Bridgerton and the Problem of Pastel Progressivism

[@Princess_Weekes]

Timecodes: 00:24 : Introduction 03:31 : The Book 07:32 : The Show 17:12 : Romance 20:49 : Consent & That Scene 29:22 : To skip past explicit discussion of that scene 33:19 : Black Royals 38:39: Conclusion

[@tedcharleceus9753]

Love the video but are you gonna make a video about Outlander I literally started the show because of a comment you made about it in another video

[@jameshayes-barber9340]

Wait! Alice Kingston isn't white? I thought they introduced the whole genetic engineering backstory to explain how to white people had a biological black kid. Well at least Dr Who isn't as inappropriate as I thought

[@jameshayes-barber9340]

@Hannibal Vigour What is your issue with her? I ask in good faith.

[@florastewart7957]

Most white women go for darker skin men. Unless they are part black.

[@myragroenewegen5426]

Re rape scene: Surely the real problem here is that race can't be discounted in the film. Did the writers forget that a character was black? Or that this historical baggage of white women and black men is a massive thing? Or . . . What??? As the plot's explained here, the book sex scene casts Daphne as a wronged person wronging, but does not create any false eye-for-an-eye moral equivalency, only understanding of her mental process in an abusive mindset. Fair enough -- interesting territory, as we could easily get another man-on-woman rape scene, and this, at least, explores less conventionally covered, more nuanced territory and seems not to be there purely for shock-value. Maybe it's even worse because men who have been raped deserve better representation in film and this trauma should be followed up on and not just this thing that is over in an episode.

[@sophie7780]

the idea that a king marrying a black woman would erase racism is so horribly out of touch. we've seen how a biracial woman has been treated after marrying into the british royal family, and racism is unfortunately still alive and well

[@ilincabogza]

Also the fact that the real life counterpart of the king was involved in slave trade is.....yeah.

[@zoe._.1850]

Exactly!!

[@lydhaile]

literally, i would have preferred if they didn't mention race at all because that didn't even make sense like wtf. you can't just mention race for 2 seconds because you feel obligated to and then not mention it ever again... if you're gonna talk about it then do it correctly and fully

[@Tan87ful]

@@lydhaile agreed

[@outherewildinb2874]

And the concept of it is like... still super dehumanising? That all PoC need to do to avoid oppression is be desirable to white people, which again is false, but actively ignores the fact our humanity is inherent and should always be respected. Not surprising when the dialogue acts as if it was a mutual schism, not one artificially created (and stoked) by one side in particular.

[@MadameDesu]

I was rolling with the punches on Bridgerton but the added dialogue with Simon and Lady Danbury about the royal marriage completely wrecked it. Oh word, the writers think that would have solved racism? Completely ridiculous.

[@testosteronic]

Yeah you can literally look at how well received Megan Markle was and get an idea of how that would've gone down 200 years ago

[@lydhaile]

literally, doesn't even make any sense. i would have preferred if they didn't mention race at all

[@HerReelReview]

A completely agree that they should have left that out

[@scarlet8078]

They should've just totally omitted the issue. Most of us would prefer to see this as a fantasy. I'm tired of having to see black characters "struggle" in every show now. At least in the 90s/ 2000s we had shows where the characters were just living their lives, thriving as families, singles, etc.

[@AceOfSpades066]

That's where my head turned too. It was out of the blue and so surface level and never talked about again.

[@chantellwarren3581]

Personally, I don’t want to see myself among Regency England. The scars of colonial England are still present in my country of Jamaica, today. Colourism, class inequalities and the dependency on inadequate British system still impact the lives of many former colonial Africa and Caribbean countries. The idea that the regency period was the highest form of civilization at that time is the white version of history. I want to see historical dramas of pre-colonial or even colonial Africa and the struggles of those times. I am tired of the idea that I need to see myself in the system which oppressed my ancestors. Also, the idea that the love of one white man could fix the racism is insulting but it also raises the question to what about colonialism. What about all the English, French, Spanish, Dutch colonies that are being robbed of their resources and culture? What the continuation of robbing Africa of their gold and other valuable resources? And don’t say that Bridgeton is fantasy and thus we must not over analyze it. It wanted to provide social commentary and thus it is subjected to criticism.

[@kimberleywilliams7802]

if you look at all if not most of the big companies in Jamaica and the positions of power, all you see are white or racially ambiguous men leaning towards looking white.

[@SayMyNameSeries]

Well said. To me the whole show was a joke. I am black British of Carribbean parentage and as much as I was happy to see the actors of colour shine. The show made no sense. However in the end I just subscribed to the popular view of my black friends who were just so desparate to be included in a fake narrative lost themselves in the ridiculous fantasy.

[@lisasimpson8895]

best comment on all the comments section.

[@bunmi4876]

Royal family propaganda is second to none. People should immediately think of murder and domination when they think of the royal family not whatever this is

[@chantellwarren3581]

@@sagittarius1112able As the video said, and I will iterate, there is so evidence to suggest that Queen Charlotte was black quite the opposite. Also Micheal Manley having a black wife doesn’t change the fact that only Two Jamaica prime ministers since its independence has been darkskin. Their are multiple darkskin and actual black people who have been exceptional in history. Tell us their stories and not only when you want to fit the slavery plot line.

[@wildhearses]

I'm glad you covered that "men can be r*ped" and also deserve consent... I was *just* talking to one of my guy friends about how not thinking men were "allowed" to say no messed up his view of consent. I'm not trying to "what about the men" to sexual assault, but it's hard to teach guys what consent is when they're made to think they're inadequate if they aren't *always* sexually aggressive.

[@jennali9800]

Valid criticism of the "what about the men" attitude arises from the fact that certain antifeminists use it to deflect attention away from women's issues, often without sincerely caring about men; it's used as an excuse to be misogynistic, and that's bad. It isn't saying that it's bad to care about the forms of harm and discrimination that men experience. I think a lot of well-meaning people misunderstand this. The problem with replying to a MeToo post by complaining "What about men being assaulted?" isn't that it's wrong to care about male victims of sexual harassment and assault, or that it isn't a problem that male victims are often underrepresented and not taken seriously. The problem is that it's detracting from an important movement by shifting attention away from women, without actually helping anyone. Teaching men that their consent matters isn't _just_ important because it means they would take women's consent more seriously too, though that's also a good thing. It's also important because it is bad for men's consent to be violated, period. They're people too.

[@wildhearses]

I think a better way for me to have phrased this is consent is not a gendered issue and everyone has a right to it. I think all genders are think through a lens of misogyny to have unrealistic expectations and project things onto their partners. Men not feeling like speaking up about how they feel and how to talk to their partner about "not feeling sexy" dosen't exactly lend itself to them being able to put themselves in their partners head.

[@wildhearses]

@Hannibal Vigour Not sure who you think is a lesbian in this thread but I'm a person who has sex with men sooooooooooo also you just hate lesbians? I don't think this channel likes that shit. and like, you CONDEMN them? to what HeLllL??? For real bro?

[@wildhearses]

@Hannibal Vigour Nevermind, you have to be a troll

[@wildhearses]

@Hannibal Vigour again, deciding consent is for everyone is not a form of mate guarding. It kind of seems like you're just antifeminist, and feminism (when practiced correctly) helps men too. I don't know why you assume "lesbians" are trying to steal your woman, it kind of sounds to me like you're not a great partner and someone might prefer a feminist lesbian over you. Basically everyone I've talked to would agree that consent is important and this angle is one of the most messed up ways to say you don't agree with consent. Also I don't know how you think lesbians are guarding you from strait women?

[@amelieviljoen6766]

Bridgerton is a prime example of a show trying to have its cake and eat it too. Just having it be set in a vaguely Regency but ultimately fantastic era setting would have been fine since it's only loosely historical to begin with (hello feminism) but trying to shoe-horn a 'realistic' element just prompts 3891732438 questions about How and What is even going on

[@FreyaEinde]

They would've avoided so much trouble if they did it. But they just couldn't stay in their lane.

[@Monkeyninjaghost]

Definitely, though to be fair, the realism of much supposedly historically accurate period dramas is debatable. Downton Abbey is to me basically propaganda for the aristocracy and by extension the British class society.

[@amelieviljoen6766]

@@Monkeyninjaghost Oh, god, I can't stand DA's messaging. It literally falls over itself showing just how much better life was for The Poor when the aristocracy was still around.

[@sms4077]

@@amelieviljoen6766 i never got that message. i think we're meant to root for lady mary specifically sure. but the reality is that way of life is failing during the period of the show and 100 years later has failed. in the fictional future, the crawleys (ie lady mary) might prosper, but we know she won't be bringing the whole of the aristocracy up with her. i see some of the characters who aren't able to cope with the new way of things as sad without actually feeling sorry for them (because they aren't shown to have many redeeming qualities and/or neither does the way of life that they long for). but neither side is all good or all bad and their story can be entertaining without being aspirational or nostalgic even.

[@sms4077]

to be fair, a "historically accurate" regency would also be confusing to the modern viewer.

[@cincocats320]

At the time the book came out, the fact that it showed a woman having sexual agency without first having been raped repeatedly was felt to be pretty revolutionary. "Romance" novels until the late 90s were the most gaslighting, effed up narratives. Quinn addressing the legal imbalance in power between husband and wife felt fresh. But I'm glad that just in 20 years we are able to see her actions as a supreme violation of his agency and consent. I wish the show would have left out the rape. There could have been really good discussion around her lack of knowledge and what that meant for her ability to give consent, the legal imbalances between husband and wife, him dealing with his trauma etc, with them then moving to reconcile. Instead we get THAT which was ickier in a visual medium than on the page. And yeah...between that and Marina's story there was a whole lot of sexual exploitation of POC going on which feels like the opposite of what the showrunners advertised as their intent. Really tone deaf decision making.

[@jasonlang9074]

I think it should’ve been kept in. I think it’s an important conversation to have and shouldn’t be shied away from.

[@SarifaXionic]

Yeah it should have been kept in but written better and they should have had a consultant

[@virgiliacoriolanus5093]

Honestly, I think they kept it in for people to talk about it. There are many ways that they could have addressed Simon lying to Daphne (with Daphne confronting him about it / him pulling out), and then her realizing that he is lying to her again. That would have given you the same effect as the (less rapey than the book) scene. I feel that it was a production decision, as the actors talked around it, and (at least to me) seemed to think that it was fucked up, but couldn't say that/criticize it. There were a lot of really good conversations they started - starting with portraying Daphne as not only a heroine who WANTS to get married and have a good marriage, but also her lack of knowledge and naivete. They then go further and portray her as someone who takes her own agency back e.g. getting angry at her brother for claiming that Simon seduced her, etc. But then they also decided to keep the stealthing scene in. I would also argue that they basically smoothed past the emotional arcs by not having Simon tell Daphne WHY he didn't want children (instead of her finding out from the housekeeper basically). They wrote it essentially as the book did...which is dated...but they could have done so much better. And I think they know that, thus it had to be deliberate. It really pissed me off that they did not have her apologize. I think that it is a totally valid storyline - IF done properly. She had a husband that could have children but was choosing not to. She was brought up to believe her entire worth (her college, so to speak) was getting married, having an heir. She did that - she went further. And married a DUKE. And then finds out (eventually) that he lied and didn't want children. Maybe she thinks he's nervous about it, isn't used to having a family - but she knows better AND she's angry and that's how she justified it. Fine. But real conversations need to be had. Romance novels still sometimes like to force drama by not having real conversations, but I'd hope we are past this. (Erotica still does it and it's fucking annoying then too). Personally, I think all of the issues about colorism and queerbaiting will be solved by further seasons. Marina, for example, is a direct foil to Daphne and a (black) female character who didn't get her HEA at the end (although they are in almost the exact same circumstances)....will that be the first thing you think of when they do two more seasons and have other black/poc female leads (Simone Ashley)? I don't think so. I could be wrong. In that sense, I think they colorblind cast "too well". I am wondering if changing the heroine for the next season's name from "Kate Sheffield" to "Kate Sharma" is in response to critcism. Maybe. I don't know. The only thing I would "criticize" about this video is that I've seen a lot of videos critiquing Bridgerton that are really well done - but they seem to take Bridgerton as a serious, historical piece rather than what it is - a regency romance novel series. So by all means, critique the rapey, queer baiting storylines. But the point of this series is for every romance reader that said "wait a minute - we don't want to read about dukes who are over 60*, have syphilis, and ten illegitimate children, so why can't the duke be Indian? Or black? or Gay?" Any historical aspect should be minimal because the romance and relationship is the point of the story. In my opinion, of course. But I hope that its popularity increases the idea of adapting romance novels by streaming channels and cable channels. Bridgerton was almost essentially a blank slate, in terms of adding additional storylines, so I can understand why they chose it - but they could make so many other ones. Beverly Jenkins, KJ Charles, etc. *In England in the mid 1800s, I remember reading that there were only six dukes alive, and only two of them were under the age of sixty

[@gatobuho-]

Honestly, the first book is not to my liking. I prefer Penelope.

[@AzharZhanazarova]

I wish someone would make a movie about Aleksander Pushkin who is considered to be the greatest Russian poet and who was also of African descent. He lived in the same time period as Regency but obviously it was called something else in Russia. He died tragically in a duel similar to Alexander Hamilton, so I think it has good chops to be an interesting story that centers a POC character based on a real person that still holds great renown

[@kinrateia]

He has African heritage from his great-great-grandfather, is it really right to call him a POC?

[@AzharZhanazarova]

@@kinrateia Yes, you're right that he would not be representative of POC and was most certainly light skinned. But looking at his portraits, he was depicted as having Black characteristics, so he definitely didn't look 100% Russian or European. I just wanted to point out that there was a person of African descent that was a part of a prominent Russian noble family and is now the most celebrated Russian poet (on par or even more significant than Leo Tolstoy).

[@kinrateia]

@@AzharZhanazarova yes, as someone who studied Russian history of the period I do know that and his curls are indeed iconic and made a lot of ladies swoon. But the thing is it's hard to define "European" as Europe is itself diverse even without migration. Italians and Greeks look nothing alike Swedes and for some reason weren't even considered white enough by Americans at some point, so it truly is a complicated topic. I do see your point and agree with it, though c:

[@eshbena]

Or even the life of Alexander Dumas, who was a Black French aristocrat, wrote the Three Musketeers, and got seriously white washed by later generations. There are a ton of actual POCs running around Europe, doing great things, throughout European history. Just because most white folks haven't a clue that Black people were actually present in history, is no reason to have to make up fake Black people to write about. XD

[@AzharZhanazarova]

@@eshbena Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make (rather clumsily). It rubs me the wrong way that there's this narrative around having to make up fake stories about Black people in European nobility when these people definitely existed in real life and achieved great things.

[@tariqthomas9090]

There's just something about seeing BIPOC characters participating in the same aristocracy that is responsible for their oppression (especially in a way that is completely unrealistic) that just rubs me the wrong way. I'm glad other people liked this show, though.

[@13realmusic]

It's so sad our African aristocracy has been erased. There were complicated relationships later there of course with the slave trade being a business agreement before the Europeans decided to go full takeover, but before that there were gorgeous kingdoms in Nigeria and Ghana. Not just Egypt.

[@leigy100]

@@13realmusic aristocracys are not something to be proud of.

[@mllesamedi84]

@@13realmusic If you are interested in actual african aristocracy, I suggest you read about the Kingdom of eSwatini.

[@13realmusic]

@@leigy100 you're projecting white western aristocracy animosity on to non western aristocracy. Do reconsider. There's beauty and faults in every kingdom that's ever existed, but we haven't gotten non western kingdoms depicted from a non white lens. Asian kingdoms being an exception, and even in that on screen colorism is at play.

[@FreyaEinde]

I mean on the one hand I hate the concept of hierarchies among people based on inane bullshit on the other hand I really like decadent outfits and hairstyles...in the heart of every rebel is a class traitor...I might resemble that phrase.

[@JulianVJacobs]

i feel so validated because up until then I had literally just thought "this universe is just built different that's fine" and then they were like "all you need is love" and I was like 🙄

[@iateyursandwiches]

One can argue the race relations at that time in their universe was more progressive compared to ours around the same time. Basically, an alternate universe where racism wasn't as bad as it was here and just never reached the level of dehumanization but still there. Not sure if that is the way Shonda and them intended but it's the only thing that makes sense since this is supposed to be a fantasy. If not, it certainly downplays how bad racism was back then; it's not ok and makes the whole black aristocracy thing truly look stupid. Perhaps they were trying to say something about the slight privledge lightskinned especially mixed race people have in white society. More so in Queen Charlotte but again, it seems kinda shallowly done.

[@carlagarcia3427]

How they treated consent in Bridgerton was a big “I’m done”. Nevermind the cute actors and actresses... beside is lazy writing. And unexpected pregnancy due to pull out not being such a good method would have lead to a lot of interesting drama...

[@user-po3nr7ez3n]

I thought the same thing, she would have gotten pregnant that way eventually and I wish it had happened like that

[@larzinthelibrary2530]

If you thought the sexual assault in the show was bad, you would be horrified by the book. I certainly was. I was shocked and beyond disappointed that they included it in the show. They softened it quite a bit, but it wasn't enough. I had hoped that because it had been 20 years since the book was published, that they would do better than that. Sadly, no...

[@mishaz4820]

@@larzinthelibrary2530 yeah as I was listening to the passage read out in this video and how the protagonist was talking specifically about how much power she was wielding over him and how sexy it was for her I was like :(( and the writer DIDNT think this was a sexual assault scene HOW :(?

[@larzinthelibrary2530]

@@mishaz4820 It was horrifying. I will agree with MelinaPendulum that the aftermath was handled a bit better in the book, but the scene itself was so obviously a rape that it was disturbing. He was saying "No, stop!" And she held him down. In the show it was a bit quicker and he just kinda said "Daphne?" but no obvious verbal objections. Still bad, though.

[@scarlet8078]

@@larzinthelibrary2530 What makes it "rape" though? I didn't watch the scene, but it was my understanding the encounter was consensual & these individuals had been having sex for a while. She appears to be much smaller & not engaged in any sort of coercion. He was defrauding her by feigning infertility. Therefore, weren't they both acting badly?

[@beatricet7396]

I didn't watch Bridgerton but I already watched at least other five videos about it. Will I watch this video anyway? Of course. Ahah

[@rikititi1848]

Omg SAME

[@ChibiKawaii3]

My boyfriend doesn't get this lol. He always asks why I watch videos on shows/movies I've never seen .

[@LilliLotus]

Lol me too, half the time I don't even care about the shows/films that are being talked about! 😅

[@AsterInDis]

Same; I think it's because I'm not worried about spoilers but still enjoy listening to youtubers talk about their opinions

[@blackbeachbabe17]

Same 🤣🤣

[@tedcharleceus9753]

I dont understand why both the book and show could not have skip "that" scene because the situation is complex and could lead to an actually interesting conversation between fans if we weren't more concerned about her sexually assaulting him.

[@lydhaile]

@Anita Alvarez Cox exactly!! that scene wasn't necessary at all, they could have achieved the same thing without it. people are saying that if they went the route of her getting pregnant bc of his pull out game then it would have changed the entire dynamic of their sexual relationship but i disagree. they could have made it work, i'd take that over rape any day

[@marisp2588]

And in the end, Daphne faces little to no actual consequences for it and gets what she wants in the end anyways, making it appear to be not a big deal to viewers, which of course is not okay

[@alejandrogangotena9033]

*spoilers* the fact that she raped him completely put me off of her as a protagonist, specially in the way the narrative clearly didnt care or saw her act as evil. I finished the season, but it truly soured the series for me, and it just stopped feeling like what I expect of a romance in every way, where before, I was loving the conflict and management of it.

[@gortozastudios]

when she did that i couldn't believe what i was seeing, it's so fucked up

[@MRuby-qb9bd]

I knew that happened in the book, which is why I didn't plan on watching any of it. The clumsy handling of race is just another reason to keep it off my to watch list.

[@alejandrogangotena9033]

@@MRuby-qb9bd thanks for sharing! I am considered white were I live (though in US or other places I would definetely be seen a slatino or mixed) so thats my bg when I say I didnt feel a problem with that. I just used suspension of disbelief and said to myself "well, at least we can have and see a more diverse approach for settings like this". Hadnt thought about the added frakauperry of the rape scenehaving happened from a white woman to a black man though. That does make it worst, and yeah, I hadnt noticed the colorism, but that`s also a good point Melina made there.

[@aeoligarlic4024]

Seeing people constantly gush about this series all over social medias and actually seeing people discuss the whole thing (like this video) are two completely different experience for me as an outsider

[@annabunovsky5628]

"...or being married to a super creepy old dude- and not in a fun Beetlejuice way" THAT ONE THREW ME HARD

[@ThexDynastxQueen]

I saw the Beetlejuice cartoon before I saw the movie and oh lawd when I finally did my little baby girl mind was not prepared for it 💀

[@annabunovsky5628]

Same!! I’ve always been a Beetlejuice fan, but I was actually more partial to the cartoon because I preferred their relationship in the cartoon, I just thought it was more fun 😂

[@justincheng5241]

One point, the real King George III was very racist and did not support abolition of the slave trade. In the very patriarchal and misogynistic climate of the Regency Period, which is glossed over in Bridgerton, a woman could not openly disagree or oppose her husband, therefore even if Queen Charlotte had black ancestry which is highly, highly contestable, she would not have disagreed or protested her husband's racism.

[@sorzin2289]

@@sagittarius1112able Except for you know the ones who were being sold. And those who hid from and fought slave traders

[@piratesswoop725]

@@sagittarius1112able No, she didn’t. This is even addressed in this video. Her alleged Black ancestor, Madragana, lived 15 generations prior and considering she was born in what is now the Faro region of Portugal to a Muslim family, the daughter of the local magistrate judge on Sharia law, the odds are quite high that she was probably of Arab ancestry since she was living in a region that had been colonized by the Umayyad Caliphate. Even if her family were locals who had just converted, that would indicate they were descended from the Visigoths who had conquered Iberia in the 400s. But most likely they were a mix of both.

[@SlapstickGenius23]

@@piratesswoop725 Portuguese mixed Arab-berbers of Moroccan descent.

[@LonnieBhi]

@@hi-ve1cw So we're going to pretend light to medium tan black people don't exist? Sounds like gatekeeping.

[@sconesandjam]

God the colourism and lack of consent in this show frustrated me so much; thanks for another great video, Melina!

[@kennedyjojackson1202]

@Alex Styles Wow I keep seeing you under all these Bridgerton videos! Because like many other shows it conveniently biracial people at the forefront and parading them around as black. Both the main male character and the supporting character are supposed to be these beacons of hope for change in society, but the show doesn't properly depict how they would get treated for being biracial in that day and age. The creator of the show stated that it's not supposed to take place in a post-racial society or an alternate universe. So it still falls victim to the same repetitive blunders these so-called "woke or socially conscious" shows make.

[@Sharpe1502]

When the casting was announced for Anne Boleyn, I was so annoyed by the people more outraged by a black woman playing Anne Boleyn than they were that Anne Boleyn has literally been done to death! I want a Maria Theresa/Fredrick the Great feud series! Or a buddy movie where Fredrick and Voltaire talk shit about Madame Du Pompadour.

[@llamacj]

A Maria Theresa/ Frederick the Great feud series would be fabulous.

[@BelgianBisous]

YES except for england and the US not a single country gets enough attention. We have the whole of continental europe, asia, australia, africa and Latin-America, all chock full of history yet we get 1000 Tudor movies. To be honest I even find it insulting that they'd rather make a movie about a black anne boleyn than an actual black queen of which there were hundreds, like their stories aren't even worth exploring

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

@@BelgianBisous you complain about west setting storys in the west🤔

[@ArtemisScribe]

there's a youtube account called Lili1127 which has highlights clips from an AMAZING Maria Theresa series from 2017. The clips on that channel are only from Season 1 cuz the youtuber doesn't really like the actress they used to play MT in the later seasons but it's so good. Season 1 is her youth and the War of the Austrian Succession up to her crowning as King of Hungary.

[@BTDubbz]

We need something about Empress Matilda. First female primary heir to the throne of England (she would have been the first Queen Regnant), Holy Roman Empress, and as such would have held the largest European landholdings since Charlemagne, responsible for the first English civil war following the Norman conquest, escaped by herself from a guarded tower in the middle of winter and ran across a frozen river through enemy territory, easily the most powerful woman of her time in Europe and for years to come, and yet there is nothing about her in pop-culture. There’s such potential for a great, feminist historical epic (Elizabeth I but 500 years earlier). At the same time it would be just more white feminism... but at least it would be new.

[@joannamarieart]

I really enjoyed the show, but there were a lot of frustrating elements. Not least of which being the almost complete absence of dark skinned black women, especially among the young cohort, and few black men (one of which being the most vicious villain of the season), and basically no other POC at all. They want to say "we took race greatly into account when casting" but also not enough to reconsider casting almost every speaking character as white, including most of the main families... plus the storyline they chose to give the only young black woman. >.> I really wanted this to just be nonsense fantasy, like an alternate "racism never existed" kind of universe, but trying to shoehorn it in and fix it with "this one king married a black woman and everything was magically fixed!" was just dumb and cheapened the story overall.

[@jimkillerx]

I tried looking for your comment on Black Panther 2 but I couldn’t find a single comment about you complaining about the lack of diversity there. I also had a quick look at Shang-Chi, but no comment from you complaining about the lack of diversity. What’s going on here Joanna? Are we being a little stupid?

[@malum9478]

@@jimkillerx "are we being a little stupid" not 'we', just 'you'.

[@whatisupbruh2738]

I really couldn’t get through this show due to the consent discussion. I can also understand the concept on paper but it was truly just horrid how it was framed when Simon was literally sexually assaulted

[@virgiliacoriolanus5093]

It was worse in the book. The show (and I say these next words loosely) "at least" made it seem as though Daphne was naive and sort of, but did, know what she was doing when she stayed on Simon. To me, when I watched it, they made it more of a stealthing scene (where Simon was fine with it, until he realized that she got on top of him to stay on him when he orgasmed, and THAT was where his panic came from) vs... The book he was completely drunk and it was completely nonconsenting.

[@randomkeir]

@@virgiliacoriolanus5093 Now that would be rape

[@Squirreltasticqueen]

Tbh I can't trust main stream movies to get sex right, from the mpaa being biased and then the pressure to toss in sex where ever and say fuck you to the actors if they feel uncomfortable with that. So really a sexless era of film isn't so bad, they'll be good and bad sex in film but I just am so tired of the bad.

[@florastewart7957]

All the sex is a bit much. I don’t think anyone sane has that much sex. Perhaps it is a fetish for the writers, who went dateless in high school. So voyeuristic.

[@meek537]

I am an ace person and I'd love a sexless era of film :$ /nm

[@liampatrick3110]

@@florastewart7957 Prudish much?

[@florastewart7957]

My two dead husbands think you are funny

[@LillyBatty]

What really annoyed me about Bridgerton is that they claim to be diverse or colourblind-casting or whatever and then not have a single South Asian character of significance. This just seems like such a shallow, US Americanized analysis of race issues that completely fails to address British colonialism. (also, as a German I was personally offended that the Prussian prince was supposed to have a castle in Vienna, like, no, that's a whole different country and has been for many, many, many centuries, lol)

[@Princess_Weekes]

Yup and I bring that up in here AT LEAST we will have one next season

[@stephj9378]

jeez...

[@hexbugfightclub]

Ok, I can understand Quinn’s position in that panel, but yiiiiiiiikes the vocabulary she used in that comment about historical Jewish people and how her ‘good’ characters would have to explain why they feel compassion towards Jewish people.....this ain’t it. I’m not accusing her of anything but phrasing like this really perpetuates social ambivalence towards antisemitism, intentional or no

[@FreyaEinde]

It's why I kinda hate this bait of a question though because, on a certain level the person asking already knows the author is Ill equipped to deliver a certain thing...or else they'd already be doing it. So the whole point is to catch them in the explanation and tear then apart and brand them...either with it or a racist. It's a real waste of time and it's a sound bite dig and I kinda hate it but it's material so...

[@Jjames763]

I think she was speaking off the cuff and deserves a ton of leeway just based off that alone. If you take the charitable interpretation of what she was saying, you actually run into a pretty interesting dilemma-how exactly can you keep a character relatable when, during such a time period, even extremely good-natured people were virulently bigoted due to social conditioning and sheer ignorance? She’s right to point out that simply pretending like her characters aren’t bigoted completely apropos of nothing would be jarring and contrived barring a really damn good explanation, and I can’t blame her for not wanting to even try. This isn’t just an issue with white/gentile characters, either. If you wanted to write about, say, an orthodox Jewish community in 18th century Amsterdam, or a group of escaped slaves living in Canada, or really any other group living anywhere else at the time, you’d have to depict pretty much everyone, heroes and villains, carrying around a shitload of sexism, homophobia, and general bigotry.

[@itowilltube]

@@Jjames763 how can your write a bunch of historical fiction and ignore the racist and homophobic and everything you care about but still say these are good cherished people .....it innately says passive heterodoxy and is same issue i have with praise for handmaid's tale the novelist saying she sent black people back to Africa and thus didn't have to explore that but then wrote while novel exploring white slavery Ummm. You can't love this period be education on hair and bussles and know what kinda of love interest and still expect actual people of color to praise you. This level of ignorance and I mean literal ignoring a problem because you can't explain away your lack of perspective. Yet are able to research every other aspect of period. It feels like criticism lobbed at these creators is somewhat valid they wanted regency, antebellum to be more romantic than reality would bare , and maybe these should be referred to as romance fantasy which always peaks of white supremacists fantasy. Just an opinion

[@dawnschoonover662]

@@Jjames763 This is exactly how I feel. Having to respond to a baited question, while under a lot of pressure, and try to say something that is meaningful and eloquent is insane. I'm surprised she was able to say it as well as she did, and I completely agree with her. She's writing about a time period that is racist, sexist, anti sematic, classist, and a whole bunch of other horrible things just as the baseline for normal society. If you're going to write a storyline that challenges that you have to show that evolution, which she does with sexism and classism to an extent. But you can't have a character that's a member of nobility and was raised in this society suddenly have world shatteringly different views for no reason, and certainly not publicly. And you can't explain it away with "they're good people therefore they just inherently know racism is bad" because of all the things that implies. So for someone who is just wanting to write a cute romance you need to write a really heavy book, trivialize and simplify an issue in a way that's probably insulting, or avoid it all together. I get why she made that decision.

[@dawnschoonover662]

@Bella Rose I didn’t say she was eloquent, I said expecting someone to be eloquent when they’re speaking off the cuff and having to answer a nuanced question under pressure is unreasonable.

[@tangent94]

'having a Filipino son with no questions asked" i actually had a lot of questions about that, as a kid.

[@FoxxyFatima]

Your not the only one.

[@lancelotle]

I haven't even gotten to that part but I feel like I know exactly what movie you're talking about 😂

[@ambriaashley3383]

"pastel progressivism"! I'm loving this new term 😭

[@fangsabre]

It makes me severely uncomfortable that Daphne sees no problem in punishing her husband for feeling betrayed when she took away his ability to consent. Especially when given that she knew he was asleep and initiated sexual contact knowing what she was going to do. Like, I can't see her character past that. And to have even the show effectively be on her side and shes done nothing wrong makes my skin crawl

[@caitling3109]

Yes, Alyssa Cole exists! For all those being like “well , romance novels are just problematic.” I’m like, “it doesn’t have to be and there are many current writers who are so much better, telling more interesting stories with more diverse characters!” I also like Courtney Milan. Anyone else have recommendations? Also, Princess, love this essay, your videos in general, and your regency inspired look in this!

[@OtakuSapien]

Try Cat Sebastian if you're into Regency romance, especially queer romance. Beverly Jenkins also writes a lot of period pieces set in America, if you want to get away from Regency/Victorian, and she has a LOT of books under her belt to choose from

[@briefisbest]

Thank you for shouting out the authors I love 💗

[@Sandreline]

People who say that romance novels are problematic don't keep up with the romance community. Romance is consistently at the forefront of social justice conversations in literature.

[@readilykatie8312]

Tessa Dare is another fun regency romance author (while not diverse) whose books ooze respectful consent and feminist discourse!

[@wildcatste]

I adore Alyssa Cole. Also Sonali Dev has remixes of Austen set in a South Asian community in San Francisco.

[@stephanieb5120]

'A Royal Experiment: the Private Life of King George III' is a great non-fiction book about King George and Queen Charlotte, their millions of kids, and the dysfunction therein. Just fyi to anyone scrolling past who might be interested. Great video!

[@Princess_Weekes]

I LOVE THAT BOOK!

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

I know it's popular to roll one's eyes at any attempt at historical accuracy, but it is something I'd like more of in TV/film historical pieces. That's not code for "make white", but an actual desire to tell these complex stories about complex people. People tend to rid complete nuance from any historical piece they make. It's frustrating because these are legitimately interesting stories and people that lived in history. Yasuke, Mansa Musa, Cyrus, Caratacos, etc. Different conversation I know, but one I feel is worth having.

[@yarpen26]

Historical accuracy debate tends to revolve around the topics that make blood boil the most in today's world, so race and sexual orientation. But that's only one issue and a relatively easy to avoid at that (most of those casting choices are made by producers anyway and it's always big news on Twitter and the like so it's part of the marketing campaign). What is truly remarkable is just the unpronouncable chasm between the actual worldview of the past and the one we are presented with: nobody gives a fuck about religion, everybody spouts American-style cynical humor like a late night show host and everything is just. So. Damn. *Sexualized!* Yeah, well, sorry. Much of history is boring. Those folks weren't the same as we. That's perhaps why only the select few writers can actually get them right. But they tend to put their efforts in some genuine pieces, not tween fantasies.

[@Jazzy115]

Bridgerton fans are intense I said under another youtubers video on this show who praised it, that I was hesitant as a dark skin black person to watch the show and I got this angry comment about how “I only heard it was problematic but I don’t know cuz I haven’t watched it” like how condescending can you be trying to tell someone who is actually affected by colorism rather or not I should watch this show.

[@user-po3nr7ez3n]

That's rough. I dont know why ppl cant respect that something they enjoy could be flawed without getting so worked up. I enjoyed the show in a turn your brain off visual spectacle kind of way, but I'm also someone who loves all things jane Austin, the books, adaptations, especially pride and prejudice and this show was like a sexy pride and prejudice fantasy. But when I watched it, I did notice the colorism right away, so when I told my friend who is a darker skinned black woman about the show and how I did enjoy it, I did warn her that this was one of the shows most obvious flaws and one she will notice probably quicker than I did. Like I know the colorism in this show isnt gonna hit me emotionally, a lightish skinned south asian girl, the same way it will hit my friend, and I dont think it's something I should be offended about even though I did enjoy the show Well enough

[@Jazzy115]

@@user-po3nr7ez3n Agreed I don’t understand why ppl can’t do that, nothing is without flaws. Thank you for your comment. I’m glad we are getting a dark skin Asian women next season but I still think we have to acknowledging how Netflix chooses to cast black people more specifically black women. I should not be shocked when I see a black women who looks like me in a lead role but I am because we rarely get dark skin black women as a led role on a Netflix show, they are always mixed or light skin and I’m tired of that.

[@deadmanreading3152]

Sucks that happened. I just recently discovered Julia Quinn and binged the books. I really like them but I honestly don't have any plans to see the show either. I've just got too many books to read and the book is almost invariably better. I'm genderqueer and pretty much never see myself represented. (Not sure I have a strong urge to honestly, but it is nice if done well.) Not to excuse anyone being rude but I think there's a reason a lot of fans of romance in particular get defensive considering the massive stigma against it. For let's be honest, no other reason than sexism. Yes, romance, mainstream historical romance in particular, has issues of racism, sexism capitalism, etc but I think too many people are much harsher on that genre than others with the same problems. Fantasy, Steampunk, you name it, y'know? And I think for far too many youtubers it's not because they give a shit about these issues, it's just about clickbait and jumping on the hate bandwagon, etc. It's why I trust Melinapendulum as she is one of the few whom will give an actual nuanced perspective.

[@moustik31]

I know. I commented that Anthony was abusive and that it would make it difficult to root for next season, and I was blasted into oblivion. Still stand by my opinion. He worked well as a villain. I didnt expect him to be the lead of season 2.

[@AsterInDis]

Might I suggest Khadija Mbowe's video? She definitely addresses colorism in the show.

[@lousielouise8716]

Bridgerton is a feast for the eyes... less for the brain. Thank you for this review!

[@annenonimus6709]

Is it, tho? Because seeing those stays without a chemise underneath is visual cringe.

[@annabelcrescibene4257]

@@annenonimus6709 best comment

[@kraziiXIII]

@@annenonimus6709 it can be a feast for the eyes in an ahistorical fantasy setting lol

[@annenonimus6709]

@@kraziiXIII Nah, still cringe. No chemise under corse is like no socks. Your feet are gonna be sweaty, your shoes will stink and your feet are also gonna get hurt.

[@Sleipnirseight]

The Great was a much better feast for the eyes. The costuming was 👌👌

[@lethe.archive]

i feel like my biggest beef with this series is how ‘being married to royalty’ cured racism when we have a literal real life example of this and the couple was essentially left the line of succession because of harassment. it would still be a terrible explanation without the real life example but it would feel a touch less tone deaf

[@a.inesfidalgo3367]

Same, I would rather they didn't even address race than have it be that.

[@lydhaile]

@@a.inesfidalgo3367 exactly. they only mentioned race because they felt obligated to, but now that we know race exists in that world and it's not just some fantasy land, it messes up the entire dynamic because nothing else makes sense. like if you're gonna talk about it, at least do it right.

[@piratesswoop725]

They left their position as working members of the royal family, but Harry is, and always will be (until he dies/unless he converts to Catholicism) in the line of succession. Same with Archie and the future baby when it’s born. Their places will fluctuate with the eventual deaths of their great grandmother and grandfather, and eventually when their three cousins start having children, but they cannot have their right to succeed removed or taken away.

[@bbrbbr-on2gd]

Would you do a video about revisionist history, and how people like Quentin Tarantino can make a movie about killing Hitler, but add a POC to something and suddenly "realism/Historical accuracy" becomes so important.

[@smilesallround]

Great suggestion!

[@ArtemisScribe]

an excellent point!

[@jasminecrawford42]

Exactly, just say y'all hate POC and GO.

[@alexman378]

Am I missing something? What are you talking about?

[@ArtemisScribe]

@@alexman378 it's just a request for her to expand on a point she made in the video. It's a good point and would make a very interesting topic in it's own right. You're not missing anything.

[@bogunicorn]

I'm only 20mins in but as someone who both loves Outlander and loves to criticize Outlander: holy actual shit do I wish Diana would stop trying to "not like other girls" Outlander. It's a romance. The primary motivations for most of the main characters is their romantic relationship. That's how the genre works. But then this is also the writer who introduced slavery into her story through the context of Claire Making It About Her, and Have I Mentioned She Has One Black Friend?, so...

[@virgiliacoriolanus5093]

Ugh that is what I HATE about Outlander, and specifically why I skip the episode where Jamie and Claire see Jocasta for the first time. All of that would be fine, if it was then PART OF THE STORYLINE. Jamie and Claire and the Underground Railroad or something. I see a lot of people who criticize the show for not including the minor POC characters (A lot were pissed when Phaedre was not in the 5th season, etc) - and I'm like why? Their function in the book (beyond the two - Phaedre and Ulysses - that had sexual/romantic relationships with their white masters) is to either be slaves or tell their stories to the white main characters, who nod in sympathy, say something supportive, and then leave when they've done what they need to. That is basically it. That's not representation. That's "you need to criticize the author for writing characters that can be excised so easily because the books are over a thousand pages long and they only have 12 episodes".

[@bogunicorn]

@@virgiliacoriolanus5093 Imagine I have "liked" this comment at least a dozen times. I can understand why "Claire goes back in time and SOLVES SLAVERY" wasn't something Diana wanted to do (and shouldn't have), but there WERE ways that the Frasers as white people - eventually as white land owners (!) - could have done more for slaves or indigenous people than just go "that's awful, I'm so glad my One Black Friend in the Future doesn't have to deal with this anymore". Girl, really? I get that they wanted a rich ally in the colonies, but Jocasta squicks me all the way out. "She's a GOOD slaveowner and Ulysses is in love with her!" The fuck with that. There are so many choices you could make if you want to have a rich or influential ally for them but don't want to actively make them a slaveowner. Jocasta could've had a living husband who controlled everything. She could have had a male relative who inherited if you wanted to keep her single. She could have lived somewhere else, in a place where she could "get away" with having paid help but not a whole-ass plantation. Cities were things! But this squirmy thing where Jocasta owns humans but don't worry, guys, she's one of the GOOD ones, she's one of the GOOD CHARACTERS (vs. being someone they have ties to but being around her is kind of making a deal with the devil to survive or something) is... eugh. Sure, okay. I'm further along in the show than I am in the books right now, so I don't know yet how the book is going to handle the Frasers' interactions with the tribe whose land they settle on. I appreciate, to an extent, that Diana doesn't too often give characters opinions or instincts that are hundreds of years ahead of their time. One of the things I like about Claire is that, for all her progressive modern attitudes, she is still ultimately fairly progressive in the context of her own time period (the 40s and then the 60s), rather than being a perfect 21st Woke Lady (mostly). I LIKE that she and Jamie clash because of their cultural values. I even find it interesting that she ends up striking a balance between Jamie's documented dedication to freedom for his own people and protectiveness of his own homeland with his period appropriate racism, and that Claire doesn't "cure" him of it through a heartfelt conversation, because that's not how unlearning racism works. But there are times when you can see the clear difference between "this is the character being the character" and "here is Diana Gabaldon putting in her own opinions, #nofilter", and the second one happens a LOT when anyone of color shows up.

[@bleachitwhite]

THAT fact about keanu reeves...thank you king indeed

[@piratesswoop725]

i don’t think i’ve ever seen him in a sex scene in a movie either so when i say this revelation had me SHOOK

[@creepydoll2872]

He sorta does in My Private Idaho though its more of a montage of still photos

[@satyr_9]

I'm just going to say this as someone who has done research on the topic of Black people in Britain during 18th to 19th century that it has not been an easy topic to research because there is a lack of secondary and accessible sources due to the fact a lot of white researchers don't have an interest in the topic, especially in the early 2000s when the Duke and I was published. The onus on finding out more about black people living in history is entirely on black academics, but there has been a more concentrated effort during the last ten years to compile more information about Black people in British history (there is even a wikipedia page now with a brief overview). That being said, I do read a lot of Regency romances, and I don't get the impression that Julia Quinn as a writer in this genre has the best grasp of the time period. The research she does, especially in her earlier books, feels very surface level, and based mostly on pop culture norms and modern ideas of the period. Her books are very light and fluffy, and that isn't a bad thing, it's just that you're right; she doesn't have the range to handle racism or antisemitism in her books. If people want to read historical romances by black authors I would suggest Beverly Jenkins and Alyssa Cole, and if people want to learn more about Black people in British history I would recommend Staying Power by Peter Fryer as a primer.

[@ironicallynice]

Thanks for the recommendation. This comment could be pinned.

[@stephenwilcockson3498]

As someone who went through a similar experience with an ex partner as was discussed from 20:49 it was painful to see it on screen and brought back some memories I'd rather not live. But thank you for raising that point that what she did was wrong. It took me a few years to accept what happened to me and to be able to describe to others what happened to me as rape. I've received negative backlash from a number of people whom I've told about it. There's certainly a stigma towards male rape victims, so to see reinforcement that there's a serious consent problem in that instance and that it is a violation - I really appreciated that.

[@st.paulsmemorialepiscopalc6096]

"Decolonize your mind to the monarchy." THIS!!!!!!

[@pagodrink]

It's weird to me that the author seems to not want her characters to have implicit bias but overall decent, they either have to be anti racist or full blown racist, at least that is how she seems to make the case, but having a women violate her husbands wishes is fine? That plot would have worked better if she had gone to a different man to have children or adopt an orphan. It would still be some conflict and trust issues without having this dubious consent issue.

[@MaurauderGirl]

He uses the pull out method, so she could've just gotten pregnant anyway! There still would've been plenty of drama

[@irondragonmaiden]

I can't tell if they couldn't decide to go for the Gossip Girl in Regency era with modern thinking protagonists fantasy versus reality or if the writers have fucked up double standards about rape.

[@botanicalitus4194]

yeah if she went to a different man that would have been 1000 times better than having her commit R and then the show bot discussing the topic apporpriately.

[@jasminemoon9965]

I thought I was the only one super uncomfortable when she forced him to keep going like that. The entire time after that I could not sympathize with her at all .

[@summerjams3650]

saaaame!!

[@aisharena4109]

When the author talks about having to explain why black people are in these stories frustrates me. Like, no you don’t. As the author, you create this world even if it’s based on a real time period. You are God. Your characters live and die on your whim😉

[@vecarter569]

Amen!!! You set your own rules and alternate situations or narratives.

[@briarrosegael2015]

What do we mean ‘based on?’ Do we mean like aesthetically?

[@dantan1249]

She uses not living as them as an excuse when she never lived in that time period either.

[@abbygailvalcourt6577]

Preach! Some writers forget that they are in charge and that they have the control. Yet they don't use properly.

[@namoma4922]

True but manifestly she value historical accuracy which is her concern As a writter i could also write a story where any politician attempting a racist law would get immediatly booted out by a public who doesn't tolerate that shit. And that can happen in real life. But what can also happen in real life is that most of the people won't give a shit if it doesn't concern them(yes false equivalence but you get my point) Call this a "as a black man" but I don't feel the absolute need to be forcefully included in a time period and social caste(one which in addition is cause of many suffering for others) which actually would have few black people in it. This only apply to "nobility" type of show in Europe/shows set in "very white" settings(high class america, some neighborhoods) and even in the latter i d argue there had to be at least one poc in it. In ANY OTHER context or setting however agree that Having poc demands no explanation at all(and in some setting, lacking poc is a big lack of realism) so not having them is either an oversight(a white author will tend to naturally think more of other white person, like a male author would naturally think more of male character), a conscious choice or a very misguided self limitation that old no real logic behind it. In her case this was circumventable either by writing about royalties of other areas(which would have required way more research and might not really be her place as someone not from that culture) or by including black nobility character inspired by real exemples. The former is not what she wanted to write about and it's valid In the case of the later it's not a fact known by many and to be completly honest the only example i have heard about before this video was in a moovie i forgot about which specifically treated the romance between the black noblewoman and some white dude(don't remember the plot) So while you could say she could have "just researched" i can't blame her for not knowing.

[@alavenderfawn4025]

"Let's get together and steeeeal white roles." Beautiful. Iconic. I needed that this morning, you don't even know.

[@norahammen1275]

rewatched brandy's cinderella a few days ago, hit me right in the nostalgia omg. love the songs, love the cast, but was super sad when i looked up the actor who played the prince and saw he has had very few major acting roles because i want to see him in more

[@13realmusic]

I really love the idea of more Black, and other non-white aristocracy depictions but especially for the Black community. At least some places in Asia from Korea to Japan have been able to tell their own stories and have them accepted by some western media types, Nollywood hasn't had that same experience. Maybe that is part along with their filming style which comes across very low budget, but there are whole kingdoms to be explored starring Black people in Africa, not the same Greek Cleopatra storyline where in which the rest of the Egyptians also end up being not Black/brown for some reason.

[@angelscores4332]

LITERALLYYY WHAT IVE BEEN SAYINGGG,,, it’s straight up cultural racism

[@genesistafari9006]

I love nollywood films

[@mynameisuju]

Ok the low-budget thing you threw in there gave me feels that I dont like as a Nigerian who loves nollywood. For 1, we DO tell stories about our history, they're just usually in native languages. I've watched movies about pre-colonial Igboland but it was entirely in Igbo. Secondly, alot of the "low budget" vibes are done on purpose. Nigerian tend to prefer informality in our story telling. It's why many actors are encouraged to freestyle even with a script. Third, MOST of the films coming out of Nollywood today do not even still have the "low budget" vibe of the 2000s. Infact I havent seen that since Patience ozokwor was her full villain self. And that was like in 2007 or something. Finally, we do not have access to the stories that you want to see because they were taken from us. Imagine blaming us for the damages caused by the colonizers loll Like we've spent decades since independence just trying to get 90% of our art back from Britain. What stories do you want us to tell when we dont know them? Please check how you dismiss Nollywood, and especially how classist it comes off when you call us and our art "low-budget" it felt rude. And after writing my thoughts I agree with my initial feelings

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

I'm from Egypt and we are not black we can range from dark brown to white

[@13realmusic]

@@mynameisuju I wasn't dissing Nollywood, I was pointing out a possible reason for why non African audiences might not be interested in Nollywood. Not that every Nollywood film even looks that way, or that there is anything bad with their storytelling structure, it just appears cheap through the Western film viewer lens. And native people do still have access to the stories and history in Nigeria and other countries that were colonized. The lack of artifacts and written records aside they still exist orally and people are working on making new records. It's just to say for example stories like Mulan or the European story of Sir Arthur and Merlin those urban legends to ancient histories get retold in fiction constantly, but I've never seen a western fim try and adapt any legends from Africa. If it happens it's in pieces as a plot element, not for a full adaption like The Hot Chick or Teeth. Bad Hair was more of a modern African legend adaption.

[@jacobvardy]

Annoyingly, the show's althist premise actually happened in France. A bit. A number of French nobles had kids with enslaved people. Some of those kids were brought to France and made part of the aristocracy. Alexandre Dumas probably being the most famous. All of which gets deleted from history. Edit. Commented too soon. It came up near the end of the video.

[@jetblackbiovuac]

With season 3 coming out, my partner was considering watching the show. I wanted some background and really appreciated the nuanced discussion you offered. Thanks!

[@grooviestmaster]

Thank you SO DAMN MUCH for talking about Marina!!! Justice for her NEOW! Misogynoir! Misogynoir! 🤮🤢🤮🤢 She deserves more

[@sveme5450]

My re-emerging richard armitage obsession did not need that throwaway line, excuse me

[@owenalicia]

10:00 Me: *hears* "Serving toxic black paternity to the gods" *Pictures Lord Hastings duck walking out after the twice as good speech*

[@spookydonkey42]

Whenever princess weekes says something like "but we'll talk about that in another video" it makes me giddy cause it means more of her, of which there cannot be enough 🙏💯💌

[@a_real_one2000]

Respect for mentioning Harlots. Damn that series was so underrated. I wish more people checked it. Had to comment now I can finish watching the rest of the video. PS shout out to “The Great” becuz due to the colorblind casting I found it interesting that their was a Black Noblemen in Russia. And was shocked that there actually was (Black)African noblemen in 17th century Russian Empire.

[@YunierViada]

Oh that writer’s commentary on why exclusion YIKES

[@katherinealvarez9216]

2:08 yup, even I went “How. How in one generation did all that change!?”

[@chairmechanic]

She really gave us the red dress and black lace gloves and then took off one of these gloves with her teeth, I'm.... *swoons*

[@whitneywoods1688]

Real talk: "being married to a super creepy old dude- and not in a fun Beetlejuice way" spoke to me more than I want to admit. You are fabulous

[@floreawe]

"i didn't include people of color bc the white characters are good to their core and i don't want them to be racist." so just....don't make them racist...

[@fangsabre]

It sounded more like "I dont want to have to write a reason for them to not be racist in historical eras where most people would be racist"

[@ea7109]

To be fair, I prefer Quinn's reasoning not to place other races in her books, rather than the clumsy 'solving' of racism in the Netflix series. She just doesn't have the range, and I wish she'd literally just said that 🤭

[@namoma4922]

I think it's sensible: I think it's way too easy of an handwave for shows with settings that have widespread racism(either our "wonderful" irl brand of racism or fantaisy racism) to have the main cast be magically be naturally good people very aware of the underpriviledged struggle and not racist, despite the fact otherwise the entirety of society is racist It makes it too much of "racism is only a problem of evil people and people who make mistake" and while malice and ignorance is certainly a great part, You don't have a racist society without it being widespread and embedded in the system. The main character are often, willingly or not part of it either at the start or throughtrough most of the story so it's unrealistic to me a large group just so happen to not have the bad part of their society touch them for no reason. She COULD have written such a reason for them not to be racist/Deal in the story with the fact they have those bias but either way she'd have to at least acknowledge that part in story which is would have been interesting i would admit, but it would have been something ultimatly irrelevant to the plot she was writing

[@mophead_xu]

@@namoma4922 not quinn, but lisa kleypas have written some historical romance novels where the protagonists were of completely different class and social statuses, and those issues did take up a significant portion of the story. so i can only imagine how the story would be if the protagonists were of different race, bc that'll probably result in more scrutiny from the society they live in than ... a rich girl eloping with a barn boy or something.

[@irinaiturri]

@@hi-ve1cw I totally agree with you

[@onix2o505]

Why did youtube randomly unsubscribe me from you?????anyway I love ur message and view on this show

[@Princess_Weekes]

Rude! And thank you so much

[@katherinealvarez9216]

They can do that!?

[@Frank-ju8qr]

I realised a few days ago I was unsubscribed too, and my memory for names is terrible so it took a while to find my way back 😅

[@knowdaqueen177]

I thought I was crazy because I just subscribed a few weeks ago and I clicked on this one and was unsubscribed

[@TheKhronos]

This happened to me too!! Wth

[@nataliep856]

WE DID IT JOE absolutely took me out skskks

[@KatDoll2010]

When reading one of Jane Austen's books, North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell, Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, or other books written by authors who grew up and were alive during the periods they wrote about, I find that I can at some level relate to the discussions that are had by characters about social and political issues that are mentioned by the characters. Even the characters themselves and the dialogue are natural and at some level are also relatable. Overall, when I read these books I have the thoughts that human beings have both changed a lot and not changed at all over centuries when I find similarities in struggles or the way relationships are discussed. When I see excerpts from books written by 21st-century authors that take place in a different century, such as the excerpts that were read aloud in this video, I feel extremely confused as to why these authors always write Regency men, for example, as just always blatantly stating "I OWN YOU!" to women or having this type of similar dialogue since it always seems so......unnatural or as if to create some sort of romanticized view of a past era. It seems like these authors want to constantly say "I am just being historically accurate. I want there to be some integrity in my story." Yet, in contrast, dialogue and discussions in the books I mentioned above are not as outlandish or unrealistic as this, which is how I would describe these modern adaptations of past eras. They just don't ever seem to actually be "historically accurate" in how things are discussed or develop in these stories. I am not sure if any of this makes sense in how I am trying to describe it, but in a way it almost feels like these modern authors use past eras as an "excuse" almost to write about violence against women, and men as well, or to write characters acting with undiscussed bigotry and pass it off as just "historically accurate" so it doesn't need to be discussed. Also, I agree with many discussions other people have below of how there needs to be other historical pieces that are created that explore other centuries or eras in other cultures and countries. Expand the types of experiences and perspectives that are presented in stories created for an audience. There is so much that passes through my mind in terms of critiquing the way that these modern written historical pieces are written in comparison to pieces that are written within the period they take place, but I don't want to go on and on. I enjoy for the most part Austen's, Gaskell's, Bronte's, etc books, but I hadn't found any modern authors to enjoy in this type of genre. Many people in the comments below have suggested other authors that I want to check out though. Excellent video Melina!

[@petalchild]

Agreed with everything you wrote!

[@vilwarin5635]

I agree 100%. It totally ruins the story when a period character talks in 21 century fashion. It´s like the last adaptation of Little Women, when Amy has her stupid monologue abut marriage been a monetary issue. Like, of course a man of her period would know, she desn´t need to say so. It is only for us the audience to understand.

[@mushroomsalttea]

cw// rape and spoilers my little sister was looking into watching this show and i'm so glad that i found khadija mbowe's video on it (yours is great as well, that one was the one that alerted me to the issue) because i would not have known about the rape scene otherwise. it scares me that people think that this is acceptable, and i feel so bad for the actor playing simon because it was made to seem normal and romantic that daphne did this to him, when it's not; the actress who plays daphne excuses her character's actions and it's disgusting. i'm so glad that you addressed this topic in your video, and i love your content (especially the new one you made about i kissed a girl) so much. rape is disgusting, and this helped further the harm that leads to male victims of rape never being taken seriously. whether simon's a controlling person or not according to that little book club does not negate the fact that he was raped. it's horrifying to normalize this, and the scene should never have been. thank you so much for sectioning out the video in a way that can help the viewers with triggering topics; as someone who gets triggered by sexual violence and such, this helped me mentally prepare myself for the topic.

[@pineconequeen6691]

It’s fine to tell a story with a scene with a lack of consent, but don’t frame it as romantic or forgivable. Don’t frame it as a romance between the character who r*ped the other, you can tell this story, but discourage r*pe culture from romanticizing it, and use it to raise awareness, especially of those who look over male victims of r*pe. Just because he’s male doesn’t mean Daphne’s actions were justified. They never could have been.

[@SaysThisCat]

I really did get excited thinking they had constructed the show with color blind casting. I watched and enjoyed the drama of the series, but was left with a lingering dissatisfaction regarding the plot points you've addressed. Always love your analysis!

[@vsboardza]

Gotta have black trauma somewhere indeed🤣🤣🤣😭

[@elliot2331]

A really good period drama is Black Sails.

[@literarylady1125]

Daphne is kind of boring in looks & personality. I find it strange that even when she obtains the title of Duchess she still dresses like a child. Her rivals look more mature than her. Also, I want to see more of Will. The s*x scenes were tiring after a while & had me waiting for something to progress the story. I felt like I was watching human "mating rituals" on National Geographic because there was nothing passionate, sensual, or romantic in them. No one had a genuine relationship that I was rooting for. I loved Colin's pure soul & Will's love of his family though

[@maikujakufan]

Thanks for tracking down those Julia Quinn comments. I saw some people mentioning her past comments on twitter a while back. But no one in the thread provided any links and since it was after the show came out googling things like "Julia Quinn controversy" only turned up stuff about the show.

[@selwatchesyt]

I’m so happy you did a deep dive into the show and addressed everything. I’ve been waiting for this video since the show dropped.

[@centreoftheselights]

In terms of colour-blind casting of period dramas, I'm surprised that no-one seems to have been talking about The Great with Elle Fanning.

[@carmendelcastillo7724]

Now that was a great show!

[@sagittarius1112able]

Loved this show and I'm black.

[@freya1132]

Love this show

[@grzegorzswist]

That show is all over the place. While I can accept one or two token black guys at court. (It was actually historically accurate) the fack that there were black actors playing rank and file Russian soldiers was too much. Can't wait till I see movie with black samurai.

[@freya1132]

@@grzegorzswist it's not supposed to be an accurate show though?

[@pinkopat]

This video couldn't have come at a more perfect time, I just finished watching Bridgerton this morning and I've been devouring all related video essays

[@saffodils]

this is not the first bridgerton video ive seen, but it is the first in which the commentator has read the books and references the author's response to discussions of The Scene™. much as i love a good period drama, it sounds like this one will have to be a pass-but i hope it inspires other showrunners to embrace diversity!

[@kerryann7424]

All I really wanna say is that I really wished Still Starcrossed was still going. :(

[@pastelhotmess9299]

that one was GOOD

[@floBar51651]

I really hated how they casted Simon's dad and the dark skinned servants as well. Shonda has her thing going on, it's same old story.

[@morivice6835]

Yay Still Star-Crossed shout out everyone watch that it's better we Had 2 dark skinned Black women

[@CostumedFiend_Audio]

I still haven't seen Bridgerton, but I've seen Still Star Crossed and it seems like it was a more organized adaption, as well as little better at the representation they were going for.

[@MsKristinaRose]

I’m still crossing my fingers that Shonda will bring it back on Netflix

[@StrawberryChaiLatte]

I was late to finding out about it but I remember binging the hell out of it over the weekend. I was so disappointed when I got to the finale and there was nothing more.

[@CostumedFiend_Audio]

@@StrawberryChaiLatte I was glad we at least got a kiss before the show was canceled, but it still has a bit of a cliff hanger, which is unfortunate.

[@ArtemisScribe]

Still pissed that Still Star-Crossed got cancelled and while I'm over the moon that Lashana is getting big time Hollywood roles now it also hurts that her success means there's basically no chance of us ever getting the band back together. (Unless we get a movie... oh my god imagine a movie!)

[@WinningSidekick]

I just want a period drama about Alexandre Dumas Senior, for the love of god, the man had SUCH a cool life

[@KyokoVondecamp]

THANK YOU for adressing these issues. I would also add two things, first : in the novel, Penelope is supposed to be ugly. Not fat, ugly. But for the showrunners, I guess an undesirable character must be...fat ? Fat does not = uglyness. Besides, the actress that plays Penelope is gorgeous, so we're just supposed to pretend she's undesirable because...She is fat ? I get that yes, in a fatphobic society it is the case. But I dont appreciate how they litteraly translated "ugly" character in the novel with fat character in the serie. And how they want to make us believe that the character is ugly even though the actress is beautiful by most society's expectations of prettyness. I also dont like how we KEEP having male cis fat character who are made the butt of the joke or/and evil. I am talking of course about Nigel (the guy that wants to marry Daphnee). We immediately are forced, as spectactors, to hate him BEFORE knowing how evil he is just because he is fat and "ugly" (marketed as "undesirable" so he MUST be evil..) ?. Whereas, the prince, that we knows nothing about except he is skinny and pretty, is not considered dangerous although he could be (yes he does not pursue her after she refused him, good for him, but he is painted as a good guy even before we know he is not a douchebag for facts, just because he is skinny, blonde and pretty). We must advocate for better male fat character and stop demonizing them or making fun of them.

[@hello--_-5188]

I’m pretty sure in the books Penelope was overweight but when she became a love interest she lost weight. Which is still problematic

[@thaboiinblue]

I had ZERO interest in watching this series thanks to the discourse I heard about it, but I so appreciate your discussion of it and now I feel like I know enough to vindicate my decision to skip. EXCELLENT video as always!!! 😄😄😄

[@bgoodnow]

The episode where Daphne assaults Simon, and then the story carries on like nothing happened was the breaking point for me. I never finished the first season! I almost didn’t watch the second season, which I’m glad I did, because it was much better! I honestly enjoyed Queen Charlotte, I binged it in one day.

[@JuuuDantas]

I don't have netflix anymore, so when I started seeing people talking about Brigerton and I was... uh so a less hot version of Dickinson

[@ぼじん-o5r]

I really hope that soon people can make shows where ppl are gender blind cast becus I'm sick of women just playing housewives who try to catch bachelors for their daughters and men ruling society /politics/ govt. Let's mix that up /srs

[@BelgianBisous]

Right? There needn't even be gender blind casting. There's countless of examples of wealthy women simply refusing to marry and give their wealth and privilege to their husbands, and queens practically ruling everything through a dumb husband. but no let's do the 100th poor woman succeeds in life by marrying rich dude movie

[@mothturtle7897]

You should try Gentleman Jack. Based on Anne Lister, who was about as openly lesbian as you could be at the time. She was a landowner and industrialist, and she had a "Boston marriage" with a lady called Anne Walker.

[@IngridAsInBergman]

You’re a delight. I’m so glad I found your channel. Your analysis and commentary is 🎯

[@nickywal]

The thing about Asian representation, specifically Indian/Pakistani representation, being missing is that its a very American thing. Most British tv shows will have it, because that's such a huge population. So calling a show diverse and "colour blind" solely because it includes some light skinned black people is right up the performative alley frankly. Modern Britain is a lot more than white and black people, as is modern America and a lot of those black people are going to be Afro-Caribbean than anything

[@aeoligarlic4024]

It may not be perfect but i appreciate how british tv handle their diversity, i think in a way it's better than hollywood

[@juliadandy6019]

Just started the video and have to say - DAMN, that look is FIRE

[@sucrosesanction]

Thank you so much for putting to words what made me uncomfortable with the Netflix Bridgerton series (I haven't read the books so I honestly can't comment there). I did know the rape scene really disturbed me because of it's consent issues, but there were other incidents that made me dissatisfied (episode 4 as you mentioned and some parts of the ending where they just smoothed everything over). Despite enjoying it, I still was put off and as a white femme I found myself unable to figure out why or put it properly to words. Having the problems put out there as you did was really helpful to me, as well as seeing it from another perspective that I wouldn't have the capacity to experience or understand and haven't been super well educated on. Thank you for your excellent perspective! Also, I know I'm 3 months and some change late for commenting but I just discovered your channel and really just wanted to express appreciation for your content.

[@kickinit7881]

JUST STARTED AND IM ALREADY SO HYPED!! i was hoping you’d do a video on the odd “progressivism” of this show, i got roped into watching a couple episodes (unfortunately lol) and it was striking how clunky it came off to me. it seems vaguely self-aware enough to try working against genre tropes, yet not self aware enough to do it in a truly meaningful way and left me real confused. interested to hear your take on it tho

[@dirtydove]

As always- chef's kiss! It is unnerving to find that Daphne does not get held accountable for her actions. It feels like an opportunity was lost. They could have expanded the convo about male survivors while also representing a marginalized person. I always gain more knowledge and perspective watching your videos. PS. I love the end theme 🎹🍿✨

[@hebbycakes]

You're super right though, King George III and Queen Charlotte's actual history is REALLY interesting and I've been reading about their family and lives and such and yeah, super interesting. I heard there's supposed to be a prequel to Bridgerton that focuses on Charlotte and George III but I'm also leaning back like "oh noooooooooooooooooooooooo they are gonna screw this up and make it really weird and WE FIXED RACISM THRU LOVE type BS aren't they" cause I remember while watching Bridgerton, I was like "YEAH, UH, GEORGE III WAS AGAINST ENDING SLAVERY... THIS IS EXTREMELY TONE DEAF"

[@emman486]

Something about this makes it my favorite video of yours I've watched! The music had me PUMPED, you looked great and the analysis was spot on as usual

[@dr.quinnzel7284]

"FILIPINO." okay you are officially my favorite youtuber

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Bridgerton is a romance novel TV series that is very indulgent and sincere and I like it. Bridgerton has problems, very big problems and they kind of need to be addressed. Actually, since they had that one exchange (you know the one), and that one scene (you definitely know the one), it invites this discussion and critical eye and no, it shouldn't get any prizes. Both are true, and the latter should be discussed more.

[@chillin5703]

I've been a nitpicky bum in the past about how you discuss issues of race/colorism, but i really loved this one. Tactfully and elegantly handled, thanks. Also, gorgeous hairdo; thanks for _always_ doing our hair justice

[@katherinealvarez9216]

11:15 I miss Still Starcrossed. Christ, why couldn’t it have one more season? Or just not end on a cliffhanger!?

[@FreyaEinde]

ABC sucks they always cancel their high concept fantasy shows in the first season I mourn Galavant and still Star Crossed. And before some chicken head comes at me with "What about Once Upon a Time ?"of course Disney's disaster of a fanfiction advertisement survived the usual cull people come out for disney/ marvel even if they don't like it.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

@@FreyaEinde Yes, OUAT. OUAT was the Regina show (No hate towards the actress, she was the one good thing) and have 7,000 plot threads and all told badly. This was especially true for S07 when they finally did a Cinderella that I was on board for!

[@FreyaEinde]

@@katherinealvarez9216 The truth!

[@predx13]

Thank you so much for remembering Richard Armitage. He deserves so much better. Like, he should be Batman. He should.

[@deaf-tomcat]

no one mentions The Great!!! There's BIPOC cast in the show in all sorts of "classes" with speaking roles and one of the main characters is BIPOC!!!! Also Nicholas Hoult is..................hot.

[@user-bj7em4fv1p]

Even though I am white when Bridgerton explained the presence of black people in powerful roles by simply saying “the king married one of us” I was like that’s all?? Thank you for your videos!

[@katherinealvarez9216]

9:04 yes. I’m sorry it could not be just the king and queen. Some major stuff had to be going on for this to happen. It’s a friggin miracle.

[@klaraodehnalova421]

I understand to an extend how the time period influences the story and how Daphne's actions seem less horrible in the context of the time period and the power imbalance of the marriage. But the book/show is being viewed by modern audiences and could thus address modern issues... Some people still don't believe that men can be raped by women (or they don't thing that it should be treated seriously) and the way it was glossed over in the show can kind of contribute to that. I also don't like how not wanting to have children is pretty much always portrait as wrong and how the person always changes their mind when they "meet the right person" get a bit older ... Like... some people just don't want kinds.

[@gysoran]

i don't know what bridgerton is let's GO

[@mariannes1457]

Getting this notification just made my day a whole lot better 😁

[@pinkertonbyweezer]

My spine was TINGLIN when you were reading from the book, keep this shit up!!

[@pinkertonbyweezer]

On this gay little night of mine, I raise my almost empty wine glass of cider to you, you are one of the best video makers to come out of my recommendeds in a long time.

[@elizabarry4]

When Quinn says interracial romances in the past need to be explained, I just think of the scene from Lincoln where Thaddeus Stevens goes home to his black wife (who wasn't legally his wife because of her race). You know how they explained that in the movie? They kiss and smile and snuggle up in bed. Of course Stevens is an abolitionist, but lots of people have had negative views of slavery and oppression throughout time of every race and every culture. It's not that hard to say "she abhorred that his race kept him apart and she loved him all the same." Done. Explained. I get her not wanting to write a character of an experience she doesn't know but it might be fun to try working with a co-writer or consultant to do it.