Niall Ferguson on Why We Study History | Conversations with Tyler

While the modern historical ethos can be obsessed with condescending to the past based on our current value system, Scottish-born historian Niall Ferguson has aimed to set himself apart with his willingness to examine the past in its own context. The result is some wildly unpopular opinions such as “The British Empire was good, actually” and several wildly popular books, such as his latest Doom: The Politics of Catastrophe.
Niall joined Tyler to discuss the difference between English and Scottish pessimism, his surprise encounter with Sean Connery, what James Bond and Doctor Who have in common, how religion fosters the cultural imagination to produce doomsday scenarios, which side of the Glorious Revolution he would have been on, the extraordinary historical trajectory of Scotland from the 17th century through the 18th century, why historians seem to have an excessive occupation with leadership, what he learned from R.G. Collingwood and A.J.P. Taylor, why American bands could never quite get punk music right, Tocqueville’s insights on liberalism, the unfortunate iconoclasm of John Maynard Keynes, the dystopian novel he finds most plausible, what he learned about right and left populism on his latest trip to Latin America, the importance of intellectual succession and building institutions, what he’ll do next, and more.
Transcript and links: conversationswithtyler.com/ep...
Niall's book: www.amazon.com/Doom-Politics-...
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[@louisventer3571]

Huge fan of Niall and really appreciate Tyler for having such a great interview. Niall Ferguson has had a tremendous impact on my thinking

[@ohalloranjames]

tyler this is one of the best interviews with ferguson ive heard in some time. you really got him to open up repeatedly on interesting themes. thanks for this.

[@roberthumphreys7977]

Niall's comments about the difference between libraries and Google are the best distinction between the two I have heard. Absolutely spot on. Cataloging for the good of readers and patrons instead of for advertisers; ads are so intrusive on the user experience now in both search and video viewing that they drastically diminish the quality of the experience. And, as any avid reader knows, books will continue to be preferred by those who are serious about knowledge and understanding.

[@Mike-ks6qu]

You ain't kidding. Top 7 of my Google results are now ads. So infuriating because it wasn't like this for decades until now. There is also something special about opening up a book and hearing the pages turn. Kindles are fine but books in a cozy corner in a library after hours is something to be cherished.

[@roberthumphreys7977]

@@Mike-ks6qu I read recently that book sales are booming. Ebook sales are stagnant. Seems that those pundits who predicted the demise of the printed word need to rethink their position. There is something about a book that makes it an enduring invention. As for tech, my son taught me the way tech looks at us: if it’s free and you share your data, you are the product. That’s Google and search defined. Their customers are the advertisers. Is this good or bad? Probably neither. The facts are there if you are willing to, and know enough to be able to, search through the nonsense and unsupported opinion and sudden advert assaults, but for me, it is stark and joyless compared to opening a new book for the first time. I doubt if Google can fix this deficiency. Maybe e-paper will allow Tech to participate in the “printed” book world in the Cloud future that is upon us, but they must fix their profit model somehow. One-trick ponies don’t fare well over time. E-paper books that assault a reader with increasingly obnoxious adds for products the reader neither wants nor needs will not replace the printed word. Imagine holding a book and periodically getting an electric shock. That’s online advertising. It cannot be fixed.

[@tripp8833]

You should use AI instead of google search. No ads

[@TomfromExeter]

Best interview I’ve heard in ages. Eclectic, erudite and very entertaining.

[@CarlosMartins-sp6ud]

Great conversarion. I wish Niall gave more open interviews like this. I really appreciate his books. Having said that I appreciate his intelectual view of the world in general even more. So to have the opportunity to speak on unexpected topics (books, places, events) its a treat.

[@prism7287]

I have never seen anyone asking better questions than Tyler Cowen.

[@notlimey]

A quirky interview that quickly becomes a superb example of the interviewer’s art

[@majozishow]

Beautiful interview! Got to learn new things about Niall. He's a very fascinating academic.

[@angusmcangus7914]

Niall is absolutely right about the affinity between Scotland, Wales and Ireland. I have always thought there are little cultural differences. I’m a Scot but 25% Irish, my wife is Welsh. I too am happy and comfortable in any of the three countries. ‘Not England’ is a very apposite name for the whole Celtic fringe of the British Isles. That said, I’m very happy to be British and I agree with Niall that independence for Scotland or Wales is ridiculous now.

[@angusmcangus7914]

What a terrific conversation. Thank you.

[@mikegray8776]

Excellent conversation. Thanks chaps !

[@lincolnshaw8812]

What a great interview. Straight to the point.

[@Jamesgarethmorgan]

Absolutely brilliant. What a wonderful man. And well done Tyler.

[@elijaguy]

we study history because the amusing refreshing lovely stories about love and creativity from the past give us courage for the present and future.

[@wilcoreg818]

The jam, The clash, The damned and The buzzcocks... a man with taste!

[@bambi7154]

Indeed great questions! I may wish to see a little bit more interaction or feedback from Tyler or may not. Excellent still

[@canadianintheend]

Loved the interview, everybody reads books Google doesn't control everything. Never heard of you liked one of your tweets had to look you up. Thank you.

[@BSamuel1874]

Please share a link to the Francis Edward Mineka essay he mentioned called causality and values

[@richarddodson560]

Listening to this late, but please keep writing!

[@JD..........]

1:02:50 - epic

[@supersolid64]

I don't think I ever appreciated Ferguson's sense of humor enough.

[@martinjohnson5498]

2:50-sounds like Ferguson draws a line across the British Isles around 1066, Norman v Celtic

[@daviddurkan23]

Niall's breadth of knowledge is genuinely unmatched today amongst public intellectuals. What a superstar

[@jamshedfbc]

Can someone please share "causality and values" essay by Meinecke, that Niall talks about?

[@nathanngumi8467]

Word.

[@slackvariable7295]

Is there a link for Tyler's essay?

[@brendancorrigan]

Google 'Tyler Cowen consequentialism' and one of the first few links will be to a PDF version of it.

[@Weed-sq3rt]

"Libraries are better than Google." YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

[@leanmchungry4735]

I enjoyed his associations to the various authors, I'm a bit surprised he was into punk. Ferguson's got a bit of violence in him though, could be a Scottish thing, that and the institution building are sure to strike terror in his enemies hearts.

[@jennyaskswhy]

Don't forget the power of the audiobook.

[@jimluebke3869]

I think it would be fun to help Prof. Ferguson create new institutions. =)

[@angusdesire]

The Sensational Alex Harvey Band or Nazareth?

[@patriciakimball8150]

“ Succession planning”. Very good. I also agree with Niall about the British Empire. I can even say that as a Jew well acquainted with Zionist history and Britain’s role in it. I read books all the way through but it’s true: I am a member of the dwindling reading generation.

[@70galaxie]

astonishing, pleasant conversation, w/ sporadic opposing views. all that's missing is scotch & cigarettes. g5, old guy

[@70galaxie]

nf on Kissinger(?), mark me down

[@eugenemurray2940]

Study history to find out why people behaved the way they did in the past Then one is informed as to why they behave they way they do today And thus realize why one behaves the way one does in one's own life

[@garypowell1540]

The British idea of class is very different from the US version. In the US, class is directly related to the amount of money an individual has got or made, as the lack, thereof severely limits one's access. In the US If you don't throw your money around like some kind of Al Capone, you may not even get your car parked, never mind gain entrance to a top NY club or restaurant. In Britain, this is not the case as class is more related to the kinds of people one knows, educational background to some extent, one's standard of deportment, and gentlemanly behavior. On my own part, I come from a very humble secondary school and red brick background and would certainly not be described as rich by US or British standards. However, I regularly mix within the higher echelons of the British Establishment on a relative shoestring budget. All you need in the UK is a few spare quid in one's back pocket, contacts with the right sort of people, a decent suit to wear, the ability to not stink up the place, and you are in. Being as in, in virtually any other country in the world, very much including the US costs several arms and at least half a dozen legs.

[@light1908]

Dr. Ferguson should get in touch with Stephen J. Blackwood.

[@christopherdew2355]

Please don't stop writing. A lot of us amateurs need your thoughts, although the institutions are desperately in need of reform.

[@raksayyzh9875]

Hi sir how are you today

[@elizabethblackwell6242]

Best American Punk: Blondie.

[@MrOkadaman28]

There was "free travel" under the British Empire? Lol. My grandfather was born under the British Empire, there was no "free travel" then.

[@MrOkadaman28]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 Please don't go there. The Empire was full of "European Quarters", where "natives" dare not be seen past 6 pm. True, there was measure of passport free travel for the tiny educated elite like Gandhi, but not for my grandfather, an illiterate African farmer. There were all sorts of restrictions on movement - like Rhodesian and South African "natives" being prevented from moving around on what had previously been their ancestral land. Lugard in Nigeria discouraged the operation of missionaries in Northern Nigeria, and formed "sabon gari" settlements for "non-indigenes". My grandparents didn't have much education, but they experienced the British empire, they didn't merely read about accounts of it from pro-Empire writers like Niall Ferguson did.

[@MrOkadaman28]

​@@sebastianbolzan9826 There's nothing remarkable about Gandhi's "freedom of movement", he was a lawyer, part of a tiny educated elite. The French even went further, they trained a cadre of "assimillees" like Senegal's Leopold Senghor - who were sent to French high schools and in some cases served as deputies in the French parliament. That was unheard of in the British colonial experience. Have you heard of Adolphe Sylvestre Félix Éboué, he was a Free French leader during WW2, colonial governor of Chad, and a Black man. The British Empire, as "enlightened" and "liberal" as Ferguson claims it was, never appointed a Black person to such a position - till the 1950s. In fact, one of the key legacies of the British Empire in Sub-Saharan Africa is Apartheid, they nurtured forms of it in Kenya, Rhodesia, South Africa and their other African colonies. Kenyans dealt with that nonsense with the Mau Mau rebellion, and you should be aware of what happened in Rhodesia and South Africa. Lugard, who was the main architect of colonial rule in Nigeria, said this about the "purpose of education in Nigeria" - in 1922. He described the "ideal native" as; "One with enough education to be useful, but not enough to think he is the equal of the white man". Please don't get me talking about the British Empire. I stop here today.

[@marksulzman1551]

@@MrOkadaman28 Thanks for your comment.

[@richarddelanet]

The comments about class are just not the case. Have a look at all the old footage of the English at the turn of the century. Not a twitch of deference on any screen still. Am I wrong?

[@QuadCloudNine]

geez, Niall Ferguson clearly hasn't listed to the Misfits if he says there isn't any good American punk groups.

[@robertpaterson3229]

I like Niall - I have read all of his books, including Empire and Civilization, but I think he has a blind spot with respect to British Imperialism. India historically was one of the largest economies in the world. In 1700 they made up roughly 25% of the World's GDP. Over the course of the next 2 centures, their share of Global GDP declined dramtically. By 1947 when the British finally left they made up a paltry 5% of Global GDP. Additioanlly, one only has to study the Bengali famine, Churchill maufactured the starvation and death of some 3 million Bengalis who could have easily been fed. The point, British Imperialism was a disaster for India on almost all levels, espeically economically.

[@lawjef]

Force me at gunpoint to choose a socialist dictator, and I would vote for Niall. I’m not sure anyone can do a good job in that role, but I strongly suspect we would all be better off if this sole individual was in charge. Similarly, the great tragedy of our time is that Niall is not constitutionally eligible to run for US president.

[@ronalddeveau6755]

Just got done watching a Danish documentary about the new James Bond. It's now Vlad Vladimir Putin. No cigar just a slight smile. All we ( America) do is make movies maybe a few books. 😎🍁

[@aslamtu]

So sad to compare the education of these men with what is going on in higher education today.

[@forlornhope2156]

Tyler" "what is your favourite colour?" Niall: "Well I'd -" Tyler: "WHY?"

[@jillcurcuruto4435]

Thank see as yea still as sysyß as t tut

[@jillcurcuruto4435]

Thank see as yea still as sysyß as t tut t

[@jillcurcuruto4435]

Ytdy

[@jillcurcuruto4435]

Us

[@jillcurcuruto4435]

Y dad up dads

[@russian13973]

The problem with studying history and letting it be your guide is that a lot of history as taught is false or misleading. History scholarship suffers from adherence to orthodoxy more than most disciplines because it is so subjective and hard to refute because non orthodox scholarship is suppressed both directly by being difficult to publish and by orthodox reviewers. You never hear a minority view in history. The “civil” war was caused by slavery. Succession was unlawful. In WW II we were the good guys and the Germans were always the bad guys. Eat.

[@cyberslim7955]

58:10 I am not left at all, but what a load of nonsense. Now I understand English Tory fascist politics much better considering where he comes from...

[@cyberslim7955]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 I agree, looking at money when it comes to history is great! But it highlights that the empire was cannon trade policies in favour of the UK. How he can say that was good, is beyond me! Also interesting how he changed his mind on Brexit, when he realised that a lot of English will vote for it because of xenophobia and racism.

[@mikegray8776]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 You seem well informed on these historical matters of Empire. Do you happen to know which particular book by Tirthankar Roy Niall was referring to? I would like to order a copy - but there would seem to be several that cover the Economic History of India during this period ??

[@marksulzman1551]

Indeed - Don't forget "The Bank of England" story, how it's "not really" part of England and how using the last remnants of the Empire and "offshore accounts" to keep England financially relevant - Bankster Empire style just like her spawn the USA!

[@mikegray8776]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 Thanks for your thoughts ! I will try to find a book-shop that has either on or the other in stock, and do a little sleuthing from there.

[@mikegray8776]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 You are of course absolutely right, but since I am now living in Thailand (a virtual exile for the COVID era!) my options are very limited - and patience or very high spending are the only available options There are two chains of HUGE English-language Bookshops (one Thai, one Japanese-run), but both are currently closed indefinitely thru COVID phase 4. One store, however, reports a copy of “A Business History of India ....” on the shelves, at a reasonable rate. Special orders tend to run up towards $100 each - way too much for my budget!! But we’ll see what we can find when things start to open up again. I really do miss libraries !

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

Great interview. I suspect Niall is just trying to boost sales for Doom and Kissinger Vol. 2 by saying that there won't be any more books after them, but maybe he should stop there. He seems to be like a Scottish David Frum, making the march from the right to the left. It would be better for his reputation if he stops writing before he gets too far down that path.

[@jameshazelwood9433]

He is very dismissive of the Celtic nations and knows very little about them even though he is a Celt but has bought hook line and sinker into the ideas of empires and imperialism . Wales is Scotland light ? that is why Wales has over 600 000 Celtic language speakers and Scotland has 10 000 if lucky

[@detolerandisstultorum]

Scotland going from being "Afganistan" to the cradle of englightment?? All thinkers have these awkquard ideas. I never really been a fan of the man. Too much of a public intellectual and too much explaining the past through the eyes of the present. Not my favourite historian either.

[@ChrisR-zl5hr]

Really not a good interviewer. Just asking rote questions one after another, never feels like a conversation. Niall could say aliens are landing outside my window and the interviewer would not follow up and just go on to the next question.

[@dannysze8183]

niall Ferguson british accent is very pretentious. His British accent is even stronger than Prince Charles. He has deliberately get rid of his Scottish accent. Such a strange person.

[@joshuddin897]

What?? You can still detect his Scottish twang.

[@dannysze8183]

@@joshuddin897 just occasionally.

[@dickylorin4001]

He has tv Scottish accent. We have to slow down and over pronounce when public speaking.

[@dannysze8183]

@@sebastianbolzan9826 can be true.

[@verenahiggs1183]

Not a classic English accent listen to Iain Mc Gilchrist.He has rather a (no accent in particular quite common in the British Isles amongst the educated from working or middle lower class or mid middle class).l find it clear and pleasant.