Therapist Explains the Psychology of MLM's | Are You Being Manipulated?

[@beyondallmeasure]

When I was in a cult, the leadership was okay with their women being in MLM s because according to the cult leadership, the ideologies of the MLM supported the ideologies of the cult. So when I got out, I was like, "Huh, this makes sense." There's a lot of cultic behaviors in MLMs and those behaviors normalized the cultic behaviors.

[@MickeyAtkins]

Whooaaaaa that’s so wild! Thank you for sharing that because it’s the perfect real life example of the overlap between the two!!

[@CorwinFound]

I think it's even more than just matching behaviors, it's trained matching mindset. Don't trust outsiders, lack of success is only a sign of lack of faith, the real secrets are deeper and you need to trust the process, rigid hierarchies are there for your protection. These types of attitudes set off warning bells in many people. But if you've shut off those alarms in one area, it's likely easy to extend that lack of wariness to other areas. Just my take on it.

[@freckledandred]

When I was in a cult, they used MLMs as a front to reach out and recruit people to the cult

[@ReeCrowsFray]

I’ve witnessed this myself. It’s very very common for women in cults (even if not believed to be in one) to be heavily involved nb MLMs because it still keeps the women at home but can be pretty lucrative. They tend to be ones that get into them very early, sometimes. I was indirectly a part of a cult…my parents and they “leader’s” wife did multiple pyramid schemes and a variety of “charity” fundraisers. Had thousands of dollars worth of very fresh food dropped at their front door every morning, new clothes, vehicles, money etc. it was insane and incredibly traumatizing. I still have nightmares of that time in my life and a lot of it is completely missing. Just remember the lesser memories like that. But the man is now in prison in Georgia for the rest of his life. Thanks to his oldest kids. I still can’t understand how any of his kids have made it out as well as they have. They’re wonderful people who’ve always known the grotesque nature of their father and still choose happiness and support for others. I hope you’re doing well @Sarah Forbes because people like you have more wisdom and magic to give this world 💜💜💜💜🌻🌻🌻🌻

[@sydneyh8717]

​@@CorwinFoundi was raised conservatively religious and as a young adult fell prey to many a grift... as a kid I remember telling myself that I needed to stop trusting my own brain, so your take resonates

[@wrenmassey6876]

It's so weird bc mlms are always pitched as being an easy side hustle and as soon as you get in, it's full grindset and if you fail it's because you didn't treat it as a full time job

[@camiliatron300]

This

[@tyrannosaurustits7083]

exactly, in order to succeed you have to treat it like a cult and integrate yourself into the cult

[@Danielle-wg6zc]

Public libraries are an amazing third space and need everyone's support right now, please use your local libraries!

[@transientdaydreams]

I second this as a library worker! A lot of people don't realize that public libraries have way more than just books: we offer things like internet access, wi-fi hotspots, museum pass rentals, 3D printing, sound equipment use, conference rooms, etc. Not to mention all the activities we host like craft parties, kids' and teens' activities, and even D&D sessions! My coworkers and I "joke" that we're the last public indoor space where people can go and hang out without having to spend money, but it's totally true.

[@sasamafrass]

Yes I was going to say the same thing

[@BlackQueenA1825]

@@transientdaydreams i work at a library as well and my coworkers and I also talk about how we are the last free space for the public.

[@The_Distractinator]

I went to get my library card today and the librarian’s eyes lit up when I told him I was there for a library card. Its so sad that we might be at risk of losing libraries if people don’t continue using them

[@CatBarefield]

Yes!! I wish mine was open longer hours 😅

[@BFK.333]

The “you’re just not trying hard enough” gaslighting in MLM’s is so reminiscent of evangelical gaslighting though! “You prayed and God didn’t heal your mom? Were you REALLY praying hard to God…?” Intriguing that the demographic overlaps so much as well… 🤔

[@AlexandraUtschig]

I haven't watched the full video yet, so I don't know if it was mentioned, but MLMs are extremely common in Utah in the Mormon circles. They are targeted hard.

[@peachxtaehyung]

yeah i am religious and its so frustrating so many mlms use religious manipulation!

[@nikkio.9990]

This was 100% my personal experience in the the training system i was in that sold Amway. I wasn't really wanting to join but at the time I was an evenangelical Christian and everybody in this organization was also a Christian, so I thought I could trust them. they were definitely on the charismatic side which I was not and they definitely overlapped all this talk about healing and when people wanted to quit and were not be super excited about selling soap, makeup, and vitamins anymore they were told that they would be quitting on their "ministry." Tons of spiritual manipulation and abuse happened.

[@BFK.333]

@@nikkio.9990 I never sold for any MLM’s but the one time I remember being sold them, it was a disingenuous transaction. Which is sort of fitting for MLM’s AND the church for me now, lol. She had told me she got this really tasty energy drink, and said she would get me a case of it. Nowhere in the convo was money discussed, and we were friends, so I thought she just wanted to give me it for some reason 🤷🏼‍♀️. She shows up next week at church and says “here you go, that’ll be $35.99” and I was too embarrassed that I had misunderstood, so I just paid her for them, even though I was a broke college kid at the time. Funny, now I realize that was likely an intentional tactic to sell more product, regardless of the how. (Side note, those drinks were, of course, NASTY. Lololol)

[@katherineheasley6196]

I was raised Evangelical, and when I heard about "The Secret" and "manifesting," all I could think was that it's the secular equivalent of the prosperity gospel. I don't think it's any coincidence that so many MLMs lean heavily into manifesting.

[@amygreen9662]

I lost over $1,000 by stocking up on Mary Kay inventory. I was recruited right after I lost my job. Ugh! Still hurts 20 years later.

[@dylpickled]

Example of a third space I experienced as an adult: there was this coffee shop that did open mics where you could do any type of performance, stay as long as you’d like, and they didn’t enforce patrons to pay for any goods/services. It was such a great space to just exist, unfortunately it closed down a few years ago.

[@jannettb7930]

That's awesome. There's a bakery in my town that has a space like that, minus open mics. At the front there's a case with baked goods, sandwiches and salads where you can get food and drinks, but most of the space is a variety of places to get together. There's some larger tables, small 2 person tables, couches, indoor and outdoor seating. You don't have to buy anything and no one tells you you've been there too long. They have games and puzzles you can grab to do, or you can bring games or have a study group. It's pretty cool.

[@shanzerb2927]

I think the Elks or Freemasons have dues but its a similar idea. Bowling leagues or sewing circles. We were better at 3rd space in the 50s.

[@JacquieOhhh]

@@shanzerb2927 those are cultish patriarchal groups with the same types of thinking, with the exception of the quilting circles…

[@shanzerb2927]

@@JacquieOhhh Whelp I'll never look at the local bowling alley the same way

[@jenellelynn4551]

This reminds me of a plant nursery not too far from me that feels more like a botanical garden, has a koi pond, farm to fork cafe, and outdoor seating around the pond and plants. You can go and just walk around, sit at the tables and you're not forced to buy anything to use the seating. I used to go there to do homework or just walk around if I needed to relax. I would occasionally buy something small from the cafe just to support a small business but it was nice to be able to go and just hang out without feeling like I had to buy something

[@zorgnaxstash]

Hi Mickey! ❤ Fellow therapist here. I actually did my Masters thesis on why MLMs are harmful from a mental health standpoint. I also have a strong interest in working with folks who’ve escaped these groups. All of this is to say that I really appreciate you speaking out about this. I adore your content. Thank you!!!

[@5fingerjack]

Hey Zorgnax, I'm an MSW / therapist and would really be interested in reading your thesis! Is there a way I could?

[@MamfaJane]

I just recently left an MLM and got bullied straight away for having an opinion on the products. It’s called The Body Shop at home, based in UK.

[@zorgnaxstash]

@@5fingerjack You got it! :) mlmtruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/HCO-MLM-Thesis.pdf

[@MelissaMayhem99]

​@Two Finger Jack I'm also super curious!

[@LlamaLlamaMamaJamaac]

I would LOVE to read that!!

[@torijeri]

a youtuber i watched called MLMs “corporate cults” and i like that descriptor. also she was very adament of the fact that a lot of the people are actually victims of the manipulation & were targetted bcus of their financial status or hardships.

[@pjihae]

I have also heard "cults of capitalism", which I find quite accurate.

[@TheSightOfTheStars]

The number of weight loss MLMs that play off of people's body image, wellness culture, and reinforce fatphobia is absolutely WILD. And also, dangerous to people's physical health is well! Supplements and the "rapid weight loss" promises are so so risky! 😢

[@trishamarie]

It seems like almost all of them prey on women who want to lose weight, and fast. I haven’t ever purchased anything from one of those MLMs, but I went to a few parties because a few friends fell for it. They didn’t last long either. The biggest one was ItWorks. I didn’t fall for it because a wrap isn’t going to help you lose weight, and at the time, I didn’t have any extra weight to lose. If I did, I probably would have fallen for one of their supplements.

[@CorwinFound]

A friend of my sister was involved in Monet decades ago. As part of her sales strategy she started a "Biggest Loser" club. Every week 20+ women would meet in a hall, weigh themselves publicly, have the results announced, and discuss strategies on how to make bigger losses the next week. And of course always a table with skin care care products and samples and info on how to become a consultant. Looking back it was sooooo messed up.

[@MeghanGraceDIY]

I had a friend post a fake “pregnancy” announcement yesterday (April fools day) but the joke was it was a food baby and Optavia can take care of that for you! Gahhhhhhhh so problematic on so many levels

[@phrenicForensic]

The idea that MLMs create a situation where increased rejection is inevitable (becoming basically a door-to-door salesman) and then uses that to make their members feel more isolated from anyone outside the group is so sinister. It's just like Mormon missionaries!

[@toriwheelis4084]

"Are you happy?" Is the question I was asked when I was in an abusive relationship that helped plant the seed for me to leave. I've since used it many times, successfully, in the setting of DV, as have many others who I've spoken to. I've also been successful using that question in several other high control settings, to similar success. The success isn't immediate. But it with surprising success does plant the seed in their mind. I cannot recommend that question enough. It signals that you care, and it breaks through their defenses that they're programmed to have. Because I guarantee you nobody else is asking them that, especially not in the high control situation they're in. So please, take that one throwaway suggestion by Mickey and use the absolute shit out of it. It opens up conversations, plants seeds, and generally is very successful in my experience. May it also serve you well.

[@nikkio.9990]

As an Amway survivor 2006-2010 thank you for addressing this. I had zero interest in joining my husband actually joined first and I finally started attending meetings with him, they are very good at what they do We were love bombed and then elevated and praised because we were doing "good things" and it hooked me in. After I was finally brave enough to step away it took 8 years to decompress and detangle and process what had happened to me. I'm also very grateful for Steven Hassan's BITE model and I have shared it with my children. I have told them, "whatever you do in life before you join any organization religious or otherwise please measure it against the BITE model"

[@laurtheonly4980]

I’m so glad you made sure to say the business model is predatory, but the individual people don’t have to be. It’s hard to help people after calling them names. 👏👏👏

[@Metroid250]

Most of the huns' behaviours come from a place of desperation and hope, which I can fully empathize. These schemes specifically attack vulnerable populations (e.g. Those financially struggling, isolated like SAH moms and military wives, and the chronically ill) for this reason. I start to lose sympathy when some of the huns either play willful ignorance or malicious scamming

[@delphinedelphinedelphine]

Genetically Modified Skeptic has an amazing video with his partner analyzing a chat between 2 high-ranking MLM people who are now pivoting to say things like, "this life isn't for everyone" and "the haters are the ones who sucked at this." Super interesting and really sad how they're adding new tactics to their manipulative repertoire.

[@gabiluch87]

A friend took me to a private meaning and it was an MLM recruitment meeting. The love bombing was so intense, it made very uncomfortable. They give you gifts, they applaude everything all the time, they pump you up like you are about to run a marathon, the smileeees, they get you in their inside jokes or create inside jokes with you very fast. It's so bad. I didn't know what an MLM was at the time, but it all felt icky so I didn't get in. It was very hard to get them off me, they still try from time to time.

[@DLF-xq9lq]

Sometimes people in MLMs can go in circles when you try to ask them about the money they made. One woman wanted me and a friend to get into Pampered Chef. Because I knew that consultants had to buy the dishes and other equipment they sold, I asked if she actually made money after subtracting what she purchased. She went into a long story about how clever it was that she could subtract from her taxes the gas she used to drive to clients' homes along with the products she purchased so she wasn't making a profit on paper. The problem was that she also wasn't making a profit off paper as far as I could tell either. So, she and I went in circles as to whether she actually made a profit or not. Finally, she told me that she didn't want to make profits because of taxes so why even go to the trouble of selling Pampered Chef?

[@user-mv5zt8qd9l]

I can't speak for the American system, but where I live, business expenses are still expenses and not somehow "cancelled out" or made free by getting tax exemption from them. If you have to misrepresent your tax relief in an attempt to justify your "business," I think it's time to admit that you've been conned.

[@h0llasamantha]

i did not expect mickey joining the anti mlm community this year but i’m HERE for it. these “business models” are predatory. the FTC states 99% of people will make no money or will lose money. you have better chances making money at a casino.

[@MattZen88]

99% of people also have nothing to show for, after a 40 year career at a traditional company. Am I wrong? Maybe it's 99.5%

[@Starla.Mariee]

So happy more creators are making content against MLM companies! The anti MLM movement is making head way!

[@dylpickled]

Bob’s burgers has an essential oils MLM episode, I think it’s a good example of unintentional manipulation (not sure if manipulation is always intentional but I couldn’t find a better word)

[@clairelist1060]

I would love a breakdown of AA / anon groups and how cultish they are too! As a recovering addict, these groups are very predatory and I feel like no one really talks about how they prey on people already at their lowest in order to sell religion. Great channel, love your vids!

[@lacey892]

not to mention these programs are also pushed for court referral which is so problematic... they make you label yourself an addict and say you can't reach sobriety without some "higher power" 🙄

[@jessicakingery8447]

So agree with you. I feel like when I'm made to do na meetings most of the people there only care about what kind of stuff you can get or buy from them. It always makes me feel more like using.(I've been clean for 10yrs now) the meeting leaders are the ones here in my state who are pushing the religion part. Everyone else is definitely not there to get clean or stay clean. Noone talks about how uncomfortable meetings are and how at some of the hardest times I was trying to stay clean it wouldn't have happened if I had gone to a meeting. But most drs make you go if you have a past of being addicted to meds/street stuff. I was put on hard rx pain killers very young also mental illness meds(diagnosed at 12yo which they don't diagnose kids with bipolar anymore) but I was put on alot of addictive meds not knowing they were addictive. But over my 10yrs of getting and staying clean I've been made to do alot of na/aa meetings. I always leave feeling worse. Not a fan of them as a sober person.

[@ChristopherSadlowski]

​@@lacey892 that whole thing pisses me off. Instead of getting science based treatment for addiction, the court shunts people off into these "programs" to just get them out of their hair. Do they even work? I'm going to see if I can't find any research that Alcoholics Anonymous or any of the other ones actually have evidence they work. I can't remember which one it was, but there was an "anon" group that was a front for Scientology or some other weird group! The US really needs to get its shit together already and stop wasting time and money with...well everything really. It's all falling apart.

[@mementomori7446]

Ohh yes! I would love a video on that! I lost my brother to religion this exact way. He essentially traded one addiction for another imo.

[@erinsabattis8623]

I've not been able to seek treatment for my issues because as a Satanist, I don't feel welcome. The praying was really hard to listen to when I attended my first (and last) meeting. I WANT HELP. I DONT WANT TO BE "SAVED" BY ANYBODY.

[@elizabethwillis885]

The Schitt’s Creek episode featuring an MLM was so funny and so spot on. I highly recommend.

[@Stitchers_Whimsy]

Third spec to me is a knitting, crocheting, crafting circle. I’m a knitter/crocheter and having a space for those like me to get together and talk and be a crafter is precious. And not tied to gender either.

[@Stitchers_Whimsy]

Third space. Not sure where spec came from lmao!

[@grimmgoosegoose216]

Absolutely! Crafting together with people is a wonderful way to build a community

[@hannaheslinger822]

I would like to recommend the book "Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism" by Amanda Montell. Montell is a linguist who breaks down manipulative language used in cults, MLMs and the like.

[@kywhitehead_]

Never clicked on a video so fast. I was in the middle of watching tv and stopped it so I could started this video. The psychology of MLM girlies is...fascinating

[@joanna0988]

So excited to listen to this! I've actually stopped trying to make mom friends because they were just interested in talking to me so they could sell me stuff. Then of course if I said no they were really dismissive and rude.

[@phoebesulistio6830]

Listening to that girl cry and speak up with her meek little voice about how her family was so proud of her... I got so mad after whoever that was just went "well *I'm* proud of you, and that's just as good lmao" like no the fuck it ain't! You are not this child's parent! I hope she is okay...

[@illuminautical72]

I have been in a culty sports thing AND an MLM, and I STILL didn’t recognize an MLM pitch until like 45 min into a “job interview.” The line about not being “that dumb” is so true

[@lucasmyers7048]

As someone who was raised in a high-demand religion, I feel like the psychological manipulation tactics are eerily similar. Cults, MLMs, and “high demand religions” (which are, in my opinion, just cults made mainstream) operate in very similar ways, and take advantage of psychological vulnerabilities that are continually present within humanity, and thus make people susceptible to them, no matter where or who they are. Thank you for speaking to this and shedding light on the ways in which these groups can be dangerous. Your work is so helpful and valuable - especially to those of us who are in the process of deconstructing the things such groups have drilled into our minds.

[@lexihopes]

The one that I don't see often mentioned in discussions about these sorts of things is gangs. And I get it. People don't always want to have sympathy for criminals, especially if they have been victims themselves. But they often work exactly the same way: preying on people who are socially and/or financially vulnerable. Starting with hey we'll be your group you can count on use and little things that don't seem like a big deal. And whether it's a gang or a cult or an MLM it just makes me so sad and mad. It really ruins lives.

[@lucasmyers7048]

@@lexihopes That’s so sad. I’ve no experience with gangs am there operation, so I can’t speak to that, but it’s unsurprising, as these behaviors seem to be such universally effective manipulation and coercion tactics. I think it definitely would be helpful if people were to also draw those connections to gang tactics in public ways. At the end of the day, it seems all of these groups prey on our innate human need for belonging.

[@lexihopes]

@@lucasmyers7048 Yeah, I've heard of other ways of ending up in gangs in movies and books (particularly "it seems inevitable or necessary because most of the neighborhood is involved" though to an extent that's still a "you're one of us" thing, and perhaps parallels people born into cults) but everyone I've known that's been in a gang or similar group (I write a lot of people in prison) and everyone I've ever heard speak about joining neonazis or a gang or other extremist group it's worked basically like this. I really wish people would talk more about why people do bad things, whether organized crime or individual crime or general abusive behaviors, without worrying about "making excuses" (we can acknowledge their responsibility for it at the same time) or "stigmatizing other people with those traits" (sure most people with mental health disorders aren't criminals, but people in prison are disproportionately more likely to have mental health issues for a number of reasons, and sometimes those are a factor in the crime). Because if we can understand we may not be able to eliminate bad things but we may be able to put better systems in place that reduce them. But the US in particular would have to care about social support systems more and get over their tough on crime mentality first. I suspect very few people are "just assholes." There's almost always something underneath. Whether the person recognizes it and if they do whether they want to fix it and if they do whether they have the support they need to do so without giving up, because it's hard, is another matter. Sorry this is too long. As you can see it's an issue I have a lot of feelings about. :P

[@quantumphysics314]

Silly side note: I love Stardew Valley and I always repair the Community Center. I'm replaying again and I'm glad you are having fun with it. ❤

[@ppe9388]

Bummed out about capitalism and weaponized incompetence? What you need is LEGGINGS 💀

[@asana_awakening]

I think that even some of these people who think they “made a profit” are not financially literate and don’t understand profit vs. revenue. I say this as someone who had this experience when I was in an MLM in my 20’s- so it’s not to say they aren’t smart, just that A LOT of people are not financially literate unfortunately and MLMS prey on that.

[@frankfart2986]

Public Librarys often want to be a third space.

[@MickeyAtkins]

Oooh this is a great example!!

[@amygreen9662]

My town also has great parks and trails that attract all ages.

[@jcfreak2007]

So, Mickey does an amazing job of acknowledging and honoring trigger warnings on her channel here but just in case she doesn't give one for this topic, as someone who was raised by a Narcissist who was involved in 5-10 MLMs in my lifetime, there are a lot of similarities between abusive upbringings and being in an MLM so take care of yourselves when listening to this video folks! I saw the title of this video and I was so excited that you are covering this topic because for some reason this has become one of my hot button issues in society recently is how predatory these MLMs really are and how Narcissistic they can be in nature.

[@kyle1910]

The fact that these have been legal and still is, in 2023, is an obvious blight, but also isn't a bug of the system. It's a feature.

[@gothboschincarnate3931]

It's not illegal because the government protects it. Even though they shouldn't.

[@finnilyenough]

I maxed my credit card trying to make an insurance mlm work. It wrecked my credit. I lost my appartment. It really ruined my life for so long it took so long to get back on my feet

[@ishotthemoon30]

Was it FFL?

[@finnilyenough]

@@ishotthemoon30 family heritage

[@KellyDVance]

I was very briefly sucked into Mary Kay. Luckily I only lost around $200, because I woke up real quick. But now, I am paranoid when random women complement me on one of my features. The woman who recruited me started by telling me how lovely my skin was and started talking to me about how I could keep it looking that way. Turns out it was simply a combination of being in my early/mid twenties and genetics. Skin care had (and still has) little to do with it for me. But it has made me super paranoid about love bombing.

[@TiredKnitter]

In Seattle we have a bookstore called Third Place Books. It's a book store, but the idea is that anyone can be there, you don't have to spend money, you can just hang out and read. The one in Lake Forest Park has a whole cafeteria space for people to hang out, too. I worked on my high school senior project three a lot because as a teenager it was a safe place to be outside the house.

[@jadelinny]

I immediately thought of the TPB in Lake Forest Park too. I did an interview in their commons in college, and went to the farmers market when I lived closer.

[@hannahp730]

It's true that the setup is SO predatorial and manipulative, especially to vulnerable ppl. This helped me understand my mom a bit more, who is currently still in a religious cult-like group (that I was raised in) and was very involved in an MLM. I still struggle with a lot of frustration/anger towards her, because she's never actually talked to me about the harmfulness of either the religion or the mlm, and just sort of avoids deconstructing any of it

[@leekspinner]

I love the metaphor of a pyramid actually being a funnel, it encapsulates this horrid phenomenon. My grandma was in one. Her wounded soul wanted to turn her life around, compensate for the poverty she grew up in. She wanted to break free from the trauma of an abusive marriage by finding a loving community of fellow women. Thank god we moved countries and she had to drop it.

[@kikipocalypse]

The Cult of Greed has so many forms 😢

[@JackTheVulture]

My unrealistic late capitalism fantasy is a stardew valley style community center in my town

[@Dither87]

Another good place I learned about MLMs was from a former distributor of LulaRoe, Roberta Blevins. She's a great Anti-MLM advocate and has her own podcast called "Life After MLM". The movement is growing and there are other advocates I'll recommend, such as Not the Good Girl, Erin Bies, CC Suarez, Savannah Marie, and Always Marco.

[@PokyLilWolfPup]

Also Mack Attack and Kiki Chanel !! 💜

[@sydneypeck2970]

Hi Mickey, I love ALL your videos and I love your content and takes... If you ever are interested, I'd love a video on the beauty influencers and their affect on mental health for viewers. I keep finding myself wanting to "buy" a solution to my own looks (very similar to mlm) and I feel like these influencers not only are fat phobic but it's GOT to be manipulated and photoshopped, it's very schemey and hard to be immune to. Again love your work!!!

[@MelissaMayhem99]

I second this!

[@sparrowhawk_lastname]

44:20 It's JUST like the cult people who go and knock on doors!! Being rejected so much teaches them to dislike and distrust people outside the cult/MLM, while also teaching that those within are the only ones who support and care them. It's the exact same psychological effect, whether that's intended or not.

[@nafeesahtynetta]

19:52 omg!! I cannot believe that he used that example. So exploitative!

[@Myslexia]

I know the Bellesa sponsorship was a few videos ago, but I just wanted to let you know I saved $75 on my order just now from using your link! I got an email saying I got a $30 gift card (which I was thrilled with!) and then when it came time to check out the gift card actually went all the way up to $75! I literally just got my order for half price and I'm super excited 😆 Thank you so much and I hope you continue to do sponsorships with Bellesa! 💜

[@Sarah-re7cg]

Mlms and cults have always been so interesting to me (specifically, the psychological aspects) because of how literally anyone can be sucked into them. You don’t have to be emotionally vulnerable or going through a rough spot in life, you don’t have to be (for lack of a better word) “stupid.” A common thread I’ve noticed, if god forbid you or anyone you know might be in one or getting into one is the isolation factor. They’re like a type of abusive romantic relationship.

[@northshoregirl8173]

Wow, so interesting! As you were describing the shaming tactics, I realize that I hear the same shit about using LinkedIn from "experts" who will help me connect to find my dream job, etc. They made me feel a little lazy, like I was giving up too quickly. THANK YOU.

[@ceeceeoduin]

This video couldn’t have crossed my feed on a better day, when I’m downing Hershey’s Easter egg candies, putting around my house in my PJs, and not having “bOtH fEEt FiRmLy pLaNtEd iN the COMMITMENT™️” that was the health-related MLM I was once a part of. Seriously, big time Fuq That. I’ve been wanting to return to some aspects of the *physically* healthier version of myself I was during that time in my life (mentally I was quite unwell, but that’s a different story which your video explains), and doubting I’d be able to unless I followed the guidelines I used to follow in that MLM… I know it’s a lie, though. I know I can get myself physically back to where I was, WITHOUT the product I was sold. Thank you for sharing your personal experience, and for the evidence-based education (as always!).

[@daenerys02]

I signed up for Amway, thankfully I realized it was sketchy when I went to my first speech and only lost the inscription fee money. What made me realize it was a horrible thing was that the speaker was insisting we sold this idea to EVERYONE in our lives. I didn't want to use my loved ones to make money and possibly piss them off by being a dick. Work and money can't be a factor in every personal relationship. It struck me as a manipulative and quite sad point of view. Also I don't agree with the constant selling of the idea of being a millionare and striving for more and more money all the time. As an 18 year old at the time I just wanted income to be able to study. I want money because I need some to live, not to drive a BMW. The capitalist minset that everyone should want to be rich is sad and damaging

[@northshoregirl8173]

OMG, I just realized as I watch you a 2nd time, talking about shared trauma. I waited tables & bartended for 15 years when I lived in a tourist town. Same kind of trauma bond.

[@jannettb7930]

We have a farmers' market twice a week, one section is for food, fruits and vegetables, farm fresh eggs and cheeses, baked goods, and the other half used to be cool maker stuff. It used to be people who made jewelry, pottery, paintings, cat towers, whatever. Now that section is being taken over by MLMs, and it's not always clear that's what it is. There's the obvious, like the Luluroe tent of ugly leggings. But then there's nail wraps, she'll do them for you and you get to talking and feel like you made a friend. There's a booth with homemade toothpaste and bug repellent, but it's a gateway to an essential oil MLM. Same with pet CBD products. They're not advertised like an MLM, you're just out talking to people and getting some goodies and wow, you made friends with the lady at that booth. She's so cool, she's concerned about toxins in toothpastes and cleaning products too, and she'll give you the insider discount to get the oils to make these things yourself. You feel like you made a friend. It's so predatory, I've seen so many people get sucked in like this because they're on the lookout for the 'hey, hun!' DMs but not looking out for the cool friend they made at the market

[@lmsmith015]

Most of my KZbin time is spent on anti-MLM channels, so it was a pleasant surprise to see this video from you pop up on my homepage!! 👏🙌

[@Maddie-qu3kp]

I was once waiting on a mother and her son and she called me over to say she loved my energy and asked if I'd be interested in coming for an interview at her company. I thought I was getting poached for a better job! The place I worked was horribly toxic and I was underpaid/ treated like shit, so I jumped at the chance. The interview 😊turned out to be an hour long presentation on the mlm they were working for and a lot of it focused on how it "wasn't a pyramid scheme". I'm glad I was at least aware enough to know not to pursue their offer despite my shitty circumstances.

[@mordaciousfilms]

Good message about needing spaces to congregate... that's a lot of why I'm so depressed, I honestly just need friends and we NEED each other. We need belonging. But I step out of the house, and it's all just transient space, people coming and going, stores and roads... nowhere to BE. And if you're broke, even less options?? That's NOT okay.

[@lewildwest]

my mom did so many MLMs lol we were always poor as heck

[@christineluongo7512]

LONG VIDEO. I LOVE THIS FOR ME

[@MickeyAtkins]

Sometimes I can’t help myself 😂🤷🏻‍♀️

[@magnoliaskogen]

14:13 and again at 16:19 (and other places but you get the point) - To make your videos accessible to blind and low vision people as well as other people who are only listening and cannot see what's on the screen, you need to make all info in the videos auditory and not have some parts that only use visuals/text on screen. I commented on this before on another video. I hope you will try to change this in the future. I really appreciate your content and I just want it to be accessible to as many people as possible. Also it's important to give TW/CWs verbally so people who can't see or aren't watching the screen are warned about the upcoming content.

[@jadelinny]

These are good points.

[@UniquaDaBackyardigan]

I've listened to this whole video. I was able to understand the content without looking at the video. You don't have to absorb EVERYTHING in the video.

[@gremily2399]

hope the week is treating you well mickey 🌸

[@KayDazzle90]

I went to a Pure Romance party/pitch and got pretty friendly w the presenter, when it came time to recruit after I had ordered a few things I (w a bottle of wine as courage) told her "I'm not super into the pyramid schemes, excuse me, multi-level marketing, but I will call you for parties in the future because YOU bring the fun, not Pure Romace, just don't pitch to me again please." Although she never did try to recruit me again I did enable by getting her 3 more parties, but before she would arrive I would educate the group on MLMs to avoid anyone getting sucked in. Once she jumped to Monet is when I knew she was in too deep, at least she got in towards the top of the funnel

[@JenniB31210]

I’m so excited for this video! I watch lots of anti-MLM content on KZbin and had thought how cool it’d be if you and one of those creators did a collab or even if you alone discussed MLMs from a therapist standpoint!

[@jcfreak2007]

Me too! Who do you watch?! I like JulieJo, Erin Blies, JustMarco, Savanna Marie, and Hannah Alonzo personally. It's crazy how committed to the mlm program some people are...

[@JenniB31210]

@@jcfreak2007 I watch Julie Jo, Erin Bies, Savannah Marie, Always Marco, Hannah Alonzo, Isabella Lanter, Deanna Mims, CC Suarez.. and there’s probably some I’m missing in there..

[@cynamentl]

These are all great creators, love AlwaysMarco's streams. I'm just gonna throw in Briannah Jewels too since I don't see her yet, she also does really great antiMLM content from a scientific perspective.

[@JenniB31210]

@@cynamentl oh yes I love Briannah Jewel! I knew I was missing someone 🤦🏻‍♀️😅

[@PokyLilWolfPup]

I wanted to recommend Kiki Chanel and Mack Attack since both are my favorite anti MLMers but I haven’t seen them mentioned in the comments yet 💜

[@shaye21]

The intro was so spooky!! Thanks for talking about this 🙏🏼

[@carriepinkduck]

Park districts are a great example of third space. My kids do activities at ours. We do pay but the fees are so nominal compared to other places.

[@s4m920]

One of my college friends got recruited by Amway a few months ago. She almost never talks about it but she's recently started trying to sell stuff to my other classmates and I've witnessed a successful attempt at recruiting. And to top it all off, she's also started skipping classes to attend their conferences. I've never confronted her on the issue, because that would be of no use and she would get defensive, but I wish there was more reliable and available information in my language to educate people on these kinds of scams. Unfortunately MLMs are legal in Italy and the average person thinks they're a fairly legit, albeit quirky, way to make money.

[@mewnboy]

I’m so fucking ready for this video, my special interest and my fave creator❤

[@heatherhayes2387]

Ugh I’ve been in MLMs and part of religious groups and this is the first time I’ve realized there are SO many similarities in how they operate. Yikes. Thank you for this video! So glad I’m not in either of those worlds anymore 😳

[@alyssaprzywara]

Ive been watching anti-MLM youtubers for years and Savannah Marie made a whole deep dive examining MLM culture through the BITE model. I had never heard of the BITE mofel before so it was very informative.

[@1773clar]

Girl I love you and the subjects that you pick! You’re so intelligent and hilarious!

[@je1073]

Ooh! I've been watching a ton of anti-MLM content lately -- so excited to see your take!

[@CycleBreakerDragon]

JIMINY CRICKET😂 I was watching with headphones on and then that creepy thumps music started and I panicked thinking my house was being hovered over by choppers 😂 14:20

[@sandralantau7395]

I love these longer videos, Mickey. You focus on a particular aspect (the psychological side) of these important topics.

[@Felisquoreda]

Libraries offer a great third space. For everyone.

[@high-bi-password]

Dude Mickey the massive TW was on the screen for a total of like less than 1 second and the sound, the sudden BUMBUMBUMBUMBUMBUM around 14:10 really freaked me out at first bc I’m wearing headphones. I understand the intention behind the faster editing but I still don’t think that was remotely enough time to have that huge TW up there for somebody to consider whether or not to engage with that content.

[@JaneMartignago]

I feel sorry that so many have been treated in this way and it is not cool at all. I have been involved in an mlm and have not come across this at all. I am rather shocked at these tactics and would never even think of treating people in this way. I joined because I loved the product and it has really helped my health issues. I know most of you will think that I am completely delusional and have been manipulated, however, I know this is not the case. Some of the points raised are really important and I am glad you have shared them. I also wanted you to know that your video is actually advertising online businesses that are not mlm but could be seen as predatory as well.

[@nonamys]

Yes please, more ADHD content! I felt like I had finally figured my brain out and gotten things under control... and then the Adderall shortage hits. Love the confirmation that my meds actually work, but now I'm left feeling lazy and hopeless and unmotivated again. It helps knowing it's not a "personal flaw" now, but it's still a bigger burden than when properly medicated. So, any tips for handling symptoms (especially executive dysfunction!) when medication is not available would be especially appreciated!

[@adiksaff]

Me: *stretches after playing Stardew Valley for a couple of hours "Time for a break! Maybe I'll watch Mickey Atkins" 23:43 - Oh... Lol XD Love that you included this though!

[@Hannah-yf2yr]

I'm studying third spaces right now and my faves are Libraries! It's so rare to have places where everyone is welcome and access is free and you can go there and just be. Community centres are also a great example but they tend to be less ubiquitous and in general the public is less aware of them and they tend to trust libraries more. There's a lot of interesting work being done intergrating social workers into libraries becsuse of the unique position they hold in our communities as trusted neutral spaces where people go to seek information about things they need help with. There is nothing more frustrating to me than seeing people who need support and people who can provide that support and the two groups just not finding each other. I'm forever trying to find ways to link the two, and one of those ways is educating healthcare professionals (including mental health and allied health professionals) about the free services that exist in their local area that are wonderful but woefully underadvertised and underutilised

[@lovepuunk]

It’s surprising how many people get recruited when they are vulnerable. In most mlms or cults I’ve seen, the people were recruited shortly after a financial crisis, divorce, breakup, etc. It really goes to show how much these mlms capitilise on people’s emotional state.

[@kialuckychip1234]

May I just say your hair looks amazing today!

[@joanna0988]

Yes it's so pretty and bright 😍

[@Tink00]

That training video was horrifying omg

[@taylorrae3947]

I was raised by a narcissist and MLMs still got me through the whole "money solves your problems" thing. The clip of that guy saying people who don't have the time and money are the best to recruit #creepy #manipulation. I was uncomfrtable in the interactions with my upline consistently, but I couldn't quite see the emotional manipulation because they frame it as an independent position while glorifying how they can make you the money that will solve your problems. I'm really glad I kept pushing that all recruiter's "markets" are ridiculous. We harrass our families for money (most people i know can barely survive on their income) and then we move on to their friends. They're trying to steal from the market they're creating from me, and I only make commission based on sales either through me or my downline. This is not a job, this is a scam convincing you to scam your own family.

[@RoseWillowstone]

Thank you for talking about NLP! I have encountered the term before but I couldn't really wrap my head around what it actually entails. Now I know and it makes sense why I see it a lot in an MLM context.

[@whereisconstance]

Mickey’s beautiful hair and eloquence on these subjects never cease to amaze me 💗

[@amb.iant_yt]

My moms famously bad principal apparently wore nothing but luluroe and sold them at her school. I always wondered why my mom refused to buy me patterned leggings (when I was in ms, now I’m in college) and now I know

[@matthewlucas4990]

I traveled across town in Milwaukee in 2009 (over an hour on the bus) to go to a "job interview" promising a high starting wage and no experience necessary. It took me five minutes of the GROUP "interview" for me to realize it was a scam. (An MLM, though i hadn't heard that term at the time..) I raised my hand and said "I'm sorry, this is not what I was expected, can I leave?" And no joke, like 5 people got up and followed me out. We were all sitting their thinking it, but no one wanted to be the first to say it.

[@aceshigh5157]

i really liked this video, i also look forward to the identity video next week. these are personal interests of mine.

[@lucidthomas4402]

I'm actually using the part of this video about emotional coercion in a paper I'm writing about leadership, so thank you!

[@JulieAndersonvideos]

Thank you so much for this. As a survivor and advocate, thank you.

[@musicenthusiast96]

there are also organizations using mental health/unaliving preventions as a front for their MLM schemes and it is heinous. i especially hate how they target vulnerable people (people who are unhappy with their current jobs/pay) and i was in a position where i was almost manipulated to take up expensive courses to hone my interest in music.. so annoying

[@Gazzaxxo]

Thank you so much for this! I guy I knew actually contacted me and tried to sell me stuff, he used a lot of the techniques you mentioned and invited me along to listen to one of their in person seasons loll I caught on in one minute what it was all about, but it was really sad to see a bunch of people pinching themselves to their friends and recruits aka people who have already been converted as a way of feeling they are ‘succeeding’. One thing I’ve noticed recently that you didn’t mention which is even more dangerous because there is no product to invest in, is MLMs in the form of coaches and gurus. They also use the lifestyle tactic, making six figures in ninety days and becoming your own boss babe. All it is people that become coaches over night with no experience that coach other people to become coaches by buying their six month program, or a coaching course to be certified etc. I’m looking at you gabby bernstein, jay shetty and a bunch of others.. The reason I bring this up is because there is no upfront costs of products, and they really target vulnerable people who struggle to find work

[@jillfoley3584]

Mickey, this is excellent content. Soooo helpful! I’m a therapist and feel blessed to find this/you😊

[@sophrito]

Mickeyyyyyyyyyy, I've been trying to remember Kiki Chanel's name for a minute. I remember watching the video you clipped. She's so good at those MLM videos, so thank you!

[@devsie11915]

I know this is a very late comment, but I was in an MLM and I never felt comfortable with the way they pushed and pushed for me to target my family members INCESSANTLY. I quit after a couple of months and the harassment I received to try to get me to come back was intense. I lost hundreds of dollars. I was roped in because I was a young, single mom to a disabled child, living with my mother and trying to get myself on my feet. Then someone came along with photos of a brand new Escalade and stories of how she got to spend all this time with her kids and still buy herself a new car and she had the answer for me… right? I’m so glad that I got out quickly. I felt able to say goodbye to the money I invested because I had a support system. I can only imagine how hard it is for people who have sunken thousands of dollars and months of their time and effort into it with constant reassurances that the payoff is coming soon.

[@ginkgobilobatree]

Frankly, capitalism requires businesses to exploit labor, and most of us are in denial about being exploited, period.

[@dopex89]

In my country its really common for younger people to gather in parks and have a drink bought from a nearby shop. Its similar to the Spanish botellon, but it's usually just with beer. It's pretty chill and you can see a small park packed with people at 2 am in the summer.

[@shwetanavani480]

I actually knew someone who was in an MLM. I really liked her but I had to stop talking to her. I felt so uncomfortable cause I felt she was always trying to get me to participate. And I wasn't close enough with her to have a heart to heart with her. I just felt really bad for her. And I saw online she went back to working a regular job.

[@lexihopes]

Yeah I had a coworker I'm pretty sure was in an MLM. I didn't feel close enough to her to be comfortable interfering, but I always felt a little bad for that, even if it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

[@angiep2229]

I've been tempted by some of these in the past, before I fully understood, but I never actually did it because I'm just not extremely social and did not feel I'd be good at it. And now I'm so glad I never did it. I bought a lipstick from a Lipsense person once at a farmer's market. I didn't know it was an MLM at first, I thought I was just buying a lipstick at a farmer's market. But this lady was messaging me on facebook, friending me, sending message after message for reviews and trying to recruit me, for months after buying this one, single, lipstick. Also, LipSense burned my lips. I put it on, realized it was burning, was with friends at the time who told me, "Take it off, take it off now, if it's burning take it off fast and throw it away." And if you look up reviews, you'll see the claim that you need to just endure the burning and it will get better, or some garbage like that. And people who've really hurt themselves believing that garbage. PLEASE do not wear cosmetics that burn your skin.

[@MissieLotus]

I would love it if you did a revamp of this comparing how modern cult works and pyramid schemes showing the same methods like you're doing here. I grew up in the Mormon church and so many Mormon women were doing Avon and Mary Kay and melaleuca and the essential oil pyramid and there was another one oh yeah Amway. There's also a candle and crafty one. Seriously you could blow the roof off every cult just by comparing it to these pyramid schemes.

[@eleonorasassi3989]

Okay I lost it (hope) at the sing that read "you will suck at selling [...] until you decide not ti suck anymore" 💀😂

[@CelesteAnise]

I was sucked into many mlm due to my sister doing some and my ex his aunt. I now banned mlm from my life. I still get approached a lot by them. It is mostly amway out here near Seattle. It is weird how vague they are. I need to make a video on this