Millennial Marines Defend Mormonism - Hayden & Jackson Paul | Ep. 1936

[@Christina_Bodmer]

I'm currently an active, temple-worthy member of the LDS Church. I follow both Mormon Stories and Stick of Joseph, and I want to share some thoughts on this episode. While I appreciate the respectful approach that John Dehlin took in this interview, I was disappointed by how the two young men represented the Church. John was calm, professional, and genuine throughout the conversation, even though he no longer identifies as a member and has his own concerns with church culture and teachings. He didn’t attack or try to catch them off guard but kept things respectful, which I admired. Unfortunately, the two young men on the podcast didn’t seem prepared or well-informed on the more challenging topics where the Church faces contradictions. They often avoided answering John’s questions directly and instead deflected by asking him questions, despite him reminding them that this was his interview. Rather than having a warm and open discussion, it felt like they were trying to provoke John. Even when things got a bit heated, John remained composed. He even acknowledged it at the end of the episode, saying, “Oh, I got a little heated up there, but I want to let you boys know that I have a lot of respect for you for coming on here. It takes a lot to come on this show.” However, the young men didn’t offer him the same respect in return. They didn’t thank him for the opportunity or acknowledge his professionalism. Instead, they came off as cocky and unprepared, which I found disappointing compared to other guests like Jim Bennett, who handled difficult issues with professionalism and substance. What troubled me further was that, after the podcast, these young men went on Ward Radio and they all made fun of John for getting heated, being asked questions by these brothers, almost as if they were proud of having provoked him. It felt immature and unbecoming of what we, as Latter-day Saints, are taught about showing love and respect, especially in challenging conversations. Overall, I was left feeling disappointed. As a member of the Church, we’re called to engage with others in a loving and respectful manner, particularly when discussing the gospel. Unfortunately, that wasn’t demonstrated here, and I hope future interactions can better reflect the values we hold dear.

[@GS-mh6xv]

They reminded me so much of a couple of missionaries who wanted to "bash". Don't know if that's still a thing, but that's what it seemed like to me.

[@Christina_Bodmer]

@@GS-mh6xv I also sensed that about them. It’s sad because I follow their channel and really enjoy their content. Their content is mainly interviewing historians and very knowledgeable members of the church who share insights that would strengthen my testimony… But this just really disappointed me. And I’m so surprised that on the podcast “ward radio“, people are applauding them. It all just seems petty to me.

[@MGom1963]

@@Christina_BodmerWard Radio has a lot of bravado but very little substance.

[@Lovecatholicfaith]

I think they are prepared for the generation they are ! When the church changed a lot to get adapted to what we have now. But unfortunately we have whole history before and the changes are not going to change the past.

[@jennyknudsen4552]

I want to thank you for stepping up to share your perspective in such a well worded way! 🎉 very loving response to both party’s, not making excuses for either side. but calling actions out for what they are!

[@angiklein9479]

Your show didn’t cause me to leave but it did support me when I did. Thank you!!

[@johnthomasmoulton8934]

Same here, Mormon stories only served to verify/validate my decision, but it didn't influence me at all. I made the decision before I knew the podcast existed.

[@23ybc]

Same! 🙌

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@angiklein9479 was no podcasts when I left in 1999. The gaslighting, ldSplaining, harassment, was pretty damaging. It would have been nice to have had a community especially since I was new to the country, didn't really know anyone, and avoided letting people get close to me as I did not want anybody knowing that my family buys this nonsense.

[@sheliabryant3997]

When children pray, God hears their earnest belief. When the most wretched of any age cries out to Him, so He also does. He is a FULLY INVESTED and "driven" Saviour: FOR HIS OWN NAME's SAKE.

[@glendaevans6038]

​@@johnthomasmoulton89344:52:36

[@sammie7162]

Sending love to Gerardo. The obvious lack of respect was felt through the screen and you handled it so impressively. John, your follow ups were better than most journalists. Thanks for asking the tough questions

[@shannonfisher6872]

@@sammie7162 thanks for this comment… agree 100%

[@LifeAfterBelief]

Exactly! John and Geraldo you did a great thing respectfully standing up for the truth and calling out obvious problems.

[@BG-ig6fd]

I wanted to shake them, on Gerardo’s behalf. How can humanity progress, when it has even young people with such rigid views? Fortunately, a lot of their fellow millennials, are more awake.

[@soude85]

@@BG-ig6fdThe younger one is definitely not a Millennial! The older one barely makes the cut.

[@pong320]

Gerardo is the Best!

[@haydenbutler2223]

I feel like i just watched a conversation between my 20 year old self and where I aspire to be in 10-15 years. I also feel like John was much more informed and knowledgeable about the current state of Mormonism instead of just leaning into something he feels called to do. I am grateful for everything the church gave me but am grateful every day for my decision to step away.

[@NorthendVanguard]

John is literally deceitful. He knows better and still keeps lying. That's where you want to be in 10-15 years?

[@blondandsmart1]

I'm with you dude. John is so educated and empathetic. Smart, kind, inclusive, understanding, so many things that I aspire to be too. He's the pioneer that so many of us have needed (and that so many of the future will need).

[@NorthendVanguard]

@@blondandsmart1 You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[@blondandsmart1]

@@NorthendVanguard in your comment it seemed like you were saying you were like Hayden and Jackson when you were 20, and you would like to be like John when you're 30-35. I was just agreeing with you. The boys didn't seem to know the past church history or the current church policies/doctrine very well (and i'm comparing. Comparing to my family, friends, extended family..etc. John himself quoted the 12th article of faith to them when they were trying to remember it), but they also seemed easily defensive and judgmental. Whereas i was very impressed with John, his questions, his replies, how he talked to those he was interviewing, and how he would share his opinion in general (he was calm, gave the guys a choice on if they wanted to answer or not, and his points were based on facts/real quotes so he always seems informed and educated). I thought i was agreeing with you, but obviously i misunderstood. I was just saying i related (i thought) and that i think John is a good guy.

[@bdshafer]

​@@NorthendVanguardyou are deceitful.

[@tuanis1]

3:00:00 "I was more faithful than you bros" hit hard. Thanks for standing up for yourselves and for us.

[@jemam.2145]

Easily the best part. It stands up for those of us who were "exact obedience" Mormons in every moment of life and found ourselves having to eventually choose between staying or leaving something that was 100% everything to us, but turns out was not actually true. Now living with our whole communities believing we are lazy, sinners, and that is why we left. When actually, it was because we cared too much about seeking truth, like we were taught

[@lynaeriding]

100%. I relate to this sooo deeply.

[@dnlhrrng]

I think these boys see their privilege as being the same as their faithfulness, when there really is little real connection. Like wealthy people who see their wealth as evidence of their personal virtues.

[@TexasTornado66]

I made lists to make sure I was a perfect Mormon. As did many of us who tried hard to make it work for us.

[@treenbotulousprime]

This was my favorite moment 10000000000000%!!!!!!! 🫳🏼🎤💥

[@mizzi369]

Thank you John and Gerardo for your Intelligence , your profound knowledge , your eloquence, your patience and love. And for suffering through this episode! Thank you for all you do, love you guys ❤

[@rydiddy6233]

Telling John Dehlin that he knows nothing about Mormonism is incredibly ignorant.

[@matthewlake1910]

Plus arrogant!

[@BaBumz]

Thank you for telling everyone you are ignorant about the church

[@rydiddy6233]

@@matthewlake1910 it reminded me of the time Brandon Flowers told Richard Dawkins to do his research. Extreme arrogance that I didn’t think could ever be paralleled, but these two brothers came together and managed to do it.

[@PatriciaTennery]

This is why John allows and encourages different opinions.

[@PatriciaTennery]

@@matthewlake1910 They need to visit Navou and truely study J Smith.

[@spenceculpepper4172]

Best part (in my humble opinion) was 4:41:20ish where John basically says you have the church you have today (with so many lies now exposed) because of ME! Amen John!

[@jacobopstad5483]

If past prophets could have been wrong about stuff, then current prophets could be wrong about stuff.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Amen

[@TheSandyStone]

and if past and current prophets could be wrong, REALLY OLD prophets could be wrong too! (granted most of them likely didn't exist). "The roots" are all "branches" as he says.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@jacobopstad5483 no room for error when they claim direct communication with the king of kolob

[@humanbeing5396]

Yup. Simple as that.

[@echomountain3370]

Past prophets were never wrong when they spoke as prophets.

[@annaclark5196]

I just want to come here and corroborate John Dehlin's point that he doesn't tell people to leave the church. He was my therapist in 2014 and he helped me make the decision for myself and I actually stayed in the church for 7 more years after that. He empowers people to choose joy.

[@annaclark5196]

It should be noted that I deliberately went to him for help in my faith crisis.

[@clarkb5137]

@@annaclark5196 that's awesome

[@juliefox1743]

A lot of people choose to ignore his whole "Stay LDS" thing. It's a lot easier to villify him.

[@annaclark5196]

@@juliefox1743 Very true. I stayed alive when I found that that website existed!

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

John's gotten a lot more cynical in those 10 years

[@elisealimones1233]

The arrogance, feeling superior, and immense disdain for the "other" is palpable coming from these two boys. When I think of Christ's love, grace, and mercy, I do not connect these two boys with being Christ like. I pray they open their hearts and minds to the lived experiences of others. Thank you, John and Gerardo, for showing these two boys an example of Christ like behavior❤

[@MaryPlaysPiano]

Hear hear

[@marlena98148]

Their arrogance is THICK!

[@mokoloki]

in other words they're ideal Apostle material

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@elisealimones1233 The arrogance is a front for their own insecurities.

[@co-op-joe]

The arrogance is a stand of being defensive to protect and dismantle evidence thst attacks your beliefs. They did not go there to have a logical conversation, they were there to take on the "apostate" channel that are taking mormons out of the church. Typical of young men, sadly sounded a lot like me 24 years ago... defending the church at all cost because of my strong feelings from the church. But dont worry boys, life runs amok and you will see you have been alone all along...

[@IvoneteMascara-nx6wz]

These boys are a perfect example of self-righteousness and “close friendship” with a superior being - which makes them superior in their myopic view… John, you’re a hero!!!!! They don’t even know that their pride is astronomical - and oh so contrary to their belief in a Christ-like attitude… Kudos to you John for you professionalism and endless patience!!!!!

[@jaromchristensen5598]

“Does that make sense?” These dudes keep talking in that “missionary tone” that I used to unintentionally use in lessons. It’s so cringy now to see it from the outside perspective. It’s that sort of “I’ve got the truths of life figured out and I just need to help your misguided mind to understand” tone with zero room for compromise or seeking to comprehend the other perspective.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

💯

[@Acousticfolkcovers]

It’s gross now

[@nicoleharalson4929]

I talked like that on my mission too.

[@sweetdestiny5301]

it’s the “i don’t have my own beliefs and am parroting what i’ve heard” voice. the “we all talk and sound the same because we’re in a cult” voice

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@jaromchristensen5598 that boy should have stayed with his child in NICU. Pretty sick to be selling a cult while your newborn is in NICU.

[@nickshay11]

This was a perfect example of what I see in my own experience. These two young, white, cisgender Mormon males came to John not to listen and understand him but to come and prove him wrong. Active Mormons don’t want to listen and understand those leaving the church, they want to prove them wrong. These two essentially invalidated John and others’ experience the entire show. John you did an absolute amazing job listening to them and supporting them. But most importantly you stood up for yourself and our LGBTQ+ families. Thank you.

[@ruthie8872]

To be completely fair, I find far too few people come to listen and understand in any conversation. It's a societal problem broadly, well outside of Mormonism or any faith.

[@essentiallyemily2214]

@@ruthie8872that’s true. I do think the Mormon superiority complex really shines it’s light here. They are taught from young to ignore any source that’s not the prophet

[@sarahbrome5564]

Yep. They came into it angry, and tried to hide it.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@essentiallyemily2214 LDS breeds elitism. I remember hearing being born into LDS means you must have been on the right side in the war in heaven. Then there was the bizarre teaching about skin color and that war as well. I know they disavowed it now but it was taught in the past. Zero room for error when you claim in direct contact with the big G.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@GldnClaw 🤮🤣😂🤮🤣😂

[@user-mh5qg5jb7d]

It blows my mind how little active mormons know about their own church, the true history, and how many times their "restored" doctrine has been continually changed.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@user-mh5qg5jb7d same like the temple ceremonies that were to be the same forever and ever thus saith the statically dynamic king of kolob

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@user-mh5qg5jb7d the same forever and ever 🤣

[@echomountain3370]

True! Non Mormon Christians and ex Mormons know more than they do.

[@nausigns]

I had little idea about the opposite side and I tried to dodge looking into the history and the what they call "anti-Mormon" literature and arguments. I decided to dive in and bought all the books I could get my hands on. I think I took a 2 year journey to look at all the opposite views of the LDS church and the early history of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. This was the best thing I have done and I continue to look at all points of views and I have come out better for it. Today, I am a stronger believer of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Church or Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I do think more should look into it and it has a different affect in each one of us. These You tube channels are actually a strength to me and should be to anyone looking to get more out of it. I understand your thoughts about we should know more. I believe one should look at both sides, there are a lot of great apologists and good information on both sides. Knowing nothing and being a member of the LDS church is fine, know in depth of both sides is also great. But, knowing only one side, the critics, is not good either.

[@pong320]

It is actually not surprising because the ones that look into it and then apply some basic critical thinking are now what we call former Mormons. Or they are PIMO.

[@janedanced5117]

I don’t care what these brothers do, it’s their lives and I think their money maker right now. However, I believe extreme religion and military can be a toxic mix. I sure could feel some pretty heavy stuff coming from them, especially blondie, the younger, as they shook their heads and treated John as if he didn’t know shiz from shine. John, as always and probably forever more, you’re my man, I understand every single word you said and appreciate every minute that you and Gerardo gave to this episode. You are a hero to many, so many of us love you and Gerardo too. John, you are extremely smart!! Thank you!!

[@brieannaleigh2117]

Totally! Former military wife (for over a decade and I’d never have wanted my husband/father in a unit with this dynamic). Holy dysfunction w cosplaying the Bible and using defending safety of others due to religion 🤯. Mind blowing. They’re not captain Moroni. The non stop Father/husband talk “man I want to be”-stuff. Somethin’ from their dad is deeply engrained regarding failure of grandparent.

[@josephwiley4750]

Lost what very little respect I had for these young boys when they told John he knows nothing because he hadn’t read the Book of Mormon in a while.

[@dallinbrown8162]

At that point in the conversation they’re just reaching for anything 😂. They spent two hours talking themselves up only to take a beating from John for an hour. They had very very few even decent responses.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@josephwiley4750 the world's most correctED book 🤣

[@LifeAfterBelief]

Exactly! The logic is flawed. When was the last time these guys have read the Koran? So, they can’t say it’s not from god???

[@MarilynMorton]

Too much "you" and "does that make sense" when attacking JD. These boys cherry picked the scriptures often contradicting themselves.

[@impossibleeddie17]

As the church changes these guys are going to end up starting their own off-shoot. And it’s gonna be bad.

[@jaycat99]

John, your patience through this should automatically put you in the celestial kingdom. kudos to you

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Hayden Paul's natural man was a real asshole throughout the interview.

[@ransonmcconahay5275]

Honestly

[@chrisanntoelupe984]

Geraldo, I am so sorry you had to sit through that. As a mom of a gay son and trans daughter, my stomach was churning from the lack of empathy and understanding of these men pretending to represent God. I am proud of you for removing yourself. You are an amazing person, and deserve all the love and happiness. Thank you John for speaking to the hurt and devastation the church has caused the LGBTQ community. The fact these guys can’t see the correlation between the treatment of Blacks in the church and the treatment of LGBTQ people is astounding.

[@annekimberling2825]

👏

[@elencosta4659]

I am a mom of two LGBT children too, like you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.❤

[@jahadden1]

It is very hard for people who are "fully in" to see the obvious parallel between temple/priesthood restrictions by race and the restrictions against LGBTQIA people. Was God racist or were prophets? Is God homophobic or are prophets? It is interesting that we generally fix these unchristlike "doctrines" by downgrading them to "policies" 30 years after the rest of society. It sure would be nice if inspired prophets could see and remove racism and homophobia in the church 30 years ahead of the rest of society...

[@Robert-rw5lm]

The damage the LGBT community is purely from the LGBT community. Why do you think pedophilia is such a stereotype? The hint is that it has a layer of truth

[@Thriving2015]

Gerardo is a host and as a professional, should have stuck it out there. I agree they made pompous statements, but they "know not what they sayeth" and Gerardo needs to lean in and push through when someone agrees to come on the show. They shared their opinion, which Gerardo already knew before they came on the show. What's the difference when they actually say what Gerardo already knew about them. You can't just walk out of an interivew when someone says something as a personal belief that offends. It's a podcast after all. Sure their comments were obtuse, but have a conversation about it. I don't think these two guys were making same comments that Rod Meldrum made back when he was on the show.

[@googleuser1522]

To these two boys, please please please keep doing what you’re doing. Podcasts, KZbin channel, tik tok, whatever you gotta do to get your message and tone out there, please broadcast far and wide. Your tone, arrogance and message will drive more people away from Mormonism than John ever would. Keep up the great work!!

[@andreatimmers1720]

Agreed!

[@joannamarie_]

lol love this!

[@yoshuaschwenke413]

I love this comment ahaha

[@jpr9863]

Yep, keep "repping" the church, boys! Doin' a fine job!

[@dustierodgers2452]

💯💥

[@VoteLeslieKnope]

I listened to the entire (almost 6 hours!) live and I really tried to do so with an open mind toward them. However, their religious arrogance was hard to deal with. They expect everyone should believe as they do. No room for interpretation. The fact that both John and Gerardo were unbelievably patient and kind spoke volumes. I will never understand how spitting scriptures at non-believers is supposed to magically make them believe.

[@montyg6002]

I agree the only interpretation they are interested is in their “conceptualization” of religion regardless of the facts presented.

[@ericreed4535]

The irony that the Christlike behaviour wasn't from them was lost on them. Happy to be away from the "arrogance of ignorance".

[@Sarahwithanh444]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@BG-ig6fd]

@@ericreed4535Me too. Happy to be away from it.

[@LoraleeArmstrongNunley]

They have their beliefs and i honor them for that. Even though i don’t believe in the church a more i do believe in my creator.

[@thegigisup6]

Thank you John and Gerardo for reminding me how grateful I am that I’ve left the complete insanity of Mormonism after 47 years ❤

[@martha-meg]

Happy for you!!! 🎉🎉🎉

[@raindance1962]

Same here I left after 48 years after being a TBM How I believed that is beyond me

[@debbiebuttars5598]

Same. Life is so much better out of that insanity. ❤

[@paleoartdigital1012]

You guys leave your faith in God and put it on this men , nothing to celebrate there ,

[@AMFibers]

As an attorney, the most interesting depositions are those where the witness dances around questions instead of answering them. If someone won't answer the question, that means you've asked the right question and it's time to dig in. Eventually, they either answer the question or have danced around it so much that they look ridiculous. These guys are exactly that kind of witness. The reason they took so long to answer questions about queer people is because they know their views are unpopular. They know that saying their views with their whole chest will make them, and the church, look bad - which is the opposite of what they want. Props to John and Geraldo for pushing these two, but man I would've loved to question them.

[@paulmartinezsd]

This. I'm no attorney, but my world is a world of litigation and I love a good deposition and cross-examination. I represented myself recently and learned intuitively that obfuscation and nonresponsive answers mean you're on the right track.

[@kayhowell9633]

WOW. What a couple of goof balls. I am in awe of you John. You kept your cool - I would not have been so cool. Bravo!

[@DavidTaylor-n1z]

Mormons have a thing called "gaslighting" it is used to pass off otherwise serious things as jokes thereby an attempt to avoid being called a jerk. On church property a "mormon" kept saying he saw me waking down the street smoking a cigarette. I've never lit up a cigarette in my life. Something like that is what turns gasighting into a bodfaced lie.

[@spenceredford4403]

Put this one in the Hall of Fame. This was a masterclass in good faith discussion from one side and arrogant defiance on the other. Well done John and Gerardo!

[@whitneyannethomas]

I predict one day these brothers will look back on this discussion and cringe.

[@timmiestabrnak]

They were acting like bratty high school bullies. It was mind blowing to listen to!

[@32wellss]

It's a scary thing John Dhelin is. Smooth, calm collected, for the most part. Plays the victim card. You think Satan was able to convince a third of the hosts of heaven to give up their chance at eternal progression by being abrasive? Nope. He most likely was the nice guy. Cool under pressure. Very knowledgeable. Kind. Preached tolerance. "Not one soul will be lost!", he said. Speaking 99% truth with 1% falsehood. Yep, John giving us a masterclass in the image of his God

[@edutechnic9621]

Meh every faith has this elevated emotion experience and calls it truth

[@blanca2721]

@@32wellssI see how reason and knowledge can be so scary to someone like you. Tolerance and kindness being evil tools to trick someone into what exactly? Also, I recommend looking into the idea of Satan and how that idea evolved. Dan Maclellan gives a great summation of this and is also a Mormon. Maybe start there.

[@Aviel-o3p]

I remember when I was a Mormon thinking that my testimony was really impacting others but when you leave the church you realize the testimonies mostly sound the same and rarely influence those outside the church. 99.99% of the world is just like, "Why do you look like a deer in the headlights?"

[@CyborgCoder]

Yeah. I can relate. I remember being told that when all else fails just bear your testimony. Now when I see believing Mormons using that strategy it just comes across as extremely ignorant and dismissive. Like they didn't really try to understand where the other person is coming from and just want to push their own beliefs without addressing any legitimate questions.

[@joshcc1974]

well said!

[@cs2388]

@@CyborgCoderMormonism 101, 100% confidence, 0% evidence

[@BT-km2mm]

To be fair not many believed Christ either when he bore the truth in his time, or any of his servants he sent fourth to testify of the truth. It’s a common pattern according to the scriptures.

[@lifeaccordingtotheo9643]

Testimony bearing makes people look and sound crazy. They feel special and powerful and look dumb and decieved. Usually a point where people realize that trying to reason with someone like this wont work.

[@cameronbrown5134]

Man that ending was wild john. I know you got a little emotionally heated but at least you were respectful. Anytime you tried to find common ground, you were flat out denied. I feel like they saw it as a concession and weakness if they agreed with your final point about respectively fighting for good in or out of the church. They got really condescending and it ruined what would have be a fine episode otherwise. Good on you for the good wrap up. Much love.❤️

[@alyssabennett7088]

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking

[@SaffronHammer]

I feel as if they mirror exactly what the church is and has always been. They are the church and its core teachings personified. Take a little bit of Jesus bling and a huge helping of JS , combine with gaslighting, obfuscation , self-righteous condescension & outright dishonesty = LDS church

[@sophiej1987]

100%. It sucks to see what started and could’ve been such an awesome productive conversation go downhill like that.

[@mmepresidente]

This an example of the difference in morality that John mentioned. I’m sure they don’t drink coffee but they were unable to show the slightest bit of empathy and humility.

[@Shimanchu2006]

Agree. At many parts they were super condescending and kinda dumb saying stuff like "Do you read the Book of Mormon?" or "You don't know what your talking about" or stuff like "people get what they want", insinuating that people who can't get into the celestial kingdom (because they're living their authentic life as a gay person for example), just didn't really want to get into the celestial kingdom. Super insulting and insensitive.

[@trishazmd4941]

John's amazing interviewing skills are on full display in this episode. His ability to reassure these boys about questions he was asking they were clearly defensive about was brilliant. Very diplomatic and good natured. Was hard for me to watch at times, but I really enjoyed the different perspectives. I left the church 10 years ago and there were a few moments that made clear to me why/how people choose to stay despite the evidence, and left me feeling positive about that. Great episode.

[@gregcooper9753]

These boys need to listen to this in 10 years from now

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@gregcooper9753 CPS needs to listen to this.

[@BryanGurney]

They won't even listen to this 1 week from now.

[@kathrynosullivan2743]

“Boys” is the correct term. I can see their incomplete pre-frontal cortexes.

[@HotRaptor]

@@gregcooper9753 it’s like the story that Tal Bachman giving Bon Jovi a BoM! 🤣

[@hannahlewis5333]

...but live outside Mormonville Bubble and in Reality where they're the only Mormon around for 20+ miles.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

John, you are amazing. That was so well done. You and Geraldo were so eloquent and you tried your best to state the truth and still extend an olive branch. HUGE props and respect!!!

[@jeff-fah-fah]

When Hayden doesn't have an answer to one of John's questions, he tries to turn the question back on John.

[@sweetdestiny5301]

and the little blonde one seems to never have an answer outside of agreeing with what the other says. no wonder he’s never had a faith crisis. he’s never once thought for himself

[@MarilynMorton]

@@sweetdestiny5301nailed it

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@jeff-fah-fah This is the common LDS response when there is no logic that can be used to refute the argument. Also very deceptive on their part.

[@PadawansGuideToTheGalaxy]

John is taking the high road by actually answering, but it’s like the two interviewees forgot they were the ones supposed to be telling their story… that stood out to me immediately!

[@dbroomfield8644]

I know you are probably bias but John did that ALOT!

[@janicaribeiro6350]

I have watched Mormon stories for years, never Mormon and non American . I have never seen less Christian people than these two on the podcast . John and Gerardo are gentlemen ❤️

[@Brossentia]

"You can look at the afterbirth, but don't throw out the baby" is a sentence I never want to hear again in my life. With that said, I'm one of those gay kids who only survived because one person gave me hope. Wasn't John, but I know he's helped others. Love all of you at the podcast

[@gd8205]

Service members CAN speak about politics as long as not in uniform and not speaking on behalf of the government. Just say you don’t want to comment instead of blaming your reserve job

[@ftgjt21]

That was a 6 hour demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They know very little, but think they know a lot...but only because they know very little.

[@NuclearTurtle19]

I was having the same thought. Especially the anecdote about not having finished the BoM before entering the MTC 🤦🏼‍♂️ Then for a later argument to be that John D doesn’t know what he’s talking about in regard to the BoM. The arrogance is strong.

[@dreamsenvoy]

Uh oh Don’t say anything even remotely scientific to the boys. That makes baby Jesus and Lord Palpatine of Vatican Lake City displeased

[@xxxgabaxxx]

And also about the world. They live in a bubble

[@tgrogan6049]

Check out my post of this stream of the "scholars" that have revolutionized "Book of Mormon Studies" they are lecturing John about. A complete and utter joke.

[@janetbucknell592]

In addition to the fine Dunning-Kruger Effect, there is this meaningful vocabulary word: Ultracrepidarian This is a person who gives their opinions on things they know NOTHING about!!!

[@laurenhelms1161]

I have a mind blowing amount of second hand embarrassment for these two young men. I cannot imagine having this much confidence and so little information.

[@phillisob]

And they think they nailed it. They think they got John all worked up, when they really didn't accomplish much of anything. Mormon Stories has had active members who presented compelling, thoughtful arguments; these two didn't. They danced around questions.

[@alextemus]

Poor guys. I think they'll figure it out in a few years

[@phillisob]

@@alextemus Possibly when Hayden's kids start "worthiness interviews." I can put up with things endlessly when I'm the one inconvenienced or even hurt. When it's my kids? Watch out, cause Mama Bear is ON THE WAY!!

[@christinestclair3131]

I came on here to say exactly the same, so much second-hand embarrassment.

[@mguggaman]

"I cannot imagine having this much confidence and so little information." Yeah, I think you can more than imagine it.

[@kamalastromwall9275]

So if my husband cheats on me I should ignore the hour he did that and think about all the hours he hasn't cheated. That's a crazy "conceptualization"

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ well said

[@Amularessa]

Best comment ever

[@lindsaydahl3069]

If you’re going to stay in the marriage and try to fix it, are you going to have it be all you ever talk about? The bad he did? If Dehlin wants to make the church better, he needs to stop focusing on only the bad.

[@bernice_anders]

​@@lindsaydahl3069 yes. He needs to constantly remind his wife he will never cheat again

[@lindsaydahl3069]

@@bernice_anders seriously? Yes, that’s all they’ll ever talk about? Having something be talked about constantly or consistently is different than having it be ALL you talk about. Dehlin could consistently talk about the bad without having it be ALL he talks about.

[@mindiwestley3]

Gerardo you are also so wise and well spoken and heart filled . Keep doing the hard work we love you ❤🎉🎉

[@caroljoyfordham]

“When was the last time you read the BOM? You’re talking about something you know nothing about.” This is where they lost all credibility in this debate. It’s a different generation of Mormon’s. They have no clue.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I couldn't believe it when they said that. Like huh???????

[@user-mp9su4su5q]

Has the book changed since John read it last?

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@user-mp9su4su5q idk, was white and delightsome still in there last time 🤣🤮🤣🤮🤣🤮? The doctrine and the interpretation of the quilted together book has been statically dynamic 🤣

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@user-mp9su4su5q was white and delightsome already removed last time?

[@Jasondirt]

That's like going to a doctor and saying "whet was the last time you read your 1st year of med school textbook, you can't be a doctor unless you re-read every book continuously "

[@jilliansorah9770]

"I was more faithful than you two!" I HOLLERED when I heard that! 😂I love hearing John defend himself - and rightfully so!

[@heatherstewart4084]

Yes!!! One of the best moments ever!

[@Jonny-wt3rg]

Was? Not anymore?

[@Hi-jw7oq]

Whose to say that's true though? I will let God decide

[@Katydid-v8n]

These sorts of men are why abuse is perpetuated in the Mormon church towards women (and this kind of abuse is endemic in Utah). The entitled belief that they are always right and others who disagree with them are "bad people" creates a God-complex that helps them feel entitled to abuse those they deem beneath them. I can't think of any belief or ideology further from the teachings of Christ. Great job, John. This was painful and triggering to listen to, but it was a very important episode, IMO.

[@debbiebuttars5598]

@@Katydid-v8n Yes. So much arrogance and superiority.

[@Jerome616]

That does not make them wife beaters… wtf

[@MsKayRay]

​You don't have to hit a woman to abuse her. There is a ton of mental and emotional abuse that comes with this kind of mentality ​@@Jerome616

[@jasonjablonski3252]

If you edit out the word "conceptualization," this episode is 30 minutes long. John, you are a kind, patient man.

[@oddlang687]

haha, that reminds me of the quote from Mark Twain about the Book of Mormon: " 'And it came to pass' was [Joseph Smith's] pet. If he had left that out, his [Book of Mormon] would have been only a pamphlet."

[@treenbotulousprime]

😂😂😂😂

[@woolhatkatie]

At one point, I thought they would ask "but what does the word 'the' mean? If we can't agree on that, there's no point in the conversation."

[@charlesleroq932]

My favourite part is where dark haired guy says "metastasized" instead of "materialized"

[@JameeAndelin]

If this is how they communicate with John and Geraldo, then this is most likely how they are communicating with their wives and children and other people in their lives and it’s so off putting to me. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but based off of how they are treating John and Geraldo vs how John and Geraldo treat them, I’d rather just not see or hear these guys ever again and I willingly choose to have beautiful conversations with John and Geraldo any day.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Amen! For me, the off-putting felt like soft bullying. Don’t listen or try to understand the other person, just twist and deflect, insult and offend. Bully behavior, even if no physical punches were thrown.

[@janicaribeiro6350]

I was thinking the same thing . There is a meaness about them

[@jennyyergensen8424]

I was totally thinking about that. Hopefully their wives never disagree with them but probably will as the experience in the church is totally different as a woman.

[@queennzinga5988]

You can tell the blond hair blue eyes is sadistic low key narcissistic

[@FATMEESTER]

John’s “Testimony” 5:26:55 is really quite special. I felt “the Spirit”. Thank you for helping me understand what I feel towards the church now that I’ve left.

[@sarahbrome5564]

I kinda feel bad for these young men. They opened the door to questioning, but I don’t think they were prepared for it. They’re angry because someone is pushing their bubble, and that’s scary.

[@markkrispin6944]

So true

[@bfisher2391]

I don’t feel bad for them. Within the first 10 minutes one of them said they had watched “probably 100 hours of Mormon Stories”. If that was true, they would have anticipated John’s points. Plus, they have a podcast themselves and should understand the structure of interviews and being a guest. They made themselves look bad.

[@briantimberlake4174]

“Watched hundreds of hours of Mormon Stories.” He didn’t know that Jon grew up in Katy, Texas….

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yup. He lied.

[@elisamariev]

@@briantimberlake4174 I love that he struggled to name episodes that were memorable for him. He definitely was exaggerating, at best.

[@sweetdestiny5301]

in another part he quotes a part of mormon stories saying it was an instagram reel that went viral. just like how he first claimed to have read the books then later clarifies that he never read them cover to cover, it’s pretty clear he thinks watching a small clip or hearing a quote equates to watching the episode

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@BG-ig6fd the church teaches Satan is the father of all lies. So he must have fathered that lie as well🤣

[@chphotography28]

Should've asked what johns connection to renee zellwegger was.... If you dont know these basic things about john you haven't watched. Even john pokes fun at the fact that these things about him come up A. LOT, lolol.

[@Liz-hr6hf]

John, anyone who watches this, whether they are a believer or not, will be able to see stark difference between you and Gerardo and these two guests. They were condescending, rude, and I literally don’t know how you kept your cool. Mad respect, John and Gerardo.

[@400_billion_suns]

My favorite thing about god is that he answers prayers for missing lizards, but allows innocent children to die in wars.

[@Burningheartcelosia]

And school shootings (in America specifically because kids here are chosen I guess 🤷‍♀️) 😢 😠

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@400_billion_suns kolobian logic 🤣

[@Marellenmac1964]

The idea that god is all powerful and not way too busy to be wasting time helping a kid find his missing pet. These bros are giving so much Mormon entitled white guy energy. But go them if, after the churches recent anti-trans policies have been revealed, they want to go all in and try to tech John Dehlin to be better. The hubris.

[@aadams8419]

As soon as they started that story, I literally thought no way are they going to tell a “I said a prayer and I found my missing…” Story.

[@lukegrant4736]

All part of the plan

[@ash1eygf]

Gerardo, in my imagination I was sitting next you during this harrowing interview. You were incredible. I’m sorry you had to sit through that ordeal but I am grateful to have you willing to do it. Thank you. You are making the world better for my little girl.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@LilMorphineAnnie]

The audacity to tell John he didn't know anything about the Book of Mormon because he hasn't read it cover to cover *recently* (even though he has read it MANY times) was just mind-boggling. These two are the most smug, self-righteous "bros" I've had to hear speak in a while. Kudos to John and Gerardo for keeping it together because I was getting real heated on your behalf lmao

[@theartfuldodger5326]

I was so taken aback when they said that! like, dude bro. to speak his language. don't be so skibbidi ohio. 😂😂😂

[@shches8480]

Right!? How does the recency of one's reading the BOM negate the criticisms of the LDS scriptures? 😂.

[@daegon1985]

John literally helps them remember the 12th article of faith

[@jstinnett80ify]

This is certainly my favorite episode of late. I seriously could have listened to double the conversation between you all. I was sad when Gerardo had to leave as he was a huge contributor to the direction of the conversation. Thank you for your content John and for engaging in the philosophy, it's enjoyable to listen to open and honest conversation and ultimately serves as the progression of mankind's reasoning abilities. Cheers!

[@makinzieviola9057]

When they laughed and sighed when John said only Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is historical and THEN said John doesn't know anything about the Book of Mormon 😭😭😭 this can't be real. My blood is boiling

[@christelwoesthoff1227]

Mine was to!! My heart was pounding so hard!! I was so mad.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@makinzieviola9057 they only laugh out of nervousness because they know he is right

[@co-op-joe]

Arrogance in full display The American exceptionalism and the extreme narcissism of being on the Lord's annointed side...

[@janicaribeiro6350]

I am on a different time zone and losing sleep over it ! How rude are they ??? Pure ignorance !

[@janicaribeiro6350]

@@christelwoesthoff1227me three ! I am livid !

[@Rightwing17]

Guys like this will never understand the damage they do to the church during interviews like these until the finally leave the church, look back, and see just how crazy what they’re saying is.

[@amberonstine1447]

SO TRUE!

[@JAlexanderCurtis]

Yeah I loathed listening to these guys, but also felt a lot of empathy and pity for them, because I remember saying a lot similar b s myself in a past life. I get sick thinking about things I used to say, so I imagine one day they will have the same clarity.

[@ashleymoore5736]

I don’t believe for a second that either of them have listened to hundreds of hours of Mormon stories and then lead with “I prayed to find my lizard and Heavenly Father heard my prayer”.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@ashleymoore5736 king of kolob must be annunaki. I think he feels kinship with the lizard 🤣

[@SacaPuuntas]

They were sharing their first spiritual experiences. As an 8 year old kid that would make sense.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@SacaPuuntas they are several times 8 years old. What traumatized them so badly that they resort to childish tales???

[@SacaPuuntas]

@@monyetgoblog7038 Again, they were talking about their childhood and early spiritual experiences. This was one they remembered. They aren’t basing their whole belief system off of the lizard story🤣

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@SacaPuuntas they are super immature. That was my point. A common thread with LDS. My guess is cult trauma caused that immaturity where a grown adult would tell such an immature story.

[@martha-meg]

5:39:50 - John describing how he is always trying to be a better person, and asked them, “do you know that I am always trying to improve… for my wife… etc?” Jackson responds: “I know now” How condescending of Jackson. It just shows that they truly do not see empathy as a key component to life.

[@Sarahwithanh444]

John and Gerardo, you managed yourselves sooo well during this interview. The interviewees screamed arrogance, self righteousness and disrespect the entire time. They call themselves Christian and behave the exact opposite.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians behave this way.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes

[@kptown1]

As a former resident of UT (non Mormon) that was how I experienced MANY of the young men.

[@nohippietruckingandtransportat]

These guys did more than the host ever has to push people away from the Mormon faith.. I'm not Mormon and these 2 made me want to join, just to get the satisfaction of leaving

[@pong320]

You can't ever leave...

[@nohippietruckingandtransportat]

@@pong320 lol

[@pendrakedcm]

These boys show a prime example of listening to respond. They don’t see the ridiculousness of their own statements because they focus so hard on telling John they’re right. I respect John so much for how well he listens to understand, and proceeds to successfully make point after point!

[@MrsPrissNTexas]

Well said!

[@guymcdude5634]

towards the end the constant "mhmm mhmmm mhmmmm mhmmm mhmmm mhhhhm" while john was talking was grating. I couldn't finish. but this is the problem with debates, the debate is not to convince your interlocutor, but the audience. keep up the good work john we need more shows like this!

[@phoenixflamefeather]

I've never heard this put this way, and I love it. I'll keep it in my mind in intense conversations in the future, thank you!!

[@MaryKayZolezzi]

They were definitely formulating their responses while John was talking. 😠And the blond one just looked pissed off at the end.

[@BellaDigital-p7e]

I agree they are so focused on showing they are right. But I dont think Johns Questions were the best and I did feel he was more aggressive then needed.

[@mrvulls]

I listened because I generally follow both Mormon stories and Stick of Joseph and I’ve liked both podcasts. John- thank you for all of your comments. I’ve never listened to a full episode until now and I felt like you were speaking all the words I’ve ever thought. This was so healing and my heart feels so much better with everything you’ve said. I normally really respect the stick of Joseph brothers, but the way they handled this made me loose so much respect for them

[@glampermeg7254]

As a queer person, what they said about queer folks was extremely difficult to listen to. I, too, believe that we as humans can miss the mark. But calling the love I have, and the gender I am as missing the mark, is extremely offensive and hurtful. I miss the mark when I make mistakes. I miss the mark when I harm others. I miss the mark when I use my religion for hate. I miss the mark when I choose violence over peace. I miss the mark when I lie to cover up things I'm ashamed of. I do not miss the mark by loving. I do not miss the mark by being the gender fluid person I am. The church misses the mark when it teaches that being queer is a sin.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Well said! I’m sorry on behalf of these callous ignoramuses, for offending you. I know they will not apologize to you. Their rhetoric is archaic and barbaric. And a prime example of how the church has always been BEHIND on all important, social progress. It’s sad to hear this kind of mentality from young people. They have been fully indoctrinated.

[@sierramahina9064]

Straight Never Mo here! Sending you love! Your comment was beautiful

[@Atalinay]

Its very easy for them to say that when they already fit the "mark". They need a lesson in walking in someone else's shoes.

[@Catie_Joy]

@@glampermeg7254 So beautifully said! There is no mark missed by living authentically or doing the work of self-acceptance and self-compassion. Marks are missed when we’re unkind, when we assume and project, when we fail to listen, when we discredit others to make ourselves look superior, etc. Cruelty misses the mark. Judgment misses the mark. It’s these brothers who are are missing the mark-not you, not John or Gerardo, not queer people and our allies individually or as a group.

[@MrsPrissNTexas]

👏

[@_derekdownunder]

According to the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) data, the “prevalence of sexual child abuse in Utah is higher than nationally (13.9% or ~1 in 7 vs 11.6% or ~1 in 9).” Several other sources also allude to findings that child sexual abuse is indeed a serious and troubling concern in Utah. -Utah State University research 17 Jan 2024

[@melissaw6427]

As a woman, I hated the baby/birth analogy.

[@emeraldelle6]

As did I as I listened to it at 39 weeks pregnant with my 5th. Like, listen young man…let’s not do this…

[@HaileyClare]

Agreed! And any woman that becomes pregnant and has to deliver a baby but has no idea about the process of delivering the baby, let alone the placenta, is going to be grossed out too. Just because the baby is beautiful, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about the risks, or messiness of it!

[@freelanceknight]

Can someone tag the timestamp of that part for me? Can't find it.

[@laurenjolley390]

Haaaaaaaated!!!!! Calling it gross?? I almost lost it

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@melissaw6427 CPS should be called on that boy who left his child in NICU to do an interview.

[@nello1591]

When i was active, especially as a missionary, I remember being told that whenever you're backed into a corner, give your testimony. In other words, if youre asked a hard question, just say it doesnt matter and you believe regardless. Thats how i felt this whole episode went, when John dropped piece after piece of evidence against the churchs validity, the only answer that was given was it was "branches" or they just talked about Jesus. These two tried so hard to distance themselves what they have the privilege to call branches, where even I, at 30 years old, were taught from childhood were true and important tenants of my faith. Its very easy to be an apologist when all you do is shrug off the hard questions, retrofit whatever works into your view of your religion, and when things get difficult just talk about the atonement. Nothing unique in mormonism is good and nothing good in mormonism is unique.

[@debbiebuttars5598]

Oh yes!

[@SaffronHammer]

Basically this is the Bro version of the No-True-Scotsman fallacy. "You did it wrong, John. You didn't understand the LDS gospel correctly. Sucks to be you."

[@clvsterfvckofwhatthefvck7981]

I was thinking the same thing. There were so many fallacies used in their "arguments" and responses.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@SaffronHammer fallacies from the guys who channel name sounds very phallic 🤣

[@bradensorensen966]

Let us show you we love you by excommunicating a person who will leverage that to show others the true colors of the church… wait, that was stupid.

[@NoteworthyAnalysis]

When examined objectively, it becomes clear that the two brothers are not at fault. JD, on the other hand, exhibits a starkly biased perspective and appears emotionally incapable of approaching the situation with any objectivity-a truly pitiable state. If his training had imparted any valuable lessons, he would recognize that such psychotic negativity narrows one’s perspective. His use of manipulative tactics to lead many unsuspecting individuals along his destructive path only exacerbates the situation, making it all the more unfortunate.

[@SaffronHammer]

@@NoteworthyAnalysis when examined objectively you can see "living the LDS gospel" bears bad fruit: cruelty, condescension, victim-blaming, self-righteousness, dishonesty. When looked at objectively you can see that leaving the Mormon teachings and church and embracing real love, honesty, and respect for all, as John and Gerardo have been able tot do, is a far more loving and mature path.

[@IGaveUpEternalLifeForCoffee]

These two were so rude to John it was unbelievable. Calling him “bro”, telling him it “it would behove” him to read the BOM. Saying that even though John spent more time as a church member than they’ve been alive, John doesn’t know what he’s talking about. That he doesn’t understand the BOM. Getting angry when John brought up problems with the church that they couldn’t answer. They don’t care about all of the people that the church hurt. They ignore all of the terrible things the church has/is doing. They refuse to address it. This was so painful to watch.

[@martha-meg]

And this is why I have ran far far away from the church almost 2 1/2 years ago. Thank god I left it.

[@Jayjays964]

I’m getting frustrated with the word games and diversions. Thank you Gerardo and John for keeping bringing it back to the issue.

[@Sarahwithanh444]

Yes!!! So much word salad, so much deflection 🤯🤯

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes, this is why I gave up discussing important topics with people like this, back in my teens 35 years ago. It is always fruitless and a waste of time/energy. I guess there is something to be said for listening to the ‘opposition’. But these guys didn’t enlighten me on any topic in this episode. Their rhetoric is boring, juvenile, blinded and offensive. Maybe one day they will grow up and realize it. Maybe not.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@Jayjays964 Mormon gaslighting 101.

[@Robert-rw5lm]

@BG-ig6fd and maybe one day you'll mature enough to actually listen

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@Robert-rw5lm look in the mirror and tell yourself that. Also know the only one that can save you is staring back at you. People have been saying Jesus will return any day now for at least 2 thousand years.

[@chuckkv]

They want to stay out of the "branches", but that is where the fruit is at. Even Mormon theology, I think, agrees that "by their fruits ye shall know them". The root is one thing, but Dehlin and others are right to ask, what happens when you follow that through to the result? Dehlin is absolutely accurate when he demonstrates that none of that info was taught or readily available in previous generations. Those who sought it and shared it with fellow Mormons were usually excommunicated or otherwise silenced. There's a 1985 LA Times article, still available today, about the Hoffman salamander letter and Cowdery's history, where the church says, "The church has countered the criticism of Smith by noting that charges of magic in Mormonism’s beginnings were written by unfriendly outsiders." Yesterday's anti-mormon history is today's historical facts. We all stand on the shoulders of painfully excommunicated fact sharers, and others.

[@felipedeoliveira6493]

The church has gotten so much worse in their apologetics than before. Now they just go in circles and don’t answer anything. At least before, they would admit what they believe in… they came across as arrogant know it alls. John is such an example of empathy and of understanding. Huge contrast to those two. ❤

[@rubyray777]

Yes, I'm commenting again. I just finished all of this episode. Dr. Dehlin, you truly are one of the nicest, most patient, and kindest people on this planet. YOU showed them kindness, talked about them in kindness in the face of the major disrespect these two men showed you with their very holier than thou attitudes. You got "heated" for a reason. Gerardo, you too! You both did great work and showed grace on this episode in the face of such disrespect! Wow...I'm still in shock...

[@janicaribeiro6350]

They are not fit to lick John and Gerardo’s boots . Arrogance , defensiveness and superiority complex are words that come to mind .

[@nancyabbott2660]

Listened to the whole podcast… they obviously have been brainwashed. It’s a shame.

[@somes3091]

I'd just like to point out a quick point as a fellow service member: The justification that you are "not supposed to" have public political opinions as a service member is represented inaccurately here. When you are representing one of the armed services in an official capacity or in uniform, you should not express political opinions. This is true and necessary as it prevents an official representative of the US Government from providing support to a specific political candidate. This would be the same as if the military came out as officially Mormon or some other religion. The Government/military has to maintain neutrality toward divisive cultural issues. HOWEVER. These young gents are not interviewing in any kind of official capacity. This is why they can come on and talk about religion. If they were acting in a capacity that did not allow them to express explicit political views, then they would also not be able to express explicit religious views, which they most certainly do in this interview. All of this to dispel the notion that they could not answer the political questions as they said. They could have. They chose not to. Which is fine, but I'd like people to understand the difference. These young men are either uninformed, or being slightly deceptive.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Thank you for this.

[@Coltsmama07]

Deceptive, arrogant and undeveloped frontal cortex

[@bethanicochran4929]

Question for you (as you’ve indicated you’re a service member) if they are indeed in the marine corp, how could one of them go to Mexico for an OUR “secret ops” thing?

[@somes3091]

@@bethanicochran4929 Great question. Totally depends and hard to say. It would depend on their unit, the exact point in time they were trying to go to Mexico, and what they were "legally" there to do. I believe they said they are in the reserves, not active duty. So that removes some restrictions on their movement and how they spend their time. But just going to Mexico is 'usually' not an issue for most service members. The OUR ops have absolutely no official tie to the US Govt as far as I know. So there shouldn't necessarily be a conflict of interest there either. Like I said though, hard to say for sure. Lots of ways it could be allowed, and definitely some scenarios where it wouldn't be. But nothing about it was definitely illegal as far as I can tell.

[@bethanicochran4929]

@@somes3091thank you 👍🏻

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 4:23:28. I agree with John. Having served in three bishoprics in the past I can tell you many stories about faithful LDS church members having struggles of all kinds. This includes addictions, promiscuity, unemployment, disabilities, debt, adultery, mental health, sexual identity, LGBTQ issues, spousal abuse, and incest. Being a member does not exclude you from struggles in life.

[@Ryanbaatar]

New drinking game: take a shot every time the word “conceptualization” is said and you’ll be knocked out in 5 minutes 😂

[@taleajoy1]

So many things about this interview bugged me, but I have too say that their use of the word “conceptualization” was chief among them. I nearly started throwing things near the end after hearing it about a billion times. It’s like, geez, get a new word. I also question the use of it in this context. They want us to believe god is real, but using the word “conceptualization” seems to imply that god is an abstract idea rather than a real being and I feel pretty sure that’s not their view.

[@PadawansGuideToTheGalaxy]

I have one too, take a shot every time Hayden ends a sentence with, “right?” as if disagreeing with him isn’t an option.

[@dannyallen8210]

You are a genius my friend. Lol!!@

[@smrfs]

@@taleajoy1This is it! They keep insisting that certain doctrinal teachings are more abstract than they actually are. I was mentally begging them to just own up to their assertions and say “this is how I understand this (three degrees of glory, atonement of Jesus, prophetic revelation, etc). Not owning up to their own arguments makes them look like fools. Say it with your whole fucking chest boys. Now I get frustrated with John too because he goes on these tangential arguments and it doesn’t help to get any closer to a solidified position. Bless your heart John, still love your work.

[@StefanieAlmeida22]

came here to comment this EXACT thing

[@carmencarlson7913]

They kept saying " does it make sense?" I just want to scream at my screen :"NO! IT DOES NOT!" The Mormonism they were preaching isn't the one I learned for the past 30 years in the Church. It is so bad! The irony of "The philosophy of men mingle with scripture". It's hard to watch. They only see things in their perspective. Thanks John for doing this episode, I bet it's really draining dealing with them.

[@polkadotsandpumpkins4328]

I literally said, “No, it doesn’t!” out loud at one point during one of the many times he said, “Does that make sense?”

[@carmencarlson7913]

@@polkadotsandpumpkins4328 I did too!

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@carmencarlson7913 totally different cult than I remember growing up in the 90s. The openly racist views were openly preached as facts back then. The statically dynamic gospel 🤣

[@Marellenmac1964]

It's so condescending to ask, "Does that make sense?" The arrogance.

[@denisekeeran9883]

and they'd never pauuuuuse after asking that for someone to say, "No, it doesn't." Just plowed right on ahead.

[@Vegas_Glamma]

This interview was so hard to watch but I am so impressed with John and his composure and clarity on questions throughout their interview. He was awesome! Especially when it was assumed he hadn’t read the BOM enough 😂…

[@miker56]

They didn't say he hasn't read it enough, he said he should read it recent if he is talking about it

[@jennypayne5228]

I left the church 13 years ago. When my husband passed away (suicide) I went into a huge learning spree, which led me to my current belief. There was never a need for a savior. We come to earth to learn lessons. If we don't learn the lessons, we are given an opportunity to come back in a new body. The church is very narrow minded to think we can learn everything there is to know in one lifetime and become God. So, I appreciate the interview but I'm so glad for my beliefs outside the small box!

[@Zez88]

I think the scariest thing for me was watching my past self in this. Especially Jackson, the way he looks at the camera when trying to defend himself is exactly how I used to feel. If you could get a picture of someone doing mental gymnastics this was it and I say that knowing 100% that I was the same way. You can see the wheels in his head going into over drive trying to make this work and the result is looking like a deer caught in headlights.

[@Hallahanify]

Dude sounded like he was going to cry.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Yep

[@kptown1]

Wait until he finally awakens to the truth and rewatches himself in camera doing this. It'll feel even worse that the initial attempt at defending the belief.

[@6819rachel]

Believers don't get that we can understand them in a way they cannot understand someone who left. I know you, because I was you. You've never been over here lol.

[@aadams8419]

Sending virtual hugs to Gerardo for having to sit through this. You’re amazing!

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes, but it would have been nice for someone to put them in their place. Society should no longer tolerate hate speech. Their views on LGBTQ+ and Native Americans, is nothing but hate speech.

[@Vetionarian]

@@BG-ig6fd just because you hate what someone says doesn't mean it's hate speech. Grow up. Freedom of speech is a protected right. You're allowed to believe what you want and they are allowed to believe what they want so long as they don't harm others in action. Freedom of speech doesn't mean nobody is allowed to offend someone else with a different point of view.

[@soude85]

@@Vetionarian It is hate speech, there is no way around that fact.

[@skilynnclari]

@@Vetionarian Freedom of speech also means the rest of us are free to tell you it's hate speech and to shut up! :)

[@RyanHawley76]

Seriously. Gerardo is such a good human ❤

[@Slotmassacre]

Telling them the BOM wasn’t historical set them off so bad 5 hours in. That exchange was so good I watched it twice.

[@jayotron]

The absolute hubris of these two really triggered me. I probably would have lost it if they told me “you are talking about something you know nothing about.” John demonstrated so much patience with these two, and that is to be commended.

[@ryaneden1187]

This comment is to Hayden Paul. I was you 3 years ago. In order for me to square the vast problems with nearly every aspect of the Church, I had to: 1) gain a super nuanced belief system in Mormonism (that in reflection was a contradiction in and of itself...it is evident in your inability to directly answer questions but instead jump to mental twisting analogies to attempt pseudo-logic to explain things). I actually now realize the nuanced Church I created in my mind does not exist. The one I created and the real one are very different. You are trying to create a Church that is not and has not been the Church. It's the main area of what you and John kept disagreeing over. I remember the day I finally realized the real Church is not what I hoped and created it to be. The saddest day of my life tbh. I'm sorry to tell you brother but the Church you want to exist doesn't. 2) Become highly arrogant in how I viewed the world. Looking back, it's quite arrogant to believe in Mormonism. It means less than 0.1% of the world is living life the right way. There is no other way to frame that. It's the truth of what Mormonism is. Your arrogance is the only defense you have against John's very good questions. To tell John he can't comment on the BoM is absolutely delusional. But I totally get it. I was in your same spot. I had everything invested in being right about Mormonism. In it being true. So I had massive arrogance to convince anyone as hard as I could that I was right. I finally put away the nuance and my arrogance and asked myself to take a fresh look from a balanced perspective. It was basically immediately evident to me that what I knew all along but wouldn't dare admit...that it's a fraud. The world is full of amazing "Christ-like" people who are and aren't Christian. I no longer believe it has to be the Church or any Church driving us to be good people. And in fact, I can't understand anymore modeling my whole life around anything knowing it's based on fiction. I don't need made up stories to be Christ-like. Nor do my kids. It actually took me having a daughter who is now 12 and actually realizing how different she is treated as a female in the Church vs outside it. It's the first time I had to admit the Church is built for males... specifically white males. And in realizing this is when I took a fair approach to thinking about Mormonism. I'd invite you to do the same.

[@clvsterfvckofwhatthefvck7981]

Well said.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Wonderful and very wise words.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Great comment. 👏🏽

[@SaffronHammer]

@@GldnClaw you're failing .

[@jeff-fah-fah]

Great comment. A random fact that jumped out at me - there are more intersex people in the world than there are Mormons.

[@jonimoore3919]

I am an ex Christian, with 2 dear Mormon friends. I have watched hours of Mormon stories. This one is absolutely breaking my heart. I had to stop watching when they said that living a gay lifestyle is “missing the mark”. Any organization that says it has the one true objective truth is in and of itself untrue/false. John, you nailed when you said that we are all able to choose between right and wrong. It is true freedom to come to a point in life when you live a life of acceptance and love because you can, not because you are following antiquated dogma. I wish these men enlightenment and send them kindness and love.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@jonimoore3919 Don't let the Joe sticks push your buttons. What goes around will come around.

[@clssclbk]

The disrespect these two displayed throughout this episode was hard to stomach. It gave me flashbacks of similar feelings I felt when I was a member of the church. This type of behavior is a large reason why many members find their way out. The ignorance was almost unbelievable.

[@BellaDigital-p7e]

Right. It is triggering. These guys behaviour was terrible.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

It is easier to call a Mormon apostate (ex'd member) either anti-mormon or an enemy of the church than to use rational thinking.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@clssclbk there arguments have no substance. They made fools of themselves. Don't let them push your buttons. That is their goal regardless if they admit it or not. Their plan backfired and they looked like angry immature boys. The child in NICU while doing an interview that could have been rescheduled will come back to bite him.

[@janicaribeiro6350]

I am a nevermormon and not American , I am livid ! I hope John does not go on their show

[@janicaribeiro6350]

Please please don’t go on their podcast , they are not worthy of you

[@heatherstewart4084]

So much egotism and narrow mindedness wrapped up in these two. They embody so much of what I despise about church members. John Dehlin, you are a saint for being so kind and patient. I can’t even finish the episode.

[@blondandsmart1]

I had to watch this episode in pieces 😅. I needed to take breaks from Jackson’s and Hayden’s lack of empathy and unwillingness to answer almost any of John’s questions. They seemed so ready to criticize and so so unwilling to find common ground/be understanding.

[@shadwatson7730]

John, great work at handling these two extremely spiritually immature men. I wanted to punch my screen several times at what they were saying, how they were saying it, and how disrespectful they were being on your show. You made 1000% sense. They made almost zero sense. They get the gold of all gold medals for mental gymnastics. Anyone who wants to prove their religion by their own book, ie. Bible, Book of Mormon, automatically loses. I don't know how they cant see that. It peaked my frustration several times. I would have lost it. Again, kudos to you for hosting them and dealing with that. I served in the same mission at the same time as Hayden. We are the same age and we were brought up in the same church. That being said; I was a "Nephi" growing up, very similar to you. I was raised in a 100% orthodox household and I was taught the EXACT same things you said you were taught growing up. Hayden did not grow up in a different church learning different things, so he cannot say that and neither can his brother. They have twisted it so much in their minds to make it make sense to them, that it makes absolutely no sense to anyone else. Id like them to go have this conversation with president nelson and see how well it goes over for them. They are cafeteria Mormons at best. Its not obvious to them, but they are displaying an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance in this interview. John, you are right about the 3 different ways an orthodox Mormon can handle all this information. They seem to be in the 3rd category. My thought process is very similar, if not identical to yours. I really enjoy listening to you and your podcasts. My "dark night of the soul" has been extremely difficult to go through, and you and your guests have helped me in tremendous ways. Its been 3 years since my initial deconstruction phase started, and it still going in some ways. Thank you so much for what you do and what you have to put up with at times. tbh, from the sounds of what they believe, they seem to be creating their own off-shoot org. It does not sounds like orthodox Mormonism. It sounds very different. It was so painful to listen to at times. The absolute arrogance of these guys. Did anyone else cringe at the "navy seals" analogy? Loved the message of INFORMED CONSENT! RESPECT!

[@ericreed4535]

They were indoctrinated as kids as most were who display significant cognitive dissonance like this. Their arrogance of their ignorance was the only thing impressive about them. I do thank and respect them for their service to the country.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Well said.

[@caroljoyfordham]

AMEN!

[@rachelmae9555]

Thanks for sharing that you were raised in the same church at the same time as then. It made me wonder if they just went to a very progressive church or liberal family cause I’ve heard other young Mormon’s who recently left still say they were raised in a more doctrinal church, but you saying this shows that they’ve made their own thing up even though they were taught what you were taught and what John was taught. It’s annoying that they can’t acknowledge that the wider church is not like that and, as the way it operates, causes harm.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@shadwatson7730 don't let those sons of predition push your buttons. Don't let the cult win.

[@hopejeffcoat1819]

So proud of Gerardo for removing himself. That was the healthiest thing he could have done because these 2 guys had such a sharp and defensive tone. This would have been an awesome interview if they had answered some of the questions. Great job John

[@kristinenelson990]

Oh my....Former LDS here. Thank you, John, for drawing things back to what the restored gospel and Church history actually taught. These young men cannot fathom what it was like to grow up in a church that taught us that all other denominations were an abomination, that we, as LDS should never enter another church, and now they are completely distorting both LDS scripture as well as the Bible to create their own version of Mormonism and interpretation of scripture. This is so far away from biblical Christianity and distorts what the LDS church was founded upon. They are not using reason and rationality as Hayden says. They are twisting things very dangerously. If I were a young LDS person listening, I would not be able to grasp the deeply flawed and dishonest roots of the church. Thank you for continuing to draw the conversation back to this, John and Gerardo. Makes me want to come on Mormon stories!!

[@SaffronHammer]

the foundation of LDS was a polygamous con man--always has been corrupt --always gaslighting, always false.

[@SaffronHammer]

@@GldnClaw meaning?

[@stephaniebrooks3629]

The fact that the one guy is here “debating” John just three days after his wife gave birth while his child is still in the NICU tells me everything I need to know about his character…

[@mindyssticktogether]

He needs to feel right and superior more than be present with his wife and reschedule the interview. I agree. He is childish in speech and in the history of the church and doctrine.

[@MaryPlaysPiano]

Family first! 😶

[@ransonmcconahay5275]

🫣

[@royyaangus2292]

Oh my god when he said “u are talking about something you don’t know anything about” WOW!!!!! The audacity!!!!!

[@BG-ig6fd]

Agreed. Adolescents say things like this. These two young men are 10 years too immature for their age.

[@allzeenamesaretaken]

That made my jaw drop. I’m still in shock he felt confident in saying that. Like WTF?!

[@clvsterfvckofwhatthefvck7981]

As the cool kids are saying these days-my flabber was gasted lol.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@BG-ig6fd trauma stops maturity. Look around at LDS. They are all extremely immature and frequently suffer from anxiety and depression. Might as well consider SSRI drugs the LDS ethonthegen.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@BG-ig6fd Trauma halts maturity

[@aprilshowers21]

I’m sorry but it’s so obvious that THE ONLY reason these guys came on was to promote their own stuff and to try and villainize John and MS… This was the hardest episode I’ve listened to so far and incredibly painful for many of us who feel lied to and marginalized in many many ways. Sending love to John, Gerardo, the MS team, and every other listener who feel frustrated and hurt while listening to this conversation. Your experiences and feelings are valid ❤

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@BG-ig6fd]

Thank you

[@MoreWordsPlease]

​@GldnClaw what kind of person are you imagining when you think of the "swamp of exmos"? I'm a stay-at-home mom of 3, married for 20 years, and I cook, clean, play the piano, dabble in lots of homecrafts and live a very quiet life. I left the church ten years ago and do not believe in any religion. I also have a very beautiful life. My kids and husband and I have a great relationship with each other. Do you think I live in a swamp?

[@aprilshowers21]

@@GldnClaw interesting assumption about exmo’s and their so-called “swamp”. I have a beautiful life focused on my family, running a business, loving others, trying to do no harm, lifting others up, and making decisions from a place of love and education. I value learning and do my best not to perpetuate fear or harm. If this is a swamp, call me Fiona, because I fully and joyfully embrace it 💖👍🏻

[@aprilshowers21]

@@GldnClaw agree to disagree.

[@marendixon8975]

If heaven is full of this condescending, arrogant attitude and such lack of true love and empathy, count me out ✌🏻 The idea of spending eternity in an environment like that is not the selling point they think it is 😂

[@BG-ig6fd]

Amen! I’ve been saying this for decades. If heaven is full of religious people, no thanks.

[@ariane1263]

Same! ✌️

[@Liz-hr6hf]

It would feel like hell

[@jonnelson6572]

@@marendixon8975 I don't think you need to worry.

[@pacemaker6328]

Nah you see, you are proving their point that you will choose to not go to the celestial kingdom. Which they attempted to reframe as a 'different' heaven, not a 'lesser' heaven... even though the heaven of those who don't choose the correct standards doesn't receive the same benefits as the other heaven. Which also contradicts the church's teaching regarding the three degrees of glory.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 4:24:07. This is a common reaction from active LDS church members. There is a sense of disbelief about social problems such as child physical and sexual abuse. I have experienced the same disbelief when I tell members about Utah having one of the highest rates of teen suicide in America. Once you factor in the church's stance on trans issues, gay teens, masturbation, drug use, pornography, and a culture of perfection, it makes sense that the teen suicide rates are so high in Utah. Yet members will challenge the stats, and investigate it themselves.

[@shermannorton8723]

Well, that was uncomfortable... It's embarrassing to realize that not too long ago, I was basically in these guy's shoes. Thanks, John and Gerardo, for an intense and important interview.

[@aBrewster29]

Even a nuanced member would never take these same positions. John’s contrast of their ideology and the McConkie Mormonism of the past shows that these young men, like the Church, are trying to have their cake and eat it too on matters of contradiction.

[@nicolewade160]

Proud of anyone who can admit wrongdoing!!! That’s real growth

[@OhJustCommenting]

“I don’t know, I don’t care.” For people who claim to be curious and read a lot that seems to be the attitude about so many parts of history. It’s chilling to see how cold their attitudes are. Wow John, hearing you raise your voice to say “what happened to ME” got me so emotional. I hope one day they can realise how many people are hurt by the doctrine and are trying to reconcile everything even many years after leaving. We are not trying to be the devil and pull people away from the church. Just trying to make sense of it all and find inner peace. Huh. They are saying God did not create the three levels of heaven…I had to rewind cause I was so shocked. Did I miss this at Sunday school 😂

[@clvsterfvckofwhatthefvck7981]

To me it's exactly like being in love with the IDEA of a person, not the actual person. They seem to be creating an idea of mormon faith and not looking at the cold hard reality of what it, and other religions, are.

[@Ch0c0bsessed]

Yeah, I loved their story of Neoliberal god stumbling onto the three levels of heaven and just shrugging and saying "oh well, nothing I can do about this broken system"

[@PureJadeKid]

I was so pissed when they acted like D&C 76 doesn't say that "Celestial > Terrestrial > Telestial" (not a word by the way 😄) 76 clearly says that Cel = sun, Terr = moon, Tel = stars, varying in glory. Like, it's right there. Obviously Celestial is the best and only a moron would expect us to think this isn't what D&C 76 makes abundantly clear. Grrrr. Felt very dishonest. Gerardo even called them out and said "I taught this on my mission, I know what D&C 76 teaches." Not a good faith conversation sort of moment.

[@suthatheplee2777]

John…please do a post mortem of this podcast…lots of very useful content here that illustrates the gaps between points of view. I think the more this kind of discussion is shown, the better for everyone! Magnificent job maintaining decorum and healthy dialogue! 👍🏼👍🏼

[@annefrost4945]

These young men have not been alive long enough to experience the continual changes the church goes through first hand. As I watched, I got the sense that they had success with their arguments on their missions and in the years since then because they made them with people who also have not experienced the changes and the sense of confusion and betrayal that comes from having the church shift away from you. I am watching them, seeing myself, and mourning for their awakening.

[@christopher3d475]

Wow, that was freaking intense. Dang. As a gay man raised in the church during the 80s, I can say these guys are clueless to the damage it caused some of us.

[@BaBumz]

Thank you for telling everyone you play the victim card

[@joshuaboyle7585]

​@@BaBumz You consider yourself Christian?

[@bearatdusk8013]

​@@BaBumzyou don't get to tell people they're just "playing the victim card" when you're ignorant to what they are a victim of. Educate yourself and learn about the lived experiences of others outside of your bubble.

[@JustAnEarthboundMisfit]

@@BaBumzthank you for playing the cyber-bully card.

[@terryheady]

Well according to these twirps, the new and improved Mormon church has been given greater light and knowledge and all is well now. The 80s were anciet times.

[@chrisanntoelupe984]

I can’t with these guys! 🤦🏼‍♀️ They can’t see past their privilege, and their lack of empathy is sickening.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes, very offensive, for the entire interview.

[@ryangarrard3135]

I hope they can learn and change. It's tough, reaaaally tough

[@madisonrowley7034]

Well said.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@chrisanntoelupe984 Don't let the stick of Joe push your buttons. LDS causes enough trauma. Life is too short to waste getting mad.

[@mguggaman]

privilege lol

[@blondandsmart1]

What John says at the hour 2:42-2:47, was so so SO relatable. My childhood, teenage-hood, and young adulthood I was taught everything he was taught. And I was taught that it was LITERAL , unquestionable, from God through his prophet, truth. And everyone would rather look for a problem with ME or with people who have left the church , instead of looking at the problems that I or other ex-Mormons have found and bring up. Why is there such a fear in questioning the church? Or in letting other's question the church? If the church is so true, then there should be no lie that could destroy that truth.

[@ren8293]

Did anyone else catch that Hayden’s son is two days old, is currently in the NICU, and he was like “he’s fine”. Sir, what do you think NICU means? That’s not exactly a place for healthy babies

[@annekimberling2825]

Wouldn’t want him to be anywhere the nastiness of birth like he was describing. That’s for his wife to deal with apparently?

[@Hallahanify]

He's gotta promote his KZbin channel

[@sierramahina9064]

Soooooo sad for mom and baby that he chose to dedicate 5 hours of his day to talking in circles and trying to overtake the interview. Gross

[@clvsterfvckofwhatthefvck7981]

If he ever wakes up, he'll probably regret this choice.

[@monyetgoblog7038]

@@ren8293 yes 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮. A real WWJD moment for him 🤮🤮🤮

[@HPM503]

This was brutal to get thru. John displayed an incredible level of professionalism and patience with these guys.

[@Garfield-f2b]

right???? I lost count how many times John had to state and restate and restate the same point to try to get an answer from these guys. oooof ya!