Michael Murray - Philosophy of the Bible

[@jan-erikjones9376]

Thank you Michael Murray for this conversation. Very thoughtful and important. I look forward to reading your book on this.

[@nimnone]

Im amazed by how clearly he can answer such a question

[@innovationiq]

Questioning underlying assumptions and searching for justification can be a pathway to doubt in, reinforcement of or new direction in current believes. That is the wonder of seeking the truth for even when the truth cannot be scientifically justified, the journey that brings you closer to it can be extremely valuable and rewarding. Mother Teresa herself is famous for openly acknowledging her own doubt. Respectfully challenging the unchallenged is one path towards progress.

[@thomasridley8675]

Creating your own cult or becoming a spin off of an existing cult isn't that hard. The Christians seem to be the best at the art of creating culturally specific realities.

[@thomasridley8675]

And then you end up in one of their many alternate reality mind control cults. The truth is that we are just as clueless as the other 100 billion humans who have walked this planet.

[@sandradixon6205]

While various men were used in the inspired writing of the Bible they rightfully viewed it as God’s Word as is evidenced by their use of such phrases as “expression of God’s mouth” (Deuteronomy 8:3), “sayings of God” (Joshua 24:27), “commandments of God” (Ezra 7:11), “law of God” (Psalm 19:7), “word of God” (Isaiah 38:4), “utterance of God” (Matthew 4:4), and “God’s word” (1 Thessalonians 4:15). God is the Great Librarian who sets the standard that determines which writings should be included. So the Bible has a fixed catalog that contains 66 books, all products of God’s guiding holy spirit. Even though these books were written by 40 different men over a period of about 1,600 years, they are in complete harmony with each other showing there was only one author, God. Jesus accepted the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, as canonical and quoted from many of them. Also, the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures, or New Testament, quoted from them too. The Apocryphal books of the Hebrew Scriptures are not included in the Bible canon because they are out of harmony with the inspired books and were never quoted by Jesus. At the Council of Trent in 1546 the Roman Catholic Church confirmed the acceptance of these additions into its catalog of Bible books but the Bible canon was completed in the year 98 when the apostle John finished writing his three letters, or epistles. A clear division was made between the inspired Christian writings and works that were spurious or uninspired. Almighty God is the Inspirer and Preserver of his Word, the Bible. He is the one who has guided the gathering together of its various parts.

[@Appleblade]

2 things: I've known KJV ministers who believe that version of the bible 'corrects' old manuscripts... that's how inerrant it is. Old manuscripts are dismissed as 'obviously corrupt texts, probably throw in the trash as corrupt'. So, they consider revelation to imply divine preservation, step by step, through time. So that's just one position you can take on inspiration or what constitutes revelation. Also, or second, there is a place in the NT where Paul says something like, "I don't have this from God (or the Holy Spirit?), by my opinion is..." That statement creates the need for a 'Philosophy of the Bible', doesn't it? It introduces a paradox: if it is inspired, then it involves Paul in uttering a falsehood, perhaps unbeknownst to him, but still a falsehood... he DID get that assertion as inspired, like the rest of scripture. If on the other hand, his statement is true, then the bible contains uninspired opinion, at least in that one instance, falsifying the claim that the entire bible is 'the inspired word of God'.

[@evaadam3635]

... the salvation of our lost souls relies NOT on what imperfect men wrote on any book... but relies solely on our Free Will to choose to believe in a loving GOD without knowing HIM... ...the unknown TRUTH out there is INDEPENDENT from whatever imperfect men wrote on any book for us to put so much attention on....

[@questor5189]

An astute observation, Appleblade. Can the Holy Bible be inspired by the Divine, and yet occasionally errant and fallible? Truly a paradox, as you have stated.

[@DickWagenaar-m1w]

If a philosophy of the Bible includes questioning its underlying presumptions, does that not throw into doubt its claims of ultimate truth?

[@questor5189]

There is a red letter edition of the New Testament ( words of Christ in red ink ). I have also been told that there exists a red letter edition of the Old Testament; the words of YHWH Elohim in red. Approached by the serious Bible Student or Philosopher, all words in red should be viewed as "revelatory" and all remaining words in black should be viewed as "inspired". Nevertheless, how does one determine the validity of revelation, or the validity of inspiration? I submit therefore, that Epiphany or Transcendence must accompany the reading of both the former and the latter; yet even those encounters or experiences remain subjective.

[@nyworker]

The history and philosophy of the Bible goes hand in hand with the history of the church. Love the church or hate the church, the church was the driving force in the Western Civilization.

[@evaadam3635]

...and like the tragic fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, the slow destruction of the Churches being replaced with "Darwin's Kingkong Institutions" is now dragging the Western World down into the immoral abyss of no return... ...and if one ever wonders why our ancient ancestors were so cruel and barbaric in burning, hanging, decapitating non-believers in the ancient times, then wonder no more because they must have understood the horrible terrifying heinous evil that these heretics are capable of doing... ..but for salvation purposes, it is better for non-believers to live longer so to still have time to change their ways to save their souls.....

[@realitycheck1231]

I dont know why the book of revelation was titled as such. According to ACIM, "revelation" refers to a direct, personal and often wordless experience of complete union with God (higher mind), where doubt and fear are temporarily suspended, essentially a mystical experience of divine truth that cannot be fully described in words; it represents the original form of communication with God and creation, signifying a profound sense of love and oneness. Revelation in the bible is considered to be fearful, with its vivid imagery of judgement and destruction mixed with messages of hope and victory. I dont consider it "revelation". It seems more akin to a novice psychic prediction a' la Nostradamus.

[@nypala]

Coming from a European / catholic background, it's interesting to see how much importance is given to the Bible in the American society. To the extent that even more secular oriented people cannot leave it aside in a discussion.

[@randscottadams490]

This is more a reflection of Catholic vs. non-Catholic thinking. Catholics place equal or more authority to “the church” than the scriptures. Non-Catholic, typically protestant and possibly evangelicals put 100% authority in the scriptures that reveal God’s plan for mankind, his sending the Messiah for salvation, and for the principles of living as a new-creation person and Messiah follower.

[@gsr4535]

Don't believe everything you hear about how fundamentalist Americans are. Exaggerated. They are talking about a few religious universities. A few out of thousands.

[@ampagetech2624]

@@randscottadams490 If God sent Messiah for salvation of people who are his children - why did he delay his appearance in Africa ( sub Saharan ) for nearly 1900 yrs ?? How could a father leave his children in darkness for all this time even though he is all knowing all powerful ?

[@kennethschlueter9338]

I am an ex Catholic American. I find it noteworthy that he doesn't talk at all about scriptures from other faiths.

[@thomasridley8675]

The bible, talking yourself into believing your self-absorbed cultural theology is actually real.

[@newtonfinn164]

How's this for a philosophy of the bible? The subject is God and His dealings with the world. The authors are a variety of ancient Israelites, largely unknown, who wrote over a period of several hundred years before and shortly after the beginning of the first century A.D. What these authors left us is a very interesting, very human account of God and the world, often edifying and uplifting, but also amenable to being used for harmful purposes, such as past justification of slavery or current justification of genocide.

[@grumpy9478]

that's putting it nicely.

[@questor5189]

A valid viewpoint newtonfinn. I am persuaded that ancient cultures were less civilized than we are today, and this must be taken into consideration when reading the Old Testament. But your point is well taken.

[@sandradixon6205]

There will always be people who take scriptures out of context and twist them to fit their own agenda, much like the churches do. However, serious Bible students will instantly recognize this misuse of scripture. Also, those who misuse scripture will have to give an account to God for doing so. (Hebrews 4:13) The Bible foretold that soon all religions that are displeasing to God will be completely destroyed so it’s our personal responsibility to make sure that we know the Bible well and put into practice what we learn. (James 1:22-25)

[@bubsie44]

That’s a good summary of what it’s about, but I think a true philosophy of the Bible would have to include questions about how to read it, its relation to other texts, and the nature of religious truth itself.

[@grumpy9478]

@@bubsie44 are you kidding? that's called critical reasoning! no place for that in "serious bible study", where appeal to the a priori truth of the subject matter itself is sacrosanct (pardon pun). a pre-enlightenment pov that sandradixon's above comment demonstrates perfectly.

[@azharalibhutto1209]

Great ❤❤

[@mikescott5440]

Robert, my sincerest apologies for neglecting to share with you the details of lsst night’s dinner. Though, I must warn you, it’s a tale utterly devoid of excitement. Exhaustion had me in its grip, and cooking was out of the question. So, I settled for one of my trusty gainer shakes-a necessary evil in my battle to keep pace with a metabolism that seems hell-bent on burning me to dust. The recipe? A brutish mix of three scoops of gainer powder from Super Supplements, a generous splash of whole milk (two cups, to be precise), a few tablespoons of peanut butter, a cup of oats, and a drizzle of honey to cut through the monotony. It’s not culinary art, but for someone as devoted to weightlifting as I am, it’s sustenance in its purest, most functional form.

[@sujok-acupuncture9246]

Great insight by Michael Murray. Its time to include excluded chapters once again. The lost information about Jesus has been strongly emerging. Its time for scientific community to recreate a new version of Bible.

[@js1817]

The canon is already closed. The books that all traditions reject were probably rejected for good reasons: e.g. they were heretical or known to be inauthentic (e.g. written centuries after Jesus). Also, revising the canon wouldn't be the proper work of "the scientific community". Scientists in general are not Biblical scholars. It's not that good books were lost and found, but rather bad books were considered for the canon and rejected.

[@sandradixon6205]

Almighty God is the Great Librarian who sets the standard that determines which writings should be included. He is the Inspirer and Preserver of his Word, the Bible. He is the one who has guided the gathering together of its various parts. He says in the Bible that it’s wrong to add to his Word or to take anything away from it. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18, 19)

[@js1817]

@sandradixon6205 I've been a Christian all my life and I know that that's one popular and traditional way of looking at the Bible: it's perfect. But, the more I study it, the more I see that it's messy and often weird. There are many beautiful passages, but it is not unified or systematic. It is often not clear. One needs a great deal of historical scholarship to contextualize the prophets, and the legal and semi-historical texts look very much like the product of human imperfection, rather than a reflection of the acts of a perfect God. Like Lewis says, I can't share the Protestant enthusiasm for the Bible or the R. Catholic enthusiasm for the Church. Of course, everyone loves Jesus, but just who the historical Jesus was isn't clear to me.

[@Nekoyarou7766]

How is rambling nonsense is philosophy?

[@Move_I_Got_This-b3v]

Catholics trying to take credit for the Bible is like a typewriter taking credit for it.

[@irfanmehmud63]

6 minutes and 55 seconds wasted.

[@Jinxed007]

You sat through all 6 minutes and 55 seconds?

[@semrana1986]

Now that is knowledge...

[@Maxwell-mv9rx]

Mr Robert questions him are wortheless Philosophy . It is rambling Philosophy of Religious instead. A lot rambling rethoric About Religious make sure they are talking for nothing. Iol.

[@evaadam3635]

"Philosophy of the Bible" Why only about the Bible when there are other religious books ? The topic should rather be about Philosophy of Religion to cover all... The following light may help you understand how religions came to be, hopefully : Religion simply started with the acknowledgement that we humans are creators.... and the realization that we did not create NATURE has led many to believe that a Bigger Powerful Creator exists.. It all begun when stone-age people believed in the Almighty Creator by just witnessing the Awesome Wonders of Nature... and because of their faith, many of them received the heavenly light that made them understand GOD better.... they then share this light to their descendants .. .. the sharing of this light went on and on from generations to generations that finally were written on tablets, scrolls, bibles, etc.. being interpreted in many different ways due to the writer's language handicap in ancient times... ...the passage of this light from generations to generations being interpreted, or misinterpreted, had led to the development of many religions from all over the world ... this is why you have genesis, bible, koran, torah, etc etc... ... I believe I received the same light because of my sincere faith, but fortunate enough that I have enough available words today to interpret and convey this light much better, unlike ancient writers whose literacy was still in its infancy... this is why you find my interpretation somehow different but has many things in common with what you read from religious books.... ..nevertheless, it is your sincere faith in the existence of a Loving GOD that matters that can save your soul, and not how imperfect men interpreted the unknown GOD through the light they received...

[@mikescott5440]

Dear CTT, I’m sitting here, pants around my ankles, staring at the bathroom wall like it holds the answer to this relentless cycle. Something’s off-IBS, anxiety, OCD, who knows? It’s like my brain’s hardwired to sound the alarm even when the tank’s empty. I get up, I sit down, rinse, repeat, fully aware that it’s pointless, yet here I am, stuck in this absurd ritual. If I didn’t work from home, this would be a disaster-a humiliating, career-ending parade of unnecessary bathroom breaks. Whatever it is, it’s maddening. A quiet, personal war waged in porcelain solitude.

[@evaadam3635]

...God created this World to represent Heaven and Hell in the Spiritual Realm that has provided us hints that there is better or worse place out there to hopefully find faith in a loving GOD for our souls salvation... ....so, the comfort and joy we feel in life represent Heaven... and the pain, suffering, discomfort we feel represent Hell including even the foul smell around you while unloading your golden treasure...

[@mikescott5440]

@evaadam3635 Ah, a golden gift of wisdom, I appreciate that my friend. Speaking of odors and the human condition, there’s this nightly ritual of mine-an intimate communion with my toes. Under the soft glow of a dying lamp, I slide my pointer finger between them, a grotesque excavation disguised as hygiene. And then, as if by some ancient, unspoken law, I sniff. Not because I like it-God, no-but because something in the deep, animal part of my brain compels me. The scent is a riddle, raw and faintly accusatory. I can’t be the only man wrestling with this bizarre compulsion, can I? Somewhere out there, others are sniffing too, bound by a secret fraternity of foot-scent anthropologists.

[@steveng8727]

I was 'Inspired' to write this - If you read the bible in a literal way - you discover books about an ancient tribal religion w' child sacrifice, animal sacrifice, genocide, slavery, etc. (see old testament). The 'literalists' also believe the book of revelation is about 'our time' when most scholars know it relates to the destruction of Jerusalem almost 2000 years ago! Mixing mythology, fairy tales and a bit of historical narrative is a recipe for ignorance and chaos. Ancient tribal texts (bible & koran) portray yahweh & allah as warrior gods, (think Crusades).

[@evaadam3635]

...stone-age men believed in the Almighty Creator before tablets, scrolls, books existed... you only need to apply your Free Will to choose to have faith..

[@S3RAVA3LM]

Every character in the bible is an aspect of you. The bible is a compilation of wisdom teachings spanning from ancient india, egypt, and greece, sprinkled with some hermetics, platonism, gnosticism. Within the bible, there is astrology, psychology, physiology, science, realizations, etc. The bible isn't original but a compilation, really a syncretism book. The Hellenistics of Alexandria 2000 years ago compiled the bible. Makes since because the school of alexandria was a nexus or hub for many a great and prestigious erudite men. The torah has its roots in the veda. For veda is brahma itself. However, from Brahma to the veda, and then summerian, to Babylon, then was somehow translated into hebrew, which the ancient greeks adopted the hebrew text as one of their own documents...here is where the New Testament come to be, and the compilation of old Testament and New Testament are together translated into the KJV. The Bible has been concocted into the form of mysticism, and any genuine man of science would seek to find out what this means and why. There are many quarrels regarding translations, past and future tense, reasons for paraphrase and metaphrase, etc. Do not get caught up in this revolving door. It is important to understand translations but such arguments result in "my word of God is better than your's." ^ easy fix to this predicament: just study Platonics and hindu metaphysics instead. Learn about the stars as well as thyself, have a critical mindset, learn the special methods for true inquiry,...but of all one must have a yearning and longing to seek and if you don't, then go do something else. I like scriptures because they're difficult, multiple levels, enigma's and deeper meanings, too correlations, and it's a sacred science in contrast to mathematicians(who think they're scientists while they're not). It's cute that so many are detractors and denigrate, but none of them can even interpret a single page of the bible. I'm not a scientist, but i do consider myself a man of science. Because scriptures are deep and profound, many a persons have many different understandings of what they mean and none of them are wrong and all of them are not exactly right. For there are cycles both of the universe and man just like the seasons here on earth. Realize the stepping stones, the growth, process of realizations, ultimately transformation. Scripture isn't for everybody. Scriptures can be a tool or a weapon. Some people just aren't ready yet. They need to be told what is what and need to hold and measure stuff... there reality is particles, string theoies, big bangs, quantum, multiverse, atomism, and everything is physical, dual slit experiment.... these such persons like to think they're men of science... but i ask again and again: where is your model? Because if we collect all their individual theories and speculations, we find out very quickly the universe cannot possibly work like that....they try so hard, to deny God and spirit and Wisdom and Truth and Justice and The Good and Conviction and Beauty. The mind is very difficult to overcome the wisemen say. Are you really sure you're not fabricating your reality?

[@grumpy9478]

hard to prove a negative, but yeah, I'm pretty sure. open question you might be regarding yours.

[@LuuLuong-bn8iy]

1ble ? 😅😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@evaadam3635]

..you can get away from devil's possession by just applying your free will to resist while you are still breathing...

[@LuuLuong-bn8iy]

@evaadam3635 Eva & Adam is 2ble? 😆 🤣 😂

[@LuuLuong-bn8iy]

Bi > 2ble? 😅😂😂😂😂😂

[@evaadam3635]

..you still have a chance to save your soul, you are not dead yet... do it before it is too late...

[@LuuLuong-bn8iy]

@@evaadam3635 i M dead & walking 😆 🤣 😂

[@mohdnorzaihar2632]

Merchant of Venic by Shakespeare reveals to us "why" some Jews rejected Jesus

[@sentientflower7891]

The Biblical Messiah was a conquering king not a dying sacrifice.

[@gettaasteroid4650]

"why"? the Merchant of Venice only reveals that Shakespeare's audience was still familiar with Thomas Draxe, so much that "learning was the eye of the mind", the mind of a broken and then later cloned olive tree (Romans 11-15) and the real enemy was the Hyrcanian deserts

[@DickWagenaar-m1w]

to question the underlying presumptions of inspiration and revelation of and in the Bible--is that not to place into question the foundation of Christianity itself? In other words, can there be a philosophy of the Bible that does not undermine its own claims of truth?

[@grumpy9478]

of course there can... it would clarify & confirm the emotional / mystical / unmaterial / magical / unprovable nature of almost all religions via a set-aside category of philosophy. the emotion wouldn't go over well inside the god biz. maybe "utilitarianism w/ special pleading & a leap of faith thrown in." ?