Miami Dice, Episode 144 - Dead of Winter

[@SoCalRMD]

The thing I really like about this game is that even when it's not your turn, you can't just check out and look at your phone, because something the guy next to you does on his turn can greatly affects what you are trying to do or what the group is doing as a whole. It really is a great game.

[@bdavid108]

Thanks guys. I was 99% sure to buy this game, all I needed is the Dice Tower Seal of Approval. And I agree with you; I think the point of most zomibe/post-apocaliptic stories should be how people treat and interact with each other. Who turns into a monster and who turns into a guy who willing to sacrifice all for others. Yeah, this could've been be The Walking Dead game but I'm also happy for the independent universe/storyline.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I recently saw this game being played on Tabletop, & I have to say.....BEST. EPISODE. EVER. Certainly the most tense & suspenseful episode I've seen. Really highlights what an intense gaming experience Dead of Winter is. This game has certainly risen to the top of my "Must Have" lists-thanks to Tabletop & this overview/rating :-).

[@ryanpeddle2255]

Medicine, Tom, Medicine. Not drugs. ''Don't know what kind of school this is.'' Cracked me up.

[@edheldude]

What's the difference? Many can be used both medicinally and recreationally.

[@stormy7722]

If I really really needed "medicine" I would go to a N American school before a pharmacy.

[@andzzcage4253]

My first board game ever. 2 Years passed and still me and my palls are having a blast every time we play it !

[@Froz3n93]

Super fun game

[@mythology0007]

I really dig your show guys. Every time i'm on the market for a new game, I go to your channel first.

[@TheFilbert13]

So glad to see this game getting love! I was lucky enough to become friends with Jon and help playtest. It has been cool to know a was a very small part in this board game, and awesome to see how much success the game is getting for Jon and Isaac.

[@Informal_Geek]

When I introduced this game to my group, we agreed afterwards that this game isn't about zombies, it's about the zombie threat that draws out the human effect, much like the show the Walking Dead does. Each player has a motive and the conflict between these agenda's can bring out the bad from within the good, or at the least, suspicion. Once you suspect someone is going specifically toward their Secret objective, you don't think "Oh, betrayer!", but rather you think "You're not a bad guy, but you're focusing a lot on the colony instead of the crisis (or vice-versa)...should I exile you? Crap, what if you're not a betrayer? Darn, you're currently the first player, maybe I should wait a turn?". Great game and I like that the game puts you in a controlled chaos situation from the start and layers on tension!

[@DennisCeteris]

Hi Tom and Sam, just a suggestion, and you've probably heard this more than a few times now: Can you guys indicate if the game is good at 2, 3, 4, or 5 players? That'll help a lot, especially for people who don't have a complete playgroup on a daily basis.

[@janpawedwa4590]

Great suggestion man! But on the other hand, you can look it up on BGG, players there vote with how many game is really playable and with how many it "shines" When it comes to DoW the more the better. But designer posted great 2 player variant also.

[@Straddllw]

I'd recommend 4 players. 3-5 is fine too.

[@chrisdonovan8795]

The game does a great job of fitting the theme except for one thing. A player can request a card from another player regardless of their location. It's the only rule that breaks the gritty theme. It's not a deal breaker, but it is somewhat puzzling why they chose to do it that way.

[@JonGilmour]

We chose do it it that way, because of wanting to reduce book keeping. Also to lower the difficulty a bit. We had over 100 groups playtesting it over the course of several months, and it was a rule we got a lot of feedback on. Each round is about a week of game time, so plenty of time for survivors to meet up and hand off things.

[@chrisdonovan8795]

Jon Gilmour Thanks for the reply. It's good to see companies interacting with consumers at various levels too.

[@Haladras]

. . . and the fact that you can't kill another survivor with that sniper rifle you just gave to one of your followers. No sir, that's mah zombie huntin' rifle and I shall not ABIDE that it be used on another living soul. That's what this unwieldy club is for. Oh, my assassination of a fellow colonist failed? I wonder why. But yes, the game is thematic . . . except when it isn't, which is a far more frequent occurrence than anyone's willing to admit. Not a bad game, mind you. Just a frustrating game from a set of designers I like a lot. I prefer their Bioshock Infinite and Mice and Mystics titles above and beyond Dead of Winter.

[@flipperjones509]

I just ordered this game. You're video really helped me decide to give it a try. Thanks!

[@samiloucif7923]

I was hesitant about this one but you really convinced me ^^

[@winterplum]

I don't know how many players you played with, but I think the 2-player game is a different animal here, mainly because you don't use the Secret Objective cards in 2-player. The crisis cards may or may not be interesting, but we found in 2-player that the decisions were not entirely difficult since we always had the same goals. Ethical points did not matter since, after all, we were playing a game. To make the crossroads cards have more impact the players should treat the decisions as if role-playing and not as if playing just a game. The game may be super with the right group, but with 2...just ok...which admittedly is not usual fare for Plaid Hat...their games are absolute top notch.

[@matthewtobin01]

Thanks. Great review, and I feel your reviews of other games are helpful and informative, too. Keep up the good work.

[@fustercluck666]

Thanks for the review, guys! We played it today for the first time. I love the game! Very intense. And not because of the zombies. It's the other people, the suspicion, and also nasty crossroads cards!

[@patcraig3631]

One mechanic that I think is over looked is that the cards say where you found them. This makes it easy to get caught if you aren't careful... or easy to farm someone else if you are clever.

[@Stephen-Fox]

I'd say it's a propper zombie game - one that actually feels like the better type of zombie film, where the zombies are the appocolyptic backdrop that informs the setting for a man vs man conflict, rather than being the targets in man vs nature conflict, which most zombie games seem to fall into.

[@CaptLoquaLacon]

Yeah, I'm with you on that assessment - I find zombies a little dull generally, but one of my favourite books is World War Z (don't mention the film...) since the book essentially looks at the human behaviour that the zombie outbreak causes. I've pre-ordered the game in the hope that it lives up to the reviews I've seen that talk about it as a human experience rather than the typical brains and boomsticks zombie game (though they can be a fun way to spend some time...)

[@xarmanhskafragos2516]

If u Like this concept go watch train to busan (or for busan or something)

[@lylejackson645]

I can't wait to buy this game. I love that some of the crossroad cards I have seen have a fairly obvious choice, but others have two very viable options creating a really tough decision. I feel like those tough decisions really capture the essence of theme.

[@Krimson62]

I don't normally complain about minor things, but the opening theme is far to sunny and cheery for this kind of review lol. Just got my copy :) looking forward to playing it soon!!

[@mikehuff2693]

Does anyone know the name of the book?

[@JoaBelgium]

Wow. I was moderately interested in buying this game, but I'm definitely getting it now. It looks and sounds really awesome!

[@-LiQuidGaS-]

Anyone know what book this game is based on? The one they mentioned in this video? I've been looking everywhere for it online but have yet to find an answer :/

[@petejones284]

+-GoRdoN- I suspect it is "The Road" a very depressing novel and badly written gramatically (No speech marks when someone is speaking so it's difficult to know what is direct speech and what is story)

[@FunnyVideos33333]

Respectfully disagree that Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" is badly written, stylistically confusing or not. Anyone who enjoys existentialist horror, or even a study of man's psyche, would love that wonderful novel.

[@ClericID]

Will this go on your shelf Tom?

[@Ragnarokender]

Looks quite good, A cross between Battlestar Galactica and Robinson Crusoe.

[@jeannineg1350]

00:20:40 I find it so interesting, how Tom and Melody have some of the same mannerisms.

[@NicholasLA1]

Absolutely cannot wait for this to get here! That boat needs to move faster!

[@ikesteroma]

This review makes me think that I need to take Shadows Over Camelot off of my BGG wishlist and put this one on instead.

[@chuckm1961]

I have both games. They scratch different itches. Shadows is less social, more about planning and strategizing as a group (at least as my group plays it). DOW is more about balancing your personal goals against group goals, interacting with others around the table.

[@ikesteroma]

chuckm1961 Thanks.

[@Mackerachi]

I think SOC has a much different feel to it. I disagree a little with the last comment, with my group SOC is as much or more social then DOW was, so I think that may vary by group. I found myself acting alone in DOW more often. But I agree completely with the comment that they both scratch different itches. And they're both awesome. :D

[@daktanis]

SOC has been replaced by so many other games for me.

[@jamielishbrook2384]

Ike Evans this game is good dude. But i haven't played shadows over camelot yet so i cant compare the 2

[@DuraheLL]

have they made that "next game" that was gonna be a space game yet?

[@antoyal]

Those crossroads cards sound a bit like the "dark" cards from Android: neat story, played out of turn by other players, and triggered by general or potentially very specific conditions. Android is by no means a semi-cooperative game, however. :D Dead of Winter looks really neat.

[@esasalminen3184]

What is the book that inspired Dead of Winter?

[@azraelswrd]

The game itself feels more like the movie "The Colony" (starring Bill Paxton and Laurence Fishburne) and instead of zombies, they used cannibals. Not sure about the book, though I've heard people say this reminded them of "The Road". I can see that applied to almost all post-apocalyptic survival themes where survivors are the greatest threat and hope to live.

[@BorgLeo]

azraelswrd I would also like to know which book, would like to read.

[@JonGilmour]

Leo Borg I drew influence from a bunch of different books, but a few reading suggestions are: The Road, World War Z, and The Walking Dead comics. Movies to watch: Pontypool, Undead, Night of the Living Dead. Dawn of the Dead.

[@JonGilmour]

I drew influence from a bunch of different books, but a few reading suggestions are: The Road, World War Z, and The Walking Dead comics. Movies to watch: Pontypool, Undead, Night of the Living Dead. Dawn of the Dead.

[@bjosarn]

As a comic fan, ill throw 30 Days of Night (the comic ofc) into the mix.

[@Nubil8r]

I've been pretty satisfied by Plaid Hat games. I'll buy DOW in hopes they'll make an expansion or re-release of a passion project of theirs, City Of Remnants. That'd pretty sweet if they did

[@themetalhead92g]

anyone knows the name of the song at intro?

[@eliashartmark1522]

If i should buy a zombie game wich one should i buy?

[@smoothcriminal28]

Been waiting for this one... Thanks fellas.

[@MrReelio3]

This game is amazing! So glad I pre-ordered it.

[@pixi2k901]

The game seems very hard to find at the moment :/. Only managed to find super expensive copies of this :(

[@Jindorek]

I LOVED the look of this game up to the point where i realised its just zombies again. would have preferred a "this war of mine" style.

[@LastSider]

Oh shit! Vasel and Healey goes down on the game... I mean you know. Anyhow, got the chance to play and oh my god... you will know your friends and how devious they can be.

[@13shivan]

any opinions between this and carnival zombies?

[@FSCB2013]

I played my first game of Dead of Winter last night, after having owned BSG for a few years now. I have always wanted to give DoW a go to see how similar it is to BSG. Definitely many of the ideas of BSG are present in different forms in DoW, but I just found DoW was not as engaging. The thematic arrangement is great, especially the Cross Roads cards. But in DoW I found that players were generally trying to achieve their own secret mission while obviously contributing to the main goal, which for most of the game meant people were playing against the board with a few interactions here are there when needed ie medicine to heal someone, fuel to get someone to move without exposure etc. In my case and that of a fellow victor, we had "easy" secret missions. Collector "3 fuel" and "only have medicine in your hand". Once I achieved the secret mission, it just became a game against the board. There wasn't the same urgency that BSG produces, where every TURN you are trying to complete skill checks which the Cylon player(s) will use to chip away at your resources. And the great part of BSG skill checks is that EVERYONE can add cards EVERY check, so maybe every 2 mins or so. Good teamwork is required to not waste too many cards on a check and to choose which skills to fail intentionally in order to win the bigger skill check battles. Good play is required by the Cylon(s) in choosing when to add dirty cards and how many to add. The crises in DoW are only once per ROUND, meaning that it is much easier to work out if there is a traitor or more plainly, the traitor can't hide dirty cards in the crisis pile as easily depending on where they sit in player order and circumstance. BSG for me just forces the team to deal with many more things at once against the board game, while also having to weed out the cylon, skill check by skill check. The other big downside to DoW for me was the way that people CAN actually tank the game. Most commonly this should be the traitor. If the traitor knows that they cannot win, there is nothing stopping them from killing off characters etc in order to drop morale and end with a group loss for example. This doesn't happen in BSG because you are not playing semi-co-op, you are playing co-op with an unknown enemy. The enemy cylon(s) only have one goal, the humans only have one goal. It's you or them. One of you will win. I liked DoW actually, but BSG is simply more hectic. Saying that, BSG is also a lot more random. You can have a 3 hour game, the humans can also be destroyed in 30 mins. It all depends what pops out of the crisis deck every single turn.

[@Safersephiroth777]

What exactly is BSG man?

[@FSCB2013]

Battlestar Galactica. Came out a few years before Dead of Winter. Great game with very similar mechanics.

[@Safersephiroth777]

All right thanks.

[@EyalItsik]

Huh. The crossroads mechanics sounds very similar to the event cards in Android. I love the idea.

[@namelessfire]

I would describe the atmosphere as more bleak than dark. It's not overly violent or edgy; it's more a sense of hopelessness than anything else.

[@fuloran1]

+namelessfire Totally agree. Every single game I am waiting for everything to fall apart, no matter how well things seem to be going. And of course, things usually do fall apart.

[@Gustave154]

Wish I preordered this game now I have to wait xD

[@meeplesrule1522]

I like like point out that Tom might have missed ( I might be wrong) but you can play this as a pure Co-op. you play the objective on hard mode and without secret objective cards. Me and the wife (she hates things with zombies in them) played it last night and it was tough and we played Winter has Come which is a Long objective and lasted 3.5 hours and we loved every minute. Sparky the dog was the star of the show. Some of the crossroads can come around nearly every game but they will come at different points in games and really change your plans. I agree that there might be some weird mechanics like teleporting items and a dog using a sniper rifle but no board game is perfect.

[@ModernPlague]

Is it fun with only 2 players?

[@prebengoedbloed3077]

gotta love sam's bowie knives xD, really looking forward to play this game!!

[@azraelswrd]

To me, this is best played as a semi-RPG for the full experience. :) Agree that THIS is what the Walking Dead games should have been in atmosphere and tension. Definitely the best recent semi-co-op game I've seen since Marvel Legendary Villains or Encounters. Another game that uses noise is Zombicide.

[@mathieumartin9344]

Seems like a slam dunk! Still - if the next one is spaced themed, I'll be waiting for that one instead!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

It's an ok game but I would brag about it quite as much. For starters, as cool as those crossroad cards are, half of them will trigger every game and half will never trigger because they are character specific. The betrayer as a concept is fun but when a party includes a traitor, the party will not win, period. Those crisis cards are so difficult to pass especially if you get the same requirement twice in a row and they are all those same style of crisis. Collect 5 of this. . . . . . .woo. Now add the fact that a traitor can mess things up and it's just insane. Dice for actions, again a nitpick but you can have turns where you do jack because you rolled low. While everyone else is furthering their agenda because they rolled high enough to do the searching, Also how can a dog pick up and use weapons? I give it high marks for theme (bar the dog that's just silly) but I've too many issues with some of the mechanics to put it in my buy list. Occasional play at clubs I'll leave it as.

[@meeplesrule1522]

The dog is a kind of joke character and if you listen to their podcast they talk about the dog a bit how it can use guns and be the group leader it funny in ways that the dog can very useful but also be the first killed if the location is over run. its on par with mall santa, if the player with mall santa removes him from the game morale is raised by one.

[@JonGilmour]

I've seen all the crossroad cards trigger, even the most obscure ones. We did not want them all to go off every time you drew them. I've watched (and played in) plenty of games where the group exiled the betrayer, and completed the main objective. Sparky's crossroad card explains why he can use guns.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Even the ones requiring a specific character on the player to your left? Doubtful unless you have played this a hundred times! And why can sparky use guns.

[@meeplesrule1522]

Luke Hector you do know Jon Gilmour is co designer so i would he has played a 100 + games. i've played 3 games and seen character cards come around and be used in a couple of games. i just read Sparky's Xroad card and it make complete sense and what i though in my head as to why sparky is a bad ass. ;)

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Meeples Rule So in a post apocalyptic world, it's possible to somehow jury-rig guns to a dog so that the dog can fire them at will and actually aim them with relative precision?. . . . . . . . . .and also achieve this feat with small manipulating items (padlock, medical supplies) and larger more complex items (sniper rifle which requires long range steady aiming and a snowmobile). In today's world that's going a bit far! It's harmless enough if people like the idea and enjoy using him but I know I'd house-rule him. I understand the reasons for including teleporting/etc though if it made the game more streamlined which in fairness it does, but item carrying isn't the hardest element of book-keeping in the world. You want tough book-keeping I give you Galactic Strike Force! :P As for difficulty, well again, fair do's considering the game is almost impossible with a Betrayer! :P

[@PASTY06]

there is nothing that made we wince more than all the cards and, statuettes and stuff just being thrown into a pile.

[@lugo8824]

For those wondering how dark the book gets, the father tells his kid how to off himself if he gets captured.

[@CalebSmithBAM]

Sam, Tom: Top 100 material? Top 10?

[@SamHealey6]

Definitely Top 100 material now that I've played it a few times with differing groups of people. I would even say Top 20 material, but not quite Top 10 just yet...maybe...it has potential...but not at this moment.

[@cjpeach11]

Sam Healey Just wanted to point out, even Zombicide has noise in it, to be used as a distraction to your benefit or as a bad thing that happens in some scenarios.

[@NycLogics]

Is this a a good two player game?

[@ChristopherWalrath]

My son and I play this game together. We do not add a betrayal mission. It is good with two players. I love it.

[@dtotheatothevtothee]

Creator's inspiration: boardgamegeek.com/thread/1229073/jons-suggested-zombie-media-guide

[@_mjc_]

Zombicide has noise... that's the game you're thinking about.

[@timkuipers3455]

Sam hates zombicide and has claimed that it's rules are terrible. Funny how he's lauding this particular rule in this game. (I'm not saying he can't like one game and dislike the other, because they're completely different games.)

[@crouilla1]

Tim Kuipers Zombicide IS terrible from a rules standpoint (the game is OK -- nothing spectacular, but many of the dumber rules kill my enjoyment of it). Something tells me that the noise rule isn't what he's talking about in that game. Odds are his complaints are the targeting rules, the driving rules, the leveling rules, and the "amoeba zombie" rules.

[@Ulkomaalainen]

I never got the zombie craze. I am not too much into "horror" in general, and zombies I find mostly annoying (Plants vs Zombies being an exception). But ask me for a game of "Dead of Winter" and I'm in.

[@Kriterian]

If you're worried about the "PG-13" stuff the cards are denoted with a *#$! symbol at the bottom, so you can remove them from the game if playing with children.

[@Elementalofall]

children can fuck off.

[@trolzilol1634]

CEE7777777 umad? c:

[@Elementalofall]

Trolzilol lol memes trollz kekskies?

[@trolzilol1634]

CEE7777777 lmfao bathroom ninja toothbrush?

[@NeoGenMike]

Fun fact. That symbol for cursing is called a grawlix.

[@snowren24]

For me, its looking like this replaces Shadows, but not BSG. (granted my collection is closer to 25 games than Tom's 300. I kept Shadows because it was almost an intro to BSG, and it played quicker. After a couple plays, Dead of Winter feels even more like a lighter, quicker BSG so it will fill the role that Shadows has for my collection. This will not replace BSG though, BSG feels more epic. Also, I loved the show, so the theme is irreplaceable for me.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

I had the opposite opinion. I love Shadows and like how it's so simple to teach to new players yet retains the traitor mechanic in such a cool way. BSG has got too bloated for its own good and takes so long to play that I would replace BSG with DoW despite my issues with the theme/mechanics. But I can see that question being a hot topic for a while.

[@snowren24]

I can't comment on BSG becoming too bloated, we only play with the base game.

[@FlawlesSanshiro]

Nice one

[@gastchannel]

Drugs in a school (assuming it's the medical variety) would probably come from the nurses' office? Maybe I missed the joke. Looks like a cool game, still have an unplayed Zombicide on my shelf so I'll have to play that first to justify to the wife that we need another zombie game.

[@Lugo428]

So, 2 question. Which version of zombicide? It's been 6 years. Did you get the game?

[@GrandElemental]

Hmm... seems like an interesting game, but I am not really into story-driven stuff. Those games always have problems with replayability. Take Mice & Mystics for example, you can play it through once (as far as you can until you die) and then it's completed. It's okay for a video game to do that, because in the age of digital distribution platforms, these games cost usually 10€ or less. A huge game like this costs usually around 90€, and if it's only playable for one set of sessions, it really doesn't provide enough to justify the price.

[@JonGilmour]

Take a look on the BGG forums. The game has TONS of replayability. It's not story driven in that there is a campaign you play through. What they mean is that there is a lot of story stuff that happens and emerges while you play it.

[@GrandElemental]

Jon Gilmour Ok, that sounds cool!

[@jaxommm]

You are correct about the cost...it will take a year or two (or a visit to the US) before I can afford this one!

[@KAM1138a]

Mice and Mystics does have a campaign (story) which is completed, but there is no reason that you couldn't play the scenarios again--no different than other dungeon crawlers. There are many other variables, including different monsters, characters and equipment. Plus, you can replay with the newer material (not worrying about the specific story, and just concentrating on the goals of the scenario), or make up new scenarios of your own using the components provided. With the two expansions, there are many, many possibilities for replay.

[@senortostadas]

Thoroughly enjoyed the 70s porno component drop music

[@lordxmugen]

"There will be a Sci Fi Crossroads theme later on." So you got the license to make an FTL Board Game huh?

[@petervandenbossche1315]

i was thinking to buy ZOMBICIDE, prison outbreak, but a friend of mine advised me to buy this one.. dead of winter...was he right to say this ?

[@loozerid]

Want!

[@gogtad4395]

This looks good but I just don't think it is a one of a kinda brand new idea.

[@Lugo428]

you don't know what kind of school has drugs in it? Clearly you don't remember high school, Mr. Vasel. I kid.

[@john-paullaflamme1825]

Egziled? Really, Tom?

[@Nurgleprobe]

I just really wish that it was a 6-player game! ;_;

[@glencannondr]

smelling hand 1820

[@EgeTunca]

hmmm reminds me of robinson crusoe...

[@mgk2020]

The game looks terrible visually, but pretty fun.

[@Safersephiroth777]

+mgk2020 Yeah it works really fine! And it is simple but effective.

[@xenothonstelnicki597]

Strangest pronunciation of 2014 so far, Tom. Exile. Eggs-HEIL? You're scaring me, mate.

[@rustencel]

That whole can die at any time with role of dice on every move every turn is why will pass on this game.

[@rustencel]

on the one try gave the game, 4 of first 5 rolls came up on death, so we wrapped up game and moved on.

[@SamHealey6]

rob stencel Wow...that's like getting a mulligan in a card game, subsequently packing it away, and never giving it another go...which lacks reason and logic. You must understand that uncertainty always exists in a game with dice-rolling as a mechanic. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You're missing so much goodness!!

[@rustencel]

Wasn't only play, was just one of them. Didn't have to throw anything away as wasn't one who bought it, and there are so many games have and like, why would I continue to play a game if find substandard and way too luck based for my tastes.

[@SamHealey6]

You must see how your original post made it sound like you played it once, didn't even finish the game, and did away with it. It could also do with how you are playing the game. For example, I usually do everything I can in order to not have to roll the exposure die. That thing just has bad or worse options on it. But it is a highly thematic element to the game. Whenever you go outside during a zombie apocalypse in the dead of winter, bad stuff is gonna happen.

[@SamHealey6]

End of the day, I get that not everyone will like everything. So I'm cool with you having different tastes and all. It just initially seemed like you didn't give it a fair shake, that's all.

[@negvey]

Im actually not a big fan of cross roads cards, they are not bad, they dont ruin the game but I think it would be a little better without for it to have less "random" variable

[@MisterAbysmul]

When I finally tried it, I was greatly disappointed. It was so over-hyped that I worried that it was being over-hyped, and it really was. I understand that some folks love this game, but for me the theme really feels painted onto a jumble of mechanics (and I know the designers say it's not the case). The art/boards was also disappointing, to me it feel very washed out (not thematic). I'm glad when any game comes out and is successful, but this will never be in my collection, and I can't imagine ever choosing to play this over Shadows Over Camelot (I've never played BSG).

[@timdonald4092]

SOC is mostly go to a location and place a card. The quests would be so much better if they were different and matched what you're doing. Nearly every quest is just finding the right combination of cards and placing them. I find that rather boring and disappointing. I haven't played DOW but I plan on buying it when the price is reasonable. I may agree with some of your argument/points against DOW. However, I don't see how you can justify SOC over it.

[@gogtad4395]

I don't really feel like this crossroads system is all that unique, ffgs Android has really the same system but it is better because it is character specific cards.

[@SamHealey6]

Certain crossroads cards fire only if certain characters are in play. The game isn't filled with new ideas, but it uses a bunch of tried and true mechanics in a fresh way

[@MisterAbysmul]

Sam Healey Sadly, that's a big negative for me. It's that bunch of mechanics thing... with a zombie theme slapped on top, it doesn't feel fresh at all.

[@michaelmoore7273]

The problem with this game is that the traitor doesn't have to really do any kind of sabotage until his reveal. It might be better if they tweaked it and made it a coop game with agendas.

[@Gnarrkhaz]

Sound like a cool game. Too bad it has zombies in it. I'm so sick of zombies at this point that they ruin everything that comes in contact with them. It doesn't matter how good the game is, i'm not interested. A shame, really.

[@SamHealey6]

The zombies in DoW are so much of an afterthought that it should at least be given a go even if you don't enjoy zombie games. The game centers it focus more upon the interactions and developments among the group than anything else.

[@Gnarrkhaz]

No, i'm serious. If it has zombies in it i'm not touching it. I'm more interested in Arctic Scavengers at this point anyway. That game has an apocalyptic winter setting as well but it doesn't feel the need to resort to zombies. Of course it's an entirely different kind of game (competitive deck building) but it sounds great as well if not better.

[@ivanconrad6102]

Never been first, had to, sorry.

[@dorpth]

I couldn't get into this game. Gave up on it. The pseudo traitor mechanic with personal objectives just does...not...work for the genre as a whole. It didn't work with Cylon Leaders in BSG and it doesn't work here. Someone does something that is clearly not in the best interest of the group...okay? Do we risk exiling him or just chalk it up to his personal objective and not being a traitor? There's so little meaningful telltale signs between the two that you won't know until it's too late, so your best bet is to just play the odds that they're not a traitor and ignore them. The other is that the dice are just too punishing and not fun. There's already too much downtime between turns. Keeping an eye on people for Crossroads trigger conditions is NOT meaningful gameplay to keep people engaged out of turn. In addition to the downtime, if you roll crappy then you essentially skip your turn, a cardinal sin of board game design. That's not even mentioning the overly punishing mechanic of rolling for injury every time you change locations. Imagine if you had to roll a die in BSG and on a 6 you went to the brig. Do it again you get airlocked. It's not at all fun and is just frustrating.

[@randomusernameCallin]

I enjoy a number of zombie movie but for one type. The type that focus on a group and how they interact. I find it boring and too formulaic. I will skip this game because it seem to have all of the worse part of a zombie movie and it is leaving me feeling bad.

[@Haladras]

Absolutely cannot agree with this review. I was fairly disappointed with Dead of Winter and wouldn't put it up against Shadows Over Camelot, much less BSG. I'll give two problems I have with the game: The game's means of handling crises makes for maximum downtime, and while the Crossroad cards mitigate this somewhat, those cards only engage the person to the active player's left. Since everyone has a large amount of dice and actions to get through, there's little involvement when you're not the active player. In comparison to, say, BSG, the downtime's simply too much here. BSG's collaborative method for dealing with crises and more involved social deduction/paranoia keep everyone at the table and away from their phones. Secondly, the theme breaks down in a number of key ways. For instance, survivors equipped with weapons cannot use those weapons to kill other survivors. What the heck? Is Mike Cho not allowed to sully his sniper rifle with the blood of humans so that he's forced to use a shovel instead? For a traitor who's maneuvered himself into a position of material affluence in order to facilitate his coup, this is quite frustrating. Lastly, the group and personal objectives are not nearly as interesting as we've been led to believe. The "kill twelve zombies" one, for instance, is rather dull. DoW seems to have forgotten that BSG's resource dials are meant to facilitate player interaction/social deduction and aren't meant to act as the fixtures of the game. P.S. I don't know why Tom talks about a "deeper story." DoW has shallow archetypes, not defined characters, and I think that was an intentional move on the part of the developers. These archetypes provide relatability, but not depth. As for the Crossroad cards, that's not emergent narrative in the style of BSG's deduction -- it's an injection of narrativebotox into an otherwise narrative-lite game. It's an inelegant text dump.

[@SamHealey6]

I will say that DoW has not and will not replace either SoC or BSG. However, I will say that it is an equal to the others. I don't know how you guys are handling the crises, but it all the games of DoW that I've played, they have all been handled in strikingly similar fashion to those I've played in BSG. I don't know what you're doing, but handling crises provides the least amount of downtime in the games that I've played. Furthermore, with respect to the Crossroads cards, it is imperative that all players listen to the choices given and interact with the active player in either persuasion or dissuasion. Otherwise, a traitor can really make some heavy-hitting decisions with other survivors knowing. Concerning survivors equipped with weapons killing other survivors, I'd have to look the rule up again as I know that survivors can attack other survivors, but even if it is true, I fail to see how this facilitates the breakdown of theme. Even a traitorous survivor wants to kill people in relative anonymity. If someone is taken out by a sniper rifle, and the one person in camp has a sniper rifle...he's pretty much exposed at that point. But if that same person doesn't use the rifle and bludgeons the victim to death with your shovel...lesser to no exposure at all. I think it fits quite nicely into the theme. And the "inelegant text dump" view of the Crossroads cards is unfair, at best. I can't think of a single time that the Crossroads cards haven't facilitated an emerging narrative that spawned both player interaction and deduction, and sometimes simultaneously so. I understand that there are different strokes for different folks, and all, but felt compelled to voice my counter-points. Cheers!

[@Haladras]

Your counter-points are noted and it's absolutely fair that you present them. What else are comments for? The weapon issue might make sense for an iconic or rare item like a sniper rifle . . . but what about a pistol from a horde of pistols, or any weapon, common or otherwise, outside of someone's bare hands. The fact is that someone in-universe is unnecessarily risking a lot (big chance of being found out or wounded, says the dice) to try and kill someone because extra diagetic elements dictate that using the same weapons would be unbalanced under the present rules. As a traitor, being better equipped does not help you actually take care of other survivors. Besides, isn't it some sort of coup when you start ordering your followers to kill other survivors en masse? We're not necessarily worried about the court trial at that point, and neither is the follower about to commit murder. Anyways, the point is that whatever dominant force a player might exert over the equipment stash disappears when they turn traitor. Many of the Crossroad cards I encountered were triggered events, not votes, of which we drew three. Perhaps that was a bad run; if so, that bad run of cards lasted five games. Decisions simply didn't play a major factor, so they felt like text dumps meant to supplant emergent narrative. DoW handles crises as more of a crisis "bucket" into which players dump whatever resources they want into the bucket. It's less of a communal decision and more of an afterthought when someone's finishing up a turn. Crises' role has been minimized or transformed, with the crisis card no longer being a communal centerpiece and instead accompanying the Crossroad card du jour or local zombie cull. When I said that downtime was maximized, I was referring more to the action dice and expansion of actions from one to X (number of followers), which was designed to service to the new way of handling resources (food, crises, and so forth). I admit that "crises = maximum downtime" didn't quite cover what my actual problems were. I cut the above paragraph short because I already felt I was writing too much, but I realize now that doing so made me appear disingenuous. I apologize for the omission.

[@guidomoyanoloyola7282]

Sean Weeks Sam Healey I am happy to read that Sam was not thinking that DoW could replace BSG or SC. I had a similar experience as Sean. I found the downtime between turns (even with 4 players) too long and not really involve (we didn't have any AP players, but even so, between deciding whether to make noise or not, or the action it took some time between turns). I did not feel involve in other people turn (besides trying to figure it out which one was the traitor) as I feel on BSG. The other issue is being unlucky enough of having only 2 survivors when others have 3 or 4 (just random pulling the cards, not because they were the traitors and wanted to tank the colony). Granted, BSG is too long in comparison but if I want a shorter game I have SC. I would play DoW if my game group want to, but will not really enjoy it.