Michael Shermer on Transgender Athletes in Sports | The Forward with Lance Armstrong

Join Lance in the fourth installment of this series focusing on transgender athletes in sports, as he is accompanied by writer and founding publisher of Skeptic magazine, Michael Shermer. They discuss the current regulations surrounding transgender athletes in sports, the lack of science in and around this topic, and what this conversation will look like in ten years.
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[@moveuphere]

It’s a sign of a falling society when you have to seriously address those type of questions.

[@cartermoth6447]

Gender disorder is a mental disorder. It's nuts to see how this 'movement' has become mainstream (& have the law on their side to bully & cancel normal people). The west is a hellscape right now.

[@southwestlegends6912]

Lance Armstrong…..you’ll be the champion of this. Start interviewing WOMEN in sports.

[@jbhager8662]

It's coming. Series of interviews

[@angieb8941]

He brought up my sport. Disc golf. Males have their biggest advantage in throwing sports. The governing body for disc golf (PDGA) follows IOC. So, there have been several transgenders in the female divisions. They have won significant titles. When the IOC changed the rules, the PDGA assembled a medical committee to study the issue. Based on the findings which relied heavily on Hilton and Lundberg, they decided to adopt the same rules as swimming (FINA). One of the trans athletes sued in CA and only lost on a jurisdiction issue. She then sued in MN and won a temp restraining order which allowed her to compete in The Preserve tournament. Many of the females are working with ICONS to protest this. The trans athlete will likely sue in any state that puts trans rights above female rights. One especially disturbing thing in MN is that their human rights law allows for female only hiring if being female is central to the job. My guess is this is so strip clubs can hire females only. Pretty sad that it is allowed for exploiting females but not to protect fair competition for females.

[@Edmond347]

I have no idea what you said above. You may as well have written in Sanskrit.

[@gregmoore1781]

Thanks for the reply... I have been following the situation in disc golf, too, and I was honestly surprised that it was the sport to see many of the women stand up and push back. I wish all sports had the majority of the women athletes push back.

[@user-iy3nv6qp7f]

Very good and practical points made in this interview. Thank you, Lance, for taking this on. Thank you, Michael, for being so thoughtful and outspoken.

[@tybot1980]

Lance is a great interviewer. It takes serious ball to take on this subject.

[@JimChap]

Lance really has his eye on the ball here. I've been waiting for someone half transitioned to weigh in.

[@glennoc8585]

Waiting for a sports women's perspective

[@smulismuli7976]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a33Ce5WQe91ofpI

[@kizzerd]

Preach! But there's a few in-bound 🍻

[@smulismuli7976]

@@kizzerd clarify further or give examples

[@Otisbear480]

Why can't you make up your mind without a woman helping you?

[@sarahkinum9900]

Seriously….

[@ilovechaos3]

Lance, have you interviewed or tried to interview Lia Thomas or Austin Phillips?

[@CFCMahomet]

Lance… If you want to hear all sides, let’s hear the women’s side.

[@smulismuli7976]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a33Ce5WQe91ofpI

[@number4cat1]

Which KIND of woman? A fake one or a real one?

[@CFCMahomet]

@@number4cat1 in this instance, I want to hear the perspective of a female athlete who is invested in everything she has in her sport, and it’s being taken away

[@AngelGonzalez-hc4zw]

Another great interview and great to hear from Mr. Shermer. A RAAM pioneer. I also have to say I don’t give a shit who is Liberal or a conservative! Science is science! This is not about inclusion, it’s about the rights of ALL athletes. Great series Lance!

[@jackrsanders]

Lance, I've been a fan of yours since you were a Kid! Followed your career throughout the cancer and after, and this Subject you are on, your Interviews are incredible and the information is "Spot-On" Women should only compete against "WOMEN" and my attaching span is not the best in the world, however this is the third installment/interview that I've watch and I'm thinking what a great "JOB" you have done to bring this to the attention of all who watch, 7 Times LeTour. Cheers!

[@davidharden7575]

GREAT conversation!

[@andreasmaher8749]

Shermer speaks what is obviously the truth. The previous interviewees danced around the subject.....

[@stoempert]

I listened to that Pielke guy but that was pretty bad, he seemed to try to make the subject as convoluted as possible. Probably because it's hus area of 'research'.

[@jbhager8662]

It's a series. It's coming

[@mikecarter6758]

Just a great conversation! Yep, the best guy won and I watched and enjoyed every minute of it! Still a beautiful race and I'm hoping for a competitive one this year.

[@user-rc9il4en8w]

When you see Matt Walsh and Michael Shermer put in the same side you know the world has changed too fast

[@jearwood85]

Lance… you are still the GOAT. Much respect from Wales.

[@alaindenis509]

Better being a goat than a sheep

[@gregmoore1781]

It may sound like a small point, but it is in fact a huge point, I really wish Lance would stop using "transgender FEMALE", or "identifying FEMALE"... NO... the transgender activists were the ones who initially claimed that "gender (woman) is a social construct while sex (female) is biological (scientific fact)". We HAVE to have SOME continuity, some objectivity somewhere, and it should land with FEMALE / MALE CANNOT CHANGE. EVER. So, you can use "transwoman" or "trans-woman", "male identifying as woman", but we should NEVER allow 'female' to be applied to a male.

[@nrjetik1]

I have watched all of your episodes on this topic. As a biological woman who has competed in sports, I have strong opinions regarding Trans women being able to compete in the same categories. I also understand the humanistic side of those who feel slighted and discriminated against because they identify and want to live as a woman. That said, I feel until a Trans woman can menstruate, go through the various cycles of emotional changes, ravenous cravings, getting her period on a start line, having cramps, all the psychological and physiological symptoms of pregnancy, miscarriage, and then the FINAL menopause, they are not WOMEN, They are people who want to be ... I have lived long enough to ( 63 years) to see title nine, and just recently in women's cycling, better pay and longer races. Honestly, it's only been 100 years or so since women got the right to vote in the USA. Why can't the world acknowledge what women have fought for, our recognition, and what we add to society be taken away by men who now identify as women. I know there is not enough real science out there yet, but it seems obvious with what science we do know about the physiological differences between males vs females especially after puberty that men have a clear advantage. Thank you Lance for bringing this subject to the forefront. We need to find solutions

[@anthony9600]

Well said

[@annewilson6648]

Totalitarianism is,upon us,WAKE UP PEOPLE 😮

[@Solarsystem50]

Great series, I had the same questions about the matter and learned a lot. Also, cant wait to see Lia Armstrong sweep Le Tour de femmes

[@1vaneligbruker]

If he know he would win, he probably would have done it already. But he is ban for life in cycling

[@basedgodstrugglin]

I’m 3 minutes in and can guarantee people who made comments calling the last two idiots are going to praise this gentleman

[@patrickbateman7444]

Yes, and we are right.

[@stoempert]

Because the previous two were pretty embarrassing.

[@1vaneligbruker]

He did say woke and canceled culture. So you already there know he is a conservative.

[@1vaneligbruker]

​@@stoempertfollowing the science is cringe

[@stoempert]

@@1vaneligbruker no, but those two dudes were

[@acerrubrum5749]

Taking the one year off (to take hormones) is also an advantage. One more year of training, one more of year of growth and development, than the women competitors.

[@alaindenis509]

Leave it to the professional skeptic to explain this topic better than all the previous guest on this podcast.

[@jwbjpb1338]

Regardless of all else the importance is to treat ALL people including those who are transgender with respect.

[@RichardTasgal]

If enforcement of doping rules is going to be spotty, I'm at least glad that the top athletes are the first to be investigated. It would be worse if more of the lower-down athletes were caught and fewer of the top competitors.

[@Frandaman84]

Lance doesn’t do pro bike related things on this channel?

[@1vaneligbruker]

Does lance armstrong not remember what they talk about in the previously conversation?

[@kob8634]

I can't get used to the 'slurping inhale' of Shermer's.

[@dfinma]

This isn't even a discussion -- males compete with males and females compete with females. Make new divisions if you want but it's just that simple. It's not complicated and there's no fear...other than dudes hurting girls/women.

[@leeboat]

Why this?

[@smulismuli7976]

What people need to keep in mind, especially when it comes to minors, is that human brain is only fully developed at about age of 25-26 years old...think about it

[@flonomcflooneyloo7573]

Why is Michael Shermer's head orange.

[@sgf312]

It ok to not support trans and to not agree. Treat everyone with compassion and will the good of others.

[@bluechipBBN]

Lance should debate Peter Hotez

[@robertwhyte3435]

On what subject?

[@bluechipBBN]

@@robertwhyte3435 whether or not i’m gay

[@agcgilmour]

Mike Shermer, where's my tandem frame???

[@marcusymarcos8750]

Lance, I’ve been your fan since 1993 Worlds in Oslo. Through Cancer. Through Cofidis. Through those 7 Tours. Fights with LeMond. Through USADA. Through Oprah. WEDŪ. All of it. I even have an Oura ring. Still a fan. I’m listening with an open mind but if you use the word “woke” in a sentence I’m afraid we’re done. Your guest did but you didn’t take the bait. So far so good…

[@suzannemccaffrey3814]

I am a women's basketball player. Title 9 allowed me to compete and attend college on a full scholarship. I played on the boy's team in high school. Once sophomore year came on, I could compete anymore. Where are the women? This shouldn't even be a conversation. Hormones don't start when puberty hits. Men are born with testosterone. Also, puberty is starting sooner and sooner. This drives me crazy. Please tell me any groups I can join to fight this problem. It should be called "Take a Knee."

[@robertwhyte3435]

What do you think it shows when you refer to polls? You talk about relying on science but then use polls to support your positions. Funny how you can talk about cancel culture and taking a knee without even a hint of irony. Ask the Dixie Chicks, Colin Kaepernick, Ice T etc. Watch the responses to this comment.

[@chance4771]

Perhaps lance should trans to female and go to the TDF femme. What do you think will happen Lance? Like really?

[@Man-xf4jv]

Bruh can we j get the tour preview,. instead pls

[@EdMontego]

Oh No, another One!

[@jamesl3546]

I am in agreement that the biological category, "female," cannot be erased, female sport needs to be protected from unfair competition and that women's demand for safe spaces should be respected. What I didn't like about this discussion is the way it drifted towards a portrayal of trans rights as equating to "mass hysteria," and the Salom Witch Trials. So ironically demonising trans rights which I am sure was not your intention.

[@gregmoore1781]

Great point... Lance commented how Utah just passed a ban on males in womens sports and how there were no examples of any trans... as if that is a bad thing! NO, it is better to stop the problem BEFORE it becomes a problem. Don't allow a male to start down that road then suddenly be told he can't do it, and more importantly, don't let any girls get hurt in the first place.

[@OakleafOrganic]

1:00:22 😆

[@SuperHuia]

The problem seems to have started with the different meanings of 'woman' to different people. Surely if sports groups used the biological word *female* to describe participants it would solve the problem. Trans woman are not female by definition.

[@scottlong2505]

If I was an elite runner and lost a finger would I qualify for the Paralympics? If I identified as disabled , would this be fair over a Paralympic athlete born with one leg?

[@1vaneligbruker]

You might want to look into the criteria of the paralympics

[@clarkebugbee3475]

Mike Shermer's comment about children in California being taken away by protective services for not allowing their child to transition is false. Also, California law will not allow surgeries or hormone therapy to children (under 18) without parent or guardian consent. I question his credibility. If science is going to be the driving force in this conversation, please do the proper research and stick to the facts.

[@RichardTasgal]

Just because unambiguous women might not have any chance of winning does not mean that they can't swim for fun and fitness. Perhap it's better for women in general not to have so much focus on the top several swimmers. Resources that might have gone to elite female swimmers can instead be directed to getting more average female swimmers into the water.

[@gregmoore1781]

So, women should just accept recreation and not have the opportunity to dream of being the top of their sport? I know a 14-yo girl running track in Oregon... got knocked out of 3rd place in the state meet by a male identifying as a transgender-girl.. should this girl just have to deal with the fact she will be losing to that male for the next 4 years in high school, and maybe recognize that by the time she gets to college there will be more males to beat her? Should she just not get to dream of success like a boy can?

[@RichardTasgal]

@@gregmoore1781 There are a few women and girls that would be hurt by this, which is unfortunate. But you could then put more resources into broad participation by average women, and more women would benefit. There is likely to be less interest in the combined unambiguous plus ambiguous women category, which may make shifting funds towards the non-elites even easier.

[@RichardTasgal]

You could equally well -- without objection from me -- say the same to transgender women, that they need to compete in the general category, that is, against men. This would mean there is no realistic chance of their winning. Can't have everything. They too can still do sports for fun and fitness.

[@gregmoore1781]

@@RichardTasgal Oh, so you think it is just "a few women/girls", and you have determined that is OK? So, men are the only ones who society believes warrant the opportunity to experience success in competitive sport, to have the same opportunity as men/boys to make teams, to win races, to set records, to earn scholarships, to make olympics, etc? Women/girls are designed in a way to develop the next generation, and as such, their physique is compromised (smaller frame, pelvic/thigh/knee/ankle alignment, menstruation, mammary glands, etc.) for sport relative to their ability to compete against men/boys. But they dream just like man/boys, they benefit from competitive sports just like men/boys. Society values competitive sports, including women/girls. But you think all of that should be sacrificed TO BENEFIT transgender people??? How very respectful of women.

[@emetzger]

if anyone understands the trans issue it's someone who identifies as someone who won the tour 7 times. you du you.

[@1vaneligbruker]

He also identified as a clean athlete in 2009

[@lloydranola]

Really. Another dude?

[@dminner]

Lance was exploited by a Media company headed by ruthless/unethical management. It was a hit job.

[@janholding5206]

Lance, that's what you should do, become Leah Armstrong! This would be the ultimate challenge to this bullshit. Do it!

[@michellevey9608]

The changing/locker room is no big deal at all! I do it so l know. Just respect and covering up. Easy cheesy really .

[@clhollow1]

So if someone's 13 year old daughter is at the gym, changing, and an adult man walks in and gets naked in fr9nt of her...no big deal? A few years ago there would be criminal charges

[@michellevey9608]

@@clhollow1 You don't ever get naked in front of someone. When was the last time you were in a women's changing room?

[@glennoc8585]

You do what exactly and where? Do you change in front of the opposite sex in the workplace?

[@visualvirtue9640]

One group's rights end when they infringe other group's rights.

[@insiderinside1905]

Lance left out the worst part of the john money story.

[@badgejohnson5596]

Lance can't seem to finish a sentence.

[@holylandfan3275]

Why does Lance use so much profanity? There are other words to say and it’s not even necessary.

[@rankobarensic]

Special Olympics suites the trans-athletes serious..

[@wheelmanstan]

Long live common sense.

[@jameshallahan769]

You should interview Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying

[@BiblioteksTV]

The Trump of sports.

[@cyclingninja6780]

Good shit here. Lance was punished because he was über cut throat and the apex asshole, of the peloton, and as we see today, people care more about feelings than truths. That being said… he’s still the greatest tour rider of all time and yes…. He did win the Tour de France 7 times. #legend

[@sw6493]

"Fear-based" debate? What fear? Trans-women are not actual female women. They are different. Biological fact, not "fear-based" interpretation. This debate should be left up to actual women. If they want to continue competing against trans-women men, that's up to them.