Hell: Unfair and Barbaric or Just and Deserved?

[@EduardoRomero1965]

“Why do bad things happen to good people? Well, that only happened once, and He volunteered.” - R.C. Sproul

[@hydrolito]

Esau forgave his brother that cheated him out of his blessing.

[@Lucas-gm3bv]

Why do good things happen to bad people?

[@jerrylong6238]

Wrong, that happens even today 24/7. Because no god ever has or will exist in our shared reality.

[@peacefulhome6]

i love this response to this question. none of us are good, only Jesus was. we all fail at being good every single day, sometimes in little ways and sometimes in big ways but eaven so we fail. this is why we all need Jesus because we are lost without Him.

[@TeshuvahBibleStudies]

@@peacefulhome6 Yeah... I don't think Jerry Long caught that.

[@BuildingUpFaith]

Hell often seems unfair when we do not understand the holiness of God. This was a great video, Melissa!

[@jeepstergal4043]

@@followjesus671 Shouting doesn't make your point valid.

[@bobbycecere1037]

Ah, It's God's holiness that impels him to torture a human soul for an eternity. That makes sense.

[@jeepstergal4043]

@@followjesus671 You're welcome

[@arcguardian]

The good news is u can still trust in God without fully understanding His holiness, in short hell exists for a good reason. Hell exists because of God's goodness/holiness.

[@arcguardian]

@@bobbycecere1037 they want nothing to do with God. If God is the source of good, misery awaits those who reject Him.

[@joan8862]

A child wanting their own way, sounds like my son. Very hard to discipline and parent. He's an adult now but a total mess and still thinks his way is the right way. He's an alcoholic, unemployed, no car, no phone and soon to be evicted from his dad's home. I am so distraught. He was raised in the Faith, I pray for his life and most importantly for his soul.

[@vickieadams6648]

You'd be surprised at how many of these kids raised to know the Lord have rejected the way. It very sad and prevalent. My son works hard, is responsible, law abiding etc. But he has walked away from his faith, has not raised my grandkids in fear of the Lord, and is into the world. We don't have time for this right now. The time is short and I hope he makes it in. All my christian friends are experiencing the same problems.

[@BIBLE-UNBUTCHERED]

"..eye has not seen, nor ear heard, the good things God has in store for those who love Him." The Bible says 'the holiness of a parent' "makes the child holy". We all account for our sins it's true, our God is a just judge - on this we can Trust. "His ways are so much higher than our own'. Don't be discouraged.

[@joan8862]

@@BIBLE-UNBUTCHERED thank you

[@santosdr2]

Then teach him that his way can be right, because he can lead his life in a way that is righteous. His way is right for him. Even the lessons of hardship will be right. You can't force someone into faith. You can't force someone into loving themselves either.

[@ExposingJWTeachings]

I honestly feel like we all have a period of major rebellion before revelation. ❤️ Don’t give up.

[@forthebestresultsonalldevices]

He is so right. If we are truly honestly raw with ourselves, no human is good. We are evil inherently. Selfish and Vain. Is hard to admit it to oneself. This is why we have to cling to Jesus desperately, He is our only salvation. Do not trust yourself, trust The LORD.

[@mintoo2cool]

if jesus is the only salvation, then explain Matthew 8:11 and Revelation 9:7 ? Matthew 8:11 states ‘And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.’ Revelation 7:9 states ‘9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands;’

[@forthebestresultsonalldevices]

Jesus is God, who provides you with life everyday you wake up. So yeah, He is the only way to be save.

[@ExposingJWTeachings]

@@mintoo2coolThose verses are simply stating that many from different tribes accepted their free salvation…… through Jesus Christ 😐

[@lauren_mask]

Those are all the people who come to Jesus, from all over the world. Just because a lot of different people enter a home from one door does not mean there’s more than one door just because they came from different parts of the earth. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

[@drakesmith2492]

I have greatly benefited from Clay Jones' books. Especially after my wreck that left me partly disabled and quite angry at God. His book Why does God Allow Evil helped me through quite a lot of healing spiritually but it wasn't always easy. It is a hard and emotional topic and it is therefore hard to address. At times I was angry at Clay just for being so bold but I worked through it in time. I doubt I would have handled it so well if it was a friend or loved one or an actual conversation. Having a book to process at my own speed and an author I couldn't offend or hurt when I was hurting too much and too messed up to not lash out at someone who tried to address the pain with truth.

[@YoungMommy14]

Yeah... Do me a solid, brother. Can you please elucidate me as to why he accused The Jewish People in assisting in the Holocaust?

[@drakesmith2492]

@@YoungMommy14 Why are you asking me this question? Also, considering that I watched this video over two weeks ago why would you expect me to remember random tangents and be able to comment on them? If he did make the claim you are accusing him of then the most likely reason he made it is because he has read about it while researching genocides. I have not put nearly the same amount of effort into understanding genocides so it is no surprise that he has knowledge that I do not. But, thanks to the internet it is possible to search and quickly test the assumption that he may be speaking from knowledge I lack. So, I did a simple Google search and as expected there are dozens of links related to the topic as well as a book on the subject called "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers". I'm sure those resources could better answer your question than I. Go check them out.

[@YoungMommy14]

@@drakesmith2492 you know what, dude... Don't worry about it. I've already contacted The Anti-Defemation League. Just to refresh your memory, this is EXACTLY what he said VERBATIM. 'Jews do not think, by the way that Germans were worse people than Jews... and the reason they don't think think that is because SO MANY JEWS... they could not have committed The Holocaust... They could not commit The Holocaust if so many JEWS HADN'T HELPED THEM COMMIT THE HOLOCAUST'. Listen, brother. I want you to understand that I'm not angry at You! But, the truth is, contrary to what Jones says, ZERO Jews assisted in The Holocaust! This is what Nazis and bigots do all the time. They try to revise history. I spoke to Jones briefly and he could not name ONE SINGLE JEWISH PERSON who assisted in The Holocaust! He couldn't name ONE! So listen... don't worry about it. This has nothing to do with you.

[@rachelrintala2182]

Thank you Melissa for being bold enough to talk about hell. I respect you for this

[@maxamahnken7325]

You are wrong about hell. Suffering will end.

[@ExposingJWTeachings]

@@maxamahnken7325That is rather vague being that that describes suffering on Earth.

[@maxamahnken7325]

No ever burning hell

[@maxamahnken7325]

No ----- ever burning hell

[@MB-nx9tq]

Hell is a lie and heaven is a lie, conjured up in Ancient Greek and Persian religion. The Christian religion is devoid of truth.

[@juliemauger6183]

Very timely video for me. A dear Buddhist friend of mine has just passed away suddenly. He was a man that dedicated his life to good works and helped many people. I've been struggling to accept what the Bible says on the final destination of all of us, and God's prerequisites for entering heaven. This video has been helpful, thank you both.

[@duriuswulkins4324]

Julie, my heart goes out to you in regards to your grief at the loss of your friend. When I was 19 (I’m 23 now) I lost a good friend of mine to suicide and it really made me question how such tragedies can be allowed to happen. Jesus speaks about this. “There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:1-5 The point is, the death which surrounds us all must make us truly consider whether we ourselves have fully repented and are living for Christ. In addition to this, we should be giving our every effort to help seek and save the lost while they are still living.

[@juliemauger6183]

@@duriuswulkins4324 that's a lovely comment, and you speak the truth. Our fallen, finite minds can't comprehend fully the gravity of sin, we just have to trust what God has told us, as He knows us all so well.

[@Katarina4567]

Sorry for the loss of your friend. JESUS is the only way....Besides the BIBLE, my favourite book is Pilgrim's Progress.......Please read it ...GOD BLESS You and soothe you aching heart for the loss of your friend. I lost my best friend 2 years ago. Big Luv ! 🍃🔥🍃💕💕💕

[@jozefnixmusic]

Your friend is fine. God is love. God is not picky and childish. Nor is he a bully.

[@ThisDonut]

Im honestly looking for a reply here.

[@jessicat.5245]

I did not know how much I needed this interview. Thank you both so much!

[@arcguardian]

I didn't need it, but man it is a blessing. It's one of the few hour long videos that has kept my attention, I'm 40 mins in so I hope it doesn't change, but either way it has been a blessing to consume.

[@dianalinscome5830]

Melissa, this was a great video, fantastic information from Clay Jones. Practicly all my questions about Hell were answered and about the "good people"... WOW just amazing 😍 Thanks for all you're doing to answer all our questions about Jesus and everything else ✝️🙏❤️

[@THERaynaKay]

Ooooooh, this conversation is 👏🏾 SO NEEDED 👏🏾, and I look forward to more like this!

[@NubianX1963]

“How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live.” - Great Controversy Pg 335 (1888, 1911)

[@juliep1122]

Absolutely how I feel too. Blessings ❤

[@cltheman1960]

Amen! That is a good book. God is good, and will ultimately bring an utter end to sin, not immortalize and perpetuate it.

[@leeleedart1367]

Truth! And I highly recommend reading this book as well.

[@Bitcoin-Bullet]

Everyone will get justice or mercy but no one will get injustice

[@jozefnixmusic]

It’s actually very unjustified to send people to hell

[@kenfaulds8818]

Amen Mike.

[@laurenlimebrook9828]

@@jozefnixmusic Actually all people deserve hell as they are all sinners. The wages of sin is death. Jesus conquered death and sin and he does forgive those who ask him for forgiveness. There is no forgivenss of sin for those who deny Christ.

[@SillyChickens222]

@@jozefnixmusicyes, you are right. It is unjust to torment someone forever for finite sins. Especially when God sent His Son to die for the sins of the world (including unbelief)

[@SillyChickens222]

@@laurenlimebrook9828death ≠ “eternal” torment. Death = a return. And what exactly did I do to earn the wages of sin? Did we not inherit sin from Adam? What then did I do to earn it if I just inherited it? It should read the ration of sin is death. Death being a return not eternal torment. All die in Adam and all will be made alive in Christ. All sin and had no free will choice to inherit sin, so all will be made alive in Christ and had no free will choice to inherit life. Jesus is a second Adam and a better one

[@antonego7950]

I see the correlation. Since HE hasn’t been abused, he may not understand. I think God has compassion on the hurting and bewildered. Also if you’ve been abused and you’ve lived a fairly healthy and stable life then that is absolutely gods blessing and grace! They are also the exception and not the rule. Most people who are abused suffer in their life greatly and that’s what brings them to God. IMO.

[@jeycee32]

I’m one of those types of people who really enjoy deep philosophical and intellectual conversations, especially when theology and the gospel is involved. That’s what this channel is like.

[@MarkWCorbett1]

I enjoyed the tone of the interview. I love the closing emphasis on living for eternity. But on the topic of hell (which based on the title I expected to be the main topic), I was disappointed with how little discussion there was about what the Bible actually says. For myself, I used to think the Bible actually teaches eternal torment. I now am convinced that it teaches conditional immortality. May God bless this video and Melissa's ministry (and Clay's!).

[@maanlicht8583]

I'm with you on that, Im currently still on my way of figuring out what the bible says and ajusting some views I was raised with

[@katherineb9815]

Yes brother, I am also absolutely convinced.

[@MindTheHeart]

Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what will happen to the ungodly. They are all burned to ashes, which necessarily means that the ungodly one day will be no more. If the ungodly is supposed to continue to exist somewhere and be tortured for all eternity, the example from the OT simply does not work. Without God we die. For real.

[@Julia29853]

Bible verses? I guess you are talking about annihilation, in other words punishment for a time based on justice, then annihilation. Would be interested in verses supporting that.

[@TheEllaTB]

What do you see in scripture that supports this idea?

[@vangothengirl]

I kid you not, I just talked to one of my husband's friends and the topic of why God allows evil comes up. I hear this a lot and really wondered this myself. I'll be honest, I really think a lot of it has to do with abusing our free will. I don't think that fully explains all of it though and I am really curious to read that book to get a further understanding. Although sometimes knowing things can be scary, I think it's important to still learn otherwise if we stopped learning growth would stop as well. I love deep discussions and pondering on different points of view that would possibly never cross my mind otherwise. God bless you all and stay safe in this ever growing crazy world 🙏💕🕊️

[@TruthWins515]

This is such a thought provoking discussion! I love it! Thankyou Melissa for having the guest on. Love your work, keep it up! 😁🙌

[@amyhenningsgard8618]

Melissa asks such great questions!! Thank you for this interview.🙏🏻❤️✝️📖

[@MB-nx9tq]

This pair, normal human beings, speak as deluded psychopaths.

[@katherineb9815]

"Ye, in putting departed souls in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection." William Tyndale

[@followerofchrist4064]

What a great interview/conversation! So many gems said in this that I need to relisten and write them down. Thx so much!!

[@ladymae2007]

Although there are many scriptures to cite regarding this question, probably the most often quoted verse in Evangelical Christianity gives the answer that harmonizes with the many others: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3 "Perish" is the opposite of "eternal life".

[@arcguardian]

U failed to define eternal death. If suffering in the lake of fire is eternal death than you've only proven Clay's point.

[@johnnybgoode2484]

@@arcguardian It's impossible to suffer if you're DEAD! Why is this so hard for some to understand? Oi vey.

[@ladymae2007]

@@arcguardian “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish (Gk: apollumi; be destroyed), but have everlasting life (i.e. immortality-knowing God).

[@Emkamo-r1c]

@arcguardian The lake of fire is the second death. The original language says "eternal destruction" not "suffering", also why would scripture say fear not man who can kill the body, but fear God who can DESTROY both body and soul in hell

[@ThemCoversMB]

You should absolutely interview Chris date on this topic. It would be very thought provoking.

[@leniobarcelos1770]

I agree.

[@bcnotpc659]

One of the best interviews I have ever heard! Thank you, I am ordering his book ASAP.

[@djshaneb123]

This was beautiful and powerful, please have more guests like these. The questions you asked were deep and insightful. Glory to God!

[@joepittman3292]

So it's not the good works. We cannot do enough of them to save ourselves. It's the 'do we, like a child, humble ourselves and trust in the One God sent to save us'.

[@titusax]

Given the right opportunity to sin horribly I would do it 100 times over, I have to thank God for keeping me from having those opportunities!

[@WillEhrendreich]

Wonderful interview, I love hearing from clay, he's got so many great points. I wonder if you would have Chris Date on, he's one of the most prominent Annihilationist guys out there and he's truly convinced me. Would you have a way to get him on to present this side? He's usually quite happy to do that. Also, please pray for his wife, Starr. She's got a brain tumor and is going through treatment now.

[@BrotherDave80]

let the Holy Spirit and scripture convince you.

[@WillEhrendreich]

@@BrotherDave80 when I say that Chris has convinced me, do you suppose that he did so without the holy spirit guiding him or me? Or that he was simply asserting his position without scripture to back it up?

[@gabriellekelly3462]

Before I was a follower, I felt the same as you did. Hell seemed too harsh but I also was not repentant myself and felt justified in my sin. There was always a good reason (excuse)... I was in love, life was really hard, I was depressed, it was fun, doing the right thing was inconvenient and of course, what's a little white lie in the grand scheme of me being a good person? Basically, I was lost and coming fully to the knowledge that the punishment was just because I am depraved was and is necessary to my salvation. I didn't know best, God did. If I was righteous enough to earn my own salvation, I wouldn't have needed a savior. And in that knowing of my need of Jesus saving, came the light to carry me out of the pity and entitlement of my own sin. Thank you for such a great video on a topic not discussed enough.

[@jaimebrown2390]

wow, beautifully said!

[@bootsy70]

Amen. ❤🙏🙏🙏😁.

[@A.T.266]

I like some of Melissa Dougherty’s other videos, but in dealing with the problem of hell, it seems to me like Christian apologists sometimes provide a more detailed explanation than the Bible warrants. I still can’t think of an adequate explanation as to how to reconcile the notion with God is good and loving, with the concept of eternal torment, yet I can’t prove there’s a contradiction between these concepts either.

[@cltheman1960]

I made a comment in the comment section, where I provides Bible texts that show how the Bible actually doesn't support eternal torment, but rather mortalism and conditional immortality, where only the saved will get eternal life at resurrection, but the lost will get condemnation and be destroyed in the 2nd death. Be sure to check out my comment!

[@A.T.266]

My problem with this is that this seems to be committing the fallacy of begging the question - this seems to assume that death/mortality negates the possibility of conscious existence. However, when I read the Bible, I see that death is a separation of body and spirit (James 2:26), not unconsciousness.

[@reneerosie]

Thank You Melissa and Clay! This was so helpful. I feel like we need a part 2...

[@kathryndinges3476]

Best interview chat ever. Thank you so much. ❤

[@missmel9605]

This was SO interesting! Thank you so much! It really makes me want to dive deeper into this topic

[@PhilGeissler]

Hi Melissa. I watched your video with Mr. Jones. I want to correct your guest on a couple things. 1 (04:25) Annihilationists do not refer to Eternal Punishment as Eternally painful. Indeed there is no conscious element to a soul that has perished and been annihilated. 2 (05:15) Anniliationism and Conditionalism are not synonymous. Not all Annihilitionists are Conditionalists.

[@repositoryofmeaning]

Yes-it seemed to me that he hadn't researched or considered annihilation at all.

[@lkqgirl3121]

The real question is: Suppose there is no hell and you can do whatever you want. Do you still want God then, or do you only have a relationship with him based on fear?

[@GloryBeToGodForever]

I have a relationship with *Jesus* because I want to and NOT based on fear. I find that many unbelievers, especially atheists, think that we Christians follow *Jesus* because we are afraid of being cast into hell and that’s not necessarily true.

[@Window4503]

I have an issue with the question. If there is no hell and people can do whatever they want then what happens to the absolute wicked people of society who make life hell for their victims. Where’s the justice? And by extension, how would you even have a loving God if he doesn’t do anything about it? After all, you said “you can do whatever you want.” The answer is that the god you describe isn’t God at all. I don’t even want that god because that god clearly doesn’t love me or anyone else enough to be just or fair. Fear would be irrelevant.

[@lkqgirl3121]

@@Window4503 I'm sorry if I offended you. I said IF there is no hell. The people you mentioned will certainly get justice. But I'm dealing with lots of confusion and religious trauma right now, so I can't bear to pursue the topic.

[@arcguardian]

@@lkqgirl3121 , but they won't get justice if there is no hell. Christians don't serve God for salvation, we serve God from salvation. I know I'm not going to hell because of what the Bible teaches, that being said, fear of hell isn't even an option for us...

[@lkqgirl3121]

@@arcguardian We are what we choose to be and we build our own hells.

[@elizabethryan2217]

I think sometimes what people who have been thru such awful trauma struggle with in being able to trust God, is the question of how a loving God would allow them to go thru what they went through/why he didn't stop it if they asked/ or if they got abused/damaged by people who claimed to be Christians, like Melissa said. Great conversation, guys 👏👏🙏

[@TheEllaTB]

I struggled with that as long as I was taught that "everything that happens is God's will", an unbiblical concept. But as long as I believed that, I saw Him as the one hurting me. When I learned that God was my Helper, not my problem. That changed everything. The church in general needs to present the truth properly and God as He presents Himself in His Word

[@Ginamations3267]

@@TheEllaTB love that "God is my helper not my problem"

[@paulaegraham]

Read and study to see if your theology is based on the Bible or Dante.

[@repositoryofmeaning]

YES. Christians can do better.

[@dfel549]

Wao! What he said about being raised in church, walking away and the returning to the lord. His question was so on point and his answer? Wao. Similar experience here. Boom 💥

[@itslaceyrae]

When did he talk about that?

[@stevenschembri1288]

Outstanding video Melissa! Ultra important topic to say the least.

[@masteringfibromyalgia]

answers are great so far. here's the thing: none of us asked to be created, and this is the problem some people have with the requirement of perfect holiness. this does lead to the question of why God made us, for a loving relationship with Him, but people find that to be unfair, they actually say they wish they were never made in the first place. I would love feedback on this. Thanks

[@theQandA]

These answers are apologetic gold. 💯

[@k.b.edwards7071]

What a wonderful teaching. Love you God bless. Praying for you. Keep straight path

[@jeremeydwinell1316]

I 100% disagree with him on people having rough lives being just as open to a deep relationship with the Lord..I'm not so sure he is right on this one...I think we as Christians need to be soft hearted understanding and loving to be a good ambassador for our Lord..just my opinion more bees with honey...God bless!

[@lacedchemist1295]

I think a good follow up question would have been what about people with mental illness either as a result of tough life circumstances or genetics as well.

[@aprilholton1150]

I remember the first time I heard an evangelist preach on Hell. I was mesmerized at the stern way this man said the facts and reality. I find myself today "warning" others of the seriousness of going to this place of torment. Most people do not want to talk let alone think about hell. It is hard to conceive in our carnal minds and human suits we have while here on earth! God bless you all to finish the race, in Jesus's precious name--Amen

[@DeaLenihan]

Only there are no facts about hell. Or god for that matter.

[@cltheman1960]

@@DeaLenihan That's what you say... Search the Scriptures, there *are* facts on those subjects, which you apparently don't know of, otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

[@bobtaylor170]

@@DeaLenihan Romans 1: 18 - 32.

[@infamouscrusader2183]

Felt the same way. I was never conflicted on the concept of hell even before I was a Christian. Now that I became Christian for years now, hell made more sense.

[@unletteredandordinary]

If Hell is an eternal place of torment then how is God not the author of eternal suffering? The God I worship seeks to end suffering for all time by throwing death and Hell into the lake of fire. We know that death at some point will be destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26) thus since death and Hell suffer the same fate then it’s reasonable to conclude that Hell is also “destroyed” is it not?

[@xbri96]

food for thought. loved this conversation. very insightful.

[@Stormrocker]

Hell seems unfair if you think you don't deserve to go.

[@arcguardian]

It seems more hellbound ppl claim it isn't fair, but the actual account of the rich man in hades never revealed he thought it was unfair. I doubt anyone in hell right now thinks it's unfair. Hell is full of liars so I imagine they'll claim it's unfair while knowing full well they are getting what they deserve.

[@maxamahnken7325]

The wicked shall become ashes under the feet of the righteous. Not live for forever in eternal suffering. Suffering shall end.

[@maxamahnken7325]

Yes! Right!

[@donnahenry3772]

So good. Thank you for this interview, Melissa.

[@traciemcdaniel3660]

Self interest. We are carnal. Our redemption is about forgiveness. Our self importance & self interests. Why did Jesus redeem us? Because of our own flesh. Wow. Good one.

[@KRoy-lx4xg]

According to the Old Testament, God is a Redeemer for His Own Name's sake! See Psalm 31:3, Jeremiah 14:7, Ezekiel 20:44, 1Samuel 12:22, Isaiah 48:9-11, and other places.

[@johnnybgoode2484]

Straight up honest. I'm a mainstream evangelical Christian who embraced the "traditional" view of eternal conscious torment for most of my life. When I was finally challenged of that belief, I did my research to prove my challenger wrong. I failed. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin for humans are death . . . destruction . . . perishing. Final death is the punishment. It is eternal because one will never return from it. Scripture teaches that ONLY those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book Of Life will enter into eternal life. Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) requires a redefinition of death and destruction. It requires some sort of life for unsaved in order to endure unending torment. Life is reserved only for God's chosen. ECT in incongruous with everything scripture says about Hell. To those who would argue that final death is not a sufficient punishment for rejection of an infinite God, I would counter that you undervalue eternal life in the presence of that same Holy God. Surely, there can be no greater tragedy than the realization that one's selfishness has required so great a cost as the ultimate paradise lost.

[@bobbycecere1037]

You sound like one of Jehovah's witnesses.

[@katherineb9815]

Well said. There's no eternal torment in the Bible, only the 2nd death.

[@johnnybgoode2484]

@@bobbycecere1037 My theology is mostly reformed. You sound like one who doesn't know what you're talking about.

[@johnnybgoode2484]

@@katherineb9815 eternal torment would require an eternal soul. This would not be present in the unsaved.

[@katherineb9815]

@@johnnybgoode2484 I agree

[@DreamersOfDreams]

Great interview, thanks. Some very interesting points made. God bless. ✝

[@mcdnum1]

There are two ends of extremes that make it difficult to come to Christ those whose life that are very easy with little to no difficulty. The rich person, if you will. And the person who is abused terribly. God can reach both.

[@GMan7418]

I hope so, I am like the rich person...

[@arcguardian]

The only thing that makes it difficult is the individual. Job had everything, and lost it. Joseph had nothing, then gained everything. Both came to God. Daniel and his friends were slave eunuchs. Demon possessed men and women, I could go on. The true difficulty comes after you receive Christ. John 15:19 New American Standard Bible 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

[@arcguardian]

@@GMan7418 put ur hope in Jesus Christ.

[@GMan7418]

@@arcguardian I struggle with truly desiring God, like the video was talking about, I have that selfish desire to not want to go to hell, my actions don't reflect my prayers for help and salvation, I get distracted and prideful and lazy, I lack a true desire to seek Him... it's been months and I'm just apathetic and numb and get distracted

[@tiletec1]

The revelations in this interview are the truth so many people don't understand. I'm getting the books. Amazing job Melissa, thank you for Bringing Clay on!

[@Not2daysatan]

Just downloaded the audiobook. Great interview!

[@Starlesslight]

I read this one time, and it made sense to me. The punishment suits the level of authority you break the rules against. If you get in trouble with your parents, they could ground you. You're punishment for breaking a local vs a federal law results in increasingly serious punishment. So breaking our infinite God's laws results in deserving an infinite punishment.

[@SillyChickens222]

That sounds really unjust…

[@imago9059]

@rw by whose rules is this unjust? Did you make the rules? Did you make yourself? Moreover, humans apply these rules with each other. If you work hard and another worker slacks, is it fair or just for both of you to be paid the same?

[@ExposingJWTeachings]

That’s actually why our government is set up the way it is. Because of it starting with the moral laws God gave. The judgement within the court is literally a reflection of the 10 commandments.

[@ExposingJWTeachings]

@@SillyChickens222 No it doesn’t. If someone murdered your loved one, would you want that person to go free just because they’re imperfect? If you created humanity and gave them a moral compass that they repeatedly go against with no remorse or repentance, would you allow them to dwell in a place of peace WITH YOU (heaven)?

[@danielsimms4262]

​@ExposingJWTeachings so eternal suffering is OK with you? Honestly?

[@ragingsilence7]

This was truly brilliant. Thank you both.

[@cassieberyl3469]

Learned so much from this. Thank you Melissa

[@kellyhiller4136]

With respect, in 1983 I said the "sinners prayer" & was genuinely changed, never been the same, totally born again. Give God a little more credit, don't put Him in a box.

[@minasaad8206]

very good interview, thanks for shining the spotlight on these type of solid debaters who can answer any question

[@estherivanoff439]

Wow, this answered a lot of my questions. Praise God.

[@nikokapanen82]

I have a question to ask for all the Christians who claim that we, human beings, all deserve to be burned in flames of fire for literal endlessness, that this is a just punishment for every one of us. Here is my problem; justice is not an evil thing, it is not a bad thing, no, justice is a good thing, it is a positive thing and all truly good things, 100%, whether it is a good car, a good idea, a good work, a good tool, a good wife a good husband, etc. always bring joy to our heart, they never bring sadness or sorrow to our hearts, this is why they are called good things and not bad things. So, the question is, if what you claim is true, if all of us justly deserve endless torment in flames of fire, then why do you not rejoice in all the countless of people who will end up there? Why doesn't your heart is being filled with joy when you realize that almost all people in the world, many of your own friends and relatives included will burn in flames of fire forever and ever? Why it brings sadness and sorrow instead? How can justice, which is a good thing, which is supposed to always bring joy and relief to our hearts, bring complete sorrow and sadness instead? How do you explain this?

[@Travis_Trauma]

Because they know eternal hell is wrong.

[@bobbycecere1037]

If our sense of justice, Which is supposed to mirror God's, tells us that it would be an abomination to torture a human soul forever then the God of the Bible would feel similarly. Even the most incorrigible human, regardless of the worst behavior possible, doesn't deserves an eternity of torment. It's just unfathomable.

[@Window4503]

Because it didn’t have to be that way. Contrary to the first two answers, the book of Revelation shows that the saints will rejoice with God when he punishes the wicked. You’re asking this question from the perspective of what we can see now. When God judges the world, we will see the full impact of their sin including things we didn’t know about the people closest to us. You’re assuming you know everything there is to know about the people in your life and that they haven’t contributed to the world’s wickedness or ruined someone’s life by a careless word or action. All you have to do is look up “things people said to me that still hurt me” to realize how much damage one person can do without anyone else knowing, even if they never commit a crime. And we all do that. And that’s just a fraction of what we do. It isn’t that hell is too big. It’s that your view of sin and evil (often especially your own) is too small. When we are with God, we will realize exactly all of the disgusting things Jesus died for on our behalf and we’ll be thankful and in disbelief that we were even rescued from punishment. Hell is sad to us now only because of our limited knowledge, the wrong belief that people are inherently good, and not wanting to lose those we care about. Which is all the more reason to share the gospel and pray for the lost.

[@bobbycecere1037]

@Window4503 And by the way, I would still disagree with you that Whatever secret sins we all commit while on this Earth could EVER be worth torture for an eternity. It's just not within the realm of reason.

[@juliep1122]

Very good point! Why would God give us a heart that hates what he does? There is NO justification for eternal Hell. Blessings ❤

[@roseannemaye9263]

There should be no doubt about levels of hell existing. The Bible uses the words 'greater damnation'. A greater damnation means there's gradation of punishment given to people going to hell. The Bible also teaches who will be 'the greatest' in heaven. There'll also be gradation of rewards in heaven.

[@bootsy70]

So correct. Amen. 🙏🙏🙏.

[@somethingyousaid5059]

Me: Hey Ray, what would demonstrate the worst possible sin? Ray: "Logically, an act of procreation on the part of two human beings." Me: Why in the world would that demonstrate the worst possible sin, Ray? Ray: "Because, in procreating they are NEEDLESSLY FORCING a fellow human being to run the worst possible risk that a human being can be made to run." Me: And what risk is that Ray? Ray: "The risk of HELL of course." Me: Oh. Ray: "Never mind that those two human beings necessarily have the option of choosing not to force him to run that unspeakable risk. And in choosing not to, they demonstrate the most merciful act that's possible. Anyway, it makes all the difference that no human being can be any the worse for not having been brought into this sinful world. After all, nonexistence itself is an intrinsically ideal default state." - That was an imagined conversation between me and the Christian evangelist Ray Comfort, that's all. -

[@JesusSaves7810]

I'm a Christian and I had too much pride and had a marriage with a man who distracted me but I'm to blame too because I wanted financial stability with him But he was married before to a black magic worker And later after he left me for her I became depressed stagnant hopeless and sad my ways of mental instability cause me more strife my relationship with GOD Taking me to a dark place and fear Which I was scared of the domestic violence I endured So I looked into tarot and telling others that tarot was wrong at the same time telling go to Jesus Christ But I wondered if I unknowingly or knowingly went to people saying that's what GOD said about the Gospel of Jesus Christ

[@gloriasiess1129]

Watch John Ramirez on youtube; he was saved from 25 years of satanism.

[@arcguardian]

? What?

[@ondreatorrence4322]

This was a really good interview !

[@The_Church_Intern]

This interview is great! Thank you guys.

[@SillyChickens222]

The Bible speaks about universal reconciliation but only God can open the eyes of some to see it and know the truth

[@CrankyBeach]

I have a friend who suffered a horrific childhood. She sought God all her life, and loves the Lord. Her sister, however, HATES God because she grew up in that same dysfunctional environment, didn't get what she wanted out of life, and blames God for not getting what she wanted.

[@grahamkey8496]

Eternal conscious torment (ECT} is only described in detail in one passage of the Bible - in Jesus'account of the suffering of Lazarus from the gospel of Luke. But a few aspects of this account are puzzling. Lazarus is able to talk to God and ask him to send prophets to his family to warn them. But most advocates of the ECT theory would link it with separation from God. So how is Lazarus able to have a conversation with Him? Also, what's Abraham doing there in the corner, sitting just above the flames? There are references to such scenes in other Hebrew writings not in the Bible. And remember all his public teaching was in parables. So is Jesus actually referencing a folk tale here for dramatic effect?

[@juliep1122]

Or perhaps he is talking about a soul who is temporarily suffering due to his fears after death and is asking God for wisdom to help him let go of his fears and embrace the light. Just another idea 🤷‍♀️ Blessings ❤

[@katherineb9815]

It's a parable. Jesus has just told at least 3 other parables before this one. It starts out, "There was a certain...", which is how some other parables begin. Look at verse 14 to see who this parable is meant for - the Pharisees. Lazarus in Greek means "God will help Me". Lazarus represents Jesus (see Isaiah 50:6-11). Verse 22 - Abraham embraces (meaning of bosom) Christ as the promised Seed. Rich man represents the descendants of Abraham who rejected Christ and are not embraced by Abraham. The 5 brothers are the 5 brothers of Levi. The Levites were to be exiled after the destruction of the Temple. The one rising from the dead in verse 31 is Jesus.

[@stevecollins5290]

Very very intriguing interview....a person can throw himself on a grenade, for his buddies, but if his motive is to "be a hero", to the army, and his family, yet the guy did not accept salvation from Christ, then that guy would not be saved. But if the guy threw himself on a grenade, and He was doing that, because the guy knew his buddy had not recieved Christ, and he didnt want his buddy to die unsaved, then it's likely that both men will be saved. "If any man loose his life FOR MY SAKE, he shall find it". Being altruistic and posting it all over Facebook is not "losing your life for Christ". Helping people and doing it in the name of Christ,and not telling anyone, is losing your life for Christ! (and one need not throw oneself on a grenade either)!! Dying to ones self, is living for Christ. On universalism: If all people got saved in the end, then Hitler got away with it. The suggestion is ridiculous, ... on eternal punishment, its difficult for humans to understand or accept, even Christians, (r.c.sproul for example). But once one enters into the spiritual realm, you will grasp it without obscurity. "We look into a glass darkly, or vaguely ". That's why theres no salvation for satans side. They had the whole picture, and told God to get lost.

[@1622-p2t]

47:30 “ why else would you make your present life so difficult for people you won’t ever know?” Real love

[@marklaws9868]

One of the best discussions I’ve ver heard. Thank you. Keep it up please.

[@repositoryofmeaning]

Melissa, in case you read this and my other comments on the video, I feel like I need to apologize for picking on this video. In general, I love your content. The doctrine of eternal conscious torment has unnecessarily driven many people away from Christianity, though. I say "unnecessarily" because the Bible clearly teaches conditional immortality.

[@cltheman1960]

Agreed. 💯

[@juliep1122]

The concept of an eternal Hell that God sends people to is unfair and barbaric. Follow your heart. Love and eternal Hell cannot coexist. Think about a child. If the child misbehaves, makes a mistake, do you throw the child into an oven? Or do you sit and talk to the child and help her understand what she did wrong, why and how she can behave better? Maybe “Justice” is not what you think it is. Try to think of how Justice could coexist with Love. Is there maybe another way to think about Justice that is Loving? It’s a good thing people are discussing this, even though I respectfully disagree with the statements in this video. Eventually as people look at this subject with honesty, they will “see the light.” Blessings ❤

[@amoleis61023]

Isn't that our humanistic version of unfair and barbaric? Why would God let people in Heaven who don't love Him? Where is the justice in that for people who repented and love God?

[@juliep1122]

Hi Hannah, thanks for your comment. I hope you’re having a great day 🥰 Jesus told us the parables of the 99 sheep and the prodigal son. I wonder if the 99 sheep thought it was unfair that the shepherd went off in search of 1 naughty sheep that had wondered off, when they had been perfectly well behaved? Maybe he should have just let it get eaten by a wolf, it would have deserved it! Or did the prodigal son’s brother feel it was unfair when his father threw a party for his brother when he returned? After all, he had been the good son all along! The good news is that God is crazy about us! Each and every one of us. No matter what we do or don’t do in this lifetime, we can’t stray too far from Him. He’s not going to give up on us just because we thought for a few years on this confusing place called Earth that we didn’t love Him. The truth is, we all do love God, but we don’t always remember it. But God knows who we are in truth. He has never stopped loving us and never will. Blessings ❤

[@amoleis61023]

Hi jp! Thanks for replying, I hope you are doing well also. I appreciate your viewpoint from the parables of the 99 sheep and the prodigal son. God does love us all. That's something we both agree on. I'm curious though as to your statement that "we all love God, we just don't always remember". Where do you find that in Scripture?

[@benstr8156]

Perhaps if we clarify what hell is. If heaven is where God is, *where do you place people who reject God* ? Well I call this place, {a place away, void of God}. This place is Hell.

[@benstr8156]

"Love and eternal Hell cannot coexist. " Yes they can. Not in the same space. Does justice exist? What are the repercussion of judgment?

[@robbyclark6915]

The story of “Jim” and his wife is the best example of why eternal suffering does and should exist. Even if someone had an eternity, they would never repent and serve the Lord.

[@katush80]

Such a great video. God is so incredibly intelligent and it's amazing to see glimpses of Him in his followers

[@stubeutler2225]

Wow, this man is nailing it. Thanks

[@niecybaby1960]

Hell, it’s such an evil act when you don’t talk about it! How many people may have been saved or could get saved if we’d talk about it not even more these day but to just talk about it. I always say, if we really thought Hell was a thing we’d be begging with our unsaved love ones every day to come to Jesus. This was great. I like Mr. Jones for his boldness. I’ll be looking him up. Thanks to both of you for shining the light on Jesus.

[@pattiramirez6257]

It seems to me that since we are created in the image of God, we have an eternal soul. When sin entered into creation through Adam, we now have eternal souls in rebellion to God. God can't tolerate evil, so we become separated from God because of evil. Hell was initially meant for the rebellious angels, but as man rebels, they too must be eternally separated from God and all that God is. God didn't just squash us because He had a plan from before time began to redeem His creation. When we realize our sinful nature, and what we deserve because of our sinfulness, and then we come to understand God's plan to redeem us, we become humbled by our realization of God's love and mercy. We become thankful and grateful, that through His plan of redemption through Jesus Christ paying our debt, we are spared our just separation from God. The more we come to realize God's great mercy, the more we fall in love with Him through his Son Jesus Christ. (There is no plan for redemption for angels because they dwelt in the very presence of God). When I consider what I understand according to Scripture, this is the summary of my understanding.

[@NubianX1963]

The wick Do Not Burn Forever. Even Jesus said it, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PEIRISH, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) Perish (G622 Greek = apollymi) Meaning: To destroy: to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

[@judygranberg4018]

But the question isn't on one's 'goodness'-- none of us are 'good' in God's eyes. It's our relationship with God. I often use an allergy based on the parable of the wedding feast-- say Kim K. Is having a party for her friends, and I am her greatest fan-- I know everything about her, I'm wearing a t-shirt that says ' I love Kim K, heart, heart'. I go to her door and try to get in to the party. But there's a guard at the door, he asks me for my invitation, but I don't have one. Then he checks his invite list, but my name is not on it. I keep saying, 'I'm her biggest fan! I know all about her!'. After a while, he calls the security people, and I will be taken away.

[@alamg043]

Just listening to this great interview ,the sin unforgivenss is one that can easily send someone to hell, their are many people who are living with hurt, because of what others have done to them, and many of them are believers, and they are holding on to grudges and resentment because of pass experience, and in that state of mind, there is no place for reconciliation, and the one's that done them wrong, they are without conscience, so their hearts is harden also, so if these two persons should die, and God should take them to heaven, there would be contention there also, in Matthew 18:23-35 Jesus spoke about that very issue,

[@deion312]

This is super good! Interesting guy

[@Ade2bee]

With regards to the different levels of hell, I think that people can rightly assume this because you will be given a position in heaven the equivalent of what you’ve done on Earth

[@LivingWithEve]

This is such a trendy topic lately!! 😂 It’s such an interesting topic too. Dr. Jason Lisle just wrote a few articles on an eternal hell and the comments exploded on his Facebook. (Also you should look into interviewing Dr. Lisle. I volunteer for his ministry and I know he would love to come on one day. It would be my two favorite people talking…😊)

[@Brian_L_A]

Dr. Lisle. LOL. Just ask him about colliding galaxies.

[@phoebewillow7273]

Interesting chat. I was surprised that your guest respected Dallas Willard though and then I was put off by the rest of the chat 😢

[@TheEllaTB]

Excellent video! Very insightful

[@shalayne9054]

Really enjoyed this and was fed and blessed by it.

[@thesparrow3902]

About the guest speaker's hypothesis that God didn't destroy the fallen angels as a lesson to us, he has NO SCRIPTURAL support. He should not be making stuff up.

[@lauragb3677]

Wow, great insights here. I’ve listened twice!

[@jeremiahbrown2989]

This dude looks like he can't wait to watch people suffer in hell for eternity. I felt like I could see a little drool on the edge of his lip during this segment. He can't wait to get to heaven so, hopefully, he can go "visit" hell and watch everyone burn. I'm surprised how unloving he seems. My question is, without the influence of others and a blank slate, what fool would truly reject God's message? Free will doesn't exist as we are shaped by our environments. Being a wealthy white male who grew up in America, probably in a Christian home has put this gentleman in a wonderful place to judge. So many questions I want to ask him...

[@majorphenom1]

Thanks for sharing 🙏🏾 His grace and mercy be upon you all and your loved ones 🕊️🥛🍯

[@jeremeydwinell1316]

From the text I would say it most likely points to eternal conscious torment but we definitely do t always interpret the Word of God in an infallible manner..the Word is infallible we are not..I can also see how one could come to an annihilation understanding as well..and from a purely philosophical interpretation leaning heavily on a metaphorical temporal reading I can see universalism..altho it is quite a stretch from pure exegesis of the Text...anyway great topic I've been reading and studying on this very topic quite a bit as of late..God bless!

[@katherineb9815]

It's very interesting that the very early church fathers in the first 200 years after Christ believed in annihilation via the lake of fire at the second death.

[@jeremeydwinell1316]

@@katherineb9815 yes I have definitely read much about that early viewpoint...and I tend to lean hopefully in that direction..

[@arcguardian]

God is well aware we are fallible, but* that didn't stop Him from describing eternal conscious torment in many scriptures regarding hell.

[@arcguardian]

@@katherineb9815 just as interesting as even earlier church members trying to project law/legalism onto the gospel of grace. Just as interesting as Paul having to rebuke Peter's behavior. U just read a comment admitting mankind is fallible, and reply by invoking the beliefs of mankind as if they are infallible.

[@christianuniversalist]

@@katherineb9815hat’s not correct at all. During the first almost 500 years of Christianity the dominant view was Universal Reconciliation, even Augustine knew that to be the case.

[@diddyant]

The doctrine of universalism was the prevailing view for the first 500 years of the church until Catholicism and Augustine popularized the idea of hell as eternal punishment.

[@SK-fp4ed]

@Daniel Mcinnes You are incorrect. The notion of Hell predates Christianity by thousands of years by Egyptian and sources of Jewish mysticism such as the Kabbalah. The Kabbalah mentions seven different divisions of Hell (including, 'Gehinnom' and 'Sheol' meaning Hades or underworld is the most common) and seven divisions of Heaven. The New Testament also refers to hell. So the concept of hell dates back to the Old Testament.

[@WilliamDeanIII]

Would you be willing to interview someone with the view of conditional immortality, such as Chris Date? It would be informative to get a comprehensive range of views on this subject. God bless!

[@repositoryofmeaning]

That would be great-one would think that a view held by the apostolic fathers and several great Bible translators and Protestant reformers would get more thorough and serious treatment.

[@WilliamDeanIII]

@@repositoryofmeaning Good point. Also, consider the appearance of Jesus in His glory. There is more depth to this encounter than we can currently comprehend. For the saints, it is the consummation of our relationship with Christ, but for the world it is the loss of the purpose of their being.

[@repositoryofmeaning]

@@WilliamDeanIII I think Isaiah 33 supports your point well: verse 12 says that the wicked "shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire." But the experience of the saints with that exact same fire is totally different: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly...(verses 14 & 15).

[@senorsenior9546]

It's really hard to understand eternity, at least it was for me, until one day I heard someone say that when you've been dead for a billion years, you will have only just BEGUN to be dead. Under such conviction, eternity should mean everything.

[@cmartn9672]

I would be interested on his thoughts of those spiritually abused from cults. Examples: Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormans etc. Who have been abused physically and spiritually to where they are no longer in religion?

[@left0verture]

… right, because WE are justified in sitting in judgment of God, telling HIM what’s fair and what’s not. Good grief. The arrogance is beyond belief.

[@Travis_Trauma]

The evil of creating a being to suffer forever is beyond belief if you don’t understand what emotional murder monkeys humans really are.

[@left0verture]

@@Travis_Trauma emotional murder monkeys. Quite the phrase, but I’m not sure what it means.

[@jackplumbridge2704]

@@Travis_Trauma If you think God created people for the purpose of them suffering forever, you haven't even understood the most basic doctrines of Christianity.

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

Lance, we are asked by God to judge Him, to "taste and see that the Lord is good." We're told to be able to judge one another righteously because we will judge angels. If you cannot justify eternal torment, but can only attack people who object to it, you are not ready to judge angels; it's you who are falling short of the standard, not them.

[@juliep1122]

Right, it’s like we are sitting and telling God He MUST send people to Hell, even if he doesn’t want to 😂

[@hallelujah969]

GOD ALMIGHTY DOES NOT SEND US TO HELL. WE SEND OURSELVES THERE.

[@stevevos2764]

Thx Melissa. This Clay guy really helped me understand Thx Clay

[@sarahsays194]

God's holiness, free will, accountability, and misunderstanding of human goodness are in a nutshell what is discussed.

[@karl5395]

Interesting part on 'symbolic immortality' that I hadn't considered before. The point raised that most of us are good seems ingrained in Western. culture. One of the last taboo subjects