Men Writing Women, The Female Gaze, and Why Men Don’t Deserve the Manic Pixie Dream Girl

[@cadeocafeeee]

Stargirl couldn’t have relationships outside of Leo because if she had actual friends that cared about her, they’d tell her he didn’t deserve her and she should leave him and the movie and book would be much shorter XD

[@quirkyblackenby]

Yes! Leo was such a boring person tbh. Stargirl had so much personality while Leo had none.

[@sleepydog08]

i mean she did have one good friend in the book, but you don't really get to see much of their interaction. if she said anything about leo, stargirl obviously didn't listen

[@FreyaEinde]

The idea that the weird girl has absolutely no pull or weirdo friends is freaking absurd.

[@sleepydog08]

@Cannibal Teddy in a perfect world

[@charlidvds3296]

Even if they did she’d still convince herself to stay

[@motorcitymangababe]

Lets be honest- it would have been way more in character to have stargirl get as crazy with her makeup as she did with her outfits.

[@kingsaracoon9594]

YUHHH

[@pbkathleen]

there is one part where it’s said she drew large cartoony freckles on her cheeks to go with her outfit but that was about it

[@nosferatuwu]

if we take the autism coding straight she may have sensory issues preventing her from wearing makeup 🤷‍♀️

[@motorcitymangababe]

@@nosferatuwu yeah i didnt consider that- though the framing not being her pov would bury that fact

[@frida5680]

@@nosferatuwu hmm I dunno I have sensory issues and clothes are a much bigger problem for me than makeup. But this may differ from person to person

[@raptoress6131]

Stargirl just doesn't sound realistic as a character. When someone is identified as different in school and bullied, it has a psychological impact and leads to feelings of anger and bitterness and damages a person's self esteem. She sounds like some kind of an otherwordly saint who doesn't experience negative human emotions (unlike other girls). And that's why she's so attractive and special, because she's not like a real girl, but more like a fairytale creature. A mirror for the male character that doesn't reflect any of his negative attitudes back at him, so that he can feel accepted by her but he never has to deal with her in the way that she has to deal with him.

[@cutecatsara123]

A. K. A Manic Pixie Dream girl

[@mrcleeves7106]

Exactly. A wayyy better representation of the character is to more her more well rounded. Someone who experiences bitterness in her head and sadness when alone, but doesn’t show it much to be “polite.”

[@TheLily97232]

I agree. She sounds like Tinkerbell to me : a fairy, a robot, an anime girl but not a person

[@criticalthinkingconcubus]

This reminds me of the Hulu drama Sharp Objects. It’s a show that discusses how society’s expectations of women are full of contradictions. Be smart, but not smarter than the man. Keep your feelings in check, but be emotional support to everyone else. Be a good conversationalist, but don’t speak out of turn or talk too much. Appear virginal, but be always sexually ready for your husband whenever he demands it. Dress conservatively, but in a way that still shows all the “right” curves. Wear enough makeup make gives the illusion of natural beauty, but don’t wear too much or else you’ll look like a whore. Be skinny, but still have big round non-saggy boobs and a firm butt with no cellulite. Be able to consume 4,000 calories worth of hamburgers, cheap beer, pizza, and candy while still having a flat stomach. Workout, but don’t gain any muscle. Care about your looks, but don’t care too much or you’ll be vein. Be nice and friendly to everyone, but don’t spend time with your friends more than your husband and have no male friends. Be unique, but like all the same stuff your hubndad/parents likes.

[@alexisestey626]

As some who’s read the book and loved it and was excitedly anticipating the movie I can solidly say the movie ruined everything the book was trying to say, and changed a lot of stuff and ruined stargirls character.

[@helenemelon]

so funny that this writer is so hung up on her not wearing makeup when most high schoolers don't wear makeup, that's like regular and not unusual. It's more rare to see someone with a full face of makeup than with no makeup. Sometimes I'm like do men writing about girls actually ask the women in their lives what growing up as a girl was like? Because I've never seen a high school where only one girl in the whole school doesn't wear makeup. That's ridiculous

[@firstnamelastname7708]

So true. It wasn’t rare, and in adult life it’s not that rare either. I know many women who only wear makeup when they have something to dress up for.

[@MyNguyen-gv2ip]

yes,thank you in schools alot of the time you can even be judge for putting on makeup so them writting as if 99% of the female student population as makeup guru is so damn weird

[@WinningSidekick]

The funny thing is, when I was growing up I do remember a lot of girls wearing make-up. Sometimes it sure felt like I was the only one who didn't, but that was blatantly not true-- at most I think maybe half of all girls did (although they were usually the "popular" girls, whatever that means). In any case, the trope of "high school girl doesn't wear make-up, is shunned!" is weird, lol.

[@AlexisBii]

These male writers are too caught up in the fantasy of overly-vain women (who all wear makeup) being "humbled." They like to wield the power to put this fantasy legion of vain high school girls in their place

[@somethingunusual8456]

Yeah! Even the ones who wear make up are very chill about it, it's just a lipstick or mascara. It could be the times changing though. I've heard that some teens in early 2000's really put the effort to "look good" in school, especially straightening their hair, covering acne up and stuff like that. Have no clue if that was the case at all

[@AlexisBii]

I feel like DISCOVERING a "special" not-like-other-girls girl is a key part of male fantasies. Is there a word for this? It's somehow connected to a belief in special talent and masculinity. There's also a gatekeeping aspect to it.

[@Zoroasto1]

As a straight dude, I think is maybe because of the idea of "This girl is not like other girls, she is like me and that means she can understand me", so then the fantasy is that the dude doesn't have to make any effords to connect with that girl or do anything to feel a special relationship, because the girl is already perfect. I guess.

[@uberkirbeeh7954]

@@Zoroasto1 It sounds like a very warped view on what a soul mate is.

[@dumfriesspearhead7398]

A "pick me?"

[@uberkirbeeh7954]

You know, it's funny. Male writers basically created the "pick me" girls by first creating the "manic pixie girls" by making them be "not like the other girls". And then guys proceed to make fun out of all these, while yet still having the inner wish and yearning for one. What a bunch of clowns we have in this world.

[@pinkoandthebrain5719]

(I wrote and answer that was way longer than I expected, but the short version is that men are insecure. We're socialized to fantasize about finding someone who doesn't have any other romantic options, but who also fits into men's idea of what a woman should be. Which is how we get the fantasy of "discovering" someone who's secretly been conventionally beautiful/charming/deep this whole time.) Misogyny and competitive masculinity are definitely part of the equation, but I think there's also another factor. Male leads have to "discover" a girl partly for the same reason that those male leads are usually milquetoast blobs who "don't deserve" the affection of their love interests ("mediocre dudes," as the video calls them): male insecurity and a lack of self-reflection. The male leads usually don't have any worthwhile or appealing qualities (other than the surface-level "I'm the only one who appreciates her" B.S.) because that would make the romance inaccessible to men who don't see anything worthwhile or appealing about themselves. In the statement "She loves me because I'm the only one who appreciates her," there's a very sad implication: "All that I have to offer is the fact that I appreciate her. There's nothing to love about who I am as a person." This same insecurity helps to motivate men's fantasy of "discovering" a girl: "If everyone else also knows how great she is, why would she ever choose to be with me?" Of course, that's not the whole story. This is where the stuff you mentioned-- the stuff about special talent and masculinity --comes in. As insecure as men often are, we're still socialized to be obsessed with accumulating status in comparison to other men, and to see women as objects which confer status. So it can't be enough for a man to be with someone who he's head-over-heels for; he also has to be with someone that everyone else will also recognize as awesome and beautiful.

[@heatherlee2967]

This makeup thing shows how the writer's own experiences can make them have blind spots. THis author puts her not wearing makeup a prominent thing. But in my experience, makeup really didn't matter. I lived in a makeup-influencer era and some girls at school wore fake lashes to school, but not a single soul said anything to me about not wearing makeup.

[@anjie3048]

exactly!! even in these influencer days its perfectly normal to find many highschool girls going to school without makeup its not unusual at all

[@cherryjello777]

When I graduated in 2008 I was pretty much the only person that would wear like full-face makeup every single day. Most girls either didn't wear makeup or wore simple eye and lip makeup. Nobody ever really said anything bad about makeup, whether it was worn or not, unless it just looked bad or someone wanted your eyeshadow, etc. I think realistically, men care more about who is and isn't wearing makeup more than other women do.

[@MissMoontree]

I was a bit more "make up should be expressive" type of girl back then. Most used mascara and lipgloss, but me, I just had no make up or very weird make up. Yes my pictures were cringe sometimes :') Still, no one said anything 90% of the time. They only told me when it looked good. Teen girls are much nicer than we credit them for.

[@TheSapphireLeo]

Also please make sure, if you have make up to make sure it's vegan and not used on animals, prior, if you do. ; ;

[@AT-vp8qw]

Tbh, the few girls who wore a full face of makeup to school were the girls most likely to be made fun of

[@watchingthebees]

I’m an autistic girl and thank you for including us, people never mention how the manic pixie dream girl trope is basically portraying autistic women and girls superficially and wrong, it’s really infuriating

[@Kelser0ni]

I am not austistic but I have ADHD and the same happens to us. The hyper energy is cute and quirky until it turns into restlessness and irritability and becomes an "inconvenience".

[@alicexmelo]

Honestly I never really thought of it until now - and I just got diagnosed. I feel like this kind of happened to me in real life: older guys, looking at me as some kind of cute but "different" girl that they could sort of experiment somehow. That started to happen while I was 14, and I felt kinda special back then cause everyone else would see me as a weirdo. That's also when I went berserk on "masking" and learning how to realistically (???) deal with other people. Or at least this is what I thought lol

[@laliclaudesol2350]

I'm an autistic girl too and I completely agree. I was officially diagnosed in my late teens (I'm in my early 20s now) but all my life I know I've been considered "the weird girl", "the freak", "the quirky girl", often in an overly sugarcoated way. I attracted lots of BAD attention with simply existing and being autistic. Got bullied. Got harassed for years and years... and yet, there were boys and men who seemed to find me charming, almost as if I had flipping magical powers or something. They "chased" me thinking I was their Perfect Manic Pixie Dream Girl but I was not. I was just me, myself, an autistic girl. An autistic girl with flaws, with stims, with social anxiety, with no sense of "what should I wear" whatsoever, with no idea how to make and keep friends... ...and so, when these boys/men found out I wasn't a perfect Stargirl as they had dreamed, they stopped showing interest in me. And a lot of my severe trust issues, insecurities and social fears come from the emotional wounds that haven't healed yet. We are not a fantasy. We are not whimsical creatures. We are human beings and deserve to be treated as that. 🌈

[@matcha.clouds]

A character being different doesn’t mean they’re autistic.

[@basicallyperidot5299]

@@matcha.clouds Stargirl in particular is canonically autistic. Also a lot of mpdg traits are the exact way autistic girls are fetishized.

[@mayanackan8562]

I had to read star girl in middle school and they don't explicitly state that Leo is a boy until much further into the book so I just assumed Leo was a girl for most of it.

[@SaintFort]

So, the character was never referred to as "he" or "him" for most of the book? How were they referenced?

[@mhawang8204]

@@SaintFort It looks like the book is written in a first-person narrative. The protagonist will be using “I” and others will be using “you” while interacting with them, avoiding the gender specific pronouns.

[@estellenadon6307]

Leo is a boy's name how did you not realise it was a boy

[@moonshade3730]

@@estellenadon6307Leo could just as well be short for leonie, leona, leonoor or leodora.

[@0.0056]

I feel like the book would’ve been a lot less “cringe”/weird if Leo was a girl; it would’ve been female gaze as opposed to male gaze and that would be much more interesting.

[@firstnamelastname7708]

As someone who neither eats meat nor drinks alcohol I can attest to the fact that people take affront. The next question is “why don’t you?” often followed by an attack on my beliefs or them saying something to the effect of “well I DO!” in response to some argument they’re having with me in their head.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

Hell yes

[@stellaw3682]

I mean I do drink but yess with the meat thing. People compulsively start "defending" themselves (often really badly) like "I get my meat from the butcher not the supermarket" "I need it for Iron/any mineral/whatever" etc. Etc.

[@Kunoichitenchuz8X]

As a vegan and non drinker myself, they are insecure.

[@MilaBelen]

As a vegan I feel this so much. It's so annoying

[@mhawang8204]

Thank you! I am not judgemental, just stating a fact about myself. Why do people do this? I seriously wonder if this is a innate, psychological phenomenon.

[@Binta2]

To be honest, I honestly thought that Stargirl was a part of Leo's imagination.

[@cherryjello777]

Love this interpretation. I did question it when he started describing her in the book at first. I'm like "He's imagining a new friend, how nice."

[@nataliadams4361]

For like half the book that's kinda just what I assumed to lol

[@criticalthinkingconcubus]

That honesty would’ve been the perfect twist. It would’ve shown the audience that the only women that fit the manic pixie dream girl aesthetic exist in a fantasy.

[@esmegigigenevievesqualor6029]

I thought she wasn’t real for a second in the movie too, she seemed so forgotten and stuff like she just never existed. And let me guess she wasn’t in the yearbook😐

[@amnaataha]

if anyone's read the book this interpretation makes a lot of sense and I believed the same thing

[@trinaq]

Why are Male Manic Pixies so much more thought out and well written than their female counterparts? While the Male normally acts as a mentor, and has agency outside of the protagonist, the Female's only known function is to be the Love Interest, and isn't well developed at all.

[@smokugoku]

Their character usually starts and ends at "She's different.... but the boy understands her and loves her for all her w e i r d n e s s"

[@doctorwholover1012]

Because writers subconsciously or consciously are aware of what they're doing, and when writing the male version vs the female version, they give the male version a more fully realised character because without it, the male character is bland, boring, annoying or useless, but for the female version, they give her the outline of intentions/character that she needs to fulfil her role in the story and don't give her anything else because as long as she hits X,Y,Z character beats she's done her narrative purpose and everything else is superfluous or a 'waste' to give to her character when it could be used for more important or interesting characters within the story (cough male characters cough) It's just misogyny lol. Consciously or otherwise, a lot of the time, people don't write women with depth, because they aren't used to seeing female characters with depth, because originally depth was for male characters, and the women were sexy lamps. Also, lots of writers write what they know, and if you take a male writer who views all the women in their life, subconsciously or otherwise, as all there to support his main character of his life narrative, then it's not surprising when that's how they write female characters, as supportive, shallow (in terms of character development) and ultimately, empty, side characters, even within their own narratives.

[@anni1348]

It's because the personality of manic pixie dream girls is basically "I'm not like other girls".

[@ahhh4117]

it's because male characters have historically been more realized, and when women picture their romantic partners, they tend to picture people and they know the humanity of men well, so they understand how to add humanity to male characters. And men who write these characters, have their own humanity to reference

[@TM-qt2ze]

Sad that women just exist if they are sexually attractive to some dude

[@damagedheather]

maybe men just don't need to be teaching girls about being girls

[@gregorywiederecht]

A concept!

[@DollfaceLizkah]

100%

[@cn2490]

Women and girls are totally fine with telling man/boy how to be a man in all media and in real life. And a book is about how you/the character view life through your life as well, it IS his book. Woman is so entitled is boring.

[@onesmallgirl3070]

@@damagedheather literally lmao most of the good guys i know of were either written by women or raised around a lot of women. they tend to need a girl's guidance to be good guys, from what i've seen personally

[@independentthought3390]

@@onesmallgirl3070 And how does that help them? Everybody knows that girls go for bad boys.

[@renee1309]

I read Stargirl in 7th grade and had a lot of thoughts I couldn't articulate back then. What annoyed me was that Stargirl was framed as this ultra-caring person because she doesn't care about social norms which felt...very forced and contained to this high school setting and boy's perspective. Are there not intensely caring people who also care about social norms or others' perceptions? Same with the makeup distinction, as if there aren't very niche groups of makeup users and styles that don't conform to social norms. I was also POC in an advanced reading which featured mostly white students; several peers loved Stargirl but I was struggling to express why I was put off. 1) The idea of a carefree girl who does what she wants, doesn't care, and is at some points thoroughly embraced by her peers for her quirkiness feels like a non-POC luxury. 2) Like you said, we only get her from Leo's "male gaze" perspective. She feels like a character in his fantasy. Again, a bit of a non-POC luxury that she is viewed so desirably by the narrator when some of her actions are quite off-putting in real life. 3) Leo's hate for her towards the end reeks of projection. As soon as your "fantasy" ends, you hate her? The sad thing is this attitude is pretty realistic (how many people project their insecurities onto their partner as soon as their fantasy of them ends?). The ending almost justifies Leo rather than saying "Hey, you know Stargirl was a real person whose life didn't revolve around you."

[@mississipi1103]

The manic pixie dream girl is reserved to women that fit into white beauty standards ! I would have been really harassed if I did one quarter of what the manic pixie dream girl did on a daily basis.

[@360shadowmoon]

I actually notice that a lot of 'not like other girls' and 'pick me' traits trend in white girls. As a WoC, I personally never understood the obsession with being different and quirky. Like, I wasn't obsessed with fitting in either, but I didn't go out of my way to be alternative. I realized later that part of this could have been due to the fact that I was already always singled out and pick on for simply looking different. Why bring more attention to myself? To make matters even more absurd, when these white girls become adults, they start idealizing and appropriating nonwhite cultures to appear more "interesting" and not like other "boring" white people.

[@renee1309]

@@360shadowmoon this!! Women of color aren't afforded the same graces of femininity afforded to white girls/women. POC girls who were "alternative" or "not like other girls" in my middle/high school experience were NOT praised. You were taking a risk if you were lol. I wish I had the words to express this back then, it bothered me so much.

[@irondragonmaiden]

@@360shadowmoon Most girls who identify with the "not like other girls" are girls like me (fat, neuroatypical, bisexual) and we were bullied. Now, sure, I would most likely have been even more bullied had I been black/Asian/First Nation/etc along with all of those traits. But I can guarantee that my neuroatypical acts like stimming or hyperfixating on my "socially unacceptable" hobbies for the time (like how they all deemed me childish for loving anime, as opposed to their vapid love for CW soaps of course) were reasons to bully and make fun of me. I wasn't afforded any grace by my peers for it and was seen as the easy target for bullying to the point that they used me as a form of bullying by proxy by claiming I had a crush on the person they wanted to bully/was their girlfriend. The grace extended to Manic Pixie Dream Girls on screen isn't real to white girls either, at least not to white girls who are neuroatypical and not considered attractive (which, let's face it, that's most of us since few people are lucky to get hit with a pretty puberty stick). I don't know about newer generations, but the "not like other girls" label for me was an assertion and taking the insult my bullies, namely my female bullies, flung at me and turning it into a badge of honor because of course I didn't wan't to be anything like those bitches. Now, sure, that required some time accepting that what the bullies liked are not their reason for being bad people, it's just that they were horrible little trolls who just happened to like fashion, makeup, and CW soaps. But that's where the "not like other girls" assertion comes from: as a rejection of the very norms bullies used to bully girls like me. I can't speak on the WOC experience, but a lot of the bullying due to being neuroatypical, and fat, and bisexual just lead to me disengaging from my peers and not wanting anything to do with them. So I can see a realistic "not like other girls" girl who avoids her peers like the plague when she's not forced to be in their presence due to school or whatnot, but that halfway thing of someone who identifies as "not like other girls" but still wants to be loved by peers is unrealistic to me. Granted, I gave up on getting any acceptance from my peers very early, so I was socially disengaged from my peers outside of two close friends. It's hard to care for your peers as people when masking is very draining and those assholes still bully you regardless.

[@gabs5189]

i don’t know if this is only me, but the way stargirl is written, gives me “the virgin suicides” and the way the neighborhood boys viewed the lisbon sisters.

[@syreetadukes4428]

Reminds me of how the boys were too wrapped up with an idealized version of them that kept them from ever actually getting to know them.

[@rebeccadodd1394]

I thought that exact thing! I haven't seen Stargirl, but from the description it reminded me so much of The Virgin Suicides, because I remember being angry the first time I saw it that the story was told from this boy's perspective and we barely got to know the girls as they really were.

[@basicallyperidot5299]

Yep. They're both cases of mental health being fetishized too. I think the virgin suicides one is kinda obvious because it's in the title so I'll just explain Stargirl. Stargirl is a canonically autistic character. The boy so dull that I forgot his name only likes Stargirl for her socially "odd" actions (like the bike thing and her carrying around a ukulele) and her subverting social norms (ones she struggles to understand) both very common traits in autistic people. I don't think that boring boy would have liked her if she was not autistic.

[@criticalthinkingconcubus]

The literal male gaze perspective of the Virgin Suicides works because the purpose was to show how all the kids viewed the Lisbon sisters. No one ever knew the real them because their parents prevented them from expressing themselves outside of their home. The Lisbon parents didn’t care about their daughters’ wellbeing. They wanted them to conform and put up an act for the town to praise. Which explains the girl’s rather unnatural behavior. The movie also makes it clear that the boys never cared about the girls. They just saw them and pretty mysterious porcelain dolls and wanted to be their Prince Charmings. Hence why their suicides were such a surprising act.

[@jellyfishjan3498]

I never read this book and I'm glad- it sounds like a nightmare. I hate male protagonists used to frame stories about female characters- it feels like they're objects or wild animals for men to speculate about instead of people to empathize with

[@ApequH]

@@daviusdavis2537 Do you have examples of that? (Honest question, I just can't seem to think of those stories)

[@melissab3217]

I loved the book growing up and haven't seen the movie. I didn't get the same impression of it being all about the male gaze. At first yes, but slowly the facade cracks, and Stargirl walks away from it all. Leaving Leo and everyone else behind because they aren't ready to see and appreciate her. In that way it reminds me a lot of 500 Days of Summer.

[@cookiemonster8184]

@@daviusdavis2537 you got some examples for us?

[@luzhalley]

@@cookiemonster8184 I think they just want to turn the conversation about men tbh :/

[@lydiafayre9806]

@@luzhalley I think they're trying to make a point that it could apply the same if the roles were reversed--not really allowing for the fact that 1. they're simply not reversed, this is a fictional tendency that overwhelmingly tends to happen the way that OP described and 2. there's no reason to assume that OP doesn't know that already. I could be wrong, of course, it just reminds me of most of the of glib and smug reactions to feminist fiction critique I've read over the years---aggressively defensive, like someone hearing a person label themselves a vegan and perceiving that as a kind of personal attack.

[@dragonetafireball]

Ah yes the classic neurodivergent kid who was bullied and socially isolated most of their childhood becoming an inoffensive oddity to be liked by everyone. I know it all to well because I lived it. It takes a while for the delayed trauma to hit. Not fun learning you we’re a friend you were a spectacle .

[@laninfapimentel311]

THIS. All of this. Your comment is the story of my adolescence in a nutshell. I'm 30 and still angry about it all.

[@starstudios653]

I feel this

[@apocalypseready6256]

Fr this happens to most any and all neurodivergent characters. They are accessories or cute, little pets to be entertainment for a while, never to break the fantasy of “quirkiness” with their _trauma_ or _anger_ or processing of negative emotions. Worst of all, autistic girls tend to be sexualized or fantasized about purely for how they can service the male gaze. The gender coding of mental conditions is based on what’s most “convenient” or understandable to neurotypical individuals (for instance, ADHD goes extremely underdiagnosed in young girls because the symptoms are exhibited differently due to how they’re socialized. Even in the context of neurodivergence, social and gender norms still dictate how these behaviors are often treated by the general public).

[@CL-je6sv]

I've had the same experiences. Something I really hate that often goes along with it is when people try to "fix" me as a weird side project.

[@mewow3556]

a lot of my classmates treat me like i’m younger and more innocent than them. i’m older and most likely more mature than them, due to trauma. i’m neurodivergent that’s most likely why

[@afish4086]

Knowing that Star Girl is based off of the author's wife suddenly makes a lot of aspects of the book make WAY more sense. It's like a nostalgic love letter to his wife, whom he remembers through rose-tinted glasses as a perfect woman (probably also with all the traits of emotional maturity she possesses as an adult, but while doing the quirky, idealistic things of her youth). If the story had been centered around that, maybe like a Christmas Story (the movie) about a nostalgic revisit of the 70's, it would have a VERY different vibe imo. Maybe even a nice vibe, one that discusses how memory and time affect our perceptions of the people we love, because it'd probably also need the narrative voice of his wife to pull it off. But, then again, it'd probably be harder to have an audience to sell the book to. It wouldn't have been nearly as popular. I think it'd be interesting to explore how marketability affects which media actually reaches people. I remember reading LOTS of books with strong, well-written girls as a kid, but those books didn't seem terribly successful or well-known. Topics of "nuance" tend to be handled poorly by what sells; it's like how there's plenty of books that explore BDSM, but instead the lens of discussion usually falls on 50 Shades; and there have been plenty of LGBTQIA novels around for decades, but then people wanted to act like Dumbledore counted as overt, positive representation (that's a hard no on both tbh). Nuanced topics can be - and have been - covered by more competent authors, but the effects that popular media has on our collective zeitgeist in understanding these topics are undeniable. I wonder if there's a way to funnel interest towards more competent media when discussing the short-comings of well-known media? Like "if you found X lacking, try Y". I've seen efforts like that in the past (especially for LGBTQIA YA novels), but the attempts never seemed to stick or circumvent the effects of the poorly-handled popular equivalents; I wonder why or how that happens. Wow, this is a whole essay on it's own I'm so sorry I just wanna talk about art and capitalism uuuugh

[@dumfriesspearhead7398]

Don't apologize for the length. It was really well written and made a lot of good points. There is a lot to be said about marketing, media and what actually sells. I do think that more nuanced art from a different, less well heard of point of view is a hard sell........because it doesn't sell as well. To sell well you generally have to pander to the largest money making audience, which tends to be white male/female in the West. I read an article in a UK newspaper recently, which gave examples of "go woke, go broke". The example I heard of was Gillette examining "toxic masculinity". Look at the comments on videos discussing the topic, so many boycotted Gillette; they've lost billions as a result. They've since backtracked on their new direction. Can you imagine a more marginalised, disadvantaged community having that kind of effect?

[@MegaGraceiscool]

Can you recommend some of those old books? I'd love to have them for my kid

[@christmastiger]

Yes please release the books, I would have killed for some kind of representation in books as a kid, maybe I can influence my nieces to be accepting of...me I guess

[@ExiledStardust]

BDSM is abuse no matter who writes about it or how. Not really sure what it has to do with a children's book, though. Unless you're one of those people who are so proud of your perversions that you just have to bring them up in every comment?

[@madaralivabrigmane9559]

@@ExiledStardust I will not even start arguing whith you. If you truly want to educate yourself you can find multiple sources and even study’s. If not (for example you have a trauma or any other negative experience please take care of yourself), please continue your day.

[@brandenaustin37]

I saw Stargirl and immediately thought of the DC comics character and then thought, "wait how is she at all applicable to the trope"? And then almost immediately everything got cleared up

[@uskjabjrenfsvj4421]

lmao same

[@bluegirl278]

Don’t you love how Leo is so certain that this wonderful woman is basically stalking/looking out for/ making her life all about him around 15 years later? If that’s not either misogyny and/or egotism, I don’t know what it is.

[@greywolf7577]

I'm curious if you would have viewed it the same way if the genders were reversed.

[@bluegirl278]

@@greywolf7577 I generally do. I find it creepy how we seem to make stalking romantic in a lot of books and movies for youth. I haven’t seen twilight but I hear it has a lot of that weird possessive and stalky energy to it. Of course it’s nice to think a person would be that invested in you but this is like an early teen romance we’re talking about. It’s not like a person you fell in love with and knew for like 8+ years. You dated for like a year max when you were basically still kids, it’s insane to think they would be so obsessed with you over 10 years after breaking up.

[@bluegirl278]

@@greywolf7577 plus, as I mention earlier, it’s fairly egotistical to think that way when the relationship was short lived, barely serious, and happens when you were very young. It would be delusional to think someone you were with in that context is basing their life around you that many years down the line. Unless you stayed together but they didn’t, it’s a weird stalky thing he assumes is happening.

[@bluegirl278]

@i'm fucking high it’s kind of a depression realization that people think that way. It’s like low self esteem and the need for others validation is and has been so prevalent in society and it’s reached this point where the idea of these things makes us feel like we’re worth something. It makes us feel like people can love us.

[@bluegirl278]

@i'm fucking high worth comes from yourself. A living person has worth simply for being alive. The reason our self esteems are so damaged is because of the big problem of mental illness and familial abuse that has been going on for countless generations as well as increasing social pressure.

[@littlest-kim]

me & my sister went to an all-girls high school so you already KNOW the hold stargirl had on us😫 i liked the book then, but even before watching your video i remembered how much of a manic pixie dream girl book it was. some male authors write the most annoying women lol.

[@littlest-kim]

oooohhh this is an sos, don't wanna second guess, this is the bottom line it's TRRRUUUEEE

[@RhymingMime]

this oh my GOD sometimes i seethe thinking of how many poor role models i had in media growing up

[@ricesupremacy]

love the last sentence u wrote lol girls are written using tropes such as tsudere/love interest in anime cuz it’s written by ✨ men ✨ but when i see women’s show, the girls are NOT even like that and i was pretty blown away! there are popular anime films but it’s by men. the only famous women creator is sailor moon :0

[@greywolf7577]

I think that most of the women who complain about manic pixie dream girls would feel the exact opposite about a book with a manic pixie dream guy. They are just mad that the character isn't made for their fantasies.

[@littlest-kim]

@@greywolf7577 the take actually has a video about the manic pixie dream guy, it's a really good video

[@marissacooper3751]

This book was required reading in my grade 6 class and everyone HATED it. My teacher was convinced that all the girls would want to be Stargirl but we all came out of it thinking she was kind of a bully and Leo was a wimp.

[@greywolf7577]

I think people are more likely to criticize male characters for their weakness. If a female character is weak, she is seen as innocent and worthy of sympathy. But if a male character is seen as weak, it's treated as a personal failure.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@greywolf7577 Well in a book who idealises a perfect character with little to no development it's kinda hard to criticise her

[@damkylan3]

​@@greywolf7577 Depends on what weakness you're talking about and the context. Like, in horror movies, there is usually no sympathy for the female character who realistically panics her ass off. People usually want her to die first. Another example is shounen anime, where a "weak" female character is usually regarded as an annoyance and a distraction to the drama unfolding among the male characters. This was especially common in 2000s anime fandom, and I don't think it's changed all that much. Gender probably plays a role, too. In my experience, men are likely to regard a "weak" male character as a pussy, and women are likely to feel sympathy for the guy (even when he doesn't deserve it, lol). Edit: Okay, having read some of your other comments, I now realize I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt. You're just a contrarian who thinks he's pointing out double standards but isn't. lol

[@espeon871]

@@greywolf7577yeah its called patriarchy and it sucks

[@MayBlake_Channel]

That tracks. I was a real life version of Stargirl and people didn't really like me. So yeah, I'm not surprised people wouldn't look up to or want to emulate a book version of me 😛

[@heyhaileyjoy]

When I first read the book at age 16 or so, I related to Stargirl but also wasn't able to figure out how I felt about the book as a whole, I liked it, but it also felt a bit uncomfortable about it, especially about how things are left with her and Leo at the end. I eventually came to think of the book as a cautionary tale about idealizing someone in a way that dehumanizes them. Leo consistently doesn't want to deal with any awkward or messy parts of being around Stargirl, he just wants to benefit from the sparkliest parts of her. Because it's told from his perspective she's reduced to only what he sees in her, instead of the full human that she is. All that said, it's an uncomfortable story more than a feel-good one. I like the sequel better because it's told from Stargirl's perspective after she moves away, it's been a while since I read it so I won't claim it's perfect or that it resolves all the critiques of how the author writes girl characters, but she does get more fleshed out as a character when she's telling her own story and it's nice to see her continuing to live life beyond Leo. All of this is definitely interesting to discuss! Thanks for making this video!

[@greywolf7577]

But why is it that you are okay with a story that focuses on Stargirl's view, but not one that focuses on Leo's view? You say that in the first book, we don't get to see Stargirl as a full person. But in the second book, wouldn't that mean that we wouldn't get to see any other character as a full person besides Stargirl? Why do you treat having protagonists as okay when the protagonists are female, but not when they are male?

[@heyhaileyjoy]

@@greywolf7577 I never said I wasn't okay with the first Stargirl book. I think it presents a lot of interesting ideas to discuss. Just because it's an uncomfortable story doesn't mean it's bad. Additionally, I have read books with male perspectives that don't dehumanize the female characters by putting them on a pedestal and treating them as a growth opportunity instead of as a person. A character having a limited perspective is absolutely fine (and indeed accurate to the human experience) but you can write a main character with a limited perspective while still indicating that your other characters are full humans with emotional depth and complexity. I believe that Leo is written on a way such that his treatment of Stargirl is supposed to be questioned by the reader and leave the reader feeling uncomfortable. In contrast, the purpose of the second book is to show how Stargirl moves forward with life and heals after the rejection she experiences in the first book, to me that's a more relatable story so I enjoyed it marginally more. I have lots I could say about the assumptions you made about my feelings towards men on your comments, but I don't think it would be productive to engage in that conversation in the KZbin comment section, so I'm going to stick to talking about the books. What did you think of these books? I assume you've read them or at least watched the whole video since you've decided respond to my comment about them. What were your takeaways from them?

[@frieza65]

​@@heyhaileyjoy He most likely hasn't read them. His biggest contribution to this comment section has been "manic pixie dream girl trope not that bad thooooo" and "but girls have fantasy characters tooooo" and that's about it. He's obviously got some issues regarding critical female points of view on anything with a male protagonist, so much so he can't even comprehend that people might want to know more about a focus character in a book that is predominantly character-focused.

[@fruit4evr]

I agree a lot with this! I remember reading the book and wishing we could be in Stargirl’s shoes. I wish she was so much more complex :(

[@giasas]

"just remember that part of what makes it beautiful is how long it took to grow" I am cryinggg 😭❤️ Loved the analysis, thanks so much for sharing !

[@CheyenneLin]

Thank you Gia! And yes!!! It’s such an amazing speech. Lives in my head rent free 😅💖

[@LarChoc]

Grace Vanderwaal was 14 when she starred in Stargirl. A singer songwriter in her acting debut, no acting experience but she did a wonderful job. She wrote a song while filming, ”Today and Tomorrow”, which the director liked so much that she put it at the end and shows Grace singing it to Graham Verchere (a.k.a. Leo). Later she appeared on the Late Late Show With James Cordon singing a moving rendition of it. She is writing songs for the sequel “Hollywood Stargirl” and also starring in it.

[@Aurora-rs9lj]

Thanks for sharing!

[@esmegigigenevievesqualor6029]

14?!?! Wow, she looked way older, thanks for sharing that though! I knew she wrote songs tho because of the show she was on a while back

[@wasabi4697]

*16. she's 17 now, stargirl was released in 2020.

[@LarChoc]

@@wasabi4697 filming was around Sept -Nov 2018. She was 14 at that time. Release of movie came later.

[@wasabi4697]

@@LarChoc good point

[@HaHaHaLMFAOtv]

They really villainize make up when it’s only a tool or a form of self expression

[@laninfapimentel311]

A guy once told me that girls who wear a lot of makeup are "trying to hide something"... It was a shocking statement and it explained a lot of weird moments in my life. I was finally able to understand the ways in wich some people treated me, and it was a painful realization. He thought my reaction was due to how "smart" his words were...

[@HaHaHaLMFAOtv]

@@laninfapimentel311 if you don’t mind me asking, did it change the way you wear make up nowadays? Oh yeah, they really like to think that any generic thing they say is somehow “mind blowing”. I had boyfriends like that 🤡

[@HaHaHaLMFAOtv]

@@narcis3720 in my second part I was referring to ANY generic thing that most people now, that's why I wrote it separately.

[@greywolf7577]

It is weird to see Feminism bounce back and forth on makeup. First it is viewed as bad, then good, then bad, then good. There are cycles and whatever the majority view is gets presented as oppression to girls.

[@nm9688]

@@laninfapimentel311 I mean I'm trying to hide my dark circles but idk how seeing those will reveal some great hidden truth about me lol

[@ariannasilva4462]

It's ironic how much he hates becoming "Mr. Stargirl". I know it's because the school hates him for it and mocks him. He doesn't want his identity as her boyfriend to be mocked. But the ironic aspect is for most women that's exactly what happens. We lose our identities and become "X boyfriend" or "X Mother".

[@areejhameed5257]

OMG YES EXACTLY

[@missallsunday3926]

Can we also appreciate the star earrings that fit perfectly to the video??

[@promisemochi]

i really want to know where they're from, i had trouble taking my eyes off them lol

[@chidivids2005]

Side note, Grace Vanderwaal absolutely nails the part of stargirl. She simply made Stargirl pop on screen any time she was on. Also, that debate scene gets me teary-eyed everytime🥺

[@fayelawless2625]

holy crap this finally puts into perspective the 'other girls' in these Manic Pixie stories and how they're more like me than any Manic Pixie girl

[@greywolf7577]

But sometimes characters can be more interesting if they aren't like us.

[@esmegigigenevievesqualor6029]

@@greywolf7577 true, because it’s something we don’t see everyday so it’s more interesting but it’s also better to maybe not try and make people try too hard to be different and lose themselves in the process

[@hoykfnvnnesnxnnensncjforkx1616]

I think manic pixie dream girls are such a love hate thing for me because on the outside myself and many of my close female friends looked like that. We were the quirky weird girls. We also all are neurodiverent or have mental illnesses. I don't know how many guys fell in love with my friends or I from the first time we met but the second our mental illnesses started to show the ugly side they left. They love the art and weird side of a girl who is messed up and has trouble fitting in, but hate it the second you struggle with something. My friends and I were very much the people guys went to to make themselves feel better and see the world from a different place but oh this girl won't put out because of ptsd? I'm done with her. Oh this girl wanted to talk about her struggles with people? Nah bye. Luckily we all have found genuine people that care about us, but it is funny how easy it is to relate to manic pixe dream girls and how much it is actually really sad when you do.

[@AnaLu07]

I loved your comment and even printed it. I happy you and your friends found better people to be with🤗 I might also add that the manic pixie dream girl, as you said,usually girls with mental illness are seen as "easier girls" for men who are bad at dating. I have been dealing with mental illness since i was 16 (i'm 20 now), i never had a boyfriend because because i don't wanna bring sadness to his life with my mental illness (this is personal decision of mine),but i've heard guys talk about that before, how girls like us are "easy" because since we live a "sad life" they would make a "favour to us". This angers me so much!!!😡😡🤮This is so dirty🤬

[@fruit4evr]

exactly! my exact thoughts with this

[@izzygrooves2514]

the "not like other girls" exposes men's mysogyny, as it implies that this person who's unique and smart and talented and special is the exception to their view on women in general, implying that all other women are not any of these things - they look down on all women but this one person is the exception, the one person deserving of respect.

[@pyraffin]

And this same idea is what attracts young girls to go out of their way to change themselves and avoid what they like just in search of some respect and to be on the same level as their male peers. And then they get made fun of for doing _that_ by "r/notlikeothergirls", "pick me girls", "sO qUiRkY!!" You are seen as silly, brainless, frivolous, weak, dime-a-dozen bimbos undeserving of respect if you like pink or makeup or other 'girly' things, so many girls are driven to fight as hard as they can to distant themselves from that idea. Yet they never receive a crumb of respect either way. "Girly bad!!!" The ugly face of misogyny shows both through men's actions and women's

[@amouramarie]

I've been told I'm "not like other girls" in various wording a time or two, and once I wised up to the misogyny of it, started replying with, Yeah, I am. I'm just like those other girls.

[@girlthattalkstoomuch9425]

to an extent, don't you want a boyfriend who is "unlike other men?" I'm just thinking, that maybe as women we are taking this too personally. Don't both genders want someone they put on a pedestal? In romance novels and movies, the man's appeal is seen because he's overly catering for the woman as well like in the notebook. isn't this the same?

[@remyhavoc4463]

@@girlthattalkstoomuch9425 I mean, doesn't really justify it but you kind of got a point. I really just don't care too much about the tropes because I'll just find other well written stories but sometimes I just care more about the execution. I bop to songs like "All girls are the same" as much as "Boy Problems" 😂

[@girlthattalkstoomuch9425]

@@xXSweetieBubblesXx I agree. People hang around the wrong sorts of people and then blame the whole gender instead of their bad taste."women are gold diggers" and "men only like little girls" these statements are not true. But people will hang around these types of people because they are insecure or horny and take 0 accountability for their own choices. If you go out of your way to not be sexist, you see both genders recite very similar complaints. And yes ur right these things are shoved in our faces, so it's easy to be swayed. That being said. Some feminists are annoying as sh*t. super whinny and unreasonable. That being said, feminism is very simply just "a person who supports the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.". Please don't use feminist as an umbrella term for a subset of annoying people. it's just an idea. and those people don't even properly represent the idea. and equality is a idea every agrees with, no?

[@RRyleM]

Another great Manic Pixie Dream Girl subversion is Ruby Sparks. The premise is essentially “what if Pygmalion (the myth not the play) was an indie movie?” And it’s directed by the married duo behind Little Miss Sunshine and written by the actress who portrayed the MPDGish character in the film

[@eleesiasportraits6114]

Oh, i looooove that movie!! The way their relationship crumbles was amazing!

[@greywolf7577]

I'm okay with subversion, but I wish people wouldn't always treat the original as bad. Manic Pixie Dream Girls are okay in some stories. The fact that it is a male fantasy doesn't automatically make it a bad thing.

[@kateb2643]

I'm autistic and your classic MPDG. I've been accused of faking, but it CANNOT BE HELPED. I even had a thing for mopey boys that I thought I could fix for a few of my formative years (whyyyyy). I know it's a sexist and harmful trope, but the first time I saw Garden State was the first time I saw myself depicted on screen. I actually wish the hammer didn't come down so quite hard on the whole thing, because people have been completely scared off writing that sort of character now, so our chances of getting more fleshed-out and nuanced depictions are pretty much screwed for the forseeable future. It really is a whole autistic subtype and we weren't getting representation anywhere else. I loved 500 Days of Summer's approach, but we still never got to actually know Summer. That was kinda the point though, I know

[@kateb2643]

Also: I've never seen the correlation mentioned in a video before, so thank you for that

[@greywolf7577]

I find that a lot of women take the "if it's a male fantasy, it's by definition harmful and bad". I really wish they wouldn't take that kind of toxic view of things.

[@CL-je6sv]

@Greywolf757 You didn't address the OP's comment at all but go off ig.

[@kateb2643]

@@greywolf7577 Well, it's the fantasy part that makes it harmful, really. I do get it. The MPDG tends not to be too fleshed out or even have her own motivations. She exists as a lesson for the male lead, who's often so grumpy and cagey, it's a wonder she even starts talking to him (coz it usually is her that kicks it off). That's all fantasy. I guess I'm saying it'd be cool to drop the D part of MPDG and give her some real substance. I like women too, but you can still have a character you could fall in love with, without having her be an impossible ideal.

[@kateb2643]

@@CL-je6sv I think maybe he misunderstood or something, idk

[@saucewizard69]

When I read Stargirl as a kid I thought Leo was a female character for the whole book until they kissed and the heteronormativity kicked in and I was like huh?

[@thes0mething]

For some reason this brought back this awful memory where I was getting closer to a guy I had started dating and then he blurts out "I love that you don't feel the need to wear makeup. You're not like those fake bitches". I've never been turned off so quickly in my life

[@gugu5285]

classic woman recieves compliment and decides to take it in the worst way possible situation

[@thes0mething]

@@gugu5285 if you think it's okay to call women who wear make-up daily "fake bitches", then I already know we aren't going to get along

[@thes0mething]

@@xXSweetieBubblesXx I have no problem with that. The "fake bitches" part was what I took issue with

[@violetfox2444]

@@gugu5285 you missed the point that this man does not respect women at all, only when they meet his standards. It's not someone fun to be around.......

[@crazydragy4233]

@@violetfox2444 Nah, I don't think he missed the part. I think he thinks exactly the same and doesn't see others as people or worthy of basic human decency and respect unless they fit into his standards

[@LightGlyphRasengan]

The speech she makes about the flower's growth really cemented my outlook on the world and how even if you don't know things people think you should because of your age shouldn't really matter that much. Everyone is different and their growth is what should be celebrated

[@TheAmityElf]

Hearing your thoughts, I definitely think I preferred "Love, Stargirl" because the focus was on Stargirl as a human, and I found that more relatable.

[@dandyandyyy]

SOS!! Amazing video as always!! Made me look at the whole pixie manic girl in a new perspective!! Also as an autistic gal myself i highly appreciate the mention of how certain traits that the manic pixie girls have can easily lead to traits found in autistic individuals spsecifically girls!!

[@Zoroasto1]

That's an interesting topic 😲

[@fayelawless2625]

1) stargirl's got it rough 2) Stargirl's speech is amazing 3) keep on growing 4) kind of wasnt into the book, then decided I just wasn't into Leo 5) how many dances does one town have??

[@lenroz]

Never heard of the book/movie, but your nuanced analysis is as good as always. It's a really good video.

[@TheAmityElf]

So curious and excited for this one.

[@maren8597]

This trope was quite damaging to me and my friend group in middle and high school and I still find myself feeling triggered by it today. I always had a tight knit group of girls all through school and we were all creative and loved to read and we were all very neurodivegent ( autism, adhd, anxiety and depression). We kept to ourselves and didn’t start dating till the end of high school. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly how this version of the male gaze affected us, but I can say that my best friend’s first boyfriend said that Ramona was his dream girl, and she proceeded to become her in every facet of her life. When I see a photo of Ramona I just see my friend because she literally looked just like her, same hair same clothes. Of course she can dress however she wants but being close to her and observing the situation it was clear she wasn’t really doing it for herself. It strange how even just being uniquely you can be twisted against women by the male gaze.

[@asaladwithoutcrutonsispoin437]

I still love both the book and movie Although I do have to point out that even though Stargirl was not vocal about her feelings other than happiness in the book, I believe she did this to please others and keep it to herself. In the book, she would put pebbles in a small wagon in her bedroom when she had a happy moment and it was full when Leo come over to talk to her cuz she felt like he liked her for who she was. Leo was right to call her out for her insensitive actions, but was very rude to tell her to stop ultimately being herself. She did this to please him, but he doesn't do anything even when he sees that her wagon during that time was almost empty. This made me hate Leo even by the end. I think the book made me hate Leo more than in the movie because of this instance and that he did not even go to the school dance cuz she was going as herself.

[@kenaldri4923]

In the movie at any rate, I didn't find Leos actions to be rude as far as wanting Stargirl to stop being herself. This IMHO is being misportrayed a bit in the video. Stargirl had hurt some people due to her actions, including probably Leo as well as Hillari and some other students. Because of this, Leo was angry and wanting to clip her wings, but ONLY because her actions had been irresponsible and had had a negative impact on others. Stargirl needed to work out some solutions herself, and so in the short term, conforming was probably not a bad idea. So, I don't regard Leo's actions as being unreasonable or rude. Since Stargirl had blundered, IMHO the onus was on her to atone in some way, and by agreeing to Leo's request to conform, that was possibly one way in which her issues could be addressed.

[@moonlight4665]

@@kenaldri4923 I haven;t seen the movie, how did she hurt Leo?

[@kenaldri4923]

@@moonlight4665 Well, probably it was Leo's standing among his classmates that suffered a bit since he was Stargirls boyfriend. That happened when Stargirl fell out of favor with the students because she did some things that were unpopular. So, Leo was a bit angry because those actions impacted him too.

[@moonlight4665]

@@kenaldri4923 Doesn't really seem like something she could control though. Even if she was aware that acting a certain way hurt people (which in the book at least, she was totally oblivious too), Leo being shunned simply by being associated with her is the fault of the people doing said shunning, not Stargirl

[@kenaldri4923]

​@@moonlight4665 Maybe, but that's High School, LOL :) Once the students shunned Stargirl, Leo was likely to get caught in the crossfire. And then Stargirl apologized to Hillary in the end who called her "selfish" on the hot seat. To me, that apology was an acknowledgement by Stargirl that maybe she had been selfish. She showed awareness of what she had done in other ways too, like tearing up on the hot seat.

[@SD-fk6uk]

never heard of star girl at all but i enjoyed this video dissertation. love how people are thinking about but the media they consume past the surface level

[@nathalia5961]

author point of view and gaze is so important in changing the way the audience interprets the characters. i’m happy that talking about the male gaze is becoming popular

[@abimon76]

Everytime i hear him write "infinite kindness and understanding" I want to punch a wall. It just shows that she's never gonna be seen as a human being with emotions and insecurities.

[@kianaamarnani5232]

I do like that in the movie stargirl expresses her individuality through colorful/shiny makeup, I feel like its a lot more true to life.

[@jg1681]

Omg, i'm an autistic woman and I loved reading stargirl (as well as other manic pixie dream girl characters) when I grew up. She was a motivator for me to "unmask" (stop hiding autistic traits from the world). I didn't realize so many thought of her as an autistic headcanon :O thank you for the links your provided and giving autistic people a voice in your video because honestly it made me happy you brought this up. Reading the links makes me also realize this manic pixie dream girl as being linked to the autistic side character trope made me self-sacrifice because I believed my very existence was to satisfy other people and make them happy.

[@selinakyle_]

I really enjoyed how you humanized the *manic pixie dream girl* because as someone whose faced similar backlash as Stargirl has I never think before I act, I never think of the repercussions and I often don't realize when people are only using me. It's crazy how you don't become self aware until you truly mess up and it's too late to fix anything. Sure you can attempts. But in the end all you can do is move on. I really do appreciate the work you create. Why? Because your videos help me take a look back into my own personal, reflect on things that have happened and just make you think how you can become a better person with moving forward.

[@sampotato2150]

I have never seen Stargirl but the Manic Pixie Dream Girl reminds me how twisted my idea of Jess in New Girl was as a Child. I thought she was obnoxious, loud and too quirky, just a tad too girly and it slightly irritated me as a shy but quirky person. But now I have realized how my internalized misogyny made me think so badly about her when in fact she is an amazingly well written character and currently very relatable for me. I deeply hate how media portrays being yourself as something so strange and effortless that you can just copy from others. It’s really hard work to get to that and not every kind of self confidence is as extroverted as in Stargirl. I’m glad tho that she exists and I hope that they might give us a fully realized character and actual autistic representation. In terms of autistic rep I’m kinda annoyed how all of these movies try to make an incredibly charismatic character and try to get the message across by likability and less the fact that of course autistic people have feelings and desires. Like an autistic person does not have to prove their worthiness fof me to go ah yes I should respect the things they have no control over and educate myself.

[@sheisaMachine]

Seems weird. Itd be like reading nancy drew through her male friends viewpoint. Totally defeats the purpose of understanding their genius and thought process and why they were successful as individuals. I also didnt like many male centered narratices outside of the hardy boys or stories with several character who were both girls and boys, like the boxcar children or bailey school kids

[@greywolf7577]

It sounds like you might be sexist if you are rejecting stories just because the main character is male.

[@apocalypseready6256]

@@greywolf7577 Maybe she just can’t relate, especially since men (it is men who write these stories) are used to writing female characters based on their very limited perspective? Sounds like you’re personally offended by her valid comment, and have now begun spinning a narrative of her reasoning for not liking many male-centric narratives and stories. When the reality is that most of them are just sexist and do a poor job of writing the opposite gender.

[@esmegigigenevievesqualor6029]

I never read the Hardy Boys, only Nancy Drew, are they good? And I also don’t read many male narrated books only books I’ve read like that are Percy Jackson and The Maze Runner

[@sophiamikell7490]

@@esmegigigenevievesqualor6029 I like the Hardy Boys about as much as Nancy Drew. They both have friends and they spend time solving mysteries together. I recommend them

[@moonmoon2479]

@@apocalypseready6256 that’s extremely sexist. You’d rather blame every story rather than yourself. Is it ok if I say I hate every story about a woman because I can’t relate? Because they write the opposite gender terribly and are sexist themselves? You do not relate to sex or gender, you relate to emotions and mindsets. You relate to a person, not a gender. So that’s extremely sexist. Sounds like you are just looking for excuses for your own sexism.

[@givenchygal]

First time hearing about star girl and I’m definitely interested in the sequel now🤩This video was edited so nicely and fun to watch!!

[@regancollins7906]

The manic pixie dream girl trope just further ingrains the idea that women/girls aren’t worth anything until a man comes along and pays attention to them

[@Aurora-jr6fx]

When I was in middle school, I remember reading Stargirl and not liking it either, but there was something similar that I did like. There's this book called Flipped by Wendelin Van Draanen and I really loved it. I think that the girl was sort of a manic pixie dream girl too, but half of the story was told from her perspective and she learned to both see the things she did wrong (aka actually being creepy to the guy) and value herself for who she is. I know that there's a whole genre of this kind of thing, like even Me and Earl and the Dying Girl which I also deeply disliked. It's just that these girls don't get to be explored authentically and that's such a huge shame because they're clearly the most interesting and important part of the story.

[@mossharboe3258]

oh my goodness flipped was one of my favorite books

[@beagotm9318]

I LOVE LOVE LOVEEEE how you mentioned the neurodivergent traits present in the manic pixie girl trope, i feel like its so awful that ppl will take parts of neurodivergency that are "acceptable" and "cute/quirky" but refuse to interact with ND ppl outside of that bc they are "weird" or "socially inept" such as how StarGirl wasnt picking up on emotional and social cues that were VERY important and could end relationships irl

[@MeanderingMeagan4]

The Clique series!! I got the first book as a gift. It took me forever to actually open it up. I went on to collect every book in the series, and the spinoff Alpha series. Lisi Harrison really did a number

[@YuukiTakemoto1996]

She also wrote the Monster High books :)

[@MeanderingMeagan4]

@@YuukiTakemoto1996 yes! I read the first few of those, and was shook when I saw the franchise take off

[@TheAmityElf]

I liked Stargirl well enough as a kid, but I really enjoyed Love, Stargirl. So I guess I was just tired of Leo? Lol. But I also read The Clique series! That was a throwback, you bringing that up. XD

[@in_99]

I remembered reading stargirl when I was younger. I didn’t really remember it that well, but I had always felt that it was a book about how this socially awkward but happy girl could never make anyone else happy and was slowly being pushed down by all the people around her. I literally didn’t even remember the “main character” at all besides being one of the toxic people.

[@partycitydumpster]

I haven't seen or read Stargirl, but this reminds me of another early 2000s young adult novel with a recent adaptation about a version of the MPDG trope that confuddles me: Looking For Alaska by John Green. I read it as a teenager and the girl in that reminds me of girls I had crushes on and also wanted to be in middle and high school. So although at least the adaptation attempts to subvert the trope, Alaska still feels like a magical creature. Just one with a lot of mental health issues.

[@heatherlee2967]

I remember Looking For Alaska! Most of John Green's books are like Stargirl in that they have a male protagonist who's interested in a "quirky" or manic pixie dream girl. Paper Towns, An Abundance of Katherines, and Looking for Alaska are all about nerdy white boys who have a crush on a "quirky" potentially burdened/damaged white girl. I, as an Asian teenage girl, couldn't relate to his books much because the main povs are often male and the female characters are a bit tropey. Mostly read these books for the humor, not necessarily for the characters.

[@livcaitbff]

@@heatherlee2967 to add onto that, it seems pretty obvious that all of those identical protagonists are John Green’s self inserts, so it’s just him creating an idolised girlfriend who’s only there to be viewed through the male gaze rather than be her own person. I HATED how the MC in Looking For Alaska was convinced he was the person who was the most torn up about her death just because he liked her, meanwhile she has a grieving father and friends who have known her for YEARS that have to deal with losing her. I’m rambling but I used to be pretty passionate about hating JG’s books lol

[@twinkles190]

@@livcaitbff Not defending the Alaska book or anything, but Paper Towns at least subverts the MPDG troupe and ends with the main character learning he had a screwed perception of the girl who he was in love with. At least the movie did, I haven't read the book.

[@greywolf7577]

Tropes aren't always a bad thing. In fact, the reason tropes exist at all is because many people view them as good. I think a lot of women hate MPDG because it is a male fantasy, but they don't hate similar female fantasies, meaning that the hatred toward MPDG is rather biased.

[@twinkles190]

​@@greywolf7577 I agree. I don't think MPDG is bad on its own. I think we should focus more on teaching the difference between fiction and reality. MPDG is an unrealistic girl, that falls for the ordinary guy you can insert yourself into. It's not too different from Twilight, where even a rock has a more dynamic personality than Bella, but Edward still falls for her. Is twilight a healthy romance? no. Is Edward realistic? No. But it doesn't have to be because it's a fantasy. As long as people realize that, they should be allowed to indulge in fantasies which they in real life would consider problematic.

[@n.o.9224]

I believe we can all conclude that Leo is an unreliable narrator in the book. We only got to see Leos perspectives, his insecurities, and his struggles to paint himself as the good guy. I feel like if the book was more of an outsiders point of view it would have been better but the author had a clear bias so it would have been bad. IMO the movie did justice to the story and was way better than the book.

[@teodoraristic822]

I lowkey despise the "flashy and interesting female character is the most recognizable and promoted thing about her piece of media yet the actual protagonist is a bland, dark haired and light skinned boring guy" trope

[@rockhistoria2537]

Mirai Nikki Mirai Nikki Mirai Nikki-

[@henryfleischer404]

I may love anime and manga, but I feel like many that could have been my favorites were ruined by this trope. I can never empathize with the boring self-insert guy.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

@@henryfleischer404 Often I can't either. It's like they try so hard to make such an edges-sanded-off relatable-to-anyone character that it ends up not being relatable to anyone because nobody is THAT boring or lacking in personality.

[@straythots3833]

UGH such a great video!!! As a single woman on the autism spectrum, I see so many parallels between Leo and the men I've dated. THANK U AGAIN CHEYENNE!!

[@kkelseym]

The author of this book doesn't write Stargirl's initial description any different from how female authors write main characters. "She's completely average but yet still able to stand out from everyone because she doesn't wear makeup and has *special* eyes."

[@crazydragy4233]

It's almost like there's a whole pick me girl culture:0

[@mariamart_0]

It is like this is book is a classic textbook example of a Male or Male Author not knowing how to write girls and women characters. Outside of the stereotypical gender roles and gender expression when it comes to being a female and the pipeline Girlhood to Womanhood. Of course of ladies, it’s a dude lmao. 😐😐😐 And yeah, men are definitely not educated about us females and how our brain is wired. Men are definitely ignorant entitled arrogant baboons.

[@mariamart_0]

*Special* eyes? What the heck. This sounds like fetishism, erg, argh disgusting.

[@catto199]

when I saw the relation between the manic pixie dream girl and autistic women, It remind me about those dudes that say they want "aspie waifus"

[@Ashandonyx]

Oh, those guys are disgusting. 😢

[@pbkathleen]

i REALLY REALLY wish you had covered the happy wagon in the book. i think it was a powerful but small way to show how she was feeling and shows that leo doesn’t fully understand the harm he’s causing by encouraging her to be susan for those who don’t know the happy wagon: stargirl has a little wagon in her room with 20 pebbles. when she’s happy she puts a pebble in, and when she’s sad she takes a pebble out. during the peak of their relationship, basically the start while she’s being herself still and they’re enamored with each other, leo sees her room and she explains the wagon. the wagon has 17 pebbles in it and she says it’s the fullest it’s ever been, then she adds another one to show she’s happy with him. he asks what was the lowest it’s been and she says it went down to three once. he’s surprised by this and says she “doesn’t seem the type” to have only three pebbles. this is another example of him idolizing her and seeing her as a happy, perfect girl when it shows she’s not. later in the book, when she’s susan, leo peeks into her room while he’s at her house to check her happy wagon and she’s down to two pebbles. but even with this very clear visual of how miserable she is, he doesn’t change and i think that shows just how much he puts popularity over her and her happiness. the sequel is formatted as a long letter stargirl is writing to leo that she’s not sure she’ll ever actually send to him. (she doesn’t obviously but i think the letter was more of a way to help her cope with her heartbreak from him) in one section of the letter she mentions that her happy wagon is down to five pebbles, and recalls the night when she told leo about the wagon. she says that when they kissed she put the last two pebbles into the wagon. this gives us a look at how important leo really was to her and it emphasizes how painful it was for him to change her. i hope you read the second book after this video was made. i love the first one with my whole heart but the sequel is so much better. since it’s from stargirl view you see into how she was feeling and how it affected her. throughout the book she shows so many emotions that regular teenage girls experience and it helps show that she IS just a teenage girl and not a perfect being to be put on a pedestal she’s also not as separated from everyone around her as some weird, otherworldly girl while everyone else is “normal.” it shows that everyone has their own quirks and everyone is different but they can still come together regardless.

[@LunaAngela1235]

I haven't seen the movie but for me, the part where leo is following stargirl to her home was really creepy, like it made me feel uncomfortable, and it was a bit disappointing that it was justified.

[@NJGuy1973]

I really hope people don't confuse "quirky" with "autistic." One is a temperament, the other is a neurological condition.

[@gillynova]

I'm finally going through my watch later playlist after being so busy with life. OMG CHEYENNE! YOUR SUBS AND VIEWS ARE SO HIGH!!!! SO PROUD OF YOU FOR ALL YOUR WORK OVER THE PAST 2 YEARS!!!! SOOOOOOOOO HAPPY FOR YOU HOLY SHIT

[@CheyenneLin]

Thank you!! Can’t believe it’s been two years on KZbin. Time flies 😬😅

[@lpsmadgirl23]

I love when men write about makeup with no knowledge on it or even asking a question about it, men love to write that their “not like other girls” girl doesn’t wear makeup like every women just loves the feeling of makeup caking on their face, being scared that you just scratched it off your face, having it take so long to put on and having to take it off after a long day when all you want to do is just lay down, alot of women dont have the time,patience, or want to do that all the time, especially young girls who tend to feel horrible if the makeup doesn’t turn out like the tutorial they found on KZbin

[@crazydragy4233]

Men assuming they're the arbiters of human experience and defining women's experiences!? Unheard of!

[@apocalypseready6256]

Funny how you mentioned Anne with an E, because I feel like Gilbert is the perfect depiction of a manic pixie dream boy written through the lens of a female gaze. He’s fully realized, well rounded, and helps Anne acknowledge her own flaws (temperament, impulsivity, rashness, stubbornness, etc…) but he also has his own trauma and flaws (abandonment issues, indecisiveness, insensitivity, etc…). I don’t wanna say women are superior at writing men, but I will say women tend to go for well-rounded male characters as romantic interests because we generally enjoy holistic aspects of romantic relationships instead of being socialized to view objectification/sexual fantasies as the basis of our partnerships. Also, because men have always controlled fiction and stories, so women have their depth and thought processes engrained in our memories from a young age (whereas any women written nonsuperficially was above and beyond). The absolutely nonexistent standards for men doing anything is egregious. This has a historical precedent, since women were generally “worth” one thing: beauty. Therefore our beauty as the basis of any form of characterization isn’t surprising. Whereas women were taught to value men through a multitude of factors (mostly for survival purposes): wealth, status, job, character, morals, charm, etc… with their beauty being a secondary factor. This of course alters our approach to romantic relationships and how we view them-because a man is allowed this depth of reasoning, so a woman has to settle purely for her survival while also seeking unfair beauty standards, lest she be left in the dust from her male counterpart (or cheated on for the “Madonna”, AKA a husband who can’t control his impulses and shifts all his emotional accountability on a random women he simultaneously projects a slutty fantasy onto).

[@mattiemccarthy9102]

Where does she mention it

[@mattiemccarthy9102]

Oh now I see she said how her mom wanted her to read Anne of Green Gables

[@fundiptimes]

I read this as a young girl and I really like Stargirl at the time, but HATED Leo so much. It infuriated me that he didn't get what he deserved at the end & he just kept being so narcissistic and annoying. He really represents the idealization of uniqueness while also forcing everything into rigid conformity. When he meets Stargirl, he doesn't actually love her, or even like her, he just thinks she's some sort of interesting spectacle. He then forces her into rigid conformity when her uniqueness doesn't benefit him and "uses her up" and then rejects her. It's disgusting. I just thought he was a mediocre white dude who thinks he's cool but actually sucks. If I were you, I would've hated on Leo a lot more (as you can probably tell), but I also really liked the way you critiqued Stargirl herself. When I first read the book, I thought she was really cool and it's likely because I was brought up to value weirdness over normalcy, but the way you pointed out that she is flawed and inhumanly perfect somehow at the same time was a really valuable point and it made me reconsider a lot about how I saw her as a young girl. I never read the book again (mostly because Leo was insufferable to me and the ending was really unsatisfying), but this video makes me want to reread with a more critical lense. This video is really interesting all the way through and makes a lot of thought-provoking points. Good job.

[@happythekatt8419]

See, I read the second book before the the first one- because the labeling was confusing- and honestly I think it made Stargirl better for me, because I came in hearing about how much this Leo guy affected her and how she feels and then am thrown into the perspective of Leo and why he did what he did. I haven’t read it in a long time, but I definitely had a strong negative opinion of Leo cuz he didn’t deserve her lol.

[@cabbage-soup]

i just realized that my bullies in middle school might've been inspired by stargirl's inquisitions. and all this time i thought the teacher'd sent them a biblio of the cultural revolution or sth. i mean portrayals of bullying in pop culture often inspire irl bullying? i think my high school, the year before i transferred, had to shut down a copycat gossip girl site. it was pretty popular back then i think.

[@kenaldri4923]

A couple things I picked up here in relation to Grace Vanderwaal. You do not address her directly much as an actress, but I detected appreciation for her through the way that you talk about Stargirl, her character in the movie. She seems to have projected qualities that you admire, and that's good. She was successful then in portraying the character in a way that you found appealing perhaps, even if that character bore little resemblance to the book's Stargirl. As you may know, Grace was only 14 here, but you may not know that the speech she delivered eerily reflected her own life as a child star since she was 12. That you really enjoyed her speech also then was very interesting. All in all, so I wonder how much she might be responsible for your relatively positive take on the movie vs the book. The sequel to Stargirl, called Hollywood Stargirl, is now filming down in LA. There are indications that this is getting an unusual amount of support from Disney, as well as generating interest and participation from some very well known actors. Its exciting to speculate on how good a movie this will be, but so far it does appear to be a grittier, more adult, and more realistic take on the Stargirl theme. Again, Grace will perform a lot of music, and I wonder if there may be other parallels to the original as well. Will she suffer a tragedy that sidelines her ambitions (she plays an upcoming talent in LA) similar to the tragedy that unfolded after her hot seat incident? It will be worth checking out..

[@Nesqira]

This topic in addition to your other video about the bully redemption trope in media, has had me thinking about the movie/book "Bridge to Terabithia". (spoiler alert) I havent read the book, but one of the main characters, Leslie, fits very well into the manic Pixie Dream Girl trope (at least mostly). The movie also has two types of bullies. The redeemable bully and the bullys who stay bullys. Would love to hear you talk about this movie/book if it can fit into any of your videos, but if not I hope you see the connections too!

[@FaiaHalo]

I just started watching this vid and I have to point out I LOVE your shirt!!

[@Eliza-cz9yl]

yes!!!!

[@MeanderingMeagan4]

Stopping right here to say that the cover of Stargirl is iconic. I saw that in my school library every time I walked in there for a large majority of my elementary years. Iiii assume I picked it up at some point? But remember nothing. I DO remember reading his book Loser, but also remember nothing but the cover. I wish I did remember, I read a lot of bangers back in the day. Anyways, continue.

[@BryonyClaire]

Always look forward to your videos! I've never actually seen star girl but now I kinda want to watch the movie version, men writing women in a way that isn't wish fulfillment disguised as empowerment is a rarity, including in this case it seems. P.s love the star earrings to match the theme ✨

[@bugsnuginarug8945]

Only marginally related to Stargirl and your video but: being on the spectrum myself, I'm not the only one who interpreted Susan/Stargirl as autistic, no? Particularly given her lack of awareness to social conventions, which would potentially explain some of her erratic, and at times polarizing behavior. This doesn't excuse her of her actions of course (showing up at a funeral completely uninvited clearly crosses the line), it's just something that shaped my own perception of Leo -- in particular my vehement hatered for him in the book version. Haven't seen the film btw (something I might just do now), but these are my two cents.

[@MayBlake_Channel]

So Jerry Spinelli based Stargirl off of his wife, who is not autistic. And I have a lot in common with Stargirl and am neurotypical, however I have definitely had people ask me before if I'm autistic so I think there is a pattern there. Also, the symptoms of child abuse overlap with the symptoms of autism and I was abused growing up. I can't say for sure if Eileen Spinelli was abused as a child or not but she did get divorced from an abusive husband in the 1980's, and children who are abused have a strong tendency to wind up entangled with abusive partners. So in short, yes, I'm sure many autistic girls and women fit this character template

[@woofytron]

i remember Stargirl having a GRIP ON ME throughout elementary school, and i remember reading the sequel when it came out right before i went to middle school, which is in Stargirl's POV-but for the life of me i could not figure out why i liked this book so much until i watched this video i liked Stargirl so much as a character because she was so different and embraced her difference, and she didn't seem to care about things that "other girls" care about like makeup....in hindsight, my affinity towards Stargirl had to do with my own gender identity because a couple of years after i grew out of my Stargirl faze, i came out as non-binary lol i loved this video! it really made me think about Stargirl, as well as other things i liked as a kid that i'm realizing embodies tropes like this. i don't think i'm gonna watch the movie but it's so interesting to see the differences between the adaptations, and i loved hearing you talk about a book i used to love!

[@jestempies]

Thank you for making the audio quality better! :)

[@quirkyblackenby]

I watched the movie and I was so mad at how they treated Stargirl. I liked her but I hated how they somehow blamed her for everything that went wrong. As a quirky person who relates to manic pixie dream girls I just hate how they’re never allowed to be actual people. They’re always concepts. Unrelated but I don’t drink and people get pretty weirded out by my why. I don’t drink because it’s gross and a lotta people find that weird.🤷🏾‍♀️

[@liz257]

I don’t drink either I'm 20 and have long passed the teenager peer pressure to drink which is good.

[@bluegirl278]

@Quirky Black Enby I’m 19 and don’t drink 1. Because as you said, it’s gross 2. Because I’m a control freak and the concept of being drunk ins terrifying to me 3. It’s bad for you’re health 4. Addiction runs in my family. Some people just don’t seem to understand that being drunk isn’t a fun thought to a lot of people, the loss of control can make people paranoid of other hurting them, hurting themselves/others, and/or making a fool of themselves.

[@onion1780]

I have a story about stargirl. My copy of stargirl was a handmedown, its back cover fell off and i didn't know where it went. When i read the book, i thought it was great! But the ending was kind of mysterious to me. Later while moving out, i found the back cover with the epilogue attached. It was really interesting, and kind of a funny mistake.

[@Gallant_Silver]

Great video, as always. On another note, I adore your earrings! I want a pair of my own.

[@sailorpsyched]

aaah i can already see this is gonna be a great video !!! the way men write women will never fail to amaze me lmao, and i dont mean this in a good way :`]

[@dumfriesspearhead7398]

I'm rarely amazed.

[@cynthiasoolihua2410]

content, of course, is amazing as always, but I just wanted to say you look beautiful! (as you do in every single video!)

[@sinnamonroll2780]

I love and hate the manic pixie dream girl trope solely because I related to these girls when I was younger and somewhat now too as an adult but it comes from the male gaze and it sometimes feels infantilizing. Thanks for making this vid. I'm going to check Stargirl out. Also, it's SOS by the Jonas Brothers.✨

[@k3upikachu]

i loved anne of green gables and the clique, but my favorite genre was (and still is) dystopian fiction - the giver, the uglies trilogy (still love it tbh), the girl who owned a city, etc.. now i'm all about books like atwood's maddaddam trilogy and parable of the sower/talents. stargirl was too wholesome LOL

[@ellamitchell7328]

i would fit into the manic pixie dream girl trope, i have autism and adhd so i have the crazy moments that these books and movies seem to love so much lol. to me its a little insulting to see somebody write a character like Stargirl the way they did, and the entire MPDG trope is honestly really offensive.

[@ellamitchell7328]

because this is not how neurodivergent people are treated. our peers do not worship us for our differences, they do not "fall in love with us because we're different' we are literally just bullied lol

[@christalcavanaugh]

Stargirl is more of a prop than a character with autonomy /:

[@TheMightyPika]

(Reaching 7:03) Wow... i doubt this guy has ever met a girl before. That or he has the thickest rose-colored glasses regarding adolescence because all of that was pure sugary bizarro-world bullshit.

[@Sartorri4666]

I think Grace deserves more attention for her role in Stargirl. I hope she gets it from Hollywood Stargirl.

[@tinymxnticore]

Another great essay! Another YA book in conversation with this trope is the Hunger Games prequel, “A Ballad Of Songbirds And Snakes.” Lucy Gray is a free-spirited musician and Snow is a class-conscious musician who becomes enamored with her and sees himself as her savior.

[@artistbutterfly4378]

I can see how the book did have good intentions but, it does seem quite harmful. It seem like, how it is basically implying woman that do enjoy designer stuff, or wearing maleup are less than stargirl. I can see some good in the book but, I don't think that is enough. I also, think it is weird how unbelievable wild it is to see "gorgeous woman without makeup". It just feels so offputting and, it is frustrating how leo actually never grows, like he learn how to be more off the wall and, confident but, that is it. I would you know at least expect for him to grow and, apologize to stargirl. But, I am somewhat interested in love, stargirl movie, and to see some poc that actually have a role, and not a device to help the white protagonists.

[@beccanibi882]

I didn't get the name of the song but I did watch the whole video XD and I think I finally managed to put words on why I like your videos so much : you talk about teenage girls' interests critically but with a lot of understanding and compassion. And not in a "oh you'll learn better" way. You just talk about the bad things so we can all be aware of it and the good things so the audience can learn to leave them girls alone to enjoy what the like ! It's nice to see such a lens used on a part of life that's really difficult to live through. Never read the book (never even heard of it but I'm European so I didn't live through the Stargirl craze) but I found your thoughts and observations very engaging and thoughtful.

[@RunUphillBackwards]

Speaking strictly as a supporter of Grace VanderWaal and someone who is familiar with the Stargirl books (and very familiar with Grace's movie role as Stargirl), I really enjoyed your analysis. Since director Julia Hart wrote the screenplay for the Hollywood Stargirl sequel (as opposed to following the Love, Stargirl book plot line), Grace's fans are all really looking forward to the film, due out next Spring. Hopefully, you will be able to update your commentary at that time.

[@enVschat]

I remember reading the book and not liking it, especially when StarGirl completely changed herself for Leo. I really didn’t like Leo but there were times that I just found it too hard to relate to StarGirl who was framed as perfect.

[@KyleRayner12]

I never read this one, but I did have to read "Maniac MaGee" in middle school. The thing that bugged me about that one (apart from the "both sides"-style insensitivity about racism that even 10-year-old me thought was weird) was that our "protagonist" was more of a Jesus figure than a character - always viewed from afar, always perfect, always "not like the others," always innocently insensitive, etc. And that was a boy. Is it me, or can Spinelli only write one kind of protagonist?

[@ediecote1466]

I remember really liking the sequel when I read it, way more than the first Stargirl actually, though it's been many years so I don't remember it much. It's written from her perspective for once so it's just a much more different experience. Although half the time she's telling the story as if she's writing to Leo. I want to reread it now but I can't wait to hear your take on it!

[@EvanC881]

I wanted to be stargirl so badly growing up... I didnt realize how harmful it was to aspire to reduce your own needs and personhood in order to "spread joy". Still, the movie was very nostalgic for me in a good way and I really appreciated the changes they made (and the music was very cute).