Milestone Leveling is the ONLY Way to Level in D&D

[@TheDungeonCoach]

How do YOU use Milestone Experience? 🐲 Alkander’s Almanac: bit.ly/AlkandersAlmanac

[@aqacefan]

Milestone at the relevant story beats has come to be my preferred method. I got pretty disillusioned with XP and CR when it nearly killed my daughter's character (fortunately I rolled a 20 on one of her Death Saves). And congrats on scoring the publishing upgrade on AAA! The justifiable delay in the production schedule just means we'll be getting our hard copies in time for the Holiday season 😁

[@draggo69]

Fun Fact: Most people say Milestones when in fact they mean " *Level Advancement without XP* " (DMG P 261). The main difference is that XP is still a thing when using Milestones which you can use to better estimate when to level up your group. I love to use actual Milestones in the way the Dungeonmasters Guide actually describes it (DMG P 261). By *awarding xp* whenever characters complete significant milestones. This mixed with the normal way of combat based XP is the perfect mix imho. Especially because the players actually feel the progress they make towards the next level.

[@WileyBoxx]

agreed

[@JackOfHearts42]

This is so true! Thank for you pointing it out. I find it uterly rediculous when people have difficulty in the "bookkeeping" or the very simple act of adding numbers together. Maybe if they were like 5 years old...

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Well put

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

@@JackOfHearts42 I like the math but I think for people who don’t there should be a designated dice n math guy. Probably your rules lawyer.

[@draggo69]

@@JackOfHearts42 To be honest I'm not a huge math guy myself. The fact that everyone shares the same amount of XP on my table + my VTT adding it all together really makes it easy to use though.,

[@PapaSmerf008]

This video about starting at level one reminds me that my just wrapped campaign started at level 0. Everyone started with a combat feat, their race and background... But no one had any class features yet. I added a couple of weapon proficiencies to backgrounds so they could temporarily be useful in combat. Thought it could be an interesting inspiration for you & others.

[@romantheblack-cat]

Thats really cool

[@Turtlpwr]

I'm probably going to steal this for a future game

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I really want to do a Dungeon Crawl Classics style level 0 grinder sometime.

[@jgr7487]

with the Survivor "Classes" from VRGtR, you can make Lv.0 PCs even better.

[@TOOLandNINfan]

I prefer XP for a few reasons: 1) I can reward players individually for roleplaying, attendance, creativity, engagement, etc. 2) I like how it functions better with things like raise dead. 3) I can still throw XP at the party when they hit a milestone; it's not mutually exclusive. 4) I run 3.5, and item creation feats use XP as a resource; if I just dock a level for using one, they'll always be behind, whereas daily XP they can catch up and only be behind a few sessions.

[@pwykersotz]

Yeah, 3.5 is really built for specific XP gains. But 5E doesn't use negative levels for resurrections anymore. So depending on your version that might not be an issue.

[@bleddynwolf8463]

yeah, if you're using a different system, gonna be different considerations

[@scottburns4458]

I award XP at my table for combat, treasure, avoiding combat, RP, creative skill and ability use, and a range of other things It works for us

[@xapimaze]

It sounds like your table is a lot of fun.

[@scottburns4458]

@@xapimaze Thank you We certainly have fun

[@JackOfHearts42]

XP is my preferred. Can;t wait for the next video!

[@TheDungeonCoach]

How do YOU level up in YOUR games? 🐲 Alkander’s Almanac: bit.ly/AlkandersAlmanac

[@scottnufer3632]

I've actually had my players level up in the middle of a fight before. We are a very time-based group (with most of us, including a Master's program student, being in the Mountain time zone, and a brother in Eastern), and we ended the session in the middle of a fight, with a massive cliffhanger of the war cleric aasimar going down, the dragonborn fighter going down, and crap hitting the fan. (I was never worried for them, as they had wiped out most of the massive swarm style fight already, but they certainly were worried. Their bard and rogue were pretty much untouched and mopping the floor otherwise). The aasimar had been working on getting a better connection to her deva, and had been given the current mission by said deva. In between sessions on discord, I had the aasimar have a vision while unconscious of the deva basically telling her that it would be big, bad news if the cultists could sacrifice her to bring back the evil deity they serve, and that he would do what he could, but they would all have to pay for it. They leveled up, but current HP stayed the same, currently used spell slots were still used, etc, until their next long rest, but they were able to get some new abilities and some higher level spells to turn the tide of the battle. They also all gained a level of (DC coach) exhaustion as soon as the fight lulled (the two who went down had 2 levels), as their bodies and spirits were pushed to the limit. After they finished this epic dungeon (including a magical poison/acid cloud that was exceptionally awful for the PCs and raised the dead until hit once) and rested, they also got a bonus level up perk related to their player journey. It was incredibly rewarding for all of them, and for me as a DM. I will definitely look to incorporate that kind of thematic leveling in the future, particularly as it takes great advantage of the otherwise potentially choppy feel of our time restraints.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I like XP as it let's you fine tune incentives. I have done Milestone a couple of times and it just doesn't feel great. You can put XP on gold, on social success, on discovery, on player goals, on monsters, on whatever you want to reward your players for doing. I just don't like the feeling of "yeah, this feels like time to level up"...

[@przemysawjozwiak144]

Players at my table do not want track theirs xp and prefer to level up at the end of the sessions to think what to take on the next level so I decide to estimate their xp, write it down to my knowledge and when they reach certain amount prepare the mailstone on the next session to end it with a stamp and say "Congrats. You all level up"

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

I started getting the " do we level up?" questions coming second session after hitting lvl 3. "Not quite yet" was my response, Next session, same question. "Almost there" Session after that, They levelled up to 4, instantly after I said that "Do we level all the way to 5?" Milestone is great.. XP however they will see the progress atleast and stop asking for level ups all the time. And yes.. the session after they hit lvl 4 they asked if they leveled to 5. Had to actually sit down and have a chat with them about it.

[@stratahawk_1]

I feel you on this. It was the same for one of my parties. They finish one session and asked if they leveled up even though all they did was downtime activities. The chat with them about it didn't go great for that group but it went much better with another group.

[@xapimaze]

Do you give your players enough information? Why do they have to ask all the time to know the status of things?

[@loosinit_mc]

Milestone is fantastic for plot heavy games as it gives near total control of power progression to the Dm. However for sandbox and even "water slide" style games, XP function as another recourse and reward to tempt players with. If given creatively for role-playing or other behaviors it will encourage those behaviors, and is a meta reward/temptation for making bargains with extraplanar beings. If the DM is willing, it can even be spent as a recourse for feats above and beyond what a player should be capable of. TLDR:Milestone is good, but xp can be a much more fun recourse to play with

[@bobthegamingtaco6073]

My problem is that exp is a meta-game currency. The leveling system is a promise that your players will suddenly be able to do more things if they collect enough exp, which can really break immersion every time they glance at the exp tracker and think "oh man, 2 more fights until I unlock more Smites!" Or "If I can kill steal instead of saving my friend, I can get more Ki Points!" Granted, there are ways to fix this, but it's a number that serves to draw the players out of the story at the end of each combat and each session by design. Milestones offer less of that interruption because there's no fixed point at which it can happen. That being said, a combat heavy game where you spend exp to unlock class features and regular feats individually could be an interesting video-gamey style that has merit. Even bringing it into the game by having experience be physical items, like manifestations of divine power, that get traded in town for special training. But, that's just my thoughts on it.

[@AgentForest]

I do like the idea of each player having one milestone level unique to them so that they're encouraged to explore their own personal journeys, and the other party members can help them grow. Like, if the rogue plans a huge heist that wasn't part of the main story, let them, and give the rogue a milestone level for it when it's over. Just make sure your party knows in advance that each PC will have one personal milestone level that can be unlocked through RP and story beats. If there was some big goal a character has, make a side-quest for it.

[@mattalford3862]

Always enjoy your insight. I personally don't use milestones, but I could see possibly using it if I wanted to really pace a campaign. Otherwise, I'm fine with characters leveling up any time... whenever their XP total dictates. I've even learned to be ok with leveling and getting new abilities when one combat spans two sessions (like BBEG lair with multiple big fights). We describe it as the characters finally try out new abilities they've been practicing in downtime and while traveling.

[@colbydotcom]

Well played, sir. You get the milestone of a thumbs up!

[@torgimustheiceman9422]

Milestone levelling is the best way to level your characters IMO. However I believe perk levelling should happen outside of the levelling process so they will feel their characters grow outside of levelling. For example a Bard in my group loved to write Ballads about their adventures, after doing this a number of times and rolling really well they got the perk to narrate powerful Ballads… (allows him to get advantage on the creation roll and he can create a Ballard in half the time) seemed like a basic perk that didn’t mean much, however last session they wanted to help a lord escape pursuit. So he spends the entire night crafting an epic Ballad about the lord’s sacrifice in the salvation of the people and his heroic death. The bard also left out their involvement in the destruction/salvation of the town. The next day he performs the Ballad in the local taverns and the refugee campsites, it was a massive hit. It was awesome and I loved every moment of it. Their antagonists bought it hook line and sinker and the lord is now free and roaming the countryside and the heroes were able to escape without notice. This perk was given outside of the levelling process. I also only allow a feat/multi class to happen if they can provide a narrative reason behind them. If they cannot, they can still select it but don’t get the abilities until after something happens to allow the character to learn/imbue/discover the ability

[@scottnufer3632]

(ballads...;) I like this a lot, and I think this is what is missing in a lot of arguments about XP being able to reward players better for what they do with their PCs. It's as if they think that we can't level people at different times for story reasons, and then they really miss the idea of the chance to award perks, not just level ups! I feel like they almost have to go hand in hand. If you want a great story experience, for me it's about character growth in the story, not arbitrary numbers dictating the only times when you get exact rewards spelled out in the book.

[@torgimustheiceman9422]

@@scottnufer3632 cheers, my wife have would killed me if she had seen that spelling :p

[@teeseeuu]

Milestone is usually more formulaic. Much of what is considered Milestone is level by Fiat. A true milestone system should expose the conditions to the players.

[@stratahawk_1]

I personally use whatever method is right for my group. There were groups that did well with one method and others where I probably should have used the other method. Of course, I don't give XP just for combat. I give XP for social and exploration to not encourage murderhobo-ing and I kinda don't use the CR system and just give flat XP depending on the encounter. (ie this social encounter was medium difficulty so it's worth medium difficulty XP) It's really on what works best for my group and that varies between groups

[@JERKIMBALL1]

Running a XP to level campaign right now - I like being able to give out XP for experiences - yes that’s XP for experience, makes sense right? And that way I get to give XP for story beats that aren’t battles, like talking their way through a bad situation and avoiding combat, finding the information, achieve a goal- but it has for sure some extra math, planning around it working to have them about the right power level with a prewritten module, and the random encounters they get into can make that progress a bit too quickly

[@colbydotcom]

Just jumping in to the premiere. Looking forward this hot take. 😂

[@123thebigdog]

Just bought your book. I love your ideas. Keep up the great work.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

I mentioned this in the poll and whenever xp vs milestone gets brought up. I prefer the way XP are handed out in Cypher System games over both the common methods used in D&D. In Cypher XP are basically both milestones the player can spend to level up, and inspiration tokens. You get XP for moving the plot forward or discovering something important to the game world. The main XP generator though is player rolls. Roll a nat 1 and get two XP. 1 to keep and one to give to another player. Unless you want to give back both XP and prevent the complication the DM throws at you thanks to that nat 1. I tie XP to high Int, investigation, knowledge, and search rolls. Roll above 25 on an Int or Wis info gathering or exploration check and get a couple XP. Roll high enough to end or prevent a combat encounter without bloodshed and you'll get more XP than you've been getting for run of the mill murder hoboing. If there are NPC hostages each one returned alive nets the group at least 1 XP. Does this mean the high int and Wis classes will level faster? Yeah, so during rests I let players with extra XP call for a scene with another party member. The barbarian is lagging behind so the rogue challenges him to a thrown weapons contest. Knives vs axes. No matter who wins, the rogue can give as many XP as he wants to the barb and then get that many inspiration tokens from me.

[@WolfHreda]

I wasn't sure about milestone until I was getting ready to run Lost Mine of Phandelver for my kids. They recommend leveling up to 2nd level right after the goblin ambush, which gives them all more health and core abilities for tackling the hideout. Milestone is now my preferred method.

[@cassnt]

Milestone pro: convenient, the DM can easily control the scope and pacing of the adventure Milestone con: not fun for the players, in my experience the players feel like they have no agency on it and it's an arbitrary decision of the DM (just like at 13:56 "I, the DM, bump the level up because I want them to face this threat at this moment) and can break immersion for a lot of people. It might not feel deserved but "granted by the mercy of the DM"

[@The_Crimson_Witch]

That to me sounds more like the way the DM handles the milestones. I as a DM have had great success with using milestones, as I reward players with levels after completing specific goals (it may be linked to the overarching plot or completing character goals) rather than when I wanted them to level up to meet a certain threat level. I recently tried out using XP, including handing out XP for roleplaying and peaceful resolutions of encounters, and found that my players very quickly become underleveled (I'm running them through COS). 1-3 was fine, but to get them to level 4 in time not to TPK I had to straight up just tell them to level up. At which point I'm basically already doing milestone anyway XD

[@scottnufer3632]

Sooo...you're saying that an arbitrary number (given by the DM for combat and social encounters in a relatively arbitrary way or from an arbitrary guide) is more fun to track and more immersive than leveling them up when it makes sense in the story for their characters to level up in game? I agree with the previous comment here, that sounds like a DM communication issue, just like every other comment on this video talking about XP preference. If you as a DM have good communication and thereby develop good immersion for your players, they will actually enjoy either method. But the milestone leveling makes more sense from a story perspective, and therefore from an immersion perspective, if done well. This is especially true when factoring in bonus perks whenever they achieve something worthy of it. But as I said, if you communicate it well, they will enjoy either method. XP is a good start for people who may have players who don't have a good rapport with the DM and are the back seat children constantly crying out "Are we there yet?" But I don't buy the immersion or agency argument, as if handing out XP isn't an arbitrary decision in the first place. All other things being equal. If you have developed good rapport from a communication perspective with your players and are a good story teller, milestone is better for immersion.

[@cassnt]

@@scottnufer3632 To your first (sarcastic) question: unironically... yes. There are 2 reasons for that, first is that tracking XP gives an immediate feedback of progress to the players that feels as a "deserved reward" even if behind the DM screen that's ultimately arbitrary too so it's not their nature that's different but the player's perception. Rationally the players do understand it too but ime even if they agreed to it themselves most of the players feel less satisfied when using milestone.

[@andrewcamacho5258]

This could also reward roleplay for individual players who push into their backstory or character progression based on involvement. Maybe the fighter needs to train and practice their new skills before they are able to level up where the druid leveled up from forming a new connection in nature

[@airdragon11studios]

Woot!!! Definitely want to try lvl 1-3 as a session starter before main quest. See options get to know each other and more! Love AAA! And can't waif to see your other vids on leveling up! Keep being awesome coach!!

[@olivierRH]

Milestone is my go to method, I like the flexibility it gives as a DM and how it rewards story moments instead of only combat Also, I was wondering if you were going to make a breakdown/theory on the new D&D movie trailer?

[@NakamiJun]

I pretty much only use Milestone experience... Heck... I have an entire campaign where they slowly build over a 'year' of play at an 'Arcane Academy'. To finish the first year took 21 3 hour sessions. But they didn't reach 'level 1' until just before the Final for the year. Having slowly gained aspects of their class & subclass over the in game school year. xD

[@NakamiJun]

By the way, I also use 'growing perks' where a perk can grow or mutate as your character develops. Rather than ending up with 50 perks for players to remember they can grow to be more powerful, have new features, or morph completely into something different.

[@xapimaze]

That is way to slow for me, personally, but it's hard to know without being at your table. Is the story at your table defined/controlled by you, or can your players make a real difference?

[@NakamiJun]

@@xapimaze The players get to decide a lot of events. I have a sketch of overarching plot for each year and everything else the players get a hand in. And they knew what it was like going in. D&D isn't great for telling a school story, but I'd like to think I'm doing better than WotC at nailing the feel of going to a magic school.

[@xapimaze]

@@NakamiJun Kudos to you for involving your players. The part that matters is that you're all having fun. Enjoy!

[@Doodle1776]

I'll still stick to XP. More so since I reward XP to PCs based on what they might do as an individual. I also use it to prevent murder hoboing. And I don't reward PCs for not showing up to games. You get experience by coming and doing things, there are no participation trophies in what I run. So yeah, I have PCs that can be a level below other PCs and not only is it not an issue, it is a reward system in itself.

[@williamhoover6902]

Easy doesn’t equate to rewarding for the players. I have tried both. No doubt from a DM perspective it is easier. However it diminishes the reward for players at the conclusion of encounters and role play moments. I have returned to xp.

[@romantheblack-cat]

My character is the first person to make guns in our world do i would be making a lot of bullets so i asked if i can get expertise at some point. Now we are implementing an entire system of how good and what i can make in terms of guns. So flintlocks to muskets and so on based on an xp leveling system that gives me access to more parts of gun history to make and use

[@RevDavidHuber]

You are incorrect - either method is perfectly fine, with pros and cons to both. If milestone works for your group, then go for it. If keeping track of xp works for your group, then go for it. I prefer experience because then I can award characters for exceptional play, super creativity, taking risks, being proactive, creative or useful banter with NPCs, smart exploring, solving puzzles, etc., and sometimes those characters level up before the other ones. But just because I prefer the granularity of it doesn't mean it's the "right" way. Please, let's stop such silly arguing, and accept that some people like it one way, some like it a different way, some probably found a third path, and it's all good. It's like arguing over guitar strings or whether a truck or a car is better.

[@scottnufer3632]

I think you missed the point of the video. First of all, he made a sweeping assumption, said he would base this video off of that sweeping assumption, and that he would make a counterpoint in another video (likely using many of the arguments he sees in these threads to support arguments he was already thinking of). Then he asked how we all like to level up to generate discussion. While yes, some of the comments are exceptionally petty, trying to bicker and degrade (this is the internet...), the actual discussion points generated are why he made the video. Case in point: I like how you use experience as a reward system to push some characters along their growth, potentially faster than others. I would agree that that is great. However, I would point out that he specifically used an instance in this video where he did the same from a milestone perspective, leveling up the PC before the group because it made sense to that character's growth. Also, earlier I gleaned from the DC the idea of bonus level up perks, and I use these (essentially mini-feats) when characters are progressing in their growth in a way that would merit those perks. It allows for greater flexibility than even giving out additional XP. I love that idea, and so have my players (I even stole a portion another class' ability to customize a character according to the direction the player was taking the character without the need for multiclassing, and it was the most rewarding experience we'd had playing). What do you think about that? Do you ever consider things like feats or mini feats or nabbing from other class abilities to homebrew for rewards of PC growth? And how would you/do you incorporate that in your XP distribution?

[@jgr7487]

the Milestone rule works really well with arc-based canpains. end the arc: level up. if something important happens in the middle, like a small boss fight was too hard, reward the party with the choice of a feat related to what they went through. Feats are in a weird position in 5E, so you can give it out in weird moments.

[@Plasmagon99]

Milestone: Ignore side quests. XP: Murder hobo everything. Milestone XP: main story grants XP, side quest grant loot, now pick how long you want to stay at your current level.

[@Gokkee]

Yup I agree 👍 Xp always sounded weird to me since you can mess up easily and can't throw whatever suits you at the players. Started using milestone by accident since it sounded better than xp to me xD Keep up the great work and can't wait for the book👌 P.s prefer to start at lvl 3 and take ut slower in the beginning from there and give them gear or feats rather than lvls.

[@captaindudeman3613]

I do the same pretty much. Start at lvl 3 especially if these are returning players. Otherwise it can feel very limited waiting for things to come online and not having a lot of turn options. If its the first time they play , they get the level 1 treatment as a rite of passage and so it doesn't overwhelm them with tons of class abilities.

[@quincykunz3481]

I have developed a sort of best-of-both-worlds approach that lets players know how much progress they've made without too much complexity. I call it "Gearshift XP." -Every level requires 100 xp, (100%,) Excess XP from the previous level carries over, and the DM awards XP at the end of each session based on how quickly they want PCs to advance. To get the amount of XP per session required to produce the expected rate of progress, simply divide 100 by the desired number of sessions at that level, then reduce that number by 1 or 2 points to compensate for bonus XP. (For example, if the DM decides that going from level 3 to 4 should take roughly 3 sessions, they would award about 32 xp at the end of each session.) -Bonus XP: 1-5 bonus XP per session can be awarded to each player or the whole table for set behaviors you explain in session 0. These can change depending on the tone and style of game you want to encourage, but might include: Finding lore and secrets, training, cooperative roleplay, epic moments, or completing optional objectives and challenges. -Downtime sessions don't award xp, narrative or planning sessions with little challenge provide half usual xp, and achieving above and beyond can award x1.5 session xp.

[@xapimaze]

Interesting. I like it better than keeping players in the dark, certainly.

[@DungeonMasterJosh]

The thumbnail for this video feels like a shoutout to the channel XP to Level 3

[@TheDungeonCoach]

I had that same thought lol!

[@BobMcDowell]

It is and it isn't. It can cause unnatural behaviors, like racing to the next milestone and then doubling back to the story that was skipped.

[@Tysto]

I split the difference and think of it as taking 4 "XP" to get to the next level, and each adventure is worth 1-3 XP depending on length, difficulty, and success. Note that that means it will take about 32 adventures to get from 1st to 20th level, which will probably take a year of IRL play. If you like high-level play, then you need to bump them up a level after every adventure until they get to 12th or 15th.

[@harrywhiteley89]

Does no one remember story goal xp? You know the experience points that you received for completing story objectives? I'm sure that was somewhere, I think only getting xp for killing monsters doesn't really work either but the Milestone system is too open to DM and Party abuse, the XP system is fair on both sides, you complete an encounter with an XP amount associated with it and you gain some XP, if you get enough XP you level up. I hope TDC mentions the additional things that you could reward experience for and doesn't make a video about how killing monsters for experience points is the point of the XP system (though that is a potential game that could be played in that system)

[@rodrigoorthmannnielson5048]

In the campaigns that i ran i used milestone leveling. I'm my next campaing i'm going to give a shot to XP. Since we use DNDBeyond it's pretty easy to track the XP. Also using XP awards player's that are consistent in the game (player's that don't miss sessions). I'm also planning to award xp based on good decision making, rp, etc.

[@orionvandenberg5328]

Just wanna hop in and tell you that running it the way that you're implying you will (with different xp per player) is not going to be a fun way to run the game. You'll start to see imbalance between players, especially those who cannot make a session, and they'll just fall behind and feel underpowered and just generally have less fun.

[@TheAzureSkyy]

I caught that joke. Xp to level 3. Lol

[@kurtoogle4576]

Milestone XP takes the focus off of combat-heavy play and rewards a more balanced game. Over time, my groups have leaned into much more story-focused games with lots of exploration and RP. And it is really rewarding!

[@WhatIfBrigade]

I like the milestone method because then updating character sheets and questions about new spells takes place between sessions. Nothing worse than stopping in the middle of a fight to explain how a new ability works.

[@xapimaze]

I like the "beautiful blend of the two" where milestones contribute to XP among other things. Then, the players level up as normal when they gain XP. Although it doesn't avoid the work that goes along with tracking XP, it avoids a lot of horrible downsides to milestone leveling that this video does not address explicitly. And it provides a reasonable level of motivation for the players to continue with the adventure. I like the "don't prescript when they level up" comments. I prefer the term "milestone leveling" to "milestone XP" for the approach discussed in this video.

[@samchafin4623]

I've had some success advancing characters based on the goals they set for themselves. I can still bump the up if the game calls for it, but they also get to be somewhat self-directed with how/what merits advancement.

[@SteveyLuke]

Coach, you gotta react to the new Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves trailer!

[@ryadinstormblessed8308]

It's less confusing to discuss if you refer to the 2 systems as "Milestone Leveling" vs "XP Leveling", instead of using the word XP in both terms.

[@xapimaze]

Absolutely.

[@thomasparker6124]

Whilst I've pretty much always used DMed as Milestone without XP. It's taken me a long time to see the reason for it since I read old AD&D books back in the 90's, but Old School Renaissance games that reward XP pretty much solely by the gold (and other treasure) you "return to civilisation". Esp. those that then imply that the main point of getting the gold back to civilisation is to squander it in rampant carousing and heavy partying rather than finding sensible It is very much thinking of adventures as heists where the objective is to explore, recover treasure and monsters as obstacles to avoid and negotiate around rather than necessarily to be conquered. Working how to get the world's Mona Lisa *back out* of the dungeon is as much part of the adventure as . As is choosing when to ditch useful supplies for EXTRA TREASURE! (Although encumbrance by lb is a pretty awful compared to slot systems) XP from Gold doesn't work so much for Campaigns focused around overarching stories and/or character focused drama, or for parties who like the "Combat as Sport" approach.

[@romantheblack-cat]

My dm was like you can carry infinite wieght cus i dont wanna do math. (Context) ee are all newbies to dnd

[@kelpiekit4002]

A levelling idea (Might be crap. Just playing about with a thought). Taking ideas from skill based growth you could give growth points (gp) instead. Each feature costs gp equivalent to the level. E.g. Spending 2 gp lets you buy a level 2 feature such as the next hit dice, your fighter's action surge, etc. You give them enough gp that they are in effect levelling at the same speed they would otherwise and some skills, such as hit dice, spell slot level, or proficiency bonus, you need to have bought the previous phase before you can buy the next. It would give more control. For example maybe your wizard wants to work on building up their hit points before gaining spell power or maybe your druid wants to focus on being a natural spell caster without going for wild shape. It would also mean you are more often getting things as you level up piecemeal.

[@jaakkosippola7191]

There is a great video from the DM lair channel that talks about the CR encounter system. In it Luke is basically saying that people let PC take long rests too often and forget the adventuring day mechanic of it completely. When I started thinking it this way CR encounter calculations make sense at least to 10th level. I have not tried them over that.

[@WandererEris]

Milestones only work in 5e, just so people are aware. Older editions like 3.5e use XP as a resource for spells and magic item creation, and it's important for things like level loss. 5e getting rid of these mechanics makes milestone more appealing, but that title is misleading for the wider D&D community, not just the core casual 5e audience.

[@backonlazer791]

What I usually do is milestone leveling, however I also track XP. If the party is overdue a level up XP wise I will usually give it to them.

[@Wiseblood2012]

I think milestone leveling emerged BECAUSE the CR system is broken. I have recently returned to older systems 1e 2e and such the XP system there is nice. It’s more math but the incremental nature is rewarding. Milestones seem to be predicated on the concept of success. Imagine failing and gaining a level anyway. (That sounds bad) XP for leveling means you see your progress and you can still gain XP in a fail state.

[@bobthegamingtaco6073]

I can understand that, though picture this: the party has been tasked with storming a castle that you (as the DM) have purposely made too difficult. They make a valiant effort, but are forced to retreat by many skirmishes followed by a pit trap that ejects them from the castle. The characters, realizing how badly they're outmatched, hit the books, looking into seige weaponry, hiring a thief who can diffuse traps, and learning about a false wall leading to a secret passage that brings them right to the heart of the castle. Because they've learned so much, not only do they have a better grasp of the situation, but they gain a level as well. They might have failed, but in doing so they've grown from their failures in a way that would be difficult unless you plan on awarding exp for reading, or bartering with an npc

[@Wiseblood2012]

@@bobthegamingtaco6073 As a player I have lived that. Lol! At least in broad strokes.

[@bobthegamingtaco6073]

@@Wiseblood2012 ooh, glad to hear other dms think roughly along the same lines as me, helps me realize I'm not totally off the deep end. Out of curiosity, what's one aspect of d&d/role playing games you really feel goes unappreciated? I love taking those smaller aspects of the game and making them central, but most of my players nowadays are new to tabletop games, so I can't really ask them

[@Wiseblood2012]

@@bobthegamingtaco6073 the thing I see go unappreciated is equipment lists. I think I am an extreme corner case though. Equipment lists and encumbrance, for me, are immersive. In the real world I can’t carry everything with me. If I had the foresight to get equipment in town before adventuring it is very satisfying. Especially if the equipment was creatively employed or perfectly suited for the task.

[@xapimaze]

I like that players can gain experience for failures. It seems "real world".

[@boldnotbald3705]

So what do you use instead of CR for your encounters?

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Milestone is so much better than experience for leveling. I really like streamlining the game. This are so much more fun when the game isn't bogged down with excessive number crunching and book keeping. I would just include milstones ahead of time when prepping the game. It is fair to level up after completing a major adventure or quest. The DM can readjust things when the adventure really goes away from what they planned. It is a good idea to inform players ahead of time that leveling comes after adventures. That is so they don't ask out it too much. Another big benefit of milestone leveling is that it takes incentive out of grinding. That is great. Grinding sucks so bad.

[@Arclight-Arcanum]

So what do you do if they get an item that grants levels/XP? IE Deck of Many Things?

[@BegravelseinBrussels]

XP is a layer of tracking I don't have interest in. I'm still experimenting with leveling. Last level, after they gained it, I parceled out features a session or two at a time, based on what the pcs were using. It was fun but also a ton of work for me, since I had to keep track of what features pcs needed and what they'd already received. I'm planning next to experiment with the Matt-Colville style of telling players what constitutes a major beat. I want them to complete two major beats for the next level (we're at the shift from tier 1-tier 2).

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I give points for successes, attempts and milestones but money is more plot than pocket in necessity

[@josephcarriveau9691]

I am pretty firmly in the "It should feel like XP but holy moly is the XP system broken in 5E so I need to customize this quite a bit" camp. Milestones leaves the game feeling, to me at least, like a glorified game of Hero Quest where we've just gotten to the end of the game board and leveling up is what the players do while the game master grabs the props they need for the next game board.

[@xdrkcldx]

I always want to do milestone, but every time I start off with it, players always ask to level up every session. It gets annoying. At least with XP I can control how much XP they get, and they can see the bar moving. And if the time feels right for a level up, I can forego XP at that point and level them up.

[@pacodance29]

Three Pillars Baby!

[@urdaanglospey6666]

I use milestone almost exclusively at this point. XP is just messy. People miss sessions, fail to track their own xp, etc.

[@evans178]

Does a 7 pass on that Insight Check ? =(

[@WhatIfBrigade]

If players are antsy to level up I just give them some cool items instead.

[@pzalterias5154]

Milestone makes sidequests feels useless and I feel like I'm wasting my time. It encourages the player to go to the next big objective they know will give them 1 more level. Had this experience in Light beyond the Witchlight. I think XP per objective is a better middleground. Like small objective : 1 XP, medium : 2, Big : 4, and your group need 10 XP to level up.

[@duncanmacneil4759]

Milestone is the way to go, unless you know of something Better????? I love the simplicity and that it follows the story line, versus random times. In my game when they come out of the Temple of the gods they will get their next level as he rewards them with powers. I still need to get you bonus Level up Perks book, since this will be a slow leveling game.

[@draggo69]

Nice!

[@lestervinghail5654]

Milestone experience is for all the people who love participation awards and disparity hurts they're feelings. No...the math is not hard.

[@mavfan21]

It is the only way to play and like you added, some PCs should hit Milestones before others. One of the many things I like about Index Card RPG is the emphasis on "leveling up" with loot and small boons instead of the traditional 5e formula. I really hate leveling up in general as it is weird and formulaic. Story based player growth is more realistic and cinematic. Side note, are you no longer an educator? Just curious because I am a teacher and it seems a lot of DM's/RPG enthusiasts are also in education.

[@GlenHallstrom]

No no no no...sort of. I will milestone XP if I'm running a systems where there is 1 level advancement chart for all characters, like 5E. If there are separate level advancements for each class or sub-class (which is most of the OSR, which I exclusively GM) I will do the advancement per class AKA hand out XP for each class. This Is The Way.

[@schylerfontenot7358]

I use milestone bc it’s the easiest. I’ve also used a mixture, 10 tally point system that I stole from some other KZbinr (don’t remember who though) and enjoy that one

[@AdamBuxton-challand]

Milestone is good when used well to limit murder hobos, as the is no benefit to killing everything, and infact there is negative inclination due to it slowing the adventure and development.

[@omikun17]

Oh gee which one do you think is best? Maybe the system you made yourself because you wouldn't hype it if you didn't like it more? If you didn't think it was better it wouldn't be in your book...

[@Tysto]

1:14 That's not a milestone.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

My dm do a combo. He gives an x amount of XP every session..so what can gives upp XP.. coming early, rping well, doing cool shit, being nice. But the mine reason for doing XP is also for panishment..coming late (whit out noticing of course), or just not coming ate all(whit out noticing off course), being a dick,and other bad player behavior. So thenecly it's is milestone (because we get basic XP amount and it's doasnt tide down to how many pigs we killed).but he used xp as a from of a carrots and sticks

[@keithulhu]

How about XP to Level 3? 😜 I'll see myself out now.

[@tyler1673]

It's the best in 5e because 5e is not a system where you want characters of different level existing.

[@scatterbug]

Moar!

[@RulesandRulings]

Google tells me that in English this is "Grind!". Which still works.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Letting players track their xp leads to bookkeeping mistakes, especially when you award xp independently. Milestone leveling keeps everything fair and easy.

[@bleddynwolf8463]

on this point i will more or less agree

[@sarabjorkgren6915]

💜💜💜

[@theenoogie]

I’ve only ever done milestone before this last year of gaming, so nearly a decade of milestone only. And while I understand XP based leveling, I do not prefer it. Playing in a OSR game, XP leveling works but it makes it a grind. Playing with newer players in a Curse of Strahd game, I believe XP for leveling pushed them toward being murder hobos. When you get XP for a kill, and don’t get XP for RP, then why would you ever talk? Of course all of this can be calibrated but really just do milestone and skip all the hurdles.

[@WandererEris]

In 3.5e you get XP for bypassing a challenge, not for a kill. If you successfully disarm a trap, or sneak past a guard patrol, or talk your way out of a situation, you get XP. Maybe apply that to your games. Apply a soft "social" CR to situations and award accordingly. Might help you curb 5e's murderhobo problem.

[@xapimaze]

I haven't played "Curse of Strahd", yet, neither as player or DM. Does it discourage the "Noncombat Challenges" approach outlined in the DMG (pp 261)?

[@theenoogie]

@@xapimaze I’ve only done CoS as a player so I’m not certain, but I’m under the impression that it’s designed as milestone leveling. If milestone, then triggering events are what cause the level up so XP just doesn’t play into it.

[@brandonolsen579]

One thing I like about milestone is it allows you to take away levels too. I suppose you can take XP away if you wanted, but it feels better for milestone. One time I was running an uncharacteristically brutal campaign, and I had a paladin have a crisis of faith. I ended up taking two levels away from her along with some class features, and then when she finally regained her faith during a battle that had two downed players, and I gave it all back with an extra level during the encounter. It was an explosive moment at the table.

[@xapimaze]

As a player, I hate it when DM's make such moves.

[@brandonolsen579]

@@xapimaze well i discussed it with her before hand. It was her idea for her magic to stop working because her magic was powered by her devotion and her devotion was wavering

[@brandonolsen579]

@@xapimaze although I do agree with you that if you want to do something with someone else's character like that with talking to them first its extremely rude. Talking is like the best dm tool there is

[@draggo69]

[@bruced648]

mile stone leveling is for the lazy GM.

[@HI-kb2cg]

Kobold fightclub does the xp thing for you 0 math needed. Use the tools ppl have made for 5e.

[@VioletDeliriums]

🌈🔥💕 👶🔥 FESTIV🔥L!!! 🔥🍷🔥 🔥🐕 F❤STIVAL!! 🔥💊 🤮🔥W👀H!!🔥💋🍸🔥💜🤯

[@keithulhu]

How about XP to Level 3? 😜 I'll see myself out now.