Messmer's "Flame-like" Serpents - Elden Ring Lore Differences in Translation

In this video, we examine the differences between the English and Japanese versions of the Fire Knight armor set in Elden Ring.
Spoiler alert: Messmer is a snake
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[@cornthdl]

That seems crazy different!

[@AlbertusSalvatierra]

Ah, guess this makes sense. Bro is literally the abyssal serpent 🧍‍♂️

[@nightscout9979]

In light of this, what about the Japanese text for the Winged Serpent Helm, Messmer's Helm, and Messmer's Remembrance? These all say (in EN) that the base serpent is held at bay, sealed behind Messmer's eye, and writhes within Messmer (apparently quite literally, as we later see). Messmer's Kindling is also described as being "eaten away at by a wicked serpent." Is Messmer himself the abyssal serpent, or a separate serpent? Also, regarding Messmer's Orb, its English text remarks that "Messmer despised his own fire. Time and time again he hoped to rid himself of it, but ever did it burn." Would Messmer even be able to entirely separate his fire from him if he *is* a fire serpent? Also, what about the Fire Serpent incantation? It notes that "When the flame they received from Messmer would not find purchase within them, the Fire Knights relied on fire incantations to honor their bond." Would receiving Messmer's flame require having snakes made of fire planted in someone? If the flame didn't "find purchase" in the Fire Knights, why are they seemingly red-haired and with proportions like Messmer's own? Their armor suggests that they might not have had such undesirable traits before, since they were from renowned families and only shunned and chased from their homes after swearing to serve Messmer. Speaking of which, were the Fire Knights truly shunned and chased from their homes in the Japanese text, or only decried and disavowed after they marched out to conduct the crusade? Thanks again, Last Protagonist. Sorry for asking so many questions at once, but this discovery raises several queries as to the nature of Messmer's existence.

[@ladyabaxa]

To add to this it matters whether abyssal is really the right word to use in the English translation. Abyss/abyssal for the English version, with the possible exception of the Abyssal Woods, is used to refer to deep space. For example, the High Priest Hat dropped by Count Ymir has this as its description: The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer. Though Count Ymir instructed Rellana in the sorcerous arts, he abandoned his allegiance to the moon. "It was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more." The abyss being so described is the darkness of deep space, the cosmic void. Given Messmer's insistence that a ruler must bear light and his own proclivity to brood in darkness this seems pretty accurate for his character.

[@robertbcardoza]

That snake skin by the village is probably his.

[@ETheeb]

So instead of being inhabited by a serpent, he himself is the abyssal serpent? Huh

[@arthurdossantos6826]

@@ETheeb Well, his name is the second phase is "base serpent Messmer" so yeah

[@echofiend3722]

Bro I love that you still say "Fear the Old Lore" in every video because bloodborne is still the best. I still dream about it. One time my ex wife woke me up from dreaming and i immediately screamed SEEK PALEBLOOD TO TRANSCEND THE HUNT. Hahahaha Edit: I didn't really scream it I kinda just looked her in the eyes and said it

[@Nemo12417]

How does this relate to his remembrance saying he had a snake inside him?

[@usedcolouringbook8798]

I'm just convinced localizers for games are translators by community, no one person would throw their pride away for this crap.

[@FaeQueenCory]

Given many of the other DLC bad translations... I would not be surprised if the localization team did as such. They undermined the metaphysical relevance of Radahn being a Lord in bid to appear politically correct... Which, as a gay man, just reeked of a separate but equal doublespeak that is not present in the Japanese.

[@nightscout9979]

How did the localization team undermine Radahn being a lord to appear politically correct? Miquella being homosexual or bisexual (the relationship seemed to be one-sided) looks to be universally blatant, and it never appears to obscure what being a lord or god means in the story.

[@jeffjefferson2853]

What did they change to make it more pc? Obviously changes in the name of political correctness are garbage, it's no different than the satanic panic censors butchering lore translations in the 90s in the name of Christianity. But for the most part, I think you lore hounds are getting it wrong. Some of the translation differences are likely a result of incompetence, but I believe most are intentional and suggested by Miyazaki/creative team themselves. Why do I believe this? Miquella is the prime example: in Japan, his goals are related to causality, in the west, he is atoning for Marika's "original sin". That can not be a result of "bad translation" or "it was falsely interpreted by the translators". Miquella's goal and motivation is entirely different, and it's not for the sake of political correctness. The difference in Miquella's goal directly relates to the difference in eastern and western spirituality. It's different in the west because causality doesn't hit as hard in the west and original sin doesn't hit as hard in the east. But the idea of both exist in both versions of the game, the focus on one or the other depends on whether or not you're in the west or Japan. When you look at the big picture, George RR Martin, Miyazaki, and many others at Fromsoft all pitched in their ideas, and Elden Ring is the culmination. All interpretations of the lore are equally valid and invalid, because the developers themselves didn't write it in stone. All versions of the lore have built-in contradictions, it's intentional.

[@goldie1573]

both these things could easily be figured out with absolutely unsubtle context clues instead of just stated outright. "The painful fate of his accursed form" vs "the fate of being a snake" like we know he's serpentine we know that's his curse one just flat-out sounds better than the other? besides doesn't the translation team work closely with fromsoft? not sure i understand the point of this video, it's hardly a revelation