Metal brazing with copper electrical wire as filler

[@RickaramaTrama-lc1ys]

I used to be a weekend welder on classic cars and such and I enjoyed your presentation very much and after all these years I never even thought to try copper wire for small stuff and I was really impressed to see you do it with Mapp Gas! Just goes to show how two heads are better than one. Thanks for the show!

[@churchmouse2540]

I Tried this with stranded copper wire instead of solid and it melted much faster. Strip off the insulation and twist it. The individual stands of the wire heat up faster and melt. Worked well. Great post. Thanks

[@Xynudu]

Good idea. I must give that a try. Thanks for the comment. Cheers Rob

[@Fireship1]

That joint had amazing strength. I'll keep this idea in my bag of tricks for use down the road. Thanks for testing this.

[@Chris-pb3se]

Excellent vid. Great info nugget and well done. Vids like this are why I trudge through the endless parade of useless tool "hack" offerings

[@daki222000]

I always work with some blocks of aerated concrete to keep my heat concetrated. i put the work on a block and put some blocks behind and over it. when working in a vise, i also sometimes work with a wad of ceramic insulation blanket formed behind and little over it. You will get much more heat out of your torches this way. I do not even have mapp, and still am able to do most of the brazing this way. cheers, and thanks for your videos.

[@jossfitzsimons]

Thank you for the education. I've recently invested in Sievert blow torch and burner nozzles so this is very relevant to me. I push items to be brazed into a large tin can packed with rockwool. This supports as well as insulates. I'm planning on getting some 'insulation bricks' as well to make a brazing hearth. I mainly do aluminium welding using 'durafix' rods but hope to do more bronze welding.

[@churchmouse2540]

I thought using a flux coated brazing rod was convenient but I had no idea how MUCH flux was being distributed. what you said has turned out to be completely true. Since the rod material goes where the flux is and flux melts into a puddle, then the rod goes EVERYWHERE. Adding the flux yourself gives you the control of where the rod melts to. Cheers on that point. I have cleaner brazes thanks to this very true advise. This is the real value of people networking their ideas together on KZbin. Great post

[@Xynudu]

Yes, plus adding flux separately enables you to have it in place and doing it's cleaning job while the job is heated to rod melt temperature. Cheers Rob

[@RickRose]

Great experiment--thanks for posting. On the "cheap as it gets" theme, I remember my father using a piece of coathanger wire to braze a repair on one of Mom's kitchen chairs. He was using oxy-acetylene, of course.

[@dougankrum3328]

....Way back in the 1960's...Muffler shops sometimes used coat hangers to Ox-Acet weld the muffler tubing...coat hangers are decent cold-drawn wire.....

[@RickRose]

That would explain where my dad picked it up then. He was a mechanic back in the 60s.

[@WireWeHere]

Built my first cone expansion chamber entirely with coat hanger filler rods and oxy acetylene. When the Sears catalogue serves a useful purpose in your cultural development, instilling care when planning and the value of limitted patience, good for 10 days to 2 weeks without incident but I still have an adrenaline release when someone mentions "backordered". Converting a 1975 RM125 from down/crushed pipe into a one off up pipe of luck and wishful thinking, ran better, living at 3500ft, and didn't leak. I've always enjoyed gas welding, brazing not so much and years of gas welding sure made TIG a natural transition. Thanks for the video. Cheers

[@jaimepegado8737]

cAN YOU BRAZED WITH COAT HANGER? , I THOUGH IT WELDING NOT BRAZING. THANKS

[@usernamemykel]

@@dougankrum3328 They are galvanized steel - except the plastic ones - nobody has figured out what kind of metal is secretly hidden in the plastic ones.

[@colinmartin2921]

Those joints were so strong! Thanks Rob.

[@bengunn3698]

I brazed two pieces of 25x6 mm flat bar together with a large propane burner,each piece was about 150mm long.Did it with comcoat manganese bronze rod.Ibuilt a surround of fire brick around the whole issue to stop heat loss,which i think was your problem ,heat was also conducting through into the vlce.Interesting little video thanks for taking the trouble.

[@gremlinsports]

Great video just thought I would mention we learned in school Acetylene and copper produce highly deadly gas. Yet people still use it for brazing

[@sharxbyte]

I know this comment is ancient, but for the record, you don't want to plumb acetylene lines with copper because the gas formed is highly unstable and we all know acetylene already needs a good therapist. Acetylene flame on copper is fine.

[@jimzivny1554]

Good experiment, I believe the copper likes the more granular structure of cast metals or low quality steel as opposed to HSS or tool steel where the right grain doesn't allow it to grab. Years ago I repaired a truck headlamp bracket using copper(it was done on the road at night, someone hadn't replaced the welding and brazing rod that was usually carried on the service truck) it was meant to be temporary but actually lasted a few months. One thing I will say is electrical wire does come in different grades depending on the use, most is very clean 98% or better pure copper but not all, that could affect the results. Also please be careful grinding or welding around galvanized, it is terribly harmful to you. I want you to be around a long time to make more videos and see what the next tee shirt is!! Be safe

[@cdorcey1735]

@Eddie Hitler I don't recall his name, but a popular KZbin blacksmith/welder lost his life to "metal-fume fever", after putting some galvanized work in a heat-treat furnace. You might be able to get by after exposure, but you never know when it'll catch up with you.

[@-robo-]

Great video, thanks for that! You might look into custom forming an insulator with "water glass" and perlite. The ingredients are very cheap! Also, there are vids on making water glass, and even now to make a furnace/,oven, but I wouldn't go that far. Basically make a brick with a trough for your work pieces to sit in. This gives you heat on three sides and helps keep the part from moving. One other thought: if you are up to it, look into vids on building an induction heater. You could preheat the thicker part to cherry red without using a bunch of gass. Then quickly move the part to your custom insulator brick, fire up the torch and braze away.

[@usernamemykel]

Moral of story: Copper takes a LONG time to melt, because it doesn't melt until it reaches approximately 1984 degrees F. Butane torch puts out 2372 degrees F. Propane torch puts out 3600 degrees F. Map Pro torch puts out 3730 degrees F. Oxy-acet torch puts out 6330 degrees F. Eileen never put out, but she was a cheap date. And, in the first experiment, you tried to eliminate the vise as a heat sink, whereas in the second, you did not. Enjoyed the demonstration, thank you.

[@contessa.adella]

For those who might not know….pre-preparing the bond surface with a thin layer of the melted filler material…is called ‘Tinning’.

[@dianogle5208]

I am an electrician and i would not suggest this for anything but an emergency method. Copper wire is pure copper, almost completely pure. if it gets hot it absorbs oxygen into the molecular structure of the metal. That oxygen will cause corrosion at the molecular boundries and result in a brittle like glass wire. It may hold for now but it may also fall off a month later. Phosphorous is added to copper tubing so it can be brazed without becoming brittle. so maybe you should try strips of copper pipe. But lets face it brazing rod has been tweeked through the years to give optimum performance for a lot of different uses.

[@ronnieg276]

Doesn't the flux keep oxygen from getting into the copper?

[@alancave9168]

You might be right that the copper will cause corrosion but phosphorus is a problem for steel. Silicone Bronze is one of the alloys suitable for brazing steel.

[@This1LifeWeLive]

I'm planning to weld/braze rusty steel pipe to old copper pipe for a ladder (120 lbs or less weight limit . . . it's for kids). I do have a mig welder, and have used it to weld both stainless steel and aluminum, but my understanding is it's not suitable for copper to steel, hence the brazing application? Anyway, I will try your method out of copper wire (just ran eletric into my cabin so plenty leftover), and someone else sugested thin strips of copper pipe. I will try that too. ONLY because the "good" brazing rods on Amazon are sent from China and won't arrive for a MONTH. I will give this a whirl ;D

[@Xynudu]

Interesting. I have only ever used silver solder on copper and never joined it to steel. High silver content rod would do what you want, but it is hellish expensive. If you try and braze copper with copper wire, everything will be melting at once. Same problem with manganese bronze rod as the copper will melt first. I can't see it working. Good luck. Cheers Rob

[@areal5760]

A couple of small, inexpensive fire (hearth) bricks help hold the heat and you can use them as backing, work surface, etc. I use them on my work table to keep from burning anything below.

[@carmelofarrugia5855]

the vice is absorbing all the heat put the work on a fire brick

[@not2fast4u2c]

I use No.12 and 14 copper alot when brazing small metal pieces It is not as strong as bronze rod but Okay on small parts

[@MrErnogoldfinger]

Can you braze pinholes in a bike tank using the same technique? Btw before everyone starts condemning me... the tank has been cleaned out, no fumes and no chance of it exploding.

[@nlo114]

They use copper for vacuum-brazing of heat exchangers in central-heating boilers, so should be good for corrosion-resistance. (Crevice corrosion)

[@FGuilt]

Damn good demonstration and test. Thanks for this video

[@adrianmifsud80]

Try surrounding the part to be brazed with firebrick or something similar. I brazed some heavier parts with a mapp gas torch using lpg and at first I did it like you just in open air and couldn't get the bronze to flow, and then tried it surrounded with firebrick and it works much better. I haven't tried copper with my method but will give it a go.

[@MantisRay861]

Pretty cool experiment, I had some people asking if I could make my brazed copper jewelry look all copper colored. I will have to try using copper as a filler rod.

[@geofflotton5292]

Try the copper phosphate wire. Just don't over heat it. Then after it cools, reheat it a bit. Then if you want to totally hide the joint, dip it in saturated copper sulphate solution.

[@9sec93lx]

Interesting Idea there Robert. While I've never used copper wire for brazing I have made a few emergency type repairs using an old wire coat hangar. Works rather well (using oxy/acetylene) of course. Copper is a real bugger to melt though. As a matter of fact I use a 1/4" thick scrap of Copper plate as a backer when welding up small holes in auto body sheet metal because it doesn't melt and conducts the heat away to minimize warpage of the bodywork. Another thing I do is when welding/brazing small items I "borrow" ahem a few Red Clay bricks from the wifes flower garden to weld on. They seem unfazed by the heat and don't suck away the heat like that large Iron vise of yours does.

[@Xynudu]

Best Racing Tips Win At The Dragstrip All interesting tips. Good to share ideas. I've used plain steel wire as filer with oxy, but I no longer have that luxury and have to get by with LPG. Cheers Rob

[@JDFARM]

All the muffler shops used to use coat hangers to weld on mufflers. I have tried it with no success but I am not a welder.

[@gpweaver]

The US Army BDAR (Battlefield Damage Assessment and Repair) manual calls for cutting the ends off a pair of slave cables, plugging up the ground, and using a coat hanger or whatever you can get hold of as a field expedient SMAW...without the S. We, of course, had to try this for ourselves and it works...kind of.

[@fatsolutions]

Brilliant video, and very informative thank you for sharing

[@tfm1449]

About MAPP...Isn't Mapp...Methyl Accetalene Packed in Plastic? Since accetalene is unstable, the bottles have a sponge type material inside to help stablize the gas?

[@Xynudu]

Hi Tom, It hasn't been MAPP for a considerable time, but people still refer to it as that. I have no idea what is in the bottles. Cheers Rob

[@BackyardArt]

Maybe with a few firebricks round the piece it will do the trick. Must try. I'll also use some peach and mango as flux also, seems a good choice.

[@Xynudu]

Very tasty.

[@BackyardArt]

I will trust your word.

[@PeakyBlinder]

That is very informative, What flux was you using please

[@Xynudu]

Number 303 brazing flux for bronze, brass and copper. It's a Borax based dipping flux.

[@PeakyBlinder]

@@Xynudu thankyou

[@ChrisB257]

Hadn't seen this Rob - very interesting experiment - strength of both joints was impressive. Maybe for ease the bronze does have that slightly more convenient melt point. Am now wondering how the copper would behave with a TIG approach! (Looks like this was tried on TIG Time)

[@Xynudu]

Hi Chris, Works OK, but needs more heat than my torch can put out for anything larger than small. I have seen it used with TIG and it looks to have worked well. I haven't bothered to do any more with copper, as bronze rods are cheap, and I'm generally well stocked up. But it was an interesting experiment. Cheers Rob

[@jmyers9853]

i find that heavier copper wire will weld fine with a tig welder also. i pull strands out of scrap heavy power cables works well

[@garysumlin8355]

The peach and mango flux seems to be working good....lol

[@shelliesman7552]

Copper can really stand up to a lot of Heat. My Uncle was a Rancher his entire Life. When Branding Cattle, and Cutting off any Horns that have started growing on some Bulls... after the Horns have been Cut Off, he used one of several various Diameters of Solid Copper Round Stock, about 3” in Length, that a Steel Pipe Handle was attached to.... and this Solid Copper Cauterizer, was kept in a very Hot Propane Heater Unit that he made, which also held the Branding Irons, and after the Horns were Cut Off, (usually very Small Nubs at that point) then the Cauterizer would be pulled out of the Fire, and used against the Bleeding Area where the Horn was Cut Off, and would them be rotated Clockwise and Counterclockwise, to Cauterize the Horn Area, stopping any further Bleeding, and it would discourage any further Growing of the Horns. Those Solid Copper Slugs mounted on Pipe Handles, would stand up up to many many Years of use, as the Copper doesn’t Oxidize readily. I rebuilt several of his “Cauterizers” by using Copper Wire as Filler Rod, and using my TIG Welder, (Tungsten Inert Gas) I Built Up the Copper Slugs Again, wherever necessary, which was quite a bit, all over. Prior to doing that, I cleaned up those Oxidized Copper Slugs with my Disc Grinder. Using this Process was actually “Welding.” Back when I was in my Infancy of becoming a Machinist, I was Working at a Shop where we used Carbide Inserts Regularly. I wanted to make up several Lathe Tools using the Old Solid Carbide Inserts, which were quite Large. I didn’t use Inserts with Holes in them however. I created a bunch of Brazing Rod Filings, and I mixed them with Flux, and placed the Inserts on Top of that Mixture, and Clamped it with a Small C-Clamp, and I used a Oxy/Acetylene Torch to Braze it onto the Steel Shank. I did add more Brazing Rod from the Underside. That Method I used Worked very Good. I made three of those Tools each, for my Friend and I, and used them at my Future Job, a number of times over the Years. I had Machined the Tool Shank with Seat that made the Insert Mounted at a Positive Rake. I also scuffed up the Bottom Side of the Insert with a Grinder, for an even better Mechanical Bond of the Brazed Joint. If one had a High Temperature Paste Flux, you could Mix Brazing Rod Filings In with the Paste Flux, at an even Higher Concentration of Filings, and a much more Uniform coverage of Filings. PS. Respectfully, What you were doing, and were attempting to do with the Carbide Insert, using Copper Wire to Join the Steel Rods, and the Tool Shank... is Called “Brazing”, not Welding. It is when you are Melting the Base Material, along with the Appropriate Filler Rod, that you would be Correct in Calling the Process “Welding”. Cheers!

[@jph9667]

I wonder if you can use brass rod or wire to braze?

[@pingpingandcho]

I love that bullfinch rob, gotta get me one of those.

[@Odo-so8pj]

I have an unused one at home 😂 4 years ago though

[@LuxorVan]

How is a Schwinn bicycle different that other bicycles? They way the frame is assembled!

[@ARCSTREAMS]

hmmm im surprised you got such a quality finish and good joint with the cooper wire using only maap/air,,usually i use maap/oxy or propane/oxy and i still have a hard time getting it done or coming out well unless i take a hard cleaning to it,,maybe its also my flux could be bad but it heats up so much the flux dont help and burns and cruds ,,what kind of flux are you using there? can a simple borax and water solution do? i tired that and even a store bought solid block flux and was still having problem because it parts glowed red hot and the cooper was still not melting fast enough ,maybe my copper wick was too thick and i need to use smaller strands because i am using a home made mini jeweler type torch,,you can see my vid of it on my ch

[@Xynudu]

The flux used is sold as EziWeld 303. It's a borax based dipping flux (not wet flux) formulated for bronze brazing. As with ALL brazing, the correct flux makes a huge difference.

[@ARCSTREAMS]

@@Xynudu seems to be working very well with the Cu too,,yes i def think the right flux makes a difference,,wonder if i can find this stuff in a home depot or weld shop in canada,,but again im surprised how well you were able to braze using only mappro and air which is typically used for soldering only

[@andrewbradford8474]

My home testing showed copper wire to be a poor substitute for commercial brazing rods. Even with flux, the copper joints would fail with a swift blow from a hammer - versus an almost indestructible brazing rod joint. The copper joint is filled with micro bubbles when exposed , compared to the solid structure of a commercial brazing rod joint. Copper should never be used for anything other than yard art.

[@migmagingenieria]

Maybe you forgot to use Vegemite as flux!?

[@one4stevo]

not bad just as strong and cost ya a lot less then the normal rods. wonder if you could tig with copper wire... going try it one day. thanks for sharing Rob

[@davidschwartz5127]

Try it sitting on an old fire brick, the vice is still sucking a lot of heat away, also alloyed metals always melt at a lower temp the pure base metal.

[@indianatone218]

Interesting ! Maybe if you put a heat brick underneath it may retain a bit more heat around the metal .i want to try and repair a motorbike tank that's got metalworm so I might try with log and copper wire n flux ,thanks for doing vid .Ant from Wales UK

[@geofflotton5292]

I have used copper for straight steel fusion welding. I wonder how it affects the strength of the weld.

[@Xynudu]

I found it to be damn tough. Rob

[@ARCSTREAMS]

would you say copper ,bronze or brass are stronger than a silver braze?,,very interesting to see with the copper wire,maybe i should be using some copper braided wick i have instead of the silver ,might be a better and easier braze than the bloody silver that keeps popping in my face,or could be my poor flux

[@Xynudu]

Silver braze is basically silver solder and no where near as strong as bronze, copper or brass.

[@ARCSTREAMS]

ok thats what i figured ,,idk why they call it solder since you can do both depending on the composition of the rods or wires ,you can solder if it has less silver and braze when it has more,at least thats what i think but it might be the other alloys as well

[@TheMadManPlace]

Isn't the formulation of the normal brazing rod designed to get the alloy melting at a lower heat and flowing better ?? That is why some work and others are a waste of money.

[@Xynudu]

Yes, it melts at a lower temperature than copper, even though that is the major component. Rob

[@kwcatford6709]

The Mad Man h.

[@gamesbok]

xymudu, There are sometimes Eutectic effects, where an alloy has a lower melting point than either of the constituent metals.

[@morriegrieve1890]

The Mad Man ,,

[@diverbob8]

A bit of O2 would make this an easier process and restoring the temper would make the steel a lot stronger...

[@charleskennerly2086]

What kind of flux did you use? would borax work? Is the torch you are using a typical small propane torch, or is it a bigger torch?

[@Xynudu]

I used a borax based flux made for bronze brazing - EZIWELD 303. The torch is a Bullfinch bronze brazing torch specially made to use LPG or propane. You cannot bronze braze with a standard LPG torch.

[@skymit5519]

Hi Robert. I did a sheet metal shaping course recently with an old codger who had been doing it for 50 years. He showed us how to do brazing with copper rod on sheet metal ( using oxy acetylene). He told us the good thing about copper is you dont need to use flux! Thought you might like that bit of info. He occasionally uses it to fill rust holes on car bodys he said and he did a real nice copper braze on some sheet metal to demonstrate to us. Thanks for the great videos

[@tfm1449]

I used to use a common metal clothes hanger to "braze" metal together. With oxy/acc. Surprisingly it worked pretty damn good. I never used copper wire. I'll have to try that. Btw, I have used a wire hanger to braze cast iron also. It took some hit and miss tries, but it seemed to work ok. You need to get a lot of material on and in the cast iron, globbs. Then let it sit till thru cold. With a file and whatever it took to shape to fit.

[@Xynudu]

Hi Tom, You can weld nodular cast iron (as used in vices) with standard GP stick electrodes provided you peen it. However that won't work on basic grey cast iron. I asume you can do the same with coat hangers. Never tried it. Cheers Rob

[@CorbinAce]

A professional welder will tell you coat hangers are the crap end of steel smelting. It will weld but it is the junk worse material for that purpose. I have used it in a pinch but just saying, it is not the best. Don't weld an aircraft with it. LOL

[@jdog4534]

What about electrolysis? Won't that be a long term problem of brazing steel with copper?

[@Xynudu]

GP bronze brazing rods are about 80% copper. Copper and brass react with aluminium, but not to any significant degree with ferrous metals as I understand it.

[@jdog4534]

xynudu bronze and brass and other copper alloys aren't dissimilar to ferrous metals and they're used between copper and steel when transitioning between the two. There is a third ingredient needed for electrolysis to occur, that's water. It's a natural fact that copper and steel are so dissimilar that, in the right environment, their union creates electrolysis. That's why things like the dielectric union were invented.

[@jeffanderson1653]

What is Vegimite? I remember the group, Men at Work, sang that song about a Vegimite sandwich I never considered using copper wire. I know bronze rod is 80+ % copper

[@DystopianEmpire01]

That was interesting, I completely expected the copper to melt easier but when I think about it I should have known better. : )

[@thebeststooge]

Prominent product placement of the Vegemite there mate, lol.

[@contessa.adella]

Tip:….buy a fire brick. It’s way less of a heat sink. Only 10 bucks Aus (cos I spotted your Vegemite jar 😂). Improved tip: get two bricks…cut one in half. Braze the work on the one whole brick and arrange the two halves around the joint to increase flame heat retention.👍

[@trapper23ful]

Do you think a mixer gun i e Propane or Mapp with a compressed air flow like a furnace blower but refined might work for thicker gauge stock?........ Genuine ask just trying to learn as I go here

[@Xynudu]

***** I have played around quite a bit with air fed propane/LPG to see if it significantly boosts flame temperature. The problem is that air is mostly nitrogen, so it has only a small additional oxidiization effect. LPG torches are generally jetted to maximum ideal mix ratio out of the box. When you add more air (compressed) it does bump up the temperature slightly, but flame pattern is destroyed/no longer concentrated, and it's also damn noisy. A mixer gun with pure oxygen would of course make a huge difference. Rob

[@ARCSTREAMS]

i think Cu def makes a stronger joint than silver or brass etc but much harder to work with

[@Xynudu]

Bronze is mostly copper. Silver and brass are piss poor strength wise in comparison. In Oz we call silver solder "yellow tip" as all rods are colour coded. It's very expensive in comparison to bronze rod. I use manganese bronze brazing rods (most of the time) with my Bullfinch LPG torch - it's excellent for small/low heat loss jobs and super cheap to run. Oxy/LPG is the next step up, and it would handle plain copper wire easily, BUT you have to wear a shade/filter which cuts down visibility, and you will use four oxy to every one LPG cylinder - gets expensive and hard to justify unless you are brazing large items. As manganese bronze rods are relatively cheap, there's little point in using copper wire. Cheers Rob

[@ARCSTREAMS]

@@Xynudu well i been using a 60cuf OXY cyl in combination with any store bought propane or mapro cyl and it lasts a long time specially because i use a mini torch i made for light duty jobs but i am having problems getting a good and easy Cu joint braze ,,the steel gets so hot before the Cu melts that its on the edge of oxidizing and gets porosity so its not coming out as nice or easy as i hoped,,maybe i need to adjust the amount of Cu or flux i am using might be the wrong type,,you can have a look at the torch i made on my ch vid

[@ARCSTREAMS]

@@Xynudu and have you ever tried silicone bronze? they call it silly bronze up here lol

[@Patroand]

Interesting test. We can see that the electrical copper isn't made for that purpose. And, to braze an insert to the holder, silver filler is mostly mandatory. I believe that they use induction soldering machine to do that. It's funny that tested that because I was going to do the same with the tig machine. If it works I will let you know. Thanks. P.s. It's always funny to wake and see those fresh made video at three in the morning.

[@Xynudu]

Robert Patoine Hi Robert. I use GP manganese rod to braze on carbide tips, and it works well - no problem. Sorry to wake you up :) Cheers Rob

[@billyproctor9714]

Who is your supplier for the peach and mango flux your using, thanks for the video. Cheers, Bill in Canada

[@Xynudu]

Ha Ha. I get it from BOC Gases in South Australia, but it's readily available from the internet. Just look for EziWeld 303 on Ebay.. Cheers Rob

[@geofflotton5292]

Rather interesting experiment. Of course you can buy copper phosphate brazing rods but you have to pay for those. Very popular in the USA for copper pipes. Cheaper than silver brazing. Not allowed for some things here though such as gas. On a side note. MAP gas is really only a modified propane. The real MAPP gas in the white cylinders has long gone. The heat comes from the burner design. The high turbulence breaks down the barrier layer. The actual temperature is only slightly higher than normal propane.

[@805ROADKING]

Brilliant Mate!!☺

[@zeemanjr]

When I used to Braze sulky undercarriages we used oxygen/acetylene but to save money the boss insisted on using LPG/oxygen and it worked just as good but it took a little longer to heat up. oh we also had a vapour flux tank instead of using coated flux bronze brazing rods. Pete.

[@Xynudu]

zeemanjr In Australia CIG sold an oxy/LPG system called a "Colt". I had considered getting one, the only downside is that I've been told it doesn't weld some ferrous metals very well. Rob

[@ARCSTREAMS]

did you say those were 4.8mm OD or ID? because i have the same stock i been practicing on at home and they are 1/4" OD steel tubing,,hard to find ,but i managed to silver braze two ends together using a homemade mini torch that runs on oxy/propane or mappro and just basic boric acid and water solution for flux,,it is problematic but it eventually worked,i also brazed two 1/16" steel wires together,i think using mappro is too hot and found propane more suitable but the brazing wire i was using is difficult to work with,i believe it is silver but not sure of the composition,,you can go to my acc and check out the vid i recently uploaded showing the mini torch i made,,but what gases are you using in that torch?

[@Xynudu]

The rods are manganese bronze and the torch uses LPG.

[@ARCSTREAMS]

i thought manganese required a higher melting temp? because you said it was easier to melt the bronze manganese than the copper ,,what kind of LPG? map/pro,propane??

[@Xynudu]

Manganese is added to copper plus other elements to make bronze brazing rods melt at a lower temper and flow more easily. LPG and propane are basically the same thing.

[@ARCSTREAMS]

yes but i thought manganese had a high melting temp (1246 °C), i guess than is lower than steel and easier to melt? ahh ok i thought LPG could mean a variety of gases

[@dalemcinnes1834]

@@ARCSTREAMS LPG stands for liquid propane gas.

[@mimlomiani6949]

I have had the same Trouble as you, but then I found out insted of holding your piece in there just put it on one of those noon burnable stof, ( sry I can not remember the name of the material) that you can buy on the internet. The special Cloth keeps all the hit and concentrate it on the piece which you want to weld. Not that it makes it much much easier, but it does help a lot. Try it. Sorry again, I can not remember the name of special Cloth that never burnes. I am shore that you know what I mean .... Love your video's by the way. Keep them coming ;) GOOD LUCK...

[@Xynudu]

I will check it out. Thanks for the tip. Cheers Rob

[@HomeDistiller]

I think your gal rod may have given you a false positive joint... What you made was a brass joint not straight copper.. That might be why it didn't melt when trying to make the lathe tool.. Maybe try adding zinc filings to the flux?

[@ser7ser7i]

Thank you, peace and love.

[@andezbox]

Does it matter which flux you use with copper wire / rod ?

[@Xynudu]

Yes, it must be suitable for bronze brazing. Bronze is 90% copper. Cheers Rob

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

G'day mate. I managed to watch the videos in reverse order and they were both very interesting. I like the way you welded the rods together, very good bond. That "shifter" wrench appeared to have smooth jaws and if so then that is what folks here used to call a "monkey wrench". It may still be called that but you never see them anyplace so who can say. Just another example of the language shifting due to distance. Anyway I enjoyed the video. Thanks for sharing.

[@SeekTruthinLight]

That's a pretty robust brazing torch set up with a lot of pressure.. and man it gets that hot even to melt copper wire and it didn't melt the work piece which is something to watch for- getting too hot.

[@billconnelly4840]

What is the flux are you using.

[@Xynudu]

Borax based bronze brazing flux - code CA-303. Does copper and brass as well.

[@billconnelly4840]

@@Xynudu THANKS .

[@Craftcreations.]

In my job the burners use oxy with propane to cut RSJ,s.

[@geofflotton5292]

For cutting, works better than oxygen and acetylene.

[@Fed2thewolves]

The copper is oxidizing before the temp has a chance to heat it enough, causing the oxidation to insulate your work surface. The rest of the heat is escaping through your vice. You need a 100% helium environment to prevent the oxidation for copper to weld properly to tungsten carbide. Without it, you're fighting a losing battle. I find the best method is to use a tig welder at 200 amp, running helium at 100%. I promise, it will take no longer than 2 seconds using this method.

[@gregbrodie-tyrrell3473]

Rob, when you mix two metals together, if the ratio of materials is correct the mixture of metals will melt at a point *lower* than the melting point of either of the two metals. This is called the "eutectic point", and without going into the physics or metallurgy of it (because I am neither smart enough nor learned enough), this mixing of metals is what gives us the various solders we use. The stuff most people refer to as "solder" is the lead/tin mixture, usually 60/40 (and don't ask me which way round!) that has been used for generations in electronics. However, silver solder is a similar amalgam of metals which melts at a higher temperature than lead/tin, has a higher strength and slightly different properties. So too is phospor bronze or manganese bronze, which are amalgams of bronze, which is itself a mixture (usually) of copper and tin, although copper and arsenic was sometimes used. This table uniweld.com/en/resources/product-info/alloys shows the melting points of various metals. Note that copper melts at over 1080 degrees C, while brass and bronze melt at a point some 200 degrees C lower. This is why you had such trouble melting copper, and it is also why we use brass alloys as solder rather than pure copper. I imagine that if you were faced with an emergency and a lack of supplies, using copper instead of the brass/bronze solders will get the job done, but there are good reasons why we use the alloys. Not criticising, just sayin'...

[@Xynudu]

Greg Brodie-Tyrrell Hi Greg. Thanks for posting the comments. Most interesting. It explains a lot, and the difference in temperatures is quite apparent. The eutectic point is something I haven't considered before, and I'm glad you raised it. Using oxy you have plenty of heat to handle anything, but certainly with a lesser system copper takes a bit to melt. I won't be using it to replace my GP bronze rods any time soon, but it was an interesting experiment to see what is possible. I was quite surprised at how strong the bond was, given copper's malleability. Cheers Rob

[@pierresgarage2687]

Greg Brodie-Tyrrell That's the best explication so far, and, also some metals flow much easier than others...

[@maddogk196780]

Great Video..... Just got a question for ya..... Can you use Borax as a flux? I use it in forging to weld so I figure you could use it here.... Anyway thanks for the great info

[@Xynudu]

+maddogk196780 Yes. Borax paste is widely used when setting up the job and melting the bronze in an oven/furnace situation. I have never used it as a general flux when rod welding as shown, but it should work quite OK. The flux in the video is general purpose stuff used for steel and probably has a high Borax content. Cheers Rob.

[@shamimahmed7431]

xynudu i

[@fortj3]

Strine?

[@terry4144]

how are you holding that wire in your fingers? it must be red hot

[@Xynudu]

+terry4144 No problem - bare fingers. The heat transfer didn't cause an issue with that length of wire. No worse than bronze rod, which is also mostly copper. If it was causing grief I would have put on some leather gloves. Rob

[@jenniferscott2579]

What do you use as a flux with the copper filler?

[@Xynudu]

Eziweld 303 borax based bronze brazing flux. Bronze is mostly copper.

[@jaimepegado8737]

WHAT DO YOU USE FOR PASTE ? PLEASE

[@Xynudu]

It's not a wet paste. It's a hot rod dipping flux. It's specifically made for bronze brazing. It's Borax based. It is Eziweld 303, only available in Australia, but your local welding supply company should be able to source or have a similar product. Cheers Rob

[@jaimepegado8737]

@@XynuduThanks bud

[@flightgamer7849]

Love interesting videos like this.

[@Xynudu]

Glad you like them!

[@superrodder2002]

if you used a insulating blanket behind and around the end if the tool shank you could store more btu's in the part and get the temp hotter,and the copper would melt. the way you showed in the video your loosing lots of heat into the surrounding air.

[@Xynudu]

superrodder2002 I use a brick hearth at times for larger items, but in this test I deliberately just used the torch as I would normally when brazing with GP bronze - to get an accurate comparison. I regularly bronze carbide inserts with GP filler rod without any problem, using an open flame as shown in the video. Cheers Rob

[@f.demascio1857]

impressive.

[@stonearches2883]

Very informative video. Thank you. Love the jar of Vegemite on the workbench!

[@patmiddleton3947]

You can’t work properly without vegemite.

[@denverheid4604]

Any good KZbinr knows the value of a nugget like that!

[@johnsweeney6072]

Nice to see that Australian icon in shot 🇦🇺👍

[@stephenrolheiser6261]

Good video. Thanks

[@bobbielski9591]

That weld is strong !

[@luciusirving5926]

Strength of the braze and the individual brazing is more important.

[@LarsBerntzon]

You should put your pieces to be braced on isolating surface with walls arpund, like a porous stone or something. You are wasting quite a lot of heat the way you do it in the video.

[@jacker372]

Try using some plumbers flux, the kind you brush on.

[@swarfrat311]

Rob, So instead of getting bronze brazing rod, all I have to do is rip out all the electrical wiring out of my shop! Thanks for sharing an interesting experiment. Instead of taking your wife out to dinner, perhaps you should get an oxy/acetylene setup with the money you saved on your professional air die grinders! Have a good one! Dave

[@yaboi6488]

The wrench I have one just like. I used. On my milking machine

[@usernamemykel]

I have the same mfr. & model also. M'lady won't let me get near her milking machine with it.

[@DeliciousDeBlair]

I did not see a lot of repeat fluxing...?

[@Xynudu]

That's correct. You only flux once over the edges to be joined, give it time to work (it's a cleaning agent) , and then apply the bronze rod in sufficient quantity to do the job . Pre-fluxed rods are bad news as you are fluxing and adding bronze at the same time. This won't give the flux time to do it's job properly, and you can't control the amount of bronze being added relative to the flux. Cheers Rob

[@DeliciousDeBlair]

I was just thinking about how many times I had MAPP gas torch oxidize my job due to insufficient fluxing. I suppose we all have different results, but I never once experienced anything one could call 'over fluxing.' Maybe I was lucky or maybe my perception of how much is a lot is affected by the difference of a camera and being at the job site in person.

[@Xynudu]

I've never had oxidization problems as the flux has done it's job before you add the bronze. Plus the flux tends to act as a binder and hold everything in place (it's tacky when molten). Do what ever floats your boat, but I think you've got greater control of flux and rod by doing them separately. Cheers Rob

[@SisterBaby]

Bear with me; I'm new to soldering and other methods of joining metals. Here's my question: I'm using a small butane torch that supposedly heats to 2500º, which should be high enough to make the copper wire flow, right? Why isn't it working for me?

[@Xynudu]

It probably doesn't have enough Bthu (heat energy) even though it's high temperature. It's like trying to boil water with a match, sure it's as hot as any wood flame, but there's not enough of it. Copper also drags in an enormous amount of heat. I struggled with my MAPP gas equivalent torch on this. Cheers Rob

[@SisterBaby]

Thanks for your fast reply! So, if someone like me, who is only occasionally doing work on thin materials (as in making a bezel or a ring), wants to use this technique on copper, what's the smallest/least complicated/lightest torch that would do the job sufficiently?

[@SisterBaby]

By the way, I'm not asking you to recommend one (unless you want to!); even a type and necessary specs will suffice. Thanks!

[@Xynudu]

Hi Cannie, You would need MAPP type gas, same as plumbers use, or a small oxy/butane kit . The small oxy/butane kit would deliver on temperature and have a much smaller burner flame for pin point welding. None of these are pocket size. If you are looking to join copper to copper this won't work, as it will melt both pieces. You need to work with a lower melting point medium such as silver solder or silicon bronze, same as plumbers use to join copper pipes. The only downside is that there will be a colour variation with the join/base materials. Your existing torch would probably be able to do that. Cheers Rob

[@thommytwotoestimesthree847]

A small oxy-acetelyne set-up can be purchased through many retailers for less than 65 or 70$ U.S. the draw back is the small size oxygen tanks. Replacements were once 8.00$ .. Now they're more pricey. Comes with torch, hose, red tank, yellow( 2lb.) tank. Warning: tanks are small and as a beginner experimenting they will empty rather quickly. 15 min operating time, perhaps.?

[@d.c7464]

copper is fine it is just 30% of the strength or less of bronze.

[@Puggy1234ful]

believe you said the steel was galvanized . The fumes are deadly ask any welder

[@gpweaver]

Not deadly, but they'll give you a helluva headache and the shakes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever

[@robertdinicola9225]

How about induction. The base metal should melt your filler, not the torch

[@Xynudu]

That's what's happening.

[@lukewarmwater6412]

do this on a fire brick and it will work better, acetalyne would probably be best but if you don't have it.... one summer when I was 17 and didn't know you aren't really supposed to be able to cut stainless steel with a torch. my grandfather sent me on a mission. cut up an old milk tank with a propane/oxy cutting torch. oh it worked. if you count melting a bit and blowing it out of the way then melting a bit more. took forever and a ton of propane but it worked. if its all you have to work with and you ignore what you are not supposed to be able to do and drive on till it works. well then you have come upon my fave sayin'.... its not a stupid idea if it works.

[@ww321]

Thanks for the video. I got a Henrob 2000 torch and used it to braze 2 pieces of hrs angle with copper wire. No flux either. It flowed great in the joint. Crazy

[@Xynudu]

Ahh the mysterious Henrob. An intriguing torch that I've never tried. You hear varying reports about it. Interesting feedback. Thanks. Cheers Rob

[@eviltwinx]

Very interesting and cool!

[@abcxyz8136]

Electrical copper wire thats almost pure copper with melting point of 1085 centigrade. Additives to a pure substance tend to depress the melting point. A good example is adding rock salt to ice.

[@mrgreenswelding2853]

you could use a tig welder to heat but not melt it. if you have a tig welder!!!

[@Xynudu]

+Mr. green I would love to have a TIG. My workshop is pretty basic compared to many. One day in the future I may get one :) Cheers Rob

[@mrgreenswelding2853]

+xynudu , i bought a cheap tig off ebay. does what i want.

[@darcymunro8930]

That’s a great test

[@duncanjames914]

Did you say you were using a map-gas set-up similar to this: www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Hand-Torches/Manual-Ignition/WK5500OX Thank-you!

[@Xynudu]

No. I am using a specialised LPG/butane brazing torch made by Bullfinch of the UK.

[@duncanjames914]

@@Xynudu It sounds like they are both designed to do the same thing. Thanks for the video.