Michael Shermer Tests Acupuncture

[@BuckBowen]

I always love the subtle yet massive Appeal to Ignorance. At 6:49 the woman claims, "there are a lot of things beyond what we understand," then concludes, "but there is something there." In other words: we don't know, therefore we DO know (fill in the blank).

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Exactly

[@bkstudio1990]

@greyepistle unlike acupuncture though, asprin is shown to work in double blind studies. Also, although doctors don't understand every reason aspirin works they do understand the pain and headache relief has to do with salicylic acid, the active ingredient in aspirin.

[@petdoctor3]

we do know how aspirin works....

[@greekmillennial4540]

I loved Michael Shermer in Tomorrow Never Dies

[@clray123]

So... the reasoning goes: 1. There's so many things that I can't explain. 2. Here is an example of something that I can't explain. 3. So it must be true after all. Well done, Mr. Sherlock!

[@rank101]

I've read some case studies regarding neurosurg and acupuncture: First local anesthesia is used to numb point of incision, then the pt is put under general anasthesia--so they can drill into the skull, and the pt doesn't have to hear it. Needles are then inserted then connected to an e-stim. Pt is brought out of general and wakened. The pt is still partially under. Acu is used as a support mechanism to anethesia to ensure comfort when pt must be conscious during neurosurg.

[@bobbypaluga4346]

I was a college student visiting Hawaii and I met an OBGYN at a resort. He was with a large group of US doctors returning from visiting China to learn about the practice. His feeling was that acupuncture was not useful nor effective. It was not used by itself in surgery and rescue meds were always available for a patient who needed them.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Anyone who takes accupuncture & pseudomedicine seriously because of their stupid eastern-medicine-cultural-biases is just a subhuman mental inferior who never worked hard, never sacrificed, never suffered real pain in their lives, & has the luxury & privilege to throw tons of money away on bullshit that physically does nothing to help people, if they are the patient, or has the luxury & privilege to do childish pretend doctor play as a naturopath or accupuncturist or "eastern medicine" salesperson and get paid for their bullshit.

[@rank101]

Blade: Patient complains of unilateral calf pain. Sharp, piercing quality, fixed location. Had a recent knee replacement. Swelling at knee and lower leg and some redness noted. Pulses are wirey and choppy Bilaterally, and slightly slippery in 2nd position on R hand. Tongue is purple, swollen, scalloped s/sublingual dilitation. What's your Dx? How do you treat, what else do you do? Any additional therapies--cupping, tui na, herbs?

[@somor98]

Great!! I love you Michael Shermer!!!

[@rank101]

So total required ed for TCM practitioner in US is approx 8 yrs (2 yrs undergrad 3-4 yrs grad, 2 yrs doctoral). Medical training in US is 4 yr premed BS, 4 yr. med, and at least 3 yr residency. So that's 11 yrs to be able to be an independent MD (have to finish the residency before going into private practice).

[@rank101]

It also happens in some acupuncture clinics--those that use various practice management consultants such as David Singer. Did a couple of clinic visits to these very busy practitioners--they see patients every 7-10 minutes. Ask a few questions from a self-report form the pt fills out in the waiting room, needles inserted, practitioner leaves and goes to next Tx room. Assistant removes needles after 15 min, pt leaves. Pt has purchased health plan and all appointments are pre-scheduled.

[@blade0817]

@Marq72 So what you're saying is that currently clinics, hospitals and medical facilities that are more and more widely accept and integrate acupuncture/OM in their practice are taking the risk of being sued for practicing placebo? Just as a few example, the famous Mayo clinic, Children's Hospital of Los Angeles... and then many others that new have acupuncture/OM departments just accept the fact that they now knowingly offer placebo treatments?

[@jackthebassman1]

I have severe back pain following childhood injuries. Acupuncture certainly has NOT worked for me

[@RaitoDenki]

+Jack bassman Let me try to explain. It's like asking a doctor to heal your obesity when you keep eating shit. It is kind hard. But hey, if you do the treatments over a period of time, and take advices the doctors give you, you will get better. or you can take drugs for the pain until your liver needs replacing. that is fine. no is forcing you,

[@jackthebassman1]

+RaitoDenki Let me try to explain, there is no such thing as demons, fairies, pixies, devils etc. so your reply is irrelevant.

[@RaitoDenki]

Jack bassman​ Let me try to explain. Chinese Medicine does not claim the existence of demons, fairies, pixies, unicorns, or anything else supernatural. So your reply to my reply is irrelevant. When you are touched anywhere in your body it sends a message to the brain, correct? Is it that hard to believe with all the registered treatment results that puncturing a certain area can affect your body in certain ways? Even if puncturing only induces the body to send leukocytes or increase blood flow to the punctured area, or by stimulating the parasymphatic nerves (which are connected to the organs by the way). It took trial and error to discover these points, trial and error, just like Ocidental Medicine(50ish years old on an open culture), thats how Chinese Medicine (5000 years old in a closed culture) evolved, thats why although it is not well explained it does work. I am not stating that Ocidental Medicine is worse, I believe both should work together. Make no mistake their way of explaining the treatment is very... primitive(due to closed culture where it evolved) however it does work! If ocidental culture just accepted it, there would be no difference betwen the 2 types of medicine, if ocidental medicine actually cared acupuncture would be part of 'normal' medicine. I study Chinese Medicine, I have always been a sceptic. In highschool in my country at 10th grade you can choose wich area to study (arts, economics,etc) I chose the most difficult, Science and Technology. I wanted to be a nurse, however nurses are having a hard time getting payed in my country so I decided to take Chinese Medicine (since I did a paper on it, during highschool). Obviously I was very sceptic. Many classes I have are not just about Chinese Medicine . I took anatomy, biochemistry, fisiology, farmacology, pathology, bio medicine among others. Once you study both you are able to "make bridges" and understand that it does make since even though (like I said before) chinese medicine way of explaining is primitive. BUT IT WORKS.

[@jackthebassman1]

+RaitoDenki Fringe medicines, are complete bullshit.

[@RaitoDenki]

Jack bassman Stop being ignorant and read my comment.

[@blade0817]

These are not from a random site, I am a student of TCM, these are from records gathered from our own clinic.

[@TheRealAOL]

Also, to become a D.O.M. requires 10 years of study. 4 years of Pre-Medicine, 4 years of Graduate level study in both Western and Oriental Medicine and then 2 years at the Post-Graduate level. 10 years. How long did you study for Nurse607?

[@blade0817]

I am in contact with a TCM practitioner who closely works with a TCM doctor that has achieved great results with cancer treatments. These patients continued to have checkups at their regular doctors that were puzzled of what was happening to them. All tests showed either significant slow downs or complete reversals. The results raised eyebrows in the medical community and now the cancer research institute of Boston is working with him. This TCM doctor also healed ex-governor Craig Benson from..

[@robertlowryjr]

If it's mostly placebo then why does it work so well on infants, dogs, and multi-million dollar race horses? Why does it decrease inflammation, increase range of motion, improve gait in race horses etc?

[@rank101]

Besides, Blade, I've already outlined the baseline requirements for entry into TCM colleges as outlined by the ACAOM--do the due diligence and look it up on the ACAOM website. What's outlined above is the baseline entry requirements for med school. Keep in mind not everyone gets accepted into med school, while applicants to TCM colleges are readily accepted provided they can pay for it or qualify for financial aid.

[@blade0817]

Points Hegu (LI4) and Zusanli (ST36) increases the release of certain types of hormones (17-OHCS and 17KS specifically), Zusanli (ST36) also affects the movement of stomach. Zhongwan (RN12) promotes gastric secretion while Gongsun (SP4) and Neiguan (SP6) suppresses it. Danshu (BL19) and Riyue (GB24) leads to gallbladder contraction, and Zhangmen (LR13) causes gallbladder expansion. These are all verifications of the ancient observations from over 2000 y/ago related to the specific functions.

[@blade0817]

For the acupuncture program at Stanford contact: Co-directors: Brenda Golianu MD and Emily Ratner MD, at UCLA it is offered as Continuing Ed. for physicians, contact the Office of Continuing Medical Education.

[@calberkeley01]

i cant wait to get this done

[@dlandon2000]

@cuevarap Do you have a peer reviewed paper I can read? From what I've read acupuncture does NOT show a statistically significant result when compared to placebo. If it does then I agree there must be some physiological component to it.

[@blade0817]

By the way the program I am going for takes 8 years to receive the masters then an additional 2 years to receive the OMD. Now, in western medicine you can also get your MD in 6 years in certain fields (such as a chiropractor) so nothing is really different. All of the instructors at our school studied 10-12 years and received their diploma at one of the TCM universities in China.

[@blade0817]

I am currently preparing for my Masters in Acupuncture. I do say that combining both western and eastern medicine is the best approach to healing. Some illnesses respond better to western medicine and just like in this video, some to acupuncture. I also have done several tests myself and amazingly even those who don't have any concept about acupuncture describe the same feelings they experience internally. Sometimes I have others with me who are amazed to hear the same exact things they felt!

[@swizzlesticksnap]

I am not American, nor am I fat. How do you propose acupuncture works? My opinion is that the patient's powerful belief in its effectiveness is enough to have a real impact, coupled with a release of pain-killing endorphins. In short, it works as a semi placebo effect. I am interested in your thoughts. If you disagree with me, how do you propose acupuncture actually works?

[@ehaberli]

The Chinese concept of "Qi" is a simple metaphor for the proper function of the body. Acupuncture, and more importantly Chinese Medicine as a whole, uses this metaphor to diagnose and treat as it has been observed. There is a long linear tradition passed from master to student throughout history where research is done by observation and incorporated into treatment. It uses principles that state the body can heal itself, we just need to encourage it.

[@Paul-A01]

When studying QM, we use machines to study particles. These change the properties of the particles, you don't need a conscious observer.

[@tsferg]

What does accupunture do for these animals? Is there a video of this? Do they sedate the animals and numb them before they do the accupunture like they do with humans? I happily await your reply!

[@blade0817]

@Marq72 The Harvard studies never looked at pediatric or veterinarian acupuncture which also show the same results as any adult treatments. Babies and animals are cured of their illnesses without any placebo effects. Can you explain these? No placebo effects with either group.

[@SamonMarquis]

It's a Placebo Effect. If someone were asleep and we applied Acupuncture and removed it, once they wake up they would still report pain.

[@GuthriePrentice]

actually, there is some evidence in top peer reviewed medical journals to show accupuncture's relief of pain and post-operative anxiety, message me for the link to a paper covering this. I can't give the link here because youtube doesn't post comments that contain links or email addys.

[@blade0817]

I'll PM you on the school.

[@bdcarlitosway]

How do you know it works on horses? Do they tell you " hey that feels good, I feel all better"

[@newmanwong]

what ever, yeastady I got heavy headache, and I am too lazy to see doctor, then I find a link about how to massage the specific points("xue wei") on the face(2 points beside the nose, 2 points below the eyes, one points on the highest point of the head, and one points behind the heads), massage each point for 1 mins(I did't do 1mins may be 20 seconds each), about 5 mins my headach gong, I was so suprise, that's why I try to learn more about chinese "xue wei",it's really work, at least for me.

[@blade0817]

Like I said. Our program takes 10 years for the MD. 4 for the BA/BS, 4 more for the masters (includes the 2 years clinical) then you can take the National Board exam, and began practicing as a LAc. (Licensed Acupuncturists). The Board exam must be renewed every 5 years. After that if you want to get your MD it's another 2 years of schooling. Some schools might take different approaches, but ours take 10 years for the MD. This is the route I am taking.

[@rank101]

Medical residency is supervised clinical training: Residents present to attendings, attendings sign off on treatments administered. Oh, and the DAOM? That is not a requirement. It is completely optional so that actually makes TCM training 6yrs to practice, not 8.

[@cuevarap]

@chebob2009 What you're saying has passed through my mind and of many others (placebo-endorphin trick) but considering that acupuncture isn't jungle baloney, has been going on for a long time, is practiced on complicated surgery instead of chemical anesthesia, etc plus having backup by the American Association of Acupuncture et al., could it be that many physicians including patients and animals worldwide are badly disturbed?

[@Cinqmil]

Question: How can you examine someone with an MRI scan when he has needles stuck in him?

[@BobLewis1]

I would have liked a discussion of the placebo effect. According to the National Council Against Health Fraud, the pain relief effects of acupuncture, though they have been recorded, have never been demonstrated to perform beyond what would be expected from a placebo.

[@blade0817]

Also a study conducted in 2006 in Australia has concluded that while mistakes in acupuncture are extremely rare, they are twice as likely to be from those completing short trainings programs - such as doctors taking 'crash courses' - then practitioners completing the lengthy legitimate Traditional Chinese Medicine schools. So you are twice as likely to have medical malpractice done on you from a conventional practitioner than those graduating from a TCM school. This is a fact from studies.

[@El-Leion]

illness etc is a result of the bodies energy system being blocked. acupuncture is where they insert pins at the points of entry and re-entry of the bodies energy in and out of the body, its called the meridian lines

[@blade0817]

...to my girlfriend's surprise, her daughter described the exact same internal movement feeling she did previously, and these feelings were happening to her daughter at the same exact steps and at the same exact time intervals. If it's just sham medicine, how did this occur? My girlfriend never talked to her daughter about it, I did this for her because she wanted to be convinced. Furthermore, she now asks me to do this procedure on her regularly because it helps her daily life so much!

[@metsesell]

I have had an acupuncture treatment, and it did have some strong effects on me but did not cure my condition. But about 5 of my friends have had great results with acupuncture.

[@TheShadowlin]

@LonesomeTroubadour It already has. There are four forces, the EM spectrum, thermodynamics, a ton of particles... etc...

[@Geeker13]

Vernejoul then challenged his work by injecting isotopes into the blood vessels at random areas of the body rather than into acupoints. The isotopes did not travel in the same manner at all, further indicating that the meridians do indeed comprise a system of separate pathways within the body.

[@rank101]

While U.S. trained med students only have to pass in the 50th percentile. My training included herb/drug interactions--it CAN occur contrary to your contention. Jue Yu Xue Fu Tang further potentiates warfarin--a bad thing--if the formula is indicated for the condition. Therefore, you have to heavily modify the formula to avoid further potentiation. Gui Pi Tang, could possibly elevate BP thru the pharmacological action of Huang Qi--again, modification is necessary if pt has uncontrolled HTN.

[@blade0817]

MRI imaging showed that puncturing point Hegu (a major headache reliving point on the hand) with an acupuncture needle has reduced up to 70% (!) of pain response in the brain - announced by the Radiological Society of North America on their 85th annual meeting. The data was also viewed at the Harvard Medical School which after the review announced: "The data is very impressive, this shows there really is something going on there". Many other scientific researches are already available.

[@InvisiMan2006]

In another example, we had a rescued cat who suffered from severe seizures, So bad that the agency we were fostering for was going to put her down. She was on several anti-seizure drugs and none helped. She would seize every 1-2 days. As a last effort, we tried homoeopathy. She was adopted out hasn't seized in over two years. As much as I want to believe that it's coincidence, I simply cannot explain or deny the dramatic turnaround. I have several more examples of this!

[@rank101]

Well, considering I work in a hospital and I know many transdisciplinary practitioners ie NP's, RN's, PTs, OTs who are also LAc's, my position and theirs is very secure. Besides MD's are often on indepedent contracts, and they're either renewed or not, unless they're hospitalists.The LAcs in the hospitals in my area are eliminated (one of largest metropolises in the country). So contain you're enuresis with bu zhong yi zi tang or perhaps sang piao xiao, if that doesn't work, try DDAVP.

[@rank101]

Dude, you may want to analyze two popular formulas: Xiao Yao Wan or Gui Pi tang. Since Chai Hu (the Chief) can cause dizziness, or nausea, you adjust the dose and add another LV coursing herb. Gui Pi, again, adjust dose of Astragalus according to the condition of the Pt. Do you know the qty of Huang Qi that raises BP and the qty that lowers BP? That assumes Gui Pi Tang is the appropriate formula for the pt. the key to formula construction is knowing the fx of individ contents. Board ex questions

[@blade0817]

Nope, our school does not have a test requirement for entry just a BA/BS. We do, however take many courses that correspond western med. courses - such as biomed, lab classes (blood, x-ray, MRI ... etc), western internal med., microbiology, western pathology, pharmaceutical, gynecology ... etc. and we do have western med. doctors teaching at the school as well. These go along the TCM classes because LAc.s/DOMs use western technology to assist their diagnoses and treatments.

[@rank101]

so are you saying that if one doesn't practice energy arts, they don't receive benefit? From what you are stating, one could make that deduction, and with that you kind of kill the benefit argument.

[@rank101]

The point that Sampson was making (not that I fully agree with him, but on this point, I do) is that many TCM practitioners don't have the training or clinical experience in diagnostic methods or even general inquiry to arrive at a possible biomedical Dx. Of course, in many states, it's outside the scope of practice for a TCM practitioner to make a medical Dx. But many practitioners don't even ask pts if they saw an MD for the condition and what the Dx was (if s/s were far outside the norm)

[@rank101]

@greyepistle how aspirin works is clearly understood. It's in the cyclooxygenase (aka COX) inhibitor family--all NSAIDS. by inhibiting COX, prostaglandins are inhibited b/c the fatty acids (arachadonic acids) are prevented from converting into prostalandins. while prostalandins serve protective functions, they also produce pain and inflammation after cell injury.

[@blade0817]

Feel free to PM me with studies that describe diagnostic changes (pulse, tounge ... etc.) and still pointing to simply placebo.

[@BrendanBeckett]

Um, they discussed that evidence in the video.

[@rank101]

PCP=Primary Care Practitioner (of which MDs are, some DCs may be depending on state and scope of practice. I think in CA, acupuncturists are PCPs) CAM: Complimentary and Alternative Medicine TCM=Traditional Chinese Medicine

[@blade0817]

Milbrandt just published his research in the April 2009 issue of the Acupuncture Today paper, that is where I just read about it.

[@blade0817]

I just came back from a treatment from a nasty cold and I am about 70-80% recovered with just one treatment. I can again breath easily, the intense caughing has almost completely disappeared, the congested lung has been cleared, throat (airways) opened up. This is from a 30 minute treatment. Acupuncture works and the best thing about it is that it's all natural without side effects. I recommend to anyone to try it before they make any comment about it.

[@rank101]

That really depends on the program and accreditation. One can start a TCM program with only 2 years of college, enter into a 3-4 year TCM program and exit with BOTH a BS (often a bogus BS, such as "Nutrition" or "Pain Management") and a Master's of some sort (MTCM, MOM, MSOM, MAC). DOM is completely optional, so let's see, that's 5-6 years total just to obtain credentials to sit for boards and obtain licensure--not 10 years.

[@rank101]

Probably best to differentiate b/t acute and chronic pyelo/glomerulo neprhitis. Factors in acute are bacterial infections (strep, UTI) infection autoimmune disorders (SLE), recreational/pharm drugs. In rare cases viral infection (HBV, HCV, rubella) can lead to glomerulonephritis. Chronic may be the progression of unresolved acute neprhitis which may be due to unresloved infection, end-damage resulting from drug use prescribed OR recreational-depends on population.

[@blade0817]

My coworker is a vietnam vet, he has three bodies who fought with him, they were HARD CORE smokers for decades, the tried the pills, the patches, nothing worked for them. Finally someone suggested acupuncture, they didn't want to do it because they didn't believe in that 'woodoo', finally they went and all three of them quit, best of all, for years now none of them even touched a cigarette! Any skeptics can explain this? Something they firmly believed in did nothing to them, but the woodoo did.

[@Kymus]

from what I have read, a better translation for Qi would be electricity. It seems that what the doctor in this video is doing is essentially taking an extreme form of Master Tsang style acupuncture (which uses very few needles) and combines it into a sort of electro-acupressure.

[@robertlowryjr]

Tri State College of Acupuncture is in New York, maybe call them up and ask them. Some schools let you get treated by interns for a lower fee, the interns are supervised by Licensed Acupuncturists or TCM Doctors for obvious quality and legal reasons. I don't know the situation with Tri State's clinic but I do know it's a good school. They will know someone near you.

[@blade0817]

Something is wrong with my computer, keeps deleting what I am writing. :(

[@rank101]

all this means is that your local garden variety acupuncturist will not be able to determine what type of presentation it is: need at least an ultrasound. Usually by that time, they'll either do an external version. This may be done @ 39 wks. If @ 40 wks, c-section will likely be scheduled. However a CNM or an MD who is also a trained acupuncturist could start the treatments that day w/o having to go outside the facility. no need for a hosp to hire an acupunk.

[@beforever]

@wygram yes I suppose all it takes is an evening course in herbal medicine to understand the complexity of the human body.

[@blade0817]

As I already mentioned before the route I am taking is: BS (already completed) -> masters (working on it) -> doctorate -. PhD (most likely in Shandung, China). So while most acupuncturists may take a different direction, these are my personal plans.

[@marblemill]

@cheobob, difficult to clarify points with limited space...but the authority, of course, is not by some broad enforcement. Its sway comes about by the faith that much of the population has in it's wisdom. And still there are ethical decisions in politics made based on scientific researches. I understand that the peer reviewing is intended to keep such things in check. I am hinting at more fundamental philosophical flaws.

[@rank101]

akinj do you really want a patient to feel pain during a surgical procedure?Can you state with complete certainty that acupuncture as a stand alone anesthesia intervention is 100% effective 100% of the time?Do you think it would be medically ethical to withhold additional anesthesia techniques to ensure patient comfort during a surgical procedure? Wouldn't you want back up measures? Acupuncture may reduce the amount of anesthesia required but to withhold completely can be torturous and unethical

[@cuevarap]

@dlandon2000 By microbes 'didn't exist' I meant 'were not yet identified'. As to everything else I pretty much agree with you.

[@ColAbernathy]

I'll take your word for it. :)

[@zarbins]

Don't

[@blade0817]

I hope you're receiving my messages because for some reason my posts do not show up on my screen. I tried refreshing too but nothin'. :(

[@blade0817]

Our school requires 8 years for the masters (I have done 4 so far, received my B.S.) and then 4 years of masters program that include a MANDATORY two years of clinical practice. After graduation 2 additional years if you want to get the OMD degree. That is 10 years total!

[@blade0817]

I bet a million with you that if I do moxibustion on the points Zhi Yin located on the little toe, there is an 80% chance that a malpositioned fetus will turn to the correct position. I still keep a bet with you on running a current resistance test on the skin and when you get to the acupuncture points (the exact points acupuncturists use) the resistance will suddenly decrease a lot. Can you explain why and what the significance of these points from the western med. point of view?

[@rank101]

Without side effects? Any intervention carries risks of potential side effects: Bruising, dizziness, nausea (haven't you seen people faint after an acu tx?), localized infection at site of insertion. This is not to say that acu is unsafe, but rather to illustrate that there are potential side effects to any intervention--keyword, potential.

[@MedivhAran]

@cuevarap Why would the American Association of Acupuncture be the best source of info? Would you go to tobacco companies for information on smoking causing cancer? The same standard used for other medical remedies should be applied to acupuncture - a significant advantage over placebo

[@cuevarap]

@dlandon2000 I have no problem wiping out the uncomfortable words 'chi' or 'energy' replacing them with 'wireless physiological connections' or 'deep complex reflexes'. But the fact is that acupuncture successfully works beyond a present known placebo/endorphin mechanism. And who has to come up with some western digestible explanation is Science as to effectively clarify what CAUSES the results or cures. How long will that take? I don't know.

[@blade0817]

Mik, I can't reply to your message, you have friends-only private messages enabled, it is blocking me from replying to you.

[@rank101]

Of course Gan Cao harmonizes the formula, but since we know that Chai Hu in compounded formulas (Xiao Yao, Si Ni San) can cause nausea, dizziness, and vomiting in some cases, you modify the quantity initially then titrate based on tolerance (if formula is appropriately indicated), or use a different formula. You won't know this until the pt begins tx. You have missed the point completely, but since you're a student, you get a pass.

[@CrispyClaire]

I wasn't expecting Shermer to be so even-handed with this. I met a woman who had degrees in both western and chinese medicine, and she was great. Even though I'm not crazy about 'chakras' or 'meridians' or whatever, I do believe some alternative medical approaches have something western medicine doesn't, which is that they care for the patient and treat them as an individual rather than as a number or a body part. This is probably the reason alternative medicine is preffered by a lot of peple.

[@GuthriePrentice]

it does take the placebo effect into account, and if you message me, I'll send you the link in a reply. Also, I agree with you, that diseases we know that it cannot treat, they should not claim to treat, as for the answers to your other quesitons, they are answered in the paper I can send you the link for.

[@blade0817]

PentaMaker: The alligator didn't just move right after the treatments, but is completely and PERMANENTLY cured and again it's just one of thousands of vet acupuncture cases from every day. Acupuncture can drop anyone's blood pressure faster than ANY M.D. dreams of using modern meds, and any doctor who have witnessed it can tell you. I work with acupuncturists and M.D.s who investigate acupuncture. Again, no placebo as blood pressure is regulated by the ANS and it is medically proven that ANS can not be regulated willingly at any levels.

[@marcoc1761]

+Blade's Channel where are the multiple randomized control trials and meta analyses that indicate acupuncture lowers BP faster than any medication? In an acute care setting, this may not be true: IV hydralazine, IV metoprolol, IV labetolol all lower BP significantly. but i digress... journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/Fulltext/2013/06000/Acupuncture_Is_Theatrical_Placebo.25.aspx

[@blade0817]

Also, here is the research findings about the Bong Han channels from the Seoul National University of S. Korea. The channels were first discovered in the 60s by Kim Bong-Han and were identified as major two-way communication channels of the body. The Bong-Han channels run right along the acupuncture meridian systems identified by the ancient doctors and still used by acupuncturists today. Here is a short video on it: watch?v=NyahTD7oB8w

[@blade0817]

@Marq72 The Harvard studies never explained - or even looked at the fact - that acupuncture treatment works the same way on babies and animals alike. Placebo in these cases are eliminated for neither group has conscious thoughts of what is happening to them. As I mentioned it in an earlier posts, I just read a case study with a 6 months old baby cured of insomnia, she had a significant improvement right after the first treatment and complete cure after five treatments - also average for adults.

[@rank101]

wow...your damage is truly apparent in your responses. I truly feel sorry for the patients under your care. You really do yourself and the AOM community a huge disservice. Best of luck to you on your endeavors.

[@CribNotes]

Your statement is generally correct. I should clarify my meaning. Given the same affliction to be treated by acupuncture, the qi practitioner has an advantage in benefits gained, by speed of recovery if nothing else.

[@blade0817]

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pain which the women in this video felt, merely a symptom and not the illness itself?" - Absolutely correct. Acupuncture corrects the cause of the problem which neutralizes the symptom. In the case of these two women, the acupuncturist find the root cause of the problem, corrects it and that is why the symptom (or the chronic migraines) disappear. Modern medicine tries to find an explanation acupuncture from their point of view: Chemistry... continued..

[@blade0817]

I have no knowledge of such programs and personally I don't know anyone who went through such. The school I am going for my master's right now requires a BS (or equalent college credits of 190 and above), then another 198 to aquire the master's. After that a two year additional school to receive the MD. All the instructors at our school also have 10-12 years of education. It also offers a 2 year program however this program only offers a certification and not a degree.

[@lokihammerfall7781]

There is a Chinese Shaolin monk who puts a drill on his head and the drill is not able to penetrate his head...(by using chi energy)

[@jean-marccloutier4309]

he needs a new drill bit, oh and push down lol

[@lokihammerfall7781]

Jean-Marc Cloutier I am not joking...it is on the KZbin and you can watch it...it was done by the presence of some Scientists ;)

[@hanyuguo]

Loki Hammerfall Bullshit. Let me use my own drill and my own bit.

[@lokihammerfall7781]

Chino Pisces Don't try to be a smart ass...it is all over the Internet...just search it.

[@lokihammerfall7781]

Chino Pisces You are the most ignorant creature that I've seen for a long time...be stupid,be happy ;)

[@rank101]

Postgrad training means that one has already attained a graduate degree. So Master's in TCM is 3-4yrs of grad training. Bastyr's DAOM is 2 yrs, PCOM's DAOM is 2.5 yrs, so that makes 5 -6.5 yrs. ACAOM on page 2 section1.2.1 states the length of Master's deg follows at least 2 yrs of postsecondary ed-NOT a BA/BS-and states nothing on the length of doctoral programs. Statements supported

[@blade0817]

Rank, another thing I forgot to mention, I read it in one of your earlier posts that you stated acupuncturist are not qualified for bone setting, once again you're wrong. My buddy graduated a couple of years ago and he is a certified bone setter, not only that he works at one of the most well known clinics in the entire country. If acupuncture isn't a legitimate medical field - just because you don't have the means to show it as such - why would this very famous clinic ruin his reputation?

[@blade0817]

Please read my comments from bottom to top... and again, sorry for the long list of them.

[@knightm27]

@TheShadowlin ....and just in case you're still confused champ: cut+paste "patient.co.uk/doctor/Acupuncture.htm." into your browser and look at the evidence and medical papers available here in the uk. check how many say 'bigger trials needed', 'placebo', 'may help', 'more evidence needed' and 'not found to be effective'. mild pains and aches through placebo, maybe...any illnesses....urm no.

[@blade0817]

@vjwileycat - yes, definitely stick with the part that works for you. Acupuncture is only one part of Chinese medicine and if it's herbs that work for you better, use those rather. Generally for best results one should combine acupuncture and herbs but like you mentioned it could be costly and one might not add as much as the other. Also depends on the practitioner, some more skilled in herbs therefore their herb formulas work better. I am glad that you found help from the herbs.

[@blade0817]

... also: "... [by 2007] visits to acupuncturists went up by 3X their 1997 levels from 27.2 visits per 1000 adults to 79.2 visits per 1000 adults. The study attributes this to the progressively more regulated and professionalized CAM practitioner groups and the large numbers of articles in the press... also increased insurance coverage for these therapies" Survey conducted by National Institute of Health

[@rank101]

Given the state of the economy, hospitals will cut the average acupuncturist before they cut a nurse, a PA, or an NP, a PT, or even a PCT. Given the fact that many PT's, OTs and NPs are now studying TCM, they will be the ones of far more value to the hospitals over the single line acupuncturist. Even a Patient Care Tech is far more employable in the hospital over an LAc. I've seen hospitals cut acupuncturist services and keep the PCTs. Wish you the best in your search.

[@GrantZ90]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pain which the women in this video felt, merely a symptom and not the illness itself? I mean getting the pituitary glands and the hypothalamus to produce endorphin isn't exactly miraculous. Cutting your wrist or pinching someone at the right place would have the same effect as sticking needles. I guess I want you to give me confirmatory sources which demonstrate that acupuncture is something more than mere chemistry as you subtly hinted in one of ur comments.

[@rank101]

A chiropractor is NOT an MD. Track to be an MD is 4 yr bs, 4 yr med school, AT LEAST 3 yr residency (initial clinical/specialty training), plus an additional 1+ yrs in a Fellowship (additional sub-specialty training) in order to practice unsupervised. Baseline number of 12 years--could be up to 15 depending on specialty and sub-specialty

[@blade0817]

@NoSz4 Acupuncturing a point Zhiyin (BL67) repositiones breached babies - study has been done all around the world with 75-85% success rates, even JAMA published an article about it. fMRI scans show acupuncturing points traditionally used for eye treatment activates the visual cortex of the brain. Stimulation of a major analgesia point leads to deactivation in the frontal area of the brain. Puncturing Neiguan (PC 6, a heart related point) regulates heart rhythm. Bogus you say?

[@InvisiMan2006]

I need to put this in the proper context. One rescued dog in particular had gone to several vets with severe "malnutrition" (weighing almost HALF of what he should), a bad fungal problem, patchy and peeling skin and walked with his head tilted He did not get any relief from medication, diet changes or creams. IMMEDIATELY (days) after starting homeopathic treatment, his symptoms slowly disappeared. Now, over a year later, he's perfectly normal. Off the homeopathic remedies, he becomes worse.