Michael Heseltine: From Thatcher to Sunak

In the first ever episode of ‘Leading’, Alastair and Rory are joined by former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Heseltine. One of the biggest names in the last half-century of British politics, Lord Heseltine discusses everything from his crucial role in the rise and fall of Margaret Thatcher to his current position in the House of Lords. 
Tune in to hear Michael talk about how politics has changed, why he lost the Conservative whip, Europe, Brexit, and the Miners’ Strike.
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[@rorykeegan1895]

Michael did the work as a Minister, that in itself is worth respecting. He is correct on many things and a lovely man.

[@Charlie-UK]

As much as I might disagree with Michael Heseltines politics, the one thing we can agree on is Europe. I am glad that Michael has never stopped advocating for the UK having closer links with Europe. His lone voice of reason, in a sea of current Tory Brexiteer madness is very welcome. Great interview...

[@robertdarby6553]

Heseltine is absolutely correct about the European debate. It takes people of that generation, who remember the horrors of the second world war, to realise that the EU is so much more than economic prosperity, cultural exchange and freedom of movement. It is, more than anything, about peace. No two European countries have ever gone to war with each other, or anything like it. As Heseltine said, his ministerial colleagues actually fought in the war. Now we just have Tory Prime Ministers who think it is sexy being photographed in a tank, as if it confers some sought of military status that they never earned.

[@ParcelOfRogue]

To those who said European wars would no longer happen, you only had to look at the Balkans War in the 80's or now to Ukraine, who are desperate to get into the EU and NATO. In the former war zone, Croatia are now joining the EU.

[@redrev674]

NATO kept the peace in Europe not the EU. It was American and British troops in Germany. The EU has no concerted military force unlike NATO which is effectively the US.

[@robertdarby6553]

@@redrev674 You need a political solution to ensure longterm peace, otherwise you end up in a state where armies glower at each other across the border, as is the case with North and South Korea. NATO keeps the peace between Europe and Russia. The EU ensures peace within Europe - something that has never happened before. How easy has it been for the Brexiteers to undermine that.

[@kevinley2170]

@@robertdarby6553nonsense. The UK never started any war in Europe and so it never needed to be locked into a political structure. Germany was the offender and was the only country in Europe that needed to be shackled. Why anybody thinks the UK, a 1000 year old democracy, should also be locked up is beyond me. The UK had its commonwealth. The EU achieved for Germany what Hitler could only of dreamed of - European domination - without firing a shot.

[@robertdarby6553]

@@kevinley2170 Where do I start in unpicking that pile of nonsense? England has done its fair share of fighting in Europe. at one time it even controlled more of France than the French did. That was accomplished by invasion. As for a 1,000 year democracy? That is palpably untrue. The roots of the EU came from the French and the Germans agreeing that they never wanted to fight each other again. The Common Market started with six countries and then morphed into the EU, pulling in more countries as it went along. As a vehicle to maintain peace in Europe it has been remarkably successful - something that anyone with a cursory reading of history would appreciate.

[@blehoo1]

Absolutely brilliant story at the end. Lovely to hear these two talking to this old Tory grandee.

[@LuluLou-i1t]

Wonderful to listen to someone who speaks confidently and knowledgeably about politics. entertaining to listen to.

[@BloobleBonker]

Always so refreshing to hear Tarzan. Restores one's faith in human sanity.

[@robertcook4705]

Thanks; for me the best Al/Ror programme so far in terms of explaining how we got here.

[@michaelgoss9606]

Excellent thank you. It’s a pity the late John Smith was not mentioned though.

[@geraldinelynch4497]

Such a great man, reality based, intellectual - miles away from populist fantasists..

[@stephenconway2468]

Stunning

[@maejohl]

Fascinating conversation - thank you!

[@qeitkas594]

Michael is right. Demographics will turn Brexit around. So it is going to take another 10-20 years. Sounds more realistic than all the short term poll driven revived optimism for rejoining. The frustration of further economic decline and the loss of freedom of movement due to Brexit have to be lived through much longer before minds will change. We are just at the early stages of this process.

[@paulfr6768]

So nice you had to upload it thrice.

[@edenmurphy4295]

Very nice to hear from a sensible tory I might disagree with him on somethings but he has very interesting perspective

[@davecap2641]

That was excellent guys.

[@christianecoughlan7392]

Individualism is what broke society! We should be in it TOGETHER, not each to its own.

[@farehamhammer2397]

Interesting interview .As Rory said he was surprisingly keen to give credit to Mrs Thatcher .

[@geebards]

As neither a European or a Brit, I've nevertheless maintained an interest and currency of awareness in UK politics. Having said that, on the matter of Brexit, even if in some mid-term future the people of Britain determine to return to the EU, how sure are you that the UK would be accepted back? If they did, how different would a UK return have to be? Would you be compelled to join the Euro-Zone? In some ways the Channel can be an ocean.

[@nicholasarrow2443]

How sure are we? Very not. I think a generation will have to pass, and the mindset of the UK change dramatically, before the EU will - or should - even consider letting us back in.

[@BONK_2000]

Our country is in a sorry state.

[@jeanarundale44]

Help me 😢with this problem - instead of saying we don’t have the money to help the country to live better, Why can’t the government say we will do a careful view of waste, particularly in the NHS, and we will stop putting money into battleships, rockets, and other vanity projects, and we will improve the infrastructure, the education, and the lives of our people.

[@huwzebediahthomas9193]

Us Brythonic Celts got our lesson on European politics, not a thousand years ago with the 1066 Normans, but the year 44 Romans, almost two thousand years ago.

[@dominicestebanrice7460]

Young people only have themselves to blame I'm afraid; a teacher friend did a straw poll the day after the referendum to his class of first year university student; only one out of nineteen in the class actually voted in the referendum! This is anecdotal and only a single data point but we all know that they couldn't be arsed; it's tragic.

[@maureentravers3419]

Wonderful

[@huwzebediahthomas9193]

In a parallel universe, Michael and Alastair and Rory, I could have possibly been a Tory, and presently much personal richer for it, no doubt, but eventually, I would have had to face up to my soul.

[@vseme1572]

Awesome!

[@jstelzner]

Margaret Thatcher Ronald Reagan and you really can't see how that ends up with Boris Johnson and Donald Trump!

[@aperson22222]

Three separate videos with identical titles and run times have been posted to this channel, are they all the same?

[@JDODify]

Gentlemen - you've really got to try and get the economist Mark Blythe on this new series. He's a really good speaker and will concisely explain to Rory why Austerity is a disaster.

[@KevinThomas-kxtphotography]

Now that would be a great Podcast. 🙂

[@JDODify]

@@KevinThomas-kxtphotography Have you read any of his books? Or just watched his lectures on KZbin?

[@KevinThomas-kxtphotography]

@@JDODify I started watching his lectures when the Brexit debacle began. He was one of the voices of sanity. I haven't read his books.

[@JDODify]

@@KevinThomas-kxtphotography His book Austerity is good, but its basically just a longform version of his lectures which are available on KZbin - the extra background is helpful to a non-economist like me though. His book "Angrynomics" is more fun and probably more relevant to the problems in the political class today.

[@andrewrobinson2565]

I had lunch with Michael Heseltine in Saudi Arabia and he didn't speak like this. He was tied into being a minister and trotted out the policies of the day.

[@johnwright9372]

Michael Heseltine started as a minister in the Thatcher government and was very right wing at first. Then he visited Liverpool and realized what economic destruction Tory policies were doing to traditional industrial areas. In his later years he appears to be respecting facts and leaving ideology behind.

[@johnalbent]

31:05 that's what's so frustrating about political language...who DOESN'T believe that?

[@OldQueer]

I thought something had happened to him with the 4 different notifications popping up.

[@Vignanello555]

Hearing Rory and Archibald interview Lord Heseltine makes me regret that we will never hear them interview one of his most distinguished Labour opponents, Tony Benn....

[@josyms7849]

28:26 what's the name of the person referred to by Lord Heseltine

[@twocardtarot6479]

You're not allowed to change your theme music!!

[@matthewshamas2803]

I agree with him regarding Brexit being a mistake but I’ve no idea why he thinks Sunak has brought sanity back to British politics.

[@tomfreeman650]

The only Tory welcome in Liverpool !

[@huwzebediahthomas9193]

This is the full biscuits one?

[@adrianaspalinky1986]

I'm clicking "like", pretending to be interested, just worth bumping you up

[@huwzebediahthomas9193]

Michael, allegedly, swung the Commons' Mace once, over a bunch of helicopters, if I remember right. A Westland - Sikorsky - Augusta thing, or something.

[@the0nlytrueprophet942]

Asking an 89 year old if it’ll happen in his life lol. Probably not Alastair, don’t remind him

[@syedadeelhussain2691]

Heseltine is right about Brexit. I fully endorse his pesmissim.

[@londresparis_1]

Kuf the tories and the political class.

[@thomasbootham2707]

Michael misses the fact that In joining the eu (then the eec) we cut ourselves of from our closest allies in the commonwealth particular Canada australia New Zealand and India and in doing so caused a great of suffering to those countries by joining the eec which we owe a debt that can never be paid to those countries unlike our European neighbours who have constantly back stabbed the uk and the same goes for the USA which has never been our friend brexit gives an opportunity to rekindle relations with our commonwealth allies who we have more in common with and have proved through actions are closest thing the uk has to actual friends with the exception of Ireland and the Netherlands the uk never had its heart set in the eu and never should have joined

[@huwzebediahthomas9193]

Michael Heseltine walks into a Swansea bar, on his 90th birthday, and the landlady, polishing the bar like a piece of fine bone china, looks up, and says ' Oh you again, you took your time, look all, look who the cat found and dragged in - the Germans are arriving again tonight, two bus loads, from Bonn apparently, on the the Dylan Thomas trail like - an half again, bitter, m' Lord?'.

[@zahiddar3675]

Regarding great modern speeches, here is one from Gordon Brown that saved the union. Perhaps they should have got him more involved in the Brexit referendum Remain campaign too. Who knows, he may have swung that result too! kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGSck3WMbKh1gM0

[@michaelwilliams3232]

Westland helicopters anyone?

[@rohitballal5654]

What about them?

[@michaelwilliams3232]

@@rohitballal5654 Source of conflict between Thatcher and Tarzan. Sikorski (US) or Westland (UK). Look it up.

[@johnwaugh6518]

You keep saying that there has been no rational debate about brexit but the pro-remain lobby have not stopped publicly decrying the decision taken in the referendum, reinforced by two general elections. I thoroughly enjoy your interviews but is it not time for you to interview people who don't agree with you on this central issue? You have a platform and we have heard your opinions. Now how about a courteous and respectful discussion with representation from both sides in which people actually disagree agreeably.

[@CMI2017]

Or accept that all polls show that Brexit is deeply unpopular which shows that politics is dynamic so referring to a 6 old decision and those elections is just history and has diminished pertinence relevance. The while thing has moved

[@trevfindley]

Who would be your pick for a pro-brexit public figure who is credible, and willing to have a civilized discussion in good faith?

[@johnwaugh6518]

@@trevfindley I agree, that is a hard one. But part of the reason for that is that no one wants to put their head above the parapet for fear of having it shot off by people who don't disagree agreeably.

[@johnwaugh6518]

@@RyanJ_ "Brexit lies" is the sort of comment that does not encourage people to stand up and talk. I wish we could sit down over a glass of your favourite tipple and talk about this. This type of forum tends to produce a lot of heat but very little light. I live on the other side of the world, we are not in the EU. We are just a small country but we are okay. Our major trading partner (the UK) gave us the heave ho in favour of the EU in 1973. This despite the fact that we had shed more blood per capita than the UK defending the UK, just a quarter of a century before. It took a while, but we are doing pretty well now even in a world dogged by inflation. If we could do it, so can you.

[@johnwaugh6518]

@@RyanJ_ I don't and yes I don't like Farage or anything much that he says. But the European parliament was taking over from the UK parliament and reducing it to a glorified city council. An MEP represents approx. 1 million people; a Westminster MP represents approx. 92000 people. That is a ten fold deficit in democracy. Are you happy to give up that much say in your own government? And that is before you look into the machinery of the European parliament, which you might kindly call baffling but more accurately undemocratic. There is room for agreeable disagreement here with no recourse to pejorative language and , in which, both sides may learn.

[@shakthidhasan4544]

Britain is blessed.