Melee Showdown: Which Dawntrail Job Should YOU Play?

[@Emilyheartz987]

10:15 the difference is that the gap closer version or raiju: the ranged one, animation locks u in place for half a second or so, whereas the melee version of raiju doesn't. So ideally you'd press the melee one if you are in melee, otherwise you might get clipped by an aoe if you needed to move immediately. Perhaps if they combine it, they could remove the animation lock, and allow you to have both benefits? What I would really want is to allow us to move while in TCJ, or at least allow us to move while within the square we plant down.

[@sharlayanforum]

Yeah I mean animation lock, as a general statement, is trash, so any and all of it should be removed. I think not being to move during TCJ is fine, it's a cool thematic thing that ensures that Ninja has a unique mechanic, but it dropping a "zone" sort of like Leylines and letting us wiggle around in that zone would be a good compromise.

[@SubduedRadical]

To be fair, Raiju's animation lock is SUPER short. Like 0.2 sec or so. It at least feels a ton more snappy and responsive than a lot of other gap closers, though I'm not quite sure WHY.

[@StriderZessei]

You got your wish!

[@talimpalim]

I'd really love to hear your thoughts on Bard (if you’re into that as well), so I’ll share some of mine. (or general state of range phy dps) When I first logged into Shadowbringers and saw "REMOVED" everywhere, I was pretty disappointed. I always loved Bard’s supportive identity-that’s what I wanted to play. But then Dancer took on that role (even though, to be honest, it doesn’t do much either). I recently mentioned that I liked Bard in Stormblood, and someone responded with, "LOL, you mean when they still had the Mana song?" Yes, back when managing mana actually mattered. Now, no one really needs it because mana management isn’t as important. It might seem like a small detail, but I loved being able to help others with a song. I was the Bard who pressed Palisade, and it felt amazing. But now? I’m not sure. I still played Bard in Shadowbringers because I loved it, but it felt like I was playing a watered-down version of the class. Now, ranged DPS are at the bottom of the charts, which, for me, is totally fine! We can move freely, we have great uptime, but... we don’t bring much else to the table in terms of support, which was the class's original identity. So what are we now? If we’re going to be at the bottom of the damage rankings, we should at least have something valuable to offer to the team so that people think, "Great, we have a Bard!" At the moment, the best feeling as a ranged DPS is pressing Silence. (also not really important, i wish it was) I don’t know… I’m just sad or maybe I just want some clear direction for the class.

[@sharlayanforum]

I definitely have some thoughts on the other roles... a video will come before too long going over some of them!

[@Goodman_Grey]

Good breakdown, I pretty much agree with all your points. With job design as it stands they're going to have to do something big in 8.0 to keep things fresh and they have somewhat alluded to that already. I'm personally hoping for talent tree kind of set up as I think it would be a good way to not only customize your WoL further by bringing back old abilites and introducing new ones. It would allow people to pick how they want to play. I think this could also be helpful in perhaps moving around when you get stuff like AoE (I'm looking at you DRG). It's a personal pipe dream of mine so I won't get my hopes up though.

[@sharlayanforum]

@Goodman_Grey stay tuned for a video maybe going over some of those ideas... 😉

[@LS-cp2to]

Honestly, with VPR I wish they'd let Vicewinder/Vicepit access both Single Target and AoE variants of the follow-ups as you want.

[@sharlayanforum]

Yeah totally agreed. I also wish that the basic combo progressed through the steps in parallel so that I could transition from AoE to Single Target without wasting GCDs in dungeon pulls if the last AoE target dies mid-combo.

[@owenjurk3]

Ninja and arguably more jobs should have more things added outside of buff windows next expac, new combo strings or things to prep, it would feel more rewarding over the 2 minute mashing everything out

[@sharlayanforum]

Agreed. Spreading some stuff out would make jobs feel more complete during non-burst windows and help jobs like Ninja feel slightly less "omfg hit everything right now" during their 2 minute

[@ramsdale4]

Greta content. Subbed

[@sharlayanforum]

Thanks for checking it out!

[@Taldorin]

AOE being level 40 is a huge error on their part but want my big take? Once you have an ability unlocked you should always have that ability even when your synced down in level/damage. Lot of people would have a lot more practice in how to play their class optimally if they weren't constantly playing the same class with different rotations based on whatever daily they randomly got. Edit: Love your macro for swapping classes btw! Any chance you can share how you set that up?

[@sharlayanforum]

Yeah I really wish that level sync just crushed your stats or even lowered potencies on a slider as opposed to straight up removing abilities. And sure! It might be weird to show it here, but it basically works like this: Part 1 is the "Group" Macro where the Jobs live. Here's an example of my "Physical DPS" Group macro: /hotbar display 5 {on/off} /hotbar display 4 off /hotbar display 6 off /hotbar display 7 off /hotbar display 8 off /hotbar display 9 off /wait 20 /hotbar display 5 off Obviously you'd need to adjust this for whatever bars you have free, but the idea is that pressing it opens the menu, and if I don't make a selection, after 20 seconds, it automatically closes itself. For the individual jobs they all look like this: /micon "Soul of the Dragoon" item /gs change 4 /hotbar display 5 off Obviously change the gearset number, job stone, and hotbar number to match your setup.

[@Taldorin]

@@sharlayanforum Thank you so much man Going to apply this right away!

[@loyalkhayal5842]

Mnk has definitely been streamlined. I personally miss having to think a bit more while playing it, that's why I enjoyed it. Stormblood Mnk is my personal favorite. I agree with them needing to work on the aoe ws. They can add stronger aoe ws/animations with the fury system. Make WR flexible like FR (opening stance after using it). And they should make it so you can use Enlightenment with one Chakra or 5. 1 charge, being 120 potency and 5 being the 200 potency. I digress, I can keep going on😅 Great video btw 🤙🏿

[@sharlayanforum]

Totally! I think Monk is in an interesting spot because the people who really loved the previous version will probably like the new one less, but anyone who wasn't big on MNK probably loves the new one. There's some stuff they can do but I'm concerned a lot of stuff in 8.0 and beyond is just gonna be upgrades. Thanks for the kind words!

[@loyalkhayal5842]

@sharlayanforum Yeah, I agree. Every job is at that point. The main reason why I wish they kept the job quest to expand on lore imo. And you're welcome!

[@ecMonify]

funny, i find monk less fun these days because i HAVE to think about which combos to do, and keep track of which ones i've done... :D it looks awesome though, but i prefered it when it was just braindead :D

[@Charlie-lx9mg]

Monk needed it. Helps retain players in the end

[@sharlayanforum]

@Charlie-lx9mg I think this is the thing that people tend to overlook. When considering job design changes, you have to figure that the devs want each job to have its niche audience, but be approachable for EVERY player in their game. It's a tough nut to crack, and they don't hit the mark I'd even say most of the time, but Monk is as close as its ever been to being there for me this go-round.

[@talatzu1438]

Das burst System muss überarbeitet werden weck vom 2 min window und zu einem auflade System Den ninja muss man optimiren zum beispuel könnte man maisui einen teil von suiton und huton machen Mönch könnte man die blitzkünste mehr zu einem passiven teil der kombo machen . 2 sind 2 mediations künste um den fluss der angriffe zu verbessern und man beser zwischen einzel Angriff und flächen angriff unterscheiden kann

[@sharlayanforum]

Hallo! Da ich einen Übersetzer verwende, entschuldige ich mich, wenn die Wörter nicht korrekt sind. Es wäre interessant, Meisui zu einem passiven Effekt zu machen und das Aufblähen von Knöpfen zu verhindern. Diese Idee gefällt mir! Wir brauchen definitiv etwas, um das 2-Minuten-Fenster zu verlassen, zumindest bei einigen Aufträgen. Mir macht das System nichts aus, aber ich würde es vorziehen, wenn es nicht bei jedem Job durchgesetzt würde. Monk macht jetzt Spaß, aber ich stimme zu, dass die Dinge vereinfacht oder kombiniert werden könnten, um den Ablauf etwas reibungsloser zu gestalten und Flächen- und Einzelzielangriffe zu unterscheiden. Danke für deinen Kommentar!

[@NotRealAkira]

I mean from what i heard 8.0 is going to be the year of massive reworks, so not knowing what they'll add after is probably a huge reason for that

[@sharlayanforum]

Absolutely. I have to imagine they all looked at eachother and went "So uh... what now?" And realized that they've sort of reached a logical conclusion for like 90% of the jobs at this point. I'm not sure exactly what they'll do in 8.0, but if they want to advance things past this point, it's going to have to be pretty radical change.

[@tyhjyys]

this is kind of beside the point, but if they do massive reworks in 8.0 i hope they also finally try to get rid of the level sync jank. a large chunk of the content is gonna clip your jobs wings and that just kinda takes the fantasy away for me. i should actually feel like im getting stronger, not constantly dumbing my job down for content that people steamroll anyway.

[@sharlayanforum]

@tyhjyys Nah I agree. Level sync, as it currently stands, kinda sucks. I wish that it functioned more like the gear does, where when we sync down we don't lose access to all of our buttons, but their effectiveness was reduced to ensure we aren't just like absolutely exploding everything. I have to assume this doesn't work this way because of some spaghetti code that refuses to let the devs place potencies on a sliding, scalable format, since we have to get traits that change them to make it work. I guess you could potentially design a level specific debuff that applies and reduces all damage dealt by an appropriate amount when a player enters a synced instance to solve this issue though, which would still allow your overall fantasy and rotation to stay exactly the same no matter what level you are and just adjust the damage dealt.

[@TheKarishi]

I'd like if they gave little buffs that made Ninja's button priorities more consistent during leveling: If they buffed Kassatsu so that it made Hyoton deal equal potency to Raiton, you wouldn't have to change which ninjutsu followed Kassatsu for its first 25 levels. It'd always be "Kassatsu leads to Hyoton." Likewise, if they gave Trick Attack even a 30% AoE, the Huton-Trick combo would be superior to Katon on most AoE pulls (I think the crossover point would be 5 units?), making the process of "use Trick every time you can" much cleaner.

[@sharlayanforum]

Absolutely. I muscle memory Hyosho when I sync down all the time forgetting that im just gonna cast Hyoton and hit a wet noodle instead. Feels so bad

[@ecMonify]

hmm i feel like your complaints about armor crush is a bit strange. how is the new armor crush that different from the old one? you said something like "i have daggers so i press green button (aeolian edge); i don't have daggers so i press red button (armor crush)". isn't that basically the exact same as when we had the huton meter? with the huton meter you could just say "i have meter so i press green button: i don't have meter so i press red button", no? :P i feel like it's virtually the exact same thing, except now we don't have to worry about the huton meter running out :P so yeah, i feel like it's almost the exact same thing, just a tiny bit better now, since the huton meter is just not there to worry about - but the buttons still do basically the same thing. also, you say that the daggers feel a bit "tacked on" - i mean, couldn't the same thing be said about the huton meter? i certainly felt that the huton meter felt more tacked on than the new dagger-system, and more tedious to keep track of :P but yeah, they're basically the exact same thing, so i just find it funny that you think one system feels "tacked on" while the other, extremely similar system doesn't feel tacked on :D i dunno, just felt like a bit of a hollow criticism is all, when you really think about it :D

[@sharlayanforum]

I don't recall saying that Huton was a vastly more interesting system in the video. Yes, Huton was also not very interesting because it suffers from the same issue that Deaths Design does. Hitting that button was just a requirement, a box to be checked every 30/60 seconds that meant you were suboptimal if the box wasn't checked. This is bad design, across the board, on any job that has a system like it. There are obvious exceptions, like pressing Buffs during ideal times as these aren't necessarily instrumental to your personal performance in the same way that keeping a personal buff active is. Criticism of one system does not equal endorsement for its previous version. Thanks for the comment!

[@catboygaming7799]

What hairstyle is the ninja using? Sorry, I'm a bit new and it looks really cool!

[@sharlayanforum]

No need to be sorry! The hairstyle I'm using right now is Modern Aesthetics - Ponytails. You can grab it from the Gold Saucer!

[@catboygaming7799]

@@sharlayanforum oh cool thank you!!

[@brent5709]

Also i just finshed the dragoon section, i have expressed my frustration to my drg main friend that why is lance charge a button. Just add the damage % to geirsksgul, im fine with power stance still being a thing that pretty much locks a drgs full potential behind 2 gcds, but if they did it to drk with delirum why not with drg?

[@sharlayanforum]

Lance charge is turbo cringe

[@brent5709]

I used to be a nin main for 3 years and cleared current content, when i saw pct having the same "preparing" kind of gamplay ninja has with using suiton i swapped and i never looked back im loving it

[@brent5709]

Also! I hate the fact that dokumori is single target only is mind blowing, using that in a big pull to nuke down one ad and it dies after only having dokumori up for 4 seconds is horrible. When jobs like drg can just press battle lit and EVERYONE gets the full buff for the entire duration

[@sharlayanforum]

There's definitely some similarities! I'm glad you found a job that feels right!

[@Blue_death679]

I wanna play melee and I really like jobs that give out party dmg boost but I can’t decide on either to play monk, reaper, or dragoon?

[@sharlayanforum]

They're all great! I'd say Reaper is the most simple / easiest to play. Monk and Dragoon both have a lot more going on in their kits and are a bit more difficult.

[@Blue_death679]

@@sharlayanforum thank you I will have to give reaper a go at it

[@ecMonify]

i guess it boils down to which one you think looks the coolest, start with that one :D

[@h4rdtr]

Drag and rpr share armor too

[@dadkwashere]

Dragoons are chads

[@machinshin2925]

27:55 This just isn't true, most dps (melee especially) don't get their aoe until mid 20s or 30s. Not saying I don't think they should be earlier (especially for healers that don't get them until 45/46), but the only jobs with aoe by 15 are tanks.

[@sharlayanforum]

Yeah, ya know, I looked at it after reading your comment, and you're 100% right. A couple of casters and all of the Phys Ranged have it by 15 or 18, but everyone else is in the 20s or 30s. So it's even worse than I said in the video. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a negative gotcha or not, but either way, it's absolutely terrible and unacceptable that it's a problem at all. literally every single job in the game should have an AoE option by or at 15.

[@machinshin2925]

It's not so much a gotcha as it is just that hearing "almost every other job has it" was a bit jarring (especially as an ex-healer main that doesn't get aoe until even later than DRG). I do agree, every job should get at least some aoe by 15, but with PCT and VPR getting theirs at 25, it seems that there is some reason they are choosing not to do it (maybe tanks just can't hold agro at that level, the devs don't like the job fantasy, or they just don't want to), so I wouldn't hold out too much hope on that changing without a massive overhaul coming first.

[@sharlayanforum]

Totally understandable. To be frank, I honestly thought more jobs than just P.ranged and some Casters got it at 15 or 18. I guess I could potentially see the argument that everyone spammed AoE in level 15-30 dungeons might make it harder for new tanks to keep aggro, but god it feels so terrible for anyone who isn't new. Thanks for checking out the video!

[@JRZTT]

I play all melee till 91 with ninja reach 100. I play it because I like the lore, image, skill, but really hate playing it. As someone with well a bit more than avg ping, with some lag spike, playing Ninja is so punishing. I remember when I 24 men and my mudra not register or too late so I whether got Shuriken or rabbit. There are room for mistake for Dnc but not Nin. And got the button bloat, out of all melee, Ninja took a chunk of my hotbar. I wish there reduce it down a bit and make it less punish for high ping players. Like make melee a single button like Viper. And that damn TCJ lost when move, I don't remember how many time I waste TCJ because I accidentally press movement key. I wish they make it like Lay line so if you still in the area, you don't lost buff. Speak of Vpr, it currently my fav class, easy to play good damage, a few button to press no buff to track since you gain buff naturally and it show exactly which button to press. If I main Melee, I would pick this. Drg, still my most hatred class. It feel so slow and the animation lock. And because of long rotation sometime enemy just change the direction their face suddenly at the only ws that require positioning, so you miss positional very often without that role skill. Mnk, I like it, the 2nd fav after Vpr, flow very naturally, can support pt with healing, dmg buff. My only weakness is I love to forgot not to spam Opo when I want another mark in odd window. I make this mistake very often so I didn't get dragon kick in brotherhood buff windows :P Smr 3rd fav not bad, preferred mnk because at least it can support pt, and no cast bar melee.

[@HotWreckSauce]

you don’t need to stand still during tcj

[@sharlayanforum]

That change was made after this video was released

[@dadkwashere]

Mirage dive could be like vipers uncoiled fury. But yes absolute useless ability. Im also personally not a fan of 3y starcross

[@sharlayanforum]

Turning it into an enhanced Ranged attack could be cool for sure!

[@DrZlow]

Ninja has to work too hard? What are you talking about? Melees are supposed to be the most technical and layered jobs. Ninja is just where it needs to be depth-wise. Melees have to be kinda hard to play.

[@sharlayanforum]

You left the important part out of the statement. Ninja has to work too hard *for the amount of damage it deals right now.* Compared to the other melee jobs, Ninja has always had a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling. This isn't the issue. The issue is that the higher skill ceiling is rewarded with damage that doesn't compare to jobs that are much easier to play and don't require nearly as much thought or optimization as Ninja. It just needs to do a tiny bit more damage to make that extra work worth it, imho. I'd much rather just play Viper or Samurai or Dragoon than Ninja and do ~basically~ the same damage and use 30% less of my brain

[@DrZlow]

@sharlayanforum yeah you are right, my bad. I guess anything that even remotely has a notion of simplifying jobs has me triggered. I absolutely hate vipers and samurais because I feel like they don't deserve the damage they deal.

[@sharlayanforum]

I dunno about all that, each job has its own "difficulty" that it works with, and i don't know that any of the jobs are so easy as to say they don't deserve the damage, but, I definitely believe that balance has to be considered when looking at the tools available and how difficult it is to execute the jobs at a high level. Samurai and Viper should do more personal damage than Ninja, always, at every skill level (assuming equally skilled players as comparisons) because they have zero utility. Ninja should do less personal dps because it has group utility. Balance is tough, and the devs have to consider a huge number of factors when designing it. This is why homogenization happens, not because they have it out for the players, but because creating 21 jobs with ultra unique kits and tools and then balancing them is a literal impossibility.

[@DrZlow]

@@sharlayanforum well that may be the case with samurais. You could argue the job has some depth to it when it comes to optimization.especially in ultimates. But definitely, moooooost definitely not viper. Viper is by far the most dumb and free melee they have ever released ever! It is a pure disgrace to a melee role. All of it's damage is completely undeserved. Uptime is too free with coils. Nothing to pay attention to and keep uptime of. You just press what glows and win. Red is rear. Green is flank. That is the whole thing. Such bullshit. I am this close to just start locking out Vipers from PFs I create. I mean we already are doing that in ultimate pf's. They are a huge problem.

[@sharlayanforum]

@DrZlow You do you, my friend.

[@IaconDawnshire]

As a SAM ill always miss Kaiten

[@sharlayanforum]

I miss it, for sure. I just don't think it's removal was a cataclysmic event that changed me on a molecular level, which you'd think it was listening to some people

[@IaconDawnshire]

@@sharlayanforum But slamming Shinten as a kenki dump gets boring

[@sharlayanforum]

@@IaconDawnshire Oh for sure. Like I said in the video, the thing I miss the most about Kaiten is it's ability to tie together other parts of the kit to make the through line one cohesive rotation. I desperately hope we get something in 8.0 that gives Kenki a lot more meaning that just the oGCD MP gauge.

[@qtscorpkid]

Nin should have Sansukumi-ken.

[@sharlayanforum]

Upgraded Mudras incoming

[@NightpireVideos]

My melees are MNK and DRG and I agree 100% with you. New MNK plays great, I don't miss timers.

[@hockey1973]

The "problem" with Viper is, to me it's so insanely fun I don't really don't want to play anything else. It cured my alt-aholicism and pays my taxes. . . . On a serious note I feel the job is very well DESIGNED and I personally think they will apply the same design strategy to 8.0. Not in the sense that every job will become a viper clone but rather attention will be paid to the "flow" of the job.

[@sharlayanforum]

Con: job too good :( No I agree. I think that the job design team really hit their stride in EW and they continued it in DT. All four of the new jobs are ROCK solid and are among the best designed jobs in the game, for sure. Im hoping that they take the time to bring other jobs up to the design language of these jobs in 8.0, even if it means some pretty radical changes and removals/additions.

[@coolrocksounds]

I would be cool if they removed Ten-Chi-Jin and Armor Crush.

[@sharlayanforum]

TCJ is a pretty iconic skill, so it would be a shame to see it completely removed. It probably needs some changes though, or just something to make it slightly less punishing. Armor crush, though... good riddance.