No-Twilight Hate Isn't Just Misogyny

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

I've only ever watched the movies, but I do remember it striking me as deeply un-self-aware that Bella is clearly supposed to have this kind of Outsider Angst where she Doesn't Fit In and Nobody Understands Her and then she's conventionally beautiful and immediately popular in school and all her friends love her (omg so exhausting to have these people fawning over her all the time) and her greatest dream is to be young and hot and heterosexually married to her high school sweetheart forever. like bella I am sorry you feel alone but you are the definition of conventional and the world was literally made to give you what you want -R

[@danimariafe]

I get your point but also is all about perception, bella didn't really see herself like that bc back in arizona she was invisible and also pale lmao

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

You can really taste the notes from the author's mormon background

[@thequietdreamer2186]

Same goes for the Michael Bay Transformers: the same lack of artistic self-awareness, made inexplicably popular by acts of mass stupidity.

[@kohhna]

@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721Indeed! Its the weird mormon shit thats the problem all day. As I've said elsewhere, in Twilight, as in vampire fiction in general the "blood kiss" is a very thinly veiled metaphor / substitution for another kind of fluid transfer, i.e. kissing, boning etc. The whole thing of the Twilight series, it's emotional core is the "will they, won't they" or specifically when does Edward get to finally "fully consumate the relationship" by turning Bella. And the answer is, after marraige, after they've been together literal years, after they save the world, after they have a kid and when the only alternative to not doing so is literal death. So yeah kids, thats when it's ok, and not before.

[@OspreySoul]

If Bella had just fallen for a normal guy, she would totally be one of those girls trying to get all of her friends on Facebook into whatever MLM she'd joined onto.

[@colormegrumpy]

How does Jasper function in a high school when a paper cut sends him into a blood-thirsty frenzy? Paper cuts, menstral blood, sports injuries, fist fights... Blood everywhere!

[@SPofSaturnProduction]

Yea seriously, how does he manage?

[@Homodemon]

God yeah!! A vampire in a school setting would be hell to conceal but I guess it comes with the plot of "oh Edward has enough self control in him but Bella's blood is super extra delicious and special, so of course it would send him and every other vampire into a frenzy from a mere whiff" I think so far the only vampire media I've read that has addressed how hellish the experience of becoming a vampire while still attending school, is a manga called Happiness by Oshimi Shuzo. Homeboy gets attacked one night and turned into a vampire without him realizing. And the entire week he's slowly turning and his instincts start kicking in, he really REALLY starts smelling blood everywhere in his school and breaking down in random bouts of fever and painful hunger pangs for reasons he doesn't understand, specially whenever he's close to girls which like, he suspects why, cus he can literally smell it... but he doesn't know he's literally a vampire yet so from his perspective he's slowly losing his mind and it terrifies him... It ends up being so debilitating physically he stops going to school completely after accidentally attacking a classmate in a literal frenzied state and sgit just goes downhill from there (btw, is an excelent manga, from the same author of Inside Mari and Flowers of Evil, totally recommend it, incredibly brutal though, but is an amazing Vampire centric manga that plays its horror and drama completely straight)

[@PetitPoneyDuVercors26]

As a teen I wondered why menstruation wasn't mentioned, and a solution exists too, the damn low dose pill that stops the periods, I was taking pill not for contraception as a teen (severe acne) I assumed it was just because the usa are bigoted, so no mention of any contraception even if it have several usages outside of preventing getting pregnant (As a french teen in the mid 2000's I had already the strong idea that usa were bigoted, anti americanism was there too in my country after irak invasion... it was strange all this fuss with flags the oath and stuff it's alien for me all this nationalism etc, here that was quite exclusive of the far right, sadly the overton window is exploding here too now... And I realised my country is bigoted in another way too even on the "left", like the islamophobia is so rampant... and the teen dramas with often pregnancies etc the no abortion mentioned...so strange, religion is way less important here, so teens getting abortion it's mostly shame and slutshaming and less "it's a sin", but that's not really better anyways, we need to stop shaming teens...)

[@biggestastiest]

imagine if his frenzy was triggered by vape clouds. dude would be having a terrible time.

[@PanEtRosa]

and for that matter, why the hell are vampires going to school in the first place? I'm probably forgetting some flimsy excuse in the books, 'cause it's been literally 15 years since I read one. but come on..... they're there to prey on kids. that's it. that's the only reason for them to be there.

[@bigeoof1804]

"Twilight is a deeply sexist book series teetering on wholesale misogyny except it is not competent enough to do so" is a hilariously accurate statement that I wasn't prepared for

[@fossilfighters101]

+

[@Haexxchen]

Just first hand experience of a Mormon society, where women are mothers and homemakers and nothing else really, unless you are horny in your dreams and decide to share that with the world..

[@lukeshioshio]

I feel like... people should just stop using the word "misogyny" at this point. Nah, the female writer isn't a misogynist she's just a cringe lady. Idk why everything has to be "hateful toward a group" like Jesus Christ it's so baseless. The writer is dumb, she doesn't hate her own sex.

[@garynaccarato4606]

You can certainly say that there is no examples of non heterosexual romance or what not and also that theres not really much if any emphasis on the theme of feminism but thats just good old fashioned conservative Christian and or LDS mentality on the part of the author for you.

[@carnespecter]

im native american and while im a different tribe from the quileutes i can never fully forgive twilight like other people are "reclaiming" it because of how meyer treated the quileutes. how she turned them into a fat joke and lie to the point where the tribe literally has a whole section of their website dedicated to combat the misinformation spread about their people because of her. i just cant get past that. i cant stand people who dont think critically about this thanks for the video!

@carnespecter, I hope it’s ok to ask, is there a (noticeable) difference in the treatment (or discrimination) of different Native American tribes? Sorry if it’s a stupid question, I’m from Europe so I don’t know a lot about it. What we tend to learn is about the treatment of Indigenous people as just one category, rather than about different tribes. Have different groups been treated differently in the past and now, is there still an obvious distinction between tribes? Thanks!

[@celestialcowboy8337]

​@Otroskikanal "Indigenous" has never been one category of people. There always have been and always will be obvious distinction between tribes. The problem is that racism depends on flattening those distinctions to make it easier to create a racial hierarchy (i.e. various European ethnic groups merged together in American society to create the near homogenous White identity so they could create a unified front to keep racial minorities from gaining power). It's easier to oppress indigenous peoples if you don't have to consider them as many different nations in themselves with vibrant cultures and strong sociopolitical structures. It's Whiteness vs. The Other.

[@raultrashlord4404]

Don't expect too much from a mormon

[@LeapThroughTheSky]

I'm thinking it's because she's Mormon since there's a whole thing in Mormonism where native Americans are considered to be demons.

[@lmeeken]

I am not Indigenous, but collaborate with Indigenous colleagues and research and teach about Indigenous concerns. Grain of salt and all that. But, in short, in North America/Turtle Island alone there are literally hundreds of Indigenous nations (present tense), spread across an enormous land mass that encountered different colonizers at different points in history, as well as lands with no recognized contemporary tribes because of genocide and displacement, whose original peoples have their own distinct histories with colonization, and distinct present experiences of settler colonialism and racism. Experiences vary, and political attitudes toward colonizers vary, wildly across different Indigenous communities.

[@aeolia80]

So I was an active Mormon when the books came out, and in real time there actually was some pushback from leaders of the church because they said the books were giving the women in the church unrealistic expectations of the men in their lives. Stephenie was writing her ideal men based off of the ideals in the religion, yes, but the church leaders and the married middle aged women in the church were realizing those ideals did not occur in real-life 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂, it was actually hilarious seeing it all play out in real time

[@KariIzumi1]

Oooh, this is interesting

[@HeavenlyEchoVirus]

I’ve always suspected it was indeed the fantasy version of the Mormon-values husband. You get the conservatism but also overwhelming romance. Not just the conservatism.

[@LittleMissLion]

​@@HeavenlyEchoVirusI was lucky to find a really great partner. It makes sense that we have both left the church now. We were both very dedicated to our beliefs, but neither of us ever fully fit in. I can see now it's not a bad thing *at all* that my partner just couldn't fit in with the other men.

[@Lei-AICPhD]

Now this is the story I’d love to know!

[@rachelb4339]

As someone who was not Mormon but lived in Salt Lake City at the height of the books it was wild to see my classmates and adult superiors (almost all who were Mormon )go wild for these books and feel incredibly guilty for liking them. I didn’t have the culture context they did to feel the same and mostly felt nonchalantly about the books. It was a wild time.

[@timothymclean]

If people criticize Stephanie Meyer but give Michael Bay a pass, that's probably misogyny. But a lot of people criticizing Stephanie Meyer also criticize Michael Bay. Context is important for judging everything, including judgement.

[@waywardmind]

Well said

[@claudiabcarvalho]

Thank you! I always use Transformers and Michael Bay to argue against people who say Twilight should be banned because it's bad writing. That said, it's so frustrating trying to educate people that they're wrong for hating Twilight because of their internalized misogyny, just so I can tell them that it'd be better for them not to enjoy Twilight because of misogyny and racism.

[@StormTheeOmega]

O u ate that!

[@marielozoria]

hmm i see what you mean, but i also wonder if there can be some defense of michael bay, in that he is able to competently use all the cinematic techniques and tools at his disposal to portray his vision. michaal bay is a misogynist, but he's also a competent director. stephanie meyer is a bad writer and the misogyny just comes as a byproduct of the bland white nonsense that is twilight (if you're unconvinced lindsay ellis's michael bay auteur theory videos are worth a watch)

[@setofreakinkaiba8553]

​@marielozoria just because he is a good director who can showcase his misogyny doesn't excuse it. It isn't even a good defense.

[@scott2k23]

The most interesting female characters in the movies are Rosalie and Leah. Both where labeled as bitches but suffered the most in the movies because of the men in their lives. I wondered what kind of message Stephanie Meyer was sending when she did that? 🤔

[@perrisavallon5170]

I fucking loved Leah when I first read the books. In hindsight I think I was attached to her because she's the closest thing to a queer character that we ever got (in the sense that as a werewolf, she was stuck with a typically "masculine" aspect about her identity despite being a woman. like if twilight werewolves were real i'd totally say female werewolves are welcome in the queer community, fuck it, lgbtw+)

[@thequietdreamer2186]

The kind associated with suburban Mormon lunacy, it seems.

[@LadyAhro]

I went down a mini rabbit hole of Leah centric spitefics a while back and definitely felt that she really deserved her own story by a better author

[@perrisavallon5170]

@@LadyAhro Tbh this is true for like half of the characters in Twilight

[@angelofpurity1992]

Leah deserved better.

[@koshetz]

As someone who went from twillight enjoyer to twillight hater to not caring about twillight i think "the book recieved tons of hate because of misogyny" and "the book has tons of conservative narratives and is mediocre" conversations should not exclude each other. Good video, as always.

[@Princess_Weekes]

Exactly and thank you for watching x

[@koshetz]

@@Princess_Weekes you are welcome! Love your work 😍

[@BrokensoulRider]

I... sadly still read the books and watch the movies because, while they *are* bad for people, it's sadly a decent read (at least to me) now and then when I just want to shut off my brain and pretend for a while.

[@LittleMissLion]

​@@Princess_WeekesI'm really glad you said this at the start. I wish society was more comfortable with multiple things being true at once.

[@animeotaku307]

@@BrokensoulRiderNothing wrong with that. I still read this other series even though it has a ton of problems with how it portrays women.

[@EricaCalman]

"The stakes are so low they have apple-bottom jeans and boots with the furs" lol that's an insult so good that I am definitely stealing/propagating it.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

I laughed pretty hard at that line.

[@acecat2798]

Princess cannot just drop that and move on like she didn't just make my world axis shift

[@lafken2]

Can someone explain this joke for the people (me, I'm people) who lack context?

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@lafken2 It's from a Flo Rida song from 2007. Called Low.

[@Karin-fj3eu]

For some reason I only got it now

[@lukaj679]

The more I learned about Mormon culture, the more the issues in Twilight made sense

[@Romanticoutlaw]

as someone who grew up in a town where anyone who wasn't a mormon was very quiet about that fact, learning meyer is one was a huge lightbulb moment for me lol. Like "ooooohhhhh that explains a LOT"

[@BabaCorva]

This is it right here.

[@NataliaNNS]

I thought the exact same thing! An essay like this but analyzing the Mormon influences on the story would be really interesting

[@lukaj679]

@@NataliaNNS I have been wishing and dreaming for this exact thing. I need a queer ex Mormon who knows twilight to get on it. I would literally pay for it.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@lukaj679 I am all of the above but I wouldn't want to film it myself. I could totally write it though.

[@scott2k23]

The real problem with Twilight is racism and glorification of colonization with quileute tribes.

[@nerdtubewtf]

indeed, it's all of it. The misogyny is common in a lot of romance yet racism made it so much worse. I did indeed read this series and the fan fic series. Like the opening, I too found some escape cuz I was dealing with life dealing issues and it's nice to escape for a bit. When you're in a shite ton of physical pain, you really need a light escape. I also wanted to see what the deal was about. I didn't ever want to judge without reading. I've come to Ms. Weekes conclusion a decade or so later. TL;DR it's all of it in totality

[@balthasardenner5216]

The real problem is that it sucks

[@GatekeeperGuardian-wv3cd]

Yeah, I remember being a bit uncomfortable with the implication that American Indians are just born spousal abusers. Despite Stephanie Meyer being Mormon, I like to think the implication wasn't intentional, but it sure was interesting to see that implication there.

[@emiliobustamante2401]

The fact that Twilight made SMeyers a really wealthy woman but the quilleute people have never - and will never - see a single cent from her is really damming

[@DetNate]

@@emiliobustamante2401 Real talk. Helping out the Quileute with some money would be the least Meyer could do after the disastrous representation of them she did.

[@MMoturi22]

I really remember the "Twilight ruined vampires" stuff like it was yesterday lol. "Why does he sparkle in the sunlight that's so gay." Yes, dude. Because vampire fiction has a storied history of being VERY straight, VERY fixated with traditional masculinity and marketed PRIMARILY to male audiences.

[@ary3901]

If anything, twilight "vampires" are the straightest out there

[@EbonyPenmarks]

We need to cut flack to the legitimate vampire fans though- the problem for vampire fans was not "that's so gay.' It was 'Ah man, these vampires are not nocturnal," thus the rest of the world-building is lost- no nocturnal bisexual vampires going to the opera

[@MMoturi22]

@@ary3901 FAXX

[@MMoturi22]

@@EbonyPenmarks Billy and Mandy's Dracula is the only valid non nocturnal vampire.

[@darkservantofheaven]

Um....Blade? ​@@MMoturi22

[@aconstantstateofbladerunne5251]

As someone who’s been called a “pick-me” to my face because I don’t love Colleen Hoover or SJM books, I needed this. I think a lot of popular romance writers and readers have internalized that “not everyone can be a slayer” ethos so hard that it seems like some of them see traditional femininity as a prerequisite for feminism. And as much as I’ve loved the new jokes out of the Twilight Renaissance, nothing that did what this series did to Leah Clearwater deserves to even be on the same continent as what’s considered feminist.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

the thing with colleen hoover is that if she'd just frame her stories as psychological horror, she'd be golden. But the full-chested, unironic, un-self-aware embracing of the horror she creates as "romance"... You'd almost have to be a pick-me to *like* her work

[@degeneratemilkhater5696]

Insane to call someone a pick me for not liking SJM books aren't all of her protagonists pick mes?

[@Dragonshade64]

@@degeneratemilkhater5696 Probably, it reads like the same characters and gender essentialism over and over again. However, I got bored about 20% of the way through Empire of Storms and have never read ACoTAR because of it.

[@ladyredl3210]

And it’s also just as sexist, just in the opposite direction. Real women, actual women I mean, are neither a slayer, nor a passive fainting victim. They’re people, with individual strengths and weaknesses.

[@juliarush111]

Fellow non-lover of Colleen Hoover, SJM and Stephanie Meyers here 👋 Leah deserves her own story so bad. But-and I can not stress this enough- not written by Stephanie Meyer. I so desperately want to read the moment that she pulls out of her depression over Sam. Because what he did to her was horrible, but it was again SM putting her Mormon flare on her trauma by having her described as a harpy and feeling like her life was over. I want so bad for her to come to terms with her lycanthropy and moving the f on from toxic Sam and Emily.

[@harrisonpeterson3733]

It's also about Mormonism. Just straight up Mormonism. The sexism, the racism, the conservative values, it's all from Myers Mormon upbringing. I say this as an ex-mormon, this series is the near perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with that religion.

[@TacticusPrime]

Oh yeah. The entire central metaphor of Edward's vampirism is Mormon/Evangelical sexuality. He wants Bella with insane desperation (men are monsters who inherently want sex all the time) but he has superhuman self-control who would never "take advantage" of her (drink her blood / have sex with her) until they are married.

[@otakuinred]

It's honestly wild from an exmo standpoint. I was never into it when it came out, but looking back so much makes sense. So much.

[@lexa2310]

​@@TacticusPrimeI think you are interpreting too much into that. There are also female vampires, some of which are just as bloodthirsty.

[@lexa2310]

I just read in a different thread that Meyers got flag from her own church for creating unrealistic expectations for mormon women regarding men. 🤣

[@erinfee5104]

As a lesbian I've always felt a little isolated when Twilight and similar media is defended from the angle of "this thing is by women and FOR women, so if you dislike it you're either a man or a pick-me."

[@PhotonBeast]

Yeah, framing it as either for/against women turns 'women' into a monolith . Like... something can be made by X with the intention of being for X, but that doesn't demand or require all X to approve of it or like it. Like one wouldn't say "This cajun seasoned shrimp platter was made by an American for Americans if yo don't like it, you're anti-American." and expect that to be a strong argument.

[@samf.s.7731]

As whatever the heck I am, genuinely don't know yet, I agree 😅 Definitely spoke to a lot of people, but not me... I did feel isolated, it did feel crappy. That was very rare though, I usually want to enjoy "stuff" and give into the hype rather easily.

[@sorintschetter1387]

@@skepticalpanda8862 what do you mean? almost all fiction has moral messages lmao. Tortoise and the hare anyone, this shit is literally elementary.

[@Waspinmymind]

@@skepticalpanda8862No one’s doing that here bucko.

[@Ash-yu2cj]

Thank you for commenting on this because a lot of media made “for women” is incredibly isolating to me. Media “for women” is often about and for thin, feminine, heterosexual, and ofc, white women.

[@nikoking825]

Another troubling trope in these books is the "Indians are Magic," stereotypes. From "Indian Burials Grounds" to legends about Shamans and "spirit journeys" there remains this colonialist tendency to see Native Americans as "magical" or even "quasi mythical" and you know not real cultures that have pushed to near extinction but are still regarded as "exotic" and packaged to titillate the colonizers.

[@derek96720]

Any movie that takes place in North America has to use natives as the magical people, because European spirituality only has historical roots in Europe. They even acknowledge this in the movie, with vampires being based in Rome and the shapeshifters (wolves) being from the US. You're seeing racism where there is really only common sense. Moreover, shapeshifters feature far more prominently in native American mythology than in western European mythology.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

Because when white people are magical it's just Angel's and God. And those aren't Magic. Theyr miracles obviously Completely different lol

[@animeotaku307]

Yup. And to make things worse, the books’ explanations for how vampires work is grounded in “science.” With quotes because it’s very shoddy. Still, the predominantly white group having detailed scientific reasons for how they work while the brown people get “idk it’s just magic” definitely has some implications.

[@TRaWi]

Well, because, they are magic. Or at least they were once. Their spirituality is magick-based, pagan, telluric, polytheist, extra-corporeal, based in souls, totems, elementals, divination and energies; only people who still believe in the Medieval Theory of Witches feel the need to exoticise or not aboriginal religions, or actually any paganism as a fact, as separate, therefore perhaps less valid, than other, more stabilished, religions. Of course indigenous people have the right to follow other, mainstream, churches or to be atheists or gnostics or whatever they wish, but it's only reasonable to suppose that in a group striving to keep their ancient culture, most people will be pagans. Now you may thank your Ranting Witch here.

[@brittanyrevia2542]

It makes sense that the Twilight Renaissance should be followed by the Twilight Enlightenment. Thanks, Princess!

[@zainmudassir2964]

Twilight revolution next

[@dublinjake]

@@zainmudassir2964 But that brings us ever closer to the Twilight Pax Britannica!

[@emilyrln]

The Entwilightenment? 😅

[@yvaincallipso84]

The Quileute Tribe where done so dirty by that woman. She not only perpetuated so many racial stereotypes, but she completely ignored their established culture and beliefs and just... made up her own for them. It would have been only slightly better if she'd just made up a tribe instead of saddling these poor people with the job of explaining their real culture to the misinformed world over and over and over again. Also the creepy age stuff. Like when Jacob falls in love with a literal baby (but it's totally OK, she's an adult in like 3 years)

[@gwathgor]

Tbh Jacob isn't even the case that always bothered me the most - sure, that whole thing with half-vampires maturing faster feels like such a handwave and it's all still weird and creepy af, but, you know, at least there's *some* sort of excuse, however half-baked. And also, Renesmee is still a supernatural creature capable of crushing rocks with bare hand as a toddler, with a whole family of even stronger supernatural beings, some with powers, and an f-ton of money - if she decided she actually doesn't want to get involved with that older guy she knew since being a baby, she could definitely fight against it and have a way out. Quil and Claire, tho... 😬

[@thedeliveryboy1123]

people say stuff like "if you hate twilight you're a man or a pickme!" when they could also be a self respecting person of color lmaoooo

[@lainiwakura1776]

She comes a from a religion trying to claim American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel, or something like that, so yeah...

[@ember9361]

@@gwathgor still a baby, still weird

[@Shadowfate93]

Jacob looses autonomy when he imprinted. They all do. They loose the ability to choose. They become brainwashed and obsessed against their will. Jacob hated the concept of imprinting.

[@DMAnemone]

The thing that annoys me the most about people crying "death of the author," aside from them not understanding the intention of the essay that coined the phrase, is their misunderstanding that it's a critical lens. Just like queer theory or structuralism, it's something we can use when interpreting a text. So if someone is critiquing the author's intent or bias in a text, crying death of the author is just asinine. It's like yelling that the sky is blue during a conversation about mitochondria or something. Like yeah, we know, but that's not what we're talking about right now. It's just ignorant foolishness used in bad faith to shut other people down and make them feel like they won the conversation somehow.

[@Abcdefg-tf7cu]

Most people who learn about media critique from the internet have nonidea what a "lens" is. They just read a post on Tumblr about symbolism in something they haven't read/watched, and automatically believe it. Someone only having one lens that they analyze media through is a telltale sign that the person grew up just repeating the "correct" opinion on social media. It is the socialization of being a teacher's pet.

[@morlath4767]

The "death of the author" concept - at least in general usage outside - has splintered since that essay. Or rather, it's gotten to the point where most people (myself included) use it more for the idea of ignoring the author's intention/history side of the argument and almost completely ignoring the part about readers bringing their own interpretations into it. In my opinion, the reason why is two fold: 1 - The constant rise of post-work additions via author blogs, interviews, Director's Cuts, etc, has utterly mutated the concept of a story's "Word of God." An author can (and some often do) post hoc rewrite parts of their stories on a whim. There are three obvious examples - JK Rowling's near obsessive releases of world building that can and does influence the way people read the books (Dumbledore is gay, the name's of Harry's Potter grandparents, the names of Hermione's parents); George Martin's similar (albeit smaller) release of information/his opinions in interviews and blogs; and an interview by George Lucas that has effectively locked in the concept of what the Force is to most of the Star Wars fandom despite every piece of media he's had a hand in borderline going against this very same author "intended" interpretation. 2 - Modern criticism and discussions of works often include the "lens" that the second part to The Death of the Author. This video essay itself includes the lines "as black readers, or black people in general..." in reference to Sarah j. Maas' works. Perhaps I'm merely projecting, but I see Death of the Author as being something used by people to fight against retroactive rewriting of a work via Word of God statements. Whether that be from tweets, interviews, blogs, or what have you. That is, if character X is supposed to be a tragic hero, then it's down to the author to at the very least hint at this rather than write them as a total asshole who gets redeemed after the fact when the author doesn't like people attacking said character.

[@Abcdefg-tf7cu]

@@morlath4767 People like you are proof that Tumblr has destroyed all media. That part where you basically admit that you don't believe in redemption arcs really confirms all my biases.

[@morlath4767]

@@Abcdefg-tf7cu That's an... interesting interpreation of my post.

[@Abcdefg-tf7cu]

@@morlath4767 Well like you said, the author is dead, so there is no way for me to misinterpret anything you say. I got chills when you started making those coded confessions to your crimes at Unit 731. I don't need to take any of your personal history into account, so you being born after 1945 can't refute my claim that you are a war criminal who conducted human experiments.

[@simonetimer5776]

This is a real breath of fresh air! As a black femme, I couldn't articulate the itch seeing every other analysis give Twilight a pass by deeming criticism of it misogynistic while conveniently ignoring the blatant, unforgivable racism (among other things). It made me feel so alienated and like I was losing my mind - I had so many criticisms as someone who read all the books as a teen then-girl. The way white critics were willing to not even consider the racism as more than a "minor problem" really disturbed me. So thank you, thank you for giving a voice to this.

[@IvellScarlett]

There was a lot of misogyny in the vitriol directed at Twilight when the movie came out, but I feel like we really overcorrected for that. The pendulum swinging in the opposite direction isn't a good response. There is a lot and I mean a lot, to criticise about Twilight.

[@animeotaku307]

Just a matter of getting it into the middle, where we can call out the misogyny in 90% of the hate the series got AND the legitimate issues the series has, which also includes misogyny.

[@nviz47]

Well put! Agreed!😊

[@nviz47]

The misogyny has layers (even within examples! 😬🙃) And there's even YIKES bits for sexism generally too (re sexual pressuring/sexual assault - Ive commented somewhere else but besides the more known examples ofc with Bella and Book-2 onwards Jacob, and the grooming, and consent issues EVERYWHERE there's even one for Edward arguably being the victim; iirc with Tanya, one of the Denali, having a history of barraging him with sexually explicit imaginings of the two of them whenever he comes to stay, because she knows he can't block her and no one else can hear, and how she physically corners him/trys to pressure him...and has rejected his 'no's' and requests to stop, too.... So. 😅even Edward, an observably abusive, manipulative character is the recipient in at least one instant of this crap).

[@ethcal3195]

​@nviz47 And BELLA kept whining and nagging him for sex isn't respecting the FRIES of consent, either...

[@animeotaku307]

@@ethcal3195 She straight up would have assaulted him if he didn’t have vampire strength

[@Athena-vs4cv]

The Rosalie and Leah storylines definitely send the message "We can acknowledge women's suffering, just as long as they shut up about it as soon as possible afterwards and carry on". Because Rosalie and Leah don't, the disdain and hostility they face in the series is quite frankly disturbing, whereas "perfect" Bella, having had her heart broken by Edward and suffering all sorts of emotional abuse at his hands, quickly lets it go when he deigns to pick things up with her again. Not a great message to send to young people...

[@courtneythompson6179]

Whenever I think about Edward getting mad at Jacob for hurting Bella I bitterly think, “Yeah, only you are allowed to do that.”

[@Athena-vs4cv]

@@courtneythompson6179 So true!

[@courtneythompson6179]

@@Athena-vs4cv I hate him so much!

[@benjamintillema3572]

13:05 Just imagine being Kristen Stewart in this situation: running around barefoot in the woods over, and over, and over again. You're trying not to crash into your costar, ignoring the pain in your feet, all while trying to look carefree and happy. Imagine how many times she had to hide behind that tree. They both look so done in this shot, and this is the take that they went with. This is the best they could get.

[@cloeshay87]

I WAS FIXATED ON THAT THANK YOU FOR ALSO NOTICING, it drove me crazy that must have been so painful

[@sindhusekar1918]

To be fair, she is wearing some form of flat footwear. She's not barefoot.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

I really do feel like the Twilight books could have worked if they were just more honest and self-aware enough to allow Bella to be a selfish person. She wants to be immortal because she wants to be with her hot vampire husband forever and is willing to cutoff her mortal family who aren't presented as bad people to do it nevermind being willing to run the risk of murdering people in a blood frenzy. One of the reasons why something like Lisa Frankenstein works is because that movie was willing to make its main lead unlikable and explore why she is that way.

[@mmck2565]

They did so that. Thats exactly how 80-95% of all teenagers act and I feel like every decision both Bella and Edwards made was giving teenager with no chill.

[@paulgibbon5991]

For all the books allude to Wuthering Heights, that regularly calls out what a horrible person Heathcliff is, and how destructive his obsession with Cathy is to everyone around them.

[@dinosaur___7209]

well tbh I do think that bella was clearly a parentified child who, while her parents were nice, had parents who weren't competant. Particularly her mom, who she had to mother herself.

[@SecretTwilightGirl]

Totally agree! However, I think Bella really downplays how bad her parents are. She started paying the household bills at the age of ten because Renee kept forgetting to do it and takes it upon herself to cook and clean for her grown father because he can’t even make pasta without burning down the house. If I were Bella, I’d want to abandon my parent-rearing duties and run off with my hot immortal boyfriend too.

[@shayla106]

@@SecretTwilightGirlCharlie survived years taking care of himself. She don’t have to do those things, she did them because that’s what she’s used to doing. Again, her parents were not perfect but they don’t deserve having their daughter just disappear one day.

[@scott2k23]

Not only the movie themselves was terrible but the casting process was also an issue. Taylor Lautner wasn’t originally casted to play Jacob, a native character another actor was. And that actor was kristopher hyatt he supposed to play Jacob but refused to cut his hair for obvious reasons and they casted a non Native actor.

[@TheMightyPika]

whoah i wasn't aware of that!

[@mossmother64]

It’s also interesting that Jacob’s on-screen/ perceived “glow up” it a result of him cutting his hair. I think you can kind of see what messaging that sends. Especially with his character ending the series becoming “civilized” by this white family. It’s colonization all over again. Terrible :(

[@KariIzumi1]

OH WOW that's so much worse??? Why the hell should he have needed to cut it?! Surely wings still exist in Hollywood, no?

[@shadowmaster1313]

​@mossmother64 Now it's so weird to me that the werewolves cut their hair. Especially since they apparently identify more with being native after the change

[@PetitPoneyDuVercors26]

​@@shadowmaster1313 Yeah that's strange... Nowhere it is explained why Like if the lenght of fur was linked to the length of hair maybe it could explain cutting it during heat waves etc but no need to cut everything anyways and that's a crappy idea to have them cut their hair period

[@MademoiselleRed1390]

Rosalie being a villanized blonde to brunette Bella, when Meyer herself is a brunette suggest a mysogynistic inferiority complex over blonde women on her part.

[@TychoKingdom]

Stretch! Projection! Rosalie is Blonde because she is the steryotipical all american Blonde bombshell.This why i dont take you twi-haters seriously. Face your internalized Misogyny.

[@lakegroce685]

Justice for Leah Clearwater. She deserved so much better than what she was given in this series. Also I was just reminded of how Sam and Emily got together. She literally didn’t want to hurt her cousin, so she tells him no. He gets so mad at her, he transformers and attacks(giving her that scar) but then he just apologizes once, she forgives him and they get together. Just absolutely disgusting and awful.

[@jlouisa]

I remember and still have this old fanfiction where Leah joins up with the boys from Supernatural and that story was amazing.

[@sp.2778]

THANK YOU!!! Leah should’ve been given her own series/book that would’ve been far more interesting. The only female werewolf in the tribe? I mean come onnn

[@LadyAhro]

There's a few great Leah spitefics I've seen around.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Yes.

[@lakegroce685]

@@LadyAhro I’m sorry there are Leah spitefics? That sounds amazing

[@worldsbiggestholdthegirlfan]

Watching the What we do in the Shadows and Interview with the vampire tv show made me realize I don’t hate vampire media, I hate straight vampire media

[@vs6584]

True Blood (where the majority of vamps are bi so I wouldn't call it straight necessarily) is heteronormative vampire media done right.

[@XxBarbyChanxX]

EDIT: Now that I've watched the full video, I'm so happy you addressed all my issues with the series, thank you for another great and thoughtful analysis. Justice for Leah and Rosalie! I'm excited to watch this. Before I do, I wanna say that I think the main issue is that all the valid criticism against Twilight back in the day (calling out the racism, misogyny, abusive relationships, all the bullsh*t with imprinting, lack of any gay vampires, and so on) was buried and it just became "hahaha dumb sparkling vampires".

[@haileyharmon5298]

Facts!

[@Legba85]

“Dumb sparkling vampires.” I started reading Twilight for my niece because she was interested. At first, I noticed the bad writing (god awful actually) and the horrible design of the vampires in it. Then I started noticing the abusive & controlling behavior Edward exhibiting as well as the stalking. I told my niece not to read it. It was a book that should’ve never been made period.

[@corbanekarel3692]

@@Legba85 A lot of people like escaping into a world where they don't have responsibility (because the power is given to someone else). And the fantasy of a man so enamored with you he's getting creepy is fun to some . . . as a FANTASY. My issue with Twilight was never that the tropes in it are abuse, more so that it was heavily advertised and sold to twelve year olds who have no clue what a normal or functional relationship is. Like I've had girls my age explain they got abused and thought it was normal because Twilight. Mind you, in a world where kids are explained what is or isn't abuse to the extent they can understand, this might not have been as much of an issue.

[@korilloyd6004]

One of my parents works getting justice for victims of dv. They used twilight to teach me about red flags and abuse. I can’t enjoy the stories at all to this day

[@Maria-iv8te]

yess thats what i came here to say lol fans know whats wrong with twilight but haters only know about the romantic aspects which is the least troubling thing about it

[@10puppyluv]

I was doing a rewatch of Twilight with my friends and I off handedly mentioned that the Quileute Tribe was a real tribe and one of my friends who went through the original twilight popularity with me had absolutely no idea it was a real tribe. IMO this really speaks to how much when this series first came out they wanted to hide the fact that Stephanie used an actual Native American Tribe in her book series

[@trinaq]

My main problem is that all of the supporting characters come across as far more interesting compared to the three leads, though we barely get a look in at their stories.

[@tariqthomas9090]

Rosalie’s story ALONE deserved her own book😂

[@scott2k23]

Exactly! How the hell did she manage to make the most interesting characters with backgrounds that deserve more exploration. But instead she decided to make the movie surrounding the MOST BORING BLAND WHITE COUPLE TO HIT THE SCREEN.

[@sophiemoya6114]

@@tariqthomas9090 So does Leah Clearwater, probably one of the best characters in this entire franchise!

[@Giraplatina]

Them not getting a lot of screentime is probably why they manage to be more interesting. They have a fun pitch and no details, so we can just imagine the details as being actually well-written

[@lindseystein9676]

Yeah I definitely agree. The vulturi vampires, the not Bella & Edward cullens and the Leah Clearwater could have each been a book on their own. Far more interesting than the main characters

[@michaellauritano5252]

I love the conclusion of this essay. We definitely need to destigmatize healthy media criticism. It’s just another way of engaging with a work that can be just as fulfilling as mindlessly enjoying it. Thanks for another great video!

[@mmck2565]

Un fortunately I don’t think it’ll happen because the misogyny and pick me ness will always be louder. So criticism even the healthy kind is like throwing salt on an opened continuously gouged at wound. It’s the “ only give advice to those who asked you for it” thing. Just my thoughts on why people still don’t care to hear or watch an hour worth of this is why what you like sucks/falls short. I mean who wants to hear that for an hour 😂🤷🏽‍♀️

[@Owesomasaurus]

"The unexamined text is not worth reading" some old guy probably

[@gota7738]

It's definitely something that's not been helped by the role of algorithms. More and more I've clicked on a video, and the creator is regurgitating a simplified argument on a trending topic in hyperbolic terms. It's not that the nuanced thoughts like Princess's videos aren't out there, but for channels prioritising growth; there's an incentive to churn out, alarmist or emotionally heightened arguments that play to one side of a controversy. It's always a relief when you find someone new speaking thoughtfully.

[@wombat4583]

There's a fine line. Media analysis in general is very fulfilling and engaging, but I will admit that as much as I defend and promote it, there is a large sub group of people who will claim media criticism to make personal attacks and harass people, and that's not what criticism is for. It's led to a point where people get attacked for engaging with criticism because readers now assume intent with critique as personal attacks, people still use critique to bash and harass readers, and people critiquing faithfully to the content to pretend everyone is engaging faithfully and with respect.

[@TychoKingdom]

​@K.C-2049 Twilight fans already do this. Not all but enough for this circle jerk yall have going on to be actually insane.

[@BrigitteEmpire]

This is the KZbin comment section of a killer, Bella

[@KaidenZvek]

I'm dead

[@dananash4375]

The fact that Ms Stephanie ACTUALLY wrote Jacob imprinting on a NEWBORN baby fresh out the VAJOO is weirder than a MF. ANNNDDD since I didn’t read the 4th book stopped mid 2nd book, if Rosalie couldn’t have a baby, then how come the dead ass Edward could make one. She just really wanted to get a pregnancy in there somewhere.

[@josephdavis9234]

Yep. Canonically, it's only female vampires who are sterile. In addition to Edward having a kid with human Bella, we also learn near the end of the book that there's a vampire named Joham who's just... going around impregnating human women because he apparently thinks vampire/human hybrids are the new master race (I can't think of a better way to word that).

[@maybemablemaples2144]

​@@josephdavis9234 jfc eugenics too?

[@siennaforrester2166]

​@@josephdavis9234 what in the nick cannon-

[@lainiwakura1776]

He imprinted on the egg, actually... which, um, I have no words for.

[@superherofan9425]

@@lainiwakura1776 and this is why I think Stephanie was a coward because if he imprinted on the egg and suddenly had big hots for Bella he also should have imprinted on the sperm and had the hots for Edward too until the honeymoon lol

[@satellitemind333]

Oh thank God. I've been so annoyed by how people have been handwaving the genuine critiques about this series and doing very lazy "You're Wrong About Twilight" analyses. I *was* a teen girl who enjoyed teen girl stuff when Twilight came out and these books got under my skin at the time for the exact same reason that my school's sexist abstinence-only speaker infuriated me (among other issues in the series). Enjoy the books! I don't care! But let's not play games and pretend there aren't actual problems that people were pointing out at the time!

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

The whole vampire soulmate and werewolf imprinting shit feels like a really insecure thing that a teenager would put into their story. "No one could love me without supernatural magic or I'm horrified of the possibility of being cheated on." Which once again could be interesting if there was some kind of analysis of that but nope.

[@paulgibbon5991]

It is quite a handy way of fast-forwarding the relationship and skipping the whole getting to know and trust each other thing. They're just magically obsessed with and / or horny for each other as soon as they meet! Thinking of it, I'd like to see a take on that where a couple are bonded to OTHER people, but their love for each other is enough to override that unnatural compulsion.

[@Chasityolaf]

Yea I was obsessed with those on wattpad when I was in middle school lol

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

The Cullens being married but pretending to be siblings gives me the ick big time. It’s indirect incest-y vibes and I just haaaaate that

[@StrawberryCakeStudiosYT]

Like none of them like ever did a fake cute meet? That’s what kinda Lowkey bugged me. Could’ve worn contacts. Would’ve made the story more plausible.

[@jaxj968]

@@StrawberryCakeStudiosYTthey could’ve worn contacts, but they’d have to be replacing them all the time. Bella, when she had to pretend to be human in front of her father in the books, had to wear contacts, and the vampire acid in her body, in her eyes, would burn them up after a bit. i guess it might be easier for them not to spend so much money on contacts, however rich they are.

[@justabluelilicon526]

“Not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment” is a perfect way to put it

[@animeotaku307]

God, I remember reading Das Mervin’s tear down of the Twilight saga. Made my dislike of the series go from shallow pick-me reasons to “why aren’t people talking about these legitimate issues” dislike. Not hate, not anymore; hate requires energy and care, which I’m too exhausted to muster up for books like these like I used to.

[@Silvermoon424]

Omg Das Mervin's sporking of Twilight is incredible!! I'm totally the same as you, I went from "vampires don't sparkle >:(" to "oh wow, this series actually is pretty creepy and problematic"

[@aconstantstateofbladerunne5251]

That blog was a huge contributing factor to my passion for and ability to so serious in-depth critical analysis. I didn’t like Twilight and similar books from that time to begin with, but the sporking gave me the language and know-how to express why.

[@TheAppocalyptor]

DAS MERVIN IS A LEGEND!

[@KariIzumi1]

True, the idea of vampires merely sparkling in the sun is the absolute ass end least of that series' problems

[@stampede274]

Stephanie Meyer's biggest mistake was not keeping going. After New Moon Bella should've fallen in love with a gill man, a Frankenstein, a mummy... just tedious mopey mormoncore romancing her way through the entire universal monster catalog and ending up with the Phantom of the Opera or something.

[@cindys9491]

Why not Cthulhu lol

[@venuslove-i1v]

@@cindys9491 That's too on the racist nose ha ha

[@catsmom129]

Maybe a Vogon could read her some romantic poetry

[@Silvermoon424]

I've never read Twilight, but I used to obsessively read Das Mervin's chapter takedowns of the entire series. Something I remember them pointing out is how, when POC become vampires, they become extremely pale- only a vague olive undertone in their skin denotes that the vampire used to be a person of color. Supposedly this is because the blood leaves the body after death/vampirism, but melanin doesn't just disappear like that lmfao

[@andiman44]

Meyer also notes that it’s the vampires pale appearance that makes them so beautiful…can you say yikes? 😬

[@holliebrokaw3716]

I feel like this might be the most mormon thing in the books. Ie. Converts (vampires) turning "white and delightsom"

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Sup another Das Mervin fan!

[@sporeloid]

Anne Rice did something vaguely similar in her vampire chronicles which always bothered me. Ancient vampires who were people of color originally, most notably the vampire queen Akasha, are described as having porcelain white skin just because... the melanin faded away after a long time or something? I guess??

[@phoneman-xs3ft]

And thats why blade will always be a better vampire movie

[@LilMommaSunshine7]

A fanfiction centered on an adult Renesmee and her Aunt Leah who’s helping her run away from her weird family and creepy uncle Jacob. It popped into my head while watching this video and I just hope that it exists out there somewhere

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

40:33 one of the most heartbreaking things about the twilight boom and it spawning tourism and the like is that for the longest time the Quiliuete (idk how to spell this) saw NONE of this, for the longest time Forks had a booming economy from tourism, but they did not. They didn’t have people coming to try their food or listen to their stories etc. for so long. And people on reservations have to deal with a LOT of economic bullshit so they COULD have gotten this, they COULD have gotten more revenue and visitors and people wanting to learn about them as people, but… for so long they just didn’t.

[@derek96720]

Pretty sure they could have easily monetized visits to La Push if they wanted to, just like Forks did. It's their rez, so who's to blame for them not drawing in tourists? Because I know for a fact that La Push was an "it" destination for the twilight tourists.

[@AuntyKsTarot]

Most Indigenous communities don’t want white tourists - actively work to get rid of white tourists because their money isn’t worth the damage and racism they bring. My opinion is based on me being Lakota

[@StormTheeOmega]

Coming from a literal twi-hard(blk gay one)I love when people criticize the books,cuz wdym we could’ve had a diverse set of cullens,wdym vampires eventually loose all there melanin over time? Wdym there aren’t any African racially black covens? Something ain’t adding up.

[@perrisavallon5170]

I've found that Twilight fans are waaaay better at criticizing Twilight than the weird Twilight hate mob from back in the day. Most of the Twilight fans I interact with are always quick to jump on the confederate vampire plotline, the way the Quileutes are written, the way the Quileutes are treated behind the scenes, the age gap, the Renesmee, everything. But the people who made it their whole personality to hate Twilight were always just like "sparkly vampires gay lmao"

[@lookitskatiex]

The confederate thing kills me to this day. Like… she couldn’t have made him a union soldier? Maybe that he was drafted and didn’t want to participate if he was in the confederate army? Or even if he was just ashamed of it later? It’s too much to ask for I guess. Ugh. Even tvd had the sense to at least make Damon a deserter, jfc.

[@claudiabcarvalho]

​@@lookitskatiex to be fair, the Salvatore are actual Italians in the books, but I think they took everything to the US in order to save costs.

[@shadowmaster1313]

​@@lookitskatiexapparently where she had him stationed he totally could have been union too, because she was a bad researcher

[@dmb1745]

"But the people who made it their whole personality to hate Twilight were always just like "sparkly vampires gay lmao" That's because the vast majority of Twilight hate back then came from males who had never read the books or even watched the movies. They just hated Twilight because women liked it (which also caused the Justin Bieber hate back then) and, like you said, "sparkly vampires gay". I think that's why the "Twilight hate isn't misogynistic" take just misses the mark. There are valid criticisms of Twilight, and I agree that on the whole it is a bad series, is racist and glorifies abusive relationships. However, none of the males criticising the series actually know these things because they never bothered to watch the films.

[@Shinigami41395]

@@dmb1745 "none of the males criticising the series actually know these things because they never bothered to watch the films." That is blatantly false. There are a lot of men who have read all the books and/or watched all the movies so that they could give informed reviews. Just a quick search on KZbin proves that.

[@RomaniScientist]

As a mixed Indigenous femme presenting kid, I was mocked endlessly for my black curly hair. I was called medusa, sticks, dirty, etc. But the moment a new white girl showed up to school with dark brown hair those same kids fawned over her. So I cackled at your line about a white girl with dark hair 😂 so painfully accurate

[@derek96720]

Are you conventionally attractive? And I don't mean your skin color.

[@mercychocolate72]

57:35 “It’s just about being aware of what we’re consuming and not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment. There are plenty of ways to blend both.” A WORD!!!

[@sp.2778]

There should definitely be more discussions regarding the racism within the Twilight series, especially the casting for the films. The only two Black men in the entire film series almost killed Bella (classmate with the van, the only Black vampire), all of the men of color in the film are portrayed as sexually aggressive (see: Jacob’s transformation from sweetheart to abusive jerk who always tries to push himself on Bella, black male classmate, black vampire, hell maybe even the whole werewolf tribe once they’re unveiled), the very few women of color in the film are at best treated as background characters and typically accused of being bitches (Leah) and the werewolf tribe is a whole discussion of its own…

[@derek96720]

Right, because there aren't numerous white characters in the film that are aggressive towards Bella. Nope, it's only the non-white characters . . . /s

[@jjj7790]

@@derek96720 You missed the point horribly. The problem isn't that the white characters are never toxic, it's that the nonwhite characters are exclusively toxic or have these really shitty and racist associations. If there are shit roles and a good roles, and all the PoC in your cast are exclusively in the bad roles. Saying "What about white people? There are some white people in bad roles too." isn't a good rebuttal.

[@derek96720]

How are the tribal kids "bad roles"? What about their role is racist?

[@TychoKingdom]

Im pretty sure non of the characters in twilight were supposed to be Black and SM didnt want them to be Black so talk about racism SM is racist but so are the casting crew. Like they are in every other movie.

[@courtneythompson6179]

I remember someone pointing out how in BD Bella thought the Amazon vampires were scary, wild and exotic.

[@jaminavestajugo3456]

Great point about the legitimation of Bella's feelings and the trashing of Lea's. Why is Bella's pining a sign of true love, while Lea is called bitter and whiny? Admittedly, I have only seen the movies and read the first book. But I would have liked a series focusing on Lea. What are her feelings about being a Shifter? Are there some parts of it that make her feel empowered? How is she treated by her tribe, especially the Elders? How did becoming a Shifter affect her own plans for her future? So many storylines to explore there.

[@Spidermonkey43]

Bella’s depression in new moon is viewed as annoying and disturbing by her “friends” (she doesn’t really have any outside of Edward and Jacob lol) however not much focus on that while Leah is annoying and is mean to other people and only makes it harder on Sam even tho he already feels horrible about it (not trying to hate comment just explaining something that should probably have been explained more in the books beyond a few throw away “Leah’s annoying about it” comments)

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

Dominic Noble has a very passionate and thorough dissection of the grooming aspects in his book reviews of the series: Breaking Dom

[@Rozdlc]

I like how he started the series questioning if his opinions on the series were influenced by misogyny and wanted to give it a fair shot only for him to go, yeah no, it's not just misogyny, they books are actually problematic.

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

​@@Rozdlc He was real af for trying to give it a fair shake. Glad he was honest enough to come to the only reasonable conclusion someone could have after plowing through that garbage

[@lilhonor5425]

I feel like Twilight also similar to Harry Potter has a lot of “fanon” that alongside the movies has colored peoples memories of the books and characters. Like when I rewatched the movies a while ago I had forgotten a lot of the negative aspects of Jacob’s character particularly in Eclipse.

[@fortunamajor7239]

This phenomenon in any fandom is always so interesting to me! Especially when it comes to fic, there are so many instances where you read something and go 'ok author, I think it's been a loooong time since you've revisited the source material😅'

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

There's probably also some people who assume everything about the movies is also true to the books, since treating the movie version of something as the "default" version is way too common in general.

[@cmyep3310]

Fanon is one of the reasons why people keep interacting with the community, but, at least in the fandom spaces I'm part of, the many problematics aspects of the franchise are openly discussed and criticised :))

[@EmberAlexander-x5h]

Everyone I knew who did like Twilight was of the team Jacob variety so me, a “cool girl” who read half of the first book and gave up because of the lack of plot, genuinely thought that the “natives are werewolves” plot line was /at least/ a liberal attempt to portray the vampires as evil colonizers, the werewolves as a sympathetic oppressed group, and the Cullens as not like other vampires white saviors which would still be problematic but you know, is common in mainstream media……imagine my surprise to learn that it was actually straight up white supremacist propaganda all along

[@Jasmine-dd2ke]

I never even noticed how vain and materialistic Alice is until you pointed it out. It's easy to miss because we're constantly being hit over the head with hearing how vain Rosalie is. I think why Meyer finds Alice's preoccupation with looks more "acceptable" is because it's rarely self-directed. She's the Best Friend who gets to doll up the pretty-but-doesn't-know-it main character rather than think of herself as beautiful, like Rosalie does. Meyer accidentally wrote a really interesting allegory for colonial power inflicts harm on the native people of a land and just decided to lean into it...bruh. I like the through-line you drew between Twilight and how we failed to unpack it's problematic elements a long time ago and the surge of romantasy fiction we're seeing on BookTok today. This was a great video!

[@lindseystein9676]

I always assumed the twilight series wasn’t as respected because of the obvious abusive relationship & creepy age gap. At least the movies leave out a lot of the racism that’s in the books. The author reallyyyy had a fixation on Jacob’s “red/russet skin.”

[@spacebar9733]

The age gap means nothing because Edward’s mind cannot age more than it did when he was turned. He will always mentally be 19 or however old he is. This is explained in midnight sun at least.

[@TheWhiteermine]

@@spacebar9733 forever together with a 19 year old teenager?! 😳 can you imagine? All the Drama 🤣🫠

[@belen3638]

​@@spacebar9733Imagine having the brain development of a teenager your entire life. If i was a vampire that would piss me off so bad

[@midnightsummerdream7]

​@@spacebar9733it's Meyer's excuse to prevent it from seeming as grooming. Somehow, whenever it suits him and his passion for knowledge, Edward becomes fully capable of developing his brain, memory skills, coming up with newer and newer life experiences that have been giving him newer and newer insights. And yet he would still be like: (read in a sheepish tone) "i-i im just like any basic teen, im your boy next door, i never grow up mentally, im like exactly like you and your classmates Bella, im forever 17, my level of comprehension is the same as yours... don't look at my perfectly perfect school and uni grades, don't mention my brilliant achievements in medicine alongside Carlisle, it doesn't have anything to do with my brain, my brain never but NEVER develops! trust me plsssss! Can we date already?"

[@Li_Tobler]

Hi, could you please explain what's wrong with the bit about "red/russet skin"? I'm new to these issues and on top of that, English is not my native language, so I grew up in totally different contexts and environment with completely different struggles. Thank you in advance!

[@natapie8702]

Thank you for pointing out how Bella doesnt have to raise Renesmee since shes a superchild - i recently rewatched Breaking Dawn 2 after YEARS and I noticed how much of a NOT child Renesmee is. They read poetry to her before bed. She plays the piano perfectly. She is QUIET. She never cries, shes never angry. That really really unsettled me since it seems like shes the ideal child to someone who never wants to deal with babies and toddlers and the messy drooly age Bella was talking about in the books. Like shes wise beyond her age, a tiny adult. I hate that SO so much, she feels like a horror film villain tbh lol

[@maybemablemaples2144]

It's the perfect Mormon child.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

I can see why that would be terrifying, but I'd love to be able to skip my kids baby phase and get right to the part where we can atleast talk lol

[@vs6584]

It's funny because an exact similar child from Dune, Alia Atreides, is called 'monstrosity' by other characters in the book for these very same reasons.

[@vs6584]

As Contrapoints said in her latest video, Renesmee was never meant to be a child but a second self-insert for Meyer as she wanted to get with both Edward AND Jacob, and in Mormonism, poly centered around the woman isn't an option.

[@Karin-fj3eu]

​@@vs6584oof

[@carriemoscoe3159]

39:48 that reminds me of Little Women of how Meg March’s storyline is written. On one hand, yes she just gets married and has babies like a traditional woman, but she DOES work and struggle. She sacrifices the chance to enter high society to marry a poor man, she has to defend him and her want to marry him to Aunt March and when she does marry him, she struggles to cook things like jam, she overblows their budget once because she has to adapt to a lifestyle where she can’t splurge on clothes anymore, and when she has kids, they consume her time so much she doesn’t involve him in parenting or lets herself have a break to where she learns to let her husband co parent the kids and to have a babysitter now and then so they can go out. Even if it is more traditional, it’s not without a price and she does have to continuously work at it…and Bella basically doesn’t.

[@carriemoscoe3159]

Part 2: Bella doesn’t learn how to make spaghetti or change a diaper or stay up all night rocking the baby to sleep or calm a tantrum or how to start a savings account for a trip to Italy (they can just go whenever they want bc they have endless money apparently) or go to marriage counseling with Edward or pay off the mortgage on their vampire penthouse…she just has all of that kind of…handed to her

[@Owesomasaurus]

Adjunct Professor Weekes teaching Critical Vampire Studies at Tolarian Community College is the vibe i needed.

[@emitheorbit1118]

Idk about all of you, but I can't stop finding extremely contradictory that these people are claiming all criticism as misogyny, in defense of a series with very misogynist stuff (featuring other bigotries) actively enforced in it.

[@thepriceisright048]

Ooop, this is the one

[@pbjmochi8400]

*Some* criticism back in the day was genuinely misogynistic, and media by women and for women has historically not been taken as seriously as media by and for men, but like most discourse, the actual valid criticisms gets drowned out by white people.

[@spacebar9733]

Both can be true. It’s not a contradiction. Like how some feminists say you shouldn’t be a housewife you need to work… telling women what they should be doing with their lives once again, the very thing we are against! Reinforcing the idea that nothing women do is right. And that women should only do what _____ claims is right. It’s just two sides of the same coin.

[@banditq8991]

@@spacebar9733 this analysis totally misses the point of WHY feminists criticize aspects of 'traditional' family life. women rightfully pointing out the misogyny in the tropes and concepts that twilight espouses are not chastising the mostly female audience. they're criticizing the work for espousing those harmful concepts. women rightfully pointing out the potential downsides of 'traditional' family life are not chastising housewives. they're criticizing a model of living that can be unsafe for women, even while it's promoted as the best option for women. they're bringing attention to the fact that many women were historically barred from higher education and career success because the woman's role was in the home. nobody is saying women need to be this or that, or that women are stupid for enjoying this flawed piece of media, they are critiquing social structures of power that say that these things are universally positive for women when that is not the case.

[@sharkofjoy]

it has very "You're the real racist by pointing out how the things I've done are racist" vibes

[@leitmotif7268]

Everything about the books makes sense when you understand the depths of misery that is a Mormon Woman. Stephanie had ONE dream about a sexy vampire and ran as far as she could with it.

[@nicolasnamed]

Yeah like I think it puts a really interesting and human lens on the way the book is written, that it's this struggle for survival between human will and desire versus social expectations, and trying to find a way to fulfill one's fantasy but not hurt the self. That Stephanie so unconsciously laid out all these ways of wishing to be liberated from Mormon culture but also still sorta being a "good woman" in the cultural context of Mormonism to some extent

[@kittykatjones]

Alice really put the pixie in manic pixie dream girl tbh

[@kimberlylopez3230]

I'm so glad you brought up Leah!! She is the reason i HATED Jacob when reading New Moon. He knew about "imprinting" and still wanted to manipulate Bella into dating him and not Edward; similarly, Sam Uley KNEW he had not imprinted on Leah and still CHOSE to promiss to be with her despite the fact that he KNEW he would eventually leave her!!!!! Sorry for the rant, continue with your awsome discussion.

[@dachshunds2676]

"not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment" is such a snappy quote. I feel like reasons why people may shy away from engaging critically with work like this is either being afraid of feeling judged for enjoying, or losing your enjoyment of the thing, and both, i feel like, kind of ties into people just treating a thing like a homogenous "one" (as in either you like it all, or hate it all)? I feel like there is a lot to gain in trying to specify *what* aspects you do/dont enjoy about a thing and why, and I think this helps a lot with becoming more comfortable with more negative criticisms because you know where you yourself stand, if that makes sense.

[@alexandramoore8200]

I read a quote once where a jewish writer (journalist? Idk it stuck but not the context) said that if they didn't read any books by people who were antisemetic to any extent, then they wouldn't be able to read any classics and most modern texts. I don't think we can reasonably expect perfection (perfect antiracism, feminism, cultural correctness, etc) from any author. But i think that using that as an excuse to read what they wrote without any interrogative lens is a failure to live by your own morals. I also think that death of the author gets applied too readily to living people who are still profiting off peoples choice to ignore the authors bad behaviour (cough, jkr, cough). I love how well you explained that something can be imperfect/have serious issues while the negative reaction to it was also bad and not about the genuine criticisms.

[@amazinggrapes3045]

JKR did nothing wrong

[@isacami25]

"She had that bad day and is still not eating people alive... and i don't have that strenght." LMAO

[@samf.s.7731]

Now that should be on a T Shirt 😂

[@ChelseaMason-v6w]

"not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment". damn. you ate as usual.

[@Urmumlel7025]

Bro, one of the characters is a confederate soilder. These fans gotta stop the meat riding😓

[@drawingsticks5333]

I feel like the idea that the arrival of the white vampires in indigenous tribes forces them to shapeshift and ruins their lives by forcing them to adapt to new supernatural rules would have been great in a book that actually cared (I'm thinking of the The Terror adaptation series).

[@ic5889]

One of the biggest betrayals in my high-school life was being recommended twilight by classmates because I read a lot of fantasy, and then reading the back cover in the library like "romance??? Romance??? I, a very smart 13yo, am way too good to read romance." I have since read some enjoyable romances but I'm glad I dodged the twilight bullet

[@iateabagelonce]

LMAO Stephanie Meyer. Oh, Stephanie. Her defense about how of course Rosalie couldn't have children because her body was frozen........ Bella has Renesmee because Bella becoming a vampire - AS A VIRGIN, importantly - is a metaphor for entering the highest possible Mormon heaven (the celestial kingdom), where Mormons believe that good Mormons go, have perfect heavenly bodies, are married to their spouse for forever, and the women have babies forever and ever. Bella uniquely gains this state while the other Cullens are lesser for "reasons" I guess

[@arkkon2740]

Whats weird is though, apparently the semen in male vampires is preserved until its "released" I guess, but why aren't the eggs? It's so easy to do, Stephanie

[@Spidermonkey43]

Bella wasn’t a virgin when she had Renesme…..

[@morighani]

@@arkkon2740i don’t think it’s an issue with the eggs themselves. It’s seems like it’s the whole menstrual and pregnancy cycle. Fetuses are literal parasites until they’re born, so it would make sense that a vampire’s body that is perfectly self-generating and self preserving would make this change impossible. I’m not sure how blood works in their bodies either? isn’t it poison or something? How would that be sustenance for an egg? logic is definitely dodgy, i don’t think male vampires should be fertile either but i think the explanation is quite valid

[@arkkon2740]

@@morighani about the blood thing, they dont bleed. Their bodies definitely aren't hollow but when you crack them open its just rock in there. They're also really flammable I guess. The baby literally drank bella from the inside out so I guess they need blood to survive, but drinking blood is to the same effect so I see no reason why a vampire can't do this normally. It seems like every other bodily function is fine but it makes no goddamn sense God I hate how we're putting so much more effort into this than steph is 💀

[@Just_One_Tree]

To increase accessibility, it would really help if you put additional notes on screen anywhere but the bottom. For those of us that need captions it makes it a hassle to read the notes under the auto captions. So many creators put text where the captions are like that, it’s definitely not just you. I really appreciate all the hard work you put into your videos and hope this comes across as a friendly suggestion cause that’s how I mean it

[@sandracraft517]

Wasn't Jasper Cullen in the Confederate army? How can he still be adjusting to vampirism after over a century? Also, how does an embryo with an undeveloped brain have "thoughts"? This book is so confusing.

[@loreliz4]

Jasper didn’t get with Alice until WELL after the confederate army stuff if I’m not mistaken. Idk how long they’ve been together but I assume he was living a life style that most other vampires decide to live which was doing whatever they pleased as long as they didn’t piss off the Volture. Also Jasper was “in love” with the person who turned him and many others so I would assume he also had some heart ache to get over before even considered dating again

[@Samson16436]

It's giving "pro-life"

[@rafaela00002]

the end of the video reminded me of that quote by anita sarkeesian about how it's possible and even necessary to be critical of the media you love. great discussion! can't wait for the tolkien video

[@darshansenthil]

"Stephanie who hurt you?" is a great way to sum up the Twilight series tbh.

[@olivia8243]

Great video! It bothers me when people say that a work of fiction is feminist because "a woman's choices drive the narrative." Not every choice a woman makes is inherently feminist, but also it's not even true! Fictional characters do not make choices. They are not real; they are constructed by writers, and the actions they take represent a particular point of view. This is why I've been trying to get away from the concept of "agency" as it pertains to female characters. It's a good starting point, but I think we can ask for more

[@Samson16436]

That's why I try to write my characters not only in the context of the story but also imagine how they would be in other settings and relationships (for example in the real world). To me it helps with authenticity/realism, it deepens my understanding of them and makes them in more control of their story. Usually my stories are basically written by the characters themselves. I provide an environment and play with plot points/conflicts/themes but the rest is up to them and they constantly contribute to it all. That's probably why I take so long and struggle with endings 😅 it takes a long time to get to know someone even when they're born from your own mind. They also need space to express and develop themselves. I truly love my writing/creative process.

[@yvaincallipso84]

It is kind of wild that the main hate and criticisms the Twilight series had at the time is that their main demographic was heterosexual moms and teen girls, instead of the poor writing, creepy/toxic relationship, racism, that creepy thing about Jacob being in LOVE WITH A LITERAL BABY. It has genuine issues that should definitely be discussed. But instead it's main point was "mainly women like it= bad"

[@MegaMegafran]

What shocked me too was the way Meyer seemed to go out of her way to punish the women in the story, the supernaturals got their "power up" as the result of something horrible happening to them: Esme was a battered woman, Rosalie was gang raped, Alice was locked away in the nuthouse and hunted down, Emily was desfigured and basically stalked by her cousins bf into a relationship, Leah got dumped and traded for her cousin. If you look at it, its like she's punishing the pretty and popular girls from highschool whose click she never fitted in with, the "not like other girls" is a jab at them bc they likely always regarded her as the lame boring mormon kid that isnt allowed to do anything unless its going to church and dressing like an amish reject. And the other female characters dont get any better treatment either, they are seen in 3 categories vapid shallow highschool girls, background mob character, or the villainess who is just out to get her with not much depth to her, meaning she could be replaced with a stapler and it wouldnt change the story at all😓 On the other hand the men are somehow chosen by somebody else or are picked as some sort of champion defendors, how the hell is that fair?!🤨🤨🤨 Even the description of Bella is a heavily sexist construction of a character, she's beautiful but she doesn't work at it or aknowledges it, she's smart but not seen as a nerd, she's clumsy but is seen as endearing so nobody mocks her for it, socially akward but she's treated like shes somehow cool for it. So we have a pretty clumsy nerd with awkward tendencies that every guy is instantly in love with at 1st glance...😶😶am I the only one whose math isn't mathing here????🤨🤨🤨

[@namkia205]

Bella is Smeyer's self-insert and she seems to hate every girl with sex appeal because only innocence is appealing to mormons

[@cussedcat28]

And they didn't even get a Native actor to play Jacob, one of the most prominent Native characters in modern fiction.

[@AragornElessar]

The actor they cast first wouldn't cut his hair. Cutting indigenous people's hair was something colonizers did to native people to assimilate them. Ali Nahdee made a very good video on the anti-native racism within twilight. It really opened my eyes on how much the hate is baked into the universe.

[@liweing]

"not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment" is a sentiment i'm trying to hold more in my life. amazing video x

[@GimmeBooks95]

Idk what it is exactly but 30:38 hit me HARD: "It's very reductive to think there's only two kinds of characters: girls who do nothing and girls who save the world."

[@TheDarkAgez]

I want Stephanie to sit down and explain to me how female vampires and werewolves can’t reproduce, but their male counterparts can. Explain it to me like I’m 5.

[@TheDarkAgez]

Cause on the vampire front, getting an erection is a change in your physical body. Producing sperm is a change in body

[@MouldMadeMind]

For vampires it makes sense since they are corpselike.

[@carrotsprout5188]

what I interpret it as is that vampires don't have a normal metabolism, basically the blood they drink is kinda replacing the blood they used to have so they don't produce their own hormones anymore and for wolf shifters, they have a faster metabolism and they also have a higher body temperature so I'm guessing that does something to the reproductive system too. but again this is a theory I came up with and it isn't explained in the source material.

[@TheDarkAgez]

@@MouldMadeMind But a corpse can't produce sperm, so I don't really understand

[@TheDarkAgez]

@@carrotsprout5188 I love a fan idea as much as the next person! Re werewolves: But wouldn't a higher body temp also affect sperm? Like that happens in humans. Like you're not supposed to go into the sauna if you're trying to have kids. Re Vampires: How does that impact sperm production? If anything, your theory supports vampires with uterus being able to pull a Bella to drink blood to help grow a baby.

[@heIImiina]

"stop treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment" !!!!! wow! that had me speechless, that's amazingly said

[@sammyvictors2603]

Maybe its just me, I do have this vague reading of some knee-deep Freudian waters in Twilight. Like Edward as this both lover and paternal figure. It tells me something is off about Meyer's fundie Mormon upbringing. And this is not a diss on Mormon writers and creators. Don Bluth, my childhood favorite animator, is a Mormon himself and yet he makes better female characters than Stephanie Meyer (My favorite Bluth heroine is Anastasia, as she is the one who defeats the villain and has an arc of wanting to know who her true identity is).

[@samf.s.7731]

Isn't Brandon Sanderson also Mormon? But I get what you mean, the only way this could have been less subtle is if Bella actually called him "daddy". Anyway, I always thought that Angel from Buffy was more like the vampirical archetype that Stephanie Meyer was channeling into Edward, I don't think she was very successful because Angel does a lot of sh!t and is very nuanced... I guess she couldn't write "vampire with a soul", because that would have gotten her sued 😂 There's no Spike/bad boi archetype character in Twilight as far as I'm concerned... But that's the thing, Spike does all the stereotypical vampirical stuff like being very sexually charged, and actually seducing Buffy... No soul, and drinks blood from the can. Just a perfect foil for Angel. He'd literally killed the slayers before Buffy so you're genuinely curious about what's gonna play out and how it will play out. The main couple are star crossed, the alternative is "naughty", and there's actual tension watching while the shows episodic format and supporting characters make for a fantastic ride 😊 Also, Buffay the Vampire layer is the plot to BG3, and no one is gonna make me change my mind

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@samf.s.7731 Yes, Sanderson is mormon and it shows in his writing every bit as much as it does in Meyer's. As an exmormon I have very little tolerance for either author's work.

[@jedyzichterman358]

​@@Larissa-eo3pt Could you elaborate on this? There are clear themes of religion in his books (especially in regards to the Shards), but what parts of them specifically would you, as an ex-mormon (I assume you believe it has a harmful ideology, but again that's just my assumption) take umbrage with?

[@chavezsessoms7071]

The line you said about Jacob using Renesme as an entry point into the white/vampire world had me say not Jacob the Kanye of twilight 😭💀💀 minus the predator behavior

[@TacticusPrime]

I don't know about minus...

[@ayanna6327]

Thank you for bringing up the treatment of Leah Clearwater. That NEVER sat right with me. She had way more of a reason to be aloof and full of angst than Bella's ass ever did, yet was constantly treated as if she were being inconsiderate. She and Rosalie deserved their own books.

[@fancyhughes]

A problem I had with the pregnancy storyline (in the movie, I didn’t read the book but I’m guessing it’s basically the same if not worse) was the way it framed Bella wanting to carry out the pregnancy even though she would likely die was the morally superior choice. Being faced with a situation like that is devastating, so to imply or blatantly state that choosing to die in childbirth as opposed to terminating the pregnancy so you can live (and perhaps have another chance at having a child) is selfless and morally right is fucked up. I’m not surprised that’s the message Stephanie Meyer wants to push, I’ve been hearing stories of women who died in childbirth so their baby can live are being put up for sainthood (Catholic).

[@pammgurl]

33:00 isnt it weird that vampire women cant get pregnat but vampire men can impregnate? wouldnt the same principle about "change" apply? I vaguely remember something about venom having to do with vampire sperm, but this is extremely weird and uncomfortable. Stephenie has clearly no idea how sperm production works.

[@jaggedlittleprayer]

The most hilarious thing about the last movie was how little Renesmee was parented. Totally optional child whose existence is factored out of half the plot

[@higurashikai09]

I never read the book, but a childhood friend of mine wanted me to come watch the first movie in theatres. I had no idea what I was going to watch honestly, so my sister, that friend and I all went to see the movie. That moment when he went into the sunlight, my sister leaned up to me and whispered "when is he going to light on fire?" I leaned over to our friend and whispered "is he sweating?" And she responded "he's sparkling." That was my experience with the movie

[@higurashikai09]

I never thought it was "gay" or anything for him to sparkle, but I thought it was way too tame to be considered some dramatic reason for the vampires to avoid seeing people. Like sparkly makeup is basically what happens to them. Nothing else about the movie really stood out to me. Other than maybe that moment where they lied about Bella like falling down a set of stairs and then out a window-that was hilarious.

[@ninafox3416]

Omg! As a black girl who read and loved Twilight, I never even picked up on any on this, but you are so right!

[@plentyoflulu4694]

The first thing i ever saw of the movie was the vampire looking Like about to puke by smelling the protagonist. God they are terrible, and i love them soo much. Best movies ever

[@tansbizarreadventure]

ughhh i love the conclusion! as an avid reader i love the way you talked about how the “i read for fun” crowd immediately shuts down any type of critical analysis of any work, like we always say “nothing happens in a vacuum”

[@darksaint0124]

As someone that has been reading urban fantasy since the 90s and has watched the effect those books have had on the industry, I can honestly say I wish they were never published. We are still dealing with the high volume of low quality cash grab attempts 2 decades later.

[@chrono4998]

do you have any urban fantasy recs that don't have huge conservative subtext??? It's what's keeping me from the genre even though urban fantasy seems super appealing

[@lucyla9947]

​@@chrono4998 Off the top of my head Hidden Legends by Megan Linski & Alicia Rades. There's currently four series (potentially more later), three of them focus on various hidden magical societies in our world, the fourth sort of brings them together (actually arguably the fourth is also connected to a magical society as well, but that comes later). It sticks to the general formula of YA Urban Fantasy, but it approaches it from a more socially-conscious lense.

[@darksaint0124]

@@chrono4998 Honestly there aren't too many new series that really live up to the series that were created in the 2000s. I'm currently going through a large pile of books that I've had stocked up to read since the lock downs and the only series I can think of that came out in the last decade and has stayed consistently good without trying to push a particular political message is the Vampire Innocent series by the author Matthew J. Cox. Honestly, that series is far better than it has any right to be.

[@Sasu123456789x1]

Completely agree

[@lukesguywalker]

The Quileute Tribe has been trying to move to higher ground for some time now because they are vulnerable to natural disaster. Please consider donating!

[@ajaxbird2348]

I think that people really underestimate the impact the Meyer's faith on the themes of this series. The way she writes about sexuality is the same as the way she writes about the vampires' predation. And racism toward Indigenous Americans has a long history in the Mormon church.

[@cameronvansant2108]

That bit at 20:00 😬 Extremely yikes of Stephanie. Also, very Mormon-coded to me. ("Be pretty, but if you're assaulted, it's your fault for being pretty. Also not making babies is the tragic part of this.") Great video, as always!

[@hearthyager8682]

"It's about [...] not treating awareness as a threat to enjoyment." So succinctly put!

[@snarkbotanya6557]

My least favorite things to happen in the Twilight books are both in _Breaking Dawn._ The first is Bella seeing Edward waiting at the altar and having all of her worries about marriage, which more or less read like a _pathological fear_ up to that point, vanish in an instant. The second is Bella getting pregnant and _immediately_ declaring it "not a choice, a necessity." Both of these events, _espeically_ taken together, smack of something that women who express disinclination toward marriage and/or children constantly hear. It comes in several flavors: "oh, honey, once you meet the right man you'll feel differently," "once you're married you'll love it," "once you're pregnant you'll understand a mother's love," etc, each of which basically amounts to "you don't know what you want, and what you really want is what society traditionally expects of you." That patronizing attiude is about as far removed from feminism as you can get.

[@Chickadeemedicine]

Yknow, in hindsight this book is more problematic than even I noticed… and trust me I definitely noticed a lot of issues… but I feel like I can sum them up in one phrase. “Stephanie Meyer, hun, your Mormon is showing….”

[@IvoirePunk]

My friend and I have been rereading the books over the past month (read them originally as middle schoolers when they were coming out) and we call it "Mormon brain worms."

[@spacebar9733]

I’m not even religious but I don’t think she can just unlearn her entire upbringing for our comfort. It’s called religious indoctrination for a reason. We (the reader) should definitely acknowledge the religious details of the book but implying she’s supposed to hide it is an immature take. I think we should look critically and objectively, dissecting why these details are bad or important to note instead of just a condescending “ugh this dumb Mormon author trying to make me feel bad”. Haruki Murakami doesn’t even get this much hate lol

[@Shewhospeakesinverse]

I listened to a podcast called Read it and Weep bc it was hate listening to twilight and bc these were just out of colleges cishet white men there were criticisms there tht i wasnt getting from other places tht focused on how creepy it was. I think i also just took in enough Tumblr posts btwn the years of 2011-2015 tht every single issue with the book is in my mental rolodex

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@spacebar9733 It sounds like you're saying she's not at fault for still holding those beliefs. I was raised mormon and the indoctrination is very real but it does not excuse me of anything. "..implying she's supposed to hide it.." I don't think that's at all what any of her critics are suggesting. We don't want her to hide her icky beliefs, we want her to recognize the ways they've shaped her worldview and to try to see the world differently. In other words we want her to grow. It's the opposite of an immature take.

[@diminie_chimket]

​@@Shewhospeakesinverse wow, look how intelligent you sound 😂

[@ShesquatchPiney]

The having Renesme to get the status of motherhood while never having to actually raise the baby always cheezed me off.

[@alechiavassa]

I've been following your channel since the MelinaPendulum days, seing you talk about Twilight brings me back

[@fortunamajor7239]

Saaaame I'm so glad she's getting her flowers

[@justmeagain4662]

"No, I swear officer it's not grooming I'm just her magically chosen much older wolf-mate who will be a presence her entire life and then eventually become her husband! But not in a sexual way!"