Meditation vs Zazen

[@davidrivers2734]

Great to have such a vibrant, free and authentic Sage in the Zen tradition teaching so actively. This was a great talk, instructive and fresh, the sum bonum of the path.

[@Fakery]

When your meditation is too simple for the mind to comprehend

[@HardcoreZen]

Good point!

[@HBCrigs]

Right! I'm asking myself "what am I supposed to do" as in the one talking

[@erkanerken95]

Good topic. Alan Watts says trying to stop thought is like trying to flatten the surface of water with iron. I also like the analogy to “horse taming”, where you need to let the wild horse do its own thing before it will settle down next to you. Tibetan monks also teach to exercise willingly bringing “unpleasant” thoughts to your mind, in order to transform them (actually just to show there is no such thing as good or bad thought, its just our perception).

[@Awfki]

This is exactly like the quasi-Vipassana style I learned from apps and various books and reddit's /r/meditation. Meditation never stuck with me because I had that false idea that you're supposed to quiet/empty your mind. It wasn't until a guy on app said something like "you'll notice your mind has wandered and you're thinking, this happens to everyone and it's fine, just put your attention back on your breath". Read/heard lots of folks saying that _noticing_ that the mind has wandered is the whole point, and combined with sayings like "you are not your thoughts" and eventually the mind does quiet but that's more of a side-effect than a goal. Vipassana at least, seems very similar to Zen, maybe without the one hand clapping and such.

[@keatts23]

I like studying both zen and Pali canon traditions 😊

[@Jack-dt9nu]

I came here to say this too. Andy Puddicombe, the founder of Headspace, was a Tibetan monk and uses the metaphor of thoughts as cars on a road and meditation is simply watching the cars go past.

[@jameswight6259]

Wow! Super useful! Thank you!

[@Tsotha]

I remember you posting an article on your blog, where you described thoughts as basically the same thing as itches on your body coming when you are sitting I found that a very useful analogy. I accordingly started treating negative or harmful thoughts the same way as when I feel an itch somewhere on the body, that I just let go until it disappears instead of scratching it.

[@HardcoreZen]

A dermatologist came to one of my retreats in Germany. In the course of our conversation, he told me how scratching an itch doesn't actually stop the itch. It just spreads the sensation over a larger area of skin and you don't notice it as much.

[@tommcg9544]

Thank you Brad, a timely reminder. When sitting and thoughts bubble up, it’s a challenge to let them be and not criticise myself that thoughts are there and the sit is failing because I’m not calm and serene. What’s the point? Then creeping doubt... Keep on keeping on. Cheers!

[@ceruleandusk]

Saving this. Really cool.

[@m.barron5630]

Wow! What a powerful and direct metaphor! Thank you. 🙏🙇‍♂️

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank Uchiyama Roshi!

[@AlisonEngland2015]

Wonderful! Thank you for reading that out!

[@noiselesspatient]

Superb. Really helpful reminder, thank you 🙏🏻

[@AndrewYouTubehandle]

Very helpful, thanks for sharing:)

[@airbornepizza]

"precisely, only" sitting, haha. Your info about the details of translation is EXTREMELY helpful whenever they come up in your talks.

[@goatsplitter]

Man i really like that bit about using thoughts to control thoughts. I've tried meekly to describe that same concept when talking about different forms of meditation, but that's fantastic! A body scan is a thought containing thought itself.

[@Ikaros23]

A body scan= mindfullness of the sensations in the body Meditation= the meditator beeing aware of the observing part of the mind. That observes the thoughts in the mind. And accepting that this is how the mind is. Don’t be fooled by the many posers who claim meditation is a « calm» experience. It can be calm. But often the experience is to let discomfort, pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety also come to the « surface» of the mind. The art is to « sit still» mentaly in the storm of your own thoughts/emotions and simply let your mind « do it’s thing». This is the « meditation» Shikantaza meditation is to sit still. And let things be « as they are». You don’t have to « scan» anything!. You don’t even have to focus on breathing. Simply sit down, with your back as strait as possible. Have your eyes open so to not « drift away» in a semi sleep state. And that’s it.

[@exerciserelax8719]

This really boosted my excretions! I finally understand "the secret of the ooze."

[@bsjeffrey]

thoughts as secretions of our brain is a phrasing.

[@Redflowers9]

From the benefits I've experienced from practising 'just sitting', I get the impression that I need to have at least some acknowledgment of why I'm doing it, I think the 'why' is very nuanced and hard to express without becoming philosophical and making it about thinking but I can't imagine sitting without some idea that it's 'a good practise for my mind for some reason' or 'everything is a product of the mind and I'm just not feeding it'.

[@dhammaboy1203]

Just sitting is my central practice and it’s very effective if you have cultivated a solid degree of concentration faculty. It’s quite a difficult practise to just sit down and do cold - esp. for beginners. I would recommend mindfulness (counting) of breath and mindful walking then - after a half hour of that start the just sitting practice. If thoughts keep pulling you into distraction - go back to breath of walking. Ease into “just sitting” over time!

[@marknoble2030]

Uchiyama's play analogy is helpful to me, and not only for sitting. Thanks. And I like your demonstration of the contrast between jus' sittin' and JUST SITTING. For me, the difference is shikantaza requires paying a great deal of attention.

[@brookestabler3477]

Well, in TM training, the same is said. Yes, the mantra is present and it helps, um, unfocus the mind I guess (it really does a lot, more than I'll go into here) but it's acknowledged that thoughts will come, look at them and let them go, and then go back to the mantra. Thoughts do also come without necessarily "losing" the mantra, but it kind of falls to the "background" and needs to be pulled back forefront. I started meditation following your stuff in Hard Core Zen et al., did TM training later. In recent years I've not practiced formally much at all, but I spend tons of time "just sitting".

[@locandro1]

3:08 Boom!

[@markbrad123]

Easy silence yes. Holding Silence is good too sometimes for still composure especially in a noisy discussion to stay calm and not get carried away with the discussion.. Vaguely recollect a story of two samurai who stood still for hours waiting for the other to make the first move - its easier to spot change when you are still. Whatever is best given the moments situation.

[@Wulfarwacht]

I sometimes also think that the practices of following the breath and so on are a bit harshly treated amongst Soto followers. It’s not about „forcefully calming the mind“, it’s just a flow of thinking and non-thinking like Kosho Uchiyama, for example, described. If thoughts come up (or if secretions by your brain are happening), you don’t force them away while you concentrate on your breath, you gently guide yourself back to the sensations of your own body and the thoughts will kinda evaporate. For me it doesn’t feel that different from Shikantaza in practice, although it’s very different in theory. A whole other thing is mantra meditation of course.

[@hammockman5589]

I find myself agreeing 100% with you. The "meditation" I've been exposed to does not avoid thought or tries to squash it. The breath is simply a place for attention to rest and to return to when thoughts arise and draws the attention to them. The practice as I understand it is to notice the rise of thought and return once the thought is dissolved. Ultimately,(with practice) even the attention resting on the breathing falls away like training wheels removed from a bike. I'm still trying to see the difference if any. I appreciate the work Brad is doing very much.

[@jakubbanasiak5563]

I know you are a soto follower and I'd like to know your opinion on rinzai school.

[@HardcoreZen]

Some of my best friends are Rinzai!

[@Joseph2us]

This is a good one. Thanks

[@timothykent7285]

This is really good. I've been doing Zazen since I first read Hardcore Zen. Sometimes I get sort of tired with it, and I think maybe I should try something else. So I try mantras or guided meditations, but I always find myself coming back to Zazen. This in many ways I think explains why. Thank you

[@Xnakee75]

Really good message

[@bobmiller2304]

Very good explanation

[@andywatson-j3u]

Great explanation

[@gregwallace552]

I'm a little confused about shikantaza. When I received instructions in zazen at San Francisco Zen Center they didn't mention anything about shikantaza or just sitting. The instructions were to follow the breath. I had already had detailed instructions in anapanasati (mindfulness of breath) from Gil Fronsdale at Spirit Rock so it was nothing new to me. So when I practice zazen I follow my in breaths and out breaths. It's basically a type of shamata as far as I can tell. After doing this for almost thirty years if I "just sit," I'm following my breath to be sure. In fact Katagiri Roshi says the same thing in one of his books.

[@randycunningham7318]

Is "good time all the time" from Dogen?

[@canseeme1982]

Great video Brad! Which page is this paragraph on?

[@HardcoreZen]

Starts on page 158.

[@benjaminpepin2247]

Hi Brad I have been practicing zazen almost daily for the past 2 years now and have the same problem as your correspondent. I know that in vipassana meditation you deconstruct your sense of being a self to transcend it and that seems to be an easy and effective way to go at it but how does that relate to zazen or does it relate at all? I mean is just sitting also a way to deconstruct the sense of self or is it something else entirely?

[@HardcoreZen]

Zazen is for zazen and nothing else. That's probably the hardest part to understand. It's been hard for me to understand.

[@benjaminpepin2247]

@@HardcoreZen but how does that relate to ego transcendance? 🤔

[@HardcoreZen]

@@benjaminpepin2247 Should it?

[@benjaminpepin2247]

@@HardcoreZen isn't it the whole point to become free from limited identity?

[@HardcoreZen]

@@benjaminpepin2247 The whole point is to get rid of thinking in terms of there being a "whole point" to anything.

[@Riddlemewalker]

Timely!

[@ghostcat5303]

I like this. I suppose I would feel a bit silly if I got upset at my heart for beating. But at the same time I don't get involved in it doing so.

[@That_Freedom_Guy]

Try just living, and just sitting is a joy.

[@borsdobhran3557]

Are you saying "Shavelings"? what's a shaveling?

[@HardcoreZen]

I actually do not know. But in some translations of Dogen's writings the word is used.

[@borsdobhran3557]

@@HardcoreZen in what context, that may give me an Idea, but I'm assuming it means somone who shaved their head? maybe,, I dunno...

[@zName1]

I saw it as an English translation from the Pali Canon multiple times. There were some non-buddhists every now and then who used "Shaveling" as an insult against Buddhist monks.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@borsdobhran3557 Could be!

[@HardcoreZen]

@@zName1 Interesting!

[@JackHernandezGentlemanJack]

Thats a great explanation. It's quite a toaist approach, to let the thoughts be. It's wu-wei. Do not force energy against the nature of thought. Thought has its natural flow, its natural force, and we should not go against something's nature by applying our own force. That will only be a waste of energy, because the thought will only revert back to its natural state. Just like if you try to blow a trickle of water form a tap off its target, as soon as you stop blowing it will return to the place it was always meant to flow to and you wasted your breath trying to force it to flow elsewhere.

[@xClunky]

Hey Brad! Could you make a video on the Hindu concepts of Brahman and Atman and how they differ from the Zen view of Buddha-nature? Tathagata garbha seems to sometimes be equated with Brahman but I get a feeling that this wouldn't mesh too well with Zen.

[@HardcoreZen]

I've been thinking about doing something like that for a while.

[@xClunky]

@@HardcoreZen Can't wait to check that out!

[@djindustrialcomplex]

Hell yeah

[@J_Dellarosa]

Hi, Brad. I am a new follower of your work. I enjoy the videos and I am currently listening to the audiobook version of Hardcore Zen. Thank you for being an author who reads his own books. Huzzah! I read this excerpt on your Instagram the other day and I have actually been rolling it over in my mind since. I am curious: how do you reconcile this with something like sitting with 'Mu', where we are ASKED to wrestle with it as in the iron-ball-in-the-throat analogy? Or is it in that wrestling match that we find the answer? It feels as though there is something to the idea of thinking-without-thinking that inflates the balloon until it bursts. Thank you for your time and your contribution to the interwebs!

[@HardcoreZen]

Thanks. What you are describing is called "koan introspection." It's a practice that comes from the Rinzai tradition. It is also practiced in the Sanbo Kyodan lineage of Zen, which considers itself Soto, but is actually more like Rinzai. I have never done that sort of practice. In the style of zazen that I learned, we never try to wrestle with "Mu" or do anything but attend to just sitting zazen itself. So I don't really know what to do. I'd just let "Mu" be there and see what happens.

[@J_Dellarosa]

Hardcore Zen thank you! I will try that. I was working with a teacher several years ago who first gave me the koan. Considering much of what he drew from came from The Gateless Gate and The Blue Cliff Record (both of which I think are rooted in that tradition?) that would make sense. I have also been wondering a lot about ceremony in Zen. I feel extremely comfortable in the waters of Zen practice and philosophy, but the wall I keep coming up against has to do with ritual. I think my western mind has some trouble disassociating ceremony and worship. It’s a tough notion to shake, but I feel like I’m missing something. Then again, as you mentioned in another video, perhaps this is just the way that the path is “challenging” me and my presumptions. Why ceremony if there is no object of “worship” per se? Would you be willing to talk more about this in the future?

[@cyrilgcoombsiii]

there was a typo in your previous video; I’m still waiting for the talk on zen and koalas 😂 seriously thank you for these videos

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh I'm gonna do that one!

[@gunterappoldt3037]

The "just" (zhî/只) is here a functional word (xucí/虚词); the stress lies, i.m.o., on the "mind" (guan/官), it spells: " do mind the !" Personally, I have been understanding this maxime as a short reference to the sino-mahayanic "guan-zhî/观止/see-stop" method (--> Charles Luk), which, again, regarding the Chán/Zen-branch, is backed by the whole "ritual-meditation regime" (--> D.L. Preston), programmatically (--> core agenda) summed up under the motto: "Do not erect literary ! another heritage, beyond the word-teachings ! Do directly point to the human heart! See the nature and become entlightened

[@MarshallApplewhite143]

I used to go pretty deep during sitting/mindfulness meditation, but when I switched to mantra meditation, I never really achieved that deep feeling, and now Im having trouble getting back to that transcendental feeling I had at first while just sitting.

[@Sitting8ull]

Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits.

[@keatts23]

Good original Ohio zen ❤😊

[@dbencic]

Just this

[@xlmoriarty8921]

Is just sitting a superiour way of meditation. What mechanism is behind it that will lead to enlightment besides that Dogen said it. Why should you be a fan of Dogen, why is he so legit. Is shikantasa a efficient way to reach entlightment. How do we know where doing the right thing

[@HardcoreZen]

I don't worry about efficient ways to reach enlightenment.

[@ramirocosta1]

myron vid brah. liked

[@danielremete4214]

Zazen with thoughts or without thoughts is necessarily Good. 🙂

[@wadecleveland9001]

READ MOONLIGHT OF MAHAMUDRA

[@snudgegalbraith3447]

Optimal oozing rates

[@Being_Joe]

I am not my brain.

[@simeondawkins6358]

To me Zazen needs to be refined

[@aurora3655]

I'm tired of you stalking me, invading my privacy, and then mocking me publically. I've threatened you with legal action before, and you reply with this stupid email of "I don't know who you are." I have a right to live my life in peace, without being harassed by you. You have a choice. You can stop. Or I can press charges. I have enough evidence against you at this point.

[@aurora3655]

@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster no. I'm sick of having my privacy invaded, and being mocked by the book of the month guy. If it continues, I will take him to court.

[@aurora3655]

And invading my 65 yr old mother's privacy as well to garner dirt on me. I have told him to stop numerous times.

[@goranmarinic2923]

Try walking. Just walking.

[@ottokarvonschnallenburg2572]

Am I the only one who is absolutely tired of these attention seeking thumbnails?