it the way it was.

[@catcat9582]

Bc it's a dark agenda. It's literally described as a serpent going up the spine. It's a spiritual battle. Jesus saved me from effects begged for help and meditate on the Bible where you don't detach from ur body mind

[@CourtneySDawn]

I feel like Iv been through “spiritual psychosis”/existential ocd the last 2 months and I am completely disassociated, looking in the mirror is triggering. It’s kind of gone into a hyper awareness and confusion of consciousness and I’m wondering if he struggled with this or how you go about getting over it?

[@jonnysaytherapy]

I would definitely try to find a therapist that is familiar with this, existential OCD or dissociation/depersonalisation derealisation disorder. His experience was a transient psychosis that he recovered from, he had periods of dissociation within it but recovered. Existential OCD and psychosis are normally distinct difficulties (although occasionally overlap) so difficult to give general advice without knowing more about your specific situation. That being said, all the ACT skills in my OCD playlist and in the adverse effects playlist are used in ACT for psychosis and for DPDR so alongside seeking treatment I would learn those approaches. Dropping Anchor is a great foundation. Threat monitoring is often something that keeps dissociation high so we need to learn to let go of monitoring and checking compulsions and engage in life and what we valued before this episode...

[@fredharvey2720]

Stop meditating or it may destroy your life. My sister played these games and has been a mental case dependent on resperidol for 30 years. You've been warned.

[@khalelbsoul4434]

Thank you very much for this amazing video, i had a very intense psychotic break one year and a half ago, and it completely damaged my life, I’m still trying to recover but I couldn’t yet, do you have any one on one coaching programs?, i would love to take your advice on how i can recover, Thank you

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Hi Khalel, I'm really sorry to hear what you have been going through, I received your email so I will respond in more detail in the next few days.

[@Mijn3023]

What’re your thoughts on mindfulness? Simply immersing ones senses more deeply in everyday experiences. For instance, describing a walk in nature in intense depth through sight smell sound feeling etc. I would think mindfulness grounds oneself in the present moment, much like animals do, especially after a state of shock in which they violently shake their bodies,.. this differs greatly from traditional forms of meditation where one sits in silence and seeks to “clear the mind” often having “spiritual” connotations attached to it.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

As always it would depend on the individual, what difficulties they are facing and what the goal of their practice is. But speaking broadly, practice in movement with eyes open is generally a gentler approach and more suitable for most people. I have worked with people when even this gentle form of practice can trigger increased depersonalisation difficulties. In that case I find it can be more helpful to use the skills of mindfulness to step back from difficult thoughts and feelings and then for people to train more task focused attention, engaging in meaningful activities and social connection.

[@Mijn3023]

What’re your thoughts on “image streaming” and visualization ?

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Again it depends on the person and context they are in. Compassion Focused Therapy that I am a big fan of uses a lot if visualisation to connect with calm places, compassionate others, compassion to the past and our vulnerable self. Image streaming sounds like a practice of narrating your internal experience (from a quick google) so that would be something that may be very helpful for a lot of people, but may be too self-focused for those vulnerable to meditation related difficulties. In that case an external focus, engaging in tasks and relationships etc would be more helpful.

[@dharmayogaashram979]

Meditation simply means "to concentrate." No problem. However this is often a confused attempt into something "spiritual" and this is where the problems enter. In this mode, meditation is the outcome of a chosen religious life. Without this foundation and recognition, "meditation" becomes a potentially dangerous scam.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

It's true that some people find a religious context can help them move through adverse effects because they have a framework and hopefully a supportive community. However, the research does not support that this protects against experiences of adverse effects including meditation induced psychosis. Dr Willoughby Brittons research at Brown university (Cheetah House and Britton Lab) has found adverse effects experienced in all religious traditions including experiences of meditation induced psychosis. She has multiple contacts a week from people experiencing these phenomena and often these people have not been supported by their religious community and feel incredible shame and isolation. If you look at religious texts from Buddhism (all 3 branches), Hinduism, Christianity, Taoism etc they all have descriptions of meditation induced difficulties including psychosis. It's very shaming when people blame the victim for the way they are practicing, when in reality these adverse experiences show up through many different cultural practices of meditation. But yes I would agree the right religious community can sometimes support people with these difficulties. However, more often with severe experiences like psychosis, an appropriate mental health service is required to help the person remain safe and recover.

[@SHRAD]

Jonny they are saying integrating religion with the practice of meditation is the scam and is problematic.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Thanks SHRAD, I’ve heard the argument both directions ie removing religious framework or holding it are problematic. But the reality is that adverse effects can be seen in secular approaches, religious approaches and mystical approaches and they are a complex thing to untangle and if in doubt work with a compassionate person who understands the territory. Cheetah House is the main organisation doing empathic and supportive person centred work on this…

[@dharmayogaashram979]

@@SHRAD again, medication is simply concentration on anything. But, when the concentration is with a spiritual reference then this is the realm of religion. Those in the non Hindu yoga scam practice these deceptive meditations.

[@thekratommanbigsmoketheawo5783]

Well life can be said to be a spiritual experience. And the present moment is really the central most important meditative centering. Life can only be found in the present as well. My life is meditation.

[@HeyOlive239]

I'm also having a psychosis - don't know if it was induced by meditation or weed consumption

[@jonnysaytherapy]

I’m sorry to hear that Olivia and hope you are being supported by your local psychosis team. Hopefully some of the ideas in this video and in my series on adverse effects from meditation are useful. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Compassion Focused Therapy and CBT for Psychosis are all very useful approaches for working with these adversities…

[@fredharvey2720]

Stop both

[@teachedteach]

Eastern type meditation originated and was meant for monks, renunciants and hermits, period. It is one of the many signs of the ills of modernity that now mental manipulative techniques have gone mainstream in the West. In the East in places where tradition is still strong, very few laymen are encouraged to meditate. In fact monks discourage laymen from going deep into it. In the best case scenario monks would teach some very basic relaxation techniques associated with calmness, but nothing intensive. In more westernized eastern countries they are starting to unfortunately follow the West in offering intensive retreats to common folks. But that is anti traditional and has always been discouraged by most serious contemplative religious traditions. After hearing this video, no wonder why. Serious meditation requires a certain milieu, a setting, away from society and a full time life long commitment which laymen are unable or unwilling to undertake. Another thing. Relaxation techniques are very good and should be taught and encouraged but let's not confuse them with meditation. Relaxation is an altogether different department although there are overlaps with meditation. But the practice and essentially the aim is different. Westerners need to learn to relax but not meditate. Don't confuse the two. Meditation is strictly an intensive practice meant for people who either dropped out from society or have temporarily left society to do these intensive practices under strict spiritual guidance from an advanced practitioner and together with other fully commited meditators. This can and should take years or decades of hardship and asceticism too hard to bear by most ordinary people. Westerners are playing with fire out of naivety and ignorance and falling prey to the mindfulness hugely profitable industry.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Thanks for your thoughts. There are many accounts of people developing psychotic symptoms as monastics, there are even traditional textual accounts of these types of experiences in monastics, even suicide. Many famous monastic teachers have tried to open up the teachings to lay people (Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Mahasi Sayadaw, Ramana Maharshi, U Pandita, Ajahn Cha etc) and have thought this was a good idea across all the different branches of Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta etc. Other people say it's only for monastics. It's an old debate that I am glad to be out of, I just want to support people who have had their lives ripped apart by meditation. It's very easy to blame the practitioners rather than take a compassionate and person centred approach to helping people recover from these experiences, helping organisations to be aware and prevent them, trying to help the people going through these experiences. Many many lay people attend these retreats and have nothing but positive experiences so should they not meditate by your logic? Why are the people who are experiences immense pain being treated so un-compassionately by organisations that have compassion as a central value...

[@teachedteach]

@@jonnysaytherapy Thank you for your reply Jonny. Before getting into the discussion let me tell you what I should have said before which is that I praise your compassionate work to help those suffering from adverse effects caused by misguided meditation techniques. As a non native English speaker I hope to count on your understanding due to my difficulty in engaging in complex exchange of ideas in English. I have merged deeply into Eastern metaphysics and thought ever since 1980, and then I studied comparative religions with a focus on contemplative traditions. I also love teaching such topics in the country where I live. I am aware and therefore agree with your statement regarding the unquestionable fact that even easterners in a protected environment such as monasteries do develop psychotic symptoms although we don't know the frequency of such events. They however are better off than westerners that do practices of the kind on their own. After all, a monastery or ashram or even a christian orthodox monastery in Athos, Greece is a highly controlled environment where we expect spiritual guides or masters to do what they are required to do; provide personalized training and supervision to their disciples so that these events are as minimized as possible. So, yes, you are right, but I am sure you would possibly agree that the probability of such events are fewer and sometimes stopped no sooner the master realizes they are starting to manifest. Quite different is the lonely westener in his apartment struggling on his own with a completely unexpected and traumatizing event such as psychosis or similarly tragic events. It is also helpful to point out that Eastern traditions have undergone a huge transformation under the impact of the surprising interest that westerners started to show in the last 100 years reaching a peak in the mid 60's which coincided with the explosion of affluence and wealth in the West while the East remained poor and backward. The temptation for Eastern gurus and teachers to come to a spiritually ignorant yet thirsty wealthy West eager to consume that kind of product was irresisitable. You seem to be quite young, but bear in mind that in the 60's and 70's they flooded the West as semi gods or even gods in human form themselves and became rich, famous and most were later found involved in sex abuses and other illegal and preposterous behaviours. Yet meditation found a permament home in the West along with Yoga even in spite of those deceptive gurus who caused unbelievable suffering to gullible baby boomers (my generation). You are right to say that among eastern masters and gurus there is disagreement as to whether meditation should be popularized or not. But that is due mostly to opportunism on their part and a breach of their secrecy vows taken upon ordination. And you are also right to say that many folks report benefits after a workshop or retreat. We must also consider that the word meditation is a very large umbrella under which all kinds of mental techniques are used. Some are quite harmless and if done for short periods of time during the day, they will benefit people more often than not. An example is TM which if done twice a day for only 20 minutes or less each time, will rarely cause problems because in fact it is more a relaxation technique than any intensive high pressure type of meditation as in other traditions such as Zen, Vipassana or of the Vajrayana type. Also Hesychasm in Orthodox Christianiy can only be practised in monasteries due to the unbelievable pressure put on the mind by such christian practice. The rewards can be fabulous, no doubt, if lucky, or disastrous if unlucky. There are safe forms of meditation such as the no-meditation meditation approach of Krishnamurti who all his long life opposed any regimented form of technique as totally artificial. He thought that medititation is a state that comes naturally after freeing your mind of unnecessary thoughts if you do serious self-enquiry. No dramatic experience, just a peaceful state of choiceless awareness. But I have met people who did Kundalini practice who have gone through serious problems. So it all depends on the nature of the technique and how intensive it is and where you do it. I myself, after trying so many of them have decided to stick to relaxation practices, loosening body and mind and following Krishnamurti advice and early Taoists in doing meditation without concentration (which is the cause of most problems). Keep up the good work, and sincerely wish you the best.

[@kempoutzzz]

Hey, do you guys still meditate then?

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Yes both have a daily practice, shorter and focused around ACT and compassion skills to enhance wellbeing rather than long intense practice and retreats focused on spiritual attainment

[@karmontrent5202]

How would I get involved with your program

[@jonnysaytherapy]

Hi Karmon, I work with clients 1-2-1 (www.jonnysaytherapy.com). In terms of programs I would recommend looking at Cheetah House www.cheetahhouse.org for the groups and programs they are running.

[@yashjain5249]

Hey jonny how do i contact you ...

[@jonnysaytherapy]

you can email me on [e-mail]

[@doritoonigiri1005]

So youre saying that when bhudda reached enlightenment it couldve all been just an experience of meditation induced psychosis? 😂

[@jonnysaytherapy]

I’m definitely not making any comment on the Buddha and what he may or may not have experienced. But there are examples in ancient texts of people talking about adverse experiences including psychosis like in zen makyo and Tibetan Buddhism nyam. In some modern monasteries these experiences occur at times so it’s likely this has always been a part of meditation communities…

[@littlewoodchopper2659]

People trying psychedelics to hallucinate and meditation induced psychosis. What is the world coming too..too many of us suffer these things and people out here trying to do it on purpose. Just stupid.

[@jonnysaytherapy]

These people are not trying to induce these symptoms, they are an unexpected and highly distressing adverse reaction to meditation that none of the people I have worked with were 'trying' to do, they wanted higher wellbeing, calm, connection etc from their practice, not these symptoms...