Men's Rights v. Women's Rights (Jubilee): Let's Discuss

[@malatype]

Remember kids: even the Grinch supports trans people!

[@indigotrails353]

Haha 😂

[@afeeeee9097]

Holy shit really?

[@2doot]

Wait wait wait... You can't just drop this nugget of wisdom and not elaborate 😭

[@wilfojac9643]

makes sense, the grinch is super progressive cause remember he didn't actually hate christmas he hates consumerism and waste

[@theowlhouseseason3213]

Yass

[@laurensmith7573]

I respect differing opinions, but how do these guys not understand that they're perpetuating the stigma that "all women are naturally better nurturers" which makes it hard for fathers to gain rights to their own kids???

[@sophialol3960]

That’s what I was thinking, thats something they should be focusing on if they care so much about mens rights 💁‍♀️ they didn’t bring up very good reasons for being mras at least to me. I was waiting for them to bring up an actual problem

[@loganmiller7827]

@@sophialol3960 me too. I thought they would at least make one good point but as soon as they said the women are better as parents stuff I knew they weren't going to do that

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

@@sophialol3960 and I have had many female friends over my life and it's really sad at how many men tried to date them just because they're women Even as a teen I really never understood why there's people out here who think straight men and straight women can't be best friends My best friend for over 20 years is a woman and we never tried once to date even when we were single

[@sophialol3960]

@@CharlesChristinaWH the way that guy scoffed when the girl said “what if your best friend is a woman?” 🤢 I couldn’t believe that happened, it’s crazy to me how people think like that. He acted like she said “what if your best friend is a unicorn?” ;;

[@Gravite56]

Also some women are not good mothers lol

[@kerkyberky6793]

Jubilee really shot itself in the foot by going “hey, let’s debate basic human rights! This is fine and not a problem!”

[@frogofalltime]

it's so exhausting to watch

[@kiralonely]

After the trans one, I totally just, like, Jubilee is just shit imo at this point. Like, I can't support them. They feel like the white moderate viewpoint of "let's compromise" when the two sides are "having human rights" and "no human rights for you". There's no fucking compromising with that.

[@tatiana4050]

"Hey let's find middle ground between slavery and freedom"

[@_septhyus_507]

it seems to be a reoccurring theme with them

[@kirbybie]

exactly

[@mirandalee3581]

That sweet woman gave him the benefit of the doubt like “I hope you weren’t comparing women to children” and he fully with his chest said “no, I was”

[@KaitheKaotic]

Derek is making me rapidly lose so many brain cells that by the time the video is over I will be as incapable as he thinks women are 😭

[@alittlebitofjoy42]

to turn into a gender theorist for a second. the ideal man under feminism is a man who seperates his identity as a person from his identity as a man. i believe that a huge reason why men are hard to reach out to is because when masculinity is criticised, the idea of their whole identity collapses. their interests, hobbies, friendships, goals and dating life are all so intrinsically linked with masculinity that they cannot see themselves as people outside of it. for example, as a woman, i engage in behaviour socially percieved as "feminine". i crochet, i love fashion, i watch chick flicks. but i dont do these things because i derive my identity from femininity, i just enjoy them. when women as a social group are criticised, i can remove myself emotionally and realistically examine my own behaviour and decide whether the criticism applies to me, then take appropriate action. most men cant do that, because they cant seperate their personhood from their manhood. which is also why a lot of men push back against feminism - they find comfort in masculinity, as its what they were raised to know, and feel like feminists are denying them that. we arent. we just want you to experience things outside of what you believe as being acceptable under the convention of masculinity.

[@pamelam1101]

yes this, maybe you should be a gender theorist lol

[@starsonapollo2]

I'd love to hear more about ur opinion on this

[@fusionspace175]

You're describing toxic masculinity as if it's the only kind there is. Positive masculinity can pretty much be defined by its tolerance and acceptance of femininity as part of ourselves, tempering the toxic male's worst qualities into useful ones. Strength used to defend the innocent is a virtue, used to attack unjustly, it is an evil. Aggression, tempered by compassion and directed by wisdom, becomes motivation. By a similar token, toxic masculinity can be defined as containing that hatred of femininity, seeing it only as weakness, or simply resenting it for their inability to own or access it, for the pain to their pride that that causes them. I don't think they reject criticism out of anything but willful ignorance and uncritical self-assurance, though. I don't think identity enters into it, they just think they're right about everything and unwilling to examine it, sort of like some religious people who might be described as zealots. Sad to say, a large part of it is also fear of homosexuality, which they see as right next door to femininity. It might seem a minor distinction, but I guess all I'm saying is that they don't lack the ability to have that imagination, only the will to actually use it to achieve anything like empathy.

[@starsonapollo2]

@@fusionspace175 I agree somewhat but I don't see how it connects to the comment you replied to?

[@fusionspace175]

@@starsonapollo2 The first sentence is the connection. It's just meant to show there is positive masculinity and to outline the difference. The example I cite the most is Superman.

[@Xenawarriorprince]

"I can't be friends with a woman" and they wonder why they are still single lmao my boyfriend literally got together with me because one of his lesbian friends came up to me at a bar, hyped him up and gave me his number and we've been together for 5 years since and yes, he is also my best friend. If you can't even be friends with a woman, how do you think being in a relationship with one is going to work? Like if you don't even like a person enough to be platonic how can you honestly say that you like them romantically? 'Cause if I don't even want to be there for someone as a friend, chances are I'm not going to want to be around them in any other kind of meaningful way.

[@technoloverish]

The idea that the potential for their to be attraction between men and women makes it impossible to be buddies also ignores the fact that some men are gay and some women are lesbian. So at the very least, they'd have to concede that a gay man and a lesbian woman can be friends with each other

[@strawberryj3lly]

My bf and I were definitely friends before we dating. Oddly enough it was literally enemies to lovers; I disliked him for awhile until we hit high school then the feelings came and well it’s been 3 years.

[@MintyFreshCupcakes]

Me and my husband started out as friends! He's still my best friend. Many of my friends also happen to be men

[@Snowicorn]

I'm demiromantic and I wouldn't be dating my bf for 1,5 years now if I didn't see him in a discord sever and think "wow he seems like an interesting person, I'd like to be friends with him" and he felt the same. We started chatting and realised we have a lot in common. After a couple months he said that he might have a crush on me and when I started thinking about it I realised I feel the same and that's how we ended up together. It's stupid to say who people can and can't be friends with based on gender/sex because it has nothing to do with friendship.

[@FLESHTHING]

shout-out to whoever his lesbian friend was! as a gay guy, MLM and WLW solidarity is always fun to see (I assume you're not MLM, just sharing my experience! go lesbians go)

[@nataliee5236]

"The wage gap doesn't exist" my roommate literally last year was getting paid less than the men under her who were hired after her.

[@MissMoontree]

wage gaps vary. In Belgium it was 3% (when compensated for all logical reasons) 5 years ago but it seems to be 0 now? Part of the reason probably is partner/paternity leave? In the Netherlands it was at 7% when I looked it up. This is when compensated for all arguments men bring up against it (field, experience, hours, education). This doesn't mean there is no place to talk about the 19% or why masculine fields earn more and feminizing the field lowers wages, because we all as society value feminine things less.

[@ACE360x]

@@MissMoontree typically masculine jobs tend to involve more danger thus pay more. Also men, when surveyed, often say they are willing to make more sacrifices for wealth and status so... Not me though, if I can live on my pay then im good

[@nataliee5236]

@@ACE360x have you ever questioned why those things are true? Your train of thought doesn't have to stop there, but it does bc if you go any further you'll realize it's toxic masculinity.

[@mothboy420]

@@ACE360x not for lack of women trying to do "masculine" or "dangerous" jobs. They just get harassed out of them,,, whoch is part of the problem

[@cattrickie]

for real!! plus at work women dont get listened too or respected the way men are

[@stickinug]

You made a great point about how MRAs don't focus on the things feminists do. If they'd focus on marginalized men, I could 1000% get behind their movement. Instead it's just a whiney reaction to feminism. Ironic thing is half the crap they whine about is a product of the patriarchy, not feminism.

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

That's why I won't support mgtows, incels and manosphere channels They don't point out actual legit issues men face the one guy at least pointed out some men's issues that are valid But they all parrot the same tropes

[@LoneWulf278]

Exactly. But they’re still in the bargaining stage with patriarchy because it still offers them status over women. They don’t think they have any privilege to gain from feminism. That’s why it’s easier to antagonize.

[@manderly33]

And part of their issue is that they hear “partriarchy” and think “all men.” Which is absolutely incorrect. The patriarchy can be and is propped up by people of all genders.

[@kiralonely]

I like to mention Men's Lib as an actually healthy version of that shit. Instead of blaming women or shitting on women, it focuses on how the patriarchy harms and affects men and helping them untangle themselves from that and look inward and try to break free of those issues. Patriarchy hurts everyone except the elite few who perfectly fit the hegemonic masculinity concepts laid out, and I really think having a community like Men's Lib is super important for men, helping build up that community and using a feminist view to focus on what we can do to help men, without putting blame on any gender or person, but on the systems that brought us here.

[@Roanmonster]

I feel like Zach when involved longer in the conversation would really start to see that (true) MRA's and the feminists are actually on the same side

[@orvynn]

derek essentially equating women to children and being attracted to women yet seeing them as children🤨🤨

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

I unfortunately watched a video by expose the manosphere on the "ripe age" incels, mgtows and manospheres bragging about waiting for teen girls to turn 18 to "get them while they're Young"

[@GoodWormDoctor]

I dont believe in calling the police, so, im just gonna get the crowbar myself

[@jadecoolness101]

@@GoodWormDoctor The police wouldn't do anything anyways. Police have a habit of letting s3x criminals roam free.

[@GoodWormDoctor]

@@jadecoolness101 the police would hunt me down for kneecapping a pedo

[@jadecoolness101]

@@GoodWormDoctor Your comment got auto deleted for having the word p3d0 in it uncensored. but Yeah, of course the police would hunt you down for kneecapping a p3d0, you hurt one of their own.

[@lisapeesalemonsqueezah3241]

He's TOTALLY wrong about womens neurobiology and neuroanatomy. He must have only studied using incel forums because if he went through an actual college or university class on neurology he would know that yes, cis-womens brain size tends to be smaller, but that's not an indicator of lower intelligence. The small difference in size is made up for by being more efficient. Same capacity for information, decision making, problems solving etc, different surface area. This has been proven time and time again. This man has never read a modern research paper on the human brain. Absolutely not.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

if brain size was a reliable indicator of brain power, blue whales would be supercomputers and ants wouldn't even be able to walk, much less carry out complex tasks

[@Friend-]

From what I've read, cis women's brains are smaller because their bodies are smaller and you need more brain matter to control a larger body, not because their brains are more efficient. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, though! I know that at least at the species level, total brain size doesn't correlate to intelligence, but brain size relative to body size does, because a larger body needs a larger brain.

[@pinchetii6555]

I’m literally reading about this in my class

[@onemore4567]

derrick the incel right? lmao he used the same logic slave masters used to deny black people human rights

[@AleksandarBell]

@@Friend- Yeah it’s like why someone with bigger thighs have bigger ankles, it’s just simple proportions

[@smartcakes303]

Ugh I HATE when men don't understand what toxic masculinity is and fight against it. I'm a big, bearded man and I've experienced so much toxic masculinity and I've struggled to recognise that in the past few years. We gotta recognise and admit this men, people aren't against us. They want to support us.

[@dollbowz]

exactly! as frustrating as toxic masculinity is to women/fem ppl, it's hurtful to EVERYONE and that includes men. like i know MRAs get super into that as an identity but ... i'm absolutely certain a life where you aren't constantly about half the population for no real reason is far better than the ones these guys currently live

[@clashwithwords]

thank you!!!

[@marleesgrace]

We appreciate you!

[@kokomi270]

Yes omg my dad is the same 😍😍

[@views-kb6sv]

No they don't. Feminists constantly blame us for the problems privilleged men cause and compeltley ignore or downplay our issues.

[@Riverr5]

We stan women’s rights in this household.

[@Imscaredofeverything]

Hell yeah!

[@brisebastiano4974]

Preach you beautiful human!

[@crashoflogic]

We stan bare minimum

[@averie_avenger]

@@crashoflogic and how exactly is that the bare minimum?

[@sam_scram]

@@averie_avenger I think they mean it in the sense of having the bare minimum be equality for all (Even though not everyone is currently equal) 😅

[@nothinkin69]

Bro those women looked so uncomfortable during the entire time they talked to the "Men's rights" activists, ESPECIALLY when talking to the incel

[@AngelinaParker]

I hate to make this analogy cause comparing humans to animals doesn't help anything, but it's like being a seal near orca surrounded waters with this. You can't feel comfortable around people who want women to be only sex slaves/incubators. Just be glad those men had control and were surrounded by the production company cause if those men didn't have control or the production company around, those women would have been in danger.

[@miaposamarie226]

As a Hispanic Id be uncomfortable around a KKK member. Women can feel the predatory nature

[@kuromistan645]

@@AngelinaParker this is so true... Obviously they were uncomfortable around people who saw them as less than human, only good for reproduction and didn't think of them as worthy of more things. I feel bad for these intelligent ladies.

[@EsmeraldaTGG]

​@@AngelinaParker I'd say the comparison to animals is justified when it serves not to degrade any group, but rather to paint a clearer picture of the feelings discussed for those who might not fully grasp it immediately! That's what your analogy does, so it's completely fair game in my books!

[@deerinheadlights7179]

this is unfortunately common and tragically very much needed, in this case the women cant really express themselves fully or jump straight to the issue because despite what men say about direct communication and not taking things personally, they will most likely be emotionally affected and become defensive or aggressive later using this interaction as further proof for their own views. The women cannot afford to leave a bad impression, they are constantly aware that they are in danger and need the help of other men. This is of course not limited to women but anyone who does not fit in with the norm of their surroundings.

[@gsuaveyt]

the thing about mens rights is that they can have some good points about stuff like emotional repression and suicide rates and shit but they see the word feminism and assume its about misandry and shit and that the term "toxic masculinity" is calling masculinity in general toxic and not just referring to the ideal that is pushed by much of societal norms

[@J_Lynn]

they can have some good points, but upsettingly often they use those points to try and make themselves sound superior. A good example is the suicide rates one. Women attempt suicide at a much higher rate than men, but men fail their attempts at a lower rate. I couldn't count how many times men have bragged about how males succeed more and say stuff like "men mean it, women are just looking for attention". If they could express their talking points without demeaning women, people would be far more willing to listen, but unfortunately, no... they're always about demeaning others.

[@sabsain2399]

Men die of suicide more because they choose more violent methods of killing themselves. Not because they actually commit suicide more than woman do

[@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792]

@@J_Lynn that’s what your doing your taking a problem that men face and saying that women have it worse. women don’t end up going through with it because deep down they don’t want to die(obviously this is not all women who try to commit suicide). with men they truly want to die because they know no one cares about them. no man is gonna come up and ask to be friends and women are definitely not gonna come up to you. people only care about men if they are successful, if not no one gives a fuck. it is became many men are truly lonely and truly just don’t have anything to live for.

[@jadecoolness101]

The only reason male su1cide is higher than women's is because we wrongfully don't consider death from other self harming behaviors, like eating disorders, as su1cide. There's also the fact that women TRY more often and fail. Often the reasons cited for why they didn't use a more effective method were that there would be a mess to clean up and it'd upset their family/friends/whoever finds them. Whereas men just Do The Thing and get it done with no concern for the aftermath that someone has to deal with. Which is honestly deeply saddening as it gives a perfect summary of male socialization vs female socialization. Women are taught, that even in DEATH, they are not allowed to be selfish.

[@sabsain2399]

@@jadecoolness101 I'd like to add that since women's social maneuverability is so limited and they're nearly always surrounded by people they're dependent on (parents, husband, brothers, relatives)- it's difficult for them to isolate themselves and like you said, commit to violent methods of suicide the way men can. The idea that women's mental health is taken any more seriously than that of men's is utterly laughable.

[@GenerationRapper]

Wild how the women had to hold back the whole time and the men got to say whatever they wanted without fear of consequence… almost as if… nah…

[@manderly33]

Seriously. The women are biting their tongues the whole time.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@manderly33 SERIOUSLY. The men were spouting the most toxic, vitriolic misogyny meanwhile you KNOW if one of the women got rightfully upset the men would’ve played the victim

[@kuromistan645]

Almost as if we live in a patriarchy where men aren't properly held accountable for their actions-

[@JohnDoe-se1xm]

Nah I think they were just visibly stunned about the amount of Bs that was being slung

[@vb2806]

Why are they holding back? What would happen if they didn't hold back?

[@onlycorndog6322]

Did anyone else get wigged out by Derrek saying "people and women" like they're different things? That's a pretty scary mindset.

[@eviem.9141]

a very concerning amount of men genuinely believe that women are sub-human or not human.

[@Hat-Kid]

@@eviem.9141 how much?

[@calicoscloverleaf]

@@Hat-Kid Depends on what society you live in, as it varies. There's also not a specific study done to give a definitive answer. No one can really give you a good number, but regardless of how many it is, women interact with men like that on a daily basis. So, definitely enough to run into them often

[@koii319]

@@Hat-Kidi dont think there is an exact chart or number because very few men would actually admit that they think this way even if they do. But some examples of men treating women as inferior/less than human are: Being ashamed of having “womens traits”, not letting women vote, not taking women seriously, thinking they are more skilled or intelligent, etc.

[@EsmeraldaTGG]

His entire way of speaking, down to the inflections in his tone, creeped me the hell out! "I don't hate women" my ass!

[@river-collective]

I grew up as a girl and got a lot of the "stop crying" things and was met with a lot of aggression from my father, so I personally experienced and still experience the "bottling up your emotions" thing as a now adult trans guy. And while I understand the feeling of hiding that you have any emotions, it's something these men's rights activists should maybe work through instead of blaming it on women. (Using girl because while most trans men don't feel like they were even girls, some do, I do)

[@starsonapollo2]

It's cool to see someone who regards their adolescent experiences as still being "a girl" because I think it is difficult to speak on my experiences being trans while also acknowledging I lived and experienced those things (and still do in certain cases)

[@mightymeatymech]

I am non binary and I refer to my childhood self as a girl, too

[@Jade0603]

I’m a trans woman who was raised by a single mom. I never got the “don’t cry” thing from immediate family but I did get it from boys in school, and my grandparents. I was pushed a lot to bottle up my emotions in middle school but it only resulted in unnecessary suffering and continuation of impulsive behavior. I’m convinced society would be better if honesty and opening up was more acceptable, and that’s not just caused from toxic masculinity but also toxic positivity.

[@frownyclowny6955]

I don’t think most people pushed me to bottle up my emotions when I was younger, but I guess because my all my friends when I was little were boys and because of shitty middle school years, I still felt pressure to “be strong” and devalue my feelings as something weak or getting in the way of logic. Now I realize that doing that only ever caused me suffering. I cant imagine the pain men must feel having that actively pushed on them instead of absorbing it through immediate friends or bad influences

[@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792]

the men on this are all pretty bad tho the incel dude kinda just fucked it up for everyone but the reason that masculinity is a this is a defensive tactic. we are told to toughen up because that’s just how the world treats men. the problem of masculinity is not the fault of the individual but of women and men because both don’t want to see a weak man. the world only cares about men who have made it so you box up your emotions to avoid being made fun of by both women and other men.

[@thoughtfuldevil6069]

I have been miserably lonely for months at a time before in life, once more than a year, and I still never caved to the Incel cocoon. Their movement isn't about constructively coping or improving themselves, but about venting their vitriol at innocent targets who have more in common with them then they will accept or realize.

[@teeess1909]

I notice myself thinking certain incel thoughts about women, catching myself thinking some douche thoughts. But no human owes anyone anything!

[@LoneWulf278]

That last part.

[@lindseyhendrix2405]

@@teeess1909 dig the transparency but might I ask for an example of said incel thoughts that cross your mind?

[@thoughtfuldevil6069]

@@LoneWulf278 What about it?

[@emmmahezw]

@@lindseyhendrix2405 omg hi Lindsey

[@merlt8238]

I have seen other people talk about this Jubilee video and one excellent point another KZbinr made was that these two sides were an unfair match. The three men all describe themselves as activists or campaigners for mens rights and have a background in debating these topics. The three women did a great job, but it doesn't seem like any of them were activists or used to defending these points. It would have been interesting for these three men to have discourse with feminists who are activists or campaigners who really know the topic and have talking points and facts to back up their points. The three women did a good job, but were obviously not experienced so the male activists were able to state things confidently enough and pass them off as fact. I feel like if they came up against someone who was a more experienced orator they would have been destroyed.

[@MeMarcusTheCreator]

Hmmm 🤔

[@hazelsingh3887]

Yeah, Tara Mooknee discussed this in her video about Jubilee! It’s a great watch!

[@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792]

would have said the exact opposite they clearly knew what they were doing with the incel and knew that he would say some bs. the first time i saw him i was like damn the rest of them could be gandhi and we still lose because he’s gonna say some blatantly sexist shit. for everyones good they should remake this and include people who know about mens problems and aren’t professional 4chan sexist

[@lianejaeger8708]

The ladies made excellent points, but I agree they should have had an activist to help drive the pints being made. I really didn't like how they ended it with the one guy dismissing feminism as being misguided without any rebuttal. I feel that would stick with some as the take away point of the video. But anyway, yes, I think you're right and having activists and campaigners could potentially have brought stats and research.

[@kellycowley3535]

+Merl T To be fair though the two men had Derek (yellow jacket guy) with them. (I am half joking with this comment haha :))

[@madelineroberson5073]

“but more men are incarcerated/ on death row than women!” um yea, women are viewed as meek & less capable of violence, so they’re often not found guilty for the same crime, that’s a problem. (not talking SA, other violence) Men are also raised to suppress other emotions except anger, which leads to more violence = more crimes = more incarceration… you’re almost there bro just think

[@miad6160]

Men also commit like 90% of all murders, I sure hope there’s more men than women on death row 😬

[@miad6160]

If there wasn’t- that would mean women are being punished far more harshly than men

[@pamelam1101]

There are also a lot less women in prison for violent crimes. A study also suggests that women may be sanctioned more harshly when their behavior violates sex-role stereotypes, which is funny. Men accounted for 80.4% of violent crime, so I wonder why they're incarcerated more and put on death row more often.

[@talkingtochapri]

It's actually the opposite women are given harsher sentences and less socially acceptable after the crime. Nobody gives excuses saying a boy will be a boy when a woman makes mistake. In the 25 years of my life, I have never seen violent women but I have seen many violent men. The amount sa, pedo cases most men are not even taken seriously until they have done it multiple times.

[@MissMoontree]

And in hell "feminist" (by account of right wing men) Europe less people are in prison and no man can get death penalty... curse you feminists!

[@eliasjohansson]

i really don’t get how people can’t see how great women are??

[@stickinug]

I think they can see it, and that's why they try so hard to keep women down. I think they're threatened by the fact that women are just as capable as they are, and in many cases women are more capable. They're afraid of becoming irrelevant.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@stickinug Basically yeah

[@saturngirl3748]

@@stickinug Very well put just what I was thinking the other day they get some sort of ego boost out of making women feel inferior to them. I've actually never had a woman do this to me at all. The same way some feminists try to emasculate men they try to interfere in some way with her feminity by trying to mold her into the type of women that he finds attractive and if you don't meet that standard or you try to challenge him or compete with him in any way he doesn't count you as a woman as if being feminine is about losing and selling out to men. It's not because a real woman wouldnt cater to any man if he's not accurate in what he's saying to you. Men are actually not more attractive then women either because even the cute guys look terrible in a dress.

[@jjmitch1411]

You had us in the first half

[@manderly33]

@@kingbael6903 You can be sexually into whoever you want, dude. Nobody cares about your boner.

[@zoinks1333]

y’all. the incel is bringing up studying evolutionary biology “A LOT.” YOU ARE SPEAKING TO SOMEONE WITH A DEGREE IN HEALTH SCIENCES BRO 😭

[@frogofalltime]

don't be silly. she's a little baby GIRL. women don't have degrees, they have children 🙄 /s

[@bababouibababoui4726]

By ‘studying’ he probably means Reddit pseudo science or read like one website on biology from 2007 and twisted what it said to fit his ideas

[@sighcantthinkofaname]

I legitimately think I give more respect to children than Derek gives to women.

[@rivkavermeij]

Lol yes same

[@zehrakamal]

Isn’t that like most men lmao

[@littlemissmello]

I mean, I would hope so

[@IsThatAShortJoke]

There is nothing biologically that makes women better than men with childcare. Part of the reason people may be less comfortable with men in childcare positions is the idea that it's weird for them to want to do that as a career or the idea that they might be predators. These are legitimate systemic criticisms of how society views men in childcare and as an intersectional feminist, I would like to try and abolish these stereotypes and stigmas.

[@Djsokdkfjdkd]

@@markprice5651 If you keep thinking that way then obviously no progress will happen. Giving up isn't a solution. If you're a men's rights activist then shouldn't you be trying to do something? Honestly that's all I expect of MRAs because a majority of them don't do anything for men.

[@sabsain2399]

@@Djsokdkfjdkd ignore him, he's a troll going aroung this comment section pulling dogshxt arguments out of his ass

[@sabsain2399]

@@markprice5651 sorry mark, you're not getting that tradwife who's submissive, subservient and completely dependent on you

[@user-vc9mv8jw8d]

Saying that we should go back to the "good ole day" in front of a black woman is crazy. How nobody has ever punched someone is beyond me.

[@bebsmillane]

right like all the men where such assholes t

[@isisclark5389]

this issue with this jubilee video is that it feels like they literally just grabbed women off the street who agree that they should be treated like humans and put them up against men who dedicate their lives to this topic bc they couldn’t get vagina one time

[@transnightwalker7973]

Trans guy trucker stuck in WY thanks to wind and I have to say the Sinmas series is keeping me sane right now. Yet another great video in the series. Being a gay trans guy who transitioned in my 30s, I have to say some of the topics discussed here are part of why I feel so detached from cishet male culture. I wasn’t raised the same way they were. I was socialized as girl growing up and it makes me look at the world in a way cis guys really can’t. I actually know on a deep level what it’s like to be harassed the way women are because, before I transitioned, I experienced it firsthand. I know in that same way what it’s like to be talked over in a work meeting and have a cismale coworker repeat what I’ve been trying to say and get praised for my ideas because I’ve experienced it first hand.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

as someone born and bred in wyoming, you have my condolences

[@transnightwalker7973]

@@Romanticoutlaw I’ve been stuck in Laramie for three days already because the winds have been too high for how light my load is…. The wind in this state is a nuisance.

[@kuromistan645]

Not to be nosy but at what age did you discover you were actually a guy?

[@transnightwalker7973]

@@kuromistan645 First put the pieces together when I was about 20 and saw the documentary Trans Generation but research I did at the time only really showed me people being rejected by their families and having to move away to “start fresh” and basically cut ties to their families, friends, and entire prior lives. That scared me right back into the closet almost immediately and I stayed in a cycle of denial and acceptance for about a decade until KZbin gave me access to creators showing that being trans wasn’t something that automatically meant leaving your whole life behind to transition and that you could be both gay and trans as basically all trans representation before was of straight trans people. Edit: If you’re asking when I first realized I was a guy overall, I had those feelings basically my whole life, I just didn’t realize it meant I was trans until later. I was what most would have called a “tomboy” growing up and when I was really young I liked that because it had ‘boy’ in it so in my mind it meant people saw me as the boy I was.

[@KatieStAmand]

The way these men describe being victims of toxic masculinity while claiming it’s not real

[@photoshallow]

It's called being an asshole

[@Berlinscott1]

“Mom, he hit me” = “It’s because he likes you” or “Boys will be boys” Those responses piss me off to no end

[@Hat-Kid]

does it depend where u live? cause one time a girl got hit at my schoool, she told her mom, and the mom called the school and the boy had dentention for 2 days

[@XxLostFinalGirlxX]

I was lucky enough to not be abused by boys and just had simps who didn't hurt me (not even kidding my schoolmates were weird) but I was also told to stay away from boys who try to hurt me because in the adults in my life words "it is very untrue that a boy will hurt you if he likes you and if a boy hits you that's not ok"

[@koii319]

@@Hat-Kiddamn only detention? in my school physical assault is cause for expulsion.

[@Hat-Kid]

@@koii319 then i guess my school is batshit crazy.

[@mar420.74]

​@@koii319your schools probably just extreme i got suspended once for defending myself against a teacher (loud yelling) and when a fight breaks out there just suspended for a few days, even a guy i know that filmed some other dude in the bathroom got suspended for a couple of days and nothing more, meanwhile i just got kicked out of their school for poor attendance. right after I just came back for finals, fuck schools man

[@Clownbunnycosplay]

Men obviously can’t just harass whoever they want, and that’s terrible for them, poor men :(

[@Goose-pic]

Right?? Men have never been so oppressed by women😢😢

[@theshermantanker7043]

@@Goose-pic Y'know, it's people like you who sparked my self hating phase as a man, where I thought literally everything I did was hurting women and that I was a burden to them just by existing. Ironically it was women who weren't deep into feminism or the misogyny veiled as men's rights that saved me and dragged me out of this hole by my collar, and I am deeply grateful to every single one of them for that, but really, I hope you lot can look into yourselves and do some self-reflecting

[@solus8685]

Ikr, poor bawbies 🥺🥺💔

[@InChristWeTrust999]

Men get harassed by other men. If I’m in the hood we only jack other men, none of my friends would rob a woman

[@luisfilipe2023]

Women can’t claim they were harassed after initiating the harassment poor women 🤡

[@Baskettiii]

Derrick always triggers my fight or flight when I see him in these

[@the.hollow.artist]

It's probably because he talks like he's reciting a Joker quote

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

@@the.hollow.artist oh trust me all incels are in love with joker and view him as some savior

[@technoloverish]

Honestly, he's extremely creepy, but would be way less creepy and more likable if he changes his attitude/views

[@sabsain2399]

@@technoloverish he's still disgusting, bigoted and gross. I don't think a change of attitudes can redeem what he's done at this point

[@technoloverish]

@@sabsain2399 I believe people can change, though I think he's probably too far down the rabbit hole to have much likelihood of returning. I just wish people like him would do more self-reflection

[@giuliannamendez7016]

purr I love women's rights

[@viktor5783]

NO WAY! Me too🙊💨 what a crazy coincidence 💅

[@rainiidraws]

OMG me too!!!!

[@aaAa-bp1yd]

Omg same, I was literally watching an alpha podcast and all they talked about was about how men are virgins, yet blame women for not taking men’s problems seriously 😭 like fr dude, talk about more relevant issues men face instead of just talking about how men don’t get laid, meanwhile there are women doing so much research and covering in depth topics that affect them

[@lovesdramas]

I love rights for all who identify as women and those who have uteruses as well

[@20sidedd]

Kittens and women's rights are the best things on the planet❤️, a genderfluid woman here,lmao

[@chichithemirchi]

When Annemarie said “if you are an OG sinner” I felt so proud of myself 🥹

[@DeathnoteBB]

I was scrolling the comments looking for anyone else who recognized him!

[@AnnamarieForcino]

thank u for being here for so long

[@chichithemirchi]

😘😘

[@hyunjinsanity]

Saamme!!

[@Maybe_Olivia]

@@AnnamarieForcino I havent been here for long (still recognised the incel) but I've just been absolutely binge watching your videos because they are hilarious

[@kaviweaver5152]

Jubilee seems to be invested in finding very articulate and well "researched" right wing speakers , while the more left positions are often spoken from passion and personal experience, and aren't usually primed with the same talking points. They also seem to be very comfortable implying that the normative right wing perspective is actively aligned against marginalized groups , as in the episodes featuring conservative people and trans people. The episode featuring "conservative women vs trans women" was a particularly egregious example of these behaviors, where a transphobic speaker from PRAGER U was included in the conservative side (Jubilee also included citations from the research she cited) whereas the channel did not feature any trans people who are remotely as involved in activism or public speaking. I had to hold myself back from trying to correct any of the misinformation she spouted in the comments. I don't want to give Jubilee any more algorithm money, and I don't want transphobes flooding me with bullshit either. Would Love to see commentary on these recent vids, or just to talk here in the comments with anyone else who rage watched

[@wormfoodd8]

havent seen that vid (and i dont rlly want to it sounds horrible lol) but yeah these vids fucking suck and jubilee literally perpetuates the “if they talk calmly then their opinion must hold merit and we must respect them and accept their horrible viewpoint” rhetoric

[@XxTheSoundOfRainxX]

I think you may be onto something with this. I remember when the jubilee channel first launched and they did the evangelical thing of being a watered down version of whatever is trendy *but christian* in jubilees specific case, being wongfu/buzzfeed/cut studios but Christian and family friendly. I was very Christian at the time and I noticed when they got more subtle with their faith stuff, but the biases must still be there

[@dianalove539]

Um. If they cant find any articulate and rational leftists to speak in their shows maybe thats not a jubilee issue but rather, a leftist issue?

[@xtinkerbellax3]

@@dianalove539 If you honestly believe that there are no rational leftists you need to self reflect on your biases.

[@dianalove539]

@@xtinkerbellax3 name one and ill check them out

[@malashepherd653]

17:40 AHAHA Derrick trying to not say “females” instead of women. The F fully came out

[@Summer512]

It's very tiring when people come out with "men and women are just biologically different in the brain" to cover for the fact that they personally just don't want to learn how to do the things they don't associate with their gender.

[@Lemoncakelover678]

Yeah, the only way that works is if it's in a physical sense but other than our bodies, were basically the same

[@miaposamarie226]

And the crazy part is that they are wrong. There is no biological difference in the brain.

[@koii319]

it is also ableist in a way. They’re basically saying that people who cannot think exactly like them, or does not have the capability to think like them, are sub-human. For example, lets pretend in some incel’s wet dream where women are biologically less intelligent than men. By their argument, it is tolerable to treat women like animals. Theyre using mental ability to determine someone’s worth, which is a big part of ableism.

[@girlpopladyboots]

as a woman i like having rights 😍😍

[@chuupinou]

omg me too 🥰🥰

[@JinxPropaganda]

I thought I was the only one🥰

[@triangularsphere]

Woah that’s a little far there 🙄

[@tashaax1993xanimalloverx]

But don't mind men taking them away?

[@BurningRubber454]

Congats you have more rights then men

[@mjchristian2404]

the video ending with the girls hugging and the men awkwardly shaking hands perfectly summarizes masculinity vs femininity. men are told they should not display outright affection while women are never told this, and often told the exact opposite. men often refuse to display affection (even when it would be appropriate) because they are scared of “acting feminine” and that’s where the real problem of toxic masculinity lies. I often find as a women i’m able to pick and choose who i show affection to, how much, and how often because me shaking someone’s hand wouldn’t make me be considered as masculine, and even if it did i wouldn’t be offended! men are taught there is something inherently negative, weak, and insignificant about being feminine and they’ll avoid it at all costs

[@paulhammond6978]

I noticed also that the women went in for the hug, and the men were watching, and *then* one of them decided "oh, I guess we should all shake hands". Having said that, if I was meeting a bunch of strangers for a chat like this I don't think I'd feel comfortable going in for a hug with them at the end of the show.

[@onimikola]

They're afraid to hug the opposite sex because of me too movement, they are playing safe not to touch these Feminist Women...

[@babyturkey8342]

My boyfriend has full custody of his 9 year old son and he is the most gentle but most stern, kind, loving man. His 9 year old is incredibly smart, sweet, well behaved and well mannered. I still am shocked how amazing this little boy is. His mother sucks. So NO women are not automatically the better parent

[@lovestumacher]

Thank you! When the MRA brought up that “women are just automatically more nurturing and better at childcare” argument, I immediately had to laugh. Have they ever heard of Dianne Downs, Ruby Franke, or Ted Bundy, Edmund Kemper, and Charles Manson’s mothers(those examples are a bit extreme but still)? So many women are incapable of being mothers just as much as many men *are* capable of being nurturing and loving fathers who take on the roles traditionally associated with women.

[@becka3627]

Honestly it feels like these “pro mens rights” guys are not only demeaning women but also their fellow men? By saying men don’t know how to be caregivers, your discrediting the idea that men can be just as nurturing and caring as women? Just because society discourages men from being vulnerable or emotionally available doesn’t mean they’re incapable? I feel like what this argument boils down to is Society says, “You have to live in the box your put in!” feminism says, “The box isn’t necessary bc you made it up.” and mens rights activists yelling, “There’s nothing wrong with the box! The box is there for a reason!”

[@sabsain2399]

lmfao. "I have to work, be strong, not cry and provide for my family. Women get really stressed out when they do jobs and will have mid life crisis because they'll regret not being a god loving housewife with children!!!" Have fun.

[@DeathnoteBB]

Basically, yeah. You hit the nail on the head.

[@theshermantanker7043]

Yeah, they're giving us men a bad name, and then channels like Annamarie take their unhinged takes and plaster it all over youtube to make it look like men are just these misogynistic fuckers foaming at the mouth to make women suffer. It's channels like her that started my self-hating phase as a man, because I thought that just by existing I was oppressing women. When I say I don't like these sorts of channels, that's my reason why, but everyone in the comments tells me I'm just a patriarchal sexist that's upset my "harrassment of women is being called out". Ever wonder why men's mental health seems to be so bad? You have part of the reason right here, but it's always dismissed as "Men brought it upon themselves by upholding the patriarchy" anyway, so why bother

[@sabsain2399]

@@theshermantanker7043 the fxck are you talking about lmfao? There's already WAY too many channels, youtube communities, content creators, commentary channels, other communities on reddit and twitter that are constantly demeaning and insulting women 24/7 and we can't even have a select few channels that call out shitty men? What does this all have to do with the alleged claim of "men's health being taken less seriously than that of women's." And no... Annamarie doesn't do any of the things you described- your problem is entirely specific to you, lmao. I've never heard of men getting depressed over patriarchy and misogyny getting called out. If you're so distraught and upset over the way patriarchy and misogyny has negatively affected you (telling men they can't cry, that they have to work their asses off to financially support adult women and children, marriage courts and unfair treatment, getting drafted against their will etc.) then maybe you should support channels like Annamarie's at the very least? If anyone also watches this video and seeks to generalize all men as bad; then that's on them, not on Annamarie

[@nox7919]

I do not have the patience for these jubilee videos, bravo to you for standing this absolute garbage. Every single point these dudes were spouting-and then tuning out the women-made me crazy argh

[@KSangel180]

I feel you! It's hard to sit hear and not feel like throttling these douches!

[@bertmobile]

yeah....... in my defense i was twelve

[@kuromistan645]

And the way two of the men kept rolling eyes whenever the women spoke their points... Yikes.

[@ZKitty29]

@@kuromistan645 are you going to ignore the part where a guy asked her something and she started getting mad and defensive? oh wait she didn't want to include that.

[@laurensmith7573]

Also how does Derrick not realize why women don't like him? lol

[@DeathnoteBB]

He does, but he wants them to be subservient to him

[@koii319]

he knows that women are humans with their own opinions, and he doesnt like that

[@4minutesleftx]

Imagine not believing in women's rights... I could never ✨️👸🏼👸🏽👸🏿

[@kidneytransplantwarrior21]

Mens rights advocates do believe in womens rights. Not every mens rights advocates are like this.

[@magix8009]

@@kidneytransplantwarrior21 we've been over this

[@kidneytransplantwarrior21]

@@magix8009 I'm still watching the video. I haven't watched it fully. I'm just reading the comments at the moment.

[@mayobot4590]

@@kidneytransplantwarrior21 be so serious

[@nataliee5236]

@@kidneytransplantwarrior21 mens rights advocates so are you focused on mental health, racism, and ableism?

[@thatonedude9744]

“Title 9 specialist” gives me “I find loopholes in college law to make sure rapist men aren’t forced to face consequences”

[@thatonedude9744]

“I know you’re saying a whole bunch of cogent stuff, but I don’t believe you, so *fart*”

[@manderly33]

At a college? Yeah, seems likely.

[@kuromistan645]

Wait is that what it means?? Oh god...

[@MintyFreshCupcakes]

I hope his job sees this and he's fired!

[@photoshallow]

It's the opposite

[@PokhrajRoy.]

2:12 Yes, I remember (unfortunately) the Incel with the long hair and being confidently wrong while giving the impression that he’s ready with facts and figures. P.S. He’s dressed like a Serial Killer without his fishing hook.

[@BeepBoop14]

I love being a lesbian and having a mostly lesbian or aroace social circle,,, we’re enjoying the best possible world as it’s the furthest we can get from the patriarcy 😌😌

[@iamtheaceupmysleeve1687]

As a lesbian on the aro and ace spectrums I fully agree

[@EtharealBTB]

As much as I can understand comments like this, I none the less find them problematic, as not all men are supportive of the patriarchy, and the vast majority from my experience are very supportive of women's rights (at least in my country anyway). As someone with a wide array of friends from all sorts of backgrounds, I dont think 'the best possible' world is one where we close ourselves off, or only mingle with 'certain groups'.

[@kuromistan645]

Can I join LOL

[@kuromistan645]

@@EtharealBTB but with men you never know what you are getting, either they wanna date you just because you are a woman or they don't see you as fully human. It's very hard to befriend men because most of them are... unpleasant and ill mannered, to put it nicely. I also only befriend queer men, mainly because I know they'll always see me as a human and not as a conquest.

[@EtharealBTB]

@@kuromistan645 I'm sorry if that is the experience you have had with men, however, trust me, that's not universal. There are alot of good men in the world (just as there are also bad women too). I just dont like seeing stereotypical cliches about either gender as a whole, as I dont think personality can be boiled down to what you were born as. However, I can't take away from your personal experiences, and maybe I'm the one in the minority, however most of the men I know have alot of respect for women (although granted I have met people on both sides of the sex fence who havent shown respect based upon either 'old fashioned beliefs' or 'ill conceived notions', etc).

[@mossthebryophyter]

I stopped liking Jubilee while ago. I thought some of their find the mole videos were fun sometimes but I hate their "middle" ground videos. The make it seem like the right to exist is a conversation that needs to be had and it has the same energy as being picked on at school and telling a teacher for them to tell both of you to not fight/love each other/be friends/etc.

[@technoloverish]

I mean, I believe in trying to persuade people with backwards views to change their mind, or at least be more sympathetic towards my perspective, though I don't particularly like that Jubilee does these kinds of discussions without having a moderator. If I had to take a guess, I think Jubilee is trying to be politically neutral not taking a side in Middle Ground and they're probably trying to get people with disagreements to not see each other as total enemies, both of which are probably well-intentioned, though they're arguably being a bit too neutral

[@mothboy420]

@@technoloverish yeah neutrality and non-politicalness dont fly when the topic is human rights

[@technoloverish]

@@mothboy420 Yeah, I mean, human rights have been politicized, though they should honestly just be common sense

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@technoloverish I mean they’ve been politicized because throughout history we have to make it policy to not violate human rights. It’s inherently political.

[@turqussy]

it's interesting hearing their conversations though

[@timenotime]

those men really are out there thinking anger isn't an emotion

[@princewoofmeowthing]

men's rights activists makes me think of the same thing that "straight pride" is. a counter-attack to a marginalized group that just wants to be treated like actual humans (because that's what they are). like what are you fighting for? you already have rights, you don't need to fight for anything omg i commented this right before getting to 20:21 YES PREACH!!!!

[@noahmcgillivray9487]

These men just need to realize that the patriarchy is actually what is holding them back, and that feminism will actually help with their problems. I will say that maybe the one “men’s rights” issue that actually does need to be talked about is infant circumcision, as it completely violates men’s sexual and bodily autonomy

[@antmanatthemoment7233]

When has feminism ever given a shit about men?

[@JinxPropaganda]

@@antmanatthemoment7233 feminism is literally about equal rights. Yes it talks a lot about women (because we don’t have as many rights as men do) but it also talks about men (suicide rates, sexual assault etc) maybe you should educate yourself on that because what you said is simply not true

[@antmanatthemoment7233]

@@JinxPropaganda oh spare me the bull crap will you? I have never heard feminism address the problems men face, or when it does, it boils them all down to "men aren't allowed to express their emotions" when it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Men have more rights? Nah, I'm afraid it's the other way round: family court almost always benefits women, women aren't conscripted for war, when there's a divorce, the woman gets half the man's possessions, the man has to pay child support, regardless of the circumstances, if I man gets accused of impregnating a woman, it's on him to prove he didn't do it, it's illegal to circumcise a baby girl, but not a baby boy. People either don't know or choose to ignore that ordinary men were only entitled to the vote, if they agreed to be conscripted, the moment their country's leader started fooling around, yet the suffragettes campaigned for the right to vote without conscription for women

[@RoguePlutonia]

@@antmanatthemoment7233 you're missing a point: who runs those systems? was it women who made those laws that oppresses men? women whose lives are dedicated to activism typically focuses on an area that they feel passionate about, because not everyone has the time and patience to address all injustices. I want to fight for homeless rights, prison rights and climate change rights, but there's no way I'd be able to focus on all of them. How many men then, fight for those rights you mentioned? Because all I've ever heard have been men complaining about those inequalities the social or law systems, but then they are never actually doing anything to change it. Why? Because activism is hard. Though I can imagine there has to be some men that actually are actively fighting for those rights, and they are probably not men's rights activists. Because from what I've seen, MRA's tend to focus more on why feminism sucks than doing any significant change to improve men's rights. And incels like Derek mostly complain about women being horrible for not dating him. Men CAN call themselves feminists and still fight for men's rights. Any "feminist" that dismisses men's struggles does not understand the definition of it.

[@antmanatthemoment7233]

@@RoguePlutonia yes and no, there are plenty of countries, past and present leaders with female leaders/rulers that put their own lust for power before their own citizens. Oh isn't that convenient, they don't have time or patience to address all injustices, yet they appear to have plenty of both, when it comes to supposed injustices, supposedly affect them directly. All of that could apply to the current state of feminism, answer me truthfully, what has the third wave done to accomplish a solution to their problems

[@TheFangirlOtaku]

One of the most telling parts about this is how when the men talk, the women listen politely, but when the women talk the men all just sit there rolling their eyes, occasionally laughing, avoiding eye contact. It's very patronizing and they obviously just don't want to hear any other opinion than their own.

[@strawberryj3lly]

Derek especially. Like bro you want pussy but won’t put in any effort to get it.

[@strawberryj3lly]

Derek especially. Like bro you want pussy but won’t put in any effort to get it.

[@strawberryj3lly]

Derek especially. Like bro you want pussy but won’t put in any effort to get it.

[@strawberryj3lly]

Derek especially. Like bro you want pussy but won’t put in any effort to get it.

[@ZKitty29]

are you going to talk about how when one of the dudes asked her a question she got mad and defensive? or when a guy was talking and one of the girls cut him off? oh wait she didn't want to include that how funny.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

It’s Day 7 already and can I just say how we’re all going to have withdrawal symptoms when you switch to regular programming. Thank you nonetheless for the daily uploads.

[@AnnamarieForcino]

i'm so happy you're enjoying! thank u for watching :-)

[@queendee8809]

mens rights activists gives the same vibe as white lives matter believers. it’s so painfully clear that it exists solely to ignore and put down another movement and I’m surprised my eyes didn’t get stuck with how much I was eye rolling when the guys spoke. Anyways keep it up queen! And merry sinnmas🤪

[@joshuacoleman8000]

@@queendee8809 most people*

[@queendee8809]

@@joshuacoleman8000 your best comback is to correct grammar on a KZbin comment?💀💀

[@Djsokdkfjdkd]

@@markprice5651 Nobody thinks that men don't have real issues. MRAs just don't understand that the root of those issues is the same thing that feminists are trying to fight against. The stupid stereotypes and shit. When will you realise that?

[@manderly33]

@@markprice5651 I hope you spend even a third of the time you spend bitching in the comments doing actual activism for the issues you claim to care about.

[@cycymaca]

@@queendee8809 Comeback for what?😂😂😂 Mark pulled his comment right out of his ass. Personally, I'd ignore the trolls all together. And so did the other guy.

[@cattrickie]

I admire their strength because as soon as that incel guy opened his mouth I would've been throwing hands. the fact that they can sit there listening to misogynists say the dumbest shit known to mankind AND NOT lose it?? that is a level of self control I will never have

[@cattrickie]

and nah bc the dude was like. "toxic masculinity doesn't exist because ...." AND STATES EXACTLY HOW TOXIC MASCULINITY HURT HIM hello????

[@atrainbrady3208]

Incels are sexually frustrated, learn to understand that.

[@sleepopeepo]

Anyone else here who wouldn't step forward for the first question, not because you don't believe men and women aren't equal, but because you don't believe men and women are that different? They are socialized and treated differently, definitely, but they aren't inherently different in any meaningful ways.

[@addyraven1747]

yeah, i agree, but also for the toxic masculinity thing. like, toxic masculinity is obviously real but at that point i feel like it isnt "manly" anymore. it is steriotypically, but it isnt what a "real man" would be about. just my opinion tho :D

[@mothboy420]

exactly

[@rivkavermeij]

I agree

[@HELLO-mx6pt]

Yeah, it felt like a really weird statement to begin with. Honestly when I heard it, it gave me "separated but equal" vibes which made me kind of uncomfortable

[@sleepopeepo]

@@addyraven1747 I agree that toxic masculinity sucks but disagree that there's any such thing as a "real man." Anyone who considers themself a man is one, even if they're a shitty person.

[@Tinfilladey]

I've never felt like,, I dunno more annoyed by a group of men. Like, especially derrick. I think one of the main things that anger me, is the idea of women being extra emotional, out of it. As if all AFAB people are like helpless children, people who at the fall of a hat will fall into a mushy pile of tears. Something, which if they were allowed/had the balls to be in the vicinity of a women for more then ten seconds would realize is one of the most untrue, underformed things possible. I, myself as an AFAB person myself, find it sort of hard to show emotions, or well my emotions are more sporadic. Sometimes I'll have emotional reactions which only come out when I'm alone. If I was a man? This would make me the cream of the crop to these cheese slices like this. But when/if I open up enough to a man like this and told or even attempted to get this concept through their playdough quality brains they would call me "bitchy", "manic", or something like that. Or maybe they just write it off, act as if I would lie about something such as this. Another thing, while I'm ranting in the comments. I hate how people like this feel the need to victimize themselves and those like them, acting as if every man was formed from gods holy cum bucket which then gave them the right to everything. As if they are entitled to be gifted the body of any AFAB they speak to. Acting as if they are entitled to see the world be shifted into them being given every ounce of power in being. It disgusts me. It makes my stomach curl.

[@neutralmakhotel]

the women in this video have incredible patience, they deserve the world and all that is good ❤

[@senatorpalpabean2638]

I gotta respect Zach actually asking genuine questions and listening tbh, the other guys don't seem at all interested in learning

[@calliem1331]

on the locker room talk point, i have some personal experience with how toxic that can be. I'm a trans woman so i was in mens' locker rooms in high school and the things that got discussed in there were HORRIFYING, like constant objectification, SA jokes, jokes that were like riiiight on the border of not being jokes which were often about girls they knew, lots of shit like that. its gross and scary and i hate that its not a common consensus that that isn't acceptable.

[@ulexite]

So im a gay amab enby who was raised in an all women household and was majority friends with girls up untill i was 20, i was told i was "one of the girls" all my life. I also happen to be 6"4 and well built and the amount of times I've had to code switch to pass as a partner for my afab friends or walk them home becuase they feel threatened or unsafe or listen to how men have treated them taught me early on the importance of intersectional feminism. I consider it an absolute gift and privellege to have been welcomed into those spaces and trusted. Hearing these men speak makes my skin crawl they are so blind to reality and so full of their own concept of "logic" and "how the wrold is" whilst saying nothing on how they are actually helping men. I've known a good few cishet men and seen glimpses of what they can be like and how damaged so many of them are. I also got to learn the depths of toxic masculinity within the gay male scene as well which is a whole other conversation. Sorry for the rant, i was just aghast at this. In this house we stan womens rights!

[@jeanpierreniyongabo3938]

it's crazy how Jubilee's Idea of a fair discussion was getting some random women who call themselves feminists but aren't feminist theorists or anything and putting them up against 3 dude's who probably spend the majority of their day on misogynistic 4chan forums learning talking point after talking point which -while wildly incorrect- make's them ready to "refute" the average not bigoted persons claims while sounding knowledgable

[@Mintysaur]

I was just thinking, I'm 16 and have a semi long walk from the bus stop to my house every day bc it's not particularly close to any bus stops, and like. Have men/boys ever felt unnerved and threatened by a stranger adult woman walking towards them? If they're walking alone and see a grown woman walking towards their direction do they double check that they have their phone with them in case they need to call someone??

[@loganmiller7827]

A lot of times I'm scared of anyone regardless of any factors in that sort of scenario but I'm also queer and have many anxiety based mental illnesses so I worry about anything

[@sabsain2399]

@@loganmiller7827 that's completely irrelevant to the argument here

[@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792]

no but just being scared is also a sign of sexism. if you are scared of latinos or african americans because of their race that is racism. but it’s also not like men aren’t afraid when walking because we experience high rates of assault. walking to school i had someone tell me he was gonna rape me. i’ve also had people try to fight or even stab me.

[@sabsain2399]

@@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792 no way you compared women being scared of men with people being scared of men of specific races. Sorry; but women being wary and anxious because of men because they don't know when, how, where or why they'll get hurt by them in any possible way is *not* sexism. Sure; it's not all men- but we also don't know which men. You are not discriminating or being bigoted towards the whole of male/man-kind by being careful. That is NOT the same as people making microagressions and naturally assuming nearly all black people to robbers e.g. Also; a lot of people like you that use the "men too!" argument fail to notice that it's *men* harassing *men*. First men harass and harm women; limit their social maneuverability and demean their existence and now women are the sexist ones for being scared of them???

[@jadecoolness101]

@@xxxspamxxxxxxlmaoxxx792 If you don't like women being wary of men, maybe you guys shouldn't be r4ping women to the point that 1 in 3 of them have been s3xually as/saulted in some way. Just a thought to consider. This is like going to a bunch of deer and being like "Hey I noticed you guys don't really like people. You keep like, running away from people wearing camo in the bushes? That's weirdly bigoted of you honestly, like I'M not going to sh00t you, I don't even have a gun. You should be less closed minded and just approach people and see if they have a gun before judging them smh" Like no? Men are dangerous. Point blank. "Not all!" I don't care. Sharks only kiII ~10 people per year, but if there's a shark in the water you get the hell out. "Not all sharks!" well all sharks have teeth. Maybe the reason why only 10 people are kiIIed is BECAUSE we avoid them. Millions of women are r4ped and mur/dered every year. MILLIONS. At the hands of men. If you want to call that s3xism, fine. It's s3xism. Now what? You expect women to just lose all survival instincts toward their only natural pr3dator? You except women to play russian roulette to cater to your feelings? Also, you want to say "men face high rates of as/sault". Well, who's doing the as/saulting? Exactly.

[@tbella5186]

As a mother of 3 boys, I explained the difference between a man perspective and a woman's like this.... You are walking down a dark ally with three men at your back, how do you feel? That sentence puts in to perspective the differences and helped my oldest son, who is already over 150lbs and 6ft at 16 years of age, understand how many women move through the world. It helps to have a sensitive husband to help bring these boys up!

[@martiniquejunebug2284]

It showed exactly what they were talking about when the girls hugged, and the guys shook hands. Thats exactly it. Guys arent allowed to hug like that

[@harlottebronte]

I feel like the guy furthest from the camera also lowkey wanted a hug but knew he had to settle for a handshake because "man" and that just proves the womens' points right on the spot and is also just so sad to see

[@chrys8991]

How can Derrick contradict himself so casually and not realize that? I could never have a conversation with someone like that, because some things he says are completely unreasonable to me, so much so that I have difficulty coming up with a response that could sound logical enough to someone like him

[@DeathnoteBB]

No see he realizes it. He’s gaslighting.

[@skinsey85]

I think there's a lot of men's issues that need to be addressed for sure, such as certain mental health issues that are currently higher for men. So on a personal level, yeah, there's things that men need advocating for. However, systematically, I just don't see them being oppressed. Our patriarchal society absolutely hurts both so I think we all have things that need to be addressed. I just don't think there's a "men's vs women's rights" when there's a social imbalance of power.

[@Lemoncakelover678]

Yeah and the most disappointing thing too is that they can address it through platforms. Instead, all I see is 'alpha/Sigma male' podcasts and the 'manosphere' where they just demean and generalise women. It's sad how instead of helping other men, they choose to be misongynistic

[@skinsey85]

@@Lemoncakelover678 Exactly. If a group decides to spend their energy tearing down those who they see as oppositional instead of uplifting and supporting themselves, they don't really care about their own issues. It's sad to see young impressionable boys and men be fooled by such dangerous ideologies like the manosphere.

[@jadecoolness101]

If men want their mental health issues addressed they can do that for themselves. Men have never done ANYTHING to help women and it's not women's job to help them with their self inflicted problems. Besides, men ONLY bring up these issues to shut down women. They don't want these issues to be solved, or else they'll lose their trump card.

[@kenos911]

@@Lemoncakelover678 I’ve seen some guys say it on the internet, but they only scratch the surface

[@views-kb6sv]

We get locked up longer than women, are more likely to recieve the death penalty, and denied from homeless shelters. There's also the fact that a military draft might be be comming back soon. We are also oppressed.

[@pusheenqueen519]

To quote a newscaster whale "Has the concept of women having choices gone too far?"

[@melithegamer]

So crazy how men can’t see feminism is helpful for men

[@manderly33]

@@markprice5651 Cope

[@luckiest_star25]

May i ask how ? No hate just genuinely curious

[@melithegamer]

@@luckiest_star25 Feminism liberates men from the strict gender roles of the patriarchy. The pressure to be strong and suppress one’s emotions is disastrous on mens mental health for example, resulting in high rates of suicide. Us too are pressured to look a certain way. We are also pressured to be aggressive. There are many reasons. That’s why feminism stands for equality, not just women’s rights. :)

[@Lemoncakelover678]

And how feminism and Misandry isn't the same thing

[@Venjamin]

Feminism CAN be helpful for men, when that is its intent. But when the loudest "feminists" are the ones catching the most attention because of the way our system treats virality, and those feminists are often very anti-men and aggressive, it's easy to see how some men might not agree.

[@JazzGodlyElephant]

7:31 facts! also another wild point, women have only had the right to get a credit card in their name since 1974 (Equal Credit Opportunity Act) 😬

[@jisoo1571]

I hate the idea of ‘women are just naturally more nurturing! They’re better at childcare’ I honestly think it IS an excuse. As somebody who’s mother worked whilst my father looked after the house and raised me, it wasn’t unnatural for him to care for his child. Men do have feelings and are just as capable, I just think men who say these things can’t be bothered. They’d rather go out to work and live the same life without making any sacrifices.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

5:26 Alyesha’s face journey was epic but also Team Feminist had the best reaction with Bea going 👀 #NotAllKZbinrs

[@LexxLifts]

woman: *makes valid point*, man: "that aside.."

[@roselover411]

For a long time I struggled to figure out why whenever I would be open with any friends, including guys, they seemed to assume that meant I was interested in them. I didn't realize there was the heterosexual double bind. Girls tend to be very emotionally open with friends and can share anything with each other. Guys don't do that with their friends. They're taught they can only be openly emotionally vulnerable with their romantic partner. They don't share personal things to that degree with their friends. So I would be open with a guy because they were my friend but he would assume I was sharing because I was interested in him. Which was rarely true. The dangers of the heterosexual double bind.

[@lostinthelookingglas]

Usually I have to literally stop watching Jubilee videos because they make me so angry, but watching them with your commentary actually makes me laugh

[@deathray3580]

1:05 LITERALLY said to myself “are we anything more than a child bearer to these guys?” It’s like if we said “men are amazing for fertilizing eggs.” And not much else

[@jadecoolness101]

What's funny is that, in a lot of species...... That's honestly true. Especially insects. This is why bugs are based. They figured it out.

[@midnightsan9917]

​@@jadecoolness101 deep sea angler fish got it right tbh.

[@Becks-and-books]

When you don't think you can be friends with a woman THAT is why you're an incel, you're not not getting sex because of some strange thing, it's because you approach women not with interest of who they are as people, but to get something from them.

[@calebl6586]

Bea’s face on the guys closing lines as she realizes he didn’t listen to anything she said

[@drskellybones8049]

i feel like i’m the middle ground. i’m an intersectional femininst, and my idea of men’s rights is exactly what anna-marie says, for men who are in oppressed groups, as well as boosting things that men so often lack as a result of toxic masculinity such as better mental health care & awareness

[@moony4814]

I would love for them to actually explain, which men’s rights they are fighting for…

[@jadecoolness101]

The right to take away women's rights.

[@vb2806]

I think one of the rights is not to pay child support if the man doesn't want the baby. Your body your choice but then our wallet and our choice. You cannot have it both ways. I am pro choice but I am also against men having to pay for a child he didn't want.

[@ZKitty29]

@@vb2806 I agree

[@absolutelynotellen]

The way i used to watch Jubilee videos 🙃 now their contents get even more unbearable 💀

[@lindseyhendrix2405]

Dude I was just thinking about that too 😂 it was quite a while back and I can’t even remember how I came into watching their videos but now they’re a prime source for cringe commentary 😅😂

[@kuromistan645]

Fr like why are we making people debate over whether certain people deserve human rights or not... lol.

[@neutralmakhotel]

having emotions isn't bad, it's what you do with those emotions than can make them harmful that's what a lot of men can't wrap their heads around and it's a big part of toxic masculinity

[@RSD22.]

The only ones belittling men for showing their feelings is women.

[@OriginalJohnnyCage]

@@RSD22. Yup because no man have ever called a dude gay or "sissy" for crying 😒

[@RSD22.]

​@@OriginalJohnnyCage You are correct. It is mostly women (not only women) belittling men. In my experience.

[@OriginalJohnnyCage]

@@RSD22. And somehow your experience is universal?

[@josukeshair8891]

@@RSD22. I didn’t know the world revolved around u 😅

[@lL338]

It's depressing that "MRAs" aren't like pro father's parental rights or favorable custody. They didn't seem mad about the double standards regarding selective service. They didn't talk about male sexual abuse victims. The questions seemed so guided. Jubilee is weird.

[@oldgoat381]

I really have to say that as a man, feminists more often than not stand up for my rights and things that would benefit me far greater than any men's rights advocate does

[@photoshallow]

Like what?

[@carlopicanco2555]

@@photoshallow advocating for male birth control, giving men more freedom to pursue careers/interests that isn't considered masculine, and making sure that they have a partner who gives equal input and work along with them to overcome challenges like children misbehaving or having to move to a different place?

[@photoshallow]

@@carlopicanco2555 there are no men's issues shelters and the one that do exist are few and far between

[@YuriPlisetskyKinnie]

feeling absolutely terrible today, this is what I needed Edit: as someone who will burst out crying sometimes, it’s not because I’m a woman, it’s because I’m overwhelmed or I’m thinking of something that is upsetting me, sex does not determine how you handle your emotions or how you emote. I know personally that I often will try to hold in my emotions or my feelings because I don’t feel that I should be crying or upset, and this comes from a place of hearing men say that women are overly emotional and dramatic, I have been raised in a certain way that disagrees with my beliefs but it is still difficult to get passed my upbringing and to get past what I’ve been taught, even if I’m actively trying, men like this make me feel mad and unsafe in my own home or with my own family, their the reason I get anxious when I see men on the streets because I worry what could happen because I don’t know them, they’re the reason I feel unsafe around my extended family because I know that some of them are misogynistic or are sexist and it makes me fear for my safety and for what may happen if I’m left alone with them

[@beatrizotaviano9866]

One of the best gifts I got this year! Thank you for the 12 days of Sinmas ❤️

[@EMan753]

Ugh Middle Ground makes my blood boil. No fact checks, pitting everday minorities against hyperconservative ready-to-debate assholes... the ending where the men dismissed feminism as a whole and Jubilee really said "Okay that's a wrap good job guys!" 🥴🥴🥴 Tara Moonknee's video on Jubilee sums up how I feel about them, I just cannot stand the Middle Ground series 😭 they're organized so horribly it's legitimately harmful

[@sari9645]

The girls in the video absolutely killed it. So proud of them 😭❤️

[@Snowicorn]

Even when I was a kid and believed many sexist stereotypes without realising I knew my ideal partner (boyfriend, because heteronormativity) would be an emotional person, because the main thing I want in a romatic relationship is to be able to relate to my partner and understand eachother emotionally too. Why would I date someone who supresses their emotions and only expresses them in "acceptable" ways?

[@SwanofWar]

Drinking game: Take a shot for every time the incel rolls his eyes at the women.

[@GOUdamn]

Did this now I am writing from the hospital recovering from my liver transplant 🤙

[@Asterite100]

@@markprice5651 work on your gotchas babes

[@reneedailey1696]

Given how patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurt men as much as women, that wasn't the flex you thought it was, Mark.

[@averie_avenger]

@@markprice5651 funny... They barely mention it 🥴.

[@cycymaca]

@@reneedailey1696 I thought we went over the fact that trolls have no common sense😂🤣

[@benf262]

"for offspring..." why is that the go to? Adopt don't shop. Enough kids are neglected, we don't need to make more

[@benf262]

Also Jubilee really did those women dirty, they are just ley people and are put against dudes with talking points and stats and made to look dumb bc they didn't train their whole life to tell ppl they are less than

[@KatieStAmand]

I wished one of the women had asked them “and what do you believe women need to be protected from?” *holds up mirror*

[@jaman_jy]

i remember having a discussion a couple years ago about how at least half of today's mental illnesses would practically disappear if toxic masculinity and misogyny did. and I stand by it.

[@jadecoolness101]

it'd be far more than half. A good 80% I reckon.

[@photoshallow]

'toxic masculinity ' is just a fancy way of saying that someone is an asshole

[@carlopicanco2555]

@@photoshallow Yes, while you are correct toxic masculinity often include being an asshole, there are certain assholish behaviors that men would do in hopes of conforming to rigid gender norms such as mistreating feminine men or ignoring their wives' input. Just like how there's assholish behavior that comes from toxic femininity in hopes of conforming to gender norms, such as saying "only real women have curves" or believing that men can't be raped. You can be masculine or feminine without being toxic

[@amelia_artz2773]

Ok so ik i’m late but i’m watching this back and i love the idea that these men don’t think they should be emotional with women, but instead with their friends. I’m a lesbian in a friend group of mostly straight men and whenever they need to vent anything they come to me because i’m usually better at comforting them then the other dudes there.

[@ogolthorp]

I think another reason they come to you instead of other women, is they know they don’t have a chance to bang you, so they don’t mind being as open and vulnerable with you.

[@amelia_artz2773]

@@ogolthorp exactly! I mean i love all of these guys and they don’t exclude me at all bc i’m like the common sense of the group lol

[@jadecoolness101]

I remember reading a study that showed that men, when faced with troubles, rely on their wives. While women, when faced with troubles, rely on their female friends. What this tells me is that men are absolute garbage at supporting other people.

[@theshermantanker7043]

@@ogolthorp What the fuck is that line of thinking

[@ogolthorp]

@@theshermantanker7043 the kind of thinking of a lot of straight dudes.

[@MangoSmoothy]

I don't get how these men hold women as the ultimate goal, their sign of conquership, yet hold women far lesser than them. And they wonder why they end up isolated and bitter

[@BubbleBunnyy]

Yep and their personalities are shit. That incel wants courtship so he can have this hot woman and she is forced to stay with him forever.

[@MangoSmoothy]

@@BubbleBunnyy right? Like how do you expect to have a girlfriend when you believe you can't be friends with women. It's insanity

[@koii319]

its like “i want this but not like THAT”. Id rather men just outright hate women and also not want any physical contact with us. Instead the treat us like shit but also want to put their grubby little hands on our bodies.

[@a7xnObODY]

I don’t understand how locker room talk is toxic. Theres a double standard because if women were to talk about how hot a guy is noones gonna complain but if the roles were reversed, people freak out.

[@skittyjive9135]

i want you to google power imbalance for me

[@luckiest_star25]

I love how everytime Dereck speaks they show us alyesha's face because that's everyone's reaction to his nonsense lol

[@aishipar1849]

The role of the incel dude here was just to make the other dudes look better, when standalone they wouldn't be capable.

[@Supermariocrosser]

The role of the incel dude was to make everyone here talk about him and not the other men 💀

[@anastasiatexley7361]

His child comment is concerning. Not to accuse him of anything but it felt disgusting to hear 🤢

[@luizotavio2116]

As a boy, I grew up being taught that the men can only be either angry, horny or competitive. However, being gay made me detached enough from the men around me (you know, cause I was afraid of getting beat up) that I was able to see the BS in all that

[@darkzealot1991]

Men's rights issues outside of divorce court and men not being believed about abuse are non existent. The problem is no MRA are actually advocating for that, which gives them no ground to stand on. They just want women to shut up and stay in the kitchen. I am so sick of the good ol days talk from MRA. The good ol days for them is when men came from work and beat their wives for not having dinner ready.

[@BubbleBunnyy]

I agree but also wanna add what the women said about men feeling the need to suppress their emotion into anger

[@darkzealot1991]

@@BubbleBunnyy Totally agree. Toxic masculinity also makes the anger that they express someone else's issue. I hope we make some more progress on this front and I honestly think we will. The EQ is night and day from when I was a kid, but still not in an acceptable place. (obviously, since this is a video on this exact topic lul)

[@manderly33]

It’s not even that real in divorce court! Men aren’t as likely to ask for custody. When they do, they get full or partial custody 92% of the time. The thing about statistics is, they need context, and people need to be careful about things like correlation and causation. MRAs see stats and think courts aren’t giving men custody because they’re men. That’s not true. Also: not being believed as a victim is an issue for all genders.

[@darkzealot1991]

@@manderly33 I am so mad because I typed a more detailed response haha I will just sumarize my reply, I do agree that the divorce court thing is overblown. While I am not sure of that 92% number, i still agree with your sentiment that is not as bad as MRA make it. There is more nuance than just men get screwed in divorce courts. There is still a truth behind it, mostly due to antiquated gender norms backfiring on men in these courts as they women do tend to get more custodial rights. Just to speak to your point a little bit I think it is something like 1/3 of men dont even try to see their kids after the divorce. Also just to touch a little on the last statement you made. I do agree that all genders have an issue with people in power not believing them for sexual crimes. The difference imo is that men are typically ridiculed or are told they should enjoy it. Where I do believe for the most part, we have moved past that mentality on the women side. TLDR: There are issues that men experience, but they are lesser than other genders for the most part. Men/patriarchy barely have anything to moan and groan about, but the things that they do are literally because they set up this patriarchal system many moons ago.

[@HELLO-mx6pt]

I really wish there were more people in the MRA that advocated for those two initial points as well as the points Anne mentioned at the begining. Also suicide rates in men and other problems that the patriarchy has produces due to stupid ideology. I honestly do not think that, when it comes to these matters, the mentality in the feminist side and the activists who advocate for the avolishment of those things (since its obviosly not the MRA in most cases) aren that different. I just wish that more people could talk about those very real problems without being put on the label of "just another MRA, go make another reddit post you neckbeard".