How Did We Miss This?! Our Tarnished is More Than They Seem. Elden Ring Lore Theory No DLC Spoilers

(No DLC Spoilers!)
Like with a lot of their games, FromSoftware and Hidetaka Miyazaki don’t really give us much explicit backstory about our main character, the tarnished, in Elden Ring. However, according to this theory from a Japanese Lore KZbinr, there is a lot more to our character than meets the eye...and the evidence is right in the games opening cinematic.
Join me as we examine some interesting clues and uncover our main characters true origins. Are we a simple tarnished or are we Marika’s Child and a demigod in our own right? Is Godwyn Marika’s unwanted child? Who lies sleeping in the wandering mausoleums?
Listen to the evidence yourself and let me know what you think in the comments!
The Shadow of the Erdtree DLC is almost upon us! I hope this video and lore theory will help you kill some time while you wait :)
Link to Tomato-chan's video: ‪@tomato_chan_jp‬
• 【エルデンリング】主人公の正体、アレだった件...
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @zayfthescholar
Patreon
/ zayfthescholar
Buy me a coffee? :)
ko-fi.com/ZayftheScholar

[@ZayftheScholar]

Hi guys! Wanted to sneak in another video before the DLC drops! Only pertains to the base game so watch without worry. Curious to know what you guys think! Edit: People are commenting mad about spoilers...bros it's the opening cinematic. I didn't think it needed spoiler warnings 😅

[@aLoneFox19]

Bless 🙏🏼😍🎉

[@spencerharmon681]

I'm not quite sure why this is the case, and I can't substantiate it with anything in the game, but I have always felt like we as the tarnish of no renowned have a lot in common with Miquela.

[@aaronuhrlaub2081]

My theory with the eclipse is that, like in reality, the sun is revered in Elden Ring, similar to the Erdtree because of its "life-giving" properties. (We literally need it to exist) There is tons of sun symbology throughout the game. What if, during an eclipse, when the sun is blocked, it somehow creates a way for souls to pass between Life and Death. In Castle Sol, that ghost at the very end talks about how they failed to swallow the sun and bring back Miquellas comrade because their prayers were lacking. What if this is because of two reasons, the first being that an eclipse is a Celestial event, there isn't a way to force it to happen but maybe they could with prayer. The concept of the moon in the game is varied, maybe they can pray to it like an Outer God. Also second reason is that maybe they failed because the comrade, who I am assuming was Godwyn, and whom only died in soul and not body because of Ranni, couldn't be reborn because of that. Since his body never died, his soul has nowhere to be reborn. Sorry for the long post, 😅 but that's my theory

[@toiletfromouterspace3607]

Illegitimate means out of wedlock, which means it could be pre or post consort Godrey, or pre consort radagon. Doesn't rule out Godwyn, also presuming the parentage of any of her kids is truthful. This is the GRR Martin part.

[@ObiVEVO]

I though for sure you’d mention that Sir Gideon Ofnir, the All-Knowing says “A man cannot kill a god”. We might’ve thought we were proving him wrong but if this is correct then his theory still tracks.

[@delfean2666]

The more lore videos I watch, the bigger Marika's body count gets

[@MK-vi2cm]

Marikas aint sht but hoes and tricks

[@bolderdene6673]

lmao

[@ff11bard]

I was thinking the same, lmao 😂.

[@BloodAtlas]

Just like Zeus

[@yournemesis5760]

Shes for the streets!

[@GlibberyGlibberyGock]

The fact that Melina and Ranni both take note of you at the beginning of the game and give you things (Torrent, spirit summons) also suggests that your Tarnished is a pre-existing character and not just some random guy.

[@mycology5242]

Well it was Torrent who “choice”(found) us, while Melina was like “are you sure this is the right guy, torrent?” Ranni takes notice because she heard you were riding on the spectral steed and she knows Torrent and the former owner, most likely Miquella. It could suggest that our tarnished is special because Torrent sensed something in us but I don’t think we are meant to be someone of significance in the story.

[@yomo3757]

The spirit summons, the bell and Torrent all belonged to someone else before us. Most likely that 'someone' is us since fromsoft has that sort of recurring theme. And if thats us it would mean that we were somewhat special during that time aswell.

[@mattb6616]

@@yomo3757 It's strongly implied that person was Miquella.

[@bagggers9796]

Torrent is the Tarnished

[@hnrcx]

you can see Okina riding a horse similar to Torrent in Radahn's bossfight if that means anything.

[@demonkingsparda]

The big problem with this theory is that now a decent chunk of Marika porn needs to be tagged as incest

[@Arcessitor]

As if it didn´t before.

[@dannycao9428]

And Ranni…

[@MHVideos777]

George R.R. Martin DID have a hand in the creation of the lore... it wouldn't be that shocking.

[@v0x712]

​@MHVideos777 incest seems to really reoccur here also spoilers below this for the dlc Incest like Miquella and revived fucking radahn who is basically a God, prime radahn.

[@danielwilson2806]

They're gods incest is kinda their thing

[@seetinq]

So what you're telling me is... we either marry our mom or sister, if we chose anything other than the frenzied flame ending...

[@ZayftheScholar]

GRRM? 🤷‍♂️

[@VallenChaosValiant]

Look up any mythology and you would see that gods marry relatives all the time. And of course, Marika committed SUPER-Incest. Although it seems Marika's bodycount is expanding.

[@_Hal9000]

Sweet home Alabama

[@bagggers9796]

love is love

[@-ApocaIypse-]

Ranni is born from that egg thing, so she is related to Radagon not Marika if even related to anyone at all. though they are said to be the same person, but that gives some leeway. she would have not come out of the same person at least. (Edited) Looking back I see I'm using an idea that was in a theory not main line lore, in the theory they try to explain why Ranni is an empyrean. as the leading idea for that is you need to be born of one god or gods, like how Melina and Miquella are. so the theory was that Ranni was born of the egg Radagon give her, as to be empyrean you must be born of a god or gods, and Rennala is not one.

[@Ugrasrava]

I always thought the sounds in the intro are the sounds of Marika/Radagon hammering on the Elden Ring. The stomps are the hammer blows, and the cries/bell sounds are the Elden Ring vibrating and cracking under the strain, perhaps also the Elden Beast trying to communicate with Marika/Radagon, or just roaring in pain.

[@jessiesewell4076]

Hey there! Ever noticed before we fight Radagon the hammer isn't plunged into a smithy stone or anvil? It's a gosh darn tree stump! Now how well do you know about Florida? Because oh man. It's bonkers. The Caelid is Florida memes have actual historic facts to warrant their existence. Now ain't that crazy 😂

[@destrobatman5640]

😃👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👍🏽

[@jungtothehuimang]

I think this is a pretty viable theory as well and I honestly think this theory is more likely than our tarnished being born from a walking mausoleum. But still a cool theory either way. I love that this game is 2 years old and we are still finding new things.

[@prouzekkata2328]

Was looking for this exact comment 😁 agreed

[@Memu_]

Seemed obvious to me that this is what it meant

[@wjr4700]

I always felt like we are in the Erdtree at the begining. Specifically the Stone Platform you can warp to after defeating the Elden Beast. Look towards the opening. Similar to Marika in the DLC trailer.

[@dZ0647]

I thought the same thing. No one seems to cover this though. It looks just like the arena in the erdtree boss fight

[@aaronuhrlaub2081]

This would make a certain sense realistically. There are a bunch of references to "all life coming from the Erdtree" throughout the entire game. Could be literal in the case of our character. Even Melina talks about how she was born at the foot of the Erdtree

[@simonediblasi8950]

but why? I don't think it makes any sense. Marika is inside the Erdtree and we probably come from outside TLB. No one seems to cover it because it doesn't concile with the rest of the game

[@aaronuhrlaub2081]

@simonediblasi8950 well Marika is the one who calls us to TLB and like you said, she is inside the tree, imprisoned there for her crimes. Makes sense that this where our soul would first come to first, then we get reborn into a new body and sent off to become elden lord. That's how I think of it anyway.

[@simonediblasi8950]

@@aaronuhrlaub2081 but we don't get a new body, it's the same we had before (eg: a warrior descending from hoara loux, or an astrologer), and we appear at the church of anticipation. It wouldn't make any sense for our dead body to be inside the Erdtree before grace revives us and beckons us to TLB

[@thevestere]

Holy shit this makes so much sense. Marika states that her children that do not amount to anything would be cast aside. If we're a Tarnished of NO renown it would follow that we were punished for not making something of ourselves if we were in fact a Demigod. "But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."

[@halcyon6098]

Meaning git gud or die die die....😂😂😂

[@rjramrod]

When we're talking about realizing one's life ambitions like this, I think true "failure" can ultimately only come at the point of death-so long as you're still alive & kicking, you still have a shot at making your indelible mark on the world And once you're dead, you're officially labeled a failure & entombed in a walking mausoleum as a sacrifice-you never did anything noteworthy, so now your only purpose at that point is to wait for somebody more powerful to come along, claim your essence & use it to synthesize a duplicate of some other entity who became powerful & influential enough to be forever remembered throughout history by having its image & story hewn into the Erdtree as a Remembrance As a tarnished of no renown, it makes sense that this is the fate which originally befell our character Why the Grace of the Erdtree gives us a chance to cheat death & escape such a fate by choosing us specifically for resurrection is an entirely different question for which we may never have a definitive answer fake edit: unless of course the answer is just "this is a video game & we're the MC"

[@lexmortis5722]

Or we are just aa nobody out of Godfreys presumably hundreds of tarnished. More likely that we are just " ´some dude" since Vyke could have become Lord and he aint no demigod

[@delmoneto]

Actually I think it is a warning of Marika to their children. The “Greater Will” is a parasite in the Lands Between, and want nothing with someone that can’t achieve it’s desire. You can’t see it when the two finger says that the demigods were cast aside by the Greater Will, all of them, and want you the tarnished, to kill them and take their grace for yourself so you can use it as a champion to the Greater Will. Why? Simply because no one of them prevailed in the war. The closest winners were Radahn and Malenia, but they had a tie and were forsaken. Miquella was just too great to follow the Greater Will, as was Ranni. Both strayed away into their own objetives. We are just tools to be used… You can either be great, or you will be sacrificed and have you grace taken by someone better suited to carry the parasite will. And thats what marika realized, and rebelled against, breaking the elden ring. In the end, even her body was destroyed and used the carcass as a puppet. And when we beat that puppet, the Elden Beast use it to creste a sword! The Erdtree is the evil in the lands between, using life energy to it’s benefit, and that why we burn it

[@teddybonzo8460]

of no renown in this setting means of no family to claim, meaning pretty much b@st@rds the demigod kids were raised by her they didnt make themselves anything they quite literally were groomed for success to a level, even mohg and margrette, there was a speculation (like all elden ring lore videos are) that mesmerr was the 1st child, and that the father was that old man next to the blond lady in the dlc trailer. he being in the shadow realm could be that marika forsook him. or Marika was a treesh and had babies all over the place for contingency, which makes the most sense imo. she is a doomist planting seeds all over the place for whatever potential adversary she faces in the future. She is pretty much japanese fantasy fictions Batman, and we are all in the bat family. we are probably a demigod like they said but isnt everyone descended from one another, the warrior chick whose last name is laux is a descendent of the 1st elden lord, even Godrick is a descendent of him. it makes sense that the lady with a god complex might have actually planted the seeds for the mortals in her world to be related to her in some way or form. but again we all just speculating at the end of the da

[@ScarletEdge]

Tomato-chan is probably the sweetest KZbin channel name.

[@ZayftheScholar]

It is! He has a really dark sense of humor too which is a funny contrast.

[@Mr._Galaxywide]

A very interesting potential lore tidbit is how the often looked over info from the starting classes. The hero is a decedent of Hoarah Loux, the Astrologer is called an HEIR to the school of glintstone sorcery (a potential translation error or could be connected to Carian royalty), the warrior is likely of the same tribe as the blue dancer, etc...

[@PixelOverload]

Ah yeah, that too, this theory really does a good job of not making _any_ sense in the context of the actual game

[@gunsevenwhillans420]

Hero is not a descendant of Hoarah Loux, just an elite warrior of his army. In cut content, He Who Walks Alongside Flame was meant to be a child of Hoarah Loux however - and there still seem to be some leftovers that could imply it (I.E. "Well, thou art of passing skill. Warrior blood must truly run in thy veins... Tarnished.")

[@_aibber]

@@gunsevenwhillans420 Hoarah Loux's title is "chieftain of the badlands", and the hero is "descended from a badlands chieftain" according to the flavor text in the character creation, and since Hoarah Loux is the only one in game with this title, I think it's safe to assume that it is referring to him. One difference though, is that the japanese text is written as hearsay/speculation, it says that the hero is "considered to be a descendant", instead of stating it as a fact like the english version does.

[@gunsevenwhillans420]

@@_aibber Hm. I need to look into that again.

[@Mr._Galaxywide]

@@gunsevenwhillans420 The hero starting classes description heavily suggests that he is, "A stalwart Hero, at home with a battleaxe, descended from a badlands chieftain..." the main point being that the hero is a dependent if a badlands chieftain. Horah Loux is the only recorded badlands chieftain not to mention the hero wears the exact same gear as Nepheli Loux. It the connection with battle axes and thematic connection would make sense calling a barbarian a "hero" its odd when there are other characters.

[@dwhite-mann5399]

Maybe we don't wake at a mausoleum because our body has to be united with our head and then be blessed by grace. So our murdered maiden at the start reunited them and then was killed?

[@guillaumesuchet9263]

If so, we should find an empty mausoleum in the game

[@berkebora9956]

⁠@@guillaumesuchet9263Maybe in dlc but also it is important to consider the fact that we may not be able to since it could have been destroyed upon our resurrection.

[@insomniacvoid9364]

The first enemy you encounter is a grafted scion, so maybe our maiden was looking for a way to graft our head back onto our body and got killed in the process? Maybe the reason we don't find an empty mausoleum at the start is because we died in a far off land away from home, which might also hint as to why our starting location was on the coastline - perhaps after being shipwrecked.

[@yusufamin7243]

Then what about ranni’s words “ godwyn” he is the first demigod died

[@guillaumesuchet9263]

@@yusufamin7243 Godwin's death is obviously quite singular and we have no idea how the people in the mausoleums died ... but it was certainly a different death. Also, Renna (oops Ranni) is lying to us about a lot of elements at the beginning of the game

[@burghleyimeanberdly6513]

It's a cool theory but doesn't really add up. The Tarnished are Godfrey, his warriors and their descendants, they lost their grace when Marika cast them out as learned from Melina in one of the churches of Marika. Also every single starting class (except the astrologer) is explicitly from somewhere outside the Lands Between, and the Tarnished being a Demigod undercuts the main theme of every single FromSoft game, namely that you are just the latest of a long, long line of people to have tried this, and that you just happened to be the one to do it, your success built on the corpses of those who came before you (remember where you get all of your items from?) The Tarnished were returned their Grace as a last resort to fix the Elden Ring, their revival was plan Z. And besides if you were revived in a walking mausoleum, why do you start in an offshore island surrounded by cliffs?

[@niwaka273]

I agree. This whole "possible interpretation" is based on merely two information. It feels like they wanted to believe something and stitched it together to make sense. I personally don't like this way of reasoning.

[@kingkitty026]

They tell you why you don't revive in a mausoleum in the theory and it's not like revival is instant usually in any game with respawn that isn't cod takes awhile in-between dying and respawning

[@hogsrider8319]

Godfreys warriors are the first tarnished, not all

[@pooperdooper3576]

I believe that the Tarnished are all those from outside of the lands between. It makes sense how they were all guided by grace to the Lands Between to become Lord. The low-key racism makes sense as well since they're foreigners, and it makes sense that each and every one of the starting classes are Tarnished, even though they all come from different areas. If only Godfrey and his warriors were tarnished, then if you picked anything other than the barbarian starting class, you would not be Tarnished.

[@bert7560]

It's possible Godfrey wasn't the first demigod who was banished from the land between, considering its long history. There could be other Ancient/unknown demi-gods who was in service of Marika before she banished them. One of them could be Marika's child before she's married to Godfrey. That's why all of them are capable of defeating demi gods and use the great runes.

[@kirkfogg8366]

remember that line offnir utters on defeat? "i knew it in my bones... no *man* can kill a God..." the line makes so much more sense now, he comes to the realization of what you are and the irony of missing this one demi god just makes him so much more of a fool.

[@2JOfficial]

Please continue giving us more lore theories that the Japanese have come up with because the English ones are getting stale

[@krystasullivan3098]

idk man, have you noticed how the drake talisman depicts a map? blew my fucking mind

[@__someone___]

Everywhere I go , I see you commenting. Α ρε 2j πόσο γαμάτο είναι το elden ring

[@JAI_SHREE_RAM12337]

Yes man

[@curtisfarley6558]

This

[@simonediblasi8950]

​@@krystasullivan3098 PLS NO

[@brockmatthews101]

Very interesting when also considering the last thing that Gideon says after you defeat him. “A man cannot slay a god”

[@daveski7]

But they can and have. The Godskins did exactly that.

[@gunsevenwhillans420]

​@@daveski7The only members of the Godskin Cult who can really be classified as human are the Black Flame Monks.

[@daveski7]

@@footballfanboy9680 they didn't "have" destined death, they served it/him. Maliketh has the Rune of death and the only other known piece was the blades used to kill Ranni and Godwyn.

[@KaedNinescarred]

​@@daveski7this is only applicable if giant stretchy snake people count as men

[@courier6640]

"Not even you" implies that either 1, he is dead wrong and you are strong enough to do so, or 2, he is right, and you are no mere man, regardless of your strength.

[@Shizn0id]

heres the thing about that....your tarnished like all the other important npcs that they show in the opening cutscene are regaining their grace and coming back to life where they last died after having lost their grace the first time marika renounced them, fia with a dead king in a crypt, godfrey pined to a tree in some wasteland, giddion in a tomb surrounded by his servant spies etc, and your tarnished is on the floor of the arena where you fight Radagon inside the erdtree at the end of the game. your tarnished for whatever reason is revived at the beginning of the game inside the erdtree at the feet of marika and then transported to the room near stormveil castle.

[@lexmortis5722]

Nah, no golden leaves, it aint the "stump"

[@tetrahedron9196]

You are spot on. The bass sound is from the initial cinematic trailer, its not stomps but the shattering and reforging of the elden ring. The beginning always reminded me of "things betwixt" from Dark Souls 2.

[@theenderdestruction2362]

I feel like we are basically the greater wills last resort a sorta nuclear option

[@tetrahedron9196]

@@theenderdestruction2362 just like in DS3

[@theenderdestruction2362]

@tetrahedron9196 basically but more pointent, basically it kinda feels like we are the greater wills child? Idk, basically, it feels like the greater will only chose us as the last one cause of how uncontrollable we are or something

[@Araneus21]

Walking Mausoleums only house the headless demigods. Chapel of ANTICIPATION, as in, awaiting for something to happen, is where the Demigods get resurrected at, either being brought there from their mausoleums, or, the Chapel itself being a prototype version of such a mausoleum, seeing it may have been sooo much more magnificent in the past, being ruined either during the Shattering or... by someone who actually knew the place's actual purpose and wanted it to cease function.

[@JGrantUK]

Holy. Fucking. Shit. 🤯

[@tejastakalkar7924]

Is it written somewhere that chapel of anticipation is for ressurecting demigods?

[@JGrantUK]

@@tejastakalkar7924 no, but Araneus21 never stated it as fact.

[@lexmortis5722]

How can you claim that thee chapel of anticipation is a place of resurrection if we could have been simply been teleported/summoned there by an incantation? What you tipped is pure speculation at best

[@thomasdevlin5825]

Chef's kiss, this side theory is immaculate. I always felt like that name had to have some kind of significance but I had no idea what it could be

[@evilmac9623]

Another clue to this is Gideon's Dialog, which I always thought was strange... That he knows in his heart that a tarnished could not become Elden lord. I have always assumed that the headless demigods were in reference to headless vampire burials. They would cut off their heads to prevent them from rising and haunting them. Which kind of makes sense that considering rebirth is such a common theme in elden ring.

[@murderycatdoll1380]

Lol Had the same thought!

[@tomisinolapo2317]

In as much as this might make sense, the second half of the dialogue states “a tarnished cannot become a lord , NOT EVEN YOU. A man Cannot Kill a god. The “not even you” is not so clear . Perhaps we can hear the Japanese version

[@murderycatdoll1380]

Oh...true xD hmmm

[@evilmac9623]

@@tomisinolapo2317 Hmm true, I forgot that.

[@ImpendingApotheosis]

​@tomisinolapo2317 I mean, it's fairly easily explained by him thinking we are also just a tarnished. The "not even you" basically meaning that despite our great accomplishment so far, we're still just a tarnished

[@Akant0r9]

When I saw the thumbnail, I was like “So we just making random theories about anything now”. But after watching the video, it’s actually pretty interesting and I want to believe it.

[@murderycatdoll1380]

Hahaha Same lol I wasn't sold till they directs comparison. After that i had a WTF Moment xD

[@miceatah9359]

Sounds like nonsense

[@Kazanko28]

@@miceatah9359 I agree. There is literally no indication that we are a demigod. We are a descendant of a tarnished which were Godfrey’s warriors when they were banished from the Lands Between. We are 100% not a demigod. That would ruin how cool it would be that we are a nobody who rose to challenge the gods, and won.

[@Omar-um4nn]

​@@Kazanko28 It would still be pretty cool because then we would have a better claim to the elden throne than anyone else, and we would be claiming OUR throne by right though the idea of conquest is slightly better and cooler

[@leonlai8270]

That japanese KZbinr is a troll, this theory is a joke. Even himself point out that it contradicting the fact that we can choose starting class.

[@zhongli5689]

One reason we could just not spon in a mausoleum is that that door acted like a teleport gate, and teleport us to where our maiden would’ve waited for us

[@flipo010]

Crazy way to spell spawn

[@tricky2917]

I always found it interesting that the player can use larval tears at all. Maybe that's a kind of hint as to who the father might be.

[@shearedsheep7009]

Could they be children of Marika from before she became a God? If so, it would make sense for them to be illegitimate since they weren't born from the coupling of an Elden Lord and a God, but instead from some random guy and a future God.

[@lodapow173]

Who's they here? The other demigods?

[@leperface]

@@lodapow173 The corpses in the walking mausoleums.

[@courier6640]

It's hilarious to imagine that she was "for the streets" before being chosen as Empyrean.

[@nickcarroll8565]

@@courier6640greater will is a simp

[@thatonedudeyousawb4]

⁠@@courier6640” ay man, did you hear Marika is gonna be Empyrean? She been with half the eternal cities!”

[@mazmyth1799]

If the demigods in the mausoleums are Illegitimate child's of merica. Then I propose the father for each child is based off of the character classes to choose from. The warrior is from a nomadic tribe who the blind swordsman was apart of. The blind swordsman was said to be strong enough to seal the god of rot away.

[@davisiotta489]

It would be very interesting if he was one of our possible fathers, it would explain why Marika would keep him around to the point of making him Malenia's master maybe if we choose Hero that would make Godfrey our father, but only from a time when he was still hoarah loux and not married to Marika making us an illegitimate child

[@archaicruinx]

'Merica!

[@Dragonsworn864]

I hope to fight this Guy so much...

[@JC-Alan]

Marika was out there hooking up with the strongest person from every different culture

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

It is a legend. Game even states so with the flowing blade. They most likely vanquished mushroom lords and redirected the river to wash away stagnation of Rot God. However, essense is so strong that even while diluted by holy river, it is still most potent source of Rot damage, even surpassing Malenia's.

[@Fedorchik1536]

This actually makes a lot of sense. And also brings us back to ancient Greek myths about heroes (i.e. demigods) hidden from everyone in some secluded spots who eventually go into world and change everything. Like Paris or Achilles from Trojan war.

[@endertuber8300]

Mmmh... I'm not too sure, as meta-roleplay is viable and fun, but as actual canon lore, it has some few holes... mostly because of three things: - We are told by Miyazaki himself that the Tarnished are Godfrey's warriors who were exiled from the Lands Between, and the vast majority (our character included) are their descendants returning from beyond the Sea of Fog, the only exceptions are those few Tarnished who were actually alive during Godfrey's reign and the Long March (like Godfrey himself and Istvan) - The characters all come with classes, each with its own lore, almost all of them taking place outside of the Lands Between or definetly after the Long March, and (if we really want to be picky) with pre-fixed races, some of which would come with major lore-changing implications if they were to be demigods... one could say that the Wretch could fit the "shamefull illegitimate child" but it would make one class canon over the others and go against the fundamental RPG nature of the souls-borne formula... - Soulless Demigods are soulless, they are dead for good, at least their spirits, if Grace could revive a soulless demigod why not revive freaking Godwyn of all peoples? Why revive ONLY a random failure like us and not the other soulless demigods along with it? The Tarnished are already the Plan B of the Greater Will/Marika after the living Demigods failed at restoring Order, if other demigods could be revived and used in the same fashion as Godfrey's warriors, why not have them be the Plan B and leave the Tarnished as Plan C? There are also a couple of smaller reasons for this theory to be hardly possible, like: -The demigods are all renounced by the Greater Will, and to be put to sword for their Runes, why one of them should be spared? (but I'll admit this is a weak one since we can decide to spare some Demigods and even marry one of them as a finale) -Even if "we are main character" on its own is actually a proper explanation (since it's the same in every Souls-borne and kind of a staple in RPGs), the in-game reasons we can best in combat those legends of yore are acceptable: because in some capacity they are shadows of themselves past their prime, we often get help from others (like, we need a legendary unique weapon to kill Rykard, he is incredibly out of our league without the serpent hunter), Melina gives us the ability to grow in power by drawing from the strenght of runes and Grace, literally divine blessing, allows us to return death after death as long as we have the willpower to fight and achieve our goals... we burn bright with the flame of ambition.

[@Hop3.]

Well said.

[@CamdenWalding]

Only thing I disagree with you with is that Goldwyn died because the rune of death.

[@endertuber8300]

@@CamdenWalding He was nor the only one tho. He's said multiple times that he was the first to die, so it can be inquired that the soulless demigods are the other demigods who fell at the hands of the Black Knives

[@CamdenWalding]

@@endertuber8300 I mean his entire body got fucked up

[@endertuber8300]

@@CamdenWalding because as he died they carved the half hallowbrand on his back alongside Ranni, "splitting death" between the two: he died in soul while Ranni died in body. The rest of the demigods just died.

[@Lyonatan]

I mean basically all the outer gods including the greater will tries to get to you so you must be something important or with great potential

[@davisiotta489]

would definitely explain why mechanically we are able to learn any magic from any outer god

[@Solibrae]

I think several characters remark on how people seem to want to trust us intrinsically, unless we give them a reason not to. Could just be a joke about the way things usually go in these kind of RPGs, or something more. Miquella connections, perhaps?

[@nepi7847]

@@davisiotta489 then again gideon is also able to wield a wide variety of sorceries and incantations depending on who we defeat ranging from bloodflame incantations from Mohg and the formless mother, black flame incantations from the godskins and Gloam Eyed Queen, scarlet aeonia from Malenia and the goddess of rot etc as well as golden order incantations

[@Lyonatan]

@@Solibrae Godricks real

[@daveski7]

Tries to get you? In what way?

[@findalfin3243]

Takin into account GRR Martin, I wouldnt be surprised if the father was Mesmer lol

[@ghotiphoti]

LMFAO i mean we already have a pair of siblings who were born cursed - i can only assume they're some sort of divine birth defect from being selfcest babies

[@azureascendant994]

Or Godwyn.

[@minhyeubanlamnha8112]

@@azureascendant994but Godwyn is son of Marika

[@azureascendant994]

@@minhyeubanlamnha8112 GRRM has a lot of incest in his writing.

[@Arcessitor]

@@minhyeubanlamnha8112 So is Mesmer.

[@fmltwice8533]

I can’t help but feel that the ghost npc near the mausoleum was actually hinting at Messmer, him being the oldest and possibly the reason for other illegitimate children being beheaded and guarded. Also it’s funny how miquella just wanted to cure himself and his sister and give his brother a true death but figured out something he shouldn’t have and found himself in a entire rabbit hole of lies, deception, scandals and a bloody coverup. I’d want nothing to do with my fate either.

[@Nechromachia]

You missed the opportunity to include Gideon’s line, “A Tarnished cannot become a Lord, not even you. A man cannot kill a god.”

[@thecommentguy9380]

I think that part was just him acknowledging our ability since we have done feats no other tarnished has ever done, but in the end we're all tarnished, and no mortals can hope to kill a god

[@vsevolodpoddyh8191]

That might mean that we are not just a mere tarnished and Gideon knows something about us (our godhood?).

[@lexmortis5722]

Gideon should have done his homework because gods have been slain a lot in the past and its not the man who does the killing, its the weapon that kills and a max lv weapon has the power to harm and kill gods. Nerd aint even good at his gig

[@Guava5612]

Well he was technically right. He, a man, couldn't kill me.

[@RoshDroz]

​@@lexmortis5722Gideon the all-misunderstanding

[@tomisinolapo2317]

This theory changes everything. Also Enia dialogue where she talks about taking the shards from the other demigods and having their heads. The last part of this dialogue says “you are here to take, are you not”? which resonates with Melinas speech where Marika spoke to her demigod children

[@tetrahedron9196]

Always resonated with me that you were not unlike the other demi-gods in that sense. Your goal is in essence the same.

[@pooperdooper3576]

That also resonates with how the Tarnished are meant to pick up after the demigods, and how they are there to "put the demigods to the sword"

[@XVDragonGaming]

Godrick is the weakest demigod we fight, and the All-Knowing guy says that was a watered-down relation. So, it would make sense we could be a very weak/ young demi-god or distant relation to Marika and as we convert runes to strength, get gear, and find spells/ashes of way we are awakening some of our power.

[@davisiotta489]

Godrick was never born weaker than the other demigods, he simply didn't have the force of will to get stronger and use the maximum potential of his demigod blood, we are probably of even more diluted blood and yet by sheer force of will we are capable of surpassing all other demigods

[@davisiotta489]

all the other demigods were not born more powerful, they simply had the determination to become stronger and that is what they became, people believe that Godrick was weaker due to lack of divine blood but in reality what he lacked was determination

[@pancakke08]

@@davisiotta489 This is head cannon. The game states he is of distant relation and his demigod blood is diluted.

[@davisiotta489]

@@pancakke08 I'm not saying he isn't, I'm saying people in the lands between think that's the reason when in reality he just doesn't really have the determination to get stronger

[@rafsandomierz5313]

@@davisiotta489 Malenia was born powerful because God of rot so she got master who allowed her to control it, Morgott and Mogh got blessings from before Golden Order and only achieved things during shattering, Ranni was already into being chosen Emperyan, Rykard allowed himself to be consumed by the serpent, Godwyn was loved by everyone which probably boosted him greatly. Though Radahann, Morgott and Godrick have one thing in common 3 of them wanted to prove themselves before their fathers. The thing is Morgott and Radahann succeeded, Godrick didn't.

[@BigGuyJoh]

My crackpot hypothesis was just that we were directly chosen by the Greater Will, with my only piece of evidence being that we are the only _Tarnished_ that can respawn endlessly, even after dieing to Maliketh, who literally wields a permadeath blade. Of course, this is, most likely, entirely disproven by the fact that you can choose to burn the world down in defiance of the Greater Will, so my hypothesis is nothing more than a neat idea at most.

[@gabrielclark1425]

The Frenzied Flame, like all other Outer Gods, is just an aspect of the Greater Will, specifically it's self doubt about whether life is a good thing after all this fucking bullshit it's had to deal with. Bascially, that ending is letting the Intrusive Thoughts win.

[@chakravartin3356]

We are indeed can't die, but die countlessly ingame is not canon in my opinion. The game implies that our tarnished never lose a single battle throughout his journey to become the elden lord. That's how strong he is. That's why the community treated tarnished like some weak little turd is cringe in my opinion. We projecting our failure onto him literally. The only die shown in the game is when we fall from the church of anticipation in the beginning. We are supposed to defeated grafted scion and dies by falling off of cliff, not by that scion. The ocean drifts our bodies from liurnia to limgrave

[@SupChad735]

The greater will has chosen you, but you, the tarnished still have free will.

[@meatyclock]

Are you saying my blue wife is my sister

[@Sezof10]

Why do you even care ? marika just married herself (radagon)

[@cyrowing1552]

Step sister

[@RaraPremium]

Half* because radagon is Marika ​@@cyrowing1552

[@Jozaru0112]

Keep it in the blood line 😂😂😂😂

[@21dragneel30]

@@cyrowing1552 Half-sister, since Radagon and Marika are the same

[@j0eyz]

Maybe the theories about the old man in the DLC trailer were correct and Messmer is his child but as well as that we are also born from the old man and Marika. Potentially making the old man our father and Messmer our brother?

[@Ahhhhh638]

That would add even more to the fact that messmer seems to be the first true antagonistic for a souls protagonist in a game.

[@NorthstriderGaming]

I'm tempted to believe this theory if there wouldn't be some character class descriptions that defy that idea - some of our classes are descendants of the original first tarnished that were exiled alongside Godfrey. So the Tarnished that we see ingame are a future generation, which at this point, has no ties with anything that could have spawned from Marika at this time. The Tarnished are not THE Tarnished that first left the Lands Between. Our Tarnished is a successor and we don't know how many generations have passed ever since then and it is quite unlikely that Godfrey or Marika would have had any offsprings among them to reproduce futher. Vyke is another constant in the formula that defies the Demigod idea - Vyke could have become Elden Lord and he is no demigod at all. He's just like us - a pillaging Tarnished.

[@DellikkilleD]

thats silly. Tarnished are immortal, there is no reason you are from a later generation, or that there *are* later generations of tarnished. Nothing indicates marika continued to make more tarnished, nor that the children of tarnished would be tarnished themselves.

[@MalkuthSephira]

@@DellikkilleD as far as i can tell most of the original tarnished were just, people who in some way worked under godfrey and previously did have grace. so even if there are more generations of tarnished, which i agree seems off, a very very wide variety of people could have qualified to become them, and it's honestly hard to come up with literally any explanation for the mausoleums even existing other than as a way to hit pause on certain people's resurrection cycles and/or hide them temporarily with that as an excuse. i legitimately cannot think of a single other thing in the whole game that even hints at why illegitimate demigods were going into the giant stone turtle instead being buried under space trees

[@saintblackwater7213]

Ah, the Unnamed. I can be of use, I think. If you have the paitence to read through context, then here you go. Keep in mind that much of Marika's actions were in facilitating the Greater Will, and that the Greater Will is a malicious parasite dead set on feeding upon unending life, to the detriment of all who live. Keep in mind also that Marika was originally a numen, the same race as the Nox, and therefore likely the same race as the Gloam-Eyed queen. It's early to speculate given the DLC hasn't cone out yet to confirm what species the Gloam-Eyed queen was, but my intuition tells me that the GEQ and Marika were related - maybe even sisters. Maybe twin sisters. Who knows, only that the GEQ and Marika were both empyreans in the age of the crucible. GEQ was the holder of the rune of death, and Marika was seduced by the GW with the promise of eternal life and bounty. It's a tale as old as time, really. Insofar as the unnamed mossoleum Demi-Gods are concerned, we can stipulate the following: 1. Marika had doubts about the golden order, which is identified by some of her speeches, namely the "the days of blind faith are long gone" and "I shall search the depths of the order" lines. This shows that she had begun to plot against the Greater Will before Godwyn's death. It's possible she did so long before, keeping in mind the timeline. It is unclear exactly when her doubts turned to action, but Godfrey is a good example of the turning point. Godfrey was a tool that Marika used in blind faith to the Greater Will's plans, that is, until she took that step in her long game by banishing Godfrey and his armies (who would have been The GW's tools by proxy). It's furthermore likely that Radagon (being the fanatic) was a creation of the Greater Will, perhaps at the behest of Marika originally (this being parallel to the concept of Rubric, which the three seemingly are based on). Radagon, at that point a free and separate entity, married and neutralized Rennala. The Greater Will, through Marika, beckoned its creation return home. Radagon, originally a simple warrior, had become enamored in incantations (GW order) while married, and so was likely brought to heel by the GWs religious seduction. Returning to the rubric concept, at some unidentified point, two became one, and so the GW further bent its vessel to its absolute will. Still, the fire of rebellion inside Marika resisted, and did not die out. In continuing her long game, she warns cryptically that should her children fail, they shall be sacrificed. 2. The rune of death was removed upon the creation of the golden order - which was the Greater Will's *will*, not Marika's. We know the greater will gives shadows to it's vessels, as evinced by by Blaith and Ranni. Despite Blaiths loyalty, he was there to enforce the GW - so too would Maliketh serve this purpose. We know the GW hates destined death, so Maliketh was scaled appropriately to safeguard it. To upend the source of the Greater Wills power and restore the power to kill a god, it is likely that Marika facilitated its being stolen through Ranni. Keep in mind that the black knife assassin's, and furthermore the Nox, are Marika's people, the former serving her and the later being her cousins, if not kin (The Nox and Numen are related). Ranni doesnt even know how to get to Noxstella. So, Marika plots to reintroduce death. Her unnamed Demi-God children were the planned sacrifices that she was willing to make, and so orchestrated the night of the black knives. Ranni would take the blame, Marika would trick the GW and move forward with her bid to freedom. A brilliant element in a larger plan from a clever woman, but like all plans, it doesn't always happen according to the letter. It's unexplained how Ranni came to know the lore of the rune of death, and how by killing herself at the same time as another god would have its effect (bodily death for her, soul death for godwyn), but it is clear that Ranni has no love for Marika - Marika, after all, destroyed her mother's mind. It is possible that the witch who taught ranni her spellcraft was as nox/numen, and may have been a loose end that failed to be purged. Perhaps said witch served the GEQ, and so was able impart that knowledge to Ranni. At any rate, we know the assassin's were successful in their heist, and many Demi-Gods were killed on the night of the black knives. If Ranni had played along, a simple misdirection (Godwyn being tricked into being in the wrong place at the wrong time) would have been sufficient to kill Godwyn. Its interesting that the stipulation about this method of killing empyreans with the rune of death is that the two must die at the same time in order for the result to be halved. And so, under the full moon, they held him down and carved the rune of death into his back. They left, figuring his death was just the same as the others. As far as they were concerned, they knew where he'd be at a specific time. They didn't know what their handiwork would cause. Elsewhere, under the full moon, Ranni had her back ritually cut as well (I suspect Iiji performed this), killing her bodily. The night is a success. Marika has eradicated demigods, and proven that even a shard of destined death is sufficient for her purposes (creating a weapon to slay a god, or perhaps her shadow). But wait, Godrick and Godefroy are alive? I imagine her heart pounding and her cheeks burning as she immediately realizes something is terribly wrong, for indeed it is. Her beloved golden child, Godwyn, is dead. In a mother's terrible anguish and rage, she overpowers radagon and destroys the elden ring. The GW knows. Radagon attempts to repair it, exerting control once more for its master. Deep inside, Marika's broken spirit looks to her failures and perhaps tastes the bitterness of her GIGANTIC hubris for the first time. Perhaps she thought of the gloam eyed queen (her sister?) for the first time, really and truly, for a long time. Either way, Radagon cannot repair it, try as he might. For this, they are crucified on the rune arc looking thing inside the erdtree, officially discarded by the GW, who seeks a new vessel. The DLC trailer clearly shows Marika creating the Erdtree in its current form. While debated that the GEQ is featured, if the theory is correct that she is there, then Malenia saying her mother is at the foot of the Erdtree gives credence to Malenia being the daughter of the GEQ. If so, it's likely that the shattering of the ring released the spirit of the GEQ. I could keep going, but, to summarize: Marika tries and fails to usurp the GW after orchestrating the night of the black knives. Our unknown demigods, the worthless lot or descended, are killed. Ranni disappears, and Godwyn, beloved Godwyn, is dead. If we are one of them, well, shit.

[@TomClarke1995]

I always figured the tarnished were related to Marika via the offspring of the other demigods. Like I figured the demigods all had children throughout time with members of humanity, and their children had children with other men. At least a spark of divinity inhabits each tarnished, and it makes sense the tarnished were led by Godfrey out of the lands between to wage war until they were called back. It’s actually really interesting that the only non-tarnished mob we can fight is Kenneth Haight. Maybe I’m forgetting others though.

[@zach4281]

This could set up some conflict between the tarnished and Miquella, if somehow the attempt to revive godwin resulted in the rebirth of the tarnished.

[@thobycameron5308]

ARE WE GODWYN?!

[@tropezando]

​@@thobycameron5308 We accidentally Godwyn 😮

[@vsevolodpoddyh8191]

But Godwyn is legitimate and beloved son of Marika. If we are rebirthed demigod why we got rebirthed from wandering mausoleum? What it has to do with actual Godwyns body buried under the Erdtree?

[@zach4281]

@@vsevolodpoddyh8191 If this unwanted demigod is soulless, and we are that demigod, either we never had a soul or we just sorta happened upon one. I don’t think it’s likely but it definitely isn’t impossible Specifically, if there was an attempt to duplicate Godwyn’s soul that didn’t quite work out, it’s possible we ended up with it. Absolute unfounded speculation but a cool thought

[@thobycameron5308]

@@zach4281 hahaha, I was mostly just trying to come up with something insane but I agree that it’s definitely not impossible.

[@strangepro4]

Also would like to note that we are always shown to be important from the very beginning. Where we spawn at there was an entire bridge built so someone would be able to reach us as well as a portal to access the area by the bells. Not only that but if you pay attention to the opening dialogue the narrator tells “us” to become the Elden Lord as opposed to everyone else. All of the other NPCs go around and do their own thing for a while before we came along. “A tarnished of no renown” also doesn’t mean that we didn’t have renown before just means that we currently have none. We could have been an important figure in the past but were stripped of glory or enough time passed to where we were forgotten. Also if we weren’t important at all you would think that just calling us a tarnished would be enough.

[@theenderdestruction2362]

I feel like we are the greater wills last resort, a sorta nuclear option when all else fails, the greater will pretty much trys to get anyone else to become elden lord and well it all fails,

[@ayden8p26]

The cutscene from the dancing lion fight in the DLC would seem to support this as Marika is referred to as a strumpet and us her vile progeny

[@Cad8ane]

Oh...then i feel shame as her 1 of her child (if i am)

[@vasylpark2149]

I think I figured it out. In the opening cutscene where the statue of Marika is overlooking corpses where the narrator says, "rise now ye tarnished.". there are several coffins those coffins in design are very similar to the coffins that hold the headless demigods. I believe that in the opening cinematic we are held inside a massive walking mausoleum. Quite possibly not in the lands between.

[@MonteMind]

I guess Boc wants to call you "M'lord" for a reason...

[@abigcupofwater]

This is a good point. Several NPC's really want to treat you as a Lord, so it's definitely a motif at the very least

[@kreadapelu8813]

Headlessness, I think is a precaution against deathblight. Runes make eyes glow, right? Deathblight is fragments of the Rune of Death. Deathblight builds up in the eyes and leaks like we see in the opening with Godwyn. These mausoleum demigods were entombed before Godrick played with Godwyn’s living corpse. So they did not know you just had to remove the eyes to avoid deathblight forming. Of course, there’s also a difference between soulless because the soul is dead inside a living body and soulless because there is no soul present in the living body. I don’t articulate at the moment, hopefully this makes sense.

[@scorpiowarrior7841]

Nothing in the game really indicated that Godrick did anything with Godwyn's body but yeah.

[@kreadapelu8813]

@@scorpiowarrior7841 oh, I know. My thought is as follows: Godrick is obsessed with the strength and approval of his ancestors but he is a weak and pathetic dumb dumb. Godfrey, the first and greatest of his idols, achieved greatness through the Crucible. He may know of Morgott, or at least sees Margit, an omen, as an incredibly strong figure, an omen. Omen have Crucible features. The Crucible is known for that whole “blending of life” thing. Knowing his bloodline was stronger in the past, Godrick obtained a bit of Godwyn that was not yet infected with Deathblight. (I suspect Morgott brought it to him in order to use Godrick as a test subject while studying deathblight. Morgott does not guard Godrick, he guards an experiment) This bit of Godwyn grows and, as Godwyn was alive during or near to the age of the Crucible, he uses Godwyn’s living corpse’s sinew to perform his vile grafting as a crude mockery of the blending and strength associated with the Crucible. Also, Morgott’s experiment in Stormveil reveals that deathblight does not form in a soulless living corpse if they eyes are removed. It is speculative, I know. I imagine that understanding how deathblight works would be crucial to stopping it. Soulless living corpses come in two varieties, dead soul and absent soul. At first, they did not know there was a difference. They saw Godwyn and noticed his head oozing deathblight juice. So they determined it forms in the head. Mausoleum demigods were beheaded. Morgott figures out it’s the eye, not the whole head. I can’t readily recall why I think there is a difference between dead and absent souls but it seems that the thing in the cocoon has its eyes removed and I believe there is no soul in the body.

[@kimjongwin]

This makes too much sense and makes the elden ring jigsaw feel complete. Also, this would be such a George R.R Martin thing to do. Bastard child returns, kills the queen and marries his sister.

[@eternal_trickster1541]

Ranni isn't Marikas daughter

[@kimjongwin]

@@eternal_trickster1541 still makes her half sister though, through Radagon

[@jonl3609]

Tomato-chan coming clutch with the lore theories 🍅

[@mattb6616]

Why? A crown is warranted with strength. Fated to be the one because you're Marika's child is not as satisfying as being a tarnished of no renown who gains a crown through sheer overwhelming strength. But it's a very interesting theory.

[@daveski7]

Its definitely not true. This is one of the least evidenced and most far reaching theories I've heard.

[@ghotiphoti]

There's precedent for demigods being weak, and I very heavily doubt that divine heritage alone would make you powerful. There is also Marika's message to her children(8:41), where she tells them to do as they wish, but threatens to forsake them if they fail to make something of themselves. I think a god's blood grants not strength, but *potential.* Then again, Melina was the one who grants us the ability to level up.

[@Chris-hz8lj]

@@daveski7 It's not that bad, it is true that there are far more mausoleums than known demigods which automatically suggests that there are many demigods we haven't met. Some weaker than others such as Godrick. Biggest hick up in my opinion is that you clearly don't start the game in the lands between.

[@legion4902]

The starting cutscene literally makes it known that we ourselves are destined for throne already.

[@NickCombs]

I'd say the theory is that we were once a demigod, not that we currently are one. Those demigods who died in the shattering wars were forsaken and stripped of their renown, followed and remembered only by the mausoleum knights who entered limbo out of honour of the sacrifice. This still fits nicely into the existing theme of the lowly exile returning to prove themself against much greater foes.

[@valdoryn2709]

maybe "our" father is the guy in the chapel of anticipation? the huge statue with the tree staff and head decoration that looks towards the statue of marika? i dont think i've seen his statue anywhere else in the game..

[@certifiedcib7958]

Why would there be a statue of our characters father in the chapel?

[@valdoryn2709]

@@certifiedcib7958 well... if marika is the mother why would there be a statue of hers there too?

[@certifiedcib7958]

@@valdoryn2709 because she’s the god of the realm?

[@DarkMan307]

@@certifiedcib7958 i dunno man id give anyone able to bang a 9ft tall literal goddess a freaking statue as well

[@azureascendant994]

In the chapel of anticipation, above the door way is a motif of a group of women doing multiple things surrounding a figure. That is our character.

[@brendensuarez7916]

The Armor of Solitude from the Dlc says "The nameless mausoleums of the realm of shadow are said to hold the spirits of warriors who lost their names, or their hearts" so maybe the tarnished is from one of the mausoleums of the realm of shadow instead thoughts?

[@thatfunkadeus]

When i heard the second stomp it clicked and my mouth literally fell open like a cartoon character

[@thecrankyoldman]

Okay, so... The world is a mix of Carl Jung's Human psyche model, and the gnosticism concept of the creature and the world within oneself. Marika represents the ignorant creature, and the lands between represents her mind. Marika is struggling to deal with a traumatic event (survivor's guilt, as a twin), and has locked those emotions away, guarded by the shadow. She puts on a persona in order to get through the days, but the mask has started to slip. Invaders represent intrusive thoughts, the NPCs are complexes (emotions and memories), the demi-gods are archetypes (like the mother, the sage, the martyr, the pilgrim, the lover, the rebel, the seeker, the everydayman, ect). The tarnished represent the actions that are required to achieve goals, and in Marika's mind, there aren't many actions that will ever reach their goal, because Marika's mind is weak, she's lacking determination. She's gotten close to achieving goals, but things still don't quite play out as they should have, due to self sabotage or distractions. But yah, everything is part of Marika's self. The illegitimate just seems to be actions that she was forced to take, that she just wasn't ready for.

[@ghotiphoti]

"what if all was in le head"

[@thecrankyoldman]

@@ghotiphoti there seems to be a double As above, so below. 1 is indeed just in the head. It's the concious and the unconscious. The other is the head and the womb.

[@numaruldoi3031]

I have not understood a single thing 😂😂 Is thing some kind of smart comparation i am too dumb to understand?

[@thecrankyoldman]

@@numaruldoi3031Dont worry. I think the story was made difficult to understand on purpose. Miyazaki likes to build worlds and then remove the most obvious elements, in the hope that we come up with some crazy stories ourselves. It's the dungeon master approach :) The story isnt all that different from a lot of other games out there; like some of the Final Fantasy games, the persona games, majoras mask in the zelda franchise, silent hill, genshin impact, ect :)

[@thecrankyoldman]

@@numaruldoi3031 oh, and I also think people struggle to see characters as concepts. They rather just see characters as characters.

[@murderycatdoll1380]

Maybe that's what Gideon means when saying: a man can Not become/kill a God. Because He would have no idea that we might be more then just a normal tarnished? That's why we COULD actually do it?

[@user-ly3tr4nl6d]

I mean, you have the rune of death at that point, and even a weapon reinforced with a Dragon smithing stone, which can twist time and allow you to kill a god. So it's no surprise you can kill elden beast.

[@CamdenWalding]

No he’s literally just wrong.

[@aquaisuseful682]

This changes the game for me. It’s my head canon now and it actually makes me want to go through this game. When Elden ring came out I didn’t much like the setting, I preferred the more gothic/fire aesthetic. But this is growing on me.

[@kitetales]

"Illegitimate" completely changes the tone. I wonder what the implications of the beheaded corpse are; swift and painless execution, or meant to dishonor the spirit upon revival? Really well-done video!!

[@ZayftheScholar]

Thanks so much @Kitetales! I just found your channel recently and I have been enjoying your videos as well :)

[@sk8legendz]

I've heard similar takes on this theory. Another one being that Miquella is the 1 who created us. And that's why torrent chose us

[@geb_3975]

also the eclipse is related to miquella so idk

[@throika]

You just exploded my mind! Thanks for sharing!

[@ThePandaOfYourMind]

Can we all agree that whatever our tarnished is, they are the most terrifying thing in the lands between. Imagine the demigods and you see this functionally immortal creature who's only purpose is to kill you, and they will, because you can never permanently destroy them. The tarnished is like a fantasy terminator.

[@jamesgrimsinger2713]

Very interesting theory. I'm on board with this one. U got my sub

[@ZayftheScholar]

Awesome, thank you!

[@Writh811]

This was an interesting theory. I hadn't really thought about it before but I find myself not really connecting to it. I never noticed the sounds you pointed out, that was really cool. I think I can explain them with a different theory, granted one with less lore implications: Bells in the Lands Between are used in summoning rituals especially when dealing with the dead. I think the sounds we are hearing is a bell summoning us to the Lands Between. The cries we hear are our Finger Maiden. The "Stomps" are her killer trying to get into the chapel. Who knows how much time actually passes between us seeing that white light and us waking in the chapel but either way we wake arrive to late. Her killer has gotten in, killed her and closed the doors to hide their crime. Warning incoming wall about why we can beat Demi-gods: As too why we can beat demi-gods as a Tarnished has everything to do with runes. When we arrive in the Lands Between we are a full grown adult. Whatever role we picked we can assume we were at least average or a little less. The stats at the start of the game reflect the level of ability our character could achieve living in the regular world before they died. By this logic having your stats at "peak human" likely means having 20 in everything. The Greatsword's description reads "Though handling it likely requires the wielder to have surpassed the realm of the merely human, it is precisely for this reason the weapon is used to slaughter even inhuman foes." 31 strength, 31 strength means you have surpassed the realm of merely human. Moreover, the Great Runes are just larger pieces of the Elden Ring, the smaller runes we collect along the way come from the same source. As we level up the fragments of runes within us coalesce. Within us is a developing great rune of our own that we are feeding by leveling. The Duskborn quest shows that a broken rune, even a great one, can be rebuilt in a different configuration. Goldmask shows us that nonDemi-god people can create "mending runes" which is basically just a great rune covered in rune glue. Our rune isn't externalized into the ring in any ending because we are alive and need it and perhaps don't have the knowledge of how to wield it. This can be used to explain Radagon's Great/mending? rune since we know there was definitely a point when the Elden Ring did not have the trellis pattern. Radagon's rune is in the Elden Ring now because of his merger with Marika. So, by the end of the game we are a Demi-God in the same way that Godfrey became the first Demi-god (see Godrick Great Rune for text about Godfrey's status as first) we internalized a huge mass of runic power. I can't wait for the DLC to come along prove us all wrong lol

[@petespeedsxp4967]

I love videos exploring the japanese version of the game and what japanese players have found. it's so sad to me how "wrong" the translations are sometimes. still can't get over the Ranni Ending having nearly completely different meanings in the original and in western versions. like wtf? and with the ghosts words: the "illegitimate" missing and a gender being ascribed are not just small changes or mistakes... I don't get it. I know translating japanese to english comes with a lot of interpretation but come on.

[@ZayftheScholar]

To be fair, the Japanese wouldn't translate grammatically into English without "he" so I can see why they added it. I don't know why they cut illegitimate other than it didn't sound cool. 😅 Overall, the translators did a very good job with this game and only had so much time and resources.

[@petespeedsxp4967]

​@@ZayftheScholar totally agree and i think i got a litte too mad at the translators in my comment. 😅 but in the end thank you for your work! you are giving us content many would never get in touch with.

[@MissingNo769]

nice vid, first of yours i saw, looking forward to any new stuff :D

[@SaxSlaveGael]

So excited to watch you grow Zayf! Will see you at 100k in the coming months! Seriously looking forward to your SotE content!

[@ZayftheScholar]

Sax! Thanks so much for always being so supportive brother! I'm likewise looking forward to what you put out! 💪

[@NerdOracle]

Okay, cool theory, but where's the empty Mausoleum that housed our flesh? Seems like a pretty glaring hole in the idea, even if the distorted noise is a perfect match

[@ChickenBellagio]

Could be in the shadow of the erdtree

[@NerdOracle]

@@ChickenBellagio I concur, but I was hoping for answers that draw from more than mere speculation

[@Arcessitor]

@@ChickenBellagio But that's not where we came from.

[@Kriggleton]

@@NerdOracleread a comment somewhere that said that the chapel of anticipation is called that because they are anticipating a demigod. We came from far away and our mausoleum as well

[@NerdOracle]

@@Kriggleton Seems far fetched that walking mausoleums exist outside the lands between. But may as well throw it on the pile

[@flanberry]

Loving all your videos :) Super fun to hear your thoughts and perspective, and happy to see your channel doing well :)) Thank you for another great video!

[@NickCombs]

Kudos to Tomato-chan that theory has solid, stompy legs. It makes sense that the Mausoleums are making so much noise if the lost spirits have to hear it through the fog, and why the ones with bells can copy more rememberances. The other things I know are that the mausoleums themselves are Nox-made. They're a dead ringer to the hanging sections in northern Nokron. Why would the Nox care about Marika's children? The Black Knives allowed demigods to die by killing Godwyn, and they are Numen which are (closely related to) the Nox. The Nox are looking for someone to replace Marika, as seen with the Mimic Tear. They might be holding onto demigods who were more aligned with their ideals that died in the shattering wars, to strengthen their claim in the next age and win back their night sky and the dark moon. The Mausoleum knights & soldiers seem to be aligned, since they are found in the nameless eternal city in the largest numbers. We also find a lot of them in Liurnia where the moon and stars are very powerful, and on the mountaintops where astrology began. My current theory (haven't watched anyone playing the DLC) is that the eclipsed sun symbolizes the rebirth of the dark moon, which is of course what they're trying to do at Castle Sol. So my head canon is that when Ranni takes us through her portal, the Eternal Cities are rebuilt and rise up to the surface to meet the dark moon in the sky while the Erdtree becomes just a husk like all the petrified trees found underground.

[@ZdSd-hx8lv]

Excellent find. Thank you for sharing

[@Lucas60195]

My only problem with this theory is why our tarnished would begin with templates, like vagabond knight, badlands warrior, and have a race chosen, even numen, if he had demigod ties since the beginning? Besides, in no other moment of the cutscene, it is suggested that we are headless, like all the other souless mausoleum demigod. But, interesting theory nonetheless. I think it is a from software theme that even normal humans can achieve great things, with we persist in what we do, and not give up hope. Like the chosen undead not hollowing, or our tarnished not losing the guidance of grace.

[@dZ0647]

Bc it’s a game, so it still needs to be practical. And the lore behind the classes point of being a demi god. Idk if the theory is good or not, but you have to take that into consideration that it is a game and needs game mechanics which means class templates

[@frozenpants3274]

I think you can easily come up with a head cannon about how all the classes could fit given the illegitimate line. illegitimate children of nobility in history could not inherit anything so often went on their own paths in life to do different things, you could make the arguement for all the tarnished starting classes. ( Or maybe Wrech is just the cannon starting class)

[@777Looper]

I like that this maoes Gideon "The All-Knowing" Ofnir less ludicrusly uninformed. He did know, in his bones, that a Tarnished could not become the Elder Lord. Our bones received no such memo.

[@acethefiredragon8525]

Marika is for the STREETS!! She been getting ran through and running through!

[@ZayftheScholar]

lmao 😂 I would love a "Marika is for the Streets" shirt.

[@BraveShowBoys]

It all makes sense now! The naming of the gods is either M or R. Miquella, Malenia, and us. “Maidenless.”

[@ZayftheScholar]

*chefs kiss*🤌

[@Duas-sj4vr]

😂

[@ZumbasaLP]

What if we are Miquella?

[@ZayftheScholar]

I can't tell if this is genuine or satire at this point and I love it 😂

[@ZumbasaLP]

@@ZayftheScholar "The player is an eternal child" type idea...

[@yuch4eve]

We certainly can be a miquella, but are we THE miquella?

[@MapleFried]

Paraphrasing: "Kindly Miquella divested himself of everything. His body. His *golden radiance*. Even his fate." + "And one other whom Grace would *again" bless." + Gideon not being able to find out anything about Miquella because the player IS Miquella (or at least his Animus). Hiding in plain sight, right under the All-Knowing's nose. Through context clues, we know Miquella wanted to bring about the eclipse? Why? To bring back either Godwyn, the beheaded demigods in the mausoleums, or both. If Godwyn, then the theory holds no more water; however if the soulless demigods, then who is to say that Miquella didn't undergo the same ritual in order to divest himself of everything and seperate spirit from body much like Ranni did. I'm just spitballing based on loose threads, tbh.

[@gunsevenwhillans420]

​@@MapleFriedTo be fair the "Again bless" part means nothing here, even if He Who Walks Alongside Flame wasn't Miquella before he was still grace-given at some point and then had it taken away before dying.

[@penjaamiin]

7:09 saw a theory about this, that if you look around in that room apparently the furniture is the same as in the eternal cities, which are known for trying to create artificial life so maybe it was marika trying to make artificial demi gods

[@KennerMarqueti]

Also the sounds remind me a lot of the sounds we get on new areas or on graces and when we die. Could be just them reusing sounds, but the sounds we get when we die being the same as a mausoleum sound may hold a lot of meaning.

[@SmallOneEyedKing]

And the DLC line An affair, which gold and shadow are born.

[@davisiotta489]

It is interesting that the armor used to represent the tarnished is the same that is representative of a shadow, perhaps it is not being used to represent a shadow like the ones of the Empyrean's, but rather to represent that we are an unwanted child left in the shadows possibly not being a desired product but simply the product of an affair that Marika had on her rise to power

[@SmallOneEyedKing]

@@davisiotta489 also there are so many tranished that accomplished many feats in the lands between yet like all tarnished they always end up in a tragedy. Best example is Vyke. And it also begs the questions what makes us so special if all the Tarnished are just the same quality of no renowned. HOW? is its just game logic that we are the MC. I also support this theory however like you said in the last part it contradicts this theory.

[@SmallOneEyedKing]

@@davisiotta489 Do you know the Lore of Vargram> Yeah Imlike the theory that he was once dreamed to be a Shadow of an Empyrean. And I also believed it wasn't for the gloamed eyed queen but rather he is just inspired to be of service to someone.

[@SmallOneEyedKing]

Also Eldne ring has Cosmic Horror similarto Bloodborne

[@usedcolouringbook8798]

Maybe the "Age of Plenty" with the Erdtree's golden sap was when Marika was pumping out all these demigods, there was plenty to go around.

[@Kageoth]

First, before I begin, I believe the eclipse based on the banners of the mausoleums are the completed symbol of the rune of death, though I could be mistaken. However, I would like to present another theory: The walking mausoleums house the soulless bodies of demigods, Godwyn the Golden's body has the rune of death to kill one's soul carved on the body of them, thus forcing his body unfit to house his soul any longer due to said rune. When you cause a walking mausoleum to collapse and enter it, you can use the body to reclaim any of the souls of the demigods that you had used for experience, equipment, or skills, thus suggesting that even in their destruction, their sould could potentially inhabit another form and return as the rune of death is not established within the elden ring, though they may or may not be able to reatain their form in one way or another. As for yourself, as Godwyn's body is unfit for use, the Tarnished is Godwyn The Golden reborn, albeit in a new and weaker body, and the only one who can tell and show interest in us is Torrent.

[@EyelessHelmet0]

8:13 YES, Gideon Ofnir also said “A man cannot kill a god”, and he is the all-knowing, so he is right about THAT, but he doesn’t know that Tarnished aren’t men, but demigods! 🤯 (not that all-knowing as he thought) And I don’t know why but I find this mysterious version of Elden Ring pretty creepy, but I am so curious for more lore! 📖

[@Northern14]

So... After we defeat Messmer with the help of Hornsent, he says he's gonna hunt down the rest of Marika's offspring, and then later he invades us... Does this confirm this theory?? Unless he just becomes batshit insane like Edgar or something...

[@eddieford9373]

I think the theme of all fromsoft games is that the hero of the story is someone who isn't born to anyone powerful. It's a good theory, but I'm pretty sure that goes against the main theme of their games.

[@phragmocone]

Sekiro.

[@Audio_noodle]

It was fascinating to find those same headless thingies near the finger ruins, since one of them is so close to the hinterlands and the nearby village, which seems very significant to marika wonder what the implication there is and whether mesmer is indeed just one of them who marika in desperation brought back to life just to slay the demigods who were at a standstill in the lands between

[@martinzemanek2257]

Chapel of anticipation could be remains of walking mausoleum. Architecture is simmilar.

[@frankcaggiano8282]

The intro cutscene literally calls us "a tarnished of no renown". Seems like a hell of a far cry from a demigod or anyone at all important.

[@DellikkilleD]

only if you dont understand what renown means lol.

[@frankcaggiano8282]

@@DellikkilleD renown is fame. Nobody knew who you were. You were a nobody. You can't have been a demigod. It's not hard, but apparently YOU don't know what renown means lmfao

[@MalkuthSephira]

seems pretty clear that the idea the theory puts forth includes that maybe an illegitimate demigod child wouldn't be properly recorded by history

[@harvesterofsubs5561]

I agree, but not for this theory’s reason. I think the sound-design team simply slowed down and reverberated the Walking Mausoleums’ sound because it sounded cool. And that’s a sound-designer’s job: make things sound cool as efficiently as possible. On the contrary: if Godrick is a Demi-god, simply because he’s a descendant of Godfrey, I’d think it likely that the Tarnished *were* Demi-gods (or of the power of Demi-gods) given that they had grace and were part of Godfrey’s army. And the Tarnished’s CRAZY abilities are almost godly, so that was a good point.

[@davisiotta489]

he is a demigod of diluted blood, perhaps we are too, perhaps the mention of the illegitimate child is more vague and we are not a son but rather a more distant descendant?

[@Maakyo]

I mean we’ve known for years that Miyazaki is very insistent on particular details when it comes to the point of in game cutscenes and what they mean for the larger story. I strongly doubt that they would just put a sound asset into an important cutscene that’s used elsewhere in the game for “because it sounded cool.” They know people are going to comb these games for details like a fine tooth comb, so generally I would say that it’s more likely there’s a reason for why this sound was used for your character introduction. If they just wanted cool sounds they could’ve done literally anything else, or left it silent. But they didn’t, they used a very particular sound asset and that must have an implication beyond cool factor.

[@ETBrooD]

@@Maakyo Also, if they just wanted to use these sounds because they're cool, well... they're pretty darn hard to hear. That's not exactly how a sound designer would do "cool".

[@witt669]

Thing is, Godrick isn't a Demi-god because he's Godfrey's descendant. He is because Godwyn is Demi-god, whose mother was Marika, a God. Godfrey is but a Consort, nothing godly about him. Tarnished aren't Demi-gods. At best, Godfrey (and the following Tarnished) are Demi-gods by alliance, just like Rennala's children (since officially, it is not known they are actually Demi-gods by Radagon).

[@MalkuthSephira]

@@witt669 actually it seems more like godfrey marrying a god caused him to become a demigod, because this whole thing is a weird arcane system where the correlations between concepts are forced to contain causation. so at the absolute minimum, godfrey is both a demigod and the first tarnished. it's also not clear whether godfrey's marriage-divinity would have caused his CHILDREN to count as demigods in a vacuum but since the only kids we can verify he had while he was married to marika as godfrey happened through her it does seem like nearly all his descendants still would've been divine (not clear when Nephili happened or who her mom was but it definitely seems like it wasn't marika)

[@stuckwchuck]

I open-mouth gasped when your point dawned on me. Listening to the mausoleum and the game intro, i'm amazed at your keen hearing, in addition to your knowledge of Japanese. This is Theory crafting here. Amazing work.

[@evanparker3586]

this is prolly one of the coolest lores i’ve heard of. like it makes me as a player feel like i have a place of belonging in this cinematic universe so much more

[@ravendelacour1917]

Assuming this is true, could our Tarnished be the one revived by the Castle Sol ritual? Maybe Godwyn was the primary target and the ritual backfired due to the Rune of Death's effect on Godwyn or that it was Miquella's desire all along and he deceived the ritual participants? After all according to the DLC we are Miquella's intended Lord...

[@davisiotta489]

Maybe he gave up on Godwyn when he realized we were the best fit?

[@hectorvalverde5044]

What about Vyke? Its said he was able to get great runes also.

[@gingerbread37211]

Get them yes but no clear thing saying he could use them

[@acidmax1032]

I saw the video and continued my own run, at Leyndell, Royal capital an enemy can drop the Envoy's Horn. I read the description of the item and i thought that it might be inherent to this video. The description says:"Originally an instrument, but one that cannot be sounded by mere humans. Or perhaps it is too early to sound the call." The weapon art actually makes the horn make a sound, it means that maybe the tarnished is not just a human, but actually something more.

[@theawickward2255]

I always thought that the specific Wandering Mausoleum the spirit was talking about held Messmer's body. After all, it is next to the Impaler's Catacombs. And as for the eclipse, I thought that was Miquella's plan to revive the soulless demigods, but it was thwarted because Radahn held the stars in check. Hence, why Malenia went to fight Radahn, and why she was so desperate to kill him that she unleashed the Scarlet Rot to do it.

[@cy9nvs]

Interesting, but I'm not convinced. Considering how quiet it is, it could just be ambience noise they scrambled together with existing sounds they had. We're not spawned in a mausoleum, and the area from the cutscene also doesn't look like one.

[@Demokaze]

I also don't agree with this theory but I think it's worth noting that the four belfries have bells, one of them takes you to the chapel of anticipation where you do spawn and they're guarded by carian troll spirits who are headless just like the mausoleum knights who usually patrol near the wandering mausoleums.

[@DarkMan307]

@@Demokaze thats... a really fucking valid point actually, the chapel is obviously a way the fuck more historicly important location that we initialy realize with it having a transport point from the belfries that also lead to for example, farum azula one of the most important places in the whole lore. also the rare miquella butterflies and a equally rare grafted scion are there

[@naproupi]

The theory is cool, but I don't like theories that take a story about perseverance and how the next future world changing individual can come from anywhere and force it to be some offspring set for greatness by his lineage

[@MalkuthSephira]

huge difference between "offspring set for greatness by lineage" and "tool manipulated by nearly every single faction in the game who is legitimately unable to resolve the situation in any way that wasn't planned for by at least one pre-existing faction or cosmic force"

[@t_race]

Love the content, you bring a unique perspective.

[@PlurpleTeam]

I always thought the bell was just a bell from the church we start in and the stomping was the dude we fight right after we awaken

[@albertbass5459]

My theory for the use of the word illegitimate, in referring to the Japanese translation pertaining to the walking mausoleum isn’t referring to the lineage of birth, but rather Marika’s disowned of any demigod who didn’t make a name for themselves. Becoming illegitimate in the sense that they are not worthy of Marika’s recognition, and therefore become graceless demigods by failing to become a Lord or something of purpose. By using this interpretation of illegitimate. It’s not assuming there is some other being that had born children with Marika, as i would find it strange for them to introduce such an entity when no other evidence exists to our knowledge

[@ZayftheScholar]

I respect your opinion and know what you mean that it would be weird, but the word used in Japanese specifically is used to talk about children born out of wedlock. It's typically used to describe the kids that Samurai/Shogun had with their mistresses. Think bastards in Game of Thrones but not only male.

[@albertbass5459]

@@ZayftheScholar ah yeah i wouldnt know what the use case for that word would have been. Im not a language expert. I see what you mean

[@ZayftheScholar]

no worries at all; I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational. Just wanted to clarify 🙏

[@frozenpants3274]

@@ZayftheScholar Could they be children born of Hoarah Loux before he took on the mantle of Elden Lord and became Godfrey? I assume Marika would not marry him before that as he was too much of a savage and so any children born before would be considered illegitimate?

[@benboucher592]

I would argue that Boggart is our father. After all, he is known to be a bastard and a cheat, and may have gotten up with Marika without knowing it. After all, why else would he be called to the lands between, since he seems to fit no real purpose in the world other than as a sacrifice to the Dung Eater. But we also know him to be a bit of a liar and a nothing-teller, meaning that he would be completely comfortable with telling us he’s never seen Marika, even though she likely secretly seduced him or he seduced her with his prawn skills. After all, how else would he know of Marika’s Tits?

[@ETBrooD]

Some Tarnished were left behind in the Lands Between.

[@snajigaming8736]

What an awesome theory. It even gives more weight on why you would go to the Shadow of the Erdtree to 'follow in Miquella's footsteps'. If the theory's true, then it sounds like the next natural step for the player's tarnished.

[@egg_64.]

great video! keep up the great content :DDD

[@dragonlordplacidusax9413]

This is _the_ best theory for the tarnished. This will be the Story for my dlc Playthroughs!

[@TheUnrelatable]

Sounds more like the music inside of catacombs. The bell tolling, the thumps that reverberate and the overall ominous tone to the whole Catacombs OST.

[@incius8341]

To me the stomping sound resembles the hammering of the Elden Ring seen in the reveal trailer more than anything.

[@JohnDWJ]

Excellent insights and possibilities. And it gives such weight and importance to the wandering mausoleums. The depth of this game never ceases to amaze.