How To Use Milestone Levelling In Dungeons and Dragons 5e

[@johnstarinieri7360]

Maybe the real milestones are the friends we made along the way

[@seanellis5410]

I would expect this level of wholesomeness on no D&D channel except for Dungeon Dudes.

[@short7440]

Maybe the real milestones are the undead the party necromancer made along the way

[@YahoeyV22]

NO experience is more important lol

[@anderslundtoft2315]

I think I have to throw yp

[@AspenBrightsoul]

@@short7440 "You raised the bard?! I missed his beautiful music." *The skeleton starts playing Gangsters Paradise on his bagpipes*

[@CecilQuetzalcoatl]

"Charmingly macabre creatures" he says as a bug crawls out of someone's nose. I don't think you know what charming means

[@acadiano10]

What's its charisma modifier though? 😁

[@RobertBarry1969]

GameNinjaD you made me laugh. I was drinking coffee at that exact moment. It wasn’t pretty. Not sure why I laughed, your answer is clearly the logical answer.

[@chadbochaddins4055]

Takes playing "got your nose" to the next level

[@mattmartin326]

Always milestone for me. I can't stand encounters just for the sake of awarding xp. Like Monty said, it needs to advance the narrative. I'll often include "random" encounters that challenge the players if it looks like there will only be one encounter between long rests, but those filler encounters ALWAYS are relevant to the story, give a clue to the current quest, or foreshadow coming events.

[@subduedpotato7216]

there's no rule that states that just because you use XP that encounters, combat or otherwise, can't, or shouldn't, advance the narrative. All encounters can and should be used to either advance the narrative or give the PC's a more comprehensive feel for the campaign world. Be they combat or social encounters, regardless of the levelling system that's being used.

[@optimus2200]

@@subduedpotato7216 YASSSS please preach. Now you can always reward EXP when a player do something with thier Personality traits or backstory elements . your players can have goals and plans they want to achieve and you reward them EXP that way.

[@subduedpotato7216]

@@optimus2200 yes. absolutely. There's so many options for awarding XP. With milestone, there's just the objectives

[@optimus2200]

@@subduedpotato7216 also remember that EXP isnt the only thing to reward , Magical Items, Charms boons and feats are all good things to award. and the best reward there is .... the friends made along the way XD XD XD but seriously Creature companions like beasts or other things are an excellent addition that players would love.

[@subduedpotato7216]

@@optimus2200 you are correct. the only limit on what you can reward your players with is your imagination

[@GoodOldGamer]

Milestones are the best! This eliminates steal-kills, fights just to grind, and makes sure no one falls behind. It's a much more cooperative form of play. It also makes completing quests feel more accomplished when you get back to town/camp and rest, waking up with a level up, instead of randomly leveling after some trash fight when you got your last 20 xp you needed.

[@edschramm6757]

personally i love using milestone, and most of my group does too. my big issue with an XP system was previously, i had to leave about 90 minutes before the rest of the group called it. well, i fell 5 levels behind even people who were not there every week, even though i was, because i wasn't there for the end of each encounter, so i got none of the rewards, even if i had participated in the fight. a level 11 sorcerer in a level 17 campaign is really vulnerable

[@mydknightcloud]

I gotta admit, I never used xp. It just feels better to go Okay you just killed the demon lieutenant after running the gauntlet. You are celebrated heroes and you get a much deserved rest. You gain a level and use the rest time to work on new skills, spells etc. and meet again at your favorite tavern.

[@arcxjo]

Steal-kills as in one PC stealing all the XP by landing death blows? I'm pretty sure they covered that in the "Terrible House Rules" video. "No one falls behind" in XP levelling if you're spreading it out to the whole team because they worked together to earn it, unless they're skipping sessions.

[@NStripleseven]

Milestone is nice, but I would have the players level up separately, when each of them does something big or interesting.

[@Flasa]

I do milestones a bit different. In my table, they’re like XP, but in a different magnitude. Every session that the group accomplishes a meaningful step in the direction of their objectives, I award them 1 milestone. Players who succeed in personal sidequests or some other outstanding side objective are awarded 1 milestone additionally. Then, depending on the amount of milestones they accumulate, they level up. From levels 1~3, they level up at each milestone. From levels 4~7, every 3 milestones. From levels 8~13, every 5 milestones. From 14~17, every 7 milestones. And from 18 onwards, every 9 milestones. Hope this helps someone :)

[@MrHarshverdhan]

But then it creates problem of wanting your character stuff done before others or else lose out. Not saying can't work but would depend on type of players.

[@Flasa]

@@MrHarshverdhan Sure, you’re right. It works very well with me and my players because I know them for a very long time and they don’t do this kind of thing. However, it might not be the best choice for you to do it with people you don’t know enough and with certain personalities.

[@VioletDeliriums]

personal side quests should not be rewarded...unless the whole party agrees to do them, they are just distractions from the rest of the table. we need players who cooperate to set and achieve common goals, not individuals who domineer the table's attention/game-play time by running around doing whatever comes to mind with the excuse of "that's what my character would do." These characters are professional adventurers at work trying to make enough money to pay the rent, and they work for a little company called "the party" who takes contract gigs or goes out looking for treasure.

[@woolsweater6489]

I immediately clicked because I LOVE milestone leveling, it helps the DM really feel like their story controls how powerful the characters are, not just the numbers

[@melidor2198]

Wholeheartedly agree. I especially love giving a level-up not just after boss combat-but during big PC story moments. Oh you overcame your tragic backstory or discovered your role in an ancient prophecy? Levelllll up! I think it's a pleasant surprise for players who would otherwise expect level-ups to always be after a big boss fight or something along those lines

[@FrankensteinDC]

Or I'm bad at math and..... your lvl 3, woohoo!!! I also dragged lvl 4 out for 3 long rests lol, you don't get extra attack yet, 😈 not till I say so

[@victoriaamat5368]

I agree with everything you said except that it is exactly the reason why I don't like milestone leveling. Numbers should be impartial as so the narrative, I believe players have a reasonable amount of responsibility on moving the story forwards. Milestone leveling leaves the most important sign of accomplishment (mechanically speaking) in the sole hands of the DM. I don't find it either fair or appropriate to engage everybody in the creation of the story.

[@woolsweater6489]

Victoria Amat that makes total sense. I just never have groups who focus on XP. I would love to do it that way, and at some point I will, but I guess since I found my dnd group in a writer’s club, we like narrative. Also, I play with ALWAYS beginning players, so they’re always so intimidated by XP (poor babies)

[@woolsweater6489]

Randy Koney HAHAHAHA I started a campaign doing xp but I forgot to do my first xp add, and going through the process of doing MATH in DND (yucky) made me toss the whole thing.

[@Sam_Markley]

I definitely think the biggest thing that can be taken out of this is to let the players decide what their goal is. The DM doesn't need to state that explicitly, but if you know what their goal is, and how they're going to feel fulfilled in the game, it makes sense to use that as a milestone if their goal is large enough. I've had the same group go from "Let's screw with the woodworker" to "Let's overthrow this doppelganger gang" and one of those are definitely worth a level up compared to the other

[@aidanbender7085]

I’m currently dming a campaign for three players who are new to dnd. I know the satisfaction as a player of gaining xp, but know the usefulness and ease of play that milestones are as a dm. I’ve chosen to compromise: I know when the characters will level up (based on completed quests/goals/etc) in the story arc, and then divide the necessary xp up so that I can assign xp at the end of every session. This also allows for awarding less xp for brute force and more xp for creativity. Edit: yes this does require a lot more dm planning in advance, but it’s worth the smiles around the table when I can give them each 100 xp for individual, specific creative actions they took that session.

[@rockkatona100]

I am doing the same. Just with random numbers. Sometimes they get more, sometimes they get less. I am giving them plus exp as well. So we count in exp but have mile stone.

[@trequor]

It's a great system. I use it as well, though in a more free-form version. I really like XP because it gives the players a concrete sense of progression. In too many intrigue or exploration games, the milestones are so fuzzy that as a player I just felt like I was spinning my tires, with no clear sense of progression.

[@hammerhiem75]

Many years ago, when I first heard about milestone levelling I instinctively knew this was the way i needed to run levelling in my games, I switched straight away and I have never looked back, I level players per 8 hours play (written obviously, if they spend 3 hours drinking in a bar they don't count) lvl 1-3, every 12-16 hours 4 - 6 and every end of Arc or mini arc after that. I write with this levelling format in mind as it allows me to pre plan where characters will be at what point in the overall campaign. I.e Chapter 1 (1-7) Holdfast village > Catriana > infection of Hagon > Nerull Chapter 2 (7 -9) Clan lands > Introduction of the Naga > City of pearls > Black dragon Chapter 3 (9 - 12) Three daemons > the mana web > freeing the clans > reintroduce Nerull as the bad guy > Royal Naga Chapter 4 (12 -14) Black Dragon revenge > Search for solution to the rifts > Catriana’s return > Naga death Cult Chapter 5 (14 -16) Powering the mana web > Zombie Naga > quest for the stones in the elemental plane > Restore Therazene the earthmother > closing the rifts Chapter 6 (16 -20) Gathering items for the assault on the Shadow realm > Saving Hagon > Destroying the Naga > fight to the Centre of power Final fight Catriana on Dracolich after assault on the tower of undeath.

[@dharmabm42]

For Curse of Strahd there are some great milestone advice on the campaign subreddit. One thing I took from that is that it is also ok to use failure and defeat as a milestone. If they didn't beat that challenge or if things didn't work out and they have this time of reflection and recovery, that suggests character growth.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

I usually divide my campaings into chapters, and the players level up by the end of every chapter. It's not even remotely consistent with how much XP they'd actually need for each level (they often fight a lot less or a lot more than what would've been necessary), but it makes it super easy to keep track of their power level in comparison to the encounters I have planned.

[@Hedron-Design]

I was recently in a game and EVERY one of us players were shocked when the DM awarded us XP at the end of the session. We are so used to and enjoy Milestone that we didn't even consider someone was still using the XP points.

[@TheHornedKing]

Only played with milestones so far, but I can already tell that I don't want to use XP. Ever. Less to keep track of for everyone, and puts more focus on the story because everything isn't about numbers anymore. Saves time too.

[@Somesortadog]

Me: I agree with everything you said. DD: But we posted this 1 minute ago and it's a 22 minute long video... Me: Point being?

[@JohnW-yv6yp]

Vagus 😂

[@NStripleseven]

Ye

[@majesticwizardcat]

I've been only playing and DMing using milestone leveling. It feels that EXP makes many players look the game as a video game and force players to slain enemies to level up instead of think of a smart way to resolve a situation. Milestone had neither of these problems and incentivises players to role play at their fullest.

[@DavidGonzalez-zl3dz]

There's more than one way to "beat" an encounter.

[@subduedpotato7216]

I find that the only thing milestone incentivises the players to do is complete the objectives that need to be completed in order to level up. It limits exploration if they already know what their next objective is. Sure, XP encourages murderhoboism but in my game they tend to be more free form with exploration. It might just come down to the player's play styles, not the levelling system used.

[@xith1349]

I mean that's easily solved as a DM by properly rewarding your players with XP for proper roleplaying, puzzle solving, and creative solutions to problems. XP is calculated by encounters, not just monster killing. It really only becomes a problem if the campaign is poorly planned or options are poorly communicated so the players feel like it is always optimal to just kill everything.

[@Ginric99]

@@subduedpotato7216 my players have learnt that the side quests and extra stuff rewards them with other things, magic items, money, an npc that might help in future but my players also don’t play to level up, they play for the fun of the experience so they are happy taking a side quest that may give them nothing at the end as long as the story is fun.

[@timob1681]

​@@Ginric99 i agree that xp isn't the most important, but honestly it's way more fun to get some sort of reward for doing something. like yeah, it's not a huge issue if i don't benefit from doing this side quest, but it's still way more satisfying if i do benefit from it. the fact that so many people claim milestone is flat out better is astonishing to me, as i always thought a compromise between the two is the way to go. my DM runs it as "you get X amount of xp from this encounter," giving everyone a base amount for combat encounters, and giving a bonus to one person if they stood out a lot. for example: in one encounter (lost mine of phandelver, new players, new dm) our party (cleric, rogue, sorclock, ranger) was fighting a young green dragon. the cleric was downed in the first round, and the ranger used her turn to pick up the cleric and get out of there, leaving just the sorclock and me, the rogue. i rolled a nat 20 with a long bow, added sneak attack (swashbuckler) and did like 40 damage (we were level 4). sorclock gets a nat 20 for scorching ray and does another 60. at this point the dragon attacked the sorclock and flew away. i asked the dm if i could opportunity attack since it came within melee range. at this point he realized he had forgotten to disengage and watched in horror as me and the sorclock both opportunity attacked and demolished the rest of its hp. the cleric got i think 500 xp, the ranger 525 for saving the cleric, and me and the sorclock each 600 for singlehandedly killing the dragon in less than 2 rounds. he would also award xp for roleplay encounters, and would often make roleplay encounters based on who was lagging in xp. for example he made some sort of side encounter for the cleric and the ranger where two sketchy guys tried to flirt with the cleric. the cleric refused their advances for a bit, and when they got more insistent the ranger stepped in to help. after they diffused the encounter, the dm gave the cleric 100 xp and the ranger 75, catching them up to me and the sorclock. if there were ever an instance of a character being behind in xp, the dm would try to shape combat encounters around things that pc was good at, so throw more undead at the party if the cleric is behind so she has a better chance of being the "hero" and catching up. if everyone contributed equally to a victory, we'd all get the same xp. finally, he also implemented narrative "timeskips" so that if we were ever very close to leveling and there was a thematic reason for us to have some downtime, we would spend about a month doing something and then level up. he would have us describe what we were doing during that time and what we would like to gain from it as well, so if my character wanted to multiclass wizard or something i'd say "i spend the month researching magic and gaining a rudimentary understanding of it," and then i'd gain my level in wizard. however, if i reached a rogue ASI level and wanted to take magic initiate or something, i might say "i spend the month running a shell game in the town square, collecting gossip. whenever spellcasters come by, i make sure to talk to them about their magic, trying to glean some knowledges about its workings." i'd then gain a rogue level, maybe some gold, and the magic initiate feat. i say all this to say, milestone and xp are both flawed systems RAW, so i think compromising between them or at least deciding what's best for your group is better than just saying one is flat out better than the other. i personally like xp progression a bit more, but i like the idea of being able to bestow levels on people for important story moments. this can simply be accomplished by not always following the RAW for xp gain, and remembering rule 0. tl,dr: compromise between xp and milestone, or discuss the pros and cons of each with your players before deciding one is better than the other.

[@isaiahmoonlight1727]

I have never played anything but milestone, and now I have facts to back up why. P.S. Thank you! Your videos are always so informative and really good. Keep it coming!

[@DungeonDudes]

Glad to help!

[@skiks3562]

Another reason milestone leveling is great is that it lets you design quests with less of an emphasis on combat, or scenarios where diplomacy or stealth is a valid option. When your players know their levels aren't tied to winning fights, it de-incentivizes murder-hoboing, and encourages them to find alternate solutions.

[@Saiku]

Pros: You don't have to track exp. Cons: None.

[@jakeand9020]

There are cons, you can't use exp to reward role-playing and/or creative problem solving. There is also encouraging players to "beat the game" rather than live in the world you created. Still prefer milestone though.

[@timothymanuel9197]

@@jakeand9020 you could still award xp to players and have them use it for things like minor feats, knowledge, ability score increases, stuff like that

[@jakeand9020]

@@timothymanuel9197 I honestly never thought of a system like that, that's definitely something to think about.

[@CobaltContrast]

Pros: reduces murderhobos

[@CobaltContrast]

@@jakeand9020 I reward my players with hero points for that.

[@DM-Nox]

As a DM who uses milestone leveling myself I can't wait to see what you guys have to say. Always looking to improve and learn from others :) Thanks guys!

[@bigdog421]

When i was playing with my friends, our DM used milestone leveling and it was fun, we never worried about "when do we get to level?" and did have us more worried of "hell yeah! That session was awesome, when do you guys wanna meet up again?"

[@AndrewChumKaser]

I tend to find me and my friends are like "Oh hey, DM, how much exp did we get last session?" That's a clear sign that exp is an afterthought for them, and that it's just something to not worry about. So I just cut out the middleman and tell them when they level up, and just do it by ear. I've gotten the pacing wrong in some regards because of that, so I think it's fair to say it's a bigger burden on you as the DM to dictate the pace. I've made the mistake of being to nice and rewarding the players for very little. It's definitely something that I think is more for someone who can handle an important but vague variable like that, but it's liberating for you and the players to just discard the hassles of the exp system entirely.

[@CampingGrizzly]

the way I do it at least is by completing one task for every level. one task for 1st level, 2 tasks for 2nd, etc. that might help but idk

[@CampingGrizzly]

also my tasks are planned to be one session long

[@simongutierrez891]

So if I'm understanding it correctly, one levels up the players by where they are in the story, not by XP?

[@mathyoutoo1200]

yes, that is correct

[@simongutierrez891]

@@mathyoutoo1200 interesting, thank you. 😊

[@CobaltContrast]

Make achievable goals. Reward the player when the advance the plot. Its way more intuitive than adding up EXP.

[@bigdream_dreambig]

I definitely prefer the story-based focus of milestone leveling. No question.

[@rcschmidt668]

Dudes: Always love the videos... Thought you would like to know at the end of the session, the links to the left and right did not appear.

[@suckstone8600]

You earn those at level 5.

[@lightbringer1979]

The links were actually there, you failed your perception check.

[@v1n3ss]

Only visible for players with the Detect Embedded Links Feat

[@GoodOldGamer]

Another good way to extend those story rewards are things like free meals or rooms at the local inn for saving the town, an important NPC learns of their heroics and offers their aid, or the party's reputation precedes them and merchants in the next town offer special deals and the like. Things like this will help keep the party interested in checking out side quests and exploring beyond just the next main mission. It staves off the idea that 'we won't level anyway so why bother'.

[@subduedpotato7216]

funny you said that. The game I'm running has that. Free food/lodging, trinkets, etc. In fact, when the party is in a majer city, there's a chance they could get mobbed, just like a celebrity in our world

[@MrRaposaum]

I'm using something somewhat close to milestone leveling in my Curse of Strahd game because its kinda of a "sandbox" campaign and also the encounters aren't enough (not even close) to level the players to level 9 or 10 for them to finally venture into Castle Ravenloft and have their final confrontation against Strahd. Except I didn't placed milestones that give automatic levels. Instead I used the "objective experience" suggested in the Dungeon Master Guide. Added to also giving XP for combat encounters, of course. There is so many things to do in Curse of Strahd scenario, that I created a "milestone reference" document, divided it into regions (also made a "Scenario-wide entry") and wrote XP rewards into all possible "stuff" that players can do in that place/city that I would consider to be a somewhat significant advancement in the story, either to the "main scenario story" or a "local issue story". On the table, for party level, I use the level that I think it should be an average for a party to reasonably do that task (doesn't matter if players managed to do it in a much lower level, if they did it they earned it). This also include social interactions that change the course of the local or scenario-wide story... like making a new ally, convincing the local authorities to get involved in an issue in which they were uninterested, sabotaging a NPC plot, etc. Then give the XP as an easy encounter if it is a minor and/or easy objective and hard encounter if it is an important and/or hard objective. Don't divide that XP by player (each player receives the printed ammount), since it already appears on the table as something you should multiply by player to make a XP budget. Also since I didn't liked the XgtE optional rule on giving XP from traps (I think that needs much more tinkering), I just give a total encounter XP on the table mentioned above, using the average party level that that dungeon was designed for and use difficulty column based on how hard the dungeon itself is (not counting encounters, I'm talking about traps, hazards and puzzles). What "encounter level" that whole dungeon/place would be if it had no combat encounters? This requires some extra minutes of preparation when you design your campaign (or prepare notes to run a module), but will also give your players a sense of reward for accomplishing meaningful stuff and actively interacting with your world, without the "sudden level up" thing. If a campaign you're running is not a sandbox one and doesn't have much of these "side-quests", then sure, milestone leveling sounds good.

[@braulioservodedeus]

Hey, that sounds very interesting! As a DM planning to run Curse of Strahd, I would *love* to see that milestone reference document ;) Regardless, thank you very much for the tip :)

[@warrenchristensen8836]

I’m literally contemplating this same issue in my CoS campaign. I wanted to use XP to give the game an old school feel (my party are older folks) But most of the encounters are kind of done and the characters are just now getting to level 8. I’m adding a Strahd’s wedding scenario in the game and I think I’ll be adding a lot of XP for that. The party has done many clever things ahead of time so I think it’s deserved. Thanks for your thoughts!

[@MrRaposaum]

@@braulioservodedeus there you go www.dropbox.com/s/ebmpv7qsvdb3l8c/CoS%20Experience%20Draft.docx?dl=0

[@Katosepe]

I use a similar, although usually more improvised, version of this as well for most of my campaigns. CoS was also the campaign that made me start using it! I've run it a few times and neither a standard XP model nor the suggested milestone systems work well at all for the pacing. This kind of a system allowed so much greater control over the pacing and is the only way I'd do it going forward.

[@branedeadsbrigade5745]

@@MrRaposaum brilliant work

[@PowderKeg3838]

Milestone for me and my games. I usually get a good feel when the players have had adequate time to learn their character and are needing a boost. I try to level up at the end of a session and a good test.

[@eliasvernieri]

As a DM i TALK with the players to determine when to lvl up... every time they get to a "safe spot" where they can really rest and they are not in a hurry, i talk with them and ask the question: "do you want to lvl now? or do we give it another run at this lvl?" The players tend to slow the lvling themself.. because they know that the encounters are going to be a lot more harder the higher the lvl they are.. so they want to learn the most of each lvl before risking to more complex environments. i have a campaign with some new players we started almost 2 years ago.. and we play 2 or 3 sessions each month... and we are at lvl 10 right now...

[@eliasvernieri]

@@JediNiyte TY

[@eliasvernieri]

@NoBoringChars i'm not sure if you are being ironic :P ( that is a compliment my liege)

[@eliasvernieri]

@NoBoringChars sounds fine. Wht table where i ralk with players about lvling is a compleatly homebrew, so its very easy for me to adapt it to the lvl they are in at the time they get to an encounter ( most encounters i just have 1 or 2 creatures fixed and a kind of monstera to fill. Like. There is one yuan-ti priest.( i use a guardian naga statblock) and some other yuan ti. Bif they get there. At lvl 5. They find there are aome extra malisons. If they are lvl 6 a few malisonz. And a pit master. Lvl 8? great there is an anathema too. So i got lots of flexibility without breaking the campaign

[@shelbylowry9316]

I’ve personally always used xp for monsters and other encounters or events that are finished and I have always given bonus do at the end of a story for goals accomplished

[@TheBananaMan211]

i like the way Critical Role does milestone where it is after every story ark that they go through.

[@daemon_otaku]

Yeah me too, that's how I run my milestones. After the arc is over I give them a level. Sometimes I give my players a milestone in the middle of the arc if they do something to deserve it.

[@NerdEagle90]

I do the same thing.

[@jamesbates9038]

@@daemon_otaku yep so your players can givr the mcguffin to the enemy make friends with them qnd completely derail your plans give them q level up and take a session off to figure out the atory again lmao

[@danc6167]

Huge fan of giving feats/boons to played between levels especially if they're related to story/RP elements

[@bassett_green]

I started using milestone in my second campaign and haven't even thought about going back to XP since then. XP just doesn't fit with the way 5e is played

[@isolationnationn]

I do both, I track their XP secretly but run levelling up by milestone, then if XP would have levelled them up before my milestone, they level up then instead. Works perfectly :)

[@zionich]

Thank you for touching on the reward mentality and how treasure between leveling can satisfy that desire to feel progression. 10/10

[@pilzhut1562]

I use milestone progression and always check for two factors. 1) Have a milestone reached (beat a dungeon, finished a quest, reached a personal goal). 2) The players are using their abilities and seem to understand how their character works. The second factor really helps not to overwhelm new players.

[@Wyocaster]

The way I've been leveling up my players in Curse of Strahd is when they solve the tarroka deck riddles for the items. I found its nice because it makes them even more invested in solving the tarroka readings. On top of this when I tell them they level up, they actually level up on their next long rest, so it doesnt break the flow of the game

[@jameslafleur6842]

As a relatively new DM, I found this video SUPER helpful! Thanks for making this content, you guys are entertaining and really helpful :)

[@Cynoc]

It finally happened to me! I can't count the number of videos from you guys where I read in the comments where someone said they needed info on a specific topic and then you guys put out the video right then. Here I was in the last couple days really wondering how to handle the milestone leveling from here on out for my party, and up comes this video! Great information and a great presentation. As always, you guys have been super helpful. Thank you very much, and keep up all the good work! ^^

[@DungeonDudes]

We try to pay attention to what people ask and topics that come up often. So, thank you for any contribution you may have had to influencing those video. Thanks for being a fan!

[@simpleaspi1480]

As a new dm, I have built my campaign from the ground up. Just a small continent that about 80% isn't accessible due to story reasons. 3 towns of varying sizes and about 5 groups coexisting. I dont plan adventures, I try to make the world feel alive and let my players make the decision on what they want to do. The fights aren't always important but something can be found that speak about the world. I use milestone but I am flexible. Cause if they overcome an obstacles that I didnt see as challenging or do something fantastic I will award a level because I see it as their character growing. I feel it makes it more organic. Thought I would share. Sincerely The New DM.

[@Nakata2021]

I started using milestone from the first time I became a GM. 1- no need to track XP. Lot of unecessary work. 2- You can give a reason for the level up. You can introduce in the narrative the great old god talking to the Warlock mind and giving him more power. You can give a fighter almost defeated the extra strenght he needs to defeat a monster. You can make a special grimore fill the wizard with knowledge as he read it in the secret chamber of a dungeon. You can make a Paladin to force him break his Oath and in the moment he abide his oath his power erupt. You can make a Cleric being able to save his partner as a miracle of his God. You can set the Rogue find a master for new techinics. The possibility is endless to make the level up more than "I woke up casting fireball". 3- Much easier to balance encounters. You know in what level the party will be at each part of the adventure and can prepare encounters much easier.

[@seanellis5410]

My first experience with milestone was when I bought and ran Dragon of Icespire Peak for some friends. It definitely made things extremely simple, especially given that it not only had you do milestone, but also told you where it would be optimal to give the players a level. Funny story about that module (and a light spoiler): the first dungeon they did was the old ruins, and it was the first time playing D&D ever for a couple guys. They got to the end of the dungeon, found the secret room, and activated the trap. The experienced player saw my confusion at the amount of damage, and read my lips mouthing to myself “4d10??? to myself. He went “NO WAY. We’re level one!” So, I felt obligated to not pad the damage for them since they knew how much it was supposed to be: two of the three of them died outright, and the other went unconscious (and was saved by the other people in the ruins who heard the explosion). Safe to say, if I EVER doubt a D&D book again, I’m doing what I think is best 😂

[@mikecarson7769]

another good video -- thank you, Dungeon Dudes! You hit on precisely the issues that i had hoped = how to manage milestones while still allowing freedom of choices within the campaign

[@joelsteppe5027]

Thanks guys! I've been looking up stuff about milestones for a while now and this is all the info I could ever ask for!

[@Atrianpaul]

The mayor problem of the milestone levelling is when the player know that their will level up when the they found the Dragon slayer sword some of them will push to find the sword and get annoyed because the rest of the party are rolplaying their character helping a random NPC... because they know that doesn't matter to levelling up....

[@joshua1201]

This can happen, thankfully most good groups care more about enjoying the game then gaining all the levels. at least all my groups have felt that way. Been using milestone since 5e launched and still had the past 2 sessions be complete side stuff having fun exploring the world not too worried about when they'll level up. .

[@Atrianpaul]

@@joshua1201 I didn't care much about leveling, but I can say that most player (roleplayers or not) some time are wishing for X class feature or spell lvl and when they are close to that particular level unintentionally they want to push forward to level up and get that cool class feature or spell that they make the class for... And the story tailed encounter can be done with xp system. I use the shared XP system and work incredible fun, and the things PC do it matter even if they do not advance the main plot. They made an ally (or an enemy) and get xp for it I do not worry much about the exact xp reward value because if they do something amazing or unexpected (be the good reason) they will receive more XP... If I think they are having to much xp I will dial down the xp they receive

[@queenannsrevenge100]

I've used milestone levelling for about 20 years now; I don't think I'll ever go back to XP accounting.

[@chucknorris1920]

This is a great idea. I have never tried doing this with my players but the advantages are many and I appreciate the perspective you offered in this video.

[@azrik6084]

I've actually been using this type of leveling for years. Makes the leveling process a lot simpler and you don't have to worry about some people leveling faster than others.

[@Maverickstyg]

This gave me just the right idea for how I'm going to progress the level 1-5 arc for the Theros campaign I'm plotting out, and your "running downtime" video gave me just the right idea for how to phase that arc into the 6-10 arc. Thanks, dudes.

[@ChadHensley]

Love the video. I have chosen to go with milestone leveling. It's a good thing that I went this way with my primary group because we only get about an hour and a half of play each week. We officially hit one year on Tomb of Annihilation and my PCs are only level 4. We are still in chapter 2 and they have only really experienced a few weeks of game time. My guys love it and they understand why they aren't higher level...it's because they spend more time role playing than actually accomplishing the task at hand. For my other groups, milestone has worked well and everyone felt like the pacing was perfect. In fact, several of my players from various groups have commented that the timing of leveling up in reference to the story at hand seemed to go in line with each other perfectly. Keep up the good work and hopefully my comment helps your KZbin algorithm.

[@timothyhayes2726]

I use a Hybrid milestone with "XP" tied to quests completed after so many quests either tied to main plot or side quests or story beats completed will get them to the next level. My players can complete quests in any order they decide as they come across them, and as they complete work they would in reality be gaining experience. I find this works really well for me as my players can go in whatever direction they want and they still feel like they are getting stronger. I can keep them on track with the story by knowing that actions have consequences and ignoring something for too long could have negative effects on what happens in the world.

[@DocDoesGamingTV]

I'm always misreading "How to run" as "How to ruin"

[@jadenlustre4612]

Hey Kelly and Monty! :) Mind considering making a video on how to use “boring” monsters more creativity? As a DM I I struggle with using monsters in a creative setting that the players will actually enjoy. For example of an encounter I was considering was to use an Oni for my players to go against. I was thinking of making it a boogie-man of sorts that is terrorizing the small village that the players are currently staying in when the sun goes down. Thing is, that’s the best I can come up with. Would be really cool to have your guy’s insights and creative ideas for us DM’s who aren’t so imaginative. Love what you guys do and actually helped me out immensely when I first started out playing DnD 2 years ago!

[@WarBoner-up9wk]

Your guys' timing is always perfect. I've been planning my next campaign (we rotate campaigns in my group) and wanted to change up some rules l, xp vs milestone is a big one. Thanks for the insight!

[@BenjaminBattington]

Hey guys I just wanted to leave a comment to thank you for all the work you do in these videos. Your channel is a godsend. Topics are always clearly explained with detailed information and no gimmicks.

[@lordnul1708]

As far as Exp vs Milestone, I actually take a hybrid approach. How to handle milestones for long term, well the short version is handled thusly: Lvl 1: "Many years from now, after when they finally face down the true final boss of the campaign and reach the ending, (the player's characters) will look back upon this moment and realize just how far they've come since then." From then on: either increase the number of sessions per level starting at lvl 5 for roleplay heavy games or start increasing as per 12:40 until lvl 10, at which point you stop raising it for combat heavy campaigns (for example, one themed around a rebellion against the B.B.E.G.) or more relaxed campaigns.

[@billionai4871]

What I did in my campaign was give my players many "side quests" focused on their personal quests and a personal enemy that each of them had (they all had different enemies), and when that 1 or 2-session long side quest was over, they would get a character and level- appropriate power up (+1 weapon, for example). once they all did one side quest for their archs, I'd give them a level. If we played long enough for those quests to be longer, I'd change the levelling system, but for as long as we played, I think it worked well

[@beatacrochets]

As a still relatively new DM, I really appreciate your reminders that as the DM, I can switch things up too fit my table's game!

[@dorianporter4162]

Love the video as always. I’ve always used milestone leveling. I just use my best judgement when it comes to the milestones. It always depends on what they are able to accomplish. If they manage to complete the goal I’ve set in 2-3 sessions then perfect. I sometimes give out levels if they explore and solve an issue or personal goal tied to someone’s backstory. If it’s something that seems like an actual quest.

[@macdameron9321]

great job describing the drawback of milestone leveling, and how to combat them. NICE!

[@chucknorris1920]

Anything that promotes better role playing and player engagement works for me and I can see milestone levelling forwarding this objective if used properly. Your comments on timing and when to implement them is also very handy.

[@kamuix2056]

Starting a new group and using the milestone system. This could not be more perfect timing!

[@VioletDeliriums]

How often to level up? General guidelines based upon 5e XP charts (but should be done with some discretion): 9:52 Level 1-3 characters: After solving 5-6 encounters of appropriate difficulty...Level 4-10 characters: After solving 12-16 encounters of appropriate difficulty...but I would prefer to design an adventure module that had the needed number of encounters (combat, social, puzzle, etc.) to level up, minus any random encounters that resulted as punishment for dawdling rather than moving toward an objective ...also keep in mind that TSR-style OSR games would not care about level-appropriate encounters, and if faced with something too hard to fight the players would have to find a way to negotiate with the monster or evade/sneak/flee. Unless the adventure objective is to kill a monster, there are always alternatives to combat, and any smart play like that should be rewarded the same as a combat win. 12:30 An alternative method is to have characters level up after the number of gaming sessions equal to the next level (...is that regardless of whether or not they actually accomplish any objective or just putz around like idiots or murder hobos?)...so on after the second gaming session they level up to level 2, after three more sessions they level up to level 3, etc. 18:57 Set up a moment in the narrative when it makes sense to level up the characters.

[@julieaubutgaudet4403]

I love milestones! It is so much easier for balancing encounters for me by knowing what levels my characters are at. I definitely award it after a big story beat or adventure.

[@svartrbrisingr6141]

With the campaign I will be running in a few days I am using milestone leveling. They get their level up to level 2 after their first dungeon. But then they wont get to level 3 until they make it into the lower section of the story sections final dungeon After that they will need to wait a while for getting a level up through story progression. But they can get levels if they do impressive things.

[@jessicahenry8602]

I have played with three DMs since I first got into D&D back in March, and all three have used milestone leveling. When I was still learning how to play, it was nice having one less thing to worry about understanding.

[@NerdyWordyMatt]

I had a dyslexic moment when I first saw this. I thought it said millstone levelling and would be about grinding. This is a much more interesting video than that.

[@HiddenNerdySide]

Great video as always, my Canadian brethren! Sometimes I'll even level up the party BEFORE they enter a massive turning point or moment in the campaign to help them along if I think they need an extra boost in order to take it on.

[@TheDorkfish12]

Thank god you guys posted this, I am suppose to be running a game tomorrow and they wanna use milestone leveling.

[@EpicQuestBattlemaps]

Milestone... This is the way! I remember making a house rule similar to milestone playing D&D (The Red Box edition). It wasn’t very popular, my players wanted to see their XPs. :) I am very happy to see this new option, I’m leveling up all my campaigns using milestone for years now, and my players love it. I don't think I'll ever use xp again.

[@madhurdhingra4525]

Milestone means players don't have to murderhobo everything for XP (level up)

[@hgman3920]

MIlestone leveling works really well in conjunction with downtime between story arcs from a narrative perspective. Part of the downtime between adventures can be devoted to learning new skills, new spells, training with weapons experts, etc which provides an explanation for leveling up. In film terms, it provides a sort of training montage for the PCs.

[@jamesmorris4917]

nice to see you both back together

[@biorph8597]

Milestone, absolutely milestone. Mostly because players have enough to track with spell slots, gold, consumable items, attunement slots, abilities, and so forth. One less number on the table to track, especially such a critical one, is just that much more mental space for paying attention to other important factors.

[@ElionMars]

Related to the point made 17:00 - A lot of systems seem to include less exp. for preventing or circumventing a combat encounter, and I feel like that weakens the other two pillars outside combat. If you can use a (fake) emblem of the royal guard to keep a group of soldiers from attacking you, then you should be rewarded for feeling like a cunning fox, not punished for invalidating the DM's hour painting miniatures and setting up stat blocks.

[@nathanielsoule8067]

I find the difference between Milestone and XP depends on what the goal of the campaign is. Leveling up is the reward for players doing what they're "supposed to" in a given campaign, so how you level up will help determine how the players interact with the game. Using XP by combat (as written in the book) will encourage the characters to seek out more monsters and fight every monster they see, so it's great for dungeon crawls. Using Milestones gives them more of an opportunity to choose to skip as many encounters as possible to reach their goal. In my experience, exploration/sandbox campaigns almost always work better with XP, so you can slowly reward players for every new place they explore or villain they stop. You can grant XP for killing monsters if that's the goal, or you can say XP is granted by each square of the map you search, or maybe XP is granted for each enemy you DON'T fight -- whichever way most encourages the players to engage with the point of the campaign. Meanwhile milestones work best with campaigns in which the players have specific goals to reach with less care of how much gets explored in between.

[@kyleward3914]

I run two campaigns currently. I have a group playing Tyranny of Dragon using milestone leveling and a homebrew campaign using XP. In the game using milestone, I like to let the players know in vague terms when they'll be getting their next level. You'll level up once you get where you're going, for example, or once you do what you need to in the castle. It gives them a sense on some level of how long it'll be between levels without giving too much away.

[@deathtyrantart]

I love using milestone leveling. I think its good to keep track of how long an arc can run where a level up would be rewarded upon completion. I made a mistake in my current game where the players leveled up after a full completion of the arc which took 17 damn sessions. I probably should have found a way to level them up halfway through. BUT the current arc they are on will be completed after maybe 5-6 sessions hopefully making up for that. It's good to know how long something will take that way you can plan accordingly.

[@greenknight44]

I like how you mentioned alternative ways of rewarding players during milestone levelling to make it feel more organic and progressive to the players. Honestly I took a page out of your earlier videos where you actually mentioned using trickles of xp as a way of ENCOURAGING RP. I always track this and love tallying up little increments of 1-5 or a straight 10 depending on the depth. At the beginning of a long-term campaign I let my group know that xp is tracked ALSO for RP, so even if the monsters or missions are done together, small extras that characters rp will be rewarded. So it becomes a good catalyst for "yes, and" between players (since I don't award evenly for rp, but dependent on who does what). It's worked like a charm so far and the differences between PC xp's are minimal so it doesn't feel grossly unfair to anyone. However, I'd totally give milestones a shot in a short term campaign like a 5-10 session campaign. Thanks for adding new insight to something that seemed too streamlined to me, this definitely makes me think about it more rather than dismiss it for my own style.

[@burgerchicken]

When I started running a game I used exp, but then transitioned to a milestone system after it was clear the story structure was going to work better with it.

[@xthebumpx]

I actually like giving level ups right before certain major battles, not after. Narratively in movies and books characters often go through try/fail cycles that they break out of by having an epiphany or some other payoff, i.e. leveling up, and *then* they finally have what they need to successfully go into the climatic battle. It is important to work it into the flow/story of the game though.

[@thejammiestjam]

I have one DM who uses XP and another who uses milestones, and I really prefer milestones. With XP, the DM will reward extra for especially excellent roleplaying, or clever ideas, and it can leave some people feeling a little let-down and feel like "oh, well why was their RP better than mine?" or "why was my idea not good enough for extra XP?" Whereas with milestones, it feels like a more even playing field, and also takes some pressure off of feeling like every combat needs to happen. Instead of "oops, we were so stealthy we missed a battle and therefore missed experience," now it's more focused on story beats and character beats. However, these are also people who are more interested in the narrative and telling a story together, as we're all writers. Worrying about skipping a combat because there is XP to be gained seems forced for this group. I mean, the argument could be made that an experience-based game's DM could award that XP anyway for being clever even though they didn't fight; if it were me, I would, but not all DMs are like that. After participating in both systems, though, I like milestones more. I like feeling as though completing a narrative beat also changes the character in a tangible way, whereas with XP that level up could happen randomly and not necessarily after something significant happens.

[@thefandombard4774]

With my milestone leveling I always do it after a certian number of sessions and the goals they have accomplished so it can be more fluid. And afyer some encounters and puzzles I award magic items for that character.I also include a narritive level up where i and the player make an in story reason for gaining these new abilities.

[@Beefworldbuilding]

Perfect timing guys! Love your videos

[@DungeonDudes]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@dianacarolina3399]

Perfect timing for me to use, as always

[@DungeonDudes]

Glad to hear it!

[@jedimasterxac6991]

This was such a great video I think im going to switch to milestone leveling I really think my players are going to find this so much more enjoyable thanks for all the info guys you really make DND more understandable and more enjoyable for new players! You rock!

[@HomeBrewHistoryandLore]

Just in time, this will help me really fine tune my milestone system!

[@thebranchyboi]

I wrote this comment, then realised it was a mini-rant. Sorry. I love all the stuff you guys make! I have always used milestone, and honestly think it is far superior for pacing, limiting excess work for the DM, discouraging annoying player behaviour (grinding meat for XP), etc. I am currently playing in a game that I absolutely love, but we our DM is using XP. We are really roleplay heavy, so there is not much combat which means very little XP. We started at level 1 with a short 1-3 module then switched to XP. Currently we are on our 25th game session, playing once a week (sometimes twice) for around 6-7 hours a session, and we are at level 4 with nearly 6000 xp. Our DM very occasionally gives bonus XP, but only about 25 at a time, and only for a certain character doing something. Our group is all friends and we only play when everyone can, so we aren't using XP as an incentive for people to come to sessions and participate. Honestly, if I levelled up after an encounter with only 50xp more than another player, I would hate it for our group, the next combat wouldn't be for another five sessions and I'll be slinging fireballs while the paladin can only swing his sword once in a round. I doubt that would ever happen though, so there is no point for the trickling of added XP. I love my DM, and I love our game, but she is new and the rules for XP aren't built for our style of play (but milestone is). I brought it up a little bit, but I don't want to seem like I am bored or pestering just because I haven't gotten a new level in a while. I would just like to see our group get up to those higher levels, and 25 sessions in... I'm not sure that will ever happen.

[@P0RK3NST31N]

As a player, I don't mind it either way. On one hand it's nice to know when you're about to level up, but on the other hand, not knowing adds to the anticipation of milestone levelling. As a very new DM however, I much prefer milestone. It gives me so much more control (as much as that's possible with unpredictable players) over how to set the story and tailor combat experiences to the group, which gives me a bit more freedom to try and plan long term

[@flohfilms]

I really like the idea of milestones. For my second time dming, it was still too much though. I currently track XP for my players to grasp when to level them up but ultimately just tell them when they reach it.

[@grantbaugh2773]

My first DM did milestone levelling so it's always felt the most naturally to me.

[@AlbertoRodriguez-zb3iu]

The way i use milestones is based on missions or tasks and i assign an xp value to that not encounters or a full level up. The players are aware how much xp the task rewards and are free to choose which tasks to do, the higher the xp the more dangerous the task is...(some might well be beyond thier level but they could tackle it if they think they could pass it, since they aren't required to kill enemies but completing the tasks)

[@karadordarkraven]

I have always used this method & I much prefer it. My players also seem to enjoy it!

[@Battleguild]

You could also secretly keep track of the party's experience from the players. Then let the player's know if they leveled up during a long rest or when they next enter a town, whichever comes first. You could also force the player's to take 2 weeks minimum downtime to be familiarized with their new abilities, to gain the benefits of leveling up. Use this system to advance the world state. Maybe that Giant Spider nest they decided to pass on, had its spiderlings mature during those 2+ weeks of downtime, and now a nearby settlement needs assistance.

[@lionelpil8707]

For groups of new players I usually begin with level 1 characters and allow them to get to level 2 when they show they understand the basic rules of the game. And to avoid one to feel too far behind, I secretly freeze higher level players until lower ones catch up.

[@edschramm6757]

my group is in the category where if you think its gonna take an hour for the group to solve it, budget for 3 hours. i gave a fairly simple color puzzle (pick up 2 runes of either Red, Blue or Yellow. they combine to form purple, orange and green, which is the color of the barriers they need to pass through to press some buttons to open the door). they spent a good 45 minutes trying to figure it out. even with the line "two at a time will show you the way" being present on the table that the runes were on.

[@TheHammertime51]

I always have used Milestone, as I've only played 5e. My group is pretty accustomed to leveling up when they complete an objective they set for themselves. This usually means they level up every 3-4 sessions. We play about once a week so every month they have a new level.

[@gregkun1]

I use both XP and Milestone. This gives the players some focus on choice which is more efficient? killing their way to the goal or negotiate to win the goal. I have a nasty habit of creating a hidden "hard mode" dungeon something that tests the party's mastery of their class and uses their imaginations to solve the dungeon. I often have special magic items as rewards at the end. But beating the dungeon isn't the goal. As it is a graded test based player performance. If they make the grade, all the rewards are given. Yes, it makes them really powerful if they perfect score it. But that means I can throw harder enemies at them, make the world situation direr around them or get them up to power for the next section of the campaign. Good for alt C's if any the main one dies along the way.

[@BlackShadow1991]

Thank you for doing these videos, Dudes, they are fun, informative and well made :D I almost always use milestone leveling, limits the bookkeeping.

[@Griffiewashere]

My method for level up is a mix between both milestone and exp which I call Segmented Milestone. Basically, I split up each level into 20 segments, and then reward each segment whenever I feel like. Generally, 1 segment for a combat encounter and another for good roleplay. I've also made each PC have personal goals that receive milestone segments on completion, depending on how big the goal is for them. They choose 2 goals to get 1 segment from, 1 goal to get 2 segments from, and 1 goal to get 5 segments from. I find this allows the players to still have a good idea of progression and allows me to reward exp without the common pitfalls of doing all the exp math! It's a lot easier to give segments for out of combat play too, which I always found hard to figure out how to do with exp.

[@michaelnichols361]

In one of the games I play we do it like this- To go from 8 to 9 we need 8 milestones, 9 to 10 we need 9, and so on. At the end of each session we get 1 and when we achieve a narrative objective.