Deconstructing the Legitimization of Acupuncture: How Science Helped Move Acupuncture to Mainstream

[@debrawehrly9551]

Electrical acupuncture and laser treatment had cured my dog of his paralysis of the hind legs. He had a compressed disc in his spine and the veterinarian told me that he needed surgery. When I learned how much the surgery would cost, I searched and found a veterinarian that practiced integrated veterinary medicine. I brought my dog to her and she performed electrical acupuncture on my dog as well as some laser treatment, and after about four treatments, my dog had regained the use of his hind legs. At first he walked wobbly. but after practice he regained one hundred percent use of his hind legs.

[@Karifi]

How he is now? Because i have a dog in a similar situation

[@johnnyvolvox2932]

Wow so similar to my dogs story. My dog also had compressed discs and I took him to two different vets. Each vet gave me really grim outlooks and they treated with steroids and pain meds. The steroids initially worked to some degree but then the effect started to wear out and he couldn't be on them indefinitely because they cause other problems. I was considering putting him down because he was basically 100% paralyzed. He couldn't move AT ALL not even his neck. The surgery was crazy expensive and all the vets told me the chance of success at his point would be unlikely and there are usually complications as well even if successful. My sister suggested acupuncture which I knew nothing about and was very skeptical. She convinced me to try it and it took about 3 weeks of treatment to see an improvement. But he walked again!! He slowly recovered not to 100% but he was probably around 85% recovered. He had a little bit of a wobble in his walk and sometimes he would stumble but from being completely paralyzed to that was huge. I always highly encourage pet owners to give it a try.

[@brettwessler6149]

Good talk. Thank you. Currently seeing an acupuncturist for Tinnitus, while praying for a miracle.

[@silverfullbuster9177]

Please let me know how it goes

[@mv8908]

How did it go? I'm seeing one for that as well.

[@hinderminder5250]

@@mv8908 these people never answer

[@SaltNBattery]

Where do I start? In thousands of studies, research has shown acupuncture is as effective as POKING A PATIENT WITH TOOTHPICKS ANYWHERE. The University of Michigan used to be a serious academic institution.. Now they're shilling pseudoscience and blatantly lying about he research. It's a placebo and the placebo effect is not analogous to effective. Otherwise drug companies could just sell sugar pills for every illness on the planet and claim they're effective. This is legitimately repulsive that an actual University of Medicine is putting this pathetic video on the internet...

[@Acupunctureclinicsandiegoca]

the problem with some studies using a needle that stimulates but doesn't penetrate, it's still stimulating the point... the needle is not as important as the stimulation this is why acupressure works as well...

[@beyondacupunctureinstitute350]

I appreciate your informative speech. I hope the acupuncturist can treat not only dregs but also timely patients. Thanks.

[@ashtonjones9973]

I noticed a significant decrease of libido associated with my lower back pain. Orientalcurrent is one of the best sites I ever found that well explains instant Chi & sexual energy replenishment as well kidney essence restoration using non-invasive modality on acupoints from Daoism. When Chi flows freely throughout the body without blockages, it fixs up both problems.

[@GreaterGood2024]

dregs??? WTF is dregs?

[@purnimasinha6079]

Thanks so much!! I am getting acupuncture treatment for back and leg pain and I see improvements in my pain level

[@silverfullbuster9177]

How is it now

[@melwhe1004]

Lisa Posthmus Lyons did great by helping UM conquere this training portion of acupuncture and forced many trained practitioners out by new legislation. How much did she get from you because she completely blocked out everyone else?

[@OvenBakedCookie]

That chart in 4:40 is very misleading. Pay great attention to the Y axis; it's FOLD INCREASE, not NUMBER OF. So the number of acupuncture publications could have gone up from 2 to 10 (5 fold) in the 20 years, but this does NOT mean that it has "Outpaced actually the amount of research that has been done in biomedicine". Biomedical research could have gone up from 20000 to 40000, with the research budgets in the billions of US dollars. In summary, that chart shows jack all.

[@retromograph3893]

Ha, you’re right, that chart is so dishonesty presented that one is pretty much forced to dismiss the entire rest of this talk.

[@davidr9876]

Back in the day, I saw videos of people undergoing surgery with acupuncture for pain mitigation. My question is, does Chinese acupuncture work for general health, mental and physical...especially physical.

[@ΣκοτώνωΧαρά]

Believe it will work for sure and it might work

[@kristablossom3542]

Yes it does work for general health and that is what most people who get acupuncture use it for.

[@Acupunctureclinicsandiegoca]

Simple answer yes.

[@Goodie477]

Yes. I do it for myself and family members. I does wonders

[@TheGreatSarastro]

Me as an east asian had tried east asian medicine, and I think acupuncture is the most effective one than other things

[@MrLeeSensei]

the p levels are all less than 0.2. so even lesser than small, meaning real acupuncture is not much better than sham acupuncture, meaning acupuncture is basically placebo effect. it's not statistically significant why does he keep saying that?

[@donnahodges7435]

Actually all that proves is, no matter where you put a needle you are going to elicit a response within the peripheral nervous system. The only real sham would be non insertion, because the nerves are everywhere you are going to get response! Albeit not as an effective treatment as if you were doing a proper treatment.

[@nathanduque302]

Yes but not all nerves are the same organs are innervated differently and certain nerve pathways signal back to the brain differently as well. This study shows it it does matter where and how in fact the needles are put in affect the body pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34646018/@@donnahodges7435

[@957543]

.4-.6 were the p values

[@shawnasabino7958]

Just had my first session on my back eck. Very sore. Is this normal?

[@dalriada]

I’m pretty sure it was science that called acupuncture into question in the first place.

[@eliazruis4761]

If they are at their wits end they are mentally primed. Just because it’s still around does not mean it really works. Religion is still around.

[@snowballeffect7812]

Placebo and nocebo effects are very real, regardless of the context surrounding the effects.

[@Nicholace]

You’re right, and I still think that’s being dismissive of alternate medicine. I’m not religious, I despise how much religion there is in the world. The interesting this is that you don’t have to understand something correctly to know it works and see people benefit from it. Some people pray to god, they talk to him, they have better mental health. Even though it’s fake, scientifically there’s no god, they get benefits from it, and we can say it’s placebo and they are lying to themselves. Yet we know that self soothing and journalistic practices have positive mental health benefits, I would make the argument that someone who says "you need god, talk to god before you go to sleep, it will bring you peace" is tapping into the same mechanisms we’ve proven journaling can give, but credit their religion instead of the boring and complicated neurological mechanics of our brains.

[@snowballeffect7812]

The graphs shown were pretty silly but 21:27 takes the cake. Literally a shotgun spread and they forced a trend line over it. Absolutely hilarious lol. I'm not convinced it's not more than placebo, bit I'd still prescribe it to patients simply because it's so safe and produces a nice placebo effect.

[@daweeb69]

people who tried: worked well! people who never experienced: placebo. kinda funny isn't it? just go and try it for the first time.

[@snowballeffect7812]

@@daweeb69 what's funny is how little placebo and nocebo effects are understood. there's nothing wrong with using the placebo effect, depending on how you feel about lying. what's sad is when people conflate placebo with "real" effect.

[@aprofessionalateverything7585]

@@daweeb69 that's literally what a placebo is. People who try something with no real mechanism of action perceiving benefits because they believe it works. Actual studies on acupuncture found similar results with placebo drugs and poking people with toothpicks at random. It's mysticism from before we knew much about how the human body works.

[@daweeb69]

@@aprofessionalateverything7585 go watch this and call it a placebo, kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYStfaFtdrB6j5I. BTW this is not a single case of a full recovery, there are many out there, just no one promoting it in the west.

[@aprofessionalateverything7585]

@@daweeb69 can I link you some five minute KZbin videos of "exorcisms" curing things and you'll believe it's proof that exorcisms work?

[@Serp_Entine]

I mean at this point I don’t think even the most hardcore skeptics deny that it stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system, right?

[@jasonthurston799]

Too me all I'm really hearing here is that acupuncture might help a patient. Why can't it definitely help a patient like it definitely help the acupuncture provider.

[@borealernadelwald8833]

My problem with traditional medicine is the explanation, or rather the lack of explanation. If you give someone a drug you can explain: ok this bacteria is causing that wich results in this kind of pain, and this medicine is binding to that protein changing its structure here resulting in bacteria-cell-death. But acupuncture is based on the belief of "Qi", and thats more of a philosophy or belief than actual medicine, I mean there is no proof for some "life essence" inside you

[@eugeneliang4470]

Aren’t u alive? And not just a meat machine with no spontaneity

[@eugeneliang4470]

The proof is the amount of people who do acupuncture when they feel ill. It’s also in its long history and progression

[@borealernadelwald8833]

@@eugeneliang4470 firstly thanks for answering! So just that we have the same base-assumption: acupuncture claims to (or does) somehow redirect the Qi-lines, these lines are in some way related to our soul and by that to our sensation of pain. By redirecting the Qi, acupuncture can relief pain. Is that right?

[@Floydandsome]

Exactly How could we know if the acupuncture is actually effective or just a placebo effect?

[@Acupunctureclinicsandiegoca]

No one is talking about qi . It’s an ancient concept that isn’t translatable. We know it works. No matter what your belief is , the bottom line is it works

[@EmpoweredHealersAcademy]

Acupuncture can be very effective when used in conjunction with healing the emotional root cause of pain.

[@kinggrantking]

Literally anything is "effective when used in conjunction with healing the root cause of pain" lol. If you combine a treatment with another that works of course it's going to be effective. Slapping someone in the face 20 times is effective in treating tetanus *when combined with a tetanus booster shot*.

[@David-bg9od]

Damn you just kinda deconstructed the legitimacy of acupuncture with this comment.🤣

[@informedconsumer5293]

Problems do arise around what we hide inside

[@FastTracktoHealth]

yes it actually works for most people, I see results in my patients on a daily basis

[@ZACHANDJACKSZACHSMAFIA]

Was one of their doctors saying how this worked?

[@lisforlucas2453]

Why not try sham acupuncture points with a few patients, without telling them. Might your friendly, caring nature and the time you take to listen to your patients along with the white coat and the procedural processes not hold the answer?

[@chadamitecheckoutredpillpl2641]

@@lisforlucas2453 if you admit that the placebo effect is real you admit that mind has power over matter and in that case you can start to look at alternative medicine more critically.

[@jeffhiera]

Can it be used to effectively treat numbness in the toes or pain and numbness in the foot? The only symptoms I have after my laminectomy & microdiscectomy is pain and numbness in my left big toe and the palm of the left foot under all the toes. Sometimes feels like an electrical shock. Please advise. Thanks!

[@FastTracktoHealth]

definitely worth trying@@jeffhiera

[@continuouslylearning6152]

eastern medicine IS the main stream and allopathic is the real quackery

[@Rebelmoon777]

Right?! Modern western medicine is barely 2000 years old. Chinese medicine dates back at least 5000 years.

[@osjos2822]

I don’t think I want to be using the same treatments that they used 5,000 years ago considering their quality of life

[@price724]

Wow

[@phudlow]

The widespread acceptance of acupuncture, after its failure to show effectiveness in all studies, and its basis on make believe things like Qi, is truly proof that the world is getting stupider.

[@Acupunctureclinicsandiegoca]

Don’t know where you got that studies show it doesn’t work. The fact you assume science as we know it has the ability to measure something like acupuncture, qi , god , soul etc shows you’re an idiot. Bottom line acupuncture works think you guys are stuck on words like qi. Maybe not qi then find out why it works instead of bashing a 2000 year old concept that is the basis for Chinese martial and healing arts and the way they look at nature and it relationships to one another . Also if you never tried it then your words are just empty. Your world must be boring if you need to have science validation for everything. Take the time to actually study it instead of having an uniformed opinion!

[@Rebelmoon777]

It's effectiveness was proven way before western medicine and their "study" requirements even existed. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it isn't real. The widespread acceptance will continue. It's being used effectively in VA's and hospitals across the country, in pain clinics, recovery rooms and ED's. It's YOUR uneducated response that makes YOU look silly.

[@nathanduque302]

I know this is a 1yr old comment but ill respond anyway... There has been more research and research that has not been included in here that show that it is more than just placebo. Here is an interesting study to get you started: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34646018/ About your confusion and frustration with the concept of Qi... Qi will probably not ever be something that can be measured. The ancient Chinese had used what we might call today "conceptual metaphors" to explain away certain phenomena about the human body. Qi is just a conceptual metaphor to describe a concept about the body and life. Today this maybe overlayed on to modern science and physiology as movement within the lymphatic system, the vascular system as in the movement of blood, signaling within the nervous system and "ascending" and "descending" movements of digestion (i.e. acid reflux akin to "rebellious Qi" that moves upward, or spleen qi that ascends nutritive qi/energy upward for mental energy akin to how glucose (energy) is transported via the bloodstream to the brain after/during digestion of food). Qi may be viewed as synonymous to "energy" (whatever the type electrical, chemical, electromagnetic, mechanical ...kinetic or potential ). However, these concepts we have in science are "exact" things, Qi does not follow exactness, does not follow precision... and that is because at the time these concepts of Chinese medicine were conceived, exactness and precision could not be afforded, obviously. It's quite amazing that the ancient Chinese had created such a sophisticated system to be able to treat disease. Now we are starting to understand how these treatments actually work and, more importantly, in what scenarios they work best in. There are non responders and responders in pharmaceutical science/when developing new pharmaceutical drugs. For non responders, it does not mean the drug/chemical created does not work but rather that drug might not be suited for the individual due to their type of disease pathology/disease complexity, or maybe because genetic variability or because other biochemical factors, etc. So all that we can do is wait for more studies and better studies to come out. There is something going on here, if you look into the studies. To just blatantly just shoot something down just because you dont understand it, not having all information spoon fed to you, and not having ever tried it... is foolish. There is more research to be done though...

[@irwanharzky6062]

Acupuncture just a bleed valve.. Reducing over tension on certain area which cause pain.. Also neddle absorb over oxigen on blood.. Conclussion # acupuncture is not treat desease but only just pain releasing......

[@seancontin7278]

You mean just because science can't prove means it's not real? LOL! For some, intelligence is their sanctuary. Intelligence and science is good but I hope they open up to faith as well.

[@lisforlucas2453]

I'm yet to watch this video but I took an interest in your comment. Whilst I agree with the jist of your opening sentence, I'd like to ask you a question. I put it to you that I have faith, a very strong belief indeed, there is a toy truck about the size of a football in orbit around Mars. This toy is not your average toy. Its so much more indeed. It is a powerful toy truck. Before sleep, I close my eyes and make truck sounds before asking it to help me and my family with our challenges in life. When I am sick, I ask the little truck to make me well. Last week, I had a really bad cold...... The little truck healed me - which was funny, cause I didn't even have to ask it to........ It must have known I was sick from all that distance away........ How do I know about this truck? I was told about it by my father. He learnt about it from his father. It has been passed down in my family for so many generations I've lost count. I do know that many hundreds of years ago my ancestor, a great healer and prophet named Tonka, learned of this truck.. Tonka had a vision during which the toy truck revealed itself to him and told him how it loved Tonka and his family and how it would protect all those that were to be descendants of Tonka.It told Tonka to pass on the wisdom of its existence, and he did Unfortunately, the truck is too small, too far away and moving too quickly for any of our telescopes either on earth or in space to see. There is, in fact, nothing I can reference that can provide any form of evidence for the truck, all I have is my strong convictions. No scientist will ever tell me they can prove my there isn't a toy truck as I describe circling Mars. Do you believe in the little toy truck? Did the toy truck heal me?

[@seancontin7278]

@@lisforlucas2453 I think I understand the point you're making. If there is a God why do we never see a God? I still have many questions too. It isn't easy to explain but I have sought to reason not only with intellect but I try to be open to the possibility of another form of communication; some would call it "spiritual" but I am also open to identifying it as communication from "another dimension" or even on some "quantum level" . Science is revealing some fascinating things in quantum physics and at the LHC. Personally, as a result of my experiences I am more inclined to believe that just because we cannot perceive this so called God in the usual way we experience everyday events that does not mean "it" isn't present among us. Take care.

[@ΣκοτώνωΧαρά]

... Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that science can't prove yet or for a while and I do indeed have 'faith' in tried and tested science that can give solid proof for their reasonings. Then, there's this, which I honestly don't find any reason to find this to be more than a placebo. And I don't do my faith on non sense. Actually not fully non sense, it works kinda , just not in the way you'd think.

[@dougieh9676]

Complete snake oil. 🙄

[@Postghost]

It's a placebo, through and through. It's literally based on "Qi", a fictional concept. Srsly, How TF can a modern, western medical practitioner, sit there with a straight face and recommend something that has no demonstrable mechanic for how it actually works? Or even has any real, tangible demonstration THAT it _actually_ even works in the first place? The only way I could see this as even remotely feasible, is as a last-ditch technique to "treat" ...a chronic hypochondriac.

[@thebiggestpicture3230]

Smoke some DMT and report back!

[@Postghost]

@@thebiggestpicture3230 So DMT swaps the polar dispositional perception of something otherwise axiomatic? How's that work? This is like saying that the shoddy, one star rated mechanic down the rowd suddenly becomes an artisan engineer, as long as you're drunk enough... like, 🤷‍♂️ idc how faded you are, it doesnt magically make a square peg fit into a round hole. Sorry, grandma... it doesn't matter how you perceive, or how much your pastor tries to convince you... but marijuana DOES NOT make you put babies in microwaves.

[@thebiggestpicture3230]

@@Postghost "So DMT swaps the polar dispositional perception of something otherwise axiomatic?" YES, you bet it does. And that's at the beginning of the trip: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jn7VhIZve995l5I As McKenna said, "Remember how you laughed when this possibility was raised. And a moment will come that will wipe the smile right off your face."

[@Postghost]

@@thebiggestpicture3230 So you're trying to actually tell me that taking DMT will, somehow, make acupuncture NOT a scam? Guess I shoulve added "changes yoiur dispositional perception WHILE it physically changes reality." Basically I'm just trying to say that it doesnt matter how strong you make your hallucinogen, left is still left and right is still right, regardless of how you pecieve it.. My point is taking drugs will not suddenly make acupuncture legit.

[@thebiggestpicture3230]

@@Postghost It will make you see how you don't need to have a clear picture of its physical mechanisms of action to understand that it can work, without having to even study it or TCM in general. (You could also try it yourself and likely be surprised like e.g. these guys: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6q1qIBmhtaNedU ). It was in reply to your statement that "The only way I could see this as even remotely feasible...". But in addition to obliterating everything you ever recall believing to be axiomatic about reality by using your own spirit molecule/dream inducer/frequency neuromodulator/hyperspace reality shifter/ontological transformer (or you can just call it a "drug" even if it's produced in the center of your brain) and having the most incredible experience you could ever have in your life, also research the work of Peter Russell, Rupert Sheldrake, Bruce Lipton, Alan Watts, Terence McKenna, John Hagelin, Tom Campbell, Dan Winter... to name some of the top human pioneers. They are highly complementary tools to become post-scientistic, to leave behind the imprisoning assumptions you picked up along the way. I was there not long ago.

[@guitaristAustin]

20:17 Aaaand nope, just nope. Anecdotal evidence for opioid therapy? Stop it, acupuncture is BS.

[@headtripindustries-aminor5657]

Medication* ka'cha'va + baileys almande = ?! cannabis + nirdosh = ?!

[@jatinbangar4371]

You can't prove acupuncture Is wrong and "qi" does not exist nor can you prove it. If it works then we have to find better means to research and study harder on the topic. It's like God, you can't prove it nor disprove it

[@retromograph3893]

It's not up to a sceptic to prove something doesn't exist, it's up to the believer to provide evidence that it does exist. If the believer can't provide the evidence, then obviously it's not real.

[@eliazruis4761]

Medicine:Acupuncture as Astronomy:Astrology

[@salvandorum]

No evidence....

[@nathanduque302]

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34646018/ and I got some more if ya interested

[@DVMarks_]

Bla bla bla. There's more than meets the eye.

[@lisforlucas2453]

Not much. Unfortuantely.

[@DVMarks_]

You'll see it yourself. : )

[@stevelacroix2626]

maybe stupidity ;)

[@16960734]

Acupuntcture is not real and you know what? Fibromyalgia is iffy too

[@nathanduque302]

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34646018/ got some more studies too, like a lot of these, we create concepts to explain certain phenomena ... these concepts need to be refined over time. Science is a tool we use to do this. Fibromyalgia is an example of that, its a term/title for physiological phenomena that we have some observation of. IBS is similar as disease pathology varies from person to person. Depression is another one as it is a heterogeneous condition. shooting something down like that without hardly any evidence or understanding is also just as foolish as ignorantly believing in something that is truly sham.